{"id":153308,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153308","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba5bc32e090b361810ea2e07370b40154bbeba37a180c9b1cd7c50eb4124c018df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:26:05 - 09:35:16","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":551,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T09:35:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:26:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":217,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時26分）有請呂次。"],["主席：請次長。"],["林委員月琴：次長早。"],["呂次長建德：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：因為我長年都在從事青少年的服務工作，也比較關注年輕人的生活狀況，109年臺灣的人口已經呈現負成長的趨勢，老人人口持續在成長，到2050年大概就會達到高峰。從這個表格裡面可以預估，大概到2028年的時間點，15到64歲的勞動人口會降到67%，到時候年輕人大概就會覺得生活壓力非常大，因為15到64歲是可工作的人口，所以面對資源分配的時候，我們一定要考慮到底對未來的影響是什麼，因為現在年輕人都已經感受到買不起房、薪水偏比較低，然後很多要繳的都要從他的薪水支應，當在講資源分配的時候，是不是也要考慮到對世代可能產生的影響？社會福利這個金額、這個大餅事實上是固定的，所以要在固定的預算做分配的時候，可能都要很小心地去看誰的需求最需要才去分配給他。","可是從這張表格可以看到，我們一半以上的社會福利資源是花在老人身上，超過了青壯世代，而且更遠超過有很大需求的身障者，所以想問次長，有關臺灣社會福利政策制定的概念，看起來好像只要把老人照顧好就等於有好的社會福利政策，是這樣的概念嗎？因此把超過一半以上的資源都挹注，統計數字上呈現這個概念，那您的看法如何？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的指正，也非常佩服委員過去在青少年這一塊的努力成果，誠如委員剛剛所說的，我們的社會福利要能夠永續發展，事實上最重要的還是我們的青壯人口，這個是未來最重要的生產人口，還有兒童、家庭，其實還有婦女。我想這一個部分是目前全世界的普遍趨勢，賴清德總統也在國家希望工程裡面提出一個非常重要的理念叫做社會投資！","社會投資的理念主要有2個重點，第一個就是像剛剛委員所說的，其實應該更多要以實物給付，就是說應該要提供服務來代替現金；另外第二個，以人口群來說，確實我們應該要照顧現在正在工作的年輕人，還有未來的兒童，畢竟他們才是整個國家最重要的，當然長輩這邊我們一定也會全力來負擔、全力來支持，但是整個優先順序上來說，誠如委員剛剛所秀的，目前就這個部分，我想我們可能在比例上可以來做一些考量。"],["林委員月琴：對，因為我長期在服務青少年，他們覺得整個社會到底能不能很公平地去看待他們，因為在有限的資源分配上，大家比較想到的是怎麼讓老人獲得更多的資源，而不是顧及到整個資源的比例，在排擠的結果下，有可能會影響到我們青年人，他們後來的負擔比事實上是會比較高的。","所以本週在討論的移工聘僱涉及到資源排擠，相同的也是這樣子，整個好像都要挹注在……像昨天才討論到80歲以上的，可能很多時候資源都用在他身上，我覺得這不是不行，可是要考慮到社福的大餅就是這樣，所以請問次長，站在社會福利主管機關的立場上，你們在資源分配思考上有沒有考慮到是否正義的問題？"],["呂次長建德：是，非常感謝委員。我相信我們國家的經濟一定會越來越好，但是這個餅就這麼大，確實在整個優先順序上，本部的基本理念其實還是根據賴清德總統所提出的社會投資，所以我們也期待獲得大院的支持，我們目前是不是可以先把有限的資源放在年輕人身上，所以我們現在推出像有關托嬰津貼、兒童津貼還有關於托育的服務。","其實最重要的，我們的長照2.0，乃至於我們現在要提出的長照3.0都是希望透過服務來……因為服務其實也會創造更多的就業機會，我跟委員報告，以長照2.0為例，我們從一開始1.0的時候，照顧服務員只有2萬人，到目前為止已經成長到將近9萬2,000，薪資從原先的2萬9,000，目前已經提高到3萬8,000，透過創造這樣的服務，以照顧好我們的長輩跟小孩，就可以好好減輕年輕人的負擔，讓他們出來拼事業，我們經濟就會越來越好，未來的這一個資源也可以來照顧，有更多的資源可以照顧我們的長輩，形成一個良性循環，如果現在全部都放在比較短線的部分的話，那麼未來國家財政還有整個經濟的發展可能會堪慮。"],["林委員月琴：對，最後可能就是要讓我們的年輕人去承擔，健保資源也是如此，健保占國家社會保障支出大概將近30%，已經高過於我們的社會救助跟社會福利項目的24%，這就是我們為什麼會擔憂的原因。","所以請問一下，從民國84年政府就針對70歲以上的中低收入老人提供健保保費的全額補助，針對65歲到69歲，由地方開辦的福利政策來支應，現今中央的政策跟多數地方政府都有一些排富設計，如果把地方支出轉向到中央支付之後，將對中央產生一些財政上的負擔，這些數據政府應該有所掌握，所以想請問一下中央政府在現行的機制裡，一年總共支出多少錢在補助老人的健保費？那地方政府呢？