{"id":153265,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13311777b393db098cb574cb636d3605ada8c09f7998a2d5a4c1e581468a791245555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"11:50:38 - 12:01:29","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":651,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-22"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:01:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T11:50:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請國安局局長，謝謝。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。我針對今天的題目，就是就職這一個方面來討論一下，根據我們在520還沒到之前，我們還是很關注中國的灰色地帶作戰，粗略來講，還是都是分那幾類嘛！一個軍事的，然後政治的，然後還有information，就是跟資訊有關的，還有經濟。在之前的這些分析當中，這四大類多少還是有一些此消彼長的關係，很少說四管齊下，那這一次我們在觀察的時候，就有發現幾個比較異樣的地方。當然第一個就是在資訊的世界裡面，對我們來講，一開始除了一般的假消息之外，我們關心的應該是關鍵基礎設施的攻擊，因為今天國土辦應該不在，我也記得今天沒有國土辦，但是看起來他對關鍵基礎設施的攻擊，看起來還是在，看起來還有一些未爆彈，所以一開始想先問一下局長，我們先就資訊這一塊來講，目前掌握的狀況是如何？能夠講的。"],["蔡局長明彥：資訊的部分有兩部分，一個部分是爭議訊息的散播，那在演習的這兩天，我們確實注意到網路有一些有問題的帳號，有刻意的在散播一些爭議訊息。我剛剛在會前也跟媒體朋友有說明過，操作重點放在疑美、疑軍跟疑賴，這是這一波爭議訊息操作的重點，相關爭議訊息的問題，我們都有通報到相關部會來做必要的回應跟處理。第二部分是在資安的攻擊方面，攻擊的次數在520當天有稍微增加一點，然後520之後有降低，到了軍演的523又稍微高一點，但是這些攻擊都沒有達成有效的攻擊侵害成果，但是數字上，我們有在觀察那個變化趨勢。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這個也跟我自己在觀察的現象應該是蠻類似的，尤其是資安這一方面。剛剛有講過，他有兩波嘛！，一波當然是在520之後，然後後來減少，之後又再增加。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛王定宇委員其實也有提到的，後面他還沒有問完，就是跟人民日報的所作所為可能有點關係，就是說他在整體輿論方面，520當然對他們來講是重要的一個輿論操作時機，但很明顯的，過了幾天之後，這個人民日報看起來跟對臺鷹派可能是比較類似一點，也就是說他發動了新的攻擊，那我覺得這一件事情，對我們在做國安的研判來講，看起來是一個警訊啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["沈委員伯洋：那我先往下看一下其他的方面，當然在這邊有一個就是跟大量的藝人表態是有關係的，雖然它算是本來的統戰網絡，那這個今天應該很多人都已經問過，這個我就不多說，它有大量的散播。但是除了所謂的用臺獨工作者這樣的方式去形成一個對比，一方面有人是支持統一，然後去抨擊臺獨工作者，去貼上一個標籤。那我現在比較擔心的事情就是在往下這一邊，因為藝人就我們以前的研究來講，他一直以來可能會慢慢一步一步的，先跟你講說你是不支持臺獨、你反對臺獨，一直到你不反對統一，到支持統一，他會有一步一步的往下嘛！但因為藝人是對外的，所以對他們來講是一個統戰的樣板，但因為整個影視的產業鏈不是只有藝人一個人而已，還包含背後的經紀公司等等之類的，還有一些可能比較不喜歡出面的導演，所以就是在第二個步驟，目前來講他們統戰給予的利益，對外的這個部分我們是看得見的，那對於娛樂產業幕後的這些工作者的壓迫形式，看起來有可能今年會變得越來越多，不知道國安單位對這個部分的掌握是如何？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題，先跟委員說明一下，因為以國安單位的立場來講，我們不適合去評論個別的藝人，因為我們的評論會造成他遭受到……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我們看整體娛樂產業。"],["蔡局長明彥：整體的娛樂產業受到的壓迫形式大概有幾種，一種是會請藝人或經紀公司來簽署相關的認同書，這包括要認同九二共識、一個中國，或是在展演的過程當中，不能夠批評中國國內的政治體制或相關的事件，這是第一個部分。第二個部分，會跟經紀公司可能有威脅查稅相關的一個動作，讓經紀公司要配合到相關中共政府部門的一些政治上的宣傳操作。第三個部分，也會針對這些演唱會的活動，以公安或安全的理由來管控入場的人數，這個部分也會讓策辦活動相關的公司或單位承受到一些壓力。所以就我們所掌握到的公情或密情相關可以對外說明的情資，大概壓迫的型態有這幾類。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛有提到，第一個是跟演藝活動有關，再來跟查稅有關，跟簽認同書有關。簽認同書這個部分，我們在軍方其實也很常看到，不只認同書，還包含投降書。所以這邊再拉回來，他對臺這些其他的統戰工作，譬如假設今天是學校，像之前學校有些會有中生的交換，雖然這是教育部在管轄的事情，他們跟這些中國的學校在簽的時候，可能也會簽署在交換的同時，中國的學生在我們這邊，我們確保我們的教授不會提到法輪功、不會提到東突厥斯坦等等之類的。但現在很大的一個問題是，只要有簽這些東西，其實大部分是不對外公開的，我們一般人無法得知，而演藝工作者在這個方面，他的經紀公司簽這個，我們也不知道，所以我在第三個點想要問的事情是，這個事情可能對我們來講變得越來越重要是因為，對國人來講，或者對心戰來講，我們今天要知道哪些人是被威脅的，他可能是不得已的，或是哪些人是自願跪上去的，這個其實對國人的這個認知是不太一樣的。雖然法律並沒有強制的規定，但目前來講，中國跟這些人的接觸是不透明的，所以我們會搞不清楚到底哪些人被威脅、哪些人不是被威脅，這種細緻的差別，可能需要讓國人知道。但不知道以國安單位的立場來講，有沒有可能對法律提供一些建議？雖然這是立法委員的責任，但是行政單位一直以來都有法案草擬的權利。我們有沒有可能讓這些事情更容易地被揭露，但是又不會侵害到人權，也不會侵害到很多人念茲在茲所謂的兩岸交流？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這也是一開始我在回答委員這個問題，第一時間就提醒的，就是我們不適合針對個案或個人來做一些評論，因為會影響他在大陸可能被相關單位來接觸跟施壓。就我們來講，我們比較能夠來對外說明的，還是在於他施壓的樣態。也感謝委員，我一開始也謝謝委員透過這樣的提問，讓我們來說明一下，可能我們的演藝人員，不只演藝人員，可能包括其他藝文工作者，或是甚至企業界到對岸去，你要經商、求學可能都面臨到來自於中國政府施壓的一個手法，讓國內的社會能夠瞭解這樣的狀況，在進行兩岸交流的時候，也能夠來示警，讓相關單位可以注意到這種中共政治操作的手法。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，因為這個就是我覺得有時候跟我們政戰單位想要去做心戰的防護也有很高的關係，很希望之後對於政戰這一邊跟國安之間的交流能夠更多，不過這個部分，之後我會再來問國防部。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：我拉回來，我們剛剛講就四個層面，軍事層面、政治層面、資訊層面、經濟層面，政治層面就包含外交。經濟層面我放在最後就是因為很明顯這一次經濟層面是比較少的，這跟中國去年一整年以來的作為其實是滿類似的，他們經濟的實力其實是一直在往下掉，所以在經濟要做一些制裁等等之類的，這個是弱化的。所以他的經濟可能會更偏向統戰這一塊，比如他可能在臺灣想要推自經區，又或者最近在馬祖發這些卡等等之類的，藉由一些比較小恩小惠的經濟，或者跟我們臺灣的地方政府簽訂相關的協定，把一個經濟的區域範圍畫出來，有可能是相較於以往，他們做那種經濟制裁可能會變得更多。他這個力道變少之後，其實照理說，在資訊世界是他最沒有成本的，相較於外交，因為外交，他需要花很多成本，那麼資訊世界，如果他是需要比較低成本的，照理說，資訊世界的攻擊應該變得更多。