{"id":153262,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153262","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13317d5bc30e6f5a98cd6bfa9387d0b459bdc09f7998a2d5a4c1d3fd2c7e8cb69e775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:40:32 - 11:48:59","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T11:48:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:40:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時40分）謝謝主席，我們一樣請工程會主委陳金德主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["黃委員健豪：主委好，恭喜新官上任。今天本席要來就教工程會，最主要很多委員都提到了關於流標、缺工、缺料的問題，我想先分享幾個簡報，從現階段的臺北捷運也好，桃園捷運也好，汐止跟萬大線也好，每一個捷運的興建過程裡面都遇到多次的流標，機捷延伸站甚至歷經了14次流標，才慢慢的終於有標出去；桃園也是一樣5度流標，要延到2031年才能通車。","為什麼會特別提這個呢？因為我想臺中現在也正在努力想要來推動捷運，因為臺中目前只有1條綠線捷運，藍線剛通過綜合規劃，綠線也正在準備送，還有橘線等等，臺中有很多條捷運。我想要就教於主委，未來臺中捷運如果也是這樣多條線的動工，工程會有沒有什麼樣的策略跟方式能夠避免流標情形發生？或是會不會再因為多次流標，現階段講說10年內能通車，會不會因為流標拖到20年？我都已經不知道幾歲的時候才通車，主委對這個問題有沒有解決方案？"],["陳主任委員金德：針對這個我請主管來說明。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["徐處長肇晞：跟委員報告一下，有關捷運工程，確實這幾年各縣市都積極在辦理捷運工程，所以捷運工程的飽和量我們一直有在掌握、有在分析，也希望可以透過一些適度的分包，在預算跟工期上面做更妥適的安排，這些流標原因我們都有做一些整理跟做注意事項通知給各個機關，也會持續來做宣導。"],["黃委員健豪：預算跟工期的確就在逾期答復裡面，我們有整理一下，當然每次工程流標的原因在事後檢討的時候一定是預算不足、工期不實，都會有這些原因出現，包含設計書圖契約不合理，這都是過去很多次的流標案件裡面，我們看到的這些檢討報告都有這些項目。","新官上任，我想要提的問題是，是不是工程會在前期的階段，我想任何地方政府的建設要通過之前，一定都會報到院，讓各單位一起來看一下這個案子合不合理。我想問工程會有沒有機會在這個階段就能夠先出手，而不是等到事後已經確定沒救了，再來說是因為你們當初預算編得不足，工期不實、設計書圖不合理，在前期階段有沒有機會先介入？主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員，我想工程會針對一定規模以上的公建案，在它的可行性研究或是綜合規劃的時候會參與審查，等到核定之後，它的基本設計是由工程會主審，所以當工程會主審這個基本設計的時候，就會瞭解它相關的問題，包括減碳、包括預算的概估等等，所以這部分工程會在這個階段就有著墨的空間。","另外就是在招審決，標案在標的時候，如果需要工程會協助，工程會也一定會對各機關提供相關的意見。"],["黃委員健豪：除了提供意見之外，在具體的作法上面，我當然知道前期會有很多單位參與，我想問的是工程會有沒有可能……因為你看在預算不足、工期的問題，因為只要預算不足導致……因為現在其實最核心的問題是缺工、缺料，在缺工、缺料這件事情上，工程會有沒有機會去協調，包含勞動部或其他部會一起來面對缺工的問題？因為缺工問題沒有解決的話，後續預算不足、工期不實還是會持續發生，因為預算不足跟工期不實在某種程度上，這兩件事情是互為因果啦！如果人不夠，蓋的就是慢，後續物價上漲又漲上來，你預算當然不足嘛！所以想問工程會在這件事情上面的角色，有沒有機會去協調勞動部解決缺工的問題？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員，關於整個營建或相關的公建案的缺工，工程會的角色是可以針對這些個案，不管是機關或者是相關業者提出需求的時候，工程會是受行政院委託來審查這個需求是否合理，尤其是超出勞動部一些引進移工比例的時候，我們可以專案來核定。","所以工程會在各個案缺移工的部分，工程會是可以扮演也算積極的角色來協助缺工的問題，不過這個已經標出去了，在進行中，至於整體缺工的部分，我們想我們會找機會跟勞動部來共同瞭解，或是相關機關來瞭解，是不是有整體引進的法規或者是必要。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委，等於也是有具體答復了，其實的確，如果開工之後缺工，我也感謝工程會去幫忙爭取，除了民間的勞工之外，其實公部門也有一個相關的問題，以我們交通委員會自己內部這幾個單位來講，像鐵道局，報紙上有刊載，就是土木職系的缺額，這幾年下來有時候高達兩成、三成，或是開出了缺，甚至沒有人來填報，當然這跟薪資有關係，因為公部門的薪資比不上業界，因為最近這幾年房地產很興盛，所以業界的薪水比公部門還高，面對公部門連相關土木職系都會缺工的情況下，工程會有沒有什麼解決方案出來？"],["陳主任委員金德：請同仁來回答。"],["羅主任秘書天健：就委員這個問題，實際上我們有在跟考選部、銓敘部討論，其中包括改善公職人員的環境，讓公職人員比較瞭解工作的內容，第二個部分是有關於薪資的調整，這個部分也有在跟考試院及人事行政總處研議當中。"],["黃委員健豪：研議