{"id":153283,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331b0e8ecdb8796752474cb636d3605ada8c09f7998a2d5a4c1ecad090f378ca0a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"12:27:46 - 12:36:01","影片長度":"00:08:15","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-29","duration":495,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-22"},"end_time":"2024-05-29T12:36:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-29T12:27:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（12時27分）謝謝主席。有請國安局蔡局長、陸委會梁副主委。"],["主席：請蔡局長還有梁副主委。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。林委員好。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：局長好。副主委好。沈伯洋委員所提的兩岸人民關係條例修正草案遭藍白聯手封殺，在院會被退回一次，在程序委員會也被擋了三次，藍白連討論都不讓我們討論，我不曉得他們在害怕什麼，既然他們不讓我們討論，那本席就藉這個質詢的機會來檢視一下這個法案。我們很清楚知道中國從來沒有放棄武力犯台的野心，所以我們最大的國安威脅當然是中國，我們當然要急切的、好好地來討論探討這部法案。首先我們來看第九條，既然中國對臺灣的威脅那麼的具體，那就要請問局長跟副主委，是否認同立委的身分特殊，除了有機會接觸國家機密，而且有權左右施政方向，他如果非得在任期期間要去中國，那有必要經過內政部會同國安局、法務部、陸委會或者是相關的機關來審查許可嗎？另外我再請教一下，就是你們是否認同如果立委跟中國的黨務或者軍事，又或者是政治性的機關、涉及一些對台政治人物的工作或者團體有所接觸，我想這個應該要申報接觸時的往來情形跟內容，這兩個問題請先回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局這邊先簡單說明一下國安單位的立場，再請梁副主委來做補充。就我們政府機關來講，就像委員所提出來的，依照兩岸人民關係條例第九條以及國家機密保護法第二十六條，要到對岸去都應該要有一個報備的動作，特別是如直轄市長、涉及到國安機密者或地方的縣市首長或是有承包政府科技研究計畫者，要到對岸去還要再經過聯席會議的審查，所以在行政部門確實有這樣的一個機制。對於立法院在討論要不要規範委員到對岸去，我們認為從國安的角度來講，我們很樂見有這樣的討論，假如能夠有相關的一個法制規範或自律機制的話，那我們在過程當中很願意來提供相關的意見，給貴院來做參考。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以局長很明顯是認同立委……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，能夠討論一些國安的防範機制，當然我們都樂觀其成。"],["林委員宜瑾：副主委也是嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：其實從我們陸委會的立場，第九條第四項第一款本來就有包括立法院，但是長久以來，立法院並沒有按照兩岸人民條例第九條第四項第一款提列需要赴陸審查的人員，所以如果可以把這個定得更明確化的話，我覺得並不是不好。譬如說我們現在在審查的很多縣市長、縣市長下面的局處長，在我們看來，其實局處長這些不太會接觸到國家機密，但是根據現在的規定，他們是要被審查的，反而是我們立法院沒有，所以這個部分，我認為如果要把它明確的寫出來，我覺得是可以走的方向。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK！藍白立委昨天才剛用黑箱濫權的手段通過國會擴權惡法，所以現在權力是集中在立法院喔！那我們無法期待有權者能自制，有鑑於絕對的權力會導致絕對的腐化，所以我們一定要有相應的監督機制。就如同剛才兩位所說，都認同立委去中國，特別是有機密的，一定要有一些報備或者是申報的機制。可是有人說現行的兩岸人民關係條例裡面，對於立委到中國一事就足夠規範，這個主張根據的是現行第九條第四項第二款，可是請問上個月底傅崐萁率團赴中又是接受哪一條法律哪一個條文的規範？還想請教的是，針對沈伯洋委員所提的這個國安法案，你們陸委會未來會提出對案嗎？或是針對這個立法委員跟中國的關係，陸委會有什麼實質的監管機制？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我必須再說一次，兩岸人民關係條例所說的赴陸審查的部分本來就有包括立法院，只是立法院從未執行，從來不執行！我們也來文給貴院過，但是貴院也沒有回覆，也從來沒有回覆！"],["林委員宜瑾：所以勢必要透過修法的方式？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，如果要把它訂得更清楚，我們是贊同的。我現在補充一下，監察院根據兩岸人民關係條例提報了26人，政務人員有16人，連離退職未滿三年者都有管制，監察院是這樣的。