因為我們自己民間平常本來就有在做這些資料的分析，第一件事情，我想問的是，剛剛在問的問題其實也跟這個有關，就是這一次，不管是假消息的散播等等之類的，相較於4年前那一次520比起來，國安單位這邊覺得是比較多，還是持平，還是反而是變少？"],["蔡局長明彥：就這一次520就職的期間，我剛剛也跟委員所提到了，有注意到社群媒體上有一些比較有問題的帳號，或是一次性的帳號，有非常頻密的在散布這些爭議訊息。一開始在進入會場，我也跟媒體朋友說到，這一波的操作重點大概有三個主要的面向，一個部分是疑美，質疑美國要協防臺灣的能力；一個部分是疑軍，對於我們國軍能不能自我防衛的能力來產生一些爭議訊息的散播；第三個就是疑賴，對於新任的總統管理兩岸的能力提出一些質疑。這個部分大概有看到中共透過內容農場的方式來散布這樣的爭訊，再由不同的社群媒體平臺或假帳號、問題帳號來進行散播。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我們這次看到的，其實外交做得滿多的，軍事當然不用講，一直以來都是這個樣子，軍事我可能放在後面。所以我現在會認為在資訊世界本身的一個操作，看起來有跟以前不一樣的地方，我們自己看是覺得反而有些地方是變少的，他比較集中，可能跟俄羅斯比較像，就是有點精準打擊。這個不知道，因為畢竟戰略支援部隊最近有重組，重組之後到底誰負責什麼？駭客到底有沒有負責到假消息？還是他們就在隔壁互相分享資訊？還是他們完全是分開的團隊？現在是非常不明朗的。","所以我在這邊還是建議，可能對於他們的信息支援部隊跟網路空間部隊，尤其是這兩個，到底現在誰在主導、主導的節奏是什麼，因為我覺得很明顯跟之前有點不同，這個可能是之後要掌握的，也希望在下一次質詢的時候，我們可以針對這一點再往下討論，也讓國人知道。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝局長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-22","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","洪申翰","陳永康","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","沈伯洋","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發\n展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"153265","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153265","tool":"pyannote","id":"153265-pyannote"},"job_id":"ORbEFQOoHenK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就 針 對 今 天 的 題 目 就 是 就 職 這 一 個 方 面 來 討 論 一 下 那 就 是 說 根 據 我 們 這 個 在 五 二 年 還 沒 到 之 前 我 們 還 是 很 關 注 中 國 的 這 一 個 灰 色 地 帶 作 戰 那 粗 略 來 講 還 是 都 是 分 那 幾 類 嘛 一 個 軍 事 的 然 後 呢 政 治 的 然 後 還 有 i n f o r m a t i o n 就 是 跟 資 訊 有 關 的 還 有 經 濟\n\n3\n00:00:36,250 --> 00:00:55,579\n在 之 前 的 這 些 分 析 當 中 這 四 大 類 多 少 還 是 有 一 些 此 消 彼 長 的 關 係 他 有 時 候 很 少 說 四 管 齊 下 那 這 一 次 我 們 在 觀 察 的 時 候 就 有 發 現 幾 個 比 較 異 樣 的 地 方 當 然 第 一 個 就 是 在 資 訊 世 界 裡 面 對 我 們 來 講 一 開 始 除 了 一 般 的 假 消 息 之 外 我 們 關 心 的 應 該 是 關 鍵 基 礎 設 施 的 一 個 攻 擊\n\n4\n00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,942\n關 鍵 基 礎 設 施 對 關 鍵 基 礎 設 施 的 攻 擊 看 起 來 是 在 , 看 起 來 買 了 一 些 未 爆 彈 , 所 以 一 開 始 想 先 問 一 下 局 長 就 是 說 , 我 們 先 就 資 訊 這 一 塊 來 講 , 目 前 掌 握 的 狀 況 是 如 何 , 能 夠 講 的\n\n5\n00:01:17,926 --> 00:01:36,596\n這 大 概 資 訊 的 部 分 有 兩 部 分 一 個 部 分 是 爭 議 訊 息 的 散 播 那 在 演 習 的 這 兩 天 我 們 確 實 注 意 到 網 路 有 一 些 有 問 題 的 帳 號 有 刻 意 的 在 散 播 一 些 爭 議 訊 息 那 我 在 剛 剛 會 前 也 跟 媒 體 朋 友 有 說 明 過 那 操 作 重 點 放 在 移 美 、 移 軍 跟 移 賴\n\n6\n00:01:37,576 --> 00:02:05,456\n這 是 這 一 波 爭 議 訊 息 操 作 的 重 點 那 相 關 的 爭 議 訊 息 的 問 題 我 們 有 都 通 報 到 相 關 部 會 來 做 必 要 的 回 應 跟 處 理 第 二 部 分 是 在 治 安 的 攻 擊 方 面 那 攻 擊 的 次 數 在 5 2 0 當 天 有 稍 微 增 加 一 點 然 後 5 2 0 之 後 有 降 低 到 了 軍 演 的 5 2 3 又 稍 微 高 一 點 那 但 是 這 些 攻 擊 都 沒 有 達 成 有 效 的 攻 擊 侵 害 的 一 個 成 果 但 是 數 字 上 我 們 有 在 觀 察 那 個 變 化 趨 勢\n\n7\n00:02:06,677 --> 00:02:34,613\n對 , 那 這 個 也 是 跟 我 自 己 在 觀 察 的 現 象 應 該 是 蠻 類 似 的 尤 其 是 資 安 這 一 方 面 那 但 是 剛 剛 有 講 過 就 是 說 他 有 兩 波 嘛 一 波 當 然 是 在 5 2 0 之 後 然 後 後 來 減 少 後 來 又 再 增 加 那 這 跟 剛 剛 這 個 王 定 宇 委 員 其 實 也 有 提 到 的 跟 這 個 後 面 他 還 沒 有 問 完 就 是 跟 這 個 人 民 日 報 的 這 個 所 作 所 為 可 能 有 一 點 關 係 就 是 說 他 在 整 體 輿 論 方 面 5 2 0 當 然 對 他 來 講 是 重 要 的 一 個 輿 論 操 作 但 很 明 顯 的 過 了 幾 天 之 後 呢 這 個 人 民 日 報\n\n8\n00:02:35,433 --> 00:03:01,689\n看 起 來 跟 對 台 鷹 派 可 能 是 比 較 類 似 一 點 也 就 是 說 他 發 動 了 新 的 攻 擊 那 我 覺 得 這 一 件 事 情 對 我 們 在 做 國 安 的 研 判 來 講 看 起 來 是 一 個 警 訊 那 我 先 往 下 看 一 下 其 他 的 方 面 就 是 說 呢 當 然 在 這 邊 有 一 個 就 是 大 量 的 這 個 跟 藝 人 的 表 態 是 有 關 係 的 所 以 他 算 是 本 來 的 統 戰 網 絡 那 這 個 應 該 是 今 天 很 多 人 都 已 經 問 過 這 個 我 就 不 多 說 他 有 大 量 的 一 個 散 佈\n\n9\n00:03:02,990 --> 00:03:32,612\n但 是 呢 就 是 說 除 了 這 個 所 謂 的 用 這 種 台 獨 工 作 者 這 樣 的 一 個 方 式 呢 他 去 形 成 一 個 對 比 一 方 面 有 人 是 支 持 統 一 然 後 去 抨 擊 台 獨 工 作 者 去 貼 上 一 個 標 籤 那 我 現 在 比 較 擔 心 的 事 情 呢 就 是 在 往 下 這 一 邊 因 為 藝 人 呢 就 我 們 以 前 的 研 究 來 講 他 一 直 以 來 呢 他 可 能 會 慢 慢 一 步 一 步 的 先 跟 你 講 說 你 是 不 支 持 台 獨 你 反 對 台 獨 一 直 到 你 不 反 對 統 一 到 支 持 統 一 他 會 有 一 步 一 步 的 往 下 嘛\n\n10\n00:03:33,052 --> 00:04:01,713\n但 因 為 藝 人 是 對 外 的 所 以 他 們 來 講 是 一 個 統 戰 的 樣 板 但 因 為 整 個 影 視 的 產 業 鏈 不 是 只 有 藝 人 一 個 人 而 已 它 包 含 背 後 的 這 個 經 紀 公 司 等 等 之 類 的 還 有 一 些 可 能 比 較 不 喜 歡 出 面 的 導 演 所 以 就 是 在 第 二 個 步 驟 目 前 來 講 他 們 統 戰 給 予 利 益 對 外 的 這 個 部 分 我 們 是 看 得 見 的 那 對 於 娛 樂 產 業 這 個 幕 後 的 這 些 工 作 者 的 壓 迫 的 形 式 