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12:10:41","影片長度":"00:07:26","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":446,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:10:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T12:03:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":955,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（12時3分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請部長。"],["高金委員素梅：部長，辛苦了。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：本席在這個位置上曾經質詢過農委會，我提到臺灣的農業行政體系其實有非常多培養數十年的農業專才，像您一樣。你們精通臺灣農業的問題，你們也改良了世界一流的農業技術，可惜當時領導你們的政務官，他只是一個只有理論、沒有實踐的虛迷學者，把臺灣農業耽誤了好長一段。今天我非常樂見來自農試所的您能夠擔任部長這個職位，繼續跟臺灣的農民來一起打拼。","上週我看到了您接受媒體訪問的時候，提到農業是一門專業的產業，必須要用專業的方式來面對，要來處理這些所有問題，同時你要導入創意、創新，臺灣的農業才能夠不斷的進步。我非常的同意，我也贊同您非常願意去面對臺灣農民的問題，這也是過去我不斷地在這邊跟你探討原鄉農業議題的原因，我們以前曾經從原鄉基礎資料的盤點、數據的分析、部落農業的實踐方案、落實原鄉的食農教育，還有學校的營養午餐可以使用部落食材的這些問題。今天我們還是先從基礎資料的回顧來講，我也期盼部長和所有的農業部同仁，未來在原鄉的農業，尤其是農村部落的議題上，我們一起從制度面來解決這個問題，部長應該沒問題吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是，沒問題。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。我們來看一些臺灣目前的數據，可供糧食生產的土地面積大概是53萬公頃，這您比我清楚，其中有12.8萬公頃是位於山坡地的範圍，而位於山坡地範圍的合法農地、原住民的保留地就占了7.5萬公頃。更簡單的講，作為農糧生產的原住民保留地占全臺灣百分之十四，也占山坡地百分之五十九，而我們看到這些數據，它顯示什麼？顯示原鄉農業的重要，特別是每年的4月到10月，民眾非常熟悉，也是需求量最大的高麗菜，幾乎都是從高海拔的部落下來的，可是我們占比那麼高的部落農地，過去一直沒有被政府重視。","我們來看一下7.5萬公頃的原保地，過去全數是位於農田水利會的灌區外，這導致什麼呢？導致原住民的農民他需要自己往更深山的地方去拉水管，然後自己拉水管形成了什麼？你看一下這些圖片，我相信部長很清楚，在場的農業專家們你們也清楚。7.5萬公頃的原保地全數位於山坡地，但是農業部你們的補助項目卻是用平地農業為制定標準，這導致部落……我們種的果樹其實是需要錏管來支撐，可是我們的農糧署只能補助水泥柱給農民支撐果樹，這是不符合現實的狀況。然後再來看7.5萬公頃的原保地，全數也不屬於平地農路，我們是位於重劃區外，所以原住民部落的農民他根本沒有穩定的經費可以改善他的農路，我們只能靠什麼？水保署每四年一期辛苦的向行政院爭取來的所謂重劃區外緊急農路改善計畫，來修補部落的農路。","我們過去有很多的農業政策的補助，根本沒有思考到受益農戶的產值，今天我用很短的時間提出一個案例跟部長來交流。我們來看一下宜蘭縣大同鄉，它是全臺灣最重要的高麗菜產區，我們如果以蔬菜專區為例，1公里的農路預估包含10公頃的高麗菜田，而每公頃高麗菜的年產值如果以150萬元做計算的話，所以每做1公里的農路，可能是需要500萬的經費，這500萬的經費可以使用多久？20年啦！這20年造就了部落的產值大概是多少？20年然後1,500萬，我們看到這樣子加總起來是3億。更簡單的來講，就是我們的政府如果花500萬去把這個農路做好，它可以維持部落20年，總產值是3億的農業生產。所以今天我提了這幾個案例，因為時間非常的短，那麼過去我有跟你探討過原鄉的農業問題，我期待在部長的帶領之下，我們的農業部針對過去被政府遺忘的原鄉農業，能夠制定出符合部落農民需求的政策，可以嗎？部長，你有沒有什麼話要說？"],["陳部長駿季：我想謝謝委員的這些提問，以我的態度來講，我在處理原鄉原民部落的這些農業，除了要去考慮到農業問題以外，其實我更重視原民部落的這些原民本身，他守護這些山林的貢獻度，我覺得要從這個貢獻度去做某個程度的加值，所以我所有這些政策的誘因設計，它絕對不能只是從平地的原則就直接套在原民部落。