{"id":153326,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153326","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba08cc0c619dbf2c458c05f44c04a464dbbeba37a180c9b1cd73ba05b5d17d06145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:51:03 - 10:05:16","影片長度":"00:14:13","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":853,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-23"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:05:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:51:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":137,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早，因為今天非常多的委員，大家也關切我們在外交還有目前的處境上，其實到目前為止，我們的邦交國越來越少，這也是我們現在可能要面臨的一個困境。吳釗燮部長，現在的國安會秘書長，他卸任前有特別提到，我們有兩個邦交國有鬆動的現象，不曉得部長現在有沒有掌握這樣子的一個情況？這兩個邦交國會不會有影響？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：可以說是哪兩個嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：每一個邦交國，我們都很重視，我覺得我們要從固邦到榮邦，比如這一次我們以瓜地馬拉來講，它的總統派了外交部長來，外界有報導，他們總統又跟我們賴總統召開了視訊會議，就是要來澄清外面可能的一些錯誤訊息。他們外交部長到了日本之後，又發表了共同對臺灣的支持，結果我們現在看到瓜地馬拉的咖啡跟夏威夷豆，有7個貨櫃現在進不了中國，像這個時候我們就是把它當作自己的事情，就像之前的立陶宛一樣，我舉這個例子就是除了預警以外，我們怎麼樣用總合外交的力量，讓這些國家覺得跟臺灣的交往才是長久之道，反而一時的金錢外交可能沒辦法持續，宏都拉斯的白蝦就是一個例子。像這次貝里斯總理來，他們的白蝦質量非常好，我們臺灣的業者很想用，可是就要趕快幫忙處理檢疫的問題，把它當作自己的事情來幫它解決，這個時候我想臺灣跟貝里斯的關係，就是真正的價值外交所建立起來的一種夥伴。"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為時間的關係，我們可能用很多的方式，讓邦交國感受到我們才是可以長久交往的一個對象、一個邦交的國家。我們可能會有很多的方式，現在只是比較關切，因為過去實在減損了太多的邦交國，如果像我們剛剛講的這些手段工具都可以有成效的話，當然就不會失去這麼多。我們現在也持續擔心，面對這樣子外交的處境，我們當然也全力來支持，不過，希望大家隨時提高警覺，在這個部分，雖然可能現在還可以穩定下來，但接續下來跟邦交國互動的情誼，還是需要多做努力。那另外一個國家目前也還好嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得每個國家都要顧好，而且我打算就是除了他們來，我們也要去。"],["馬委員文君：希望就這個部分，我們現在只剩下12個，要怎麼好好的去兼顧，可能也是未來林部長的考驗跟要努力的方向，因為邦交國畢竟是唯一能夠在很多的國際場合上面，可以實質的替我們提案、發言等等，他們才有實質的效果，這些還是非常的重要。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["馬委員文君：在這裡也要請教部長，就現在來說，有很多的民眾也有這樣的感受，我們對對岸中共態度越來越強硬，可是我們對其他的國家，反而會有一些退讓，甚至讓大家覺得是怯懦。包括剛剛也有講到新南向國家，其實我們投注了非常多的資源，可是沒有得到很多實質的反饋，反而好像是我們付出的比較多。所以在這個部分，像有很多的免簽，像有很多我們的參訪，他們都會受制於很多政治的、其他的考量或國家利益的考量。其實它對我們並不是像我們對它這樣，我們口口聲聲說要對等嘛，所以我們是不是應該也要像其他國家一樣，以國家的利益還有未來的和平發展，各方面的面向去考量臺灣現在的處境，還有中華民國在對外的時候，其實才有更廣、更遠、更長，可能有更長治久安的一個方向可以遵循？"],["林部長佳龍：是，確實啦，外交也有它現實的一面，就是要互惠互利嘛！以泰國來講，它現在延長對臺灣的免簽，就是因為我們有觀宏專案，這就是一個逐漸在累積更多互信的基礎。至於對方強硬，有時候是因為中共的因素，因為在中國周邊國家都受到它很多的影響，這個時候我們也瞭解，可是比如我講數位新南向，臺灣除了是去紅供應鏈，我們的解決方案是將5G在臺灣實施一個創新應用服務的成果分享，就可以幫它解決國家的問題。","所以，我是覺得提升臺灣的價值，來創造這一些跟我們交往國家的價值，這個價值不是只有現實的利益，還有很多文化、觀光也都是，確實我們去釐清之後……"],["馬委員文君：部長，時間的關係，我們可能沒辦法……因為新南向政策已經推動很長的時間，包括我們一些高科技的技術產業還有農業技術，過去其實都一直朝這樣的方向在推動，我們去豐富了他們。可是我剛剛講的是我們得到的反饋很少，不是一直講說我們到底對他們做了什麼，反而是他們受制於中共的壓力之下，他們對我們不敢表現友好，因此我們並不算成功，這部分我們未來可能還有時間來談。","就整個外交的策略，我們希望還是有一些新的布局，可能有些還是要放下身段，當你考量國家利益為上的時候，有些事情其實是應該要透過談判或透過外交，尤其是外交。不管兩岸關係，雖然我們在兩岸關係還有陸委會，還有其他的單位，都必須透過類似外交手段，這樣子才可以讓大家都可以獲得其利。這個部分，我們也希望由外交部開始做起，因為以前大家都是張牙舞爪，其實這樣無助於臺灣整體的外交發展。","另外，我想要請教一下，在5月18號，我們有很多位委員上了太平島，在去太平島之前，有很多人包括執政黨的委員都一直公然指責我們這樣會破壞區域的安全穩定，會製造南海的紛爭等等。我想請問，我們這次去，有什麼國家抗議嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我那時候還沒擔任外交部長，所以我還不是很清楚當時各國的反應，不過這是國會、委員會的考察，我們政府就是全力來配合，也希望能夠發揮這次考察很正面的效果。"],["馬委員文君：我們這次去就是非常正面，因為第一，包括衛福部長，他在國外的時候，都說國家主權不容打折。所以像這樣去宣示自己的主權，我們居然不敢做，這樣當你在國內喊著口號，當你在做大外宣、大內宣說我們的主權不容打折的時候，我們的領土居然不敢去或者不讓我們去，或者不讓我們去，我覺得這是非常嚴重的扭曲，因為我們這次去其實有很好的效果，也沒有聽到任何國家抗議，如果有，媒體大概就會有其他的聲音出現。這次我們看到了防務，看到了我們的碼頭工程，因為在第一線的島嶼有我們的官士兵在上面，我碰到一個已經在那裡服役六年多的南投年輕官兵，在那裡要待六年多真的不容易，因為現在所有年輕人，不要說年輕人，所有人都在使用LINE等等各種網路傳播工具，在那個島上是不能使用的，它完全沒有這些通訊裝備，現在才慢慢有了。我們可以去看他們讓他們感到非常溫暖，在這之前是8年前，所以我們希望未來有更多機會，包括部長，有機會也跟我們一起上太平島看看，這也是宣示主權的具體方法，我們希望在國內不要動不動就拿政治，或者拿對岸來把它放大，或者是來扭曲、來打壓，甚至扣帽子。這是一個例子啦，我特別舉出來。","接下來要利用一點時間請教部長，在521，也就是520賴總統剛就職的這個時間點，媒體報導外交部國合會派駐我們邦交國聖露西亞技術團的替代役男涉嫌經營販毒，在過境美國的時候被美方司法部門逮捕，他光是過境而已就被逮捕，可見他已經被掌握一段時間，他並不是在美國發生這樣一個違法的事件。可是我們現在特別要提的是，因為他犯的都是重罪，最高甚至可以判到無期徒刑。在這樣的情況之下，他是外交替代役男，以計畫助理身分持公務護照，代表國家。他是代表國家的，他到我們友邦或友好國家去服勤，像這樣的情況，有沒有什麼樣的行政調查？因為他是代表我們國家，當初要去的時候，是怎麼對他做背景調查？而且他的專長還是網路科技方面，我們派他到邦交國聖露西亞的時候，他甚至還在警察學校擔任講師，現在會不會因為憑藉外交人員身分從事非法活動，而讓我們的邦交國也覺得我們這樣太離譜了？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，當然我們未來一定要針對這個例子好好地檢討，替代役男是內政部役政司在做審查……"],["馬委員文君：這是國合會……"],["林部長佳龍：但是出去了當然是代表我們國家。