{"id":153330,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153330","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba630aabfc464c982a4869c0f3e297fc60beba37a180c9b1cd3b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:01:40 - 10:17:53","影片長度":"00:16:13","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":973,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-28"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:17:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:01:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":429,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時1分）謝謝召委。有請我們司法院吳秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法務部部長請假？"],["主席：他到11點才會來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長、次長、各位列席官員，大家早！我先給兩位看兩張圖表，法務部司法官學院執行的中華民國 111年犯罪狀況分析，請看這兩張表，近10年少年犯罪嫌疑人數，最多為102年12,038人，最少為107年8,893人，近3年自109年10,226人逐年減少至111年為9,554人，也就是說，看起來其實是持平啦！請問司法院，看起來我國近年少年的觸法人數到底是上升還是下降？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，因為少子化，其實整體的人數是在下降，但是有一部分的業務、案件類型其實一直在成長當中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！你看這是法務部的，你看司法院的，司法院的官網是這樣講，近10年來，少年（12歲以上未滿18歲）調查事件呈現整個件數下滑，這個看起來很明顯跟法務部的報告就有落差，我要請教司法院秘書長，你們可不可以解釋一下，你們網站上的調查事件的定義是怎麼樣？我國少年觸法情況，到底你們認為是上升還是下降？你們這個差距很大，你當然是有類型化，我當然懂你的意思。"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，我們的調查事件，因為我們的案源來自於三種，一種大部分都是警察局對於少年如果觸法或者是他有曝險，現在曝險大概會先送少輔會，所以會送法院的，現在大概就是我們的觸法案件，進來之後我們就會分少調，所以這裡的調查案件是指12歲到18歲以下的少年觸犯刑罰法律的事件，這是我們的少年調查事件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，我的意思就是說……"],["謝廳長靜慧：另外一種是檢察官，另外其他還有不論任何人都可以向法院報告。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我以下要提的是，其實我感受到司法院跟法務部，你們對整個數字的掌握，其實在我看起來是有一個很大的落差啦！我想國人最關心、大家也最痛恨的，就是這幾年政府最想解決的少年的犯罪，大家最討厭的是什麼？我看接下來打詐四法其實朝野大家都有共識，大家也非常地痛恨，只是這個手段要怎麼樣通過法制化以後，提供給整個司法單位一個更好的利器。事實上，詐騙集團裡面一個很明顯的特徵就是，他很喜歡找年輕人當車手，反正被抓了向上溯源，青少年的刑責是最低的。所以關於少年觸法的人數，你說近十年沒有特別的一個漲幅，我相信、我也願意相信，從數字裡面來看，可是這個沒有特別的漲幅，就像剛剛你提到的觸法類型有所差別，原本從竊盜人數最大宗，到2021年開始變成詐欺人數最多。","但我要提出一點，我們政府必須要反省的一個地方就是，我們去跟別的國家做比較，你去跟鄰國日本做比較的話，日本從2003年以後，少年犯罪率跟犯罪人數一直處於穩定下降的趨勢，以2022年為例，少年刑事犯罪人口在10萬人裡面占193.3人；那臺灣同年、2022年來做比較的話，我們每10萬人口裡面是800人。日本193.3、我們800，秘書長，這個是很恐怖的喔！你去比較看看其他的國家，臺灣少年觸法人數這麼高，這看起來很少見，你看美國，有時候我們都認為它治安不太好，依美國司法部的統計，美國每10萬名裡面，10到17歲少年的被逮捕率，近十年減少了57%、降低了57%；英國的狀況也是如此，10到17歲的少年逮捕率從2011年20萬降到2021年5萬，減幅75%！","所以我要請教法務部，為什麼我們臺灣少年觸法事件這麼的高？我們沒有辦法有效降低，是不是我們整個制度設計上或者整個社會安全網上有哪一些需要再改善的地方？"],["徐次長錫祥：青少年犯罪是多面向的，絕對不是只有法律……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：社會、經濟……"],["徐次長錫祥：教育。"],["莊委員瑞雄：家庭等這些都是。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，打詐四法其實是我們防止詐騙很重要的利器，從源頭去管制、去克服，會使得案件下降。我們今年從1月到4月統計，其實我們的詐欺案件是下滑了，初步透過各部會的合作其實已經開始下滑、已經有百分之十幾的成績出來了。如果打詐四法經過大院再全力地支持我們，將這個法律制定好了以後，相關部會的子法再制定出來，會再更進一步有效地打擊這些詐騙集團。這個源頭管制好了以後，末端的青年車手應該會有所減少，所以我們希望大家一起努力，大院能夠來協助我們，我想這個是我們要報告的內容。"],["莊委員瑞雄：昨天我陪著卓院長去看韓院長，打詐四法我相信行政院也弄出來了，朝野針對這個部分的歧異也非常小，我們倒要好好地去檢驗，提供給我們司法部門這樣一個武器以後，接下來的人數、整個犯罪率，尤其是少年犯罪會不會降低。我現在針對的部分其實就是所謂的少年，我也會特別有感就是這個地方，我也不知道問題出在哪，我們去跟別的國家比較，人家是降低那麼多。","我們都知道少事法針對曝險少年的保護事件跟觸法少年的刑事案件提供他們不同的處遇，用這樣的分流，涉及到兩個重要的職務去做串聯，看上去就是少年調查官跟少年保護官，一個肩負調查、蒐集少年的資料，開庭前交由法官參考；一個執行保護處分，類似社會工作者這樣的角色，協助監督少年執行法院所裁定的處分。","這兩個看起來有明確定位的工作，本席時間比較少，不然我其實有發現一個很大的問題。這個制度從原來的少年觀護人演變而來，少年調查官跟少年保護官是從少年觀護人演變過來，到了1997年修法以後，把調查跟保護分開；實務上你去看，我從高雄的少年及家事法院來看，運作上你們又將兩個合併了，秘書長，又變合併了！