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0.942}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 57.943, \"end\": 58.063, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"角\", \"start\": 58.063, \"end\": 58.303, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 58.303, \"end\": 58.964, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 58.964, \"end\": 59.124, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 59.124, \"end\": 59.804, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 59.804, \"end\": 60.004, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 60.004, \"end\": 60.705, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 60.705, \"end\": 60.945, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 60.945, \"end\": 61.105, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 61.105, \"end\": 61.305, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 61.305, \"end\": 61.465, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 61.465, \"end\": 61.765, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 61.765, \"end\": 61.886, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 61.886, \"end\": 62.506, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 62.506, \"end\": 62.606, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"角\", \"start\": 62.606, \"end\": 62.846, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 62.846, \"end\": 64.027, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 64.027, \"end\": 64.327, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 64.327, \"end\": 65.188, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 65.188, \"end\": 65.348, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 65.348, \"end\": 65.548, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 65.548, \"end\": 65.728, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 65.728, \"end\": 65.928, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 65.928, \"end\": 66.188, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 66.188, \"end\": 67.269, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"穩\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 67.269, \"end\": 67.469, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 67.469, \"end\": 67.629, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 67.629, \"end\": 68.79, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 68.79, \"end\": 68.95, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 68.95, \"end\": 69.19, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 69.19, \"end\": 70.031, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 70.031, \"end\": 70.351, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 70.351, \"end\": 70.491, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 70.491, \"end\": 71.031, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 71.031, \"end\": 71.211, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 71.211, \"end\": 71.812, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 71.812, \"end\": 72.772, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"企\", \"start\": 72.772, \"end\": 72.972, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 72.972, \"end\": 73.152, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 73.152, \"end\": 73.913, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 73.913, \"end\": 74.193, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"坦\", \"start\": 74.193, \"end\": 74.313, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"白\", \"start\": 74.313, \"end\": 74.693, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 74.693, \"end\": 74.793, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 74.793, \"end\": 74.894, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 74.894, \"end\": 74.914, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"點\"}]}, {\"start\": 75.97, \"end\": 80.474, \"text\": \"所以你講到一個重點的部分就是電要夠所以說在電不夠的情況之下的時候呢你覺得重啟核電或者是讓核電延逸你覺得是可行的對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 75.97, \"end\": 76.51, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 76.51, \"end\": 76.731, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 76.731, \"end\": 76.811, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 76.811, \"end\": 76.831, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 76.831, \"end\": 77.091, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 77.091, \"end\": 77.211, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 77.211, \"end\": 77.311, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 77.311, \"end\": 