其實在這次的調查過程中，美國聯邦調查局跟我們政府是有一些交流合作，所以並不是狀況外，只是因為在偵辦中，我們也不能先有什麼動作，不過並不是報導之後我們才知道，是他在轉機過境的時候，我們跟美國已經取得雙方面的聯繫，我們也全力在配合他們偵辦。"],["馬委員文君：因為上次我們詢問的時候，外交部是說不知道喔！這是兩種儼然不同的狀況，因為91年3月，我們曾經簽署臺美刑事司法互助協定，就這個部分，因為美方在逮捕持有臺灣公務護照入境、代表國家的人，如果我們都在狀況外，這也表示我們的聯繫溝通有很大的問題，或者是他們並不信任我們。當然，部長剛剛有提到我們事先知情，既然事先知情，為什麼不是由我們來採取這樣的動作？這也很奇怪，是由美國在他過境……"],["林部長佳龍：這是美國的司法主權……"],["馬委員文君：沒有！那表示他過境的時候才知道……"],["林部長佳龍：我講的外交部並不就是我們外交部，其實是我們政府其他部會跟我們外交部的駐外單位啦！"],["馬委員文君：不是由外交部去抓啦！我的意思是說，如果你是事先知情，那你已經知道這個人有問題，因為他在我們的邦交國……"],["林部長佳龍：在過境的時候……"],["馬委員文君：他在邦交國是在警察學校任教喔！他過境的時候是美國先出手，反而不是我們掌握以後自己有所動作，這是兩個問題，第一，如果我們不知道，這是一個問題；如果我們知道了，而是在美國過境的時候被他們抓了，這是第二個問題。後面的調查報告再請外交部提供相關的書面資料給本委員會，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下面我們請林楚茵委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"153326","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153326","tool":"pyannote","id":"153326-pyannote"},"job_id":"oPWGmoLJq63QwF4r","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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11:54:42","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 11:55:25","msg":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153326 already downloaded"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:55:25","msg":"running whisperx with  --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）\n發言委員：馬文君'"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:55:46","msg":"merging result"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:55:46","msg":"status: done"}],"result":{"json":"{\"segments\": [{\"start\": 0.859, \"end\": 1.565, \"text\": \"謝主席 麻煩請部長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 0.859, \"end\": 1.04, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1.04, \"end\": 1.383, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 1.383, \"end\": 1.544, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1.544, \"end\": 1.565, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 16.056, \"end\": 33.288, \"text\": \"這一次因為今天非常多的委員大家也關切了非常多我們在外交還有目前的處境上面那其實到目前為止我們的幫交過越來越少這也是我們現在可能要面臨的一個困境\", 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838.69, \"end\": 838.71, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,859 --> 00:00:01,565\n謝 主 席 麻 煩 請 部 長\n\n2\n00:00:16,056 --> 00:00:33,288\n這 一 次 因 為 今 天 非 常 多 的 委 員 大 家 也 關 切 了 非 常 多 我 們 在 外 交 還 有 目 前 的 處 境 上 面 那 其 實 到 目 前 為 止 我 們 的 幫 交 過 越 來 越 少 這 也 是 我 們 現 在 可 能 要 面 臨 的 一 個 困 境\n\n3\n00:00:36,271 --> 00:00:59,968\n吳 釗 燮 部 長 現 在 的 國 安 會 的 秘 書 長 他 之 前 有 提 到 他 卸 任 前 他 有 特 別 提 到 我 們 有 兩 個 邦 交 國 有 鬆 動 的 現 象 不 曉 得 部 長 現 在 有 沒 有 掌 握 這 樣 子 的 一 個 情 況 這 兩 個 邦 交 國 會 不 會 有 影 響 各 位 報 告 可 以 說 是 哪 兩 個 嗎\n\n4\n00:01:01,277 --> 00:01:29,485\n每 一 個 邦 交 國 我 們 都 很 重 視 我 覺 得 我 們 知 道 從 故 邦 到 龍 邦 比 如 這 一 次 我 們 以 瓜 地 馬 拉 來 講 他 的 總 統 派 了 外 交 部 長 來 外 界 有 報 導 他 們 總 統 就 又 召 開 了 視 訊 會 議 跟 我 們 賴 總 統 就 是 要 來 澄 清 外 面 可 能 的 一 些 錯 誤 他 們 外 交 部 長 到 了 日 本 之 後\n\n5\n00:01:30,465 --> 00:01:56,914\n又 發 表 了 共 同 對 臺 灣 的 支 持 結 果 我 們 現 在 看 到 瓜 地 馬 拉 的 這 個 咖 啡 跟 夏 威 夷 豆 有 7 個 貨 櫃 就 是 現 在 進 不 了 中 國 像 這 個 時 候 我 們 就 是 把 它 當 作 自 己 的 事 情 就 像 之 前 的 立 陶 宛 一 樣 我 是 舉 這 個 例 子 就 是 說 除 了 預 警 以 外 我 們 怎 麼 樣 用 總 和 外 交 的 力 量 來 讓 這 些 國 家 覺 得 跟 臺 灣 的 交 往\n\n6\n00:01:57,833 --> 00:01:57,873\n副 部 長\n\n7\n00:02:27,976 --> 00:02:46,351\n因 為 時 間 的 關 係 就 是 說 我 們 可 能 用 很 多 的 方 式 或 者 可 以 讓 我 們 的 邦 交 國 感 受 到 我 們 可 能 才 是 可 以 長 久 交 往 的 一 個 對 象 一 個 邦 交 的 國 家 我 們 可 能 會 有 很 多 的 方 式 我 們 現 在 只 是 比 較 關 切 的 因 為 過 去 實 在 減 損 了 太 多 的 邦 交 國\n\n8\n00:02:51,955 --> 00:02:52,255\n： 馬 文 君\n\n9\n00:03:23,696 --> 00:03:45,168\n我 覺 得 每 個 國 家 都 要 顧 好 而 且 我 打 算 除 了 他 們 來 我 們 也 要 去 我 們 希 望 大 概 就 這 個 部 分 我 們 大 概 現 在 只 剩 下 1 2 個 要 怎 麼 好 好 的 去 兼 顧 那 可 能 也 是 未 來 林 部 長 的 考 驗 跟 要 努 力 的 方 向 因 為 我 們 邦 交 國 畢 竟 是\n\n10\n00:03:46,169 --> 00:03:46,389\n： 馬 文 君\n\n11\n00:04:03,647 --> 00:04:29,653\n一 般 來 說 有 很 多 的 民 眾 也 有 這 樣 的 感 受 我 們 對 對 岸 就 是 中 共 我 們 的 態 度 越 來 越 強 硬 可 是 我 們 對 很 多 其 他 的 國 家 我 們 反 而 會 有 一 些 退 讓 或 怯 懦 甚 至 讓 大 家 覺 得 是 怯 懦 因 為 包 括 剛 剛 也 有 講 到 新 南 向 國 家 新 南 向 其 實 我 們 投 注 了 非 常 多 的 資 源 