看 起 來 有 可 能 今 年 會 變 得 越 來 越 多 那 不 知 道 國 安 單 位 對 這 個 部 分 的 掌 握 是 如 何\n\n11\n00:04:02,393 --> 00:04:12,922\n謝 謝 委 員 提 到 這 個 問 題 但 先 跟 委 員 說 明 一 下 因 為 以 關 單 位 的 立 場 來 講 我 們 不 適 合 去 評 論 個 別 的 藝 人 因 為 我 們 的 評 論 會 造 成 他 對 我 們 看 整 體 的 娛 樂 產 業 整 體 的 娛 樂 產 業 大 概 壓 迫 的 形 式 有 幾 種 一 種 是 會 請 藝 人 或 經 濟 公 司 來 簽 署 相 關 的 認 同 書 這 包 括 要 認 同 九 個 共 識 一 個 中 國\n\n12\n00:04:23,570 --> 00:04:23,710\n沈 伯 洋 議 員\n\n13\n00:04:51,064 --> 00:04:51,304\n沈 伯 洋\n\n14\n00:05:08,137 --> 00:05:23,792\n那 剛 剛 有 提 到 第 一 個 是 跟 演 藝 活 動 有 關 再 來 跟 查 稅 有 關 然 後 跟 簽 認 同 書 有 關 那 簽 認 同 書 這 個 我 們 在 軍 方 其 實 也 很 常 看 到 他 都 不 只 是 認 同 書 還 包 含 投 降 書 所 以 這 邊 再 拉 回 來 就 是 說 他 對 台 的 這 些 其 他 的 統 戰 工 作 譬 如 說 假 設 今 天 是 學 校\n\n15\n00:05:24,292 --> 00:05:49,833\n像 之 前 學 校 有 些 會 有 終 身 的 交 換 嘛 雖 然 這 是 教 育 部 在 管 轄 的 事 情 但 他 們 在 跟 這 些 中 國 的 這 些 學 校 在 簽 的 時 候 呢 他 可 能 也 會 簽 說 那 我 們 在 交 換 的 同 時 呢 你 們 的 這 個 中 國 的 學 生 在 我 們 這 邊 我 們 確 保 我 們 的 教 授 不 會 提 到 法 輪 功 不 會 提 到 東 突 厥 斯 坦 等 等 之 類 的 但 現 在 很 大 的 一 個 問 題 是 只 要 有 簽 這 些 東 西 其 實 大 部 分 是 不 對 外 公 開 的 我 們 一 般 人 無 法 得 知\n\n16\n00:05:50,593 --> 00:06:10,403\n演 藝 工 作 者 在 這 個 方 面 他 的 經 紀 公 司 簽 這 個 我 們 也 不 知 道 所 以 變 成 說 就 是 我 在 第 三 個 點 這 邊 想 要 問 的 事 情 是 說 這 個 事 情 可 能 對 我 們 來 講 變 得 越 來 越 重 要 是 因 為 對 國 人 來 講 或 者 對 新 戰 來 講 我 們 今 天 要 知 道 哪 些 人 是 被 威 脅 的 他 可 能 是 不 得 已 的 哪 些 人 是 自 願 跪 上 去 的\n\n17\n00:06:10,903 --> 00:06:29,977\n這 個 其 實 對 國 人 的 這 個 認 知 是 不 太 一 樣 的 但 我 們 的 雖 然 法 律 並 沒 有 強 制 的 規 定 但 目 前 來 講 中 國 跟 這 些 人 的 接 觸 是 不 透 明 的 所 以 我 們 會 搞 不 清 楚 到 底 哪 些 人 被 威 脅 哪 些 人 不 是 被 威 脅 這 種 細 緻 的 差 別 呢 可 能 需 要 讓 國 人 知 道 但 不 知 道 在 以 國 安 單 位 的 立 場 來 講\n\n18\n00:06:31,098 --> 00:06:47,957\n有 沒 有 可 能 對 法 律 提 供 一 些 建 議 , 雖 然 這 是 立 法 委 員 的 責 任 , 但 是 行 政 單 位 一 直 以 來 都 有 這 個 法 案 的 一 個 草 擬 的 權 利 , 就 是 說 我 們 有 沒 有 可 能 讓 這 些 事 情 更 容 易 的 被 揭 露 , 但 是 又 不 會 侵 害 到 人 權 , 也 不 會 侵 害 到 這 個 很 多 人 念 茲 在 茲 所 謂 的 兩 岸 交 流 ?\n\n19\n00:06:48,536 --> 00:07:08,242\n對 這 也 是 一 開 始 我 在 回 答 委 員 這 個 問 題 第 一 時 間 就 在 提 醒 的 就 是 我 們 不 適 合 針 對 個 案 或 個 人 來 做 一 些 評 論 因 為 會 影 響 他 在 大 陸 可 能 被 相 關 單 位 來 接 觸 跟 施 壓 就 我 們 來 講 我 們 比 較 能 夠 來 多 外 說 明 的 還 是 在 於 他 的 一 個 施 壓 的 一 個 樣 態 那 也 感 謝 委 員 我 一 開 始 在 謝 謝 委 員\n\n20\n00:07:09,082 --> 00:07:34,374\n透 過 這 樣 的 一 個 提 問 讓 我 們 來 說 明 一 下 那 可 能 我 們 的 演 藝 人 員 不 只 演 藝 人 員 可 能 包 括 了 其 他 藝 文 工 作 者 或 是 甚 至 的 企 業 界 到 對 岸 去 你 要 經 商 求 學 可 能 都 面 臨 到 這 樣 的 施 壓 的 一 個 來 自 於 中 國 政 府 的 一 個 施 壓 的 一 個 手 法 那 讓 國 內 的 社 會 能 夠 了 解 這 樣 的 狀 況 那 在 進 行 兩 岸 交 流 的 時 候 也 能 夠 來 示 警 讓 相 關 單 位 可 以 注 意 到 這 種 中 共 政 治 操 作 的 手 法\n\n21\n00:07:35,494 --> 00:08:01,896\n謝 謝 因 為 這 個 就 是 我 覺 得 有 時 候 跟 我 們 政 戰 單 位 想 要 去 做 這 個 新 戰 的 防 護 有 很 高 的 關 係 那 很 希 望 之 後 對 於 政 戰 這 一 邊 跟 國 安 之 間 的 交 流 能 夠 更 多 不 過 這 個 之 後 我 會 再 來 問 國 防 部 那 我 拉 回 來 就 是 說 我 們 剛 剛 講 就 四 個 層 面 軍 事 層 面 、 政 治 層 面 政 治 層 面 就 包 含 外 交 、 資 訊 層 面 、 經 濟 層 面 那 經 濟 層 面 我 放 在 最 後 就 是 因 為 很 明 顯 這 一 次 經 濟 層 面 是 比 較 少 的\n\n22\n00:08:02,656 --> 00:08:17,651\n這 跟 中 國 去 年 一 整 年 以 來 的 作 為 其 實 是 蠻 類 似 的 他 們 經 濟 的 實 力 其 實 是 一 直 在 往 下 掉 所 以 在 經 濟 要 做 一 些 制 裁 等 等 之 類 的 這 個 是 弱 化 的 所 以 變 成 來 講 他 的 經 濟 可 能 會 更 偏 向 統 戰 這 一 塊 譬 如 說 他 可 能 在 台 灣 想 要 推 資 金 區\n\n23\n00:08:18,932 --> 00:08:33,383\n或 者 說 最 近 在 馬 祖 發 這 些 卡 等 等 之 類 的 藉 由 一 些 比 較 小 恩 小 惠 的 一 些 經 濟 或 者 跟 我 們 台 灣 的 地 方 政 府 去 簽 訂 相 關 的 協 定 把 一 個 經 濟 的 區 域 範 圍 劃 出 來 有 可 能 是 相 較 於 以 往 他 們 做 那 種 經 濟 制 裁 可 能 會 變 得 更 多\n\n24\n00:08:34,704 --> 00:09:02,371\n他 這 個 力 道 變 少 之 後 其 實 照 理 說 在 資 訊 世 界 是 他 最 沒 有 成 本 的 相 較 於 外 交 他 需 要 發 很 多 成 本 那 他 資 訊 世 界 如 果 他 是 需 要 比 較 低 成 本 的 照 理 說 資 訊 世 界 的 攻 擊 應 該 變 得 更 多 那 因 為 我 們 自 己 民 間 平 常 本 來 就 有 在 做 這 些 資 料 的 分 析 那 第 一 件 事 情 我 想 問 就 是 剛 剛 在 問 的 問 題 其 實 也 是 跟 這 個 有 關 就 是 這 一 次 不 管 是 假 消 息 的 散 播 等 等 之 類 的 相 較 於 四 年 前 那 一 次 5 2 0 比 起 來\n\n25\n00:09:04,051 --> 00:09:29,421\n國 安 單 位 這 邊 是 覺 得 是 比 較 多 還 是 持 平 還 是 反 而 是 變 少 就 這 一 次 的 5 2 0 就 職 的 期 間 我 剛 剛 也 跟 委 員 所 提 到 了 那 有 注 意 到 社 群 媒 體 上 有 一 些 比 較 有 問 題 的 帳 號 或 是 一 次 性 的 帳 號 有 非 常 頻 密 的 在 散 佈 這 些 正 義 訊 息 那 一 開 始 在 進 入 會 場 也 跟 媒 體 朋 友 說 到 這 一 波 的 操 作 重 點 大 概 有 三 個 主 要 的 面 向 一 個 部 分 是 以 美\n\n26\n00:09:29,821 --> 00:09:31,382\n有 不 同 的 社 群 媒 體 的 平 台 或 假 帳 號 、 問 題 帳 號 來 進 行 散 布 。