各級地方法院也有，因為法官可能會審查到跟國安有關的案件，只要他有審理到跟國安有關的案件，包括書記官、包括下面的人員等等，都要提列，依據的同樣都是兩岸人民關係條例以及國家機密保護法，所以中華民國各個機關都有做，除了立法院。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，假設您那麼認同現行法應該可以規範，問題是都沒有在執行，那如果要將法條修得更精確一點，是不是除了沈伯洋委員的提案外，因為我們現在的提案都被擋掉了，如果陸委會有這樣的態度的話，是不是要提出對案？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對於沈伯洋委員提出的法案，我們是樂見往這個方向，目前的態度是這樣。"],["林委員宜瑾：利用最後一點時間再請教兩位，藍白兩黨濫權通過國會的擴權法案，針對我國的國安和臺灣跟中國間的關係，就兩位的專業評估，各自最擔心的負面影響在哪裡？請局長先說好了。"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛有幾位委員在關切這個問題，因為依照國家機密保護法，行政單位在核密的部分有一個非常明確的規範跟程序，到時候可能會到大院這邊，針對相關報告事項內容的涉密程度來做一些相關的管制或是出席人員的一個規範，這個會是我們後續跟大院進行討論的重點，剛剛也跟馬召委針對這部分有一些相關的對話。"],["林委員宜瑾：副主委要補充嗎？沒有？OK！謝謝！謝謝主席！"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請羅智強委員、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員、楊瓊瓔委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報；請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供；委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-22","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","洪申翰","陳永康","黃仁","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","賴士葆","沈伯洋","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","張啓楷","林宜瑾","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、外交部、大陸委員會報告「第十六屆總統就職後國際暨兩岸情勢發\n展對我國安之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"153283","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153283","tool":"pyannote","id":"153283-pyannote"},"job_id":"73WsZXquNP9Me1ag","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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\"start\": 485.195, \"end\": 485.215, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 488.117, \"end\": 488.277, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 488.277, \"end\": 488.297, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:08,131\n主 席 有 請 國 安 局 蔡 局 長 陸 委 會 梁 副 主 委 請 蔡 局 長 還 有 梁 副 主 委 好 謝 謝 主 席 林 委 員 好 局 長 好 副 主 委 好 沈 博 焱 委 員 所 提 的 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 的 修 正 草 案 遭 藍 白 聯 手 封 殺 那 院 會 被 退 回 一 次 在 程 序 委 員 會 也 被 擋 了 三 次\n\n2\n00:00:29,876 --> 00:00:39,619\n藍 白 連 討 論 都 不 讓 我 們 討 論 那 當 然 我 不 曉 得 他 們 在 害 怕 什 麼 那 所 以 既 然 他 不 讓 我 們 討 論 那 我 就 本 席 藉 在 這 個 質 詢 的 機 會 就 來 檢 視 一 下 這 個 法 案\n\n3\n00:00:44,421 --> 00:00:59,277\n我 們 很 清 楚 知 道 說 中 國 從 來 沒 有 放 棄 這 個 武 力 犯 台 的 野 心 所 以 我 們 最 大 的 國 安 威 脅 當 然 是 中 國 那 我 們 當 然 要 來 急 切 的 好 好 的 來 討 論 探 討 這 部 法 案 首 先 我 們 來 看 第 九 條\n\n4\n00:01:00,959 --> 