77.531, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 77.531, \"end\": 77.571, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 77.571, \"end\": 77.591, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 77.591, \"end\": 77.852, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 77.852, \"end\": 78.052, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 78.052, \"end\": 78.252, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 78.252, \"end\": 78.332, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 78.332, \"end\": 78.432, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 78.432, \"end\": 78.452, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 78.452, \"end\": 78.472, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 78.472, \"end\": 78.492, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 78.492, \"end\": 78.512, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 78.512, \"end\": 78.652, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 78.652, \"end\": 78.812, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 78.812, \"end\": 79.032, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 79.032, \"end\": 79.173, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 79.173, \"end\": 79.193, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 79.193, \"end\": 79.273, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 79.273, \"end\": 79.293, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"啟\"}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 79.293, \"end\": 79.413, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 79.413, \"end\": 79.493, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 79.493, \"end\": 79.513, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 79.513, \"end\": 79.633, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 79.633, \"end\": 79.793, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 79.793, \"end\": 79.953, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"逸\", \"start\": 79.953, \"end\": 80.053, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 80.053, \"end\": 80.093, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 80.093, \"end\": 80.193, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 80.193, \"end\": 80.233, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 80.233, \"end\": 80.313, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 80.313, \"end\": 80.334, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 80.334, \"end\": 80.454, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 80.454, \"end\": 80.474, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}]}, {\"start\": 105.831, \"end\": 127.6, \"text\": \"我沒有說可行因為他必須有四個條件要做到第一個是法令的條件能不能過關其實我開過會從現在各種法令下來他至少要五年後才有機會當時河岸會也有提到因為這是法令的問題所有的公務員一定是依法行事\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 105.831, \"end\": 106.011, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 106.011, \"end\": 106.131, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 106.131, \"end\": 106.492, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 106.492, \"end\": 106.732, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 106.732, \"end\": 107.172, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 107.172, \"end\": 107.372, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 107.372, \"end\": 107.592, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 107.592, \"end\": 107.852, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 107.852, \"end\": 108.112, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 108.112, \"end\": 108.712, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 108.712, \"end\": 108.853, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 108.853, \"end\": 109.053, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 109.053, \"end\": 109.313, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 109.313, \"end\": 110.193, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 110.193, \"end\": 110.273, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 110.273, \"end\": 110.473, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 110.473, \"end\": 110.693, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 110.693, \"end\": 110.853, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 110.853, \"end\": 110.993, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 110.993, \"end\": 111.353, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 111.353, \"end\": 111.534, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 111.534, \"end\": 111.654, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 