包括你剛才講的，因為在山坡地、在比較高山地區農牧用地的部分，包括它的灌溉系統、它的水路系統都應該被特別的重視。雖然您剛才講7.5萬公頃，我的資料還有坡地的部分大概有16萬公頃，也是一個重要的農業生產區，所以後續我想針對原民部落的政策，我會有一個特殊的輔導措施，去達到一些您還有所有原住民所期待的，包括它的灌溉系統，它是灌區外的灌溉系統，它的農路的部分、它的設施的補助項目跟樣態，我想這個部分，我們都會來處理，而且是用原民部落對於森林地區守護的貢獻度，從這個角度出發去設計不一樣的。"],["高金委員素梅：非常好，我想我們原住民的族人終於等到了一位好的部長、接地氣的部長，所以這個部分我會持續地來追蹤部長，也希望你在公務繁忙的時候也記得原住民這一塊農業的部分，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝您。"],["主席：因為我們臺中也有和平區，部長剛才講的這個是我們很關心的，以前我記得為什麼我們直轄市的區長……原住民鄉長還是用選的，因為他們講了一句話，當時我當書記長，他講一句話說：「我要的你不要給我，你要的我又不要，我要這個幹什麼？」我覺得非常有道理，也因為這一句話，我們改變了選舉的制度，原住民區、原鄉區還是選，有代表會，但是區長必須是原住民，他知道他要的，但是代表會的主席就不一定了，大家原漢合作，所以的確原住民需要的應該要好好專案去檢討，他就不要水泥的，你不能補助他錏管的話，那沒有用嘛！好不好？我們高金非常的用心，你也儘快去研討資料給我們經濟委員會，也給高金委員。謝謝。","接下來我們請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","張啓楷","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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當 時 領 導 你 們 的 政 務 官 他 只 是 一 個 只 有 理 論 沒 有 實 踐 的 虛 謎 學 者\n\n3\n00:00:43,919 --> 00:01:02,260\n把 台 灣 的 農 業 耽 誤 了 好 長 一 段 時 間 今 天 我 非 常 樂 見 來 自 農 事 所 的 您 能 夠 擔 任 部 長 這 個 職 位 繼 續 能 夠 跟 台 灣 的 農 民 來 一 起 打 拼 上 週 呢 我 看 到 了 您 接 受 媒 體 訪 問 的 時 候 你 提 到 您 說 農 業 是 一 門 專 業 的 產 業\n\n4\n00:01:04,002 --> 00:01:04,442\n我 們 以 前 曾 經 從 原 鄉 的 基 礎 資 料 的 盤 點\n\n5\n00:01:31,020 --> 00:01:57,387\n數 據 的 分 析 ： 部 落 農 業 的 實 踐 方 案 ： 落 實 原 鄉 的 食 農 教 育 ： 還 有 學 校 的 營 養 午 餐 ： 可 以 使 用 部 落 的 食 材 這 些 問 題 今 天 我 們 還 是 先 從 基 礎 資 料 的 回 顧 來 講 我 也 期 盼 這 個 部 長 和 所 有 的 農 業 部 的 同 仁 未 來 在 原 鄉 的 農 業 尤 其 是 農 村 部 落 的 議 題 上 我 們 一 起 從 制 度\n\n6\n00:02:02,331 --> 00:02:20,785\n臺 灣 目 前 我 們 要 看 一 些 數 據 可 供 農 糧 食 生 產 的 土 地 面 積 大 概 是 5 3 萬 公 頃 這 您 比 我 清 楚 其 中 有 1 2 . 8 萬 公 頃 是 位 於 山 坡 地 的 範 圍 而 位 於 山 坡 地 範 圍 的 合 法 農 地 原 住 民 的 保 留 地 就 佔 了 7 . 5 萬 公 頃\n\n7\n00:02:23,007 --> 00:02:48,462\n更 簡 單 地 講 作 為 農 糧 生 產 的 原 住 民 保 留 地 占 全 台 灣 1 4 % 也 占 山 坡 地 5 9 % 而 我 們 看 到 這 些 數 據 它 顯 示 什 麼 顯 示 原 鄉 農 業 的 重 要 特 別 是 每 年 的 4 月 到 1 0 月 民 眾 非 常 熟 悉 也 是 需 求 量 最 大 的 高 麗 菜 幾 乎 都 是 從 高 海 拔 的 部 落 下 來 的\n\n8\n00:02:49,523 --> 00:03:14,270\n可 是 呢 我 們 占 比 那 麼 高 的 部 落 的 農 地 過 去 一 直 沒 有 被 政 府 重 視 我 們 來 看 一 下 7 . 5 萬 公 頃 的 元 寶 地 過 去 全 數 是 位 於 農 田 水 利 會 的 灌 區 外 這 導 致 什 麼 呢 導 致 原 住 民 的 農 民 他 需 要 自 己 往 更 深 山 的 地 方 去 拉 水 管 然 後 自 己 拉 水 管 形 成 了 什 麼 你 看 一 下 這 些 圖 片\n\n9\n00:03:15,523 --> 00:03:29,628\n我 相 信 部 長 很 清 楚 在 場 的 農 業 的 這 個 專 家 們 你 們 也 清 楚 7 . 