00:01:23,039\n既 然 中 國 對 台 灣 的 威 脅 那 麼 的 具 體 那 就 要 請 問 局 長 跟 副 主 委 是 否 認 同 立 委 的 身 份 特 殊 除 了 有 機 會 接 觸 國 家 機 密 而 且 有 權 左 右 施 政 方 向 那 他 如 果 非 得 在 任 期 期 間 要 去 中 國 那 有 必 要 經 過 內 政 部 會 同 國 安 局 法 務 部 入 委 會\n\n5\n00:01:27,783 --> 00:01:57,021\n或 者 是 相 關 的 機 關 來 審 查 許 可 嗎 另 外 另 外 再 請 教 一 下 是 否 認 同 說 如 果 立 委 跟 中 國 的 黨 務 或 者 軍 事 又 或 者 是 政 治 性 的 機 關 或 者 涉 及 一 些 對 台 政 治 人 物 的 工 作 或 者 團 體 有 所 接 觸 那 我 想 這 個 應 該 要 申 報 這 個 接 觸 時 的 往 來 情 形 跟 內 容\n\n6\n00:01:59,803 --> 00:02:13,351\n這 兩 個 問 題 請 先 回 答 我 想 國 安 局 這 邊 先 簡 單 說 明 一 下 國 安 單 位 的 立 場 再 請 梁 副 主 委 來 做 補 充 就 我 們 政 府 機 關 來 講 就 像 委 員 所 提 出 來 的 依 照 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 的 第 九 條 以 及 國 家 機 密 保 護 法 的 第 2 6 條\n\n7\n00:02:14,392 --> 00:02:27,207\n那 要 到 對 岸 去 都 應 該 要 有 一 個 報 備 的 動 作 那 特 別 是 假 如 是 直 轄 市 長 涉 及 到 國 安 機 密 的 或 地 方 的 縣 市 首 長 或 是 有 承 包 政 府 的 科 技 研 究 計 畫 的 到 對 岸 去 還 要 再 經 過 聯 席 會 議 的 審 查\n\n8\n00:02:29,469 --> 00:02:30,269\n副 主 委 也 是\n\n9\n00:02:57,935 --> 00:03:20,705\n其 實 從 我 們 陸 委 會 的 立 場 九 條 之 一 本 來 就 有 包 括 立 法 院 本 來 就 有 包 括 立 法 院 那 但 是 長 久 以 來 立 法 院 並 沒 有 按 照 兩 岸 人 民 條 例 的 第 九 條 之 一 提 列 提 列 需 要 附 入 審 查 的 人 員 所 以 如 果\n\n10\n00:03:22,145 --> 00:03:41,925\n可 以 把 這 個 定 的 更 明 確 化 的 話 我 覺 得 並 不 是 不 好 因 為 譬 如 說 我 們 現 在 在 審 查 很 多 譬 如 說 縣 市 長 然 後 縣 市 長 下 面 的 局 處 長 他 顯 然 在 我 們 看 來 其 實 局 處 長 這 些 不 太 會 接 觸 到\n\n11\n00:03:43,547 --> 00:03:45,008\n藍 白 立 委 昨 天 也 才 剛 通 過 這 個 濫 權 用 黑 箱 濫 權 的 這 個 手 段 來 通 過 這 個 國 會 擴 權 二 法\n\n12\n00:04:14,198 --> 00:04:32,904\n所 以 現 在 權 力 是 集 中 在 立 法 院 我 們 無 法 期 待 這 個 擁 權 者 能 自 治 所 以 絕 對 的 權 力 會 導 致 絕 對 的 腐 化 所 以 我 們 一 定 有 相 應 的 監 督 機 制 所 以 就 如 同 您 剛 所 的 兩 位 所 說 的 都 認 同 這 個 立 委\n\n13\n00:04:33,804 --> 00:04:53,245\n去 中 國 特 別 是 有 這 個 機 密 的 這 個 一 定 是 要 有 一 些 報 備 或 者 一 些 申 報 的 機 制 那 可 是 有 人 說 現 行 的 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 裡 面 對 於 立 委 到 中 國 就 足 夠 規 範 當 然 這 個 主 張 就 是 根 據 現 行 第 九 條 第 四 項 的 第 二 款\n\n14\n00:04:54,306 --> 00:05:21,053\n那 可 是 上 個 月 底 傅 坤 祺 率 團 傅 忠 那 又 是 接 受 哪 一 條 法 律 又 是 接 受 哪 一 個 條 文 的 規 範 那 還 想 請 教 是 說 那 針 對 沈 博 洋 委 員 所 提 的 這 個 國 安 法 案 陸 委 會 未 來 他 會 提 出 你 們 會 提 出 對 岸 嗎 或 者 是 說 針 對 這 個 立 法 委 員 跟 中 國 的 關 係 陸 委 會 又 有 什 麼 實 質 的 監 管 的 機 制 啊\n\n15\n00:05:22,692 --> 00:05:32,566\n我 必 須 再 說 一 次 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 所 說 的 附 入 申 報 這 個 附 入 審 查 的 部 分 本 來 就 有 包 括 立 法 院 只 是 立 法 院 從 來 不 執 行\n\n16\n00:05:35,773 --> 00:06:01,391\n從 來 不 執 行 , 我 們 也 來 文 過 貴 院 但 是 貴 院 也 沒 有 回 覆 , 也 從 來 沒 有 回 覆 所 以 勢 必 透 過 修 法 的 方 式 對 , 如 果 要 把 它 訂 得 更 