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，誠如委員剛剛所說的，現在在中央的部分，針對70歲以上的低收以及中低收，我們其實都已經有補助，這個部分的話大概是10億，針對65到69歲則是根據各地方政府現在的財力，他們個別都有一些相關的措施，但我還是必須要強調，我們真的還是要把錢用在刀口上，在這有限的資源裡，我們是不是能夠有一些最好的運用。"],["林委員月琴：如果不排富的話，中央加地方一年要支出多少錢？"],["呂次長建德：如果不排富的話，依照我們目前的估算是354億，預估到2049年的時候，這個部分的數字可能會提高到691億。"],["林委員月琴：隨著人口老化的程度，逐年又要增加多少比例的費用？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為我們的長輩每一年是以20萬的速度在成長，確實在財政上來說，真的必須要審慎來考慮。"],["林委員月琴：所以本席這邊有一個具體建議，整個福利支出可能要考慮到世代正義，因為大餅就是只有這樣，所以支出項目也要避免過度集中，還有真的要珍惜資源，因為能使用的資源是有限的時候，可能要考慮排富，所以中央跟地方的分工可能要確保是否有支付的能力，因為可能要去考量有些財政比較弱的地方政府，以上，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153308","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153308","tool":"pyannote","id":"153308-pyannote"},"job_id":"x1DnyrANFtFxgxCO","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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12:39:29","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 12:42:13","msg":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153308 already downloaded"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:42:13","msg":"running whisperx with  --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）\n發言委員：林月琴'"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:42:33","msg":"merging result"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:42:33","msg":"status: done"}],"result":{"json":"{\"segments\": [{\"start\": 7.901, \"end\": 11.501, \"text\": \"而有請我們的旅次。好請次長。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 7.901, \"end\": 8.002, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 8.002, \"end\": 8.283, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 8.283, \"end\": 8.424, \"score\": 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545.935, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 545.935, \"end\": 546.055, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 546.055, \"end\": 546.235, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 546.235, \"end\": 546.335, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 546.335, \"end\": 546.515, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 546.515, \"end\": 546.675, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 546.675, \"end\": 546.816, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 546.816, \"end\": 546.936, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 546.936, \"end\": 547.036, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 547.036, \"end\": 547.116, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 547.116, \"end\": 