5 萬 公 頃 的 元 寶 地 全 數 位 於 山 坡 地 但 是 呢 農 業 部 你 們 的 補 助 項 目 卻 是 用 平 地 農 業\n\n10\n00:03:31,188 --> 00:03:52,283\n為 制 定 標 準 這 導 致 部 落 我 們 種 的 果 樹 其 實 是 需 要 牙 管 來 支 撐 可 是 我 們 的 農 糧 組 只 能 補 助 水 泥 柱 給 農 民 支 撐 果 樹 這 是 不 符 合 現 實 的 狀 況 然 後 再 來 看 7 . 5 萬 公 頃 的 原 保 地 全 數 也 不 屬 於 平 地 農 路 所 以 呢 我 們 是 位 於 重 劃 區 外\n\n11\n00:03:53,684 --> 00:04:03,396\n所 以 原 住 民 部 落 的 農 民 他 根 本 沒 有 穩 定 的 農 路 可 以 改 善 他 的 經 費 我 們 只 能 靠 什 麼 水 保 署 每 4 年 一 起\n\n12\n00:04:04,801 --> 00:04:31,798\n辛 苦 地 向 行 政 院 爭 取 來 的 所 謂 的 重 劃 區 外 緊 急 農 路 改 善 計 畫 我 們 來 修 補 部 落 的 農 路 我 們 過 去 有 很 多 的 農 業 政 治 的 補 助 根 本 沒 有 思 考 到 受 益 農 戶 的 產 值 今 天 呢 我 用 很 短 的 時 間 來 提 出 一 個 案 例 跟 部 長 你 來 交 流 我 們 來 看 一 下 宜 蘭 縣 大 同 鄉 他 是 全 台 灣 最 重 要 的 高 利 貸 的 產 區 我 們 如 果 以 這 個\n\n13\n00:04:33,119 --> 00:04:51,132\n蔬 菜 專 區 為 例 一 公 里 的 農 路 它 預 估 包 含 1 0 公 頃 的 高 麗 菜 田 而 每 公 頃 的 高 麗 菜 它 的 年 產 值 我 們 如 果 以 1 5 0 萬 元 做 計 算 的 話 所 以 每 座 一 公 里 的 農 路 可 能 是 需 要 5 0 0 萬 的 經 費 這 5 0 0 萬 的 經 費 它 可 以 使 用 多 久 2 0 年 啊\n\n14\n00:04:55,535 --> 00:05:13,675\n在 2 0 年 造 就 了 部 落 的 產 值 大 概 是 多 少 2 0 年 然 後 1 5 0 0 萬 我 們 看 到 這 樣 子 加 總 起 來 是 3 億 更 簡 單 的 來 講 就 是 我 們 的 政 府 如 果 花 5 0 0 萬 去 把 這 個 農 路 做 好 他 可 以 維 持 部 落 2 0 年 總 產 值 是 3 億 的 農 業 生 產\n\n15\n00:05:15,777 --> 00:05:36,069\n所 以 今 天 我 提 了 這 幾 個 案 例 因 為 時 間 非 常 的 短 那 麼 過 去 我 也 跟 你 探 討 過 原 鄉 的 農 業 問 題 我 期 待 在 部 長 的 帶 領 之 下 我 們 的 農 業 部 針 對 過 去 被 政 府 遺 忘 的 原 鄉 農 業 能 夠 制 定 出 符 合 部 落 農 民 需 求 的 政 策 可 以 嗎 ? 部 長 你 有 沒 有 什 麼 話 要 說 ?\n\n16\n00:05:37,690 --> 00:06:04,884\n我 想 謝 謝 委 員 的 這 些 提 問 那 以 我 的 態 度 來 講 我 在 處 理 原 鄉 的 原 民 部 落 的 這 些 農 業 其 實 要 去 考 慮 到 除 了 農 業 問 題 以 外 我 更 要 去 重 視 就 是 說 其 實 原 民 部 落 的 這 些 原 民 本 身 他 守 護 的 這 些 山 林 的 一 個 貢 獻 度 我 覺 得 要 從 這 個 貢 獻 度 去 做 某 個 程 度 的 加 值 所 以 我 所 有 的 這 些 政 策 的 誘 因 的 設 計\n\n17\n00:06:06,005 --> 00:06:30,084\n他 絕 對 不 能 說 只 是 從 平 地 的 原 則 就 直 接 套 在 原 民 部 落 所 以 你 包 括 你 剛 才 講 的 因 為 在 山 坡 地 在 坡 地 在 比 較 高 山 的 地 區 的 農 牧 用 地 的 部 分 他 的 這 些 包 括 他 的 灌 溉 系 統 他 的 水 路 系 統 他 都 應 該 被 特 別 的 去 重 視 特 別 說 雖 然 說 您 剛 才 講 的 7 . 