可 是 我 們\n\n12\n00:04:30,393 --> 00:04:51,312\n在 很 多 實 質 的 反 饋 上 面 其 實 是 沒 有 得 到 的 反 而 好 像 是 我 們 付 出 的 比 較 多 所 以 在 這 個 部 分 比 如 說 像 有 很 多 的 免 簽 像 有 很 多 我 們 的 參 訪 其 實 他 們 都 會 受 制 於 很 多 政 治 的 或 其 他 的 考 量 或 國 家 利 益 的 考 量 其 實 他 對 我 們 並 不 是 像 我 們 這 樣 因 為 我 們 口 口 聲 聲 說 要 對 等 所 以 其 實\n\n13\n00:04:57,697 --> 00:05:21,297\n我 們 應 該 是 不 是 也 要 像 其 他 國 家 一 樣 以 國 家 的 利 益 還 有 我 們 未 來 的 和 平 發 展 各 方 面 的 面 向 去 考 量 這 樣 我 們 整 個 台 灣 現 在 的 處 境 還 有 中 華 民 國 在 對 外 的 時 候 其 實 他 才 有 更 廣 更 遠 還 有 更 長 還 有 可 能 更 長 治 久 安 的 這 樣 的 一 個 方 向 可 以 遵 循\n\n14\n00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:39,969\n是 , 確 實 啦 , 外 交 也 有 它 現 實 的 一 面 就 是 要 互 惠 互 利 嘛 , 那 比 如 說 以 泰 國 來 講 , 它 現 在 延 長 對 台 灣 的 免 簽 , 就 是 因 為 我 們 也 是 有 這 個 官 紅 專 案 嘛 , 那 這 個 就 是 一 個 逐 漸 在 累 積 啊 , 更 多 的 一 個 互 信 的 基 礎 。\n\n15\n00:05:41,030 --> 00:05:56,695\n那 至 於 說 對 方 強 硬 有 時 候 是 因 為 中 共 的 因 素 因 為 在 中 國 周 邊 國 家 都 受 到 他 很 多 的 影 響 這 個 時 候 我 們 也 了 解 可 是 比 如 說 我 講 數 位 新 南 向 台 灣 除 了 是 去 紅 供 應 鏈 我 們 的 解 決 方 案\n\n16\n00:05:57,495 --> 00:06:11,651\n我 們 5 G 在 台 灣 實 施 的 一 個 創 新 的 這 種 應 用 的 服 務 的 成 果 就 可 以 幫 他 解 決 他 國 家 的 問 題 所 以 我 是 覺 得 提 升 台 灣 的 價 值 來 創 造 這 一 些 跟 我 們 交 往 國 家 他 的 價 值\n\n17\n00:06:13,052 --> 00:06:22,638\n這 個 價 值 不 是 只 有 現 實 的 利 益 還 有 很 多 文 化 還 有 觀 光 也 都 是 所 以 確 實 我 們 去 理 性 之 後 時 間 的 關 係 我 們 可 能 沒 辦 法 大 概 就 這 個 部 分 因 為 新 南 向 的 這 個 政 策 已 經 推 動 很 長 的 時 間 包 括 我 們 保 護 我 們 的 一 些 高 科 技 的 技 術 產 業 還 包 括 我 們 的 農 業 技 術 過 去 其 實 都 一 直 朝 這 樣 的 方 向 在 推 動 我 們 去 豐 富 了 他 們\n\n18\n00:06:41,348 --> 00:07:04,000\n可 是 我 們 我 剛 剛 講 的 是 我 們 的 反 饋 很 少 我 們 不 是 一 直 講 說 我 們 到 底 對 他 們 做 了 什 麼 他 們 有 什 麼 對 我 們 反 而 他 們 在 受 制 於 中 共 的 壓 力 之 下 他 們 對 我 們 不 敢 表 現 友 好 這 個 這 個 我 們 並 不 算 成 功 這 部 分 我 們 未 來 可 能 還 有 時 間 來 談 那 就 整 個 外 交 的 策 略 我 們 希 望 說 還 是 有 一 些 新 的 佈 局\n\n19\n00:07:05,180 --> 00:07:29,936\n還 有 可 能 還 有 些 還 是 要 放 下 身 段 當 你 考 量 國 家 利 益 為 上 的 時 候 有 些 事 情 其 實 是 應 該 要 透 過 談 判 或 透 過 外 交 尤 其 是 外 交 那 不 管 兩 岸 關 係 雖 然 我 們 在 兩 岸 關 係 還 有 陸 委 會 還 有 什 麼 其 他 的 單 位 可 是 都 必 須 透 過 類 似 外 交 手 段 這 樣 子 才 可 以 讓 大 家\n\n20\n00:07:30,416 --> 00:07:32,217\n在 去 太 平 島 之 前 有 很 多 包 括 執 政 黨 的 委 員 甚 至 都 一 直 公 然 指 責\n\n21\n00:07:58,610 --> 00:07:59,030\n我 們 這 次 去 有 什 麼 國 家 抗 議 嗎 ?\n\n22\n00:08:12,070 --> 00:08:28,885\n我 那 時 候 還 沒 擔 任 外 交 部 部 長 所 以 我 還 不 是 很 清 楚 當 時 各 國 的 反 應 不 過 我 想 這 是 國 會 委 員 會 的 考 察 那 我 們 政 府 就 是 全 力 來 配 合 那 也 希 望 能 夠 發 揮 這 一 次 的 考 察 的 很 正 面 的 效 果\n\n23\n00:08:28,985 --> 00:08:52,222\n我 們 這 次 去 就 是 非 常 正 面 因 為 第 一 包 括 衛 福 部 長 他 在 國 外 的 時 候 都 說 國 家 主 權 不 容 打 折 所 以 像 我 們 這 樣 去 宣 示 自 己 的 主 權 我 們 居 然 不 敢 做 這 樣 當 你 在 國 內 喊 著 口 號 當 你 在 做 大 外 宣 大 內 宣 說 我 們 的 主 權 不 容 打 折 的 時 候 我 們 的 領 土 居 然\n\n24\n00:08:52,662 --> 00:08:59,527\n不 敢 去 或 者 不 讓 我 們 去 我 覺 得 這 是 非 常 嚴 重 的 扭 曲 因 為 我 們 這 一 次 去 其 實 有 很 好 的 一 個 效 果 也 沒 有 聽 到 任 何 國 家 的 抗 議 如 果 有 其 實 大 概 會 有 媒 體 會 有 其 他 的 聲 音 就 會 出 現 我 們 去 這 一 次 看 到 了 防 務 看 到 了 我 們 的 碼 頭 工 程 因 為 在 第 一 線 的 這 樣 的 一 個 島 嶼 上 面 有 我 們 的 官 士 兵 在 上 面\n\n25\n00:09:18,982 --> 00:09:38,430\n我 碰 到 一 個 在 那 裡 已 經 服 役 6 年 多 的 我 們 南 投 的 一 個 年 輕 的 官 兵 他 在 那 裡 6 年 多 在 那 裡 要 待 6 年 多 真 的 不 容 易 因 為 在 過 去 我 們 現 在 所 有 年 輕 人 不 要 說 年 輕 人 現 在 所 有 人 大 家 使 用 L I N E 使 用 很 多 的 這 些 網 路 還 有 這 些 可 以 運 用 的\n\n26\n00:09:42,652 --> 00:10:00,329\n這 些 傳 播 其 實 在 那 裡 在 那 個 島 上 是 不 能 使 用 他 完 全 沒 有 通 訊 的 這 些 裝 備 現 在 目 前 慢 慢 有 了 所 以 我 們 可 以 去 看 他 們 其 實 他 們 感 受 到 非 常 的 溫 暖 在 這 之 前 是 八 年 前 了\n\n27\n00:10:01,090 --> 00:10:05,273\n所 以 我 們 希 望 未 來 更 多 的 機 會 包 括 部 長 有 機 會 跟 我 們 一 起 上 太 平 島 去 看 看 然 後 這 個 也 是 宣 示 我 們 主 權 這 是 比 較 具 體 的 方 法 我 們 希 望 在 國 內 不 要 動 不 動 就 拿 政 治 或 者 拿 對 岸 來 把 它 放 大 或 者 來 扭 曲 或 者 來 打 壓 甚 至 扣 帽 子 我 想 這 是 一 個 例 子 啦 我 特 別 舉 出 來\n\n28\n00:10:24,884 --> 00:10:53,325\n那 我 還 要 利 用 一 點 時 間 我 想 要 請 教 部 長 因 為 在 5 2 1 的 時 候 也 就 是 5 2 0 賴 總 統 剛 就 職 的 這 個 時 間 點 在 媒 體 的 報 導 說 外 交 部 國 和 會 派 駐 聖 路 西 亞 也 是 我 們 邦 交 國 技 術 團 的 這 個 替 代 義 男 他 涉 嫌 經 營 販 毒 在 過 境 美 國 的 時 候 就 被 美 方 的 司 法 部 門 逮 捕\n\n29\n00:10:54,158 --> 00:11:09,561\n可 見 他 光 是 過 境 而 已 他 就 被 逮 捕 所 以 他 已 經 被 掌 握 了 一 段 時 間 他 不 是 在 美 國 發 生 這 樣 子 的 一 個 違 法 的 事 件 所 以 可 是 我 們 現 在 特 別 要 提 的 因 為 他 犯 的 都 是 重 罪 甚 至 最 高 可 以 判 到 無 期 徒 刑\n\n30\n00:11:10,382 --> 