合併以後，你說調查官同時也是一個保護官，我看起來就覺得怪怪的，秘書長，我看就怪怪的，你知道嗎？作為調查官本來程序上保持客觀，調查程序啟動以後，發現少年可能有其他符合觸法要件的事情，理論上調查官馬上要去告知，等於他是一個監督、觀察、提交重要證據給法官的人，如果你又把調查跟保護合併在一起的話，如果是我，我發現一個新的犯罪事實，我是調查又兼保護官，那我要呈報嗎？簡直是兩難，反而沒有辦法讓保護官落實原本要跟少年取得互信的基礎，我認為這個會打上一個大問號！","所以我請教秘書長，當初立意良善將調查跟保護制度分離，現在司法院要怎麼具體落實？有沒有辦法改善第一線實務的方式？"],["謝廳長靜慧：委員，是不是由我來回答？"],["莊委員瑞雄：我強調的是風險！"],["謝廳長靜慧：我知道。跟委員報告，我們的調查官跟保護官從1997年少事法大修法之後，其實是跟觀護人……最早是少年觀護人，後來才有成觀，而觀護人主要是做保護的部分，但少年法庭的調查官其實是要去調查少年為什麼會去竊盜、為什麼會去擔任車手背後的原因，比如他的家庭功能、教育功能到底有什麼問題，而調查跟保護後來兼理的原因主要是人力的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這我知道啦！"],["謝廳長靜慧：是！"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是本來分離你將他們合流，到最後變成合併這個角色，會不會有衝突？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，新北這個個案發生之後……"],["莊委員瑞雄：缺人！"],["謝廳長靜慧：對！我們大概用試辦……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們缺人，所以制度設計到最後因為缺人就把整個制度又收尾掉了！"],["謝廳長靜慧：沒有！跟委員報告，我們的試辦計畫──保護管束風險管理計畫就是把這塊的執行拉出來，然後找專責的調保官去處理保護處分的執行，尤其是高風險的少年，這部分我們在現有人力還沒有到位之前用這樣的方式，比如委外的社工師跟心理師協助我們的保護官去執行這些高風險的保護管束。"],["莊委員瑞雄：問題出在哪裡，你們知道嗎？制度設計冷冰冰！真正在落實的時候，你去跟別的國家做比較，我就看這個數字，差距太大！我們自己來做比較，我們那個數字呈現的下降趨勢，有、有下降，但是那個速度很慢；反觀你去跟隔壁的日本，甚至跟我們認為犯罪率很高的美國比較，我們也輸人很多！","很多制度的設計，是很多人的努力，這我都知道，不想去打擊，可是很多制度的設計就是聊備一格而已！譬如你們現在少輔會本身的組織也很微妙，由地方縣市首長擔任主任委員，讓警察跟社工人員一起來進行針對這些曝險少年的輔導跟改善，他們面對的可能有一些是施打毒品、有槍砲的人、準備要砍人或做壞事的，這些人真的有心、真的有在落實我們制度設計的這些工作嗎？我如果當縣長、當市長，我自己的事情都搞不完了，我還跟你們搞這些？我只是去剪綵一下、走動一下而已，當然也有鼓勵的性質，不能說沒有啦，所以這個就非常奇怪啦！","第三個問題我要請教一下部長，是次長，被我叫到你就馬上升官！現在少年輔導委員會先行以後，我們就試圖讓這些少輔會有更多的職能，任務變多，就像是司法院講的人力也沒有變多，那這些組織又這麼地鬆散，地方各局處參與的部分實際上到底有沒有任何統籌跟規劃？你們有沒有碰到什麼樣的困境？我們從去年轟動全臺的新北國中少年持彈簧刀把人殺害的案例就可以看到，這個少年他去過觀護所，如果說少年保護官的能量是足夠，你持續追蹤、配合當地的少輔，積極去介入個案的話，像這一些悲劇我認為其實都是可以減緩的。","所以我剛剛為什麼會講到你們談出來的，司法人就是常常會這樣，法律人就是常常這樣，會講出一套制度、制定一套制度，可是在冷冰冰的制度底下，再來看具體數字的時候，你會發現我們這些努力，我不想去打擊，可是我覺得這個成效的差距太大。","當然除了保護處分以外，還有少數的裁定感化教育跟安置輔導，這些處遇本席認為當然是非常重要，所以從3月桃園敦品矯正學校發生暴動以後，你們也特別針對感化教育處遇提出一些看法，這些我就不再贅述，但是從整個少事法的發動開始，問題就慢慢現形，少輔會的權責跟一路陪伴青年調查程序到保護程序的保護官，這個本席認為真的是重中之重，不能因為人力的問題，我們制度本來的設計是分流，結果到最後整個功能就失掉了，不要忘記，我們第一條有講為了保障少年健全的自我成長，調整其成長環境，並矯治他的性格，這一步其實是很多前輩慢慢跟社會溝通後才建構出來的制度，從對孩子的規訓跟懲罰，逐漸去落實以教育代替刑罰的保護精神，這條路本來就會非常漫長，中間我們也看到很多破口，我們也希望不是只有法務部跟司法院這兩個單位有辦法單獨去做到，可以從不同的環境處遇跟社福接軌，都可以盡力做的更完善，我要講的就是，都是大人啦！我們創造了制度，但是數字讓我們看見努力的空間還是很大，法務部還有司法院，我們也期待這個部分真的要努力，我光看到這個數字，尤其是法務部跟司法院這樣的一個數字，我兩張圖表讓你看，我就感受到你們對數字的看法、對整個狀況的掌握真的有落差，但是我覺得你們是無感的，因為你們看的是制度，立法院看的是這些冷冰冰的數字裡面，我們要怎麼去突破，讓這個制度去發揮具體落實，加油好不好？謝謝。"],["謝廳長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00011"}},"transcript":{"id":"153330","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153330","tool":"pyannote","id":"153330-pyannote"},"job_id":"7N8G18JmsPEMpR4N","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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\"end\": 969.967, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:01,150\n謝 謝 。 謝 謝 張 偉 。 有 請 我 們 司 法 院 吳 秘 書 長 。 麻 煩 秘 書 長 。 法 務 部 部 長 先 生 。 他 到 1 1 點 才 會 來 。 那 個 次 長 。 次 長 。 麻 煩 次 長 。