5 萬 公 頃 我 的 資 料\n\n18\n00:06:32,566 --> 00:06:50,137\n還 有 波 地 的 部 分 大 概 有 1 6 萬 公 頃 所 以 他 也 是 一 個 重 要 的 農 業 生 產 區 所 以 後 續 我 想 我 會 針 對 原 民 部 落 的 政 策 會 有 個 特 殊 的 特 殊 的 一 個 一 個 輔 導 措 施 去 達 到 一 些 包 括 您 所 期 待 還 有 包 括 所 有 原 住 民 所 期 待 的 包 括 他 的 灌 溉 系 統\n\n19\n00:06:51,238 --> 00:07:06,578\n關 區 外 的 灌 溉 系 統 、 農 路 部 分 、 設 施 補 助 的 項 目 跟 樣 態 我 想 這 個 部 分 我 們 都 會 來 處 理 而 是 用 原 民 部 落 對 於 森 林 地 區 守 護 的 貢 獻 度 從 這 個 角 度 出 發 去 設 計 不 一 樣 的\n\n20\n00:07:09,349 --> 00:07:23,982\n非 常 好 我 想 我 們 原 住 民 的 族 人 終 於 期 待 等 到 了 一 位 好 的 部 長 接 地 氣 的 部 長 所 以 這 個 部 分 我 會 持 續 的 來 追 蹤 部 長 也 希 望 你 在 公 務 房 忙 的 時 候 也 記 得 原 住 民 的 這 一 塊 農 業 部 分 好 不 好 好 謝 謝 您 謝 謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t1530\t請高金素梅委員請做詢談。謝謝主席。讓部長休息一下。可以了嗎?有請部長。好,我們再請部長。\n18220\t41405\t部長辛苦了本期在這個位置上我曾經執行過農委會我提到臺灣的農業行政體系其實有非常多培養數十年的農業專才像您一樣你們精通臺灣農業的問題你們也改良了世界一流的農業技術可惜當時領導你們的政務官他只是一個只有理論沒有實踐的虛謎學者\n43919\t62260\t把台灣的農業耽誤了好長一段時間今天我非常樂見來自農事所的您能夠擔任部長這個職位繼續能夠跟台灣的農民來一起打拼上週呢我看到了您接受媒體訪問的時候你提到您說農業是一門專業的產業\n64002\t64442\t我們以前曾經從原鄉的基礎資料的盤點\n91020\t117387\t數據的分析：部落農業的實踐方案：落實原鄉的食農教育：還有學校的營養午餐：可以使用部落的食材這些問題今天我們還是先從基礎資料的回顧來講我也期盼這個部長和所有的農業部的同仁未來在原鄉的農業尤其是農村部落的議題上我們一起從制度\n122331\t140785\t臺灣目前我們要看一些數據可供農糧食生產的土地面積大概是53萬公頃這您比我清楚其中有12.8萬公頃是位於山坡地的範圍而位於山坡地範圍的合法農地原住民的保留地就佔了7.5萬公頃\n143007\t168462\t更簡單地講作為農糧生產的原住民保留地占全台灣14%也占山坡地59%而我們看到這些數據它顯示什麼顯示原鄉農業的重要特別是每年的4月到10月民眾非常熟悉也是需求量最大的高麗菜幾乎都是從高海拔的部落下來的\n169523\t194270\t可是呢我們占比那麼高的部落的農地過去一直沒有被政府重視我們來看一下7.5萬公頃的元寶地過去全數是位於農田水利會的灌區外這導致什麼呢導致原住民的農民他需要自己往更深山的地方去拉水管然後自己拉水管形成了什麼你看一下這些圖片\n195523\t209628\t我相信部長很清楚在場的農業的這個專家們你們也清楚7.5萬公頃的元寶地全數位於山坡地但是呢農業部你們的補助項目卻是用平地農業\n211188\t232283\t為制定標準這導致部落我們種的果樹其實是需要牙管來支撐可是我們的農糧組只能補助水泥柱給農民支撐果樹這是不符合現實的狀況然後再來看7.5萬公頃的原保地全數也不屬於平地農路所以呢我們是位於重劃區外\n233684\t243396\t所以原住民部落的農民他根本沒有穩定的農路可以改善他的經費我們只能靠什麼水保署每4年一起\n244801\t271798\t辛苦地向行政院爭取來的所謂的重劃區外緊急農路改善計畫我們來修補部落的農路我們過去有很多的農業政治的補助根本沒有思考到受益農戶的產值今天呢我用很短的時間來提出一個案例跟部長你來交流我們來看一下宜蘭縣大同鄉他是全台灣最重要的高利貸的產區我們如果以這個\n273119\t291132\t蔬菜專區為例一公里的農路它預估包含10公頃的高麗菜田而每公頃的高麗菜它的年產值我們如果以150萬元做計算的話所以每座一公里的農路可能是需要500萬的經費這500萬的經費它可以使用多久20年啊\n295535\t313675\t在20年造就了部落的產值大概是多少20年然後1500萬我們看到這樣子加總起來是3億更簡單的來講就是我們的政府如果花500萬去把這個農路做好他可以維持部落20年總產值是3億的農業生產\n315777\t336069\t所以今天我提了這幾個案例因為時間非常的短那麼過去我也跟你探討過原鄉的農業問題我期待在部長的帶領之下我們的農業部針對過去被政府遺忘的原鄉農業能夠制定出符合部落農民需求的政策可以嗎?部長你有沒有什麼話要說?