111.654, \"end\": 111.674, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 111.674, \"end\": 113.154, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 113.154, \"end\": 113.374, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 113.374, \"end\": 115.015, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 115.015, \"end\": 115.135, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 115.135, \"end\": 115.515, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 115.515, \"end\": 115.655, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 115.655, \"end\": 115.855, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 115.855, \"end\": 116.616, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 116.616, \"end\": 116.816, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 116.816, \"end\": 116.956, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 116.956, \"end\": 117.136, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 117.136, \"end\": 117.276, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 117.276, \"end\": 117.396, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 117.396, \"end\": 117.616, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 117.616, \"end\": 117.836, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 117.836, \"end\": 117.956, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 117.956, \"end\": 122.258, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"河\", \"start\": 122.258, \"end\": 122.378, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"岸\", \"start\": 122.378, \"end\": 122.738, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 122.738, \"end\": 122.798, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 122.798, \"end\": 122.978, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 122.978, \"end\": 123.178, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 123.178, \"end\": 124.058, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 124.058, \"end\": 124.459, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 124.459, \"end\": 124.619, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 124.619, \"end\": 124.759, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 124.759, \"end\": 124.919, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 124.919, \"end\": 125.699, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 125.699, \"end\": 125.839, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 125.839, \"end\": 125.919, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 125.919, \"end\": 126.059, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 126.059, \"end\": 126.479, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 126.479, \"end\": 126.579, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 126.579, \"end\": 126.719, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 126.719, \"end\": 126.84, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 126.84, \"end\": 127.04, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 127.04, \"end\": 127.28, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 127.28, \"end\": 127.58, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 127.58, \"end\": 127.6, \"score\": 0.181}]}, {\"start\": 128.18, \"end\": 142.353, \"text\": \"那第二個部分一定是新政府跟新國會之間的協議那這個協議的結果一定還要再遇到兩個問題社會共識的同意第三個是安全無虞我認為這四個是很重要的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 128.18, \"end\": 128.34, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 128.34, \"end\": 128.46, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 128.46, \"end\": 128.881, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 128.881, \"end\": 129.021, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 129.021, \"end\": 129.181, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 129.181, \"end\": 129.261, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 129.261, \"end\": 129.441, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 129.441, \"end\": 130.022, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 130.022, \"end\": 130.202, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 130.202, \"end\": 130.402, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 130.402, \"end\": 131.163, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 131.163, \"end\": 131.363, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 131.363, \"end\": 131.823, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 131.823, \"end\": 132.224, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 132.224, \"end\": 133.585, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 