\n\n2\n00:00:36,939 --> 00:00:51,841\n委 員 好 秘 書 長 還 有 市 長 還 有 各 位 列 席 的 官 員 大 家 早 我 先 來 給 兩 位 看 兩 張 圖 表 就 是 說 從 那 個 圖 表 秀 一 下\n\n3\n00:00:53,491 --> 00:01:09,623\n我 們 法 務 部 司 法 官 學 任 執 行 中 的 中 華 民 國 1 1 1 年 犯 罪 狀 況 的 分 析 這 兩 張 表 近 1 0 年 少 年 犯 罪 嫌 疑 人 數 最 多 在 1 0 2 年 1 2 , 0 3 8 人 最 少 就 是 1 0 7 年 的 8 , 8 9 3 但 近 3 年 從 1 0 9 年 的\n\n4\n00:01:23,129 --> 00:01:45,624\n1 萬 2 2 6 人 逐 年 減 少 到 1 1 1 年 9 5 5 4 也 就 是 說 看 起 來 其 實 是 持 平 請 問 我 們 司 法 院 看 起 來 我 國 今 年 少 年 的 處 罰 人 數 將 到 底 是 上 升 還 是 下 降\n\n5\n00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:50,620\n你 看 司 法 院 的 連 司 法 院 裡 面\n\n6\n00:02:06,670 --> 00:02:34,230\n你 們 的 官 網 裡 面 是 這 樣 講 近 1 0 年 來 這 個 少 年 就 是 1 2 歲 以 上 未 滿 1 8 歲 調 查 事 件 呈 現 這 個 整 個 件 數 下 滑 你 說 你 這 個 看 起 來 就 很 明 顯 跟 法 務 部 的 報 告 就 有 落 差 啦 所 以 我 要 請 教 司 法 院 秘 書 長 就 是 說 你 可 不 可 以 解 釋 一 下 你 網 上 上 次 調 查 事 件 的 定 義 是 怎 麼 樣 那 我 國 少 年 處 罰 情 況 到 底 你 們 是 上 升 還 是 下 降\n\n7\n00:02:35,731 --> 00:02:36,336\n你 們 這 個 差 距 很 大\n\n8\n00:02:37,970 --> 00:03:07,142\n你 當 然 是 有 類 型 化 我 當 然 懂 你 的 意 思 是 各 位 委 員 報 告 我 們 的 調 查 事 件 呢 因 為 我 們 的 案 源 呢 其 實 來 自 於 三 種 一 種 大 部 分 都 是 警 察 局 對 於 少 年 如 果 有 觸 法 或 者 是 他 有 曝 險 那 大 概 現 在 曝 險 大 概 會 先 送 少 府 會 所 以 會 送 法 院 呢 大 概 現 在 大 概 就 是 我 們 的 觸 法 案 件 進 來 之 後 我 們 就 會 分 少 調 所 以 這 裡 的 調 查 案 件 是 指 少 年 1 2 歲 到 1 8 歲 以 下 的 這 個 少 年 觸 犯 刑 法 法 律 的 事 件 這 是 我 們 的 少 年 調 查 事 件\n\n9\n00:03:07,722 --> 00:03:33,405\n是 啦 我 的 意 思 就 是 說 另 外 一 種 是 檢 察 官 那 另 外 其 他 的 還 有 不 論 任 何 人 都 可 以 向 法 院 報 告 我 以 下 要 提 的 就 是 說 其 實 我 感 受 到 我 們 司 法 院 這 邊 跟 法 務 部 這 個 地 方 你 們 對 整 個 數 字 裡 面 這 樣 的 一 個 掌 握 其 實 在 我 看 起 來 是 有 很 大 的 一 個 落 差 啦 我 看 起 來 是 很 大 落 差 但 我 想 最 主 要 啊 國 人 最 關 心 的 大 家 也 最 痛 恨 的 這 幾 年 政 府 最 想 解 決 的\n\n10\n00:03:34,446 --> 00:03:54,428\n就 是 這 個 少 年 的 一 個 犯 罪 那 大 家 最 討 厭 的 是 什 麼 我 看 接 下 來 打 詐 司 法 這 個 草 野 大 家 其 實 大 家 都 有 共 識 大 家 也 非 常 的 一 個 痛 恨 只 是 這 個 手 段 怎 麼 樣 在 通 過 法 制 化 以 後 讓 提 供 給 我 們 這 個 整 個 司 法 單 位 有 更 好 的 一 個 利 器 事 實 上\n\n11\n00:03:55,749 --> 00:04:12,614\n一 個 詐 騙 集 團 裡 面 一 個 很 明 顯 的 一 個 特 徵 就 是 說 他 很 喜 歡 找 年 輕 人 當 車 手 反 正 被 抓 了 向 上 去 溯 源 青 少 年 的 刑 責 是 最 低 的 所 以 這 個 其 實 少 年 處 罰 的 人 數 近 十 年 你 說 沒 有 特 別 的 一 個 漲 幅 我 相 信\n\n12\n00:04:13,539 --> 00:04:28,278\n我 也 願 意 相 信 從 數 字 裡 面 來 看 可 是 呢 這 個 沒 有 特 別 的 漲 幅 就 像 剛 剛 你 提 到 的 處 罰 的 類 型 有 所 差 別 原 本 從 竊 盜 人 數 最 大 宗 到 2 0 2 1 年 開 始 變 成 詐 欺 人 數 最 多 但 我 要 提 出 一 點\n\n13\n00:04:29,349 --> 00:04:51,499\n我 們 政 府 必 須 要 去 反 省 的 一 個 地 方 就 是 說 我 們 去 跟 別 的 國 家 做 比 較 你 去 跟 鄰 國 的 日 本 做 比 較 的 話 日 本 從 2 0 0 3 年 以 後 日 本 的 少 年 犯 罪 率 跟 犯 罪 人 數 一 直 處 於 穩 定 的 下 降 的 一 個 趨 勢 以 2 0 2 2 年 的 為 例 他 少 年 刑 事 人 口 犯 罪 的 1 0 萬 人 裡 面 是 1 9 3 . 3 人\n\n14\n00:04:56,542 --> 00:05:01,726\n臺 灣 2 0 0 0 同 年 2 0 2 2 年 來 做 比 較 的 話 我 們 是 每 1 0 萬 人 口 裡 面 是 8 0 0 人 日 本 1 9 3 . 3 我 們 8 0 0\n\n15\n00:05:08,373 --> 00:05:27,823\n秘 書 長 這 個 是 很 恐 怖 的 你 去 看 其 他 的 國 家 台 灣 少 年 處 罰 人 數 這 麼 高 這 個 看 起 來 是 很 少 見 你 看 美 國 有 時 候 我 們 都 認 為 他 治 安 不 太 好 了 美 國 司 法 部 的 一 個 統 計 美 國 是 1 0 萬 名 裡 面 1 0 到 1 7 歲 的 少 年 被 逮 捕 率 近 1 0 年 他 減 少 了 5 7 %\n\n16\n00:05:29,810 --> 00:05:58,941\n他 降 低 了 5 7 % 英 國 的 狀 況 也 是 如 此 那 1 0 到 1 7 歲 的 少 年 逮 捕 率 從 2 0 1 1 年 從 2 0 萬 降 到 2 0 2 1 年 5 萬 減 幅 7 5 % 所 以 我 要 請 教 法 務 部 的 就 是 說 為 什 麼 我 們 台 灣 少 年 處 罰 事 件 這 麼 的 高 我 們 沒 有 辦 法 去 有 效 的 降 低 是 不 是 我 們 整 個 制 度 的 一 個 設 計 上 或 者 整 個 社 會 安 全 網 上 有 哪 一 些 我 們 需 要 再 改 善 的 地 方\n\n17\n00:05:59,980 --> 00:06:23,462\n青 少 年 犯 罪 那 是 多 面 向 的 絕 對 不 是 只 有 法 律 那 當 然 社 會 、 經 濟 、 家 庭 這 些 都 是 報 告 委 員 那 打 詐 是 法 是 其 實 是 我 們 在 防 止 這 個 詐 騙 是 一 個 很 重 要 的 利 器 那 從 源 頭 去 管 制 去 克 服 會 時 的 案 件 下 降\n\n18\n00:06:23,982 --> 00:06:51,709\n那 我 們 今 年 從 1 月 到 4 月 統 計 其 實 我 們 的 詐 欺 的 案 件 是 下 滑 了 已 經 有 初 步 的 透 過 各 部 會 的 合 作 其 實 我 們 已 經 看 下 法 已 經 有 百 分 之 十 幾 的 成 績 出 來 了 那 如 果 打 詐 事 法 經 過 