00:11:33,480\n那 在 這 樣 的 一 個 情 況 之 下 他 外 交 替 代 藝 男 他 是 以 計 劃 助 理 身 份 持 公 務 的 護 照 代 表 國 家 他 是 代 表 國 家 的 他 到 我 們 的 友 邦 或 友 好 國 家 去 扶 勤 那 像 這 樣 的 情 況 有 沒 有 什 麼 樣 的 行 政 調 查 因 為 這 是 代 表 我 們 國 家 你 當 初 要 去 的 時 候\n\n31\n00:11:34,201 --> 00:11:54,895\n是 怎 麼 樣 做 他 的 背 景 調 查 而 且 他 還 是 他 的 專 長 是 一 些 網 路 啊 科 技 方 面 的 這 些 專 長 我 們 派 到 聖 路 西 亞 邦 交 國 的 時 候 他 甚 至 還 在 警 察 學 校 擔 任 講 師 那 現 在 會 不 會 因 為 憑 藉 外 交 人 員 身 份 從 事 非 法 活 動 會 讓 我 們 的 邦 交 國 也 覺 得 我 們 這 樣 是 太 離 譜 了\n\n32\n00:11:59,778 --> 00:12:20,448\n是 跟 委 員 說 明 當 然 我 們 未 來 這 個 例 子 一 定 要 做 好 好 的 檢 討 當 然 替 代 易 蘭 是 內 政 部 易 政 司 他 在 做 這 個 審 查 但 是 當 然 出 去 了 就 代 表 我 們 國 家 那 這 一 次 其 實 是 美 國 聯 邦 調 查 局 跟 我 們 政 府 其 實 在\n\n33\n00:12:22,436 --> 00:12:45,573\n在 這 個 調 查 過 程 是 有 一 些 交 流 合 作 所 以 並 不 是 狀 況 外 只 是 因 為 在 偵 辦 中 我 們 也 不 能 夠 先 有 什 麼 動 作 不 過 並 不 是 說 報 導 之 後 我 們 才 知 道 是 在 那 個 他 在 轉 機 過 境 的 時 候 其 實 我 們 跟 美 國 已 經 有 取 得 這 個 雙 方 面 的 一 個 聯 繫 跟 我 們 也 全 力 在 配 合 他 們 偵 辦\n\n34\n00:12:47,967 --> 00:13:05,586\n因 為 我 們 在 詢 問 的 時 候 那 時 候 外 交 部 是 說 不 知 道 的 這 個 是 兩 種 也 然 不 同 的 一 個 狀 況 因 為 我 們 在 民 國 在 9 1 年 3 月 的 時 候 曾 經 簽 署 臺 美 形 式 司 法 互 助 協 定 就 這 個 部 分 因 為 美 方 在 逮 捕 持 有 臺 灣 公 務 護 照 入 境 的 這 樣 子 的 一 個\n\n35\n00:13:07,028 --> 00:13:07,488\n我 講 的 外 交 部 不 是 說\n\n36\n00:13:33,568 --> 00:13:56,168\n就 是 我 們 外 交 部 其 實 我 們 政 府 的 其 他 的 部 跟 我 們 外 交 部 在 駐 外 的 單 位 不 是 有 外 交 部 去 抓 啦 我 意 思 是 說 如 果 你 是 事 先 知 情 那 你 已 經 知 道 這 個 人 有 問 題 因 為 他 在 我 們 的 邦 交 國 他 在 邦 交 國 他 是 教 警 察 學 校 喔 他 過 境 的 時 候 是 美 國 先 出 手 他 反 而 不 是 我 們 自 己 掌 握 以 後 我 們 自 己 有 所 動 作 這 是 兩 個 問 題\n\n37\n00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:58,710\n主 席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n859\t1565\t謝主席 麻煩請部長\n16056\t33288\t這一次因為今天非常多的委員大家也關切了非常多我們在外交還有目前的處境上面那其實到目前為止我們的幫交過越來越少這也是我們現在可能要面臨的一個困境\n36271\t59968\t吳釗燮部長現在的國安會的秘書長他之前有提到他卸任前他有特別提到我們有兩個邦交國有鬆動的現象不曉得部長現在有沒有掌握這樣子的一個情況這兩個邦交國會不會有影響各位報告可以說是哪兩個嗎\n61277\t89485\t每一個邦交國我們都很重視我覺得我們知道從故邦到龍邦比如這一次我們以瓜地馬拉來講他的總統派了外交部長來外界有報導他們總統就又召開了視訊會議跟我們賴總統就是要來澄清外面可能的一些錯誤他們外交部長到了日本之後\n90465\t116914\t又發表了共同對臺灣的支持結果我們現在看到瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡跟夏威夷豆有7個貨櫃就是現在進不了中國像這個時候我們就是把它當作自己的事情就像之前的立陶宛一樣我是舉這個例子就是說除了預警以外我們怎麼樣用總和外交的力量來讓這些國家覺得跟臺灣的交往\n117833\t117873\t副部長\n147976\t166351\t因為時間的關係就是說我們可能用很多的方式或者可以讓我們的邦交國感受到我們可能才是可以長久交往的一個對象一個邦交的國家我們可能會有很多的方式我們現在只是比較關切的因為過去實在減損了太多的邦交國\n171955\t172255\t：馬文君\n203696\t225168\t我覺得每個國家都要顧好而且我打算除了他們來我們也要去我們希望大概就這個部分我們大概現在只剩下12個要怎麼好好的去兼顧那可能也是未來林部長的考驗跟要努力的方向因為我們邦交國畢竟是\n226169\t226389\t：馬文君\n243647\t269653\t一般來說有很多的民眾也有這樣的感受我們對對岸就是中共我們的態度越來越強硬可是我們對很多其他的國家我們反而會有一些退讓或怯懦甚至讓大家覺得是怯懦因為包括剛剛也有講到新南向國家新南向其實我們投注了非常多的資源可是我們\n270393\t291312\t在很多實質的反饋上面其實是沒有得到的反而好像是我們付出的比較多所以在這個部分比如說像有很多的免簽像有很多我們的參訪其實他們都會受制於很多政治的或其他的考量或國家利益的考量其實他對我們並不是像我們這樣因為我們口口聲聲說要對等所以其實\n297697\t321297\t我們應該是不是也要像其他國家一樣以國家的利益還有我們未來的和平發展各方面的面向去考量這樣我們整個台灣現在的處境還有中華民國在對外的時候其實他才有更廣更遠還有更長還有可能更長治久安的這樣的一個方向可以遵循\n322760\t339969\t是,確實啦,外交也有它現實的一面就是要互惠互利嘛,那比如說以泰國來講,它現在延長對台灣的免簽,就是因為我們也是有這個官紅專案嘛,那這個就是一個逐漸在累積啊,更多的一個互信的基礎。\n341030\t356695\t那至於說對方強硬有時候是因為中共的因素因為在中國周邊國家都受到他很多的影響這個時候我們也了解可是比如說我講數位新南向台灣除了是去紅供應鏈我們的解決方案\n357495\t371651\t我們5G在台灣實施的一個創新的這種應用的服務的成果就可以幫他解決他國家的問題所以我是覺得提升台灣的價值來創造這一些跟我們交往國家他的價值\n373052\t382638\t這個價值不是只有現實的利益還有很多文化還有觀光也都是所以確實我們去理性之後時間的關係我們可能沒辦法大概就這個部分因為新南向的這個政策已經推動很長的時間包括我們保護我們的一些高科技的技術產業還包括我們的農業技術過去其實都一直朝這樣的方向在推動我們去豐富了他們\n401348\t424000\t可是我們我剛剛講的是我們的反饋很少我們不是一直講說我們到底對他們做了什麼他們有什麼對我們反而他們在受制於中共的壓力之下他們對我們不敢表現友好這個這個我們並不算成功這部分我們未來可能還有時間來談那就整個外交的策略我們希望說還是有一些新的佈局\n425180\t449936\t還有可能還有些還是要放下身段當你考量國家利益為上的時候有些事情其實是應該要透過談判或透過外交尤其是外交那不管兩岸關係雖然我們在兩岸關係還有陸委會還有什麼其他的單位可是都必須透過類似外交手段這樣子才可以讓大家\n450416\t452217\t在去太平島之前有很多包括執政黨的委員甚至都一直公然指責\n478610\t479030\t我們這次去有什麼國家抗議嗎?