\n\n27\n00:09:54,672 --> 00:10:11,657\n因 為 我 們 這 次 看 到 呢 其 實 外 交 做 得 蠻 多 的 那 軍 事 當 然 不 用 講 就 是 一 直 以 來 都 是 這 個 樣 子 所 以 我 軍 事 可 能 放 在 後 面 所 以 呢 我 一 直 我 現 在 會 認 為 說 在 資 訊 世 界 本 身 的 一 個 操 作 看 起 來 有 跟 以 前 不 一 樣 的 地 方 我 們 自 己 看 是 覺 得 反 而 有 些 地 方 是 變 少 的\n\n28\n00:10:12,137 --> 00:10:30,536\n他 比 較 集 中 可 能 跟 俄 羅 斯 比 較 像 就 是 有 點 這 個 精 準 打 擊 那 這 個 不 知 道 因 為 畢 竟 戰 略 支 援 部 隊 最 近 有 產 生 重 組 重 組 之 後 呢 到 底 誰 負 責 什 麼 駭 客 到 底 有 沒 有 負 責 到 假 消 息 還 是 他 們 就 在 隔 壁 互 相 分 享 資 訊 還 是 說 呢 他 們 完 全 是 分 開 的 團 隊 現 在 是 非 常 不 明 朗 的\n\n29\n00:10:30,916 --> 00:10:49,486\n所 以 我 在 這 邊 還 是 建 議 就 是 說 呢 可 能 對 於 他 們 這 個 信 息 支 援 部 隊 跟 網 路 空 間 部 隊 尤 其 是 這 兩 個 到 底 現 在 誰 在 主 導 然 後 他 主 導 的 節 奏 是 什 麼 因 為 我 覺 得 很 明 顯 跟 之 前 有 點 不 同 那 這 個 可 能 是 之 後 要 掌 握 的 那 也 希 望 在 下 一 次 質 詢 的 時 候 呢 我 們 可 以 針 對 這 一 點 再 往 下 然 後 也 讓 國 人 知 道\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t410\t國安局局長\n15171\t33749\t好,那我就針對今天的題目就是就職這一個方面來討論一下那就是說根據我們這個在五二年還沒到之前我們還是很關注中國的這一個灰色地帶作戰那粗略來講還是都是分那幾類嘛一個軍事的然後呢政治的然後還有information就是跟資訊有關的還有經濟\n36250\t55579\t在之前的這些分析當中這四大類多少還是有一些此消彼長的關係他有時候很少說四管齊下那這一次我們在觀察的時候就有發現幾個比較異樣的地方當然第一個就是在資訊世界裡面對我們來講一開始除了一般的假消息之外我們關心的應該是關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊\n58840\t63942\t關鍵基礎設施對關鍵基礎設施的攻擊看起來是在,看起來買了一些未爆彈,所以一開始想先問一下局長就是說,我們先就資訊這一塊來講,目前掌握的狀況是如何,能夠講的\n77926\t96596\t這大概資訊的部分有兩部分一個部分是爭議訊息的散播那在演習的這兩天我們確實注意到網路有一些有問題的帳號有刻意的在散播一些爭議訊息那我在剛剛會前也跟媒體朋友有說明過那操作重點放在移美、移軍跟移賴\n97576\t125456\t這是這一波爭議訊息操作的重點那相關的爭議訊息的問題我們有都通報到相關部會來做必要的回應跟處理第二部分是在治安的攻擊方面那攻擊的次數在520當天有稍微增加一點然後520之後有降低到了軍演的523又稍微高一點那但是這些攻擊都沒有達成有效的攻擊侵害的一個成果但是數字上我們有在觀察那個變化趨勢\n126677\t154613\t對,那這個也是跟我自己在觀察的現象應該是蠻類似的尤其是資安這一方面那但是剛剛有講過就是說他有兩波嘛一波當然是在520之後然後後來減少後來又再增加那這跟剛剛這個王定宇委員其實也有提到的跟這個後面他還沒有問完就是跟這個人民日報的這個所作所為可能有一點關係就是說他在整體輿論方面520當然對他來講是重要的一個輿論操作但很明顯的過了幾天之後呢這個人民日報\n155433\t181689\t看起來跟對台鷹派可能是比較類似一點也就是說他發動了新的攻擊那我覺得這一件事情對我們在做國安的研判來講看起來是一個警訊那我先往下看一下其他的方面就是說呢當然在這邊有一個就是大量的這個跟藝人的表態是有關係的所以他算是本來的統戰網絡那這個應該是今天很多人都已經問過這個我就不多說他有大量的一個散佈\n182990\t212612\t但是呢就是說除了這個所謂的用這種台獨工作者這樣的一個方式呢他去形成一個對比一方面有人是支持統一然後去抨擊台獨工作者去貼上一個標籤那我現在比較擔心的事情呢就是在往下這一邊因為藝人呢就我們以前的研究來講他一直以來呢他可能會慢慢一步一步的先跟你講說你是不支持台獨你反對台獨一直到你不反對統一到支持統一他會有一步一步的往下嘛\n213052\t241713\t但因為藝人是對外的所以他們來講是一個統戰的樣板但因為整個影視的產業鏈不是只有藝人一個人而已它包含背後的這個經紀公司等等之類的還有一些可能比較不喜歡出面的導演所以就是在第二個步驟目前來講他們統戰給予利益對外的這個部分我們是看得見的那對於娛樂產業這個幕後的這些工作者的壓迫的形式看起來有可能今年會變得越來越多那不知道國安單位對這個部分的掌握是如何\n242393\t252922\t謝謝委員提到這個問題但先跟委員說明一下因為以關單位的立場來講我們不適合去評論個別的藝人因為我們的評論會造成他對我們看整體的娛樂產業整體的娛樂產業大概壓迫的形式有幾種一種是會請藝人或經濟公司來簽署相關的認同書這包括要認同九個共識一個中國\n263570\t263710\t沈伯洋議員\n291064\t291304\t沈伯洋\n308137\t323792\t那剛剛有提到第一個是跟演藝活動有關再來跟查稅有關然後跟簽認同書有關那簽認同書這個我們在軍方其實也很常看到他都不只是認同書還包含投降書所以這邊再拉回來就是說他對台的這些其他的統戰工作譬如說假設今天是學校\n324292\t349833\t像之前學校有些會有終身的交換嘛雖然這是教育部在管轄的事情但他們在跟這些中國的這些學校在簽的時候呢他可能也會簽說那我們在交換的同時呢你們的這個中國的學生在我們這邊我們確保我們的教授不會提到法輪功不會提到東突厥斯坦等等之類的但現在很大的一個問題是只要有簽這些東西其實大部分是不對外公開的我們一般人無法得知\n350593\t370403\t演藝工作者在這個方面他的經紀公司簽這個我們也不知道所以變成說就是我在第三個點這邊想要問的事情是說這個事情可能對我們來講變得越來越重要是因為對國人來講或者對新戰來講我們今天要知道哪些人是被威脅的他可能是不得已的哪些人是自願跪上去的\n370903\t389977\t這個其實對國人的這個認知是不太一樣的但我們的雖然法律並沒有強制的規定但目前來講中國跟這些人的接觸是不透明的所以我們會搞不清楚到底哪些人被威脅哪些人不是被威脅這種細緻的差別呢可能需要讓國人知道但不知道在以國安單位的立場來講\n391098\t407957\t有沒有可能對法律提供一些建議,雖然這是立法委員的責任,但是行政單位一直以來都有這個法案的一個草擬的權利,就是說我們有沒有可能讓這些事情更容易的被揭露,但是又不會侵害到人權,也不會侵害到這個很多人念茲在茲所謂的兩岸交流?\n408536\t428242\t對這也是一開始我在回答委員這個問題第一時間就在提醒的就是我們不適合針對個案或個人來做一些評論因為會影響他在大陸可能被相關單位來接觸跟施壓就我們來講我們比較能夠來多外說明的還是在於他的一個施壓的一個樣態那也感謝委員我一開始在謝謝委員\n429082\t454374\t透過這樣的一個提問讓我們來說明一下那可能我們的演藝人員不只演藝人員可能包括了其他藝文工作者或是甚至的企業界到對岸去你要經商求學可能都面臨到這樣的施壓的一個來自於中國政府的一個施壓的一個手法那讓國內的社會能夠了解這樣的狀況那在進行兩岸交流的時候也能夠來示警讓相關單位可以注意到這種中共政治操作的手法\n455494\t481896\t謝謝 因為這個就是我覺得有時候跟我們政戰單位想要去做這個新戰的防護有很高的關係那很希望之後對於政戰這一邊跟國安之間的交流能夠更多不過這個之後我會再來問國防部那我拉回來就是說我們剛剛講就四個層面軍事層面、政治層面政治層面就包含外交、資訊層面、經濟層面那經濟層面我放在最後就是因為很明顯這一次經濟層面是比較少的\n482656\t497651\t這跟中國去年一整年以來的作為其實是蠻類似的他們經濟的實力其實是一直在往下掉所以在經濟要做一些制裁等等之類的這個是弱化的所以變成來講他的經濟可能會更偏向統戰這一塊譬如說他可能在台灣想要推資金區\n498932\t513383\t或者說最近在馬祖發這些卡等等之類的藉由一些比較小恩小惠的一些經濟或者跟我們台灣的地方政府去簽訂相關的協定把一個經濟的區域範圍劃出來有可能是相較於以往他們做那種經濟制裁可能會變得更多\n514704\t542371\t他這個力道變少之後其實照理說在資訊世界是他最沒有成本的相較於外交他需要發很多成本那他資訊世界如果他是需要比較低成本的照理說資訊世界的攻擊應該變得更多那因為我們自己民間平常本來就有在做這些資料的分析那第一件事情我想問就是剛剛在問的問題其實也是跟這個有關就是這一次不管是假消息的散播等等之類的相較於四年前那一次520比起來\n544051\t569421\t國安單位這邊是覺得是比較多還是持平還是反而是變少就這一次的520就職的期間我剛剛也跟委員所提到了那有注意到社群媒體上有一些比較有問題的帳號或是一次性的帳號有非常頻密的在散佈這些正義訊息那一開始在進入會場也跟媒體朋友說到這一波的操作重點大概有三個主要的面向一個部分是以美\n569821\t571382\t有不同的社群媒體的平台或假帳號、問題帳號來進行散布。