\n337690\t364884\t我想謝謝委員的這些提問那以我的態度來講我在處理原鄉的原民部落的這些農業其實要去考慮到除了農業問題以外我更要去重視就是說其實原民部落的這些原民本身他守護的這些山林的一個貢獻度我覺得要從這個貢獻度去做某個程度的加值所以我所有的這些政策的誘因的設計\n366005\t390084\t他絕對不能說只是從平地的原則就直接套在原民部落所以你包括你剛才講的因為在山坡地在坡地在比較高山的地區的農牧用地的部分他的這些包括他的灌溉系統他的水路系統他都應該被特別的去重視特別說雖然說您剛才講的7.5萬公頃我的資料\n392566\t410137\t還有波地的部分大概有16萬公頃所以他也是一個重要的農業生產區所以後續我想我會針對原民部落的政策會有個特殊的特殊的一個一個輔導措施去達到一些包括您所期待還有包括所有原住民所期待的包括他的灌溉系統\n411238\t426578\t關區外的灌溉系統、農路部分、設施補助的項目跟樣態我想這個部分我們都會來處理而是用原民部落對於森林地區守護的貢獻度從這個角度出發去設計不一樣的\n429349\t443982\t非常好我想我們原住民的族人終於期待等到了一位好的部長接地氣的部長所以這個部分我會持續的來追蹤部長也希望你在公務房忙的時候也記得原住民的這一塊農業部分好不好好謝謝您謝謝\n","txt":"請高金素梅委員請做詢談。謝謝主席。讓部長休息一下。可以了嗎?有請部長。好,我們再請部長。\n部長辛苦了本期在這個位置上我曾經執行過農委會我提到臺灣的農業行政體系其實有非常多培養數十年的農業專才像您一樣你們精通臺灣農業的問題你們也改良了世界一流的農業技術可惜當時領導你們的政務官他只是一個只有理論沒有實踐的虛謎學者\n把台灣的農業耽誤了好長一段時間今天我非常樂見來自農事所的您能夠擔任部長這個職位繼續能夠跟台灣的農民來一起打拼上週呢我看到了您接受媒體訪問的時候你提到您說農業是一門專業的產業\n我們以前曾經從原鄉的基礎資料的盤點\n數據的分析：部落農業的實踐方案：落實原鄉的食農教育：還有學校的營養午餐：可以使用部落的食材這些問題今天我們還是先從基礎資料的回顧來講我也期盼這個部長和所有的農業部的同仁未來在原鄉的農業尤其是農村部落的議題上我們一起從制度\n臺灣目前我們要看一些數據可供農糧食生產的土地面積大概是53萬公頃這您比我清楚其中有12.8萬公頃是位於山坡地的範圍而位於山坡地範圍的合法農地原住民的保留地就佔了7.5萬公頃\n更簡單地講作為農糧生產的原住民保留地占全台灣14%也占山坡地59%而我們看到這些數據它顯示什麼顯示原鄉農業的重要特別是每年的4月到10月民眾非常熟悉也是需求量最大的高麗菜幾乎都是從高海拔的部落下來的\n可是呢我們占比那麼高的部落的農地過去一直沒有被政府重視我們來看一下7.5萬公頃的元寶地過去全數是位於農田水利會的灌區外這導致什麼呢導致原住民的農民他需要自己往更深山的地方去拉水管然後自己拉水管形成了什麼你看一下這些圖片\n我相信部長很清楚在場的農業的這個專家們你們也清楚7.5萬公頃的元寶地全數位於山坡地但是呢農業部你們的補助項目卻是用平地農業\n為制定標準這導致部落我們種的果樹其實是需要牙管來支撐可是我們的農糧組只能補助水泥柱給農民支撐果樹這是不符合現實的狀況然後再來看7.5萬公頃的原保地全數也不屬於平地農路所以呢我們是位於重劃區外\n所以原住民部落的農民他根本沒有穩定的農路可以改善他的經費我們只能靠什麼水保署每4年一起\n辛苦地向行政院爭取來的所謂的重劃區外緊急農路改善計畫我們來修補部落的農路我們過去有很多的農業政治的補助根本沒有思考到受益農戶的產值今天呢我用很短的時間來提出一個案例跟部長你來交流我們來看一下宜蘭縣大同鄉他是全台灣最重要的高利貸的產區我們如果以這個\n蔬菜專區為例一公里的農路它預估包含10公頃的高麗菜田而每公頃的高麗菜它的年產值我們如果以150萬元做計算的話所以每座一公里的農路可能是需要500萬的經費這500萬的經費它可以使用多久20年啊\n在20年造就了部落的產值大概是多少20年然後1500萬我們看到這樣子加總起來是3億更簡單的來講就是我們的政府如果花500萬去把這個農路做好他可以維持部落20年總產值是3億的農業生產\n所以今天我提了這幾個案例因為時間非常的短那麼過去我也跟你探討過原鄉的農業問題我期待在部長的帶領之下我們的農業部針對過去被政府遺忘的原鄉農業能夠制定出符合部落農民需求的政策可以嗎?部長你有沒有什麼話要說?\n我想謝謝委員的這些提問那以我的態度來講我在處理原鄉的原民部落的這些農業其實要去考慮到除了農業問題以外我更要去重視就是說其實原民部落的這些原民本身他守護的這些山林的一個貢獻度我覺得要從這個貢獻度去做某個程度的加值所以我所有的這些政策的誘因的設計\n他絕對不能說只是從平地的原則就直接套在原民部落所以你包括你剛才講的因為在山坡地在坡地在比較高山的地區的農牧用地的部分他的這些包括他的灌溉系統他的水路系統他都應該被特別的去重視特別說雖然說您剛才講的7.5萬公頃我的資料\n還有波地的部分大概有16萬公頃所以他也是一個重要的農業生產區所以後續我想我會針對原民部落的政策會有個特殊的特殊的一個一個輔導措施去達到一些包括您所期待還有包括所有原住民所期待的包括他的灌溉系統\n關區外的灌溉系統、農路部分、設施補助的項目跟樣態我想這個部分我們都會來處理而是用原民部落對於森林地區守護的貢獻度從這個角度出發去設計不一樣的\n非常好我想我們原住民的族人終於期待等到了一位好的部長接地氣的部長所以這個部分我會持續的來追蹤部長也希望你在公務房忙的時候也記得原住民的這一塊農業部分好不好好謝謝您謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:01.530\n請 高 金 素 梅 委 員 請 做 詢 談 。 謝 謝 主 席 。 讓 部 長 休 息 一 下 。 