133.585, \"end\": 134.166, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 134.166, \"end\": 134.506, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 134.506, \"end\": 134.786, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 134.786, \"end\": 134.906, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 134.906, \"end\": 135.187, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 135.187, \"end\": 135.307, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 135.307, \"end\": 135.447, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"遇\", \"start\": 135.447, \"end\": 135.627, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 135.627, \"end\": 136.528, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", 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{\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 594.93, \"end\": 595.31, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"證\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 595.31, \"end\": 595.451, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 595.451, \"end\": 595.571, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 595.571, \"end\": 595.711, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 595.711, \"end\": 595.891, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 595.891, \"end\": 596.151, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"效\", \"start\": 596.151, \"end\": 596.432, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 596.432, \"end\": 596.452, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 596.772, \"end\": 596.792, \"score\": 0.05}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,149 --> 00:00:14,653\n第 二 位 鄭 正 鈐 委 員 請 做 詢 答 。 謝 謝 主 席 , 我 想 請 一 下 劉 主 委 。 好 , 我 們 再 請 劉 主 委 。 好 , 請 上 發 言 台 。\n\n2\n00:00:18,393 --> 00:00:44,541\n委 員 長 昨 天 好 , 看 到 你 剛 剛 花 了 二 十 幾 分 鐘 在 做 一 個 報 告 我 在 想 說 裡 面 有 幾 個 重 要 的 問 題 其 中 我 想 先 問 一 個 狀 態 其 實 它 在 你 報 告 裡 面 沒 有 提 到 的 是 因 為 你 昨 天 特 別 提 到 說 你 不 排 斥 重 啟 核 電 這 件 事 情 你 可 以 把 這 個 部 分 再 把 它 說 清 楚 一 下 你 當 時 提 到 了 三 個 原 則 在 怎 麼 樣 的 情 況 之 下 的 時 候 我 們 可 以 重 啟 核 電 或 者 是 核 電 演 繹 , 請 一 併 說 明\n\n3\n00:00:50,719 --> 00:01:14,914\n我 説 明 一 下 其 實 媒 體 有 點 誤 解 我 的 三 原 則 主 要 是 在 看 從 當 時 我 的 三 原 則 談 的 是 產 業 的 角 度 其 實 我 談 兩 個 一 個 我 對 我 們 看 怎 麼 看 核 電 我 先 講 產 業 的 角 度 我 來 自 產 業 產 業 其 實 要 一 個 是 安 全 穩 定 的 供 電 那 它 其 實 這 個 電 是 來 自 於 哪 一 種 電 其 實 對 企 業 而 言 其 實 坦 白 講 不 是 重 點\n\n4\n00:01:15,970 --> 00:01:20,474\n所 以 你 講 到 一 個 重 點 的 部 分 就 是 電 要 夠 所 以 說 在 電 不 夠 的 情 況 之 下 的 時 候 呢 你 覺 得 重 啟 核 電 或 者 是 讓 核 電 延 逸 你 覺 得 是 可 行 的 對 不 對\n\n5\n00:01:45,831 --> 00:02:07,600\n我 沒 有 說 可 行 因 為 他 必 須 有 四 個 條 件 要 做 到 第 一 個 是 法 令 的 條 件 能 不 能 過 關 其 實 我 開 過 會 從 現 在 各 種 法 令 下 來 他 至 少 要 五 年 後 才 有 機 會 當 時 河 岸 會 也 有 提 到 因 為 這 是 法 令 的 問 題 所 有 的 公 務 員 一 定 是 依 法 行 事\n\n6\n00:02:08,180 --> 00:02:22,353\n那 第 二 個 部 分 一 定 是 新 政 府 跟 新 國 會 之 間 的 協 議 那 這 個 協 議 的 結 果 一 定 還 要 再 遇 到 兩 個 問 題 社 會 共 識 的 同 意 第 三 個 是 安 全 無 虞 我 認 為 這 四 個 是 很 重 要 的\n\n7\n00:02:23,554 --> 00:02:41,399\n不 過 我 必 須 老 實 講 你 這 個 回 答 已 經 比 前 一 任 蔡 政 府 時 代 的 官 員 有 很 大 的 一 個 突 破 我 在 2 0 2 0 年 問 元 農 會 主 委 的 時 候 他 光 是 回 答 一 個 核 能 是 低 碳 的 店 的 時 候 他 後 來 就 很 緊 張 叫 我 可 不 可 以 以 後 不 要 問 他 這 樣 子 的 一 個 問 題\n\n8\n00:02:42,619 --> 00:02:43,440\n民 進 黨 的 能 源 政 策 其 實 有 可 能 調 整 的\n\n9\n00:03:04,532 --> 00:03:15,248\n目 前 我 們 非 核 家 園 是 沒 有 改 變 的 我 們 追 求 長 期 一 定 要 做 到 非 核 家 園 那 我 坦 白 講 2 0 2 5 年 之 前 會 做 到 非 核 家 園 嗎 ?\n\n10\n00:03:17,227 --> 00:03:44,033\n我 剛 剛 講 的 是 長 期 , 2 0 2 5 年 我 不 知 道 , 我 還 是 要 去 . . . 2 0 2 5 年 就 是 明 年 了 , 主 委 ! 2 0 2 5 年 就 是 明 年 了 , 不 長 期 啊 ! 你 如 果 說 到 , 比 方 說 在 5 0 年 之 後 才 要 變 成 廢 核 家 園 , 那 是 另 外 一 個 i s s u e 重 點 是 , 民 進 黨 之 前 宣 布 是 2 0 2 5 年 廢 核 家 園 要 達 成 這 樣 的 一 個 目 標 所 以 明 年 就 是 2 0 2 5 年 了 所 以 你 剛 剛 提 到 這 個 問 題 , 我 特 別 就 是 要 請 教 , 2 0 2 5 年 的 時 候\n\n11\n00:03:46,374 --> 00:03:51,222\n是 不 是 就 有 可 能 對 於 核 能 研 議 的 部 分 他 就 會 往 前 走 ?\n\n12\n00:03:54,318 --> 00:04:20,591\n就 我 所 知 道 的 這 個 會 議 知 道 的 他 很 難 他 要 研 議 要 遵 循 法 令 那 遵 循 法 令 的 話 目 前 來 看 的 話 他 目 前 是 法 令 上 是 沒 辦 法 做 研 議 所 以 他 要 再 重 啟 其 實 應 該 是 在 你 剛 講 4 、 5 年 之 後 有 可 能 重 啟 嘛 對 不 對 沒 有 當 時 他 的 講 法 是 這 樣 就 是 台 電 要 提 出 一 個 報 告 大 概 要 1 . 5 年 然 後 送 核 安 會 之 後 他 的 審 核 在 1 . 5 年\n\n13\n00:04:21,812 --> 00:04:50,181\n然 後 三 年 之 後 回 到 臺 電 以 後 臺 電 要 依 河 岸 的 要 求 去 做 修 就 是 就 做 各 種 的 主 委 這 個 部 分 都 沒 有 問 題 因 為 其 實 我 們 一 個 政 策 的 一 個 轉 變 它 一 定 有 它 的 時 程 重 點 是 你 剛 剛 講 說 長 期 來 看 的 時 候 非 核 家 園 目 標 沒 有 變 可 是 重 點 是 明 年 就 是 之 前 民 進 黨 宣 誓 的 2 0 2 5 年 非 核 家 園 的 一 個 時 間 點 那 2 0 2 5 年 這 個 部 分 的 時 候 這 個 政 策 的 目 標 是 不 是 會 改 變\n\n14\n00:04:51,801 --> 00:05:07,438\n我 大 概 比 較 用 企 業 的 角 度 外 觀 來 看 它 按 照 現 在 的 法 令 走 的 話 2 0 2 5 年 一 定 是 會 停 下 來 啦 那 停 下 來 之 後 呢 未 來 的 5 年 也 很 難 有 所 以 我 比 較 在 意 的 是 那 我 們 能 不 能 給 民 眾 足 夠 的 電 那 這 個 電 我 其 實 問 過 台 電 兩 次\n\n15\n00:05:13,885 --> 00:05:33,523\n昨 天 彥 之 委 員 在 問 台 電 的 時 候 他 就 講 到 說 上 個 月 下 大 雨 板 橋 停 電 然 後 台 電 回 答 說 那 不 是 停 電 沒 有 供 電 不 是 停 電 那 是 異 常 這 台 電 現 在 在 凹 的 一 個 態 度 那 我 這 邊 也 特 別 提 到 我 們 看 一 下 目 前 整 個 的 一 個 發 電 去 年 的 一 個 發 電 的 一 個 情 況\n\n16\n00:05:35,345 --> 00:06:01,561\n整 個 毛 發 電 量 的 部 分 燃 煤 、 燃 油 、 燃 氣 三 個 部 分 占 比 高 達 8 3 . 