\n594672\t611657\t因為我們這次看到呢其實外交做得蠻多的那軍事當然不用講就是一直以來都是這個樣子所以我軍事可能放在後面所以呢我一直我現在會認為說在資訊世界本身的一個操作看起來有跟以前不一樣的地方我們自己看是覺得反而有些地方是變少的\n612137\t630536\t他比較集中可能跟俄羅斯比較像就是有點這個精準打擊那這個不知道因為畢竟戰略支援部隊最近有產生重組重組之後呢到底誰負責什麼駭客到底有沒有負責到假消息還是他們就在隔壁互相分享資訊還是說呢他們完全是分開的團隊現在是非常不明朗的\n630916\t649486\t所以我在這邊還是建議就是說呢可能對於他們這個信息支援部隊跟網路空間部隊尤其是這兩個到底現在誰在主導然後他主導的節奏是什麼因為我覺得很明顯跟之前有點不同那這個可能是之後要掌握的那也希望在下一次質詢的時候呢我們可以針對這一點再往下然後也讓國人知道\n","txt":"國安局局長\n好,那我就針對今天的題目就是就職這一個方面來討論一下那就是說根據我們這個在五二年還沒到之前我們還是很關注中國的這一個灰色地帶作戰那粗略來講還是都是分那幾類嘛一個軍事的然後呢政治的然後還有information就是跟資訊有關的還有經濟\n在之前的這些分析當中這四大類多少還是有一些此消彼長的關係他有時候很少說四管齊下那這一次我們在觀察的時候就有發現幾個比較異樣的地方當然第一個就是在資訊世界裡面對我們來講一開始除了一般的假消息之外我們關心的應該是關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊\n關鍵基礎設施對關鍵基礎設施的攻擊看起來是在,看起來買了一些未爆彈,所以一開始想先問一下局長就是說,我們先就資訊這一塊來講,目前掌握的狀況是如何,能夠講的\n這大概資訊的部分有兩部分一個部分是爭議訊息的散播那在演習的這兩天我們確實注意到網路有一些有問題的帳號有刻意的在散播一些爭議訊息那我在剛剛會前也跟媒體朋友有說明過那操作重點放在移美、移軍跟移賴\n這是這一波爭議訊息操作的重點那相關的爭議訊息的問題我們有都通報到相關部會來做必要的回應跟處理第二部分是在治安的攻擊方面那攻擊的次數在520當天有稍微增加一點然後520之後有降低到了軍演的523又稍微高一點那但是這些攻擊都沒有達成有效的攻擊侵害的一個成果但是數字上我們有在觀察那個變化趨勢\n對,那這個也是跟我自己在觀察的現象應該是蠻類似的尤其是資安這一方面那但是剛剛有講過就是說他有兩波嘛一波當然是在520之後然後後來減少後來又再增加那這跟剛剛這個王定宇委員其實也有提到的跟這個後面他還沒有問完就是跟這個人民日報的這個所作所為可能有一點關係就是說他在整體輿論方面520當然對他來講是重要的一個輿論操作但很明顯的過了幾天之後呢這個人民日報\n看起來跟對台鷹派可能是比較類似一點也就是說他發動了新的攻擊那我覺得這一件事情對我們在做國安的研判來講看起來是一個警訊那我先往下看一下其他的方面就是說呢當然在這邊有一個就是大量的這個跟藝人的表態是有關係的所以他算是本來的統戰網絡那這個應該是今天很多人都已經問過這個我就不多說他有大量的一個散佈\n但是呢就是說除了這個所謂的用這種台獨工作者這樣的一個方式呢他去形成一個對比一方面有人是支持統一然後去抨擊台獨工作者去貼上一個標籤那我現在比較擔心的事情呢就是在往下這一邊因為藝人呢就我們以前的研究來講他一直以來呢他可能會慢慢一步一步的先跟你講說你是不支持台獨你反對台獨一直到你不反對統一到支持統一他會有一步一步的往下嘛\n但因為藝人是對外的所以他們來講是一個統戰的樣板但因為整個影視的產業鏈不是只有藝人一個人而已它包含背後的這個經紀公司等等之類的還有一些可能比較不喜歡出面的導演所以就是在第二個步驟目前來講他們統戰給予利益對外的這個部分我們是看得見的那對於娛樂產業這個幕後的這些工作者的壓迫的形式看起來有可能今年會變得越來越多那不知道國安單位對這個部分的掌握是如何\n謝謝委員提到這個問題但先跟委員說明一下因為以關單位的立場來講我們不適合去評論個別的藝人因為我們的評論會造成他對我們看整體的娛樂產業整體的娛樂產業大概壓迫的形式有幾種一種是會請藝人或經濟公司來簽署相關的認同書這包括要認同九個共識一個中國\n沈伯洋議員\n沈伯洋\n那剛剛有提到第一個是跟演藝活動有關再來跟查稅有關然後跟簽認同書有關那簽認同書這個我們在軍方其實也很常看到他都不只是認同書還包含投降書所以這邊再拉回來就是說他對台的這些其他的統戰工作譬如說假設今天是學校\n像之前學校有些會有終身的交換嘛雖然這是教育部在管轄的事情但他們在跟這些中國的這些學校在簽的時候呢他可能也會簽說那我們在交換的同時呢你們的這個中國的學生在我們這邊我們確保我們的教授不會提到法輪功不會提到東突厥斯坦等等之類的但現在很大的一個問題是只要有簽這些東西其實大部分是不對外公開的我們一般人無法得知\n演藝工作者在這個方面他的經紀公司簽這個我們也不知道所以變成說就是我在第三個點這邊想要問的事情是說這個事情可能對我們來講變得越來越重要是因為對國人來講或者對新戰來講我們今天要知道哪些人是被威脅的他可能是不得已的哪些人是自願跪上去的\n這個其實對國人的這個認知是不太一樣的但我們的雖然法律並沒有強制的規定但目前來講中國跟這些人的接觸是不透明的所以我們會搞不清楚到底哪些人被威脅哪些人不是被威脅這種細緻的差別呢可能需要讓國人知道但不知道在以國安單位的立場來講\n有沒有可能對法律提供一些建議,雖然這是立法委員的責任,但是行政單位一直以來都有這個法案的一個草擬的權利,就是說我們有沒有可能讓這些事情更容易的被揭露,但是又不會侵害到人權,也不會侵害到這個很多人念茲在茲所謂的兩岸交流?\n對這也是一開始我在回答委員這個問題第一時間就在提醒的就是我們不適合針對個案或個人來做一些評論因為會影響他在大陸可能被相關單位來接觸跟施壓就我們來講我們比較能夠來多外說明的還是在於他的一個施壓的一個樣態那也感謝委員我一開始在謝謝委員\n透過這樣的一個提問讓我們來說明一下那可能我們的演藝人員不只演藝人員可能包括了其他藝文工作者或是甚至的企業界到對岸去你要經商求學可能都面臨到這樣的施壓的一個來自於中國政府的一個施壓的一個手法那讓國內的社會能夠了解這樣的狀況那在進行兩岸交流的時候也能夠來示警讓相關單位可以注意到這種中共政治操作的手法\n謝謝 因為這個就是我覺得有時候跟我們政戰單位想要去做這個新戰的防護有很高的關係那很希望之後對於政戰這一邊跟國安之間的交流能夠更多不過這個之後我會再來問國防部那我拉回來就是說我們剛剛講就四個層面軍事層面、政治層面政治層面就包含外交、資訊層面、經濟層面那經濟層面我放在最後就是因為很明顯這一次經濟層面是比較少的\n這跟中國去年一整年以來的作為其實是蠻類似的他們經濟的實力其實是一直在往下掉所以在經濟要做一些制裁等等之類的這個是弱化的所以變成來講他的經濟可能會更偏向統戰這一塊譬如說他可能在台灣想要推資金區\n或者說最近在馬祖發這些卡等等之類的藉由一些比較小恩小惠的一些經濟或者跟我們台灣的地方政府去簽訂相關的協定把一個經濟的區域範圍劃出來有可能是相較於以往他們做那種經濟制裁可能會變得更多\n他這個力道變少之後其實照理說在資訊世界是他最沒有成本的相較於外交他需要發很多成本那他資訊世界如果他是需要比較低成本的照理說資訊世界的攻擊應該變得更多那因為我們自己民間平常本來就有在做這些資料的分析那第一件事情我想問就是剛剛在問的問題其實也是跟這個有關就是這一次不管是假消息的散播等等之類的相較於四年前那一次520比起來\n國安單位這邊是覺得是比較多還是持平還是反而是變少就這一次的520就職的期間我剛剛也跟委員所提到了那有注意到社群媒體上有一些比較有問題的帳號或是一次性的帳號有非常頻密的在散佈這些正義訊息那一開始在進入會場也跟媒體朋友說到這一波的操作重點大概有三個主要的面向一個部分是以美\n有不同的社群媒體的平台或假帳號、問題帳號來進行散布。