多久了？"],["羅主任秘書天健：這個從去年下半年就有開始在討論。"],["黃委員健豪：你們預計什麼時候會有解決的方案出來？"],["羅主任秘書天健：跟委員報告，有關於預計解決的方案部分，因為涉及到整個土木職系人員的待遇調整，這個部分我們必須要再跟主管機關的人事行政總處確認。"],["黃委員健豪：好，因為土木職系的公務人員的就業風險、工作環境其實講白了，他的風險蠻高的，不管他的工作環境，還是他的法律問題，我覺得土木職系的確是公務人員裡面相對比較辛苦的，所以這部分除了民間缺工之外，我也希望工程會要注意到，連公部門自己的專業人才也在缺工，我想這個對未來的公共安全或對於工程設計也都會有影響。","最後一個問題，在工程會這邊，既然我們都知道缺工、缺料，後面預算還有物價不斷上漲，我們希望未來在審核的時候，包括不管是中央政府也好，或地方政府也好，都能夠保留一筆預算來面對工期延宕也好，或是物價上漲也好，所帶來經費增加的部分是能夠先預留的，而不是說……因為有時候工程一延宕，延個5年、延個10年，你當初算的時候的物價跟那時候物價一定不一樣嘛！所以在預算裡面，物價的調整是不是能夠有機會先保留起來？主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，我想有些重大規模的公共設施，它執行預算本來就有分年度、有總額，所以比方在下年度或次年度，它是有機會再來調整的。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝！黃健豪委員發言完畢。現在請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","現在請王美惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":306,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-14","speakers":["李昆澤","林沛祥","林俊憲","陳素月","林國成","徐富癸","魯明哲","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","邱若華","游顥","李柏毅","黃國昌","洪孟楷","陳雪生","黃健豪","王美惠","廖先翔"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"153262","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153262","tool":"pyannote","id":"153262-pyannote"},"job_id":"YdzN9ctzu5qGhN3H","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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車 會 不 會 因 為 流 標 拖 到 2 0 年 我 都 已 經 不 知 道 幾 歲 的 時 候 才 通 車 主 委 你 對 這 個 問 題 有 沒 有 上 解 決 方 案 那 這 個 該 我 請 主 管 來 說 明 好 不 好 好\n\n6\n00:01:38,342 --> 00:02:00,035\n跟 委 員 報 告 一 下 有 關 捷 運 工 程 確 實 這 幾 年 各 縣 市 都 積 極 的 在 辦 理 捷 運 工 程 所 以 捷 運 工 程 的 這 個 保 核 量 我 們 一 直 有 在 掌 握 有 在 分 析 那 也 希 望 說 可 以 透 過 一 些 適 度 的 分 包 那 在 預 算 跟 工 期 上 面 要 做 更 妥 適 的 一 個 安 排 那 這 些 流 標 原 因 我 們 都 有 做 一 些 整 理 跟 做 注 意 事 項 通 知 給 各 個 機 關 也 會 來 持 續 來 做 一 個 宣 導\n\n7\n00:02:02,238 --> 00:02:30,528\n這 個 預 算 跟 工 期 的 確 就 在 預 期 的 答 覆 裡 面 我 們 就 整 理 一 下 當 然 每 次 工 程 流 標 的 原 因 當 然 事 後 檢 討 一 定 是 預 算 不 足 那 工 期 不 實 都 會 有 這 些 原 因 出 現 那 還 有 包 含 說 設 計 疏 突 企 業 不 合 理 這 都 是 過 去 很 多 次 的 流 標 案 件 裡 面 我 們 看 到 的 這 些 檢 討 的 報 告 都 有 這 些 項 目 我 要 問 的 是 說 這 個 新 官 上 任 我 想 要 提 的 問 題 是 說 是 不 是 工 程 會 在 前 期 的 階 段 因 為 我 想 任 何 的 地 方 政 府 建 設 要 通 過 之 前\n\n8\n00:02:30,868 --> 00:02:50,534\n一 定 都 會 來 報 到 院 那 各 單 位 一 起 來 來 看 這 案 子 合 不 合 理 我 想 問 說 工 程 會 有 沒 有 機 會 在 這 個 階 段 就 能 夠 先 出 手 而 不 是 等 到 事 後 已 經 確 定 沒 救 了 再 來 說 因 為 你 們 當 初 預 算 變 得 不 足 工 期 不 實 社 會 術 不 合 理 在 前 期 階 段 有 沒 有 機 會 先 介 入 主 委\n\n9\n00:02:52,006 --> 00:03:17,357\n謝 謝 委 員 我 想 工 程 會 針 對 一 定 規 模 以 上 的 這 個 工 建 案 在 它 的 可 行 性 研 究 或 是 綜 合 規 劃 的 時 候 會 參 與 審 查 那 等 到 核 定 之 後 它 的 基 本 設 計 那 是 工 程 會 主 審 所 以 當 工 程 會 主 審 這 個 基 本 設 計 的 時 候 就 會 了 解 那 麼 它 的 相 關 的 問 題 包 括 減 碳 包 括 預 算 的 概 估 等 