清 楚 , 我 們 是 贊 同 的 我 現 在 補 充 一 下 , 監 察 院 根 據 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 他 是 提 報 2 6 人 , 政 務 人 員 1 6 人 , 連 離 退 職 未 滿 3 年 都 有 管 制\n\n17\n00:06:03,210 --> 00:06:28,332\n檢 察 院 是 這 樣 的 各 級 地 方 法 院 也 有 因 為 法 官 他 可 能 會 審 查 到 跟 國 安 有 關 的 案 件 只 要 他 有 審 理 到 跟 國 安 有 關 的 案 件 包 括 書 記 官 包 括 下 面 的 人 員 等 等 都 要 提 列 同 樣 都 是 根 據 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 以 及 國 家 機 密 保 護 法 所 以\n\n18\n00:06:30,103 --> 00:06:33,878\n中 華 民 國 各 個 機 關 都 有 做 除 了 立 法 院\n\n19\n00:06:38,263 --> 00:07:01,690\n假 設 您 那 麼 認 同 現 在 的 現 行 法 雖 然 是 應 該 可 以 可 是 問 題 是 都 沒 有 在 執 行 那 如 果 要 修 法 的 更 精 確 一 點 除 了 沈 伯 陽 委 員 因 為 我 們 現 在 都 被 擋 掉 那 當 然 陸 委 會 如 果 說 有 這 樣 的 態 度 的 話 是 不 是 要 提 出 對 岸\n\n20\n00:07:06,192 --> 00:07:24,197\n我 們 對 於 沈 博 洋 委 員 所 提 出 的 法 案 我 們 是 樂 見 往 這 個 方 向 目 前 的 態 度 是 這 樣 好 那 最 後 一 點 時 間 就 是 說 還 是 要 請 教 兩 位 就 是 說 藍 白 兩 黨 透 過 這 個 濫 權 的 關 係 透 過 這 個 國 會 的 擴 權 法 那 針 對 我 國 的 國 安 跟 台 灣 跟 中 國 間 的 關 係 就 兩 位 的 專 業 評 估 各 自 最 擔 心 的 負 面 影 響 在 哪 裡\n\n21\n00:07:35,266 --> 00:07:35,930\n呃 局 長 先 好 了\n\n22\n00:07:38,217 --> 00:08:05,215\n對 阿 , 剛 剛 有 幾 位 委 員 在 關 切 這 個 問 題 , 也 就 是 說 到 時 候 因 為 我 們 依 照 國 家 機 密 保 護 法 , 行 政 單 位 在 和 密 的 部 分 有 一 個 非 常 明 確 的 規 範 跟 程 序 , 那 到 時 候 可 能 到 大 院 來 這 邊 , 那 怎 麼 樣 來 針 對 這 些 相 關 的 報 告 事 項 的 內 容 的 一 個 涉 密 的 程 度 , 來 做 一 些 相 關 的 一 個 管 制 , 或 是 出 席 人 員 的 一 個 規 範 , 那 這 個 會 是 我 們 後 續 跟 大 院 來 進 行 討 論 的 重 點 。\n\n23\n00:08:08,117 --> 00:08:08,297\n主 席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t8131\t主席有請國安局蔡局長陸委會梁副主委請蔡局長還有梁副主委好謝謝主席林委員好局長好副主委好沈博焱委員所提的兩岸人民關係條例的修正草案遭藍白聯手封殺那院會被退回一次在程序委員會也被擋了三次\n29876\t39619\t藍白連討論都不讓我們討論那當然我不曉得他們在害怕什麼那所以既然他不讓我們討論那我就本席藉在這個質詢的機會就來檢視一下這個法案\n44421\t59277\t我們很清楚知道說中國從來沒有放棄這個武力犯台的野心所以我們最大的國安威脅當然是中國那我們當然要來急切的好好的來討論探討這部法案首先我們來看第九條\n60959\t83039\t既然中國對台灣的威脅那麼的具體那就要請問局長跟副主委是否認同立委的身份特殊除了有機會接觸國家機密而且有權左右施政方向那他如果非得在任期期間要去中國那有必要經過內政部會同國安局法務部入委會\n87783\t117021\t或者是相關的機關來審查許可嗎另外另外再請教一下是否認同說如果立委跟中國的黨務或者軍事又或者是政治性的機關或者涉及一些對台政治人物的工作或者團體有所接觸那我想這個應該要申報這個接觸時的往來情形跟內容\n119803\t133351\t這兩個問題請先回答我想國安局這邊先簡單說明一下國安單位的立場再請梁副主委來做補充就我們政府機關來講就像委員所提出來的依照兩岸人民關係條例的第九條以及國家機密保護法的第26條\n134392\t147207\t那要到對岸去都應該要有一個報備的動作那特別是假如是直轄市長涉及到國安機密的或地方的縣市首長或是有承包政府的科技研究計畫的到對岸去還要再經過聯席會議的審查\n149469\t150269\t副主委也是\n177935\t200705\t其實從我們陸委會的立場九條之一本來就有包括立法院本來就有包括立法院那但是長久以來立法院並沒有按照兩岸人民條例的第九條之一提列提列需要附入審查的人員所以如果\n202145\t221925\t可以把這個定的更明確化的話我覺得並不是不好因為譬如說我們現在在審查很多譬如說縣市長然後縣市長下面的局處長他顯然在我們看來其實局處長這些不太會接觸到\n223547\t225008\t藍白立委昨天也才剛通過這個濫權用黑箱濫權的這個手段來通過這個國會擴權二法\n254198\t272904\t所以現在權力是集中