547.236, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 547.236, \"end\": 547.416, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 547.416, \"end\": 547.917, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 547.917, \"end\": 547.997, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 547.997, \"end\": 548.017, \"score\": 0.015}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,901 --> 00:00:11,501\n而 有 請 我 們 的 旅 次 。 好 請 次 長 。\n\n2\n00:00:23,426 --> 00:00:39,482\n市 長 早 因 為 我 常 年 都 在 從 事 青 少 年 的 服 務 工 作 那 也 比 較 關 注 於 我 們 年 輕 人 的 生 活 狀 況 那 1 0 9 年 我 們 台 灣 的 人 口 已 經 事 實 上 是 呈 現 負 成 長 的 趨 勢\n\n3\n00:00:42,625 --> 00:01:08,631\n﹑ 老 人 人 口 持 續 在 成 長 ﹑ 大 概 2 0 5 0 年 ﹑ 大 概 就 會 達 到 高 峰 ﹑ 從 這 表 格 裡 邊 ﹑ 可 以 去 預 估 到 ﹑ 就 是 我 們 ﹑ 大 概 到 2 0 2 8 年 的 一 個 時 間 點 ﹑ 大 概 1 5 到 6 4 歲 的 勞 動 人 口 會 降 到 6 7 % ﹑ 到 時 候 年 輕 人 大 概 就 會 覺 得 生 活 壓 力 非 常 大 ﹑ 因 為 1 5 到 6 4 歲\n\n4\n00:01:09,851 --> 00:01:11,192\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ．\n\n5\n00:02:01,757 --> 00:02:22,003\n﹑ 是 花 在 老 人 身 上 ﹑ 超 過 了 青 壯 世 代 ﹑ 而 且 更 遠 超 過 很 大 的 需 求 的 就 是 生 長 者 。 那 所 以 想 問 市 長 說 , 台 灣 的 社 會 福 利 政 策 制 定 的 概 念 , 看 起 來 好 像 是 只 要 把 老 人 照 顧 好 , 那 就 等 於 有 好 的 社 會 福 利 。\n\n6\n00:02:22,603 --> 00:02:52,016\n政 策 是 這 樣 概 念 嗎 ? 所 以 因 此 把 超 過 一 半 以 上 的 資 源 都 役 注 。 那 統 計 數 字 上 呈 現 這 個 概 念 , 那 您 的 看 法 如 何 ? 是 , 非 常 感 謝 委 員 的 這 一 個 的 指 正 , 也 非 常 佩 服 委 員 過 去 在 有 關 於 這 個 青 少 年 的 這 一 塊 的 這 一 個 努 力 的 成 果 。 那 麼 成 儒 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 , 其 實 我 們 的 這 一 個 社 會 福 利 要 能 夠 永 續 發 展 , 其 實 最 重 要 的 事 實 上 還 是 要 這 一 個 我 們 的 青 壯 人 口 , 這 個 是 最 重 要 的 這 一 個 生 產 人 口 ,\n\n7\n00:03:17,349 --> 00:03:18,570\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查\n\n8\n00:03:42,705 --> 00:03:42,745\n﹝ 無 言 ﹞\n\n9\n00:04:06,833 --> 00:04:25,268\n﹏ 如 何 讓 老 人 獲 得 更 多 的 資 源 ﹏ 而 不 是 再 顧 及 到 整 個 資 源 排 擠 的 結 果 ﹏ 有 可 能 會 影 響 到 我 們 青 年 人 ﹏ 他 們 後 來 的 負 擔 比 事 實 上 是 會 比 較 高 的 。 所 以 本 週 在 討 論 的 移 工 聘 僱 涉 及 到 資 源 排 擠 ﹏\n\n10\n00:04:26,007 --> 00:04:27,187\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ．\n\n11\n00:04:52,742 --> 00:05:18,619\n是 否 正 義 的 問 題 。 是 , 非 常 感 謝 委 員 。 其 實 我 們 現 在 目 前 如 果 說 國 家 , 我 們 用 國 家 經 濟 我 想 我 相 信 一 定 會 越 來 越 好 。 但 是 現 在 就 是 說 在 這 一 個 這 個 餅 就 這 麼 大 嘛 。 那 我 想 就 是 說 確 實 在 整 個 優 先 順 序 上 來 說 本 部 的 一 個 基 本 的 一 個 理 念 其 實 基 本 上 還 是 我 們 根 據 賴 清 德 總 統 他 所 提 出 的 社 會 投 資 。 所 以 我 們 現 在 目 前 就 是 說 整 個 我 們 是 期 待\n\n12\n00:05:36,647 --> 00:06:02,438\n其 實 最 重 要 的 我 們 的 整 個 長 照 2 . 0 乃 至 於 我 們 現 在 要 提 出 的 長 照 3 . 0 都 是 希 望 就 是 透 過 服 務 來 這 一 個 因 為 你 服 務 的 話 其 實 也 創 造 更 多 的 就 業 機 會 出 來 我 跟 委 員 報 告 長 照 2 . 0 以 長 照 2 . 0 為 例 我 們 從 一 開 始 1 . 