1 % 您 剛 剛 提 到 說 幾 個 狀 態 說 實 話 你 提 到 了 一 個 低 碳 發 電 這 件 低 碳 的 電 夠 不 夠 這 件 事 情 的 時 候 我 覺 得 這 是 一 個 很 好 的 一 件 因 為 之 前 的 官 員 當 中 也 很 少 提 到 低 碳 電 的 問 題 我 想 問 一 下 諸 位 這 裡 面 有 哪 些 是 低 碳 電\n\n17\n00:06:03,919 --> 00:06:17,151\n這 裏 面 再 生 能 源 、 抽 蓄 跟 核 能 是 低 碳 的 就 下 面 三 個 是 低 碳 電 嘛 對 不 對 上 面 三 個 都 是 高 碳 電 所 以 目 前 低 碳 電 當 中 所 佔 的 比 重 大 概 只 有 1 6 %\n\n18\n00:06:18,832 --> 00:06:42,311\n但 1 6 . 7 % 大 概 就 這 麼 多 所 以 台 灣 如 果 說 低 碳 電 要 夠 顯 然 是 有 很 大 的 努 力 的 一 個 空 間 要 去 做 所 以 我 覺 得 整 個 能 源 政 策 肯 定 其 實 是 需 要 去 稍 微 做 一 些 調 整 你 剛 剛 報 告 當 中 你 也 提 到 一 個 A I 產 業 對 台 灣 對 全 球 有 非 常 大 的 貢 獻 那 事 實 上 台 灣 目 前 整 個 A I 產 業 當 中 有 一 個 很 重 要 部 分 就 是 算 力 其 實 是 不 夠 的\n\n19\n00:06:43,232 --> 00:07:10,763\n台 灣 沒 有 一 個 真 的 國 家 級 的 一 個 算 力 中 心 目 前 真 的 有 在 國 網 中 心 他 要 去 投 入 3 億 元 台 幣 要 去 做 提 升 算 力 的 一 個 動 作 主 委 這 樣 夠 不 夠 這 個 我 們 跟 台 電 開 過 會 他 確 定 是 足 夠 的 我 得 到 訊 息 很 確 定 足 夠 你 說 怎 麼 樣 足 夠 我 剛 才 問 說 3 億 元 要 做 一 個 算 力 中 心 夠 不 夠 我 現 在 不 再 問 電 的 問 題 對 我 的 瞭 解 算 力 中 心 3 億 元 國 網 中 心 去 做 這 樣 夠 嗎\n\n20\n00:07:16,037 --> 00:07:27,069\n三 億 元 要 去 成 立 一 個 算 力 中 心 超 算 中 心 不 是 電 的 問 題 電 的 問 題 是 下 一 個 i s s u e 三 億 元 要 去 做 一 個 算 力 中 心 顯 然 是 不 夠 的\n\n21\n00:07:27,990 --> 00:07:49,856\n主 委 這 是 一 個 很 簡 單 的 狀 態 我 在 問 算 力 中 心 夠 不 夠 不 是 電 夠 不 夠 電 夠 不 夠 是 接 下 來 的 問 題 說 實 話 台 電 跟 我 講 說 現 在 要 成 立 算 力 中 心 他 其 實 是 非 常 擔 心 的 所 以 你 這 邊 也 特 別 提 到 了 就 是 A I 它 要 用 的 G P U 當 中 比 原 本 傳 統 的 G P U 當 中 至 少 用 電 超 過 1 0 倍 所 以 這 個 部 分\n\n22\n00:07:51,427 --> 00:08:13,922\n顯 然 是 很 緊 繃 的 臺 電 這 邊 直 接 跟 我 講 說 臺 灣 成 立 算 力 中 心 的 時 候 電 是 一 個 大 的 問 題 所 以 在 北 部 基 本 上 是 不 太 可 能 去 成 立 算 力 中 心 他 直 接 講 新 竹 以 北 都 不 可 能 除 非 有 國 家 重 大 建 設 這 臺 電 給 我 的 答 案 那 你 現 在 講 說 臺 電 跟 你 講 說 電 完 全 沒 有 問 題 我 們 要 成 立 算 力 中 心 都 沒 有 問 題 是 這 樣 子 嗎 ?\n\n23\n00:08:17,721 --> 00:08:25,767\n這 個 我 可 能 再 去 多 瞭 解 但 是 好 那 個 對 這 個 部 分 因 為 我 本 來 在 想 說 你 算 是\n\n24\n00:08:27,288 --> 00:08:51,704\n民 進 黨 部 長 當 中 第 一 個 很 清 楚 去 講 到 對 於 核 能 狀 態 用 一 個 更 開 放 的 態 度 我 們 覺 得 這 個 狀 態 是 肯 定 的 那 如 果 說 前 提 是 電 要 夠 的 時 候 台 灣 現 在 在 發 展 很 多 的 產 業 企 業 已 經 從 數 位 轉 型 轉 到 A I 轉 型 這 個 情 況 用 電 量 會 大 增 所 以 用 電 的 部 分 肯 定 也 是 我 們\n\n25\n00:08:52,584 --> 00:09:08,711\n關 注 的 一 個 問 題 然 後 我 在 這 邊 另 外 再 附 帶 兩 件 事 都 是 你 報 告 裡 面 有 提 到 的 就 是 我 們 的 少 子 化 問 題 極 為 嚴 重 2 0 2 0 年 之 後 就 已 經 出 現 生 不 如 死 的 一 個 情 況 那 這 個 情 況 越 來 越 加 劇 那 我 們 要 怎 麼 樣 去\n\n26\n00:09:09,651 --> 00:09:19,203\n改 變 這 樣 的 一 個 情 況 我 覺 得 移 民 政 策 很 重 要 因 為 這 個 部 分 已 經 不 是 我 們 花 錢 就 可 以 去 解 決 因 為 在 過 去 這 幾 年 政 府 總 共 花 了 將 近 5 0 0 0 億 4 9 4 9 億 結 果 沒 有 什 麼 成 效\n\n27\n00:09:25,350 --> 00:09:25,510\n委 員 會 主 席\n\n28\n00:09:41,374 --> 00:09:56,452\n就 是 就 業 工 作 延 長 的 一 個 狀 態 然 後 如 何 運 用 科 技 的 力 量 取 代 人 力 然 後 如 何 去 面 對 人 口 衰 退 的 這 個 事 情 我 想 這 些 部 分 是 重 要 的 在 砸 錢 要 去 增 加 人 口 顯 然 已 經 過 去 這 幾 年 證 明 是 沒 有 成 效 的\n\n29\n00:09:56,772 --> 00:09:56,792\n好 , 謝 謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n149\t14653\t第二位鄭正鈐委員請做詢答。謝謝主席,我想請一下劉主委。好,我們再請劉主委。好,請上發言台。\n18393\t44541\t委員長昨天好,看到你剛剛花了二十幾分鐘在做一個報告我在想說裡面有幾個重要的問題其中我想先問一個狀態其實它在你報告裡面沒有提到的是因為你昨天特別提到說你不排斥重啟核電這件事情你可以把這個部分再把它說清楚一下你當時提到了三個原則在怎麼樣的情況之下的時候我們可以重啟核電或者是核電演繹,請一併說明\n50719\t74914\t我説明一下其實媒體有點誤解我的三原則主要是在看從當時我的三原則談的是產業的角度其實我談兩個一個我對我們看怎麼看核電我先講產業的角度我來自產業產業其實要一個是安全穩定的供電那它其實這個電是來自於哪一種電其實對企業而言其實坦白講不是重點\n75970\t80474\t所以你講到一個重點的部分就是電要夠所以說在電不夠的情況之下的時候呢你覺得重啟核電或者是讓核電延逸你覺得是可行的對不對\n105831\t127600\t我沒有說可行因為他必須有四個條件要做到第一個是法令的條件能不能過關其實我開過會從現在各種法令下來他至少要五年後才有機會當時河岸會也有提到因為這是法令的問題所有的公務員一定是依法行事\n128180\t142353\t那第二個部分一定是新政府跟新國會之間的協議那這個協議的結果一定還要再遇到兩個問題社會共識的同意第三個是安全無虞我認為這四個是很重要的\n143554\t161399\t不過我必須老實講你這個回答已經比前一任蔡政府時代的官員有很大的一個突破我在2020年問元農會主委的時候他光是回答一個核能是低碳的店的時候他後來就很緊張叫我可不可以以後不要問他這樣子的一個問題\n162619\t163440\t民進黨的能源政策其實有可能調整的\n184532\t195248\t目前我們非核家園是沒有改變的我們追求長期一定要做到非核家園那我坦白講2025年之前會做到非核家園嗎?\n197227\t224033\t我剛剛講的是長期,2025年我不知道,我還是要去...2025年就是明年了,主委!2025年就是明年了,不長期啊!你如果說到,比方說在50年之後才要變成廢核家園,那是另外一個issue重點是,民進黨之前宣布是2025年廢核家園要達成這樣的一個目標所以明年就是2025年了所以你剛剛提到這個問題,我特別就是要請教,2025年的時候\n226374\t231222\t是不是就有可能對於核能研議的部分他就會往前走?