在立法院我們無法期待這個擁權者能自治所以絕對的權力會導致絕對的腐化所以我們一定有相應的監督機制所以就如同您剛所的兩位所說的都認同這個立委\n273804\t293245\t去中國特別是有這個機密的這個一定是要有一些報備或者一些申報的機制那可是有人說現行的兩岸人民關係條例裡面對於立委到中國就足夠規範當然這個主張就是根據現行第九條第四項的第二款\n294306\t321053\t那可是上個月底傅坤祺率團傅忠那又是接受哪一條法律又是接受哪一個條文的規範那還想請教是說那針對沈博洋委員所提的這個國安法案陸委會未來他會提出你們會提出對岸嗎或者是說針對這個立法委員跟中國的關係陸委會又有什麼實質的監管的機制啊\n322692\t332566\t我必須再說一次兩岸人民關係條例所說的附入申報這個附入審查的部分本來就有包括立法院只是立法院從來不執行\n335773\t361391\t從來不執行,我們也來文過貴院但是貴院也沒有回覆,也從來沒有回覆所以勢必透過修法的方式對,如果要把它訂得更清楚,我們是贊同的我現在補充一下,監察院根據兩岸人民關係條例他是提報26人,政務人員16人,連離退職未滿3年都有管制\n363210\t388332\t檢察院是這樣的各級地方法院也有因為法官他可能會審查到跟國安有關的案件只要他有審理到跟國安有關的案件包括書記官包括下面的人員等等都要提列同樣都是根據兩岸人民關係條例以及國家機密保護法所以\n390103\t393878\t中華民國各個機關都有做除了立法院\n398263\t421690\t假設您那麼認同現在的現行法雖然是應該可以可是問題是都沒有在執行那如果要修法的更精確一點除了沈伯陽委員因為我們現在都被擋掉那當然陸委會如果說有這樣的態度的話是不是要提出對岸\n426192\t444197\t我們對於沈博洋委員所提出的法案我們是樂見往這個方向目前的態度是這樣好那最後一點時間就是說還是要請教兩位就是說藍白兩黨透過這個濫權的關係透過這個國會的擴權法那針對我國的國安跟台灣跟中國間的關係就兩位的專業評估各自最擔心的負面影響在哪裡\n455266\t455930\t呃 局長先好了\n458217\t485215\t對阿,剛剛有幾位委員在關切這個問題,也就是說到時候因為我們依照國家機密保護法,行政單位在和密的部分有一個非常明確的規範跟程序,那到時候可能到大院來這邊,那怎麼樣來針對這些相關的報告事項的內容的一個涉密的程度,來做一些相關的一個管制,或是出席人員的一個規範,那這個會是我們後續跟大院來進行討論的重點。\n488117\t488297\t主席\n","txt":"主席有請國安局蔡局長陸委會梁副主委請蔡局長還有梁副主委好謝謝主席林委員好局長好副主委好沈博焱委員所提的兩岸人民關係條例的修正草案遭藍白聯手封殺那院會被退回一次在程序委員會也被擋了三次\n藍白連討論都不讓我們討論那當然我不曉得他們在害怕什麼那所以既然他不讓我們討論那我就本席藉在這個質詢的機會就來檢視一下這個法案\n我們很清楚知道說中國從來沒有放棄這個武力犯台的野心所以我們最大的國安威脅當然是中國那我們當然要來急切的好好的來討論探討這部法案首先我們來看第九條\n既然中國對台灣的威脅那麼的具體那就要請問局長跟副主委是否認同立委的身份特殊除了有機會接觸國家機密而且有權左右施政方向那他如果非得在任期期間要去中國那有必要經過內政部會同國安局法務部入委會\n或者是相關的機關來審查許可嗎另外另外再請教一下是否認同說如果立委跟中國的黨務或者軍事又或者是政治性的機關或者涉及一些對台政治人物的工作或者團體有所接觸那我想這個應該要申報這個接觸時的往來情形跟內容\n這兩個問題請先回答我想國安局這邊先簡單說明一下國安單位的立場再請梁副主委來做補充就我們政府機關來講就像委員所提出來的依照兩岸人民關係條例的第九條以及國家機密保護法的第26條\n那要到對岸去都應該要有一個報備的動作那特別是假如是直轄市長涉及到國安機密的或地方的縣市首長或是有承包政府的科技研究計畫的到對岸去還要再經過聯席會議的審查\n副主委也是\n其實從我們陸委會的立場九條之一本來就有包括立法院本來就有包括立法院那但是長久以來立法院並沒有按照兩岸人民條例的第九條之一提列提列需要附入審查的人員所以如果\n可以把這個定的更明確化的話我覺得並不是不好因為譬如說我們現在在審查很多譬如說縣市長然後縣市長下面的局處長他顯然在我們看來其實局處長這些不太會接觸到\n藍白立委昨天也才剛通過這個濫權用黑箱濫權的這個手段來通過這個國會擴權二法\n所以現在權力是集中在立法院我們無法期待這個擁權者能自治所以絕對的權力會導致絕對的腐化所以我們一定有相應的監督機制所以就如同您剛所的兩位所說的都認同這個立委\n去中國特別是有這個機密的這個一定是要有一些報備或者一些申報的機制那可是有人說現行的兩岸人民關係條例裡面對於立委到中國就足夠規範當然這個主張就是根據現行第九條第四項的第二款\n那可是上個月底傅坤祺率團傅忠那又是接受哪一條法律又是接受哪一個條文的規範那還想請教是說那針對沈博洋委員所提的這個國安法案陸委會未來他會提出你們會提出對岸嗎或者是說針對這個立法委員跟中國的關係陸委會又有什麼實質的監管的機制啊\n我必須再說一次兩岸人民關係條例所說的附入申報這個附入審查的部分本來就有包括立法院只是立法院從來不執行\n從來不執行,我們也來文過貴院但是貴院也沒有回覆,也從來沒有回覆所以勢必透過修法的方式對,如果要把它訂得更清楚,我們是贊同的我現在補充一下,監察院根據兩岸人民關係條例他是提報26人,政務人員16人,連離退職未滿3年都有管制\n檢察院是這樣的各級地方法院也有因為法官他可能會審查到跟國安有關的案件只要他有審理到跟國安有關的案件包括書記官包括下面的人員等等都要提列同樣都是根據兩岸人民關係條例以及國家機密保護法所以\n中華民國各個機關都有做除了立法院\n假設您那麼認同現在的現行法雖然是應該可以可是問題是都沒有在執行那如果要修法的更精確一點除了沈伯陽委員因為我們現在都被擋掉那當然陸委會如果說有這樣的態度的話是不是要提出對岸\n我們對於沈博洋委員所提出的法案我們是樂見往這個方向目前的態度是這樣好那最後一點時間就是說還是要請教兩位就是說藍白兩黨透過這個濫權的關係透過這個國會的擴權法那針對我國的國安跟台灣跟中國間的關係就兩位的專業評估各自最擔心的負面影響在哪裡\n呃 