可 以 了 嗎 ? 有 請 部 長 。 好 , 我 們 再 請 部 長 。\n\n00:18.220 --> 00:41.405\n部 長 辛 苦 了 本 期 在 這 個 位 置 上 我 曾 經 執 行 過 農 委 會 我 提 到 臺 灣 的 農 業 行 政 體 系 其 實 有 非 常 多 培 養 數 十 年 的 農 業 專 才 像 您 一 樣 你 們 精 通 臺 灣 農 業 的 問 題 你 們 也 改 良 了 世 界 一 流 的 農 業 技 術 可 惜 當 時 領 導 你 們 的 政 務 官 他 只 是 一 個 只 有 理 論 沒 有 實 踐 的 虛 謎 學 者\n\n00:43.919 --> 01:02.260\n把 台 灣 的 農 業 耽 誤 了 好 長 一 段 時 間 今 天 我 非 常 樂 見 來 自 農 事 所 的 您 能 夠 擔 任 部 長 這 個 職 位 繼 續 能 夠 跟 台 灣 的 農 民 來 一 起 打 拼 上 週 呢 我 看 到 了 您 接 受 媒 體 訪 問 的 時 候 你 提 到 您 說 農 業 是 一 門 專 業 的 產 業\n\n01:04.002 --> 01:04.442\n我 們 以 前 曾 經 從 原 鄉 的 基 礎 資 料 的 盤 點\n\n01:31.020 --> 01:57.387\n數 據 的 分 析 ： 部 落 農 業 的 實 踐 方 案 ： 落 實 原 鄉 的 食 農 教 育 ： 還 有 學 校 的 營 養 午 餐 ： 可 以 使 用 部 落 的 食 材 這 些 問 題 今 天 我 們 還 是 先 從 基 礎 資 料 的 回 顧 來 講 我 也 期 盼 這 個 部 長 和 所 有 的 農 業 部 的 同 仁 未 來 在 原 鄉 的 農 業 尤 其 是 農 村 部 落 的 議 題 上 我 們 一 起 從 制 度\n\n02:02.331 --> 02:20.785\n臺 灣 目 前 我 們 要 看 一 些 數 據 可 供 農 糧 食 生 產 的 土 地 面 積 大 概 是 5 3 萬 公 頃 這 您 比 我 清 楚 其 中 有 1 2 . 8 萬 公 頃 是 位 於 山 坡 地 的 範 圍 而 位 於 山 坡 地 範 圍 的 合 法 農 地 原 住 民 的 保 留 地 就 佔 了 7 . 5 萬 公 頃\n\n02:23.007 --> 02:48.462\n更 簡 單 地 講 作 為 農 糧 生 產 的 原 住 民 保 留 地 占 全 台 灣 1 4 % 也 占 山 坡 地 5 9 % 而 我 們 看 到 這 些 數 據 它 顯 示 什 麼 顯 示 原 鄉 農 業 的 重 要 特 別 是 每 年 的 4 月 到 1 0 月 民 眾 非 常 熟 悉 也 是 需 求 量 最 大 的 高 麗 菜 幾 乎 都 是 從 高 海 拔 的 部 落 下 來 的\n\n02:49.523 --> 03:14.270\n可 是 呢 我 們 占 比 那 麼 高 的 部 落 的 農 地 過 去 一 直 沒 有 被 政 府 重 視 我 們 來 看 一 下 7 . 5 萬 公 頃 的 元 寶 地 過 去 全 數 是 位 於 農 田 水 利 會 的 灌 區 外 這 導 致 什 麼 呢 導 致 原 住 民 的 農 民 他 需 要 自 己 往 更 深 山 的 地 方 去 拉 水 管 然 後 自 己 拉 水 管 形 成 了 什 麼 你 看 一 下 這 些 圖 片\n\n03:15.523 --> 03:29.628\n我 相 信 部 長 很 清 楚 在 場 的 農 業 的 這 個 專 家 們 你 們 也 清 楚 7 . 5 萬 公 頃 的 元 寶 地 全 數 位 於 山 坡 地 但 是 呢 農 業 部 你 們 的 補 助 項 目 卻 是 用 平 地 農 業\n\n03:31.188 --> 03:52.283\n為 制 定 標 準 這 導 致 部 落 我 們 種 的 果 樹 其 實 是 需 要 牙 管 來 支 撐 可 是 我 們 的 農 糧 組 只 能 補 助 水 泥 柱 給 農 民 支 撐 果 樹 這 是 不 符 合 現 實 的 狀 況 然 後 再 來 看 7 . 5 萬 公 頃 的 原 保 地 全 數 也 不 屬 於 平 地 農 路 所 以 呢 我 們 是 位 於 重 劃 區 外\n\n03:53.684 --> 04:03.396\n所 以 原 住 民 部 落 的 農 民 他 根 本 沒 有 穩 定 的 農 路 可 以 改 善 他 的 經 費 我 們 只 能 靠 什 麼 水 保 署 每 4 年 一 起\n\n04:04.801 --> 04:31.798\n辛 苦 地 向 行 政 院 爭 取 來 的 所 謂 的 重 劃 區 外 緊 急 農 路 改 善 計 畫 我 們 來 修 補 部 落 的 農 路 我 們 過 去 有 很 多 的 農 業 政 治 的 補 助 根 本 沒 有 思 考 到 受 益 農 戶 的 產 值 今 天 呢 我 用 很 短 的 時 間 來 提 出 一 個 案 例 跟 部 長 你 來 交 流 我 們 來 看 一 下 宜 蘭 縣 大 同 鄉 他 是 全 台 灣 