等\n\n10\n00:03:17,737 --> 00:03:41,385\n所 以 這 一 部 分 工 程 會 在 這 個 階 段 那 麼 就 有 著 墨 的 空 間 那 另 外 就 是 在 招 審 決 這 個 標 案 在 標 的 時 候 我 想 需 要 工 程 會 協 助 工 程 會 也 一 定 對 各 機 關 會 提 供 相 關 的 意 見 那 這 個 除 了 提 供 意 見 之 外 在 具 體 的 做 法 上 面 因 為 其 實\n\n11\n00:03:43,942 --> 00:04:00,499\n我 當 然 知 道 前 期 有 很 多 單 位 會 參 與 那 我 想 問 的 是 說 工 程 會 有 沒 有 可 能 因 為 其 實 你 看 在 預 算 不 足 工 期 的 問 題 因 為 只 要 預 算 不 足 導 致 因 為 現 在 其 實 最 核 心 的 當 然 缺 工 缺 料 啦 在 缺 工 缺 料 這 件 事 情 上 工 程 會 有 沒 有 機 會 去 協 調 包 含 說 勞 動 部 或 其 他 部 會\n\n12\n00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:26,806\n他 們 一 起 來 面 對 這 個 缺 工 的 問 題 因 為 你 如 果 缺 工 問 題 沒 有 解 決 的 話 後 續 這 個 預 算 不 足 供 給 不 實 他 還 是 會 持 續 發 因 為 其 實 預 算 不 足 跟 供 給 不 實 某 種 程 度 上 這 兩 件 事 情 是 互 為 因 果 啦 你 如 果 人 就 是 不 夠 蓋 的 就 是 慢 那 後 續 又 這 個 物 價 上 漲 上 來 你 預 算 當 然 不 足 嘛 所 以 想 先 問 說 工 程 會 在 這 個 事 情 上 面 的 角 色 有 沒 有 機 會 去 協 調 勞 動 部 去 解 決 這 個 缺 工 的 問 題\n\n13\n00:04:30,073 --> 00:04:50,748\n謝 謝 委 員 整 個 營 建 或 相 關 的 工 件 案 的 缺 工 那 工 程 會 的 角 色 是 可 以 針 對 這 個 個 案 他 的 不 管 是 機 關 或 者 是 說 相 關 業 者 他 提 出 需 求 的 時 候 工 程 會 是 受 行 政 院 委 託 來 審 查 這 個 需 求 是 否 合 理 尤 其 是 超 出\n\n14\n00:04:51,588 --> 00:05:19,405\n老 東 部 他 的 一 些 引 進 移 工 的 比 例 的 時 候 那 我 們 可 以 專 案 來 核 定 所 以 工 程 會 在 這 個 各 個 案 缺 移 工 的 部 分 是 可 以 扮 演 也 算 積 極 的 角 色 來 協 助 這 個 缺 工 問 題 不 過 這 個 已 經 是 標 出 去 了 在 進 行 中 那 至 於 整 體 缺 工 的 部 分 我 們 想 我 們 會 找 機 會 跟 老 東 部 共 同 來 了 解 或 是 相 關 機 關 來 了 解 整 體 是 不 是 有 整 體 的\n\n15\n00:05:20,585 --> 00:05:42,858\n這 個 引 進 的 法 規 或 者 是 必 要 好 主 委 謝 謝 也 是 有 具 體 答 覆 了 其 實 這 個 的 確 這 個 如 果 開 工 之 後 缺 工 我 也 感 謝 這 工 程 會 去 來 幫 忙 爭 取 那 除 了 民 間 的 這 個 勞 工 之 外 其 實 工 部 門 其 實 也 是 有 一 個 相 關 的 問 題 我 以 我 們 這 交 通 委 員 會 自 己 內 部 的 這 個 幾 個 單 位 來 講 說 有 些 像 鐵 道 局 他 們 在 這 個\n\n16\n00:05:45,239 --> 00:06:13,140\n報 紙 上 有 刊 載 就 多 就 是 這 個 缺 額 土 木 土 木 直 系 的 這 缺 額 多 年 這 幾 年 下 來 大 概 有 時 候 高 達 兩 成 三 成 或 是 開 出 的 缺 來 填 報 人 甚 至 沒 有 因 為 當 然 這 跟 薪 資 有 關 係 因 為 公 部 門 的 薪 資 比 不 上 業 界 因 為 最 近 這 幾 年 房 地 產 很 興 盛 所 以 業 界 的 薪 水 比 工 程 還 工 程 面 比 公 部 門 還 高 那 面 對 公 部 門 連 這 相 關 土 木 直 系 都 會 缺 工 的 情 況 下 面 工 程 會 有 沒 有 什 麼 解 決 的 這 個 方 案 處 處 出 來\n\n17\n00:06:14,949 --> 00:06:15,610\n請 同 仁 來 回 答 演 繹 當 中 演 繹 多 久 了 ?\n\n18\n00:06:44,750 --> 00:07:06,089\n這 個 是 從 去 年 去 年 下 半 年 有 開 始 在 討 論 對 那 預 計 什 麼 時 候 會 有 這 個 解 決 的 方 案 出 來 跟 委 員 報 告 有 關 於 這 個 預 計 解 決 的 方 案 這 個 部 分 因 為 涉 及 到 整 個 就 是 土 木 直 系 人 員 的 這 個 待 遇 調 整 這 個 部 分 我 們 必 須 要 再 跟 主 管 機 關 人 事 行 政 總 署 再 確 認\n\n19\n00:07:07,458 --> 00:07:33,354\n好 因 為 這 個 土 木 直 系 的 公 務 人 員 我 想 他 的 就 業 風 險 他 的 工 作 環 境 其 實 講 白 了 他 的 風 險 也 蠻 高 的 不 管 他 的 工 作 環 境 還 是 他 的 這 個 法 律 問 題 我 覺 得 土 木 直 系 的 確 是 公 務 人 員 裡 面 相 對 比 較 辛 苦 的 所 以 這 部 分 除 了 民 間 缺 工 之 外 我 也 希 望 說 工 程 會 要 注 意 到 這 個 連 工 部 門 自 己 的 專 業 人 才 也 在 缺 工 那 這 想 對 未 來 的 公 共 安 全 或 對 於 工 程 設 計 也 都 會 有 