局長先好了\n對阿,剛剛有幾位委員在關切這個問題,也就是說到時候因為我們依照國家機密保護法,行政單位在和密的部分有一個非常明確的規範跟程序,那到時候可能到大院來這邊,那怎麼樣來針對這些相關的報告事項的內容的一個涉密的程度,來做一些相關的一個管制,或是出席人員的一個規範,那這個會是我們後續跟大院來進行討論的重點。\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:08.131\n主 席 有 請 國 安 局 蔡 局 長 陸 委 會 梁 副 主 委 請 蔡 局 長 還 有 梁 副 主 委 好 謝 謝 主 席 林 委 員 好 局 長 好 副 主 委 好 沈 博 焱 委 員 所 提 的 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 的 修 正 草 案 遭 藍 白 聯 手 封 殺 那 院 會 被 退 回 一 次 在 程 序 委 員 會 也 被 擋 了 三 次\n\n00:29.876 --> 00:39.619\n藍 白 連 討 論 都 不 讓 我 們 討 論 那 當 然 我 不 曉 得 他 們 在 害 怕 什 麼 那 所 以 既 然 他 不 讓 我 們 討 論 那 我 就 本 席 藉 在 這 個 質 詢 的 機 會 就 來 檢 視 一 下 這 個 法 案\n\n00:44.421 --> 00:59.277\n我 們 很 清 楚 知 道 說 中 國 從 來 沒 有 放 棄 這 個 武 力 犯 台 的 野 心 所 以 我 們 最 大 的 國 安 威 脅 當 然 是 中 國 那 我 們 當 然 要 來 急 切 的 好 好 的 來 討 論 探 討 這 部 法 案 首 先 我 們 來 看 第 九 條\n\n01:00.959 --> 01:23.039\n既 然 中 國 對 台 灣 的 威 脅 那 麼 的 具 體 那 就 要 請 問 局 長 跟 副 主 委 是 否 認 同 立 委 的 身 份 特 殊 除 了 有 機 會 接 觸 國 家 機 密 而 且 有 權 左 右 施 政 方 向 那 他 如 果 非 得 在 任 期 期 間 要 去 中 國 那 有 必 要 經 過 內 政 部 會 同 國 安 局 法 務 部 入 委 會\n\n01:27.783 --> 01:57.021\n或 者 是 相 關 的 機 關 來 審 查 許 可 嗎 另 外 另 外 再 請 教 一 下 是 否 認 同 說 如 果 立 委 跟 中 國 的 黨 務 或 者 軍 事 又 或 者 是 政 治 性 的 機 關 或 者 涉 及 一 些 對 台 政 治 人 物 的 工 作 或 者 團 體 有 所 接 觸 那 我 想 這 個 應 該 要 申 報 這 個 接 觸 時 的 往 來 情 形 跟 內 容\n\n01:59.803 --> 02:13.351\n這 兩 個 問 題 請 先 回 答 我 想 國 安 局 這 邊 先 簡 單 說 明 一 下 國 安 單 位 的 立 場 再 請 梁 副 主 委 來 做 補 充 就 我 們 政 府 機 關 來 講 就 像 委 員 所 提 出 來 的 依 照 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 的 第 九 條 以 及 國 家 機 密 保 護 法 的 第 2 6 條\n\n02:14.392 --> 02:27.207\n那 要 到 對 岸 去 都 應 該 要 有 一 個 報 備 的 動 作 那 特 別 是 假 如 是 直 轄 市 長 涉 及 到 國 安 機 密 的 或 地 方 的 縣 市 首 長 或 是 有 承 包 政 府 的 科 技 研 究 計 畫 的 到 對 岸 去 還 要 再 經 過 聯 席 會 議 的 審 查\n\n02:29.469 --> 02:30.269\n副 主 委 也 是\n\n02:57.935 --> 03:20.705\n其 實 從 我 們 陸 委 會 的 立 場 九 條 之 一 本 來 就 有 包 括 立 法 院 本 來 就 有 包 括 立 法 院 那 但 是 長 久 以 來 立 法 院 並 沒 有 按 照 兩 岸 人 民 條 例 的 第 九 條 之 一 提 列 提 列 需 要 附 入 審 查 的 人 員 所 以 如 果\n\n03:22.145 --> 03:41.925\n可 以 把 這 個 定 的 更 明 確 化 的 話 我 覺 得 並 不 是 不 好 因 為 譬 如 說 我 們 現 在 在 審 查 很 多 譬 如 說 縣 市 長 然 後 縣 市 長 下 面 的 局 處 長 他 顯 然 在 我 們 看 來 其 實 局 處 長 這 些 不 太 會 接 觸 到\n\n03:43.547 --> 03:45.008\n藍 白 立 委 昨 天 也 才 剛 通 過 這 個 濫 權 用 黑 箱 濫 權 的 這 個 手 段 來 通 過 這 個 國 會 擴 權 二 法\n\n04:14.198 --> 04:32.904\n所 以 現 在 權 力 是 集 中 在 立 法 院 我 們 無 法 期 待 這 個 