最 重 要 的 高 利 貸 的 產 區 我 們 如 果 以 這 個\n\n04:33.119 --> 04:51.132\n蔬 菜 專 區 為 例 一 公 里 的 農 路 它 預 估 包 含 1 0 公 頃 的 高 麗 菜 田 而 每 公 頃 的 高 麗 菜 它 的 年 產 值 我 們 如 果 以 1 5 0 萬 元 做 計 算 的 話 所 以 每 座 一 公 里 的 農 路 可 能 是 需 要 5 0 0 萬 的 經 費 這 5 0 0 萬 的 經 費 它 可 以 使 用 多 久 2 0 年 啊\n\n04:55.535 --> 05:13.675\n在 2 0 年 造 就 了 部 落 的 產 值 大 概 是 多 少 2 0 年 然 後 1 5 0 0 萬 我 們 看 到 這 樣 子 加 總 起 來 是 3 億 更 簡 單 的 來 講 就 是 我 們 的 政 府 如 果 花 5 0 0 萬 去 把 這 個 農 路 做 好 他 可 以 維 持 部 落 2 0 年 總 產 值 是 3 億 的 農 業 生 產\n\n05:15.777 --> 05:36.069\n所 以 今 天 我 提 了 這 幾 個 案 例 因 為 時 間 非 常 的 短 那 麼 過 去 我 也 跟 你 探 討 過 原 鄉 的 農 業 問 題 我 期 待 在 部 長 的 帶 領 之 下 我 們 的 農 業 部 針 對 過 去 被 政 府 遺 忘 的 原 鄉 農 業 能 夠 制 定 出 符 合 部 落 農 民 需 求 的 政 策 可 以 嗎 ? 部 長 你 有 沒 有 什 麼 話 要 說 ?\n\n05:37.690 --> 06:04.884\n我 想 謝 謝 委 員 的 這 些 提 問 那 以 我 的 態 度 來 講 我 在 處 理 原 鄉 的 原 民 部 落 的 這 些 農 業 其 實 要 去 考 慮 到 除 了 農 業 問 題 以 外 我 更 要 去 重 視 就 是 說 其 實 原 民 部 落 的 這 些 原 民 本 身 他 守 護 的 這 些 山 林 的 一 個 貢 獻 度 我 覺 得 要 從 這 個 貢 獻 度 去 做 某 個 程 度 的 加 值 所 以 我 所 有 的 這 些 政 策 的 誘 因 的 設 計\n\n06:06.005 --> 06:30.084\n他 絕 對 不 能 說 只 是 從 平 地 的 原 則 就 直 接 套 在 原 民 部 落 所 以 你 包 括 你 剛 才 講 的 因 為 在 山 坡 地 在 坡 地 在 比 較 高 山 的 地 區 的 農 牧 用 地 的 部 分 他 的 這 些 包 括 他 的 灌 溉 系 統 他 的 水 路 系 統 他 都 應 該 被 特 別 的 去 重 視 特 別 說 雖 然 說 您 剛 才 講 的 7 . 5 萬 公 頃 我 的 資 料\n\n06:32.566 --> 06:50.137\n還 有 波 地 的 部 分 大 概 有 1 6 萬 公 頃 所 以 他 也 是 一 個 重 要 的 農 業 生 產 區 所 以 後 續 我 想 我 會 針 對 原 民 部 落 的 政 策 會 有 個 特 殊 的 特 殊 的 一 個 一 個 輔 導 措 施 去 達 到 一 些 包 括 您 所 期 待 還 有 包 括 所 有 原 住 民 所 期 待 的 包 括 他 的 灌 溉 系 統\n\n06:51.238 --> 07:06.578\n關 區 外 的 灌 溉 系 統 、 農 路 部 分 、 設 施 補 助 的 項 目 跟 樣 態 我 想 這 個 部 分 我 們 都 會 來 處 理 而 是 用 原 民 部 落 對 於 森 林 地 區 守 護 的 貢 獻 度 從 這 個 角 度 出 發 去 設 計 不 一 樣 的\n\n07:09.349 --> 07:23.982\n非 常 好 我 想 我 們 原 住 民 的 族 人 終 於 期 待 等 到 了 一 位 好 的 部 長 接 地 氣 的 部 長 所 以 這 個 部 分 我 會 持 續 的 來 追 蹤 部 長 也 希 望 你 在 公 務 房 忙 的 時 候 也 記 得 原 住 民 的 這 一 塊 農 業 部 分 好 不 好 好 謝 謝 您 謝 謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":1.53,"text":"請高金素梅委員請做詢談。謝謝主席。讓部長休息一下。可以了嗎?有請部長。好,我們再請部長。"