大 會 再 全 力 的 支 持 我 們 我 們 這 個 法 律 制 定 好 了 以 後 相 關 部 會 的 執 法 再 制 定 出 來 會 再 更 進 一 步 的 有 效 的 打 擊 這 些 詐 騙 集 團 那 這 個 源 頭 管 制 好 了 以 後\n\n19\n00:06:52,609 --> 00:06:53,930\n昨 天 我 陪 了 卓 院 長 去 看 韓 院 長\n\n20\n00:07:08,762 --> 00:07:33,247\n打 炸 司 法 行 政 院 也 弄 出 來 了 我 相 信 朝 野 這 個 部 分 其 實 其 意 也 非 常 小 我 們 都 要 好 好 的 去 檢 驗 提 供 給 我 們 司 法 部 門 這 樣 的 一 個 武 器 以 後 接 下 來 的 人 數 整 個 犯 罪 率 尤 其 是 少 年 犯 罪 會 不 會 去 做 一 個 降 低 我 現 在 針 對 的 部 分 其 實 就 是 所 謂 的 少 年 就 是 少 年 那 我 會 特 別 有 感 就 是 這 個 地 方\n\n21\n00:07:34,963 --> 00:07:51,883\n我 沒 有 問 題 出 在 哪 裡 我 們 去 跟 別 的 國 家 比 較 人 家 是 降 低 那 麼 多 你 說 我 們 都 知 道 少 年 少 事 法 裡 面 針 對 暴 險 少 年 的 保 護 事 件 跟 處 罰 少 年 的 刑 事 案 件 裡 面 提 供 他 們 不 同 的 一 個 處 遇 用 這 樣 的 一 個 分 流 涉 及 到 兩 個 重 要 的 職 務 去 做 一 個 串 聯\n\n22\n00:07:52,904 --> 00:08:10,993\n我 看 就 是 一 個 少 年 調 查 官 跟 少 年 保 護 官 第 一 個 他 們 肩 負 一 個 調 查 收 集 少 年 的 一 個 資 料 你 說 開 庭 前 交 由 法 官 去 參 考 一 個 執 行 保 護 處 分 類 似 社 會 工 作 者 這 樣 的 一 個 角 色 來 協 助 監 督 少 年 執 行 法 院 所 裁 定 的 一 個 處 分 這 兩 個 看 起 來 明 確 定 位 的 一 個 工 作 其 實 我 本 期 時 間 比 較 少 不 然 我 是 發 現 其 實 很 大 的 一 個 問 題\n\n23\n00:08:19,977 --> 00:08:39,566\n這 個 制 度 從 原 來 的 少 年 關 護 人 演 變 來 從 少 年 關 護 人 去 演 變 過 來 到 了 我 們 1 9 9 7 年 去 修 法 以 後 把 調 查 跟 保 護 分 開 實 務 上 你 去 看 我 從 那 個 高 雄 的 少 年 跟 家 事 法 院 裡 面 來 看 運 作 上 你 倒 就 是 變 成 把 兩 個 又 變 成 合 併 了\n\n24\n00:08:41,687 --> 00:08:49,654\n您 可 變 合 併 了 , 聯 名 司 長 , 變 合 併 了 合 併 以 後 就 是 說 , 你 說 這 調 查 官 同 時 也 是 一 個 保 護 官 我 看 起 來 就 覺 得 怪 怪 的\n\n25\n00:08:51,035 --> 00:09:13,955\n比 說 我 看 就 怪 怪 的 你 知 道 嗎 就 是 說 作 為 調 查 官 你 本 來 程 序 上 你 會 保 持 客 觀 調 查 程 序 啟 動 以 後 發 現 少 年 可 能 跟 有 其 他 符 合 處 罰 的 要 件 的 一 個 事 情 理 論 上 你 調 查 官 馬 上 要 去 告 知 那 等 於 說 他 是 一 個 監 督 、 觀 察 、 提 交 重 要 證 據 給 法 官 的 人 那 如 果 你 就 把 這 個 調 查 官 跟 調 查 跟 保 護 又 把 它 合 併 在 一 起 的 話\n\n26\n00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:22,753\n有 時 候 如 果 是 我 的 話 我 發 現 一 個 新 式 犯 罪 的 事 實 我 調 查 右 肩 保 護 官 我 還 要 懲 報 嗎\n\n27\n00:09:24,962 --> 00:09:48,665\n這 簡 直 是 一 個 兩 難 你 反 而 沒 有 辦 法 讓 保 護 官 原 本 要 跟 少 年 取 得 互 信 這 樣 的 一 個 基 礎 我 認 為 你 這 個 會 打 上 一 個 大 問 號 所 以 我 請 教 秘 書 長 就 是 說 你 像 現 在 司 法 院 目 前 當 初 利 益 良 善 的 調 查 跟 保 護 你 把 它 分 離 的 制 度 你 這 樣 要 怎 麼 具 體 落 實 也 沒 有 辦 法 去 改 善 這 個 像 第 一 線 這 樣 實 務 的 一 個 方 式\n\n28\n00:09:51,293 --> 00:10:12,766\n我 強 調 的 是 風 險 我 們 的 調 查 官 跟 保 護 官 從 1 9 9 7 年 開 始 少 子 法 大 修 法 之 後 他 其 實 是 跟 關 護 人 就 是 最 早 是 少 年 關 護 人 後 來 才 有 成 關 關 護 人 其 實 主 要 是 做 保 護 的 部 分\n\n29\n00:10:13,306 --> 00:10:30,873\n但 少 年 法 庭 的 調 查 官 他 其 實 要 去 調 查 少 年 為 什 麼 會 去 竊 盜 為 什 麼 會 去 擔 任 車 手 背 後 的 原 因 比 如 他 的 家 庭 功 能 、 他 的 教 育 功 能 到 底 有 什 麼 問 題 所 以 啊 調 查 跟 保 護 後 來 監 理 的 原 因 主 要 是 人 力 的 問 題 就 我 知 道 啦 人 家 在 本 地 分 離 你 跟 河 流 還 要 變 成 合 併 你 這 個 角 色\n\n30\n00:10:32,654 --> 00:10:32,754\n會 不 會 有 衝 突 ?\n\n31\n00:10:54,270 --> 00:10:58,312\n問 題 出 在 哪 裡 你 們 知 道 嗎 制 度 設 計 冷 冰 冰 啊 真 正 在 落 實 的 時 候 為 什 麼 沒 有 你 去 跟 別 的 國 家 做 比 較\n\n32\n00:11:22,588 --> 00:11:50,288\n我 就 看 這 個 數 字 啊 , 差 距 太 大 。 我 們 自 己 做 筆 稿 , 我 們 那 個 數 字 呈 現 的 下 降 趨 勢 其 實 是 很 急 , 有 , 有 下 降 , 但 是 那 個 速 度 是 很 慢 的 啦 。 你 反 觀 你 去 跟 隔 壁 的 日 本 , 甚 至 我 們 認 為 說 整 個 犯 罪 率 很 高 的 美 國 去 做 比 較 的 話 , 我 們 也 輸 人 添 添 嘛 。 那 一 項 很 多 制 度 的 一 個 設 計 , 我 會 覺 得 很 多 人 在 努 力 , 我 都 知 道 。