影 響 好 那 最 後 一 個 最 後 一 個 問 題 就 是 說 這 個\n\n20\n00:07:34,955 --> 00:07:57,954\n工 程 會 這 邊 既 然 我 們 都 知 道 缺 工 缺 料 那 後 面 預 算 還 有 物 價 不 斷 上 漲 我 們 希 望 未 來 在 審 核 的 時 候 包 含 不 管 是 中 央 政 府 也 好 或 地 方 政 府 也 好 都 能 夠 保 留 一 筆 預 算 來 面 對 說 工 期 延 宕 也 好 或 是 物 價 上 漲 也 好 它 帶 來 的 這 個 經 費 增 加 的 部 分 是 能 夠 先 預 留 的 而 不 是 說 因 為 你 看 有 時 候 工 程 一 延 宕 延 個 五 年 一 個 十 年\n\n21\n00:07:58,575 --> 00:07:58,655\n謝 謝 黃 健 豪 委 員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4605\t10703\t好謝謝主席那我們要請這個工程會主委陳金德主委請陳主委\n16732\t19714\t臺北捷運也好桃園捷運也好這個每一個捷運新建的過程裡面都遇到\n41710\t59767\t多次的流標那甚至季節延伸站歷經了14次流標好那才慢慢的這個終於有就標出去那桃園也是一樣和五度的流標要延到2013年才能通車好那為什麼會特別提這個呢因為我想臺中現在也正在努力的想要來推動捷運臺中目前只有一條綠線捷運\n61468\t79579\t那藍線剛通過這個綜合規劃那綠線也正在準備送那還有橘線等等的台中也很多條捷運我想要就教於我們主委是說未來這個台中捷運如果也是這樣多條線的動工那工程會員有沒有什麼樣的策略跟方式能夠來避免流票進行發生\n80640\t96178\t或是說這個會不會因為再次多次流標那本來現階段講說10年內能通車會不會因為流標拖到20年我都已經不知道幾歲的時候才通車主委你對這個問題有沒有上解決方案那這個該我請主管來說明好不好好\n98342\t120035\t跟委員報告一下有關捷運工程確實這幾年各縣市都積極的在辦理捷運工程所以捷運工程的這個保核量我們一直有在掌握有在分析那也希望說可以透過一些適度的分包那在預算跟工期上面要做更妥適的一個安排那這些流標原因我們都有做一些整理跟做注意事項通知給各個機關也會來持續來做一個宣導\n122238\t150528\t這個預算跟工期的確就在預期的答覆裡面我們就整理一下當然每次工程流標的原因當然事後檢討一定是預算不足那工期不實都會有這些原因出現那還有包含說設計疏突企業不合理這都是過去很多次的流標案件裡面我們看到的這些檢討的報告都有這些項目我要問的是說這個新官上任我想要提的問題是說是不是工程會在前期的階段因為我想任何的地方政府建設要通過之前\n150868\t170534\t一定都會來報到院那各單位一起來來看這案子合不合理我想問說工程會有沒有機會在這個階段就能夠先出手而不是等到事後已經確定沒救了再來說因為你們當初預算變得不足工期不實社會術不合理在前期階段有沒有機會先介入主委\n172006\t197357\t謝謝委員我想工程會針對一定規模以上的這個工建案在它的可行性研究或是綜合規劃的時候會參與審查那等到核定之後它的基本設計那是工程會主審所以當工程會主審這個基本設計的時候就會了解那麼它的相關的問題包括減碳包括預算的概估等等\n197737\t221385\t所以這一部分工程會在這個階段那麼就有著墨的空間那另外就是在招審決這個標案在標的時候我想需要工程會協助工程會也一定對各機關會提供相關的意見那這個除了提供意見之外在具體的做法上面因為其實\n223942\t240499\t我當然知道前期有很多單位會參與那我想問的是說工程會有沒有可能因為其實你看在預算不足工期的問題因為只要預算不足導致因為現在其實最核心的當然缺工缺料啦在缺工缺料這件事情上工程會有沒有機會去協調包含說勞動部或其他部會\n241400\t266806\t他們一起來面對這個缺工的問題因為你如果缺工問題沒有解決的話後續這個預算不足供給不實他還是會持續發因為其實預算不足跟供給不實某種程度上這兩件事情是互為因果啦你如果人就是不夠蓋的就是慢那後續又這個物價上漲上來你預算當然不足嘛所以想先問說工程會在這個事情上面的角色有沒有機會去協調勞動部去解決這個缺工的問題\n270073\t290748\t謝謝委員整個營建或相關的工件案的缺工那工程會的角色是可以針對這個個案他的不管是機關或者是說相關業者他提出需求的時候工程會是受行政院委託來審查這個需求是否合理尤其是超出\n291588\t319405\t老東部他的一些引進移工的比例的時候那我們可以專案來核定所以工程會在這個各個案缺移工的部分是可以扮演也算積極的角色來協助這個缺工問題不過這個已經是標出去了在進行中那至於整體缺工的部分我們想我們會找機會跟老東部共同來了解或是相關機關來了解整體是不是有整體的\n320585\t342858\t這個引進的法規或者是必要好主委謝謝也是有具體答覆了其實這個的確這個如果開工之後缺工我也感謝這工程會去來幫忙爭取那除了民間的這個勞工之外其實工部門其實也是有一個相關的問題我以我們這交通委員會自己內部的這個幾個單位來講說有些像鐵道局他們在這個\n345239\t373140\t報紙上有刊載就多就是這個缺額土木土木直系的這缺額多年這幾年下來大概有時候高達兩成三成或是開出的缺來填報人甚至沒有因為當然這跟薪資有關係因為公部門的薪資比不上業界因為最近這幾年房地產很興盛所以業界的薪水比工程還工程面比公部門還高那面對公部門連這相關土木直系都會缺工的情況下面工程會有沒有什麼解決的這個方案處處出來\n374949\t375610\t請同仁來回答演繹當中演繹多久了?