0 的 時 候 照 顧 服 務 員 只 有 兩 萬 到 目 前 為 止 已 經 成 長 到 將 近 快 九 萬 兩 千 那 麼 原 先 的 薪 資 從 原 先 只 是 兩 萬 九 目 前 已 經 提 高 到 三 萬 八\n\n13\n00:06:23,853 --> 00:06:50,627\n的 這 一 個 長 輩 。 所 以 我 要 就 形 成 一 個 良 性 循 環 。 那 如 果 現 在 如 果 說 現 在 就 全 部 都 就 是 說 比 較 這 一 個 短 線 的 這 個 部 分 的 話 可 能 對 於 國 家 未 來 財 政 還 有 整 個 經 濟 的 發 展 可 能 也 都 是 可 能 會 堪 慮 。 對 那 最 後 可 能 就 是 要 讓 我 們 的 年 輕 人 去 做 承 擔 。 那 健 保 資 源 也 是 啦 。 就 健 保 占 國 家 社 會 保 障 支 出 大 概 將 近 3 0 %\n\n14\n00:06:52,472 --> 00:07:17,748\n那 已 經 高 過 於 我 們 的 社 會 救 助 跟 社 會 福 利 項 目 的 2 4 % 這 就 是 我 們 為 什 麼 會 擔 憂 的 那 所 以 請 問 一 下 從 民 國 8 4 年 政 府 就 針 對 7 0 歲 以 上 的 中 低 收 入 老 人 提 供 健 保 的 保 費 全 額 補 助 那 針 對 6 5 歲 到 6 9 歲 由 地 方 的 開 辦 的 福 利 政 策 來 支 應 那 現 今 中 央 的 政 策 跟 多 數 的 地 方 政 府 大 家 都 有 一 些 排 富 設 計\n\n15\n00:07:18,929 --> 00:07:39,114\n﹏ 若 將 把 地 方 支 出 的 轉 向 到 中 央 支 付 之 後 ﹏ 將 對 中 央 產 生 一 些 財 政 上 的 負 擔 ﹏ 那 這 些 數 據 政 府 應 該 是 有 所 掌 握 的 。 所 以 想 請 問 一 下 , 中 央 政 府 在 現 行 的 機 制 裡 邊 , 一 年 大 概 總 共 支 出 了 多 少 錢 在 補 助 老 人 健 保 費 , 那 地 方 政 府 呢 ?\n\n16\n00:07:39,830 --> 00:08:06,892\n是 , 報 告 委 員 , 其 實 陳 副 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 , 我 們 現 在 其 實 我 們 在 這 個 中 央 的 部 分 , 針 對 7 0 歲 以 上 低 收 以 及 中 低 收 , 我 們 都 已 經 有 補 助 。 那 這 個 部 分 的 話 , 我 們 大 概 是 1 0 億 。 那 麼 6 5 到 6 9 歲 的 話 , 則 是 根 據 各 地 方 政 府 , 他 們 現 在 目 前 的 財 力 , 他 們 個 別 都 有 一 些 相 關 的 措 施 。 但 是 我 還 是 必 須 要 強 調 就 是 說 , 我 們 錢 真 的 還 是 要 用 在 刀 口 上 。 那 這 一 個 部 分 真 的 有 限 的 資 源 , 我 們 是 不 是 能 夠 有 一 些 最 好 的 運 用 。\n\n17\n00:08:32,290 --> 00:08:58,946\n拜 訪 委 員 , 因 為 每 一 年 我 們 的 這 一 個 長 輩 每 年 是 以 這 個 2 0 萬 的 速 度 在 成 長 , 所 以 這 個 確 實 整 個 這 一 個 財 政 上 來 說 , 真 的 是 會 必 須 要 審 慎 來 應 該 考 慮 。 所 以 這 邊 有 一 個 具 體 建 議 , 整 個 福 利 支 出 可 能 要 考 慮 到 世 代 增 益 , 因 為 大 餅 就 是 只 有 這 樣 , 所 以 支 出 項 目 也 要 避 免 過 度 集 中 , 還 有 真 的 要 珍 惜 資 源 , 因 為 能 使 用 資 源 是 有 限 的 時 候 , 可 能 要 考 慮 排 富 , 那 所 以\n\n18\n00:08:59,927 --> 00:09:08,017\n﹑ 中 央 跟 地 方 分 工 可 能 要 確 保 能 不 能 支 付 的 能 力 , 因 為 有 些 財 政 比 較 弱 的 時 候 的 一 個 地 方 政 府 可 能 要 去 考 量 。 以 上 謝 謝 。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7901\t11501\t而有請我們的旅次。好請次長。\n23426\t39482\t市長早因為我常年都在從事青少年的服務工作那也比較關注於我們年輕人的生活狀況那109年我們台灣的人口已經事實上是呈現負成長的趨勢\n42625\t68631\t﹑老人人口持續在成長﹑大概2050年﹑大概就會達到高峰﹑從這表格裡邊﹑可以去預估到﹑就是我們﹑大概到2028年的一個時間點﹑大概15到64歲的勞動人口會降到67%﹑到時候年輕人大概就會覺得生活壓力非常大﹑因為15到64歲\n69851\t71192\t則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n99070\t121357\t⋯⋯⋯⋯\n121757\t142003\t﹑是花在老人身上﹑超過了青壯世代﹑而且更遠超過很大的需求的就是生長者。那所以想問市長說,台灣的社會福利政策制定的概念,看起來好像是只要把老人照顧好,那就等於有好的社會福利。\n142603\t172016\t政策是這樣概念嗎?所以因此把超過一半以上的資源都役注。那統計數字上呈現這個概念,那您的看法如何?是,非常感謝委員的這一個的指正,也非常佩服委員過去在有關於這個青少年的這一塊的這一個努力的成果。