\n\n33\n00:11:51,189 --> 00:12:14,039\n不 想 去 打 擊 可 是 很 多 制 度 的 涉 及 這 是 一 種 撩 背 一 格 而 已 啊 你 像 譬 如 說 你 們 現 在 少 舞 會 本 身 的 組 織 也 很 微 妙 啊 那 個 地 方 縣 市 首 長 擔 任 主 委 委 員 這 樣 警 察 跟 社 工 人 員 一 起 來 進 行 針 對 這 些 普 遣 少 年 的 輔 導 跟 改 善 他 們 面 對 的 都 可 能 就 是 有 一 些 譬 如 說 施 打 毒 品 啊 或 有 槍 砲 的 人 啊 準 備 要 砍 人 或 做 壞 事 的 這 一 些 這 些 人 真 的 有 心 還 真 的 有 在 去 落 實 我 們 制 度 設 計 這 個 崗 位\n\n34\n00:12:20,285 --> 00:12:43,853\n我 做 館 長 、 我 做 企 長 , 我 自 己 的 事 就 不 去 , 我 跟 你 們 在 一 起 我 去 跟 你 們 煎 菜 一 個 月 而 已 , 我 去 跟 你 們 走 一 個 月 而 已 當 然 也 有 鼓 勵 的 性 質 , 不 能 說 沒 有 啦 所 以 這 個 就 非 常 奇 怪 啦 那 你 本 身 啦 , 我 再 看 啦 第 三 個 問 題 我 要 請 教 一 下 , 部 長 , 我 要 請 市 長 , 我 要 叫 到 你 就 念 我 先\n\n35\n00:12:46,415 --> 00:13:14,507\n這 個 少 輔 會 我 們 現 在 少 年 輔 導 委 員 會 先 行 以 後 我 們 就 試 圖 讓 這 些 少 輔 會 有 更 多 的 職 能 任 務 變 多 但 就 像 司 法 院 講 的 人 力 也 沒 有 變 多 那 這 些 組 織 又 這 麼 的 鬆 散 地 方 各 局 處 參 與 的 部 分 實 際 上 到 底 有 沒 有 任 何 去 統 籌 跟 規 劃 你 們 有 沒 有 碰 到 什 麼 樣 的 一 個 困 境 我 們 從 去 年 轟 動 全 台 的 那 種 新 北 國 中 少 年 吃 那 個 台 灣 刀\n\n36\n00:13:15,547 --> 00:13:44,384\n把 人 殺 害 的 案 例 就 可 以 看 到 了 這 個 少 年 他 去 過 了 關 務 所 如 果 說 少 年 保 護 官 的 能 量 是 足 夠 你 持 續 去 做 一 個 追 蹤 配 合 當 地 的 少 府 積 極 去 介 入 個 案 的 話 像 這 些 悲 劇 我 都 認 為 說 都 其 實 都 是 可 以 減 緩 的 啦 都 是 可 以 減 緩 的 啦 所 以 我 剛 剛 為 什 麼 會 講 到 說 你 們 談 出 來 的 司 法 人 就 是 常 常 會 這 樣 法 律 人 就 常 常 這 樣 會 講 出 一 道 制 度\n\n37\n00:13:45,649 --> 00:14:00,950\n來 制 定 一 套 制 度 可 是 呢 冷 冰 冰 的 制 度 底 下 再 來 看 具 體 的 數 字 你 會 發 現 我 們 這 些 努 力 啊 不 能 我 就 不 想 去 打 擊 可 是 我 就 覺 得 這 個 成 效 差 距 太 大\n\n38\n00:14:02,165 --> 00:14:02,185\n韓 國 瑜\n\n39\n00:14:17,662 --> 00:14:42,952\n是 特 別 針 對 的 趕 快 教 育 入 園 的 一 些 處 遇 提 出 的 看 法 我 這 不 再 贅 述 了 但 是 從 整 個 少 年 少 事 法 的 一 個 發 動 的 開 始 問 題 你 就 慢 慢 去 現 行 少 五 會 的 權 責 跟 一 路 陪 伴 青 年 調 查 程 序 到 保 護 程 序 的 保 護 官 這 個 其 實 本 席 認 為 真 的 是 重 中 之 重 不 能 因 為 說 人 力 的 問 題 啊 到 最 後 我 們 制 度 的 設 計 本 來 是 分 流 然 後 到 最 後\n\n40\n00:14:43,712 --> 00:15:11,878\n就 變 成 說 整 個 功 能 就 失 掉 了 不 要 忘 記 了 你 看 我 們 第 一 條 就 講 說 為 了 保 障 少 年 健 全 的 自 我 成 長 調 整 跟 成 長 環 境 並 矯 制 他 的 一 個 性 格 這 一 步 其 實 是 很 多 前 輩 慢 慢 跟 社 會 溝 通 才 建 構 出 來 的 一 個 制 度 那 從 對 孩 子 的 規 訓 跟 懲 罰 逐 漸 去 落 實 教 育 代 替 刑 法 的 保 護 的 一 個 精 神 這 條 路 本 來 就 會 非 常\n\n41\n00:15:14,256 --> 00:15:41,828\n中 間 我 們 也 看 到 很 多 破 口 我 們 也 希 望 說 當 然 不 是 只 有 法 務 部 跟 司 法 院 這 邊 這 兩 個 單 位 就 有 辦 法 單 獨 去 做 到 可 以 從 不 同 的 環 境 、 處 域 跟 社 福 的 一 個 接 軌 都 可 以 進 一 步 做 完 善 我 們 要 說 的 就 是 都 大 人 我 們 都 能 創 建 大 人 創 造 社 會 環 境 努 力 的 空 間 還 是 很 大 法 務 部 還 有 司 法 院 這 個 地 方 我 們 也 期 待 真 的 是\n\n42\n00:15:42,848 --> 00:16:09,967\n真 的 這 個 部 分 要 努 力 啦 我 光 看 到 這 個 數 字 喔 尤 其 是 法 務 部 跟 司 法 院 這 樣 的 一 個 數 字 我 兩 張 圖 表 讓 你 看 你 們 就 我 就 感 受 到 你 們 的 對 數 字 這 樣 的 一 個 看 法 還 對 整 個 狀 況 的 一 個 掌 握 真 的 有 落 差 但 是 我 覺 得 我 覺 得 你 們 是 無 感 的 因 為 你 們 看 的 是 制 度 立 法 院 看 的 是 說 這 些 冷 冰 冰 的 數 字 裡 面 我 們 怎 麼 樣 去 突 破 讓 這 個 制 度 去 發 揮 具 體 落 實 加 油 好 不 好 好 謝 謝 謝 謝 總 委 員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1150\t謝謝。謝謝張偉。有請我們司法院吳秘書長。麻煩秘書長。法務部部長先生。他到11點才會來。那個次長。次長。麻煩次長。\n36939\t51841\t委員好秘書長還有市長還有各位列席的官員大家早我先來給兩位看兩張圖表就是說從那個圖表秀一下\n53491\t69623\t我們法務部司法官學任執行中的中華民國111年犯罪狀況的分析這兩張表近10年少年犯罪嫌疑人數最多在102年12,038人最少就是107年的8,893但近3年從109年的\n83129\t105624\t1萬226人逐年減少到111年9554也就是說看起來其實是持平請問我們司法院看起來我國今年少年的處罰人數將到底是上升還是下降\n109079\t110620\t你看司法院的連司法院裡面\n126670\t154230\t你們的官網裡面是這樣講近10年來這個少年就是12歲以上未滿18歲調查事件呈現這個整個件數下滑你說你這個看起來就很明顯跟法務部的報告就有落差啦所以我要請教司法院秘書長就是說你可不可以解釋一下你網上上次調查事件的定義是怎麼樣那我國少年處罰情況到底你們是上升還是下降\n155731\t156336\t你們這個差距很大\n157970\t187142\t你當然是有類型化我當然懂你的意思是 各位委員報告我們的調查事件呢因為我們的案源呢其實來自於三種一種大部分都是警察局對於少年如果有觸法或者是他有曝險那大概現在曝險大概會先送少府會所以會送法院呢大概現在大概就是我們的觸法案件進來之後我們就會分少調所以這裡的調查案件是指少年12歲到18歲以下的這個少年觸犯刑法法律的事件這是我們的少年調查事件\n187722\t213405\t是啦 