\n492070\t508885\t我那時候還沒擔任外交部部長所以我還不是很清楚當時各國的反應不過我想這是國會委員會的考察那我們政府就是全力來配合那也希望能夠發揮這一次的考察的很正面的效果\n508985\t532222\t我們這次去就是非常正面因為第一包括衛福部長他在國外的時候都說國家主權不容打折所以像我們這樣去宣示自己的主權我們居然不敢做這樣當你在國內喊著口號當你在做大外宣大內宣說我們的主權不容打折的時候我們的領土居然\n532662\t539527\t不敢去或者不讓我們去我覺得這是非常嚴重的扭曲因為我們這一次去其實有很好的一個效果也沒有聽到任何國家的抗議如果有其實大概會有媒體會有其他的聲音就會出現我們去這一次看到了防務看到了我們的碼頭工程因為在第一線的這樣的一個島嶼上面有我們的官士兵在上面\n558982\t578430\t我碰到一個在那裡已經服役6年多的我們南投的一個年輕的官兵他在那裡6年多在那裡要待6年多真的不容易因為在過去我們現在所有年輕人不要說年輕人現在所有人大家使用LINE使用很多的這些網路還有這些可以運用的\n582652\t600329\t這些傳播其實在那裡在那個島上是不能使用他完全沒有通訊的這些裝備現在目前慢慢有了所以我們可以去看他們其實他們感受到非常的溫暖在這之前是八年前了\n601090\t605273\t所以我們希望未來更多的機會包括部長有機會跟我們一起上太平島去看看然後這個也是宣示我們主權這是比較具體的方法我們希望在國內不要動不動就拿政治或者拿對岸來把它放大或者來扭曲或者來打壓甚至扣帽子我想這是一個例子啦我特別舉出來\n624884\t653325\t那我還要利用一點時間我想要請教部長因為在521的時候也就是520賴總統剛就職的這個時間點在媒體的報導說外交部國和會派駐聖路西亞也是我們邦交國技術團的這個替代義男他涉嫌經營販毒在過境美國的時候就被美方的司法部門逮捕\n654158\t669561\t可見他光是過境而已他就被逮捕所以他已經被掌握了一段時間他不是在美國發生這樣子的一個違法的事件所以可是我們現在特別要提的因為他犯的都是重罪甚至最高可以判到無期徒刑\n670382\t693480\t那在這樣的一個情況之下他外交替代藝男他是以計劃助理身份持公務的護照代表國家他是代表國家的他到我們的友邦或友好國家去扶勤那像這樣的情況有沒有什麼樣的行政調查因為這是代表我們國家你當初要去的時候\n694201\t714895\t是怎麼樣做他的背景調查而且他還是他的專長是一些網路啊科技方面的這些專長我們派到聖路西亞邦交國的時候他甚至還在警察學校擔任講師那現在會不會因為憑藉外交人員身份從事非法活動會讓我們的邦交國也覺得我們這樣是太離譜了\n719778\t740448\t是跟委員說明當然我們未來這個例子一定要做好好的檢討當然替代易蘭是內政部易政司他在做這個審查但是當然出去了就代表我們國家那這一次其實是美國聯邦調查局跟我們政府其實在\n742436\t765573\t在這個調查過程是有一些交流合作所以並不是狀況外只是因為在偵辦中我們也不能夠先有什麼動作不過並不是說報導之後我們才知道是在那個他在轉機過境的時候其實我們跟美國已經有取得這個雙方面的一個聯繫跟我們也全力在配合他們偵辦\n767967\t785586\t因為我們在詢問的時候那時候外交部是說不知道的這個是兩種也然不同的一個狀況因為我們在民國在91年3月的時候曾經簽署臺美形式司法互助協定就這個部分因為美方在逮捕持有臺灣公務護照入境的這樣子的一個\n787028\t787488\t我講的外交部不是說\n813568\t836168\t就是我們外交部其實我們政府的其他的部跟我們外交部在駐外的單位不是有外交部去抓啦我意思是說如果你是事先知情那你已經知道這個人有問題因為他在我們的邦交國他在邦交國他是教警察學校喔他過境的時候是美國先出手他反而不是我們自己掌握以後我們自己有所動作這是兩個問題\n838550\t838710\t主席\n","txt":"謝主席 麻煩請部長\n這一次因為今天非常多的委員大家也關切了非常多我們在外交還有目前的處境上面那其實到目前為止我們的幫交過越來越少這也是我們現在可能要面臨的一個困境\n吳釗燮部長現在的國安會的秘書長他之前有提到他卸任前他有特別提到我們有兩個邦交國有鬆動的現象不曉得部長現在有沒有掌握這樣子的一個情況這兩個邦交國會不會有影響各位報告可以說是哪兩個嗎\n每一個邦交國我們都很重視我覺得我們知道從故邦到龍邦比如這一次我們以瓜地馬拉來講他的總統派了外交部長來外界有報導他們總統就又召開了視訊會議跟我們賴總統就是要來澄清外面可能的一些錯誤他們外交部長到了日本之後\n又發表了共同對臺灣的支持結果我們現在看到瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡跟夏威夷豆有7個貨櫃就是現在進不了中國像這個時候我們就是把它當作自己的事情就像之前的立陶宛一樣我是舉這個例子就是說除了預警以外我們怎麼樣用總和外交的力量來讓這些國家覺得跟臺灣的交往\n副部長\n因為時間的關係就是說我們可能用很多的方式或者可以讓我們的邦交國感受到我們可能才是可以長久交往的一個對象一個邦交的國家我們可能會有很多的方式我們現在只是比較關切的因為過去實在減損了太多的邦交國\n：馬文君\n我覺得每個國家都要顧好而且我打算除了他們來我們也要去我們希望大概就這個部分我們大概現在只剩下12個要怎麼好好的去兼顧那可能也是未來林部長的考驗跟要努力的方向因為我們邦交國畢竟是\n：馬文君\n一般來說有很多的民眾也有這樣的感受我們對對岸就是中共我們的態度越來越強硬可是我們對很多其他的國家我們反而會有一些退讓或怯懦甚至讓大家覺得是怯懦因為包括剛剛也有講到新南向國家新南向其實我們投注了非常多的資源可是我們\n在很多實質的反饋上面其實是沒有得到的反而好像是我們付出的比較多所以在這個部分比如說像有很多的免簽像有很多我們的參訪其實他們都會受制於很多政治的或其他的考量或國家利益的考量其實他對我們並不是像我們這樣因為我們口口聲聲說要對等所以其實\n我們應該是不是也要像其他國家一樣以國家的利益還有我們未來的和平發展各方面的面向去考量這樣我們整個台灣現在的處境還有中華民國在對外的時候其實他才有更廣更遠還有更長還有可能更長治久安的這樣的一個方向可以遵循\n是,確實啦,外交也有它現實的一面就是要互惠互利嘛,那比如說以泰國來講,它現在延長對台灣的免簽,就是因為我們也是有這個官紅專案嘛,那這個就是一個逐漸在累積啊,更多的一個互信的基礎。\n那至於說對方強硬有時候是因為中共的因素因為在中國周邊國家都受到他很多的影響這個時候我們也了解可是比如說我講數位新南向台灣除了是去紅供應鏈我們的解決方案\n我們5G在台灣實施的一個創新的這種應用的服務的成果就可以幫他解決他國家的問題所以我是覺得提升台灣的價值來創造這一些跟我們交往國家他的價值\n這個價值不是只有現實的利益還有很多文化還有觀光也都是所以確實我們去理性之後時間的關係我們可能沒辦法大概就這個部分因為新南向的這個政策已經推動很長的時間包括我們保護我們的一些高科技的技術產業還包括我們的農業技術過去其實都一直朝這樣的方向在推動我們去豐富了他們\n可是我們我剛剛講的是我們的反饋很少我們不是一直講說我們到底對他們做了什麼他們有什麼對我們反而他們在受制於中共的壓力之下他們對我們不敢表現友好這個這個我們並不算成功這部分我們未來可能還有時間來談那就整個外交的策略我們希望說還是有一些新的佈局\n還有可能還有些還是要放下身段當你考量國家利益為上的時候有些事情其實是應該要透過談判或透過外交尤其是外交那不管兩岸關係雖然我們在兩岸關係還有陸委會還有什麼其他的單位可是都必須透過類似外交手段這樣子才可以讓大家\n在去太平島之前有很多包括執政黨的委員甚至都一直公然指責\n我們這次去有什麼國家抗議嗎?\n我那時候還沒擔任外交部部長所以我還不是很清楚當時各國的反應不過我想這是國會委員會的考察那我們政府就是全力來配合那也希望能夠發揮這一次的考察的很正面的效果\n我們這次去就是非常正面因為第一包括衛福部長他在國外的時候都說國家主權不容打折所以像我們這樣去宣示自己的主權我們居然不敢做這樣當你在國內喊著口號當你在做大外宣大內宣說我們的主權不容打折的時候我們的領土居然\n不敢去或者不讓我們去我覺得這是非常嚴重的扭曲因為我們這一次去其實有很好的一個效果也沒有聽到任何國家的抗議如果有其實大概會有媒體會有其他的聲音就會出現我們去這一次看到了防務看到了我們的碼頭工程因為在第一線的這樣的一個島嶼上面有我們的官士兵在上面\n我碰到一個在那裡已經服役6年多的我們南投的一個年輕的官兵他在那裡6年多在那裡要待6年多真的不容易因為在過去我們現在所有年輕人不要說年輕人現在所有人大家使用LINE使用很多的這些網路還有這些可以運用的\n這些傳播其實在那裡在那個島上是不能使用他完全沒有通訊的這些裝備現在目前慢慢有了所以我們可以去看他們其實他們感受到非常的溫暖在這之前是八年前了\n所以我們希望未來更多的機會包括部長有機會跟我們一起上太平島去看看然後這個也是宣示我們主權這是比較具體的方法我們希望在國內不要動不動就拿政治或者拿對岸來把它放大或者來扭曲或者來打壓甚至扣帽子我想這是一個例子啦我特別舉出來\n那我還要利用一點時間我想要請教部長因為在521的時候也就是520賴總統剛就職的這個時間點在媒體的報導說外交部國和會派駐聖路西亞也是我們邦交國技術團的這個替代義男他涉嫌經營販毒在過境美國的時候就被美方的司法部門逮捕\n可見他光是過境而已他就被逮捕所以他已經被掌握了一段時間他不是在美國發生這樣子的一個違法的事件所以可是我們現在特別要提的因為他犯的都是重罪甚至最高可以判到無期徒刑\n那在這樣的一個情況之下他外交替代藝男他是以計劃助理身份持公務的護照代表國家他是代表國家的他到我們的友邦或友好國家去扶勤那像這樣的情況有沒有什麼樣的行政調查因為這是代表我們國家你當初要去的時候\n是怎麼樣做他的背景調查而且他還是他的專長是一些網路啊科技方面的這些專長我們派到聖路西亞邦交國的時候他甚至還在警察學校擔任講師那現在會不會因為憑藉外交人員身份從事非法活動會讓我們的邦交國也覺得我們這樣是太離譜了\n是跟委員說明當然我們未來這個例子一定要做好好的檢討當然替代易蘭是內政部易政司他在做這個審查但是當然出去了就代表我們國家那這一次其實是美國聯邦調查局跟我們政府其實在\n在這個調查過程是有一些交流合作所以並不是狀況外只是因為在偵辦中我們也不能夠先有什麼動作不過並不是說報導之後我們才知道是在那個他在轉機過境的時候其實我們跟美國已經有取得這個雙方面的一個聯繫跟我們也全力在配合他們偵辦\n因為我們在詢問的時候那時候外交部是說不知道的這個是兩種也然不同的一個狀況因為我們在民國在91年3月的時候曾經簽署臺美形式司法互助協定就這個部分因為美方在逮捕持有臺灣公務護照入境的這樣子的一個\n我講的外交部不是說\n就是我們外交部其實我們政府的其他的部跟我們外交部在駐外的單位不是有外交部去抓啦我意思是說如果你是事先知情那你已經知道這個人有問題因為他在我們的邦交國他在邦交國他是教警察學校喔他過境的時候是美國先出手他反而不是我們自己掌握以後我們自己有所動作這是兩個問題\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.859 --> 00:01.565\n謝 主 席 麻 煩 請 部 長\n\n00:16.056 --> 00:33.288\n這 一 次 因 為 今 天 非 常 多 的 委 員 大 家 也 關 切 了 非 常 多 我 們 在 外 交 還 有 目 前 的 處 境 上 面 那 其 實 到 目 前 為 止 我 們 的 幫 交 過 越 來 越 少 這 也 是 我 們 現 在 可 能 要 面 臨 的 一 個 困 境\n\n00:36.271 --> 00:59.968\n吳 釗 燮 部 長 現 在 的 國 安 會 的 秘 書 長 他 之 前 有 提 到 他 卸 任 前 他 有 特 別 提 到 我 們 有 兩 個 邦 交 國 有 鬆 動 的 現 象 不 曉 得 部 長 現 在 有 沒 有 掌 握 這 樣 子 的 一 個 情 況 這 兩 個 邦 交 國 會 不 會 有 影 響 各 位 報 告 可 以 說 是 哪 兩 個 嗎\n\n01:01.277 --> 01:29.485\n每 一 個 邦 交 國 我 們 都 很 重 視 我 覺 得 我 們 知 道 從 故 邦 到 龍 邦 比 如 這 一 次 我 們 以 瓜 地 馬 拉 來 講 他 的 總 統 派 了 外 交 部 長 來 外 界 有 報 導 他 們 總 統 就 又 召 開 了 視 訊 會 議 跟 我 們 賴 總 統 就 是 要 來 澄 清 外 面 可 能 的 一 些 錯 誤 他 們 外 交 部 長 到 了 日 本 之 後\n\n01:30.465 --> 01:56.914\n又 發 表 了 共 同 對 臺 灣 的 支 持 結 果 我 們 現 在 看 到 瓜 地 馬 拉 的 這 個 咖 啡 跟 夏 威 夷 豆 有 7 個 貨 櫃 就 是 現 在 進 不 了 中 國 像 這 個 時 候 我 們 就 是 把 它 當 作 自 己 的 事 情 就 像 之 前 的 立 陶 宛 一 樣 我 是 舉 這 個 例 子 就 是 說 除 了 預 警 以 外 我 們 怎 麼 樣 用 總 和 外 交 的 力 量 來 讓 這 些 國 家 覺 得 跟 臺 灣 的 交 往\n\n01:57.833 --> 01:57.873\n副 部 長\n\n02:27.976 --> 02:46.351\n因 為 時 間 的 關 係 就 是 說 我 們 可 能 用 很 多 的 方 式 或 者 可 以 讓 我 們 的 邦 交 國 感 受 到 我 們 可 能 才 是 可 以 長 久 交 往 的 一 個 對 象 一 個 邦 交 的 國 家 我 們 可 能 會 有 很 多 的 方 式 我 們 現 在 只 是 比 較 關 切 的 因 為 過 去 實 在 減 損 了 太 多 的 邦 交 國\n\n02:51.955 --> 02:52.255\n： 馬 文 君\n\n03:23.696 --> 03:45.168\n我 覺 得 每 個 國 家 都 要 顧 好 而 且 我 打 算 除 了 他 們 來 我 們 也 要 去 我 們 希 望 大 概 就 這 個 部 分 我 們 大 概 現 在 只 剩 下 1 2 個 要 怎 麼 好 好 的 去 兼 顧 那 可 能 也 是 未 來 林 部 長 的 考 驗 跟 要 努 力 的 方 向 因 為 我 們 邦 交 國 畢 竟 是\n\n03:46.169 --> 03:46.389\n： 馬 文 君\n\n04:03.647 --> 04:29.653\n一 般 來 說 有 很 多 的 民 眾 也 有 這 樣 的 感 受 我 們 對 對 岸 就 是 中 共 我 們 的 態 度 越 來 越 強 硬 可 是 我 們 對 很 多 其 他 的 國 家 我 們 反 而 會 有 一 些 退 讓 或 怯 懦 甚 至 讓 大 家 覺 得 是 怯 懦 因 為 包 括 剛 剛 也 有 講 到 新 南 向 國 家 新 南 向 其 實 我 們 投 注 了 非 常 多 的 資 源 可 是 我 們\n\n04:30.393 --> 04:51.312\n在 很 多 實 質 的 反 饋 上 面 其 實 是 沒 有 得 到 的 反 而 好 像 是 我 們 付 出 的 比 較 多 所 以 在 這 個 部 分 比 如 說 像 有 很 多 的 免 簽 像 有 很 多 我 們 的 參 訪 其 實 他 們 都 會 受 制 於 很 多 政 治 的 或 其 他 的 考 量 或 國 家 利 益 的 考 量 其 實 他 對 我 們 並 不 是 像 我 們 這 樣 因 為 我 們 口 口 聲 聲 說 要 對 等 所 以 其 實\n\n04:57.697 --> 05:21.297\n我 們 應 該 是 不 是 也 要 像 其 他 國 家 一 樣 以 國 家 的 利 益 還 有 我 們 未 來 的 和 平 發 展 各 方 面 的 面 向 去 考 量 這 樣 我 們 整 個 台 灣 現 在 的 處 境 還 有 中 華 民 國 在 對 外 的 時 候 其 實 他 才 有 更 廣 更 遠 還 有 更 長 還 有 可 能 更 長 治 久 安 的 這 樣 的 一 個 方 向 可 以 遵 循\n\n05:22.760 --> 05:39.969\n是 , 確 實 啦 , 外 交 也 有 它 現 實 的 一 面 就 是 要 互 惠 互 利 嘛 , 那 比 如 說 以 泰 國 來 講 , 它 現 在 延 長 對 台 灣 的 免 簽 , 就 是 因 為 我 們 也 是 有 這 個 官 紅 專 案 嘛 , 那 這 個 就 是 一 個 逐 漸 在 累 積 啊 , 更 多 的 一 個 互 信 的 基 礎 。\n\n05:41.030 --> 05:56.695\n那 至 於 說 對 方 強 硬 有 時 候 是 因 為 中 共 的 因 素 因 為 在 中 國 周 邊 國 家 都 受 到 他 很 多 的 影 響 這 個 時 候 我 們 也 了 解 可 是 比 如 說 我 講 數 位 新 南 向 台 灣 除 了 是 去 紅 供 應 鏈 我 們 的 解 決 方 案\n\n05:57.495 --> 06:11.651\n我 們 5 G 在 台 灣 實 施 的 一 個 創 新 的 這 種 應 用 的 服 務 的 成 果 就 可 以 幫 他 解 決 他 國 家 的 問 題 所 以 我 是 覺 得 提 升 台 灣 的 價 值 來 創 造 這 一 些 跟 我 們 交 往 國 家 他 的 價 值\n\n06:13.052 --> 06:22.638\n這 個 價 值 不 是 只 有 現 實 的 利 益 還 有 很 多 文 化 還 有 觀 光 也 都 是 所 以 確 實 我 們 去 理 性 之 後 時 間 的 關 係 我 們 可 能 沒 辦 法 大 概 就 這 個 部 分 因 為 新 南 向 的 這 個 政 策 已 經 推 動 很 長 的 時 間 包 括 我 們 保 護 我 們 的 一 些 高 科 技 的 技 術 產 業 還 包 括 我 們 的 農 業 技 術 過 去 其 實 都 一 直 朝 這 樣 的 方 向 在 推 動 我 們 去 豐 富 了 他 們\n\n06:41.348 --> 07:04.000\n可 是 我 們 我 剛 剛 講 的 是 我 們 的 反 饋 很 少 我 們 不 是 一 直 講 說 我 們 到 底 對 他 們 做 了 什 麼 他 們 有 什 麼 對 我 們 反 而 他 們 在 受 制 於 中 共 的 壓 力 之 下 他 們 對 我 們 不 敢 表 現 友 好 這 個 這 個 我 們 並 不 算 成 功 這 部 分 我 們 未 來 可 能 還 有 時 間 來 談 那 就 整 個 外 交 的 策 略 我 們 希 望 說 還 是 有 一 些 新 的 佈 局\n\n07:05.180 --> 07:29.936\n還 有 可 能 還 有 些 還 是 要 放 下 身 段 當 你 考 量 國 家 利 益 為 上 的 時 候 有 些 事 情 其 實 是 應 該 要 透 過 談 判 或 透 過 外 交 尤 其 是 外 交 那 不 管 兩 岸 關 係 雖 然 我 們 在 兩 岸 關 係 還 有 陸 委 會 還 有 什 麼 其 他 的 單 位 可 是 都 必 須 透 過 類 似 外 交 手 段 這 樣 子 才 可 以 讓 大 家\n\n07:30.416 --> 07:32.217\n在 去 太 平 島 之 前 有 很 多 包 括 執 政 黨 的 委 員 甚 至 都 一 直 公 然 指 責\n\n07:58.610 --> 07:59.030\n我 們 這 次 去 有 什 麼 國 家 抗 議 嗎 ?