\n因為我們這次看到呢其實外交做得蠻多的那軍事當然不用講就是一直以來都是這個樣子所以我軍事可能放在後面所以呢我一直我現在會認為說在資訊世界本身的一個操作看起來有跟以前不一樣的地方我們自己看是覺得反而有些地方是變少的\n他比較集中可能跟俄羅斯比較像就是有點這個精準打擊那這個不知道因為畢竟戰略支援部隊最近有產生重組重組之後呢到底誰負責什麼駭客到底有沒有負責到假消息還是他們就在隔壁互相分享資訊還是說呢他們完全是分開的團隊現在是非常不明朗的\n所以我在這邊還是建議就是說呢可能對於他們這個信息支援部隊跟網路空間部隊尤其是這兩個到底現在誰在主導然後他主導的節奏是什麼因為我覺得很明顯跟之前有點不同那這個可能是之後要掌握的那也希望在下一次質詢的時候呢我們可以針對這一點再往下然後也讓國人知道\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:00.410\n國 安 局 局 長\n\n00:15.171 --> 00:33.749\n好 , 那 我 就 針 對 今 天 的 題 目 就 是 就 職 這 一 個 方 面 來 討 論 一 下 那 就 是 說 根 據 我 們 這 個 在 五 二 年 還 沒 到 之 前 我 們 還 是 很 關 注 中 國 的 這 一 個 灰 色 地 帶 作 戰 那 粗 略 來 講 還 是 都 是 分 那 幾 類 嘛 一 個 軍 事 的 然 後 呢 政 治 的 然 後 還 有 i n f o r m a t i o n 就 是 跟 資 訊 有 關 的 還 有 經 濟\n\n00:36.250 --> 00:55.579\n在 之 前 的 這 些 分 析 當 中 這 四 大 類 多 少 還 是 有 一 些 此 消 彼 長 的 關 係 他 有 時 候 很 少 說 四 管 齊 下 那 這 一 次 我 們 在 觀 察 的 時 候 就 有 發 現 幾 個 比 較 異 樣 的 地 方 當 然 第 一 個 就 是 在 資 訊 世 界 裡 面 對 我 們 來 講 一 開 始 除 了 一 般 的 假 消 息 之 外 我 們 關 心 的 應 該 是 關 鍵 基 礎 設 施 的 一 個 攻 擊\n\n00:58.840 --> 01:03.942\n關 鍵 基 礎 設 施 對 關 鍵 基 礎 設 施 的 攻 擊 看 起 來 是 在 , 看 起 來 買 了 一 些 未 爆 彈 , 所 以 一 開 始 想 先 問 一 下 局 長 就 是 說 , 我 們 先 就 資 訊 這 一 塊 來 講 , 目 前 掌 握 的 狀 況 是 如 何 , 能 夠 講 的\n\n01:17.926 --> 01:36.596\n這 大 概 資 訊 的 部 分 有 兩 部 分 一 個 部 分 是 爭 議 訊 息 的 散 播 那 在 演 習 的 這 兩 天 我 們 確 實 注 意 到 網 路 有 一 些 有 問 題 的 帳 號 有 刻 意 的 在 散 播 一 些 爭 議 訊 息 那 我 在 剛 剛 會 前 也 跟 媒 體 朋 友 有 說 明 過 那 操 作 重 點 放 在 移 美 、 移 軍 跟 移 賴\n\n01:37.576 --> 02:05.456\n這 是 這 一 波 爭 議 訊 息 操 作 的 重 點 那 相 關 的 爭 議 訊 息 的 問 題 我 們 有 都 通 報 到 相 關 部 會 來 做 必 要 的 回 應 跟 處 理 第 二 部 分 是 在 治 安 的 攻 擊 方 面 那 攻 擊 的 次 數 在 5 2 0 當 天 有 稍 微 增 加 一 點 然 後 5 2 0 之 後 有 降 低 到 了 軍 演 的 5 2 3 又 稍 微 高 一 點 那 但 是 這 些 攻 擊 都 沒 有 達 成 有 效 的 攻 擊 侵 害 的 一 個 成 果 但 是 數 字 上 我 們 有 在 觀 察 那 個 變 化 趨 勢\n\n02:06.677 --> 02:34.613\n對 , 那 這 個 也 是 跟 我 自 己 在 觀 察 的 現 象 應 該 是 蠻 類 似 的 尤 其 是 資 安 這 一 方 面 那 但 是 剛 剛 有 講 過 就 是 說 他 有 兩 波 嘛 一 波 當 然 是 在 5 2 0 之 後 然 後 後 來 減 少 後 來 又 再 增 加 那 這 跟 剛 剛 這 個 王 定 宇 委 員 其 實 也 有 提 到 的 跟 這 個 後 面 他 還 沒 有 問 完 就 是 跟 這 個 人 民 日 報 的 這 個 所 作 所 為 可 能 有 一 點 關 係 就 是 說 他 在 整 體 輿 論 方 面 5 2 0 當 然 對 他 來 講 是 重 要 的 一 個 輿 論 操 作 但 很 明 顯 的 過 了 幾 天 之 後 呢 這 個 人 民 日 報\n\n02:35.433 --> 03:01.689\n看 起 來 跟 對 台 鷹 派 可 能 是 比 較 類 似 一 點 也 就 是 說 他 發 動 了 新 的 攻 擊 那 我 覺 得 這 一 件 事 情 對 我 們 在 做 國 安 的 研 判 來 講 看 起 來 是 一 個 警 訊 那 我 先 往 下 看 一 下 其 他 的 方 面 就 是 說 呢 當 然 在 這 邊 有 一 個 就 是 大 量 的 這 個 跟 藝 人 的 表 態 是 有 關 係 的 所 以 他 算 是 本 來 的 統 戰 網 絡 那 這 個 應 該 是 今 天 很 多 人 都 已 經 問 過 這 個 我 就 不 多 說 他 有 大 量 的 一 個 散 佈\n\n03:02.990 --> 03:32.612\n但 是 呢 就 是 說 除 了 這 個 所 謂 的 用 這 種 台 獨 工 作 者 這 樣 的 一 個 方 式 呢 他 去 形 成 一 個 對 比 一 方 面 有 人 是 支 持 統 一 然 後 去 抨 擊 台 獨 工 作 者 去 貼 上 一 個 標 籤 那 我 現 在 比 較 擔 心 的 事 情 呢 就 是 在 往 下 這 一 邊 因 為 藝 人 呢 就 我 們 以 前 的 研 究 來 講 他 一 直 以 來 呢 他 可 能 會 慢 慢 一 步 一 步 的 先 跟 你 講 說 你 是 不 支 持 台 獨 你 反 對 台 獨 一 直 到 你 不 反 對 統 一 到 支 持 統 一 他 會 有 一 步 一 步 的 往 下 嘛\n\n03:33.052 --> 04:01.713\n但 因 為 藝 人 是 對 外 的 所 以 他 們 來 講 是 一 個 統 戰 的 樣 板 但 因 為 整 個 影 視 的 產 業 鏈 不 是 只 有 藝 人 一 個 人 而 已 它 包 含 背 後 的 這 個 經 紀 公 司 等 等 之 類 的 還 有 一 些 可 能 比 較 不 喜 歡 出 面 的 導 演 所 以 就 是 在 第 二 個 步 驟 目 前 來 講 他 們 統 戰 給 予 利 益 對 外 的 這 個 部 分 我 們 是 看 得 見 的 那 對 於 娛 樂 產 業 這 個 幕 後 的 這 些 工 作 者 的 壓 迫 的 形 式 看 起 來 有 可 能 今 年 會 變 得 越 來 越 多 那 不 知 道 國 安 單 位 對 這 個 部 分 的 掌 握 是 如 何\n\n04:02.393 --> 04:12.922\n謝 謝 委 員 提 到 這 個 問 題 但 先 跟 委 員 說 明 一 下 因 為 以 關 單 位 的 立 場 來 講 我 們 不 適 合 去 評 論 個 別 的 藝 人 因 為 我 們 的 評 論 會 造 成 他 對 我 們 看 整 體 的 娛 樂 產 業 整 體 的 娛 樂 產 業 大 概 壓 迫 的 形 式 有 幾 種 一 種 是 會 請 藝 人 或 經 濟 公 司 來 簽 署 相 關 的 認 同 書 這 包 括 要 認 同 九 個 共 識 一 個 中 國\n\n04:23.570 --> 04:23.710\n沈 伯 洋 議 員\n\n04:51.064 --> 04:51.304\n沈 伯 洋\n\n05:08.137 --> 05:23.792\n那 剛 剛 有 提 到 第 一 個 是 跟 演 藝 活 動 有 關 再 來 跟 查 稅 有 關 然 後 跟 簽 認 同 書 有 關 那 簽 認 同 書 這 個 我 們 在 軍 方 其 實 也 很 常 看 到 他 都 不 只 是 認 同 書 還 包 含 投 降 書 所 以 這 邊 再 拉 回 來 就 是 說 他 對 台 的 這 些 其 他 的 統 戰 工 作 譬 如 說 假 設 今 天 是 學 校\n\n05:24.292 --> 05:49.833\n像 之 前 學 校 有 些 會 有 終 身 的 交 換 嘛 雖 然 這 是 教 育 部 在 管 轄 的 事 情 但 他 們 在 跟 這 些 中 國 的 這 些 學 校 在 簽 的 時 候 呢 他 可 能 也 會 簽 說 那 我 們 在 交 換 的 同 時 呢 你 們 的 這 個 中 國 的 學 生 在 我 們 這 邊 我 們 確 保 我 們 的 教 授 不 會 提 到 法 輪 功 不 會 提 到 東 突 厥 斯 坦 等 等 之 類 的 但 現 在 很 大 的 一 個 問 題 是 只 要 有 簽 這 些 東 西 其 實 大 部 分 是 不 對 外 公 開 的 我 們 一 般 人 無 法 得 知\n\n05:50.593 --> 06:10.403\n演 藝 工 作 者 在 這 個 方 面 他 的 經 紀 公 司 簽 這 個 我 們 也 不 知 道 所 以 變 成 說 就 是 我 在 第 三 個 點 這 邊 想 要 問 的 事 情 是 說 這 個 事 情 可 能 對 我 們 來 講 變 得 越 來 越 重 要 是 因 為 對 國 人 來 講 或 者 對 新 戰 來 講 我 們 今 天 要 知 道 哪 些 人 是 被 威 脅 的 他 可 能 是 不 得 已 的 哪 些 人 是 自 願 跪 上 去 的\n\n06:10.903 --> 06:29.977\n這 個 其 實 對 國 人 的 這 個 認 知 是 不 太 一 樣 的 但 我 們 的 雖 然 法 律 並 沒 有 強 制 的 規 定 但 目 前 來 講 中 國 跟 這 些 人 的 接 觸 是 不 透 明 的 所 以 我 們 會 搞 不 清 楚 到 底 哪 些 人 被 威 脅 哪 些 人 不 是 被 威 脅 這 種 細 緻 的 差 別 呢 可 能 需 要 讓 國 人 知 道 但 不 知 道 在 以 國 安 單 位 的 立 場 來 講\n\n06:31.098 --> 06:47.957\n有 沒 有 可 能 對 法 律 提 供 一 些 建 議 , 雖 然 這 是 立 法 委 員 的 責 任 , 但 是 行 政 單 位 一 直 以 來 都 有 這 個 法 案 的 一 個 草 擬 的 權 利 , 就 是 說 我 們 有 沒 有 可 能 讓 這 些 事 情 更 容 易 的 被 揭 露 , 但 是 又 不 會 侵 害 到 人 權 , 也 不 會 侵 害 到 這 個 很 多 人 念 茲 在 茲 所 謂 的 兩 岸 交 流 ?