擁 權 者 能 自 治 所 以 絕 對 的 權 力 會 導 致 絕 對 的 腐 化 所 以 我 們 一 定 有 相 應 的 監 督 機 制 所 以 就 如 同 您 剛 所 的 兩 位 所 說 的 都 認 同 這 個 立 委\n\n04:33.804 --> 04:53.245\n去 中 國 特 別 是 有 這 個 機 密 的 這 個 一 定 是 要 有 一 些 報 備 或 者 一 些 申 報 的 機 制 那 可 是 有 人 說 現 行 的 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 裡 面 對 於 立 委 到 中 國 就 足 夠 規 範 當 然 這 個 主 張 就 是 根 據 現 行 第 九 條 第 四 項 的 第 二 款\n\n04:54.306 --> 05:21.053\n那 可 是 上 個 月 底 傅 坤 祺 率 團 傅 忠 那 又 是 接 受 哪 一 條 法 律 又 是 接 受 哪 一 個 條 文 的 規 範 那 還 想 請 教 是 說 那 針 對 沈 博 洋 委 員 所 提 的 這 個 國 安 法 案 陸 委 會 未 來 他 會 提 出 你 們 會 提 出 對 岸 嗎 或 者 是 說 針 對 這 個 立 法 委 員 跟 中 國 的 關 係 陸 委 會 又 有 什 麼 實 質 的 監 管 的 機 制 啊\n\n05:22.692 --> 05:32.566\n我 必 須 再 說 一 次 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 所 說 的 附 入 申 報 這 個 附 入 審 查 的 部 分 本 來 就 有 包 括 立 法 院 只 是 立 法 院 從 來 不 執 行\n\n05:35.773 --> 06:01.391\n從 來 不 執 行 , 我 們 也 來 文 過 貴 院 但 是 貴 院 也 沒 有 回 覆 , 也 從 來 沒 有 回 覆 所 以 勢 必 透 過 修 法 的 方 式 對 , 如 果 要 把 它 訂 得 更 清 楚 , 我 們 是 贊 同 的 我 現 在 補 充 一 下 , 監 察 院 根 據 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 他 是 提 報 2 6 人 , 政 務 人 員 1 6 人 , 連 離 退 職 未 滿 3 年 都 有 管 制\n\n06:03.210 --> 06:28.332\n檢 察 院 是 這 樣 的 各 級 地 方 法 院 也 有 因 為 法 官 他 可 能 會 審 查 到 跟 國 安 有 關 的 案 件 只 要 他 有 審 理 到 跟 國 安 有 關 的 案 件 包 括 書 記 官 包 括 下 面 的 人 員 等 等 都 要 提 列 同 樣 都 是 根 據 兩 岸 人 民 關 係 條 例 以 及 國 家 機 密 保 護 法 所 以\n\n06:30.103 --> 06:33.878\n中 華 民 國 各 個 機 關 都 有 做 除 了 立 法 院\n\n06:38.263 --> 07:01.690\n假 設 您 那 麼 認 同 現 在 的 現 行 法 雖 然 是 應 該 可 以 可 是 問 題 是 都 沒 有 在 執 行 那 如 果 要 修 法 的 更 精 確 一 點 除 了 沈 伯 陽 委 員 因 為 我 們 現 在 都 被 擋 掉 那 當 然 陸 委 會 如 果 說 有 這 樣 的 態 度 的 話 是 不 是 要 提 出 對 岸\n\n07:06.192 --> 07:24.197\n我 們 對 於 沈 博 洋 委 員 所 提 出 的 法 案 我 們 是 樂 見 往 這 個 方 向 目 前 的 態 度 是 這 樣 好 那 最 後 一 點 時 間 就 是 說 還 是 要 請 教 兩 位 就 是 說 藍 白 兩 黨 透 過 這 個 濫 權 的 關 係 透 過 這 個 國 會 的 擴 權 法 那 針 對 我 國 的 國 安 跟 台 灣 跟 中 國 間 的 關 係 就 兩 位 的 專 業 評 估 各 自 最 擔 心 的 負 面 影 響 在 哪 裡\n\n07:35.266 --> 07:35.930\n呃 局 長 先 好 了\n\n07:38.217 --> 08:05.215\n對 阿 , 剛 剛 有 幾 位 委 員 在 關 切 這 個 問 題 , 也 就 是 說 到 時 候 因 為 我 們 依 照 國 家 機 密 保 護 法 , 行 政 單 位 在 和 密 的 部 分 有 一 個 非 常 明 確 的 規 範 跟 程 序 , 那 到 時 候 可 能 到 大 院 來 這 邊 , 那 怎 麼 樣 來 針 對 這 些 相 關 的 報 告 事 項 的 內 容 的 一 個 涉 密 的 程 度 , 來 做 一 些 相 關 的 一 個 管 制 , 或 是 出 席 人 員 的 一 個 規 範 , 那 這 個 會 是 我 們 後 續 跟 大 院 來 進 行 討 論 的 重 點 。