\n234318\t260591\t就我所知道的這個會議知道的他很難他要研議要遵循法令那遵循法令的話目前來看的話他目前是法令上是沒辦法做研議所以他要再重啟其實應該是在你剛講4、5年之後有可能重啟嘛對不對沒有當時他的講法是這樣就是台電要提出一個報告大概要1.5年然後送核安會之後他的審核在1.5年\n261812\t290181\t然後三年之後回到臺電以後臺電要依河岸的要求去做修就是就做各種的 主委這個部分都沒有問題因為其實我們一個政策的一個轉變它一定有它的時程重點是你剛剛講說長期來看的時候非核家園目標沒有變可是重點是明年就是之前民進黨宣誓的2025年非核家園的一個時間點那2025年這個部分的時候這個政策的目標是不是會改變\n291801\t307438\t我大概比較用企業的角度外觀來看它按照現在的法令走的話2025年一定是會停下來啦那停下來之後呢未來的5年也很難有所以我比較在意的是那我們能不能給民眾足夠的電那這個電我其實問過台電兩次\n313885\t333523\t昨天彥之委員在問台電的時候他就講到說上個月下大雨板橋停電然後台電回答說那不是停電沒有供電不是停電那是異常這台電現在在凹的一個態度那我這邊也特別提到我們看一下目前整個的一個發電去年的一個發電的一個情況\n335345\t361561\t整個毛發電量的部分燃煤、燃油、燃氣三個部分占比高達83.1%您剛剛提到說幾個狀態說實話你提到了一個低碳發電這件低碳的電夠不夠這件事情的時候我覺得這是一個很好的一件因為之前的官員當中也很少提到低碳電的問題我想問一下諸位這裡面有哪些是低碳電\n363919\t377151\t這裏面再生能源、抽蓄跟核能是低碳的就下面三個是低碳電嘛 對不對上面三個都是高碳電所以目前低碳電當中所佔的比重大概只有16%\n378832\t402311\t但16.7%大概就這麼多所以台灣如果說低碳電要夠顯然是有很大的努力的一個空間要去做所以我覺得整個能源政策肯定其實是需要去稍微做一些調整你剛剛報告當中你也提到一個AI產業對台灣對全球有非常大的貢獻那事實上台灣目前整個AI產業當中有一個很重要部分就是算力其實是不夠的\n403232\t430763\t台灣沒有一個真的國家級的一個算力中心目前真的有在國網中心他要去投入3億元台幣要去做提升算力的一個動作主委這樣夠不夠這個我們跟台電開過會他確定是足夠的我得到訊息很確定足夠你說怎麼樣足夠我剛才問說3億元要做一個算力中心夠不夠我現在不再問電的問題對我的瞭解算力中心3億元國網中心去做這樣夠嗎\n436037\t447069\t三億元要去成立一個算力中心 超算中心不是電的問題 電的問題是下一個issue三億元要去做一個算力中心顯然是不夠的\n447990\t469856\t主委這是一個很簡單的狀態我在問算力中心夠不夠不是電夠不夠電夠不夠是接下來的問題說實話台電跟我講說現在要成立算力中心他其實是非常擔心的所以你這邊也特別提到了就是AI它要用的GPU當中比原本傳統的GPU當中至少用電超過10倍所以這個部分\n471427\t493922\t顯然是很緊繃的臺電這邊直接跟我講說臺灣成立算力中心的時候電是一個大的問題所以在北部基本上是不太可能去成立算力中心他直接講新竹以北都不可能除非有國家重大建設這臺電給我的答案那你現在講說臺電跟你講說電完全沒有問題我們要成立算力中心都沒有問題是這樣子嗎?\n497721\t505767\t這個我可能再去多瞭解但是好那個對這個部分因為我本來在想說你算是\n507288\t531704\t民進黨部長當中第一個很清楚去講到對於核能狀態用一個更開放的態度我們覺得這個狀態是肯定的那如果說前提是電要夠的時候台灣現在在發展很多的產業企業已經從數位轉型轉到AI轉型這個情況用電量會大增所以用電的部分肯定也是我們\n532584\t548711\t關注的一個問題然後我在這邊另外再附帶兩件事都是你報告裡面有提到的就是我們的少子化問題極為嚴重2020年之後就已經出現生不如死的一個情況那這個情況越來越加劇那我們要怎麼樣去\n549651\t559203\t改變這樣的一個情況我覺得移民政策很重要因為這個部分已經不是我們花錢就可以去解決因為在過去這幾年政府總共花了將近5000億4949億結果沒有什麼成效\n565350\t565510\t委員會主席\n581374\t596452\t就是就業工作延長的一個狀態然後如何運用科技的力量取代人力然後如何去面對人口衰退的這個事情我想這些部分是重要的在砸錢要去增加人口顯然已經過去這幾年證明是沒有成效的\n596772\t596792\t好,謝謝\n","txt":"第二位鄭正鈐委員請做詢答。謝謝主席,我想請一下劉主委。好,我們再請劉主委。好,請上發言台。\n委員長昨天好,看到你剛剛花了二十幾分鐘在做一個報告我在想說裡面有幾個重要的問題其中我想先問一個狀態其實它在你報告裡面沒有提到的是因為你昨天特別提到說你不排斥重啟核電這件事情你可以把這個部分再把它說清楚一下你當時提到了三個原則在怎麼樣的情況之下的時候我們可以重啟核電或者是核電演繹,請一併說明\n我説明一下其實媒體有點誤解我的三原則主要是在看從當時我的三原則談的是產業的角度其實我談兩個一個我對我們看怎麼看核電我先講產業的角度我來自產業產業其實要一個是安全穩定的供電那它其實這個電是來自於哪一種電其實對企業而言其實坦白講不是重點\n所以你講到一個重點的部分就是電要夠所以說在電不夠的情況之下的時候呢你覺得重啟核電或者是讓核電延逸你覺得是可行的對不對\n我沒有說可行因為他必須有四個條件要做到第一個是法令的條件能不能過關其實我開過會從現在各種法令下來他至少要五年後才有機會當時河岸會也有提到因為這是法令的問題所有的公務員一定是依法行事\n那第二個部分一定是新政府跟新國會之間的協議那這個協議的結果一定還要再遇到兩個問題社會共識的同意第三個是安全無虞我認為這四個是很重要的\n不過我必須老實講你這個回答已經比前一任蔡政府時代的官員有很大的一個突破我在2020年問元農會主委的時候他光是回答一個核能是低碳的店的時候他後來就很緊張叫我可不可以以後不要問他這樣子的一個問題\n民進黨的能源政策其實有可能調整的\n目前我們非核家園是沒有改變的我們追求長期一定要做到非核家園那我坦白講2025年之前會做到非核家園嗎?\n我剛剛講的是長期,2025年我不知道,我還是要去...2025年就是明年了,主委!2025年就是明年了,不長期啊!你如果說到,比方說在50年之後才要變成廢核家園,那是另外一個issue重點是,民進黨之前宣布是2025年廢核家園要達成這樣的一個目標所以明年就是2025年了所以你剛剛提到這個問題,我特別就是要請教,2025年的時候\n是不是就有可能對於核能研議的部分他就會往前走?\n就我所知道的這個會議知道的他很難他要研議要遵循法令那遵循法令的話目前來看的話他目前是法令上是沒辦法做研議所以他要再重啟其實應該是在你剛講4、5年之後有可能重啟嘛對不對沒有當時他的講法是這樣就是台電要提出一個報告大概要1.5年然後送核安會之後他的審核在1.5年\n然後三年之後回到臺電以後臺電要依河岸的要求去做修就是就做各種的 主委這個部分都沒有問題因為其實我們一個政策的一個轉變它一定有它的時程重點是你剛剛講說長期來看的時候非核家園目標沒有變可是重點是明年就是之前民進黨宣誓的2025年非核家園的一個時間點那2025年這個部分的時候這個政策的目標是不是會改變\n我大概比較用企業的角度外觀來看它按照現在的法令走的話2025年一定是會停下來啦那停下來之後呢未來的5年也很難有所以我比較在意的是那我們能不能給民眾足夠的電那這個電我其實問過台電兩次\n昨天彥之委員在問台電的時候他就講到說上個月下大雨板橋停電然後台電回答說那不是停電沒有供電不是停電那是異常這台電現在在凹的一個態度那我這邊也特別提到我們看一下目前整個的一個發電去年的一個發電的一個情況\n整個毛發電量的部分燃煤、燃油、燃氣三個部分占比高達83.1%您剛剛提到說幾個狀態說實話你提到了一個低碳發電這件低碳的電夠不夠這件事情的時候我覺得這是一個很好的一件因為之前的官員當中也很少提到低碳電的問題我想問一下諸位這裡面有哪些是低碳電\n這裏面再生能源、抽蓄跟核能是低碳的就下面三個是低碳電嘛 對不對上面三個都是高碳電所以目前低碳電當中所佔的比重大概只有16%\n但16.7%大概就這麼多所以台灣如果說低碳電要夠顯然是有很大的努力的一個空間要去做所以我覺得整個能源政策肯定其實是需要去稍微做一些調整你剛剛報告當中你也提到一個AI產業對台灣對全球有非常大的貢獻那事實上台灣目前整個AI產業當中有一個很重要部分就是算力其實是不夠的\n台灣沒有一個真的國家級的一個算力中心目前真的有在國網中心他要去投入3億元台幣要去做提升算力的一個動作主委這樣夠不夠這個我們跟台電開過會他確定是足夠的我得到訊息很確定足夠你說怎麼樣足夠我剛才問說3億元要做一個算力中心夠不夠我現在不再問電的問題對我的瞭解算力中心3億元國網中心去做這樣夠嗎\n三億元要去成立一個算力中心 超算中心不是電的問題 電的問題是下一個issue三億元要去做一個算力中心顯然是不夠的\n主委這是一個很簡單的狀態我在問算力中心夠不夠不是電夠不夠電夠不夠是接下來的問題說實話台電跟我講說現在要成立算力中心他其實是非常擔心的所以你這邊也特別提到了就是AI它要用的GPU當中比原本傳統的GPU當中至少用電超過10倍所以這個部分\n顯然是很緊繃的臺電這邊直接跟我講說臺灣成立算力中心的時候電是一個大的問題所以在北部基本上是不太可能去成立算力中心他直接講新竹以北都不可能除非有國家重大建設這臺電給我的答案那你現在講說臺電跟你講說電完全沒有問題我們要成立算力中心都沒有問題是這樣子嗎?\n這個我可能再去多瞭解但是好那個對這個部分因為我本來在想說你算是\n民進黨部長當中第一個很清楚去講到對於核能狀態用一個更開放的態度我們覺得這個狀態是肯定的那如果說前提是電要夠的時候台灣現在在發展很多的產業企業已經從數位轉型轉到AI轉型這個情況用電量會大增所以用電的部分肯定也是我們\n關注的一個問題然後我在這邊另外再附帶兩件事都是你報告裡面有提到的就是我們的少子化問題極為嚴重2020年之後就已經出現生不如死的一個情況那這個情況越來越加劇那我們要怎麼樣去\n改變這樣的一個情況我覺得移民政策很重要因為這個部分已經不是我們花錢就可以去解決因為在過去這幾年政府總共花了將近5000億4949億結果沒有什麼成效\n委員會主席\n就是就業工作延長的一個狀態然後如何運用科技的力量取代人力然後如何去面對人口衰退的這個事情我想這些部分是重要的在砸錢要去增加人口顯然已經過去這幾年證明是沒有成效的\n好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.149 --> 00:14.653\n第 二 位 鄭 正 鈐 委 員 請 做 詢 答 。 謝 謝 主 席 , 我 想 請 一 下 劉 主 委 。 好 , 我 們 再 請 劉 主 委 。 好 , 請 上 發 言 台 。