\n\n06:48.536 --> 07:08.242\n對 這 也 是 一 開 始 我 在 回 答 委 員 這 個 問 題 第 一 時 間 就 在 提 醒 的 就 是 我 們 不 適 合 針 對 個 案 或 個 人 來 做 一 些 評 論 因 為 會 影 響 他 在 大 陸 可 能 被 相 關 單 位 來 接 觸 跟 施 壓 就 我 們 來 講 我 們 比 較 能 夠 來 多 外 說 明 的 還 是 在 於 他 的 一 個 施 壓 的 一 個 樣 態 那 也 感 謝 委 員 我 一 開 始 在 謝 謝 委 員\n\n07:09.082 --> 07:34.374\n透 過 這 樣 的 一 個 提 問 讓 我 們 來 說 明 一 下 那 可 能 我 們 的 演 藝 人 員 不 只 演 藝 人 員 可 能 包 括 了 其 他 藝 文 工 作 者 或 是 甚 至 的 企 業 界 到 對 岸 去 你 要 經 商 求 學 可 能 都 面 臨 到 這 樣 的 施 壓 的 一 個 來 自 於 中 國 政 府 的 一 個 施 壓 的 一 個 手 法 那 讓 國 內 的 社 會 能 夠 了 解 這 樣 的 狀 況 那 在 進 行 兩 岸 交 流 的 時 候 也 能 夠 來 示 警 讓 相 關 單 位 可 以 注 意 到 這 種 中 共 政 治 操 作 的 手 法\n\n07:35.494 --> 08:01.896\n謝 謝 因 為 這 個 就 是 我 覺 得 有 時 候 跟 我 們 政 戰 單 位 想 要 去 做 這 個 新 戰 的 防 護 有 很 高 的 關 係 那 很 希 望 之 後 對 於 政 戰 這 一 邊 跟 國 安 之 間 的 交 流 能 夠 更 多 不 過 這 個 之 後 我 會 再 來 問 國 防 部 那 我 拉 回 來 就 是 說 我 們 剛 剛 講 就 四 個 層 面 軍 事 層 面 、 政 治 層 面 政 治 層 面 就 包 含 外 交 、 資 訊 層 面 、 經 濟 層 面 那 經 濟 層 面 我 放 在 最 後 就 是 因 為 很 明 顯 這 一 次 經 濟 層 面 是 比 較 少 的\n\n08:02.656 --> 08:17.651\n這 跟 中 國 去 年 一 整 年 以 來 的 作 為 其 實 是 蠻 類 似 的 他 們 經 濟 的 實 力 其 實 是 一 直 在 往 下 掉 所 以 在 經 濟 要 做 一 些 制 裁 等 等 之 類 的 這 個 是 弱 化 的 所 以 變 成 來 講 他 的 經 濟 可 能 會 更 偏 向 統 戰 這 一 塊 譬 如 說 他 可 能 在 台 灣 想 要 推 資 金 區\n\n08:18.932 --> 08:33.383\n或 者 說 最 近 在 馬 祖 發 這 些 卡 等 等 之 類 的 藉 由 一 些 比 較 小 恩 小 惠 的 一 些 經 濟 或 者 跟 我 們 台 灣 的 地 方 政 府 去 簽 訂 相 關 的 協 定 把 一 個 經 濟 的 區 域 範 圍 劃 出 來 有 可 能 是 相 較 於 以 往 他 們 做 那 種 經 濟 制 裁 可 能 會 變 得 更 多\n\n08:34.704 --> 09:02.371\n他 這 個 力 道 變 少 之 後 其 實 照 理 說 在 資 訊 世 界 是 他 最 沒 有 成 本 的 相 較 於 外 交 他 需 要 發 很 多 成 本 那 他 資 訊 世 界 如 果 他 是 需 要 比 較 低 成 本 的 照 理 說 資 訊 世 界 的 攻 擊 應 該 變 得 更 多 那 因 為 我 們 自 己 民 間 平 常 本 來 就 有 在 做 這 些 資 料 的 分 析 那 第 一 件 事 情 我 想 問 就 是 剛 剛 在 問 的 問 題 其 實 也 是 跟 這 個 有 關 就 是 這 一 次 不 管 是 假 消 息 的 散 播 等 等 之 類 的 相 較 於 四 年 前 那 一 次 5 2 0 比 起 來\n\n09:04.051 --> 09:29.421\n國 安 單 位 這 邊 是 覺 得 是 比 較 多 還 是 持 平 還 是 反 而 是 變 少 就 這 一 次 的 5 2 0 就 職 的 期 間 我 剛 剛 也 跟 委 員 所 提 到 了 那 有 注 意 到 社 群 媒 體 上 有 一 些 比 較 有 問 題 的 帳 號 或 是 一 次 性 的 帳 號 有 非 常 頻 密 的 在 散 佈 這 些 正 義 訊 息 那 一 開 始 在 進 入 會 場 也 跟 媒 體 朋 友 說 到 這 一 波 的 操 作 重 點 大 概 有 三 個 主 要 的 面 向 一 個 部 分 是 以 美\n\n09:29.821 --> 09:31.382\n有 不 同 的 社 群 媒 體 的 平 台 或 假 帳 號 、 問 題 帳 號 來 進 行 散 布 。\n\n09:54.672 --> 10:11.657\n因 為 我 們 這 次 看 到 呢 其 實 外 交 做 得 蠻 多 的 那 軍 事 當 然 不 用 講 就 是 一 直 以 來 都 是 這 個 樣 子 所 以 我 軍 事 可 能 放 在 後 面 所 以 呢 我 一 直 我 現 在 會 認 為 說 在 資 訊 世 界 本 身 的 一 個 操 作 看 起 來 有 跟 以 前 不 一 樣 的 地 方 我 們 自 己 看 是 覺 得 反 而 有 些 地 方 是 變 少 的\n\n10:12.137 --> 10:30.536\n他 比 較 集 中 可 能 跟 俄 羅 斯 比 較 像 就 是 有 點 這 個 精 準 打 擊 那 這 個 不 知 道 因 為 畢 竟 戰 略 支 援 部 隊 最 近 有 產 生 重 組 重 組 之 後 呢 到 底 誰 負 責 什 麼 駭 客 到 底 有 沒 有 負 責 到 假 消 息 還 是 他 們 就 在 隔 壁 互 相 分 享 資 訊 還 是 說 呢 他 們 完 全 是 分 開 的 團 隊 現 在 是 非 常 不 明 朗 的\n\n10:30.916 --> 10:49.486\n所 以 我 在 這 邊 還 是 建 議 就 是 說 呢 可 能 對 於 他 們 這 個 信 息 支 援 部 隊 跟 網 路 空 間 部 隊 尤 其 是 這 兩 個 到 底 現 在 誰 在 主 導 然 後 他 主 導 的 節 奏 是 什 麼 因 為 我 覺 得 很 明 顯 跟 之 前 有 點 不 同 那 這 個 可 能 是 之 後 要 掌 握 的 那 也 希 望 在 下 一 次 質 詢 的 時 候 呢 我 們 可 以 針 對 這 一 點 再 往 下 然 後 也 讓 國 人 知 道\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.41,"text":"國安局局長"},{"start":15.171,"end":33.749,"text":"好,那我就針對今天的題目就是就職這一個方面來討論一下那就是說根據我們這個在五二年還沒到之前我們還是很關注中國的這一個灰色地帶作戰那粗略來講還是都是分那幾類嘛一個軍事的然後呢政治的然後還有information就是跟資訊有關的還有經濟"},{"start":36.25,"end":55.579,"text":"在之前的這些分析當中這四大類多少還是有一些此消彼長的關係他有時候很少說四管齊下那這一次我們在觀察的時候就有發現幾個比較異樣的地方當然第一個就是在資訊世界裡面對我們來講一開始除了一般的假消息之外我們關心的應該是關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊"},{"start":58.84,"end":63.942,"text":"關鍵基礎設施對關鍵基礎設施的攻擊看起來是在,看起來買了一些未爆彈,所以一開始想先問一下局長就是說,我們先就資訊這一塊來講,目前掌握的狀況是如何,能夠講的"},{"start":77.926,"end":96.596,"text":"這大概資訊的部分有兩部分一個部分是爭議訊息的散播那在演習的這兩天我們確實注意到網路有一些有問題的帳號有