那麼成儒委員剛剛所說的,其實我們的這一個社會福利要能夠永續發展,其實最重要的事實上還是要這一個我們的青壯人口,這個是最重要的這一個生產人口,\n172176\t197329\t﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏\n197349\t198570\t則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查\n222705\t222745\t﹝無言﹞\n246833\t265268\t﹏如何讓老人獲得更多的資源﹏而不是再顧及到整個資源排擠的結果﹏有可能會影響到我們青年人﹏他們後來的負擔比事實上是會比較高的。所以本週在討論的移工聘僱涉及到資源排擠﹏\n266007\t267187\t則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n292742\t318619\t是否正義的問題。是,非常感謝委員。其實我們現在目前如果說國家,我們用國家經濟我想我相信一定會越來越好。但是現在就是說在這一個這個餅就這麼大嘛。那我想就是說確實在整個優先順序上來說本部的一個基本的一個理念其實基本上還是我們根據賴清德總統他所提出的社會投資。所以我們現在目前就是說整個我們是期待\n318899\t336527\t﹏﹏﹏﹏\n336647\t362438\t其實最重要的我們的整個長照2.0乃至於我們現在要提出的長照3.0都是希望就是透過服務來這一個因為你服務的話其實也創造更多的就業機會出來我跟委員報告長照2.0以長照2.0為例我們從一開始1.0的時候照顧服務員只有兩萬到目前為止已經成長到將近快九萬兩千那麼原先的薪資從原先只是兩萬九目前已經提高到三萬八\n362978\t383473\t﹏﹏﹏\n383853\t410627\t的這一個長輩。所以我要就形成一個良性循環。那如果現在如果說現在就全部都就是說比較這一個短線的這個部分的話可能對於國家未來財政還有整個經濟的發展可能也都是可能會堪慮。對那最後可能就是要讓我們的年輕人去做承擔。那健保資源也是啦。就健保占國家社會保障支出大概將近30%\n412472\t437748\t那已經高過於我們的社會救助跟社會福利項目的24%這就是我們為什麼會擔憂的那所以請問一下從民國84年政府就針對70歲以上的中低收入老人提供健保的保費全額補助那針對65歲到69歲由地方的開辦的福利政策來支應那現今中央的政策跟多數的地方政府大家都有一些排富設計\n438929\t459114\t﹏若將把地方支出的轉向到中央支付之後﹏將對中央產生一些財政上的負擔﹏那這些數據政府應該是有所掌握的。所以想請問一下,中央政府在現行的機制裡邊,一年大概總共支出了多少錢在補助老人健保費,那地方政府呢?\n459830\t486892\t是,報告委員,其實陳副委員剛剛所說的,我們現在其實我們在這個中央的部分,針對70歲以上低收以及中低收,我們都已經有補助。那這個部分的話,我們大概是10億。那麼65到69歲的話,則是根據各地方政府,他們現在目前的財力,他們個別都有一些相關的措施。但是我還是必須要強調就是說,我們錢真的還是要用在刀口上。那這一個部分真的有限的資源,我們是不是能夠有一些最好的運用。\n487312\t512090\t⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n512290\t538946\t拜訪委員,因為每一年我們的這一個長輩每年是以這個20萬的速度在成長,所以這個確實整個這一個財政上來說,真的是會必須要審慎來應該考慮。所以這邊有一個具體建議,整個福利支出可能要考慮到世代增益,因為大餅就是只有這樣,所以支出項目也要避免過度集中,還有真的要珍惜資源,因為能使用資源是有限的時候,可能要考慮排富,那所以\n539927\t548017\t﹑中央跟地方分工可能要確保能不能支付的能力,因為有些財政比較弱的時候的一個地方政府可能要去考量。以上謝謝。\n","txt":"而有請我們的旅次。好請次長。\n市長早因為我常年都在從事青少年的服務工作那也比較關注於我們年輕人的生活狀況那109年我們台灣的人口已經事實上是呈現負成長的趨勢\n﹑老人人口持續在成長﹑大概2050年﹑大概就會達到高峰﹑從這表格裡邊﹑可以去預估到﹑就是我們﹑大概到2028年的一個時間點﹑大概15到64歲的勞動人口會降到67%﹑到時候年輕人大概就會覺得生活壓力非常大﹑因為15到64歲\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n⋯⋯⋯⋯\n﹑是花在老人身上﹑超過了青壯世代﹑而且更遠超過很大的需求的就是生長者。那所以想問市長說,台灣的社會福利政策制定的概念,看起來好像是只要把老人照顧好,那就等於有好的社會福利。\n政策是這樣概念嗎?所以因此把超過一半以上的資源都役注。那統計數字上呈現這個概念,那您的看法如何?是,非常感謝委員的這一個的指正,也非常佩服委員過去在有關於這個青少年的這一塊的這一個努力的成果。那麼成儒委員剛剛所說的,其實我們的這一個社會福利要能夠永續發展,其實最重要的事實上還是要這一個我們的青壯人口,這個是最重要的這一個生產人口,\n﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查\n﹝無言﹞\n﹏如何讓老人獲得更多的資源﹏而不是再顧及到整個資源排擠的結果﹏有可能會影響到我們青年人﹏他們後來的負擔比事實上是會比較高的。所以本週在討論的移工聘僱涉及到資源排擠﹏\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n是否正義的問題。是,非常感謝委員。其實我們現在目前如果說國家,我們用國家經濟我想我相信一定會越來越好。但是現在就是說在這一個這個餅就這麼大嘛。那我想就是說確實在整個優先順序上來說本部的一個基本的一個理念其實基本上還是我們根據賴清德總統他所提出的社會投資。所以我們現在目前就是說整個我們是期待\n﹏﹏﹏﹏\n其實最重要的我們的整個長照2.0乃至於我們現在要提出的長照3.0都是希望就是透過服務來這一個因為你服務的話其實也創造更多的就業機會出來我跟委員報告長照2.0以長照2.0為例我們從一開始1.0的時候照顧服務員只有兩萬到目前為止已經成長到將近快九萬兩千那麼原先的薪資從原先只是兩萬九目前已經提高到三萬八\n﹏﹏﹏\n的這一個長輩。