\n404750\t426089\t這個是從去年去年下半年有開始在討論對那預計什麼時候會有這個解決的方案出來跟委員報告有關於這個預計解決的方案這個部分因為涉及到整個就是土木直系人員的這個待遇調整這個部分我們必須要再跟主管機關人事行政總署再確認\n427458\t453354\t好因為這個土木直系的公務人員我想他的就業風險他的工作環境其實講白了他的風險也蠻高的不管他的工作環境還是他的這個法律問題我覺得土木直系的確是公務人員裡面相對比較辛苦的所以這部分除了民間缺工之外我也希望說工程會要注意到這個連工部門自己的專業人才也在缺工那這想對未來的公共安全或對於工程設計也都會有影響好那最後一個最後一個問題就是說這個\n454955\t477954\t工程會這邊既然我們都知道缺工缺料那後面預算還有物價不斷上漲我們希望未來在審核的時候包含不管是中央政府也好或地方政府也好都能夠保留一筆預算來面對說工期延宕也好或是物價上漲也好它帶來的這個經費增加的部分是能夠先預留的而不是說因為你看有時候工程一延宕延個五年一個十年\n478575\t478655\t謝謝黃健豪委員\n","txt":"好謝謝主席那我們要請這個工程會主委陳金德主委請陳主委\n臺北捷運也好桃園捷運也好這個每一個捷運新建的過程裡面都遇到\n多次的流標那甚至季節延伸站歷經了14次流標好那才慢慢的這個終於有就標出去那桃園也是一樣和五度的流標要延到2013年才能通車好那為什麼會特別提這個呢因為我想臺中現在也正在努力的想要來推動捷運臺中目前只有一條綠線捷運\n那藍線剛通過這個綜合規劃那綠線也正在準備送那還有橘線等等的台中也很多條捷運我想要就教於我們主委是說未來這個台中捷運如果也是這樣多條線的動工那工程會員有沒有什麼樣的策略跟方式能夠來避免流票進行發生\n或是說這個會不會因為再次多次流標那本來現階段講說10年內能通車會不會因為流標拖到20年我都已經不知道幾歲的時候才通車主委你對這個問題有沒有上解決方案那這個該我請主管來說明好不好好\n跟委員報告一下有關捷運工程確實這幾年各縣市都積極的在辦理捷運工程所以捷運工程的這個保核量我們一直有在掌握有在分析那也希望說可以透過一些適度的分包那在預算跟工期上面要做更妥適的一個安排那這些流標原因我們都有做一些整理跟做注意事項通知給各個機關也會來持續來做一個宣導\n這個預算跟工期的確就在預期的答覆裡面我們就整理一下當然每次工程流標的原因當然事後檢討一定是預算不足那工期不實都會有這些原因出現那還有包含說設計疏突企業不合理這都是過去很多次的流標案件裡面我們看到的這些檢討的報告都有這些項目我要問的是說這個新官上任我想要提的問題是說是不是工程會在前期的階段因為我想任何的地方政府建設要通過之前\n一定都會來報到院那各單位一起來來看這案子合不合理我想問說工程會有沒有機會在這個階段就能夠先出手而不是等到事後已經確定沒救了再來說因為你們當初預算變得不足工期不實社會術不合理在前期階段有沒有機會先介入主委\n謝謝委員我想工程會針對一定規模以上的這個工建案在它的可行性研究或是綜合規劃的時候會參與審查那等到核定之後它的基本設計那是工程會主審所以當工程會主審這個基本設計的時候就會了解那麼它的相關的問題包括減碳包括預算的概估等等\n所以這一部分工程會在這個階段那麼就有著墨的空間那另外就是在招審決這個標案在標的時候我想需要工程會協助工程會也一定對各機關會提供相關的意見那這個除了提供意見之外在具體的做法上面因為其實\n我當然知道前期有很多單位會參與那我想問的是說工程會有沒有可能因為其實你看在預算不足工期的問題因為只要預算不足導致因為現在其實最核心的當然缺工缺料啦在缺工缺料這件事情上工程會有沒有機會去協調包含說勞動部或其他部會\n他們一起來面對這個缺工的問題因為你如果缺工問題沒有解決的話後續這個預算不足供給不實他還是會持續發因為其實預算不足跟供給不實某種程度上這兩件事情是互為因果啦你如果人就是不夠蓋的就是慢那後續又這個物價上漲上來你預算當然不足嘛所以想先問說工程會在這個事情上面的角色有沒有機會去協調勞動部去解決這個缺工的問題\n謝謝委員整個營建或相關的工件案的缺工那工程會的角色是可以針對這個個案他的不管是機關或者是說相關業者他提出需求的時候工程會是受行政院委託來審查這個需求是否合理尤其是超出\n老東部他的一些引進移工的比例的時候那我們可以專案來核定所以工程會在這個各個案缺移工的部分是可以扮演也算積極的角色來協助這個缺工問題不過這個已經是標出去了在進行中那至於整體缺工的部分我們想我們會找機會跟老東部共同來了解或是相關機關來了解整體是不是有整體的\n這個引進的法規或者是必要好主委謝謝也是有具體答覆了其實這個的確這個如果開工之後缺工我也感謝這工程會去來幫忙爭取那除了民間的這個勞工之外其實工部門其實也是有一個相關的問題我以我們這交通委員會自己內部的這個幾個單位來講說有些像鐵道局他們在這個\n報紙上有刊載就多就是這個缺額土木土木直系的這缺額多年這幾年下來大概有時候高達兩成三成或是開出的缺來填報人甚至沒有因為當然這跟薪資有關係因為公部門的薪資比不上業界因為最近這幾年房地產很興盛所以業界的薪水比工程還工程面比公部門還高那面對公部門連這相關土木直系都會缺工的情況下面工程會有沒有什麼解決的這個方案處處出來\n請同仁來回答演繹當中演繹多久了?\n這個是從去年去年下半年有開始在討論對那預計什麼時候會有這個解決的方案出來跟委員報告有關於這個預計解決的方案這個部分因為涉及到整個就是土木直系人員的這個待遇調整這個部分我們必須要再跟主管機關人事行政總署再確認\n好因為這個土木直系的公務人員我想他的就業風險他的工作環境其實講白了他的風險也蠻高的不管他的工作環境還是他的這個法律問題我覺得土木直系的確是公務人員裡面相對比較辛苦的所以這部分除了民間缺工之外我也希望說工程會要注意到這個連工部門自己的專業人才也在缺工那這想對未來的公共安全或對於工程設計也都會有影響好那最後一個最後一個問題就是說這個\n工程會這邊既然我們都知道缺工缺料那後面預算還有物價不斷上漲我們希望未來在審核的時候包含不管是中央政府也好或地方政府也好都能夠保留一筆預算來面對說工期延宕也好或是物價上漲也好它帶來的這個經費增加的部分是能夠先預留的而不是說因為你看有時候工程一延宕延個五年一個十年\n謝謝黃健豪委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.605 --> 00:10.703\n好 謝 謝 主 席 那 我 們 要 請 這 個 工 程 會 主 委 陳 金 德 主 委 請 陳 主 委\n\n00:16.732 --> 00:19.714\n臺 北 捷 運 也 好 桃 園 捷 運 也 好 這 個 每 一 個 捷 運 新 建 的 過 程 裡 面 都 遇 到\n\n00:41.710 --> 00:59.767\n多 次 的 流 標 那 甚 至 季 節 延 伸 站 歷 經 了 1 4 次 流 標 好 那 才 慢 慢 的 這 個 終 於 有 就 標 出 去 那 桃 園 也 是 一 樣 和 五 度 的 流 標 要 延 到 2 0 1 3 年 才 能 通 車 好 那 為 什 麼 會 特 別 提 這 個 呢 因 為 我 想 臺 中 現 在 也 正 在 努 力 的 想 要 來 推 動 捷 運 臺 中 目 前 只 有 一 條 綠 線 捷 運\n\n01:01.468 --> 01:19.579\n那 藍 線 剛 通 過 這 個 綜 合 規 劃 那 綠 線 也 正 在 準 備 送 那 還 有 橘 線 等 等 的 台 中 也 很 多 條 捷 運 我 想 要 就 教 於 我 們 主 委 是 說 未 來 這 個 台 中 捷 運 如 果 也 是 這 樣 多 條 線 的 動 工 那 工 程 會 員 有 沒 有 什 麼 樣 的 策 略 跟 方 式 能 夠 來 避 免 流 票 進 行 發 生\n\n01:20.640 --> 01:36.178\n或 是 說 這 個 會 不 會 因 為 再 次 多 次 流 標 那 本 來 現 階 段 講 說 1 0 年 內 能 通 車 會 不 會 因 為 流 標 拖 到 2 0 年 我 都 已 經 不 知 道 幾 歲 的 時 候 才 通 車 主 委 你 對 這 個 問 題 有 沒 有 上 解 決 方 案 那 這 個 該 我 請 主 管 來 說 明 好 不 好 好\n\n01:38.342 --> 02:00.035\n跟 委 員 報 告 一 下 有 關 捷 運 工 程 確 實 這 幾 年 各 縣 市 都 積 極 的 在 辦 理 捷 運 工 程 所 以 捷 運 工 程 的 這 個 保 核 量 我 們 一 直 有 在 掌 握 有 在 分 析 那 也 希 望 說 可 以 透 過 一 些 適 度 的 分 包 那 在 預 算 跟 工 期 上 面 要 做 更 妥 適 的 一 個 安 排 那 這 些 流 標 原 因 我 們 都 有 做 一 些 整 理 跟 做 注 意 事 項 通 知 給 各 個 機 關 也 會 來 持 續 來 做 一 個 宣 導\n\n02:02.238 --> 02:30.528\n這 個 預 算 跟 工 期 的 確 就 在 預 期 的 答 覆 裡 面 我 們 就 整 理 一 下 當 然 每 次 工 程 流 標 的 原 因 當 然 事 後 檢 討 一 定 是 預 算 不 足 那 工 期 不 實 都 會 有 這 些 原 因 出 現 那 還 有 包 含 說 設 計 疏 突 企 業 不 合 理 這 都 是 過 去 很 多 次 的 流 標 案 件 裡 面 我 們 看 到 的 這 些 檢 討 的 報 告 都 有 這 些 項 目 我 要 問 的 是 說 這 個 新 官 上 任 我 想 要 提 的 問 題 是 說 是 不 是 工 程 會 在 前 期 的 階 段 因 為 我 想 任 何 的 地 方 政 府 建 設 要 通 過 之 前\n\n02:30.868 --> 02:50.534\n一 定 都 會 來 報 到 院 那 各 單 位 一 起 來 來 看 這 案 子 合 不 合 理 我 想 問 說 工 程 會 有 沒 有 機 會 在 這 個 階 段 就 能 夠 先 出 手 而 不 是 等 到 事 後 已 經 確 定 沒 救 了 再 來 說 因 為 你 們 當 初 預 算 變 得 不 足 工 期 不 實 社 會 術 不 合 理 在 前 期 階 段 有 沒 有 機 會 先 介 入 主 委\n\n02:52.006 --> 03:17.357\n謝 謝 委 員 我 想 工 程 會 針 對 一 定 規 模 以 上 的 這 個 工 建 案 在 它 的 可 行 性 研 究 或 是 綜 合 規 劃 的 時 候 會 參 與 審 查 那 等 到 核 定 之 後 它 的 基 本 設 計 那 是 工 程 會 主 審 所 以 當 工 程 會 主 審 這 個 基 本 設 計 的 時 候 就 會 了 解 那 麼 它 的 相 關 的 問 題 包 括 減 碳 包 括 預 算 的 概 估 等 等\n\n03:17.737 --> 03:41.385\n所 以 這 一 部 分 工 程 會 在 這 個 階 段 那 麼 就 有 著 墨 的 空 間 那 另 外 就 是 在 招 審 決 這 個 標 案 在 標 的 時 候 我 想 需 要 工 程 會 協 助 工 程 會 也 一 定 對 各 機 關 會 提 供 相 關 的 意 見 那 這 個 除 了 提 供 意 見 之 外 在 具 體 的 做 法 上 面 因 為 其 實\n\n03:43.942 --> 04:00.499\n我 當 然 知 道 前 期 有 很 多 單 位 會 參 與 那 我 想 問 的 是 說 工 程 會 有 沒 有 可 能 因 為 其 實 你 看 在 預 算 不 足 工 期 的 問 題 因 為 只 要 預 算 不 足 導 致 因 為 現 在 其 實 最 核 心 的 當 然 缺 工 缺 料 啦 在 缺 工 缺 料 這 件 事 情 上 工 程 會 有 沒 有 機 會 去 協 調 包 含 說 勞 動 部 或 其 他 部 會\n\n04:01.400 --> 04:26.806\n他 們 一 起 來 面 對 這 個 缺 工 的 問 題 因 為 你 如 果 缺 工 問 題 沒 有 解 決 的 話 後 續 這 個 預 算 不 足 供 給 不 實 他 還 是 會 持 續 發 因 為 其 實 預 算 不 足 跟 供 給 不 實 某 種 程 度 上 這 兩 件 事 情 是 互 為 因 果 啦 你 如 果 人 就 是 不 夠 蓋 的 就 是 慢 那 後 續 又 這 個 物 價 上 漲 上 來 你 預 算 當 然 不 足 嘛 所 以 想 先 問 說 工 程 會 在 這 個 事 情 上 面 的 角 