\n\n08:08.117 --> 08:08.297\n主 席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":8.131,"text":"主席有請國安局蔡局長陸委會梁副主委請蔡局長還有梁副主委好謝謝主席林委員好局長好副主委好沈博焱委員所提的兩岸人民關係條例的修正草案遭藍白聯手封殺那院會被退回一次在程序委員會也被擋了三次"},{"start":29.876,"end":39.619,"text":"藍白連討論都不讓我們討論那當然我不曉得他們在害怕什麼那所以既然他不讓我們討論那我就本席藉在這個質詢的機會就來檢視一下這個法案"},{"start":44.421,"end":59.277,"text":"我們很清楚知道說中國從來沒有放棄這個武力犯台的野心所以我們最大的國安威脅當然是中國那我們當然要來急切的好好的來討論探討這部法案首先我們來看第九條"},{"start":60.959,"end":83.039,"text":"既然中國對台灣的威脅那麼的具體那就要請問局長跟副主委是否認同立委的身份特殊除了有機會接觸國家機密而且有權左右施政方向那他如果非得在任期期間要去中國那有必要經過內政部會同國安局法務部入委會"},{"start":87.783,"end":117.021,"text":"或者是相關的機關來審查許可嗎另外另外再請教一下是否認同說如果立委跟中國的黨務或者軍事又或者是政治性的機關或者涉及一些對台政治人物的工作或者團體有所接觸那我想這個應該要申報這個接觸時的往來情形跟內容"},{"start":119.803,"end":133.351,"text":"這兩個問題請先回答我想國安局這邊先簡單說明一下國安單位的立場再請梁副主委來做補充就我們政府機關來講就像委員所提出來的依照兩岸人民關係條例的第九條以及國家機密保護法的第26條"},{"start":134.392,"end":147.207,"text":"那要到對岸去都應該要有一個報備的動作那特別是假如是直轄市長涉及到國安機密的或地方的縣市首長或是有承包政府的科技研究計畫的到對岸去還要再經過聯席會議的審查"},{"start":149.469,"end":150.269,"text":"副主委也是"},{"start":177.935,"end":200.705,"text":"其實從我們陸委會的立場九條之一本來就有包括立法院本來就有包括立法院那但是長久以來立法院並沒有按照兩岸人民條例的第九條之一提列提列需要附入審查的人員所以如果"},{"start":202.145,"end":221.925,"text":"可以把這個定的更明確化的話我覺得並不是不好因為譬如說我們現在在審查很多譬如說縣市長然後縣市長下面的局處長他顯然在我們看來其實局處長這些不太會接觸到"},{"start":223.547,"end":225.008,"text":"藍白立委昨天也才剛通過這個濫權用黑箱濫權的這個手段來通過這個國會擴權二法"},{"start":254.198,"end":272.904,"text":"所以現在權力是集中在立法院我們無法期待這個擁權者能自治所以絕對的權力會導致絕對的腐化所以我們一定有相應的監督機制所以就如同您剛所的兩位所說的都認同這個立委"},{"start":273.804,"end":293.245,"text":"去中國特別是有這個機密的這個一定是要有一些報備或者一些申報的機制那可是有人說現行的兩岸人民關係條例裡面對於立委到中國就足夠規範當然這個主張就是根據現行第九條第四項的第二款"},{"start":294.306,"end":321.053,"text":"那可是上個月底傅坤祺率團傅忠那又是接受哪一條法律又是接受哪一個條文的規範那還想請教是說那針對沈博洋委員所提的這個國安法案陸委會未來他會提出你們會提出對岸嗎或者是說針對這個立法委員跟中國的關係陸委會又有什麼實質的監管的機制啊"},{"start":322.692,"end":332.566,"text":"我必須再說一次兩岸人民關係條例所說的附入申報這個附入審查的部分本來就有包括立法院只是立法院從來不執行"},{"start":335.773,"end":361.391,"text":"從來不執行,我們也來文過貴院但是貴院也沒有回覆,也從來沒有回覆所以勢必透過修法的方式對,如果要把它訂得更清楚,我們是贊同的我現在補充一下,監察院根據兩岸人民關係條例他是提報26人,政務人員16人,連離退職未滿3年都有管制"},{"start":363.21,"end":388.332,"text":"檢察院是這樣的各級地方法院也有因為法官他可能會審查到跟國安有關的案件只要他有審理到跟國安有關的案件包括書記官包括下面的人員等等都要提列同樣都是根據兩岸人民關係條例以及國家機密保護法所以"},{"start":390.103,"end":393.878,"text":"中華民國各個機關都有做除了立法院"},{"start":398.263,"end":421.69,"text":"假設您那麼認同現在的現行法雖然是應該可以可是問題是都沒有在執行那如果要修法的更精確一點除了沈伯陽委員因為我們現在都被擋掉那當然陸委會如果說有這樣的態度的話是不是要提出對岸"},{"start":426.192,"end":444.197,"text":"我們對於沈博洋委員所提出的法案我們是樂見往這個方向目前的態度是這樣好那最後一點時間就是說還是要請教兩位就是說藍白兩黨透過這個濫權的關係透過這個國會的擴權法那針對我國的國安跟台灣跟中國間的關係就兩位的專業評估各自最擔心的負面影響在哪裡"},{"start":455.266,"end":455.93,"text":"呃 局長先好了"},{"start":458.217,"end":485.215,"text":"對阿,剛剛有幾位委員在關切這個問題,也就是說到時候因為我們依照國家機密保護法,行政單位在和密的部分有一個非常明確的規範跟程序,那到時候可能到大院來這邊,那怎麼樣來針對這些相關的報告事項的內容的一個涉密的程度,來做一些相關的一個管制,或是出席人員的一個規範,那這個會是我們後續跟大院來進行討論的重點。"},{"start":488.117,"end":488.297,"text":"主席"}]}}}}