我的意思就是說另外一種是檢察官那另外其他的還有不論任何人都可以向法院報告我以下要提的就是說其實我感受到我們司法院這邊跟法務部這個地方你們對整個數字裡面這樣的一個掌握其實在我看起來是有很大的一個落差啦我看起來是很大落差但我想最主要啊國人最關心的大家也最痛恨的這幾年政府最想解決的\n214446\t234428\t就是這個少年的一個犯罪那大家最討厭的是什麼我看接下來打詐司法這個草野大家其實大家都有共識大家也非常的一個痛恨只是這個手段怎麼樣在通過法制化以後讓提供給我們這個整個司法單位有更好的一個利器事實上\n235749\t252614\t一個詐騙集團裡面一個很明顯的一個特徵就是說他很喜歡找年輕人當車手反正被抓了向上去溯源青少年的刑責是最低的所以這個其實少年處罰的人數近十年你說沒有特別的一個漲幅我相信\n253539\t268278\t我也願意相信從數字裡面來看可是呢這個沒有特別的漲幅就像剛剛你提到的處罰的類型有所差別原本從竊盜人數最大宗到2021年開始變成詐欺人數最多但我要提出一點\n269349\t291499\t我們政府必須要去反省的一個地方就是說我們去跟別的國家做比較你去跟鄰國的日本做比較的話日本從2003年以後日本的少年犯罪率跟犯罪人數一直處於穩定的下降的一個趨勢以2022年的為例他少年刑事人口犯罪的10萬人裡面是193.3人\n296542\t301726\t臺灣2000同年2022年來做比較的話我們是每10萬人口裡面是800人日本193.3我們800\n308373\t327823\t秘書長這個是很恐怖的你去看其他的國家台灣少年處罰人數這麼高這個看起來是很少見你看美國有時候我們都認為他治安不太好了美國司法部的一個統計美國是10萬名裡面10到17歲的少年被逮捕率近10年他減少了57%\n329810\t358941\t他降低了57%英國的狀況也是如此那10到17歲的少年逮捕率從2011年從20萬降到2021年5萬減幅75%所以我要請教法務部的就是說為什麼我們台灣少年處罰事件這麼的高我們沒有辦法去有效的降低是不是我們整個制度的一個設計上或者整個社會安全網上有哪一些我們需要再改善的地方\n359980\t383462\t青少年犯罪那是多面向的 絕對不是只有法律那當然 社會、經濟、家庭這些都是報告委員 那打詐是法是其實是我們在防止這個詐騙是一個很重要的利器那從源頭去管制去克服 會時的案件下降\n383982\t411709\t那我們今年從1月到4月統計其實我們的詐欺的案件是下滑了已經有初步的透過各部會的合作其實我們已經看下法已經有百分之十幾的成績出來了那如果打詐事法經過大會再全力的支持我們我們這個法律制定好了以後相關部會的執法再制定出來會再更進一步的有效的打擊這些詐騙集團那這個源頭管制好了以後\n412609\t413930\t昨天我陪了卓院長去看韓院長\n428762\t453247\t打炸司法行政院也弄出來了我相信朝野這個部分其實其意也非常小我們都要好好的去檢驗提供給我們司法部門這樣的一個武器以後接下來的人數整個犯罪率尤其是少年犯罪會不會去做一個降低我現在針對的部分其實就是所謂的少年就是少年那我會特別有感就是這個地方\n454963\t471883\t我沒有問題出在哪裡我們去跟別的國家比較人家是降低那麼多你說我們都知道少年少事法裡面針對暴險少年的保護事件跟處罰少年的刑事案件裡面提供他們不同的一個處遇用這樣的一個分流涉及到兩個重要的職務去做一個串聯\n472904\t490993\t我看就是一個少年調查官跟少年保護官第一個他們肩負一個調查收集少年的一個資料你說開庭前交由法官去參考一個執行保護處分類似社會工作者這樣的一個角色來協助監督少年執行法院所裁定的一個處分這兩個看起來明確定位的一個工作其實我本期時間比較少不然我是發現其實很大的一個問題\n499977\t519566\t這個制度從原來的少年關護人演變來從少年關護人去演變過來到了我們1997年去修法以後把調查跟保護分開實務上你去看我從那個高雄的少年跟家事法院裡面來看運作上你倒就是變成把兩個又變成合併了\n521687\t529654\t您可變合併了,聯名司長,變合併了合併以後就是說,你說這調查官同時也是一個保護官我看起來就覺得怪怪的\n531035\t553955\t比說我看就怪怪的你知道嗎就是說作為調查官你本來程序上你會保持客觀調查程序啟動以後發現少年可能跟有其他符合處罰的要件的一個事情理論上你調查官馬上要去告知那等於說他是一個監督、觀察、提交重要證據給法官的人那如果你就把這個調查官跟調查跟保護又把它合併在一起的話\n555316\t562753\t有時候如果是我的話我發現一個新式犯罪的事實我調查右肩保護官我還要懲報嗎\n564962\t588665\t這簡直是一個兩難你反而沒有辦法讓保護官原本要跟少年取得互信這樣的一個基礎我認為你這個會打上一個大問號所以我請教秘書長就是說你像現在司法院目前當初利益良善的調查跟保護你把它分離的制度你這樣要怎麼具體落實也沒有辦法去改善這個像第一線這樣實務的一個方式\n591293\t612766\t我強調的是風險我們的調查官跟保護官從1997年開始少子法大修法之後他其實是跟關護人就是最早是少年關護人後來才有成關關護人其實主要是做保護的部分\n613306\t630873\t但少年法庭的調查官他其實要去調查少年為什麼會去竊盜為什麼會去擔任車手背後的原因比如他的家庭功能、他的教育功能到底有什麼問題所以啊 調查跟保護後來監理的原因主要是人力的問題就我知道啦 人家在本地分離你跟河流還要變成合併你這個角色\n632654\t632754\t會不會有衝突?\n654270\t658312\t問題出在哪裡你們知道嗎制度設計冷冰冰啊真正在落實的時候為什麼沒有你去跟別的國家做比較\n682588\t710288\t我就看這個數字啊,差距太大。我們自己做筆稿,我們那個數字呈現的下降趨勢其實是很急,有,有下降,但是那個速度是很慢的啦。你反觀你去跟隔壁的日本,甚至我們認為說整個犯罪率很高的美國去做比較的話,我們也輸人添添嘛。那一項很多制度的一個設計,我會覺得很多人在努力,我都知道。\n711189\t734039\t不想去打擊可是很多制度的涉及這是一種撩背一格而已啊你像譬如說你們現在少舞會本身的組織也很微妙啊那個地方縣市首長擔任主委委員這樣警察跟社工人員一起來進行針對這些普遣少年的輔導跟改善他們面對的都可能就是有一些譬如說施打毒品啊或有槍砲的人啊準備要砍人或做壞事的這一些這些人真的有心還真的有在去落實我們制度設計這個崗位\n740285\t763853\t我做館長、我做企長,我自己的事就不去,我跟你們在一起我去跟你們煎菜一個月而已,我去跟你們走一個月而已當然也有鼓勵的性質,不能說沒有啦所以這個就非常奇怪啦那你本身啦,我再看啦第三個問題我要請教一下,部長,我要請市長,我要叫到你就念我先\n766415\t794507\t這個少輔會我們現在少年輔導委員會先行以後我們就試圖讓這些少輔會有更多的職能任務變多但就像司法院講的人力也沒有變多那這些組織又這麼的鬆散地方各局處參與的部分實際上到底有沒有任何去統籌跟規劃你們有沒有碰到什麼樣的一個困境我們從去年轟動全台的那種新北國中少年吃那個台灣刀\n795547\t824384\t把人殺害的案例就可以看到了這個少年他去過了關務所如果說少年保護官的能量是足夠你持續去做一個追蹤配合當地的少府積極去介入個案的話像這些悲劇我都認為說都其實都是可以減緩的啦都是可以減緩的啦所以我剛剛為什麼會講到說你們談出來的司法人就是常常會這樣法律人就常常這樣會講出一道制度\n