\n\n08:12.070 --> 08:28.885\n我 那 時 候 還 沒 擔 任 外 交 部 部 長 所 以 我 還 不 是 很 清 楚 當 時 各 國 的 反 應 不 過 我 想 這 是 國 會 委 員 會 的 考 察 那 我 們 政 府 就 是 全 力 來 配 合 那 也 希 望 能 夠 發 揮 這 一 次 的 考 察 的 很 正 面 的 效 果\n\n08:28.985 --> 08:52.222\n我 們 這 次 去 就 是 非 常 正 面 因 為 第 一 包 括 衛 福 部 長 他 在 國 外 的 時 候 都 說 國 家 主 權 不 容 打 折 所 以 像 我 們 這 樣 去 宣 示 自 己 的 主 權 我 們 居 然 不 敢 做 這 樣 當 你 在 國 內 喊 著 口 號 當 你 在 做 大 外 宣 大 內 宣 說 我 們 的 主 權 不 容 打 折 的 時 候 我 們 的 領 土 居 然\n\n08:52.662 --> 08:59.527\n不 敢 去 或 者 不 讓 我 們 去 我 覺 得 這 是 非 常 嚴 重 的 扭 曲 因 為 我 們 這 一 次 去 其 實 有 很 好 的 一 個 效 果 也 沒 有 聽 到 任 何 國 家 的 抗 議 如 果 有 其 實 大 概 會 有 媒 體 會 有 其 他 的 聲 音 就 會 出 現 我 們 去 這 一 次 看 到 了 防 務 看 到 了 我 們 的 碼 頭 工 程 因 為 在 第 一 線 的 這 樣 的 一 個 島 嶼 上 面 有 我 們 的 官 士 兵 在 上 面\n\n09:18.982 --> 09:38.430\n我 碰 到 一 個 在 那 裡 已 經 服 役 6 年 多 的 我 們 南 投 的 一 個 年 輕 的 官 兵 他 在 那 裡 6 年 多 在 那 裡 要 待 6 年 多 真 的 不 容 易 因 為 在 過 去 我 們 現 在 所 有 年 輕 人 不 要 說 年 輕 人 現 在 所 有 人 大 家 使 用 L I N E 使 用 很 多 的 這 些 網 路 還 有 這 些 可 以 運 用 的\n\n09:42.652 --> 10:00.329\n這 些 傳 播 其 實 在 那 裡 在 那 個 島 上 是 不 能 使 用 他 完 全 沒 有 通 訊 的 這 些 裝 備 現 在 目 前 慢 慢 有 了 所 以 我 們 可 以 去 看 他 們 其 實 他 們 感 受 到 非 常 的 溫 暖 在 這 之 前 是 八 年 前 了\n\n10:01.090 --> 10:05.273\n所 以 我 們 希 望 未 來 更 多 的 機 會 包 括 部 長 有 機 會 跟 我 們 一 起 上 太 平 島 去 看 看 然 後 這 個 也 是 宣 示 我 們 主 權 這 是 比 較 具 體 的 方 法 我 們 希 望 在 國 內 不 要 動 不 動 就 拿 政 治 或 者 拿 對 岸 來 把 它 放 大 或 者 來 扭 曲 或 者 來 打 壓 甚 至 扣 帽 子 我 想 這 是 一 個 例 子 啦 我 特 別 舉 出 來\n\n10:24.884 --> 10:53.325\n那 我 還 要 利 用 一 點 時 間 我 想 要 請 教 部 長 因 為 在 5 2 1 的 時 候 也 就 是 5 2 0 賴 總 統 剛 就 職 的 這 個 時 間 點 在 媒 體 的 報 導 說 外 交 部 國 和 會 派 駐 聖 路 西 亞 也 是 我 們 邦 交 國 技 術 團 的 這 個 替 代 義 男 他 涉 嫌 經 營 販 毒 在 過 境 美 國 的 時 候 就 被 美 方 的 司 法 部 門 逮 捕\n\n10:54.158 --> 11:09.561\n可 見 他 光 是 過 境 而 已 他 就 被 逮 捕 所 以 他 已 經 被 掌 握 了 一 段 時 間 他 不 是 在 美 國 發 生 這 樣 子 的 一 個 違 法 的 事 件 所 以 可 是 我 們 現 在 特 別 要 提 的 因 為 他 犯 的 都 是 重 罪 甚 至 最 高 可 以 判 到 無 期 徒 刑\n\n11:10.382 --> 11:33.480\n那 在 這 樣 的 一 個 情 況 之 下 他 外 交 替 代 藝 男 他 是 以 計 劃 助 理 身 份 持 公 務 的 護 照 代 表 國 家 他 是 代 表 國 家 的 他 到 我 們 的 友 邦 或 友 好 國 家 去 扶 勤 那 像 這 樣 的 情 況 有 沒 有 什 麼 樣 的 行 政 調 查 因 為 這 是 代 表 我 們 國 家 你 當 初 要 去 的 時 候\n\n11:34.201 --> 11:54.895\n是 怎 麼 樣 做 他 的 背 景 調 查 而 且 他 還 是 他 的 專 長 是 一 些 網 路 啊 科 技 方 面 的 這 些 專 長 我 們 派 到 聖 路 西 亞 邦 交 國 的 時 候 他 甚 至 還 在 警 察 學 校 擔 任 講 師 那 現 在 會 不 會 因 為 憑 藉 外 交 人 員 身 份 從 事 非 法 活 動 會 讓 我 們 的 邦 交 國 也 覺 得 我 們 這 樣 是 太 離 譜 了\n\n11:59.778 --> 12:20.448\n是 跟 委 員 說 明 當 然 我 們 未 來 這 個 例 子 一 定 要 做 好 好 的 檢 討 當 然 替 代 易 蘭 是 內 政 部 易 政 司 他 在 做 這 個 審 查 但 是 當 然 出 去 了 就 代 表 我 們 國 家 那 這 一 次 其 實 是 美 國 聯 邦 調 查 局 跟 我 們 政 府 其 實 在\n\n12:22.436 --> 12:45.573\n在 這 個 調 查 過 程 是 有 一 些 交 流 合 作 所 以 並 不 是 狀 況 外 只 是 因 為 在 偵 辦 中 我 們 也 不 能 夠 先 有 什 麼 動 作 不 過 並 不 是 說 報 導 之 後 我 們 才 知 道 是 在 那 個 他 在 轉 機 過 境 的 時 候 其 實 我 們 跟 美 國 已 經 有 取 得 這 個 雙 方 面 的 一 個 聯 繫 跟 我 們 也 全 力 在 配 合 他 們 偵 辦\n\n12:47.967 --> 13:05.586\n因 為 我 們 在 詢 問 的 時 候 那 時 候 外 交 部 是 說 不 知 道 的 這 個 是 兩 種 也 然 不 同 的 一 個 狀 況 因 為 我 們 在 民 國 在 9 1 年 3 月 的 時 候 曾 經 簽 署 臺 美 形 式 司 法 互 助 協 定 就 這 個 部 分 因 為 美 方 在 逮 捕 持 有 臺 灣 公 務 護 照 入 境 的 這 樣 子 的 一 個\n\n13:07.028 --> 13:07.488\n我 講 的 外 交 部 不 是 說\n\n13:33.568 --> 13:56.168\n就 是 我 們 外 交 部 其 實 我 們 政 府 的 其 他 的 部 跟 我 們 外 交 部 在 駐 外 的 單 位 不 是 有 外 交 部 去 抓 啦 我 意 思 是 說 如 果 你 是 事 先 知 情 那 你 已 經 知 道 這 個 人 有 問 題 因 為 他 在 我 們 的 邦 交 國 他 在 邦 交 國 他 是 教 警 察 學 校 喔 他 過 境 的 時 候 是 美 國 先 出 手 他 反 而 不 是 我 們 自 己 掌 握 以 後 我 們 自 己 有 所 動 作 這 是 兩 個 問 題\n\n13:58.550 --> 13:58.710\n主 席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.859,"end":1.565,"text":"謝主席 