},{"start":18.22,"end":41.405,"text":"部長辛苦了本期在這個位置上我曾經執行過農委會我提到臺灣的農業行政體系其實有非常多培養數十年的農業專才像您一樣你們精通臺灣農業的問題你們也改良了世界一流的農業技術可惜當時領導你們的政務官他只是一個只有理論沒有實踐的虛謎學者"},{"start":43.919,"end":62.26,"text":"把台灣的農業耽誤了好長一段時間今天我非常樂見來自農事所的您能夠擔任部長這個職位繼續能夠跟台灣的農民來一起打拼上週呢我看到了您接受媒體訪問的時候你提到您說農業是一門專業的產業"},{"start":64.002,"end":64.442,"text":"我們以前曾經從原鄉的基礎資料的盤點"},{"start":91.02,"end":117.387,"text":"數據的分析：部落農業的實踐方案：落實原鄉的食農教育：還有學校的營養午餐：可以使用部落的食材這些問題今天我們還是先從基礎資料的回顧來講我也期盼這個部長和所有的農業部的同仁未來在原鄉的農業尤其是農村部落的議題上我們一起從制度"},{"start":122.331,"end":140.785,"text":"臺灣目前我們要看一些數據可供農糧食生產的土地面積大概是53萬公頃這您比我清楚其中有12.8萬公頃是位於山坡地的範圍而位於山坡地範圍的合法農地原住民的保留地就佔了7.5萬公頃"},{"start":143.007,"end":168.462,"text":"更簡單地講作為農糧生產的原住民保留地占全台灣14%也占山坡地59%而我們看到這些數據它顯示什麼顯示原鄉農業的重要特別是每年的4月到10月民眾非常熟悉也是需求量最大的高麗菜幾乎都是從高海拔的部落下來的"},{"start":169.523,"end":194.27,"text":"可是呢我們占比那麼高的部落的農地過去一直沒有被政府重視我們來看一下7.5萬公頃的元寶地過去全數是位於農田水利會的灌區外這導致什麼呢導致原住民的農民他需要自己往更深山的地方去拉水管然後自己拉水管形成了什麼你看一下這些圖片"},{"start":195.523,"end":209.628,"text":"我相信部長很清楚在場的農業的這個專家們你們也清楚7.5萬公頃的元寶地全數位於山坡地但是呢農業部你們的補助項目卻是用平地農業"},{"start":211.188,"end":232.283,"text":"為制定標準這導致部落我們種的果樹其實是需要牙管來支撐可是我們的農糧組只能補助水泥柱給農民支撐果樹這是不符合現實的狀況然後再來看7.5萬公頃的原保地全數也不屬於平地農路所以呢我們是位於重劃區外"},{"start":233.684,"end":243.396,"text":"所以原住民部落的農民他根本沒有穩定的農路可以改善他的經費我們只能靠什麼水保署每4年一起"},{"start":244.801,"end":271.798,"text":"辛苦地向行政院爭取來的所謂的重劃區外緊急農路改善計畫我們來修補部落的農路我們過去有很多的農業政治的補助根本沒有思考到受益農戶的產值今天呢我用很短的時間來提出一個案例跟部長你來交流我們來看一下宜蘭縣大同鄉他是全台灣最重要的高利貸的產區我們如果以這個"},{"start":273.119,"end":291.132,"text":"蔬菜專區為例一公里的農路它預估包含10公頃的高麗菜田而每公頃的高麗菜它的年產值我們如果以150萬元做計算的話所以每座一公里的農路可能是需要500萬的經費這500萬的經費它可以使用多久20年啊"},{"start":295.535,"end":313.675,"text":"在20年造就了部落的產值大概是多少20年然後1500萬我們看到這樣子加總起來是3億更簡單的來講就是我們的政府如果花500萬去把這個農路做好他可以維持部落20年總產值是3億的農業生產"},{"start":315.777,"end":336.069,"text":"所以今天我提了這幾個案例因為時間非常的短那麼過去我也跟你探討過原鄉的農業問題我期待在部長的帶領之下我們的農業部針對過去被政府遺忘的原鄉農業能夠制定出符合部落農民需求的政策可以嗎?部長你有沒有什麼話要說?"},{"start":337.69,"end":364.884,"text":"我想謝謝委員的這些提問那以我的態度來講我在處理原鄉的原民部落的這些農業其實要去考慮到除了農業問題以外我更要去重視就是說其實原民部落的這些原民本身他守護的這些山林的一個貢獻度我覺得要從這個貢獻度去做某個程度的加值所以我所有的這些政策的誘因的設計"},{"start":366.005,"end":390.084,"text":"他絕對不能說只是從平地的原則就直接套在原民部落所以你包括你剛才講的因為在山坡地在坡地在比較高山的地區的農牧用地的部分他的這些包括他的灌溉系統他的水路系統他都應該被特別的去重視特別說雖然說您剛才講的7.5萬公頃我的資料"},{"start":392.566,"end":410.137,"text":"還有波地的部分大概有16萬公頃所以他也是一個重要的農業生產區所以後續我想我會針對原民部落的政策會有個特殊的特殊的一個一個輔導措施去達到一些包括您所期待還有包括所有原住民所期待的包括他的灌溉系統"},{"start":411.238,"end":426.578,"text":"關區外的灌溉系統、農路部分、設施補助的項目跟樣態我想這個部分我們都會來處理而是用原民部落對於森林地區守護的貢獻度從這個角度出發去設計不一樣的"},{"start":429.349,"end":443.982,"text":"非常好我想我們原住民的族人終於期待等到了一位好的部長接地氣的部長所以這個部分我會持續的來追蹤部長也希望你在公務房忙的時候也記得原住民的這一塊農業部分好不好好謝謝您謝謝"}]}}}}