刻意的在散播一些爭議訊息那我在剛剛會前也跟媒體朋友有說明過那操作重點放在移美、移軍跟移賴"},{"start":97.576,"end":125.456,"text":"這是這一波爭議訊息操作的重點那相關的爭議訊息的問題我們有都通報到相關部會來做必要的回應跟處理第二部分是在治安的攻擊方面那攻擊的次數在520當天有稍微增加一點然後520之後有降低到了軍演的523又稍微高一點那但是這些攻擊都沒有達成有效的攻擊侵害的一個成果但是數字上我們有在觀察那個變化趨勢"},{"start":126.677,"end":154.613,"text":"對,那這個也是跟我自己在觀察的現象應該是蠻類似的尤其是資安這一方面那但是剛剛有講過就是說他有兩波嘛一波當然是在520之後然後後來減少後來又再增加那這跟剛剛這個王定宇委員其實也有提到的跟這個後面他還沒有問完就是跟這個人民日報的這個所作所為可能有一點關係就是說他在整體輿論方面520當然對他來講是重要的一個輿論操作但很明顯的過了幾天之後呢這個人民日報"},{"start":155.433,"end":181.689,"text":"看起來跟對台鷹派可能是比較類似一點也就是說他發動了新的攻擊那我覺得這一件事情對我們在做國安的研判來講看起來是一個警訊那我先往下看一下其他的方面就是說呢當然在這邊有一個就是大量的這個跟藝人的表態是有關係的所以他算是本來的統戰網絡那這個應該是今天很多人都已經問過這個我就不多說他有大量的一個散佈"},{"start":182.99,"end":212.612,"text":"但是呢就是說除了這個所謂的用這種台獨工作者這樣的一個方式呢他去形成一個對比一方面有人是支持統一然後去抨擊台獨工作者去貼上一個標籤那我現在比較擔心的事情呢就是在往下這一邊因為藝人呢就我們以前的研究來講他一直以來呢他可能會慢慢一步一步的先跟你講說你是不支持台獨你反對台獨一直到你不反對統一到支持統一他會有一步一步的往下嘛"},{"start":213.052,"end":241.713,"text":"但因為藝人是對外的所以他們來講是一個統戰的樣板但因為整個影視的產業鏈不是只有藝人一個人而已它包含背後的這個經紀公司等等之類的還有一些可能比較不喜歡出面的導演所以就是在第二個步驟目前來講他們統戰給予利益對外的這個部分我們是看得見的那對於娛樂產業這個幕後的這些工作者的壓迫的形式看起來有可能今年會變得越來越多那不知道國安單位對這個部分的掌握是如何"},{"start":242.393,"end":252.922,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個問題但先跟委員說明一下因為以關單位的立場來講我們不適合去評論個別的藝人因為我們的評論會造成他對我們看整體的娛樂產業整體的娛樂產業大概壓迫的形式有幾種一種是會請藝人或經濟公司來簽署相關的認同書這包括要認同九個共識一個中國"},{"start":263.57,"end":263.71,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":291.064,"end":291.304,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":308.137,"end":323.792,"text":"那剛剛有提到第一個是跟演藝活動有關再來跟查稅有關然後跟簽認同書有關那簽認同書這個我們在軍方其實也很常看到他都不只是認同書還包含投降書所以這邊再拉回來就是說他對台的這些其他的統戰工作譬如說假設今天是學校"},{"start":324.292,"end":349.833,"text":"像之前學校有些會有終身的交換嘛雖然這是教育部在管轄的事情但他們在跟這些中國的這些學校在簽的時候呢他可能也會簽說那我們在交換的同時呢你們的這個中國的學生在我們這邊我們確保我們的教授不會提到法輪功不會提到東突厥斯坦等等之類的但現在很大的一個問題是只要有簽這些東西其實大部分是不對外公開的我們一般人無法得知"},{"start":350.593,"end":370.403,"text":"演藝工作者在這個方面他的經紀公司簽這個我們也不知道所以變成說就是我在第三個點這邊想要問的事情是說這個事情可能對我們來講變得越來越重要是因為對國人來講或者對新戰來講我們今天要知道哪些人是被威脅的他可能是不得已的哪些人是自願跪上去的"},{"start":370.903,"end":389.977,"text":"這個其實對國人的這個認知是不太一樣的但我們的雖然法律並沒有強制的規定但目前來講中國跟這些人的接觸是不透明的所以我們會搞不清楚到底哪些人被威脅哪些人不是被威脅這種細緻的差別呢可能需要讓國人知道但不知道在以國安單位的立場來講"},{"start":391.098,"end":407.957,"text":"有沒有可能對法律提供一些建議,雖然這是立法委員的責任,但是行政單位一直以來都有這個法案的一個草擬的權利,就是說我們有沒有可能讓這些事情更容易的被揭露,但是又不會侵害到人權,也不會侵害到這個很多人念茲在茲所謂的兩岸交流?"},{"start":408.536,"end":428.242,"text":"對這也是一開始我在回答委員這個問題第一時間就在提醒的就是我們不適合針對個案或個人來做一些評論因為會影響他在大陸可能被相關單位來接觸跟施壓就我們來講我們比較能夠來多外說明的還是在於他的一個施壓的一個樣態那也感謝委員我一開始在謝謝委員"},{"start":429.082,"end":454.374,"text":"透過這樣的一個提問讓我們來說明一下那可能我們的演藝人員不只演藝人員可能包括了其他藝文工作者或是甚至的企業界到對岸去你要經商求學可能都面臨到這樣的施壓的一個來自於中國政府的一個施壓的一個手法那讓國內的社會能夠了解這樣的狀況那在進行兩岸交流的時候也能夠來示警讓相關單位可以注意到這種中共政治操作的手法"},{"start":455.494,"end":481.896,"text":"謝謝 因為這個就是我覺得有時候跟我們政戰單位想要去做這個新戰的防護有很高的關係那很希望之後對於政戰這一邊跟國安之間的交流能夠更多不過這個之後我會再來問國防部那我拉回來就是說我們剛剛講就四個層面軍事層面、政治層面政治層面就包含外交、資訊層面、經濟層面那經濟層面我放在最後就是因為很明顯這一次經濟層面是比較少的"},{"start":482.656,"end":497.651,"text":"這跟中國去年一整年以來的作為其實是蠻類似的他們經濟的實力其實是一直在往下掉所以在經濟要做一些制裁等等之類的這個是弱化的所以變成來講他的經濟可能會更偏向統戰這一塊譬如說他可能在台灣想要推資金區"},{"start":498.932,"end":513.383,"text":"或者說最近在馬祖發這些卡等等之類的藉由一些比較小恩小惠的一些經濟或者跟我們台灣的地方政府去簽訂相關的協定把一個經濟的區域範圍劃出來有可能是相較於以往他們做那種經濟制裁可能會變得更多"},{"start":514.704,"end":542.371,"text":"他這個力道變少之後其實照理說在資訊世界是他最沒有成本的相較於外交他需要發很多成本那他資訊世界如果他是需要比較低成本的照理說資訊世界的攻擊應該變得更多那因為我們自己民間平常本來就有在做這些資料的分析那第一件事情我想問就是剛剛在問的問題其實也是跟這個有關就是這一次不管是假消息的散播等等之類的相較於四年前那一次520比起來"},{"start":544.051,"end":569.421,"text":"國安單位這邊是覺得是比較多還是持平還是反而是變少就這一次的520就職的期間我剛剛也跟委員所提到了那有注意到社群媒體上有一些比較有問題的帳號或是一次性的帳號有非常頻密的在散佈這些正義訊息那一開始在進入會場也跟媒體朋友說到這一波的操作重點大概有三個主要的面向一個部分是以美"},{"start":569.821,"end":571.382,"text":"有不同的社群媒體的平台或假帳號、問題帳號來進行散布。"},{"start":594.672,"end":611.657,"text":"因為我們這次看到呢其實外交做得蠻多的那軍事當然不用講就是一直以來都是這個樣子所以我軍事可能放在後面所以呢我一直我現在會認為說在資訊世界本身的一個操作看起來有跟以前不一樣的地方我們自己看是覺得反而有些地方是變少的"},{"start":612.137,"end":630.536,"text":"他比較集中可能跟俄羅斯比較像就是有點這個精準打擊那這個不知道因為畢竟戰略支援部隊最近有產生重組重組之後呢到底誰負責什麼駭客到底有沒有負責到假消息還是他們就在隔壁互相分享資訊還是說呢他們完全是分開的團隊現在是非常不明朗的"},{"start":630.916,"end":649.486,"text":"所以我在這邊還是建議就是說呢可能對於他們這個信息支援部隊跟網路空間部隊尤其是這兩個到底現在誰在主導然後他主導的節奏是什麼因為我覺得很明顯跟之前有點不同那這個可能是之後要掌握的那也希望在下一次質詢的時候呢我們可以針對這一點再往下然後也讓國人知道"}]}}}}