\n\n00:18.393 --> 00:44.541\n委 員 長 昨 天 好 , 看 到 你 剛 剛 花 了 二 十 幾 分 鐘 在 做 一 個 報 告 我 在 想 說 裡 面 有 幾 個 重 要 的 問 題 其 中 我 想 先 問 一 個 狀 態 其 實 它 在 你 報 告 裡 面 沒 有 提 到 的 是 因 為 你 昨 天 特 別 提 到 說 你 不 排 斥 重 啟 核 電 這 件 事 情 你 可 以 把 這 個 部 分 再 把 它 說 清 楚 一 下 你 當 時 提 到 了 三 個 原 則 在 怎 麼 樣 的 情 況 之 下 的 時 候 我 們 可 以 重 啟 核 電 或 者 是 核 電 演 繹 , 請 一 併 說 明\n\n00:50.719 --> 01:14.914\n我 説 明 一 下 其 實 媒 體 有 點 誤 解 我 的 三 原 則 主 要 是 在 看 從 當 時 我 的 三 原 則 談 的 是 產 業 的 角 度 其 實 我 談 兩 個 一 個 我 對 我 們 看 怎 麼 看 核 電 我 先 講 產 業 的 角 度 我 來 自 產 業 產 業 其 實 要 一 個 是 安 全 穩 定 的 供 電 那 它 其 實 這 個 電 是 來 自 於 哪 一 種 電 其 實 對 企 業 而 言 其 實 坦 白 講 不 是 重 點\n\n01:15.970 --> 01:20.474\n所 以 你 講 到 一 個 重 點 的 部 分 就 是 電 要 夠 所 以 說 在 電 不 夠 的 情 況 之 下 的 時 候 呢 你 覺 得 重 啟 核 電 或 者 是 讓 核 電 延 逸 你 覺 得 是 可 行 的 對 不 對\n\n01:45.831 --> 02:07.600\n我 沒 有 說 可 行 因 為 他 必 須 有 四 個 條 件 要 做 到 第 一 個 是 法 令 的 條 件 能 不 能 過 關 其 實 我 開 過 會 從 現 在 各 種 法 令 下 來 他 至 少 要 五 年 後 才 有 機 會 當 時 河 岸 會 也 有 提 到 因 為 這 是 法 令 的 問 題 所 有 的 公 務 員 一 定 是 依 法 行 事\n\n02:08.180 --> 02:22.353\n那 第 二 個 部 分 一 定 是 新 政 府 跟 新 國 會 之 間 的 協 議 那 這 個 協 議 的 結 果 一 定 還 要 再 遇 到 兩 個 問 題 社 會 共 識 的 同 意 第 三 個 是 安 全 無 虞 我 認 為 這 四 個 是 很 重 要 的\n\n02:23.554 --> 02:41.399\n不 過 我 必 須 老 實 講 你 這 個 回 答 已 經 比 前 一 任 蔡 政 府 時 代 的 官 員 有 很 大 的 一 個 突 破 我 在 2 0 2 0 年 問 元 農 會 主 委 的 時 候 他 光 是 回 答 一 個 核 能 是 低 碳 的 店 的 時 候 他 後 來 就 很 緊 張 叫 我 可 不 可 以 以 後 不 要 問 他 這 樣 子 的 一 個 問 題\n\n02:42.619 --> 02:43.440\n民 進 黨 的 能 源 政 策 其 實 有 可 能 調 整 的\n\n03:04.532 --> 03:15.248\n目 前 我 們 非 核 家 園 是 沒 有 改 變 的 我 們 追 求 長 期 一 定 要 做 到 非 核 家 園 那 我 坦 白 講 2 0 2 5 年 之 前 會 做 到 非 核 家 園 嗎 ?\n\n03:17.227 --> 03:44.033\n我 剛 剛 講 的 是 長 期 , 2 0 2 5 年 我 不 知 道 , 我 還 是 要 去 . . . 2 0 2 5 年 就 是 明 年 了 , 主 委 ! 2 0 2 5 年 就 是 明 年 了 , 不 長 期 啊 ! 你 如 果 說 到 , 比 方 說 在 5 0 年 之 後 才 要 變 成 廢 核 家 園 , 那 是 另 外 一 個 i s s u e 重 點 是 , 民 進 黨 之 前 宣 布 是 2 0 2 5 年 廢 核 家 園 要 達 成 這 樣 的 一 個 目 標 所 以 明 年 就 是 2 0 2 5 年 了 所 以 你 剛 剛 提 到 這 個 問 題 , 我 特 別 就 是 要 請 教 , 2 0 2 5 年 的 時 候\n\n03:46.374 --> 03:51.222\n是 不 是 就 有 可 能 對 於 核 能 研 議 的 部 分 他 就 會 往 前 走 ?\n\n03:54.318 --> 04:20.591\n就 我 所 知 道 的 這 個 會 議 知 道 的 他 很 難 他 要 研 議 要 遵 循 法 令 那 遵 循 法 令 的 話 目 前 來 看 的 話 他 目 前 是 法 令 上 是 沒 辦 法 做 研 議 所 以 他 要 再 重 啟 其 實 應 該 是 在 你 剛 講 4 、 5 年 之 後 有 可 能 重 啟 嘛 對 不 對 沒 有 當 時 他 的 講 法 是 這 樣 就 是 台 電 要 提 出 一 個 報 告 大 概 要 1 . 5 年 然 後 送 核 安 會 之 後 他 的 審 核 在 1 . 5 年\n\n04:21.812 --> 04:50.181\n然 後 三 年 之 後 回 到 臺 電 以 後 臺 電 要 依 河 岸 的 要 求 去 做 修 就 是 就 做 各 種 的 主 委 這 個 部 分 都 沒 有 問 題 因 為 其 實 我 們 一 個 政 策 的 一 個 轉 變 它 一 定 有 它 的 時 程 重 點 是 你 剛 剛 講 說 長 期 來 看 的 時 候 非 核 家 園 目 標 沒 有 變 可 是 重 點 是 明 年 就 是 之 前 民 進 黨 宣 誓 的 2 0 2 5 年 非 核 家 園 的 一 個 時 間 點 那 2 0 2 5 年 這 個 部 分 的 時 候 這 個 政 策 的 目 標 是 不 是 會 改 變\n\n04:51.801 --> 05:07.438\n我 大 概 比 較 用 企 業 的 角 度 外 觀 來 看 它 按 照 現 在 的 法 令 走 的 話 2 0 2 5 年 一 定 是 會 停 下 來 啦 那 停 下 來 之 後 呢 未 來 的 5 年 也 很 難 有 所 以 我 比 較 在 意 的 是 那 我 們 能 不 能 給 民 眾 足 夠 的 電 那 這 個 電 我 其 實 問 過 台 電 兩 次\n\n05:13.885 --> 05:33.523\n昨 天 彥 之 委 員 在 問 台 電 的 時 候 他 就 講 到 說 上 個 月 下 大 雨 板 橋 停 電 然 後 台 電 回 答 說 那 不 是 停 電 沒 有 供 電 不 是 停 電 那 是 異 常 這 台 電 現 在 在 凹 的 一 個 態 度 那 我 這 邊 也 特 別 提 到 我 們 看 一 下 目 前 整 個 的 一 個 發 電 去 年 的 一 個 發 電 的 一 個 情 況\n\n05:35.345 --> 06:01.561\n整 個 毛 發 電 量 的 部 分 燃 煤 、 燃 油 、 燃 氣 三 個 部 分 占 比 高 達 8 3 . 1 % 您 剛 剛 提 到 說 幾 個 狀 態 說 實 話 你 提 到 了 一 個 低 碳 發 電 這 件 低 碳 的 電 夠 不 夠 這 件 事 情 的 時 候 我 覺 得 這 是 一 個 很 好 的 一 件 因 為 之 前 的 官 員 當 中 也 很 少 提 到 低 碳 電 的 問 題 我 想 問 一 下 諸 位 這 裡 面 有 哪 些 是 低 碳 電\n\n06:03.919 --> 06:17.151\n這 裏 面 再 生 能 源 、 抽 蓄 跟 核 能 是 低 碳 的 就 下 面 三 個 是 低 碳 電 嘛 對 不 對 上 面 三 個 都 是 高 碳 電 所 以 目 前 低 碳 電 當 中 所 佔 的 比 重 大 概 只 有 1 6 %\n\n06:18.832 --> 06:42.311\n但 1 6 . 7 % 大 概 就 這 麼 多 所 以 台 灣 如 果 說 低 碳 電 要 夠 顯 然 是 有 很 大 的 努 力 的 一 個 空 間 要 去 做 所 以 我 覺 得 整 個 能 源 政 策 肯 定 其 實 是 需 要 去 稍 微 做 一 些 調 整 你 剛 剛 報 告 當 中 你 也 提 到 一 個 A I 產 業 對 台 灣 對 全 球 有 非 常 大 的 貢 獻 那 事 實 上 台 灣 目 前 整 個 A I 產 業 當 中 有 一 個 很 重 要 部 分 就 是 算 力 其 實 是 不 夠 的\n\n06:43.232 --> 07:10.763\n台 灣 沒 有 一 個 真 的 國 家 級 的 一 個 算 力 中 心 目 前 真 的 有 在 國 網 中 心 他 要 去 投 入 3 億 元 台 幣 要 去 做 提 升 算 力 的 一 個 動 作 主 委 這 樣 夠 不 夠 這 個 我 們 跟 台 電 開 過 會 他 確 定 是 足 夠 的 我 得 到 訊 息 很 確 定 足 夠 你 說 怎 麼 樣 足 夠 我 剛 才 問 說 3 億 元 要 做 一 個 算 力 中 心 夠 不 夠 我 現 在 不 再 問 電 的 問 題 對 我 的 瞭 解 算 力 中 心 3 億 元 國 網 中 心 去 做 這 樣 夠 嗎\n\n07:16.037 --> 07:27.069\n三 億 元 要 去 成 立 一 個 算 力 中 心 超 算 中 心 不 是 電 的 問 題 電 的 問 題 是 下 一 個 i s s u e 三 億 元 要 去 做 一 個 算 力 中 心 顯 然 是 不 夠 的\n\n07:27.990 --> 07:49.856\n主 委 這 是 一 個 很 簡 單 的 狀 態 我 在 問 算 力 中 心 夠 不 夠 不 是 電 夠 不 夠 電 夠 不 夠 是 接 下 來 的 問 題 說 實 話 台 電 跟 我 講 說 現 在 要 成 立 算 力 中 心 他 其 實 是 非 常 擔 心 的 所 以 你 這 邊 也 特 別 提 到 了 就 是 A I 它 要 用 的 G P U 當 中 比 原 本 傳 統 的 G P U 當 中 至 少 用 電 超 過 1 0 倍 所 以 這 個 部 分\n\n07:51.427 --> 08:13.922\n顯 然 是 很 緊 繃 的 臺 電 這 邊 直 接 跟 我 講 說 臺 灣 成 立 算 力 中 心 的 時 候 電 是 一 個 大 的 問 題 所 以 在 北 部 基 本 上 是 不 太 可 能 去 成 立 算 力 中 心 他 直 接 講 新 竹 以 北 都 不 可 能 除 非 有 國 家 重 大 建 設 這 臺 電 給 我 的 答 案 那 你 現 在 講 說 臺 電 跟 你 講 說 電 完 全 沒 有 問 題 我 們 要 成 立 算 力 中 心 都 沒 有 問 題 是 這 樣 子 嗎 ?