所以我要就形成一個良性循環。那如果現在如果說現在就全部都就是說比較這一個短線的這個部分的話可能對於國家未來財政還有整個經濟的發展可能也都是可能會堪慮。對那最後可能就是要讓我們的年輕人去做承擔。那健保資源也是啦。就健保占國家社會保障支出大概將近30%\n那已經高過於我們的社會救助跟社會福利項目的24%這就是我們為什麼會擔憂的那所以請問一下從民國84年政府就針對70歲以上的中低收入老人提供健保的保費全額補助那針對65歲到69歲由地方的開辦的福利政策來支應那現今中央的政策跟多數的地方政府大家都有一些排富設計\n﹏若將把地方支出的轉向到中央支付之後﹏將對中央產生一些財政上的負擔﹏那這些數據政府應該是有所掌握的。所以想請問一下,中央政府在現行的機制裡邊,一年大概總共支出了多少錢在補助老人健保費,那地方政府呢?\n是,報告委員,其實陳副委員剛剛所說的,我們現在其實我們在這個中央的部分,針對70歲以上低收以及中低收,我們都已經有補助。那這個部分的話,我們大概是10億。那麼65到69歲的話,則是根據各地方政府,他們現在目前的財力,他們個別都有一些相關的措施。但是我還是必須要強調就是說,我們錢真的還是要用在刀口上。那這一個部分真的有限的資源,我們是不是能夠有一些最好的運用。\n⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n拜訪委員,因為每一年我們的這一個長輩每年是以這個20萬的速度在成長,所以這個確實整個這一個財政上來說,真的是會必須要審慎來應該考慮。所以這邊有一個具體建議,整個福利支出可能要考慮到世代增益,因為大餅就是只有這樣,所以支出項目也要避免過度集中,還有真的要珍惜資源,因為能使用資源是有限的時候,可能要考慮排富,那所以\n﹑中央跟地方分工可能要確保能不能支付的能力,因為有些財政比較弱的時候的一個地方政府可能要去考量。以上謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.901 --> 00:11.501\n而 有 請 我 們 的 旅 次 。 好 請 次 長 。\n\n00:23.426 --> 00:39.482\n市 長 早 因 為 我 常 年 都 在 從 事 青 少 年 的 服 務 工 作 那 也 比 較 關 注 於 我 們 年 輕 人 的 生 活 狀 況 那 1 0 9 年 我 們 台 灣 的 人 口 已 經 事 實 上 是 呈 現 負 成 長 的 趨 勢\n\n00:42.625 --> 01:08.631\n﹑ 老 人 人 口 持 續 在 成 長 ﹑ 大 概 2 0 5 0 年 ﹑ 大 概 就 會 達 到 高 峰 ﹑ 從 這 表 格 裡 邊 ﹑ 可 以 去 預 估 到 ﹑ 就 是 我 們 ﹑ 大 概 到 2 0 2 8 年 的 一 個 時 間 點 ﹑ 大 概 1 5 到 6 4 歲 的 勞 動 人 口 會 降 到 6 7 % ﹑ 到 時 候 年 輕 人 大 概 就 會 覺 得 生 活 壓 力 非 常 大 ﹑ 因 為 1 5 到 6 4 歲\n\n01:09.851 --> 01:11.192\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ．\n\n02:01.757 --> 02:22.003\n﹑ 是 花 在 老 人 身 上 ﹑ 超 過 了 青 壯 世 代 ﹑ 而 且 更 遠 超 過 很 大 的 需 求 的 就 是 生 長 者 。 那 所 以 想 問 市 長 說 , 台 灣 的 社 會 福 利 政 策 制 定 的 概 念 , 看 起 來 好 像 是 只 要 把 老 人 照 顧 好 , 那 就 等 於 有 好 的 社 會 福 利 。\n\n02:22.603 --> 02:52.016\n政 策 是 這 樣 概 念 嗎 ? 所 以 因 此 把 超 過 一 半 以 上 的 資 源 都 役 注 。 那 統 計 數 字 上 呈 現 這 個 概 念 , 那 您 的 看 法 如 何 ? 是 , 非 常 感 謝 委 員 的 這 一 個 的 指 正 , 也 非 常 佩 服 委 員 過 去 在 有 關 於 這 個 青 少 年 的 這 一 塊 的 這 一 個 努 力 的 成 果 。 那 麼 成 儒 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 , 其 實 我 們 的 這 一 個 社 會 福 利 要 能 夠 永 續 發 展 , 其 實 最 重 要 的 事 實 上 還 是 要 這 一 個 我 們 的 青 壯 人 口 , 這 個 是 最 重 要 的 這 一 個 生 產 人 口 ,\n\n03:17.349 --> 03:18.570\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查\n\n03:42.705 --> 03:42.745\n﹝ 無 言 ﹞\n\n04:06.833 --> 04:25.268\n﹏ 如 何 讓 老 人 獲 得 更 多 的 資 源 ﹏ 而 不 是 再 顧 及 到 整 個 資 源 排 擠 的 結 果 ﹏ 有 可 能 會 影 響 到 我 們 青 年 人 ﹏ 他 們 後 來 的 負 擔 比 事 實 上 是 會 比 較 高 的 。 所 以 本 週 在 討 論 的 移 工 聘 僱 涉 及 到 資 源 排 擠 ﹏\n\n04:26.007 --> 04:27.187\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ．\n\n04:52.742 --> 05:18.619\n是 否 正 義 的 問 題 。 是 , 非 常 感 謝 委 員 。 