色 有 沒 有 機 會 去 協 調 勞 動 部 去 解 決 這 個 缺 工 的 問 題\n\n04:30.073 --> 04:50.748\n謝 謝 委 員 整 個 營 建 或 相 關 的 工 件 案 的 缺 工 那 工 程 會 的 角 色 是 可 以 針 對 這 個 個 案 他 的 不 管 是 機 關 或 者 是 說 相 關 業 者 他 提 出 需 求 的 時 候 工 程 會 是 受 行 政 院 委 託 來 審 查 這 個 需 求 是 否 合 理 尤 其 是 超 出\n\n04:51.588 --> 05:19.405\n老 東 部 他 的 一 些 引 進 移 工 的 比 例 的 時 候 那 我 們 可 以 專 案 來 核 定 所 以 工 程 會 在 這 個 各 個 案 缺 移 工 的 部 分 是 可 以 扮 演 也 算 積 極 的 角 色 來 協 助 這 個 缺 工 問 題 不 過 這 個 已 經 是 標 出 去 了 在 進 行 中 那 至 於 整 體 缺 工 的 部 分 我 們 想 我 們 會 找 機 會 跟 老 東 部 共 同 來 了 解 或 是 相 關 機 關 來 了 解 整 體 是 不 是 有 整 體 的\n\n05:20.585 --> 05:42.858\n這 個 引 進 的 法 規 或 者 是 必 要 好 主 委 謝 謝 也 是 有 具 體 答 覆 了 其 實 這 個 的 確 這 個 如 果 開 工 之 後 缺 工 我 也 感 謝 這 工 程 會 去 來 幫 忙 爭 取 那 除 了 民 間 的 這 個 勞 工 之 外 其 實 工 部 門 其 實 也 是 有 一 個 相 關 的 問 題 我 以 我 們 這 交 通 委 員 會 自 己 內 部 的 這 個 幾 個 單 位 來 講 說 有 些 像 鐵 道 局 他 們 在 這 個\n\n05:45.239 --> 06:13.140\n報 紙 上 有 刊 載 就 多 就 是 這 個 缺 額 土 木 土 木 直 系 的 這 缺 額 多 年 這 幾 年 下 來 大 概 有 時 候 高 達 兩 成 三 成 或 是 開 出 的 缺 來 填 報 人 甚 至 沒 有 因 為 當 然 這 跟 薪 資 有 關 係 因 為 公 部 門 的 薪 資 比 不 上 業 界 因 為 最 近 這 幾 年 房 地 產 很 興 盛 所 以 業 界 的 薪 水 比 工 程 還 工 程 面 比 公 部 門 還 高 那 面 對 公 部 門 連 這 相 關 土 木 直 系 都 會 缺 工 的 情 況 下 面 工 程 會 有 沒 有 什 麼 解 決 的 這 個 方 案 處 處 出 來\n\n06:14.949 --> 06:15.610\n請 同 仁 來 回 答 演 繹 當 中 演 繹 多 久 了 ?\n\n06:44.750 --> 07:06.089\n這 個 是 從 去 年 去 年 下 半 年 有 開 始 在 討 論 對 那 預 計 什 麼 時 候 會 有 這 個 解 決 的 方 案 出 來 跟 委 員 報 告 有 關 於 這 個 預 計 解 決 的 方 案 這 個 部 分 因 為 涉 及 到 整 個 就 是 土 木 直 系 人 員 的 這 個 待 遇 調 整 這 個 部 分 我 們 必 須 要 再 跟 主 管 機 關 人 事 行 政 總 署 再 確 認\n\n07:07.458 --> 07:33.354\n好 因 為 這 個 土 木 直 系 的 公 務 人 員 我 想 他 的 就 業 風 險 他 的 工 作 環 境 其 實 講 白 了 他 的 風 險 也 蠻 高 的 不 管 他 的 工 作 環 境 還 是 他 的 這 個 法 律 問 題 我 覺 得 土 木 直 系 的 確 是 公 務 人 員 裡 面 相 對 比 較 辛 苦 的 所 以 這 部 分 除 了 民 間 缺 工 之 外 我 也 希 望 說 工 程 會 要 注 意 到 這 個 連 工 部 門 自 己 的 專 業 人 才 也 在 缺 工 那 這 想 對 未 來 的 公 共 安 全 或 對 於 工 程 設 計 也 都 會 有 影 響 好 那 最 後 一 個 最 後 一 個 問 題 就 是 說 這 個\n\n07:34.955 --> 07:57.954\n工 程 會 這 邊 既 然 我 們 都 知 道 缺 工 缺 料 那 後 面 預 算 還 有 物 價 不 斷 上 漲 我 們 希 望 未 來 在 審 核 的 時 候 包 含 不 管 是 中 央 政 府 也 好 或 地 方 政 府 也 好 都 能 夠 保 留 一 筆 預 算 來 面 對 說 工 期 延 宕 也 好 或 是 物 價 上 漲 也 好 它 帶 來 的 這 個 經 費 增 加 的 部 分 是 能 夠 先 預 留 的 而 不 是 說 因 為 你 看 有 時 候 工 程 一 延 宕 延 個 五 年 一 個 十 年\n\n07:58.575 --> 07:58.655\n謝 謝 黃 健 豪 委 員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.605,"end":10.703,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們要請這個工程會主委陳金德主委請陳主委"},{"start":16.732,"end":19.714,"text":"臺北捷運也好桃園捷運也好這個每一個捷運新建的過程裡面都遇到"},{"start":41.71,"end":59.767,"text":"多次的流標那甚至季節延伸站歷經了14次流標好那才慢慢的這個終於有就標出去那桃園也是一樣和五度的流標要延到2013年才能通車好那為什麼會特別提這個呢因為我想臺中現在也正在努力的想要來推動捷運臺中目前只有一條綠線捷運"},{"start":61.468,"end":79.579,"text":"那藍線剛通過這個綜合規劃那綠線也正在準備送那還有橘線等等的台中也很多條捷運我想要就教於我們主委是說未來這個台中捷運如果也是這樣多條線的動工那工程會員有沒有什麼樣的策略跟方式能夠來避免流票進