825649\t840950\t來制定一套制度可是呢冷冰冰的制度底下再來看具體的數字你會發現我們這些努力啊不能我就不想去打擊可是我就覺得這個成效差距太大\n842165\t842185\t韓國瑜\n857662\t882952\t是特別針對的趕快教育入園的一些處遇提出的看法我這不再贅述了但是從整個少年少事法的一個發動的開始問題你就慢慢去現行少五會的權責跟一路陪伴青年調查程序到保護程序的保護官這個其實本席認為真的是重中之重不能因為說人力的問題啊到最後我們制度的設計本來是分流然後到最後\n883712\t911878\t就變成說整個功能就失掉了不要忘記了你看我們第一條就講說為了保障少年健全的自我成長調整跟成長環境並矯制他的一個性格這一步其實是很多前輩慢慢跟社會溝通才建構出來的一個制度那從對孩子的規訓跟懲罰逐漸去落實教育代替刑法的保護的一個精神這條路本來就會非常\n914256\t941828\t中間我們也看到很多破口我們也希望說當然不是只有法務部跟司法院這邊這兩個單位就有辦法單獨去做到可以從不同的環境、處域跟社福的一個接軌都可以進一步做完善我們要說的就是都大人我們都能創建大人創造社會環境努力的空間還是很大法務部還有司法院這個地方我們也期待真的是\n942848\t969967\t真的這個部分要努力啦我光看到這個數字喔尤其是法務部跟司法院這樣的一個數字我兩張圖表讓你看你們就我就感受到你們的對數字這樣的一個看法還對整個狀況的一個掌握真的有落差但是我覺得我覺得你們是無感的因為你們看的是制度立法院看的是說這些冷冰冰的數字裡面我們怎麼樣去突破讓這個制度去發揮具體落實加油好不好好 謝謝謝謝總委員\n","txt":"謝謝。謝謝張偉。有請我們司法院吳秘書長。麻煩秘書長。法務部部長先生。他到11點才會來。那個次長。次長。麻煩次長。\n委員好秘書長還有市長還有各位列席的官員大家早我先來給兩位看兩張圖表就是說從那個圖表秀一下\n我們法務部司法官學任執行中的中華民國111年犯罪狀況的分析這兩張表近10年少年犯罪嫌疑人數最多在102年12,038人最少就是107年的8,893但近3年從109年的\n1萬226人逐年減少到111年9554也就是說看起來其實是持平請問我們司法院看起來我國今年少年的處罰人數將到底是上升還是下降\n你看司法院的連司法院裡面\n你們的官網裡面是這樣講近10年來這個少年就是12歲以上未滿18歲調查事件呈現這個整個件數下滑你說你這個看起來就很明顯跟法務部的報告就有落差啦所以我要請教司法院秘書長就是說你可不可以解釋一下你網上上次調查事件的定義是怎麼樣那我國少年處罰情況到底你們是上升還是下降\n你們這個差距很大\n你當然是有類型化我當然懂你的意思是 各位委員報告我們的調查事件呢因為我們的案源呢其實來自於三種一種大部分都是警察局對於少年如果有觸法或者是他有曝險那大概現在曝險大概會先送少府會所以會送法院呢大概現在大概就是我們的觸法案件進來之後我們就會分少調所以這裡的調查案件是指少年12歲到18歲以下的這個少年觸犯刑法法律的事件這是我們的少年調查事件\n是啦 我的意思就是說另外一種是檢察官那另外其他的還有不論任何人都可以向法院報告我以下要提的就是說其實我感受到我們司法院這邊跟法務部這個地方你們對整個數字裡面這樣的一個掌握其實在我看起來是有很大的一個落差啦我看起來是很大落差但我想最主要啊國人最關心的大家也最痛恨的這幾年政府最想解決的\n就是這個少年的一個犯罪那大家最討厭的是什麼我看接下來打詐司法這個草野大家其實大家都有共識大家也非常的一個痛恨只是這個手段怎麼樣在通過法制化以後讓提供給我們這個整個司法單位有更好的一個利器事實上\n一個詐騙集團裡面一個很明顯的一個特徵就是說他很喜歡找年輕人當車手反正被抓了向上去溯源青少年的刑責是最低的所以這個其實少年處罰的人數近十年你說沒有特別的一個漲幅我相信\n我也願意相信從數字裡面來看可是呢這個沒有特別的漲幅就像剛剛你提到的處罰的類型有所差別原本從竊盜人數最大宗到2021年開始變成詐欺人數最多但我要提出一點\n我們政府必須要去反省的一個地方就是說我們去跟別的國家做比較你去跟鄰國的日本做比較的話日本從2003年以後日本的少年犯罪率跟犯罪人數一直處於穩定的下降的一個趨勢以2022年的為例他少年刑事人口犯罪的10萬人裡面是193.3人\n臺灣2000同年2022年來做比較的話我們是每10萬人口裡面是800人日本193.3我們800\n秘書長這個是很恐怖的你去看其他的國家台灣少年處罰人數這麼高這個看起來是很少見你看美國有時候我們都認為他治安不太好了美國司法部的一個統計美國是10萬名裡面10到17歲的少年被逮捕率近10年他減少了57%\n他降低了57%英國的狀況也是如此那10到17歲的少年逮捕率從2011年從20萬降到2021年5萬減幅75%所以我要請教法務部的就是說為什麼我們台灣少年處罰事件這麼的高我們沒有辦法去有效的降低是不是我們整個制度的一個設計上或者整個社會安全網上有哪一些我們需要再改善的地方\n青少年犯罪那是多面向的 絕對不是只有法律那當然 社會、經濟、家庭這些都是報告委員 那打詐是法是其實是我們在防止這個詐騙是一個很重要的利器那從源頭去管制去克服 會時的案件下降\n那我們今年從1月到4月統計其實我們的詐欺的案件是下滑了已經有初步的透過各部會的合作其實我們已經看下法已經有百分之十幾的成績出來了那如果打詐事法經過大會再全力的支持我們我們這個法律制定好了以後相關部會的執法再制定出來會再更進一步的有效的打擊這些詐騙集團那這個源頭管制好了以後\n昨天我陪了卓院長去看韓院長\n打炸司法行政院也弄出來了我相信朝野這個部分其實其意也非常小我們都要好好的去檢驗提供給我們司法部門這樣的一個武器以後接下來的人數整個犯罪率尤其是少年犯罪會不會去做一個降低我現在針對的部分其實就是所謂的少年就是少年那我會特別有感就是這個地方\n我沒有問題出在哪裡我們去跟別的國家比較人家是降低那麼多你說我們都知道少年少事法裡面針對暴險少年的保護事件跟處罰少年的刑事案件裡面提供他們不同的一個處遇用這樣的一個分流涉及到兩個重要的職務去做一個串聯\n我看就是一個少年調查官跟少年保護官第一個他們肩負一個調查收集少年的一個資料你說開庭前交由法官去參考一個執行保護處分類似社會工作者這樣的一個角色來協助監督少年執行法院所裁定的一個處分這兩個看起來明確定位的一個工作其實我本期時間比較少不然我是發現其實很大的一個問題\n這個制度從原來的少年關護人演變來從少年關護人去演變過來到了我們1997年去修法以後把調查跟保護分開實務上你去看我從那個高雄的少年跟家事法院裡面來看運作上你倒就是變成把兩個又變成合併了\n您可變合併了,聯名司長,變合併了合併以後就是說,你說這調查官同時也是一個保護官我看起來就覺得怪怪的\n比說我看就怪怪的你知道嗎就是說作為調查官你本來程序上你會保持客觀調查程序啟動以後發現少年可能跟有其他符合處罰的要件的一個事情理論上你調查官馬上要去告知那等於說他是一個監督、觀察、提交重要證據給法官的人那如果你就把這個調查官跟調查跟保護又把它合併在一起的話\n有時候如果是我的話我發現一個新式犯罪的事實我調查右肩保護官我還要懲報嗎\n這簡直是一個兩難你反而沒有辦法讓保護官原本要跟少年取得互信這樣的一個基礎我認為你這個會打上一個大問號所以我請教秘書長就是說你像現在司法院目前當初利益良善的調查跟保護你把它分離的制度你這樣要怎麼具體落實也沒有辦法去改善這個像第一線這樣實務的一個方式\n我強調的是風險我們的調查官跟保護官從1997年開始少子法大修法之後他其實是跟關護人就是最早是少年關護人後來才有成關關護人其實主要是做保護的部分\n但少年法庭的調查官他其實要去調查少年為什麼會去竊盜為什麼會去擔任車手背後的原因比如他的家庭功能、他的教育功能到底有什麼問題所以啊 調查跟保護後來監理的原因主要是人力的問題就我知道啦 人家在本地分離你跟河流還要變成合併你這個角色\n會不會有衝突?