其 實 我 們 現 在 目 前 如 果 說 國 家 , 我 們 用 國 家 經 濟 我 想 我 相 信 一 定 會 越 來 越 好 。 但 是 現 在 就 是 說 在 這 一 個 這 個 餅 就 這 麼 大 嘛 。 那 我 想 就 是 說 確 實 在 整 個 優 先 順 序 上 來 說 本 部 的 一 個 基 本 的 一 個 理 念 其 實 基 本 上 還 是 我 們 根 據 賴 清 德 總 統 他 所 提 出 的 社 會 投 資 。 所 以 我 們 現 在 目 前 就 是 說 整 個 我 們 是 期 待\n\n05:36.647 --> 06:02.438\n其 實 最 重 要 的 我 們 的 整 個 長 照 2 . 0 乃 至 於 我 們 現 在 要 提 出 的 長 照 3 . 0 都 是 希 望 就 是 透 過 服 務 來 這 一 個 因 為 你 服 務 的 話 其 實 也 創 造 更 多 的 就 業 機 會 出 來 我 跟 委 員 報 告 長 照 2 . 0 以 長 照 2 . 0 為 例 我 們 從 一 開 始 1 . 0 的 時 候 照 顧 服 務 員 只 有 兩 萬 到 目 前 為 止 已 經 成 長 到 將 近 快 九 萬 兩 千 那 麼 原 先 的 薪 資 從 原 先 只 是 兩 萬 九 目 前 已 經 提 高 到 三 萬 八\n\n06:23.853 --> 06:50.627\n的 這 一 個 長 輩 。 所 以 我 要 就 形 成 一 個 良 性 循 環 。 那 如 果 現 在 如 果 說 現 在 就 全 部 都 就 是 說 比 較 這 一 個 短 線 的 這 個 部 分 的 話 可 能 對 於 國 家 未 來 財 政 還 有 整 個 經 濟 的 發 展 可 能 也 都 是 可 能 會 堪 慮 。 對 那 最 後 可 能 就 是 要 讓 我 們 的 年 輕 人 去 做 承 擔 。 那 健 保 資 源 也 是 啦 。 就 健 保 占 國 家 社 會 保 障 支 出 大 概 將 近 3 0 %\n\n06:52.472 --> 07:17.748\n那 已 經 高 過 於 我 們 的 社 會 救 助 跟 社 會 福 利 項 目 的 2 4 % 這 就 是 我 們 為 什 麼 會 擔 憂 的 那 所 以 請 問 一 下 從 民 國 8 4 年 政 府 就 針 對 7 0 歲 以 上 的 中 低 收 入 老 人 提 供 健 保 的 保 費 全 額 補 助 那 針 對 6 5 歲 到 6 9 歲 由 地 方 的 開 辦 的 福 利 政 策 來 支 應 那 現 今 中 央 的 政 策 跟 多 數 的 地 方 政 府 大 家 都 有 一 些 排 富 設 計\n\n07:18.929 --> 07:39.114\n﹏ 若 將 把 地 方 支 出 的 轉 向 到 中 央 支 付 之 後 ﹏ 將 對 中 央 產 生 一 些 財 政 上 的 負 擔 ﹏ 那 這 些 數 據 政 府 應 該 是 有 所 掌 握 的 。 所 以 想 請 問 一 下 , 中 央 政 府 在 現 行 的 機 制 裡 邊 , 一 年 大 概 總 共 支 出 了 多 少 錢 在 補 助 老 人 健 保 費 , 那 地 方 政 府 呢 ?\n\n07:39.830 --> 08:06.892\n是 , 報 告 委 員 , 其 實 陳 副 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 , 我 們 現 在 其 實 我 們 在 這 個 中 央 的 部 分 , 針 對 7 0 歲 以 上 低 收 以 及 中 低 收 , 我 們 都 已 經 有 補 助 。 那 這 個 部 分 的 話 , 我 們 大 概 是 1 0 億 。 那 麼 6 5 到 6 9 歲 的 話 , 則 是 根 據 各 地 方 政 府 , 他 們 現 在 目 前 的 財 力 , 他 們 個 別 都 有 一 些 相 關 的 措 施 。 但 是 我 還 是 必 須 要 強 調 就 是 說 , 我 們 錢 真 的 還 是 要 用 在 刀 口 上 。 那 這 一 個 部 分 真 的 有 限 的 資 源 , 我 們 是 不 是 能 夠 有 一 些 最 好 的 運 用 。\n\n08:32.290 --> 08:58.946\n拜 訪 委 員 , 因 為 每 一 年 我 們 的 這 一 個 長 輩 每 年 是 以 這 個 2 0 萬 的 速 度 在 成 長 , 所 以 這 個 確 實 整 個 這 一 個 財 政 上 來 說 , 真 的 是 會 必 須 要 審 慎 來 應 該 考 慮 。 所 以 這 邊 有 一 個 具 體 建 議 , 整 個 福 利 支 出 可 能 要 考 慮 到 世 代 增 益 , 因 為 大 餅 就 是 只 有 這 樣 , 所 以 支 出 項 目 也 要 避 免 過 度 集 中 , 還 有 真 的 要 珍 惜 資 源 , 因 為 能 使 用 資 源 是 有 限 的 時 候 , 可 能 要 考 慮 排 富 , 那 所 以\n\n08:59.927 --> 09:08.017\n﹑ 中 央 跟 地 方 分 工 可 能 要 確 保 能 不 能 支 付 的 能 力 , 因 為 有 些 財 政 比 較 弱 的 時 候 的 一 個 地 方 政 府 可 能 要 去 考 量 。 以 上 謝 謝 。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.901,"end":11.501,"text":"而有請我們的旅次。好請次長。"