行發生"},{"start":80.64,"end":96.178,"text":"或是說這個會不會因為再次多次流標那本來現階段講說10年內能通車會不會因為流標拖到20年我都已經不知道幾歲的時候才通車主委你對這個問題有沒有上解決方案那這個該我請主管來說明好不好好"},{"start":98.342,"end":120.035,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關捷運工程確實這幾年各縣市都積極的在辦理捷運工程所以捷運工程的這個保核量我們一直有在掌握有在分析那也希望說可以透過一些適度的分包那在預算跟工期上面要做更妥適的一個安排那這些流標原因我們都有做一些整理跟做注意事項通知給各個機關也會來持續來做一個宣導"},{"start":122.238,"end":150.528,"text":"這個預算跟工期的確就在預期的答覆裡面我們就整理一下當然每次工程流標的原因當然事後檢討一定是預算不足那工期不實都會有這些原因出現那還有包含說設計疏突企業不合理這都是過去很多次的流標案件裡面我們看到的這些檢討的報告都有這些項目我要問的是說這個新官上任我想要提的問題是說是不是工程會在前期的階段因為我想任何的地方政府建設要通過之前"},{"start":150.868,"end":170.534,"text":"一定都會來報到院那各單位一起來來看這案子合不合理我想問說工程會有沒有機會在這個階段就能夠先出手而不是等到事後已經確定沒救了再來說因為你們當初預算變得不足工期不實社會術不合理在前期階段有沒有機會先介入主委"},{"start":172.006,"end":197.357,"text":"謝謝委員我想工程會針對一定規模以上的這個工建案在它的可行性研究或是綜合規劃的時候會參與審查那等到核定之後它的基本設計那是工程會主審所以當工程會主審這個基本設計的時候就會了解那麼它的相關的問題包括減碳包括預算的概估等等"},{"start":197.737,"end":221.385,"text":"所以這一部分工程會在這個階段那麼就有著墨的空間那另外就是在招審決這個標案在標的時候我想需要工程會協助工程會也一定對各機關會提供相關的意見那這個除了提供意見之外在具體的做法上面因為其實"},{"start":223.942,"end":240.499,"text":"我當然知道前期有很多單位會參與那我想問的是說工程會有沒有可能因為其實你看在預算不足工期的問題因為只要預算不足導致因為現在其實最核心的當然缺工缺料啦在缺工缺料這件事情上工程會有沒有機會去協調包含說勞動部或其他部會"},{"start":241.4,"end":266.806,"text":"他們一起來面對這個缺工的問題因為你如果缺工問題沒有解決的話後續這個預算不足供給不實他還是會持續發因為其實預算不足跟供給不實某種程度上這兩件事情是互為因果啦你如果人就是不夠蓋的就是慢那後續又這個物價上漲上來你預算當然不足嘛所以想先問說工程會在這個事情上面的角色有沒有機會去協調勞動部去解決這個缺工的問題"},{"start":270.073,"end":290.748,"text":"謝謝委員整個營建或相關的工件案的缺工那工程會的角色是可以針對這個個案他的不管是機關或者是說相關業者他提出需求的時候工程會是受行政院委託來審查這個需求是否合理尤其是超出"},{"start":291.588,"end":319.405,"text":"老東部他的一些引進移工的比例的時候那我們可以專案來核定所以工程會在這個各個案缺移工的部分是可以扮演也算積極的角色來協助這個缺工問題不過這個已經是標出去了在進行中那至於整體缺工的部分我們想我們會找機會跟老東部共同來了解或是相關機關來了解整體是不是有整體的"},{"start":320.585,"end":342.858,"text":"這個引進的法規或者是必要好主委謝謝也是有具體答覆了其實這個的確這個如果開工之後缺工我也感謝這工程會去來幫忙爭取那除了民間的這個勞工之外其實工部門其實也是有一個相關的問題我以我們這交通委員會自己內部的這個幾個單位來講說有些像鐵道局他們在這個"},{"start":345.239,"end":373.14,"text":"報紙上有刊載就多就是這個缺額土木土木直系的這缺額多年這幾年下來大概有時候高達兩成三成或是開出的缺來填報人甚至沒有因為當然這跟薪資有關係因為公部門的薪資比不上業界因為最近這幾年房地產很興盛所以業界的薪水比工程還工程面比公部門還高那面對公部門連這相關土木直系都會缺工的情況下面工程會有沒有什麼解決的這個方案處處出來"},{"start":374.949,"end":375.61,"text":"請同仁來回答演繹當中演繹多久了?"},{"start":404.75,"end":426.089,"text":"這個是從去年去年下半年有開始在討論對那預計什麼時候會有這個解決的方案出來跟委員報告有關於這個預計解決的方案這個部分因為涉及到整個就是土木直系人員的這個待遇調整這個部分我們必須要再跟主管機關人事行政總署再確認"},{"start":427.458,"end":453.354,"text":"好因為這個土木直系的公務人員我想他的就業風險他的工作環境其實講白了他的風險也蠻高的不管他的工作環境還是他的這個法律問題我覺得土木直系的確是公務人員裡面相對比較辛苦的所以這部分除了民間缺工之外我也希望說工程會要注意到這個連工部門自己的專業人才也在缺工那這想對未來的公共安全或對於工程設計也都會有影響好那最後一個最後一個問題就是說這個"},{"start":454.955,"end":477.954,"text":"工程會這邊既然我們都知道缺工缺料那後面預算還有物價不斷上漲我們希望未來在審核的時候包含不管是中央政府也好或地方政府也好都能夠保留一筆預算來面對說工期延宕也好或是物價上漲也好它帶來的這個經費增加的部分是能夠先預留的而不是說因為你看有時候工程一延宕延個五年一個十年"},{"start":478.575,"end":478.655,"text":"謝謝黃健豪委員"}]}}}}