麻煩請部長"},{"start":16.056,"end":33.288,"text":"這一次因為今天非常多的委員大家也關切了非常多我們在外交還有目前的處境上面那其實到目前為止我們的幫交過越來越少這也是我們現在可能要面臨的一個困境"},{"start":36.271,"end":59.968,"text":"吳釗燮部長現在的國安會的秘書長他之前有提到他卸任前他有特別提到我們有兩個邦交國有鬆動的現象不曉得部長現在有沒有掌握這樣子的一個情況這兩個邦交國會不會有影響各位報告可以說是哪兩個嗎"},{"start":61.277,"end":89.485,"text":"每一個邦交國我們都很重視我覺得我們知道從故邦到龍邦比如這一次我們以瓜地馬拉來講他的總統派了外交部長來外界有報導他們總統就又召開了視訊會議跟我們賴總統就是要來澄清外面可能的一些錯誤他們外交部長到了日本之後"},{"start":90.465,"end":116.914,"text":"又發表了共同對臺灣的支持結果我們現在看到瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡跟夏威夷豆有7個貨櫃就是現在進不了中國像這個時候我們就是把它當作自己的事情就像之前的立陶宛一樣我是舉這個例子就是說除了預警以外我們怎麼樣用總和外交的力量來讓這些國家覺得跟臺灣的交往"},{"start":117.833,"end":117.873,"text":"副部長"},{"start":147.976,"end":166.351,"text":"因為時間的關係就是說我們可能用很多的方式或者可以讓我們的邦交國感受到我們可能才是可以長久交往的一個對象一個邦交的國家我們可能會有很多的方式我們現在只是比較關切的因為過去實在減損了太多的邦交國"},{"start":171.955,"end":172.255,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":203.696,"end":225.168,"text":"我覺得每個國家都要顧好而且我打算除了他們來我們也要去我們希望大概就這個部分我們大概現在只剩下12個要怎麼好好的去兼顧那可能也是未來林部長的考驗跟要努力的方向因為我們邦交國畢竟是"},{"start":226.169,"end":226.389,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":243.647,"end":269.653,"text":"一般來說有很多的民眾也有這樣的感受我們對對岸就是中共我們的態度越來越強硬可是我們對很多其他的國家我們反而會有一些退讓或怯懦甚至讓大家覺得是怯懦因為包括剛剛也有講到新南向國家新南向其實我們投注了非常多的資源可是我們"},{"start":270.393,"end":291.312,"text":"在很多實質的反饋上面其實是沒有得到的反而好像是我們付出的比較多所以在這個部分比如說像有很多的免簽像有很多我們的參訪其實他們都會受制於很多政治的或其他的考量或國家利益的考量其實他對我們並不是像我們這樣因為我們口口聲聲說要對等所以其實"},{"start":297.697,"end":321.297,"text":"我們應該是不是也要像其他國家一樣以國家的利益還有我們未來的和平發展各方面的面向去考量這樣我們整個台灣現在的處境還有中華民國在對外的時候其實他才有更廣更遠還有更長還有可能更長治久安的這樣的一個方向可以遵循"},{"start":322.76,"end":339.969,"text":"是,確實啦,外交也有它現實的一面就是要互惠互利嘛,那比如說以泰國來講,它現在延長對台灣的免簽,就是因為我們也是有這個官紅專案嘛,那這個就是一個逐漸在累積啊,更多的一個互信的基礎。"},{"start":341.03,"end":356.695,"text":"那至於說對方強硬有時候是因為中共的因素因為在中國周邊國家都受到他很多的影響這個時候我們也了解可是比如說我講數位新南向台灣除了是去紅供應鏈我們的解決方案"},{"start":357.495,"end":371.651,"text":"我們5G在台灣實施的一個創新的這種應用的服務的成果就可以幫他解決他國家的問題所以我是覺得提升台灣的價值來創造這一些跟我們交往國家他的價值"},{"start":373.052,"end":382.638,"text":"這個價值不是只有現實的利益還有很多文化還有觀光也都是所以確實我們去理性之後時間的關係我們可能沒辦法大概就這個部分因為新南向的這個政策已經推動很長的時間包括我們保護我們的一些高科技的技術產業還包括我們的農業技術過去其實都一直朝這樣的方向在推動我們去豐富了他們"},{"start":401.348,"end":424,"text":"可是我們我剛剛講的是我們的反饋很少我們不是一直講說我們到底對他們做了什麼他們有什麼對我們反而他們在受制於中共的壓力之下他們對我們不敢表現友好這個這個我們並不算成功這部分我們未來可能還有時間來談那就整個外交的策略我們希望說還是有一些新的佈局"},{"start":425.18,"end":449.936,"text":"還有可能還有些還是要放下身段當你考量國家利益為上的時候有些事情其實是應該要透過談判或透過外交尤其是外交那不管兩岸關係雖然我們在兩岸關係還有陸委會還有什麼其他的單位可是都必須透過類似外交手段這樣子才可以讓大家"},{"start":450.416,"end":452.217,"text":"在去太平島之前有很多包括執政黨的委員甚至都一直公然指責"},{"start":478.61,"end":479.03,"text":"我們這次去有什麼國家抗議嗎?"},{"start":492.07,"end":508.885,"text":"我那時候還沒擔任外交部部長所以我還不是很清楚當時各國的反應不過我想這是國會委員會的考察那我們政府就是全力來配合那也希望能夠發揮這一次的考察的很正面的效果"},{"start":508.985,"end":532.222,"text":"我們這次去就是非常正面因為第一包括衛福部長他在國外的時候都說國家主權不容打折所以像我們這樣去宣示自己的主權我們居然不敢做這樣當你在國內喊著口號當你在做大外宣大內宣說我們的主權不容打折的時候我們的領土居然"},{"start":532.662,"end":539.527,"text":"不敢去或者不讓我們去我覺得這是非常嚴重的扭曲因為我們這一次去其實有很好的一個效果也沒有聽到任何國家的抗議如果有其實大概會有媒體會有其他的聲音就會出現我們去這一次看到了防務看到了我們的碼頭工程因為在第一線的這樣的一個島嶼上面有我們的官士兵在上面"},{"start":558.982,"end":578.43,"text":"我碰到一個在那裡已經服役6年多的我們南投的一個年輕的官兵他在那裡6年多在那裡要待6年多真的不容易因為在過去我們現在所有年輕人不要說年輕人現在所有人大家使用LINE使用很多的這些網路還有這些可以運用的"},{"start":582.652,"end":600.329,"text":"這些傳播其實在那裡在那個島上是不能使用他完全沒有通訊的這些裝備現在目前慢慢有了所以我們可以去看他們其實他們感受到非常的溫暖在這之前是八年前了"},{"start":601.09,"end":605.273,"text":"所以我們希望未來更多的機會包括部長有機會跟我們一起上太平島去看看然後這個也是宣示我們主權這是比較具體的方法我們希望在國內不要動不動就拿政治或者拿對岸來把它放大或者來扭曲或者來打壓甚至扣帽子我想這是一個例子啦我特別舉出來"},{"start":624.884,"end":653.325,"text":"那我還要利用一點時間我想要請教部長因為在521的時候也就是520賴總統剛就職的這個時間點在媒體的報導說外交部國和會派駐聖路西亞也是我們邦交國技術團的這個替代義男他涉嫌經營販毒在過境美國的時候就被美方的司法部門逮捕"},{"start":654.158,"end":669.561,"text":"可見他光是過境而已他就被逮捕所以他已經被掌握了一段時間他不是在美國發生這樣子的一個違法的事件所以可是我們現在特別要提的因為他犯的都是重罪甚至最高可以判到無期徒刑"},{"start":670.382,"end":693.48,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下他外交替代藝男他是以計劃助理身份持公務的護照代表國家他是代表國家的他到我們的友邦或友好國家去扶勤那像這樣的情況有沒有什麼樣的行政調查因為這是代表我們國家你當初要去的時候"},{"start":694.201,"end":714.895,"text":"是怎麼樣做他的背景調查而且他還是他的專長是一些網路啊科技方面的這些專長我們派到聖路西亞邦交國的時候他甚至還在警察學校擔任講師那現在會不會因為憑藉外交人員身份從事非法活動會讓我們的邦交國也覺得我們這樣是太離譜了"},{"start":719.778,"end":740.448,"text":"是跟委員說明當然我們未來這個例子一定要做好好的檢討當然替代易蘭是內政部易政司他在做這個審查但是當然出去了就代表我們國家那這一次其實是美國聯邦調查局跟我們政府其實在"},{"start":742.436,"end":765.573,"text":"在這個調查過程是有一些交流合作所以並不是狀況外只是因為在偵辦中我們也不能夠先有什麼動作不過並不是說報導之後我們才知道是在那個他在轉機過境的時候其實我們跟美國已經有取得這個雙方面的一個聯繫跟我們也全力在配合他們偵辦"},{"start":767.967,"end":785.586,"text":"因為我們在詢問的時候那時候外交部是說不知道的這個是兩種也然不同的一個狀況因為我們在民國在91年3月的時候曾經簽署臺美形式司法互助協定就這個部分因為美方在逮捕持有臺灣公務護照入境的這樣子的一個"},{"start":787.028,"end":787.488,"text":"我講的外交部不是說"},{"start":813.568,"end":836.168,"text":"就是我們外交部其實我們政府的其他的部跟我們外交部在駐外的單位不是有外交部去抓啦我意思是說如果你是事先知情那你已經知道這個人有問題因為他在我們的邦交國他在邦交國他是教警察學校喔他過境的時候是美國先出手他反而不是我們自己掌握以後我們自己有所動作這是兩個問題"},{"start":838.55,"end":838.71,"text":"主席"}]}}}}