},{"start":23.426,"end":39.482,"text":"市長早因為我常年都在從事青少年的服務工作那也比較關注於我們年輕人的生活狀況那109年我們台灣的人口已經事實上是呈現負成長的趨勢"},{"start":42.625,"end":68.631,"text":"﹑老人人口持續在成長﹑大概2050年﹑大概就會達到高峰﹑從這表格裡邊﹑可以去預估到﹑就是我們﹑大概到2028年的一個時間點﹑大概15到64歲的勞動人口會降到67%﹑到時候年輕人大概就會覺得生活壓力非常大﹑因為15到64歲"},{"start":69.851,"end":71.192,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":99.07,"end":121.357,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":121.757,"end":142.003,"text":"﹑是花在老人身上﹑超過了青壯世代﹑而且更遠超過很大的需求的就是生長者。那所以想問市長說,台灣的社會福利政策制定的概念,看起來好像是只要把老人照顧好,那就等於有好的社會福利。"},{"start":142.603,"end":172.016,"text":"政策是這樣概念嗎?所以因此把超過一半以上的資源都役注。那統計數字上呈現這個概念,那您的看法如何?是,非常感謝委員的這一個的指正,也非常佩服委員過去在有關於這個青少年的這一塊的這一個努力的成果。那麼成儒委員剛剛所說的,其實我們的這一個社會福利要能夠永續發展,其實最重要的事實上還是要這一個我們的青壯人口,這個是最重要的這一個生產人口,"},{"start":172.176,"end":197.329,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":197.349,"end":198.57,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查"},{"start":222.705,"end":222.745,"text":" ﹝無言﹞"},{"start":246.833,"end":265.268,"text":"﹏如何讓老人獲得更多的資源﹏而不是再顧及到整個資源排擠的結果﹏有可能會影響到我們青年人﹏他們後來的負擔比事實上是會比較高的。所以本週在討論的移工聘僱涉及到資源排擠﹏"},{"start":266.007,"end":267.187,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":292.742,"end":318.619,"text":"是否正義的問題。是,非常感謝委員。其實我們現在目前如果說國家,我們用國家經濟我想我相信一定會越來越好。但是現在就是說在這一個這個餅就這麼大嘛。那我想就是說確實在整個優先順序上來說本部的一個基本的一個理念其實基本上還是我們根據賴清德總統他所提出的社會投資。所以我們現在目前就是說整個我們是期待"},{"start":318.899,"end":336.527,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":336.647,"end":362.438,"text":"其實最重要的我們的整個長照2.0乃至於我們現在要提出的長照3.0都是希望就是透過服務來這一個因為你服務的話其實也創造更多的就業機會出來我跟委員報告長照2.0以長照2.0為例我們從一開始1.0的時候照顧服務員只有兩萬到目前為止已經成長到將近快九萬兩千那麼原先的薪資從原先只是兩萬九目前已經提高到三萬八"},{"start":362.978,"end":383.473,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":383.853,"end":410.627,"text":"的這一個長輩。所以我要就形成一個良性循環。那如果現在如果說現在就全部都就是說比較這一個短線的這個部分的話可能對於國家未來財政還有整個經濟的發展可能也都是可能會堪慮。對那最後可能就是要讓我們的年輕人去做承擔。那健保資源也是啦。就健保占國家社會保障支出大概將近30%"},{"start":412.472,"end":437.748,"text":"那已經高過於我們的社會救助跟社會福利項目的24%這就是我們為什麼會擔憂的那所以請問一下從民國84年政府就針對70歲以上的中低收入老人提供健保的保費全額補助那針對65歲到69歲由地方的開辦的福利政策來支應那現今中央的政策跟多數的地方政府大家都有一些排富設計"},{"start":438.929,"end":459.114,"text":" ﹏若將把地方支出的轉向到中央支付之後﹏將對中央產生一些財政上的負擔﹏那這些數據政府應該是有所掌握的。所以想請問一下,中央政府在現行的機制裡邊,一年大概總共支出了多少錢在補助老人健保費,那地方政府呢?"},{"start":459.83,"end":486.892,"text":"是,報告委員,其實陳副委員剛剛所說的,我們現在其實我們在這個中央的部分,針對70歲以上低收以及中低收,我們都已經有補助。那這個部分的話,我們大概是10億。那麼65到69歲的話,則是根據各地方政府,他們現在目前的財力,他們個別都有一些相關的措施。但是我還是必須要強調就是說,我們錢真的還是要用在刀口上。那這一個部分真的有限的資源,我們是不是能夠有一些最好的運用。"},{"start":487.312,"end":512.09,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":512.29,"end":538.946,"text":"拜訪委員,因為每一年我們的這一個長輩每年是以這個20萬的速度在成長,所以這個確實整個這一個財政上來說,真的是會必須要審慎來應該考慮。所以這邊有一個具體建議,整個福利支出可能要考慮到世代增益,因為大餅就是只有這樣,所以支出項目也要避免過度集中,還有真的要珍惜資源,因為能使用資源是有限的時候,可能要考慮排富,那所以"},{"start":539.927,"end":548.017,"text":"﹑中央跟地方分工可能要確保能不能支付的能力,因為有些財政比較弱的時候的一個地方政府可能要去考量。以上謝謝。"}]}}}}