\n\n08:17.721 --> 08:25.767\n這 個 我 可 能 再 去 多 瞭 解 但 是 好 那 個 對 這 個 部 分 因 為 我 本 來 在 想 說 你 算 是\n\n08:27.288 --> 08:51.704\n民 進 黨 部 長 當 中 第 一 個 很 清 楚 去 講 到 對 於 核 能 狀 態 用 一 個 更 開 放 的 態 度 我 們 覺 得 這 個 狀 態 是 肯 定 的 那 如 果 說 前 提 是 電 要 夠 的 時 候 台 灣 現 在 在 發 展 很 多 的 產 業 企 業 已 經 從 數 位 轉 型 轉 到 A I 轉 型 這 個 情 況 用 電 量 會 大 增 所 以 用 電 的 部 分 肯 定 也 是 我 們\n\n08:52.584 --> 09:08.711\n關 注 的 一 個 問 題 然 後 我 在 這 邊 另 外 再 附 帶 兩 件 事 都 是 你 報 告 裡 面 有 提 到 的 就 是 我 們 的 少 子 化 問 題 極 為 嚴 重 2 0 2 0 年 之 後 就 已 經 出 現 生 不 如 死 的 一 個 情 況 那 這 個 情 況 越 來 越 加 劇 那 我 們 要 怎 麼 樣 去\n\n09:09.651 --> 09:19.203\n改 變 這 樣 的 一 個 情 況 我 覺 得 移 民 政 策 很 重 要 因 為 這 個 部 分 已 經 不 是 我 們 花 錢 就 可 以 去 解 決 因 為 在 過 去 這 幾 年 政 府 總 共 花 了 將 近 5 0 0 0 億 4 9 4 9 億 結 果 沒 有 什 麼 成 效\n\n09:25.350 --> 09:25.510\n委 員 會 主 席\n\n09:41.374 --> 09:56.452\n就 是 就 業 工 作 延 長 的 一 個 狀 態 然 後 如 何 運 用 科 技 的 力 量 取 代 人 力 然 後 如 何 去 面 對 人 口 衰 退 的 這 個 事 情 我 想 這 些 部 分 是 重 要 的 在 砸 錢 要 去 增 加 人 口 顯 然 已 經 過 去 這 幾 年 證 明 是 沒 有 成 效 的\n\n09:56.772 --> 09:56.792\n好 , 謝 謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.149,"end":14.653,"text":"第二位鄭正鈐委員請做詢答。謝謝主席,我想請一下劉主委。好,我們再請劉主委。好,請上發言台。"},{"start":18.393,"end":44.541,"text":"委員長昨天好,看到你剛剛花了二十幾分鐘在做一個報告我在想說裡面有幾個重要的問題其中我想先問一個狀態其實它在你報告裡面沒有提到的是因為你昨天特別提到說你不排斥重啟核電這件事情你可以把這個部分再把它說清楚一下你當時提到了三個原則在怎麼樣的情況之下的時候我們可以重啟核電或者是核電演繹,請一併說明"},{"start":50.719,"end":74.914,"text":"我説明一下其實媒體有點誤解我的三原則主要是在看從當時我的三原則談的是產業的角度其實我談兩個一個我對我們看怎麼看核電我先講產業的角度我來自產業產業其實要一個是安全穩定的供電那它其實這個電是來自於哪一種電其實對企業而言其實坦白講不是重點"},{"start":75.97,"end":80.474,"text":"所以你講到一個重點的部分就是電要夠所以說在電不夠的情況之下的時候呢你覺得重啟核電或者是讓核電延逸你覺得是可行的對不對"},{"start":105.831,"end":127.6,"text":"我沒有說可行因為他必須有四個條件要做到第一個是法令的條件能不能過關其實我開過會從現在各種法令下來他至少要五年後才有機會當時河岸會也有提到因為這是法令的問題所有的公務員一定是依法行事"},{"start":128.18,"end":142.353,"text":"那第二個部分一定是新政府跟新國會之間的協議那這個協議的結果一定還要再遇到兩個問題社會共識的同意第三個是安全無虞我認為這四個是很重要的"},{"start":143.554,"end":161.399,"text":"不過我必須老實講你這個回答已經比前一任蔡政府時代的官員有很大的一個突破我在2020年問元農會主委的時候他光是回答一個核能是低碳的店的時候他後來就很緊張叫我可不可以以後不要問他這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":162.619,"end":163.44,"text":"民進黨的能源政策其實有可能調整的"},{"start":184.532,"end":195.248,"text":"目前我們非核家園是沒有改變的我們追求長期一定要做到非核家園那我坦白講2025年之前會做到非核家園嗎?"},{"start":197.227,"end":224.033,"text":"我剛剛講的是長期,2025年我不知道,我還是要去...2025年就是明年了,主委!2025年就是明年了,不長期啊!你如果說到,比方說在50年之後才要變成廢核家園,那是另外一個issue重點是,民進黨之前宣布是2025年廢核家園要達成這樣的一個目標所以明年就是2025年了所以你剛剛提到這個問題,我特別就是要請教,2025年的時候"},{"start":226.374,"end":231.222,"text":"是不是就有可能對於核能研議的部分他就會往前走?"},{"start":234.318,"end":260.591,"text":"就我所知道的這個會議知道的他很難他要研議要遵循法令那遵循法令的話目前來看的話他目前是法令上是沒辦法做研議所以他要再重啟其實應該是在你剛講4、5年之後有可能重啟嘛對不對沒有當時他的講法是這樣就是台電要提出一個報告大概要1.5年然後送核安會之後他的審核在1.5年"},{"start":261.812,"end":290.181,"text":"然後三年之後回到臺電以後臺電要依河岸的要求去做修就是就做各種的 主委這個部分都沒有問題因為其實我們一個政策的一個轉變它一定有它的時程重點是你剛剛講說長期來看的時候非核家園目標沒有變可是重點是明年就是之前民進黨宣誓的2025年非核家園的一個時間點那2025年這個部分的時候這個政策的目標是不是會改變"},{"start":291.801,"end":307.438,"text":"我大概比較用企業的角度外觀來看它按照現在的法令走的話2025年一定是會停下來啦那停下來之後呢未來的5年也很難有所以我比較在意的是那我們能不能給民眾足夠的電那這個電我其實問過台電兩次"},{"start":313.885,"end":333.523,"text":"昨天彥之委員在問台電的時候他就講到說上個月下大雨板橋停電然後台電回答說那不是停電沒有供電不是停電那是異常這台電現在在凹的一個態度那我這邊也特別提到我們看一下目前整個的一個發電去年的一個發電的一個情況"},{"start":335.345,"end":361.561,"text":"整個毛發電量的部分燃煤、燃油、燃氣三個部分占比高達83.1%您剛剛提到說幾個狀態說實話你提到了一個低碳發電這件低碳的電夠不夠這件事情的時候我覺得這是一個很好的一件因為之前的官員當中也很少提到低碳電的問題我想問一下諸位這裡面有哪些是低碳電"},{"start":363.919,"end":377.151,"text":"這裏面再生能源、抽蓄跟核能是低碳的就下面三個是低碳電嘛 對不對上面三個都是高碳電所以目前低碳電當中所佔的比重大概只有16%"},{"start":378.832,"end":402.311,"text":"但16.7%大概就這麼多所以台灣如果說低碳電要夠顯然是有很大的努力的一個空間要去做所以我覺得整個能源政策肯定其實是需要去稍微做一些調整你剛剛報告當中你也提到一個AI產業對台灣對全球有非常大的貢獻那事實上台灣目前整個AI產業當中有一個很重要部分就是算力其實是不夠的"},{"start":403.232,"end":430.763,"text":"台灣沒有一個真的國家級的一個算力中心目前真的有在國網中心他要去投入3億元台幣要去做提升算力的一個動作主委這樣夠不夠這個我們跟台電開過會他確定是足夠的我得到訊息很確定足夠你說怎麼樣足夠我剛才問說3億元要做一個算力中心夠不夠我現在不再問電的問題對我的瞭解算力中心3億元國網中心去做這樣夠嗎"},{"start":436.037,"end":447.069,"text":"三億元要去成立一個算力中心 超算中心不是電的問題 電的問題是下一個issue三億元要去做一個算力中心顯然是不夠的"},{"start":447.99,"end":469.856,"text":"主委這是一個很簡單的狀態我在問算力中心夠不夠不是電夠不夠電夠不夠是接下來的問題說實話台電跟我講說現在要成立算力中心他其實是非常擔心的所以你這邊也特別提到了就是AI它要用的GPU當中比原本傳統的GPU當中至少用電超過10倍所以這個部分"},{"start":471.427,"end":493.922,"text":"顯然是很緊繃的臺電這邊直接跟我講說臺灣成立算力中心的時候電是一個大的問題所以在北部基本上是不太可能去成立算力中心他直接講新竹以北都不可能除非有國家重大建設這臺電給我的答案那你現在講說臺電跟你講說電完全沒有問題我們要成立算力中心都沒有問題是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":497.721,"end":505.767,"text":"這個我可能再去多瞭解但是好那個對這個部分因為我本來在想說你算是"},{"start":507.288,"end":531.704,"text":"民進黨部長當中第一個很清楚去講到對於核能狀態用一個更開放的態度我們覺得這個狀態是肯定的那如果說前提是電要夠的時候台灣現在在發展很多的產業企業已經從數位轉型轉到AI轉型這個情況用電量會大增所以用電的部分肯定也是我們"},{"start":532.584,"end":548.711,"text":"關注的一個問題然後我在這邊另外再附帶兩件事都是你報告裡面有提到的就是我們的少子化問題極為嚴重2020年之後就已經出現生不如死的一個情況那這個情況越來越加劇那我們要怎麼樣去"},{"start":549.651,"end":559.203,"text":"改變這樣的一個情況我覺得移民政策很重要因為這個部分已經不是我們花錢就可以去解決因為在過去這幾年政府總共花了將近5000億4949億結果沒有什麼成效"},{"start":565.35,"end":565.51,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":581.374,"end":596.452,"text":"就是就業工作延長的一個狀態然後如何運用科技的力量取代人力然後如何去面對人口衰退的這個事情我想這些部分是重要的在砸錢要去增加人口顯然已經過去這幾年證明是沒有成效的"},{"start":596.772,"end":596.792,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}}}}