\n問題出在哪裡你們知道嗎制度設計冷冰冰啊真正在落實的時候為什麼沒有你去跟別的國家做比較\n我就看這個數字啊,差距太大。我們自己做筆稿,我們那個數字呈現的下降趨勢其實是很急,有,有下降,但是那個速度是很慢的啦。你反觀你去跟隔壁的日本,甚至我們認為說整個犯罪率很高的美國去做比較的話,我們也輸人添添嘛。那一項很多制度的一個設計,我會覺得很多人在努力,我都知道。\n不想去打擊可是很多制度的涉及這是一種撩背一格而已啊你像譬如說你們現在少舞會本身的組織也很微妙啊那個地方縣市首長擔任主委委員這樣警察跟社工人員一起來進行針對這些普遣少年的輔導跟改善他們面對的都可能就是有一些譬如說施打毒品啊或有槍砲的人啊準備要砍人或做壞事的這一些這些人真的有心還真的有在去落實我們制度設計這個崗位\n我做館長、我做企長,我自己的事就不去,我跟你們在一起我去跟你們煎菜一個月而已,我去跟你們走一個月而已當然也有鼓勵的性質,不能說沒有啦所以這個就非常奇怪啦那你本身啦,我再看啦第三個問題我要請教一下,部長,我要請市長,我要叫到你就念我先\n這個少輔會我們現在少年輔導委員會先行以後我們就試圖讓這些少輔會有更多的職能任務變多但就像司法院講的人力也沒有變多那這些組織又這麼的鬆散地方各局處參與的部分實際上到底有沒有任何去統籌跟規劃你們有沒有碰到什麼樣的一個困境我們從去年轟動全台的那種新北國中少年吃那個台灣刀\n把人殺害的案例就可以看到了這個少年他去過了關務所如果說少年保護官的能量是足夠你持續去做一個追蹤配合當地的少府積極去介入個案的話像這些悲劇我都認為說都其實都是可以減緩的啦都是可以減緩的啦所以我剛剛為什麼會講到說你們談出來的司法人就是常常會這樣法律人就常常這樣會講出一道制度\n來制定一套制度可是呢冷冰冰的制度底下再來看具體的數字你會發現我們這些努力啊不能我就不想去打擊可是我就覺得這個成效差距太大\n韓國瑜\n是特別針對的趕快教育入園的一些處遇提出的看法我這不再贅述了但是從整個少年少事法的一個發動的開始問題你就慢慢去現行少五會的權責跟一路陪伴青年調查程序到保護程序的保護官這個其實本席認為真的是重中之重不能因為說人力的問題啊到最後我們制度的設計本來是分流然後到最後\n就變成說整個功能就失掉了不要忘記了你看我們第一條就講說為了保障少年健全的自我成長調整跟成長環境並矯制他的一個性格這一步其實是很多前輩慢慢跟社會溝通才建構出來的一個制度那從對孩子的規訓跟懲罰逐漸去落實教育代替刑法的保護的一個精神這條路本來就會非常\n中間我們也看到很多破口我們也希望說當然不是只有法務部跟司法院這邊這兩個單位就有辦法單獨去做到可以從不同的環境、處域跟社福的一個接軌都可以進一步做完善我們要說的就是都大人我們都能創建大人創造社會環境努力的空間還是很大法務部還有司法院這個地方我們也期待真的是\n真的這個部分要努力啦我光看到這個數字喔尤其是法務部跟司法院這樣的一個數字我兩張圖表讓你看你們就我就感受到你們的對數字這樣的一個看法還對整個狀況的一個掌握真的有落差但是我覺得我覺得你們是無感的因為你們看的是制度立法院看的是說這些冷冰冰的數字裡面我們怎麼樣去突破讓這個制度去發揮具體落實加油好不好好 謝謝謝謝總委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.150\n謝 謝 。 謝 謝 張 偉 。 有 請 我 們 司 法 院 吳 秘 書 長 。 麻 煩 秘 書 長 。 法 務 部 部 長 先 生 。 他 到 1 1 點 才 會 來 。 那 個 次 長 。 次 長 。 麻 煩 次 長 。\n\n00:36.939 --> 00:51.841\n委 員 好 秘 書 長 還 有 市 長 還 有 各 位 列 席 的 官 員 大 家 早 我 先 來 給 兩 位 看 兩 張 圖 表 就 是 說 從 那 個 圖 表 秀 一 下\n\n00:53.491 --> 01:09.623\n我 們 法 務 部 司 法 官 學 任 執 行 中 的 中 華 民 國 1 1 1 年 犯 罪 狀 況 的 分 析 這 兩 張 表 近 1 0 年 少 年 犯 罪 嫌 疑 人 數 最 多 在 1 0 2 年 1 2 , 0 3 8 人 最 少 就 是 1 0 7 年 的 8 , 8 9 3 但 近 3 年 從 1 0 9 年 的\n\n01:23.129 --> 01:45.624\n1 萬 2 2 6 人 逐 年 減 少 到 1 1 1 年 9 5 5 4 也 就 是 說 看 起 來 其 實 是 持 平 請 問 我 們 司 法 院 看 起 來 我 國 今 年 少 年 的 處 罰 人 數 將 到 底 是 上 升 還 是 下 降\n\n01:49.079 --> 01:50.620\n你 看 司 法 院 的 連 司 法 院 裡 面\n\n02:06.670 --> 02:34.230\n你 們 的 官 網 裡 面 是 這 樣 講 近 1 0 年 來 這 個 少 年 就 是 1 2 歲 以 上 未 滿 1 8 歲 調 查 事 件 呈 現 這 個 整 個 件 數 下 滑 你 說 你 這 個 看 起 來 就 很 明 顯 跟 法 務 部 的 報 告 就 有 落 差 啦 所 以 我 要 請 教 司 法 院 秘 書 長 就 是 說 你 可 不 可 以 解 釋 一 下 你 網 上 上 次 調 查 事 件 的 定 義 是 怎 麼 樣 那 我 國 少 年 處 罰 情 況 到 底 你 們 是 上 升 還 是 下 降\n\n02:35.731 --> 02:36.336\n你 們 這 個 差 距 很 大\n\n02:37.970 --> 03:07.142\n你 當 然 是 有 類 型 化 我 當 然 懂 你 的 意 思 是 各 位 委 員 報 告 我 們 的 調 查 事 件 呢 因 為 我 們 的 案 源 呢 其 實 來 自 於 三 種 一 種 大 部 分 都 是 警 察 局 對 於 少 年 如 果 有 觸 法 或 者 是 他 有 曝 險 那 大 概 現 在 曝 險 大 概 會 先 送 少 府 會 所 以 會 送 法 院 呢 大 概 現 在 大 概 就 是 我 們 的 觸 法 案 件 進 來 之 後 我 們 就 會 分 少 調 所 以 這 裡 的 調 查 案 件 是 指 少 年 1 2 歲 到 1 8 歲 以 下 的 這 個 少 年 觸 犯 刑 法 法 律 的 事 件 這 是 我 們 的 少 年 調 查 事 件\n\n03:07.722 --> 03:33.405\n是 啦 我 的 意 思 就 是 說 另 外 一 種 是 檢 察 官 那 另 外 其 他 的 還 有 不 論 任 何 人 都 可 以 向 法 院 報 告 我 以 下 要 提 的 就 是 說 其 實 我 感 受 到 我 們 司 法 院 這 邊 跟 法 務 部 這 個 地 方 你 們 對 整 個 數 字 裡 面 這 樣 的 一 個 掌 握 其 實 在 我 看 起 來 是 有 很 大 的 一 個 落 差 啦 我 看 起 來 是 很 大 落 差 但 我 想 最 主 要 啊 國 人 最 關 心 的 大 家 也 最 痛 恨 的 這 幾 年 政 府 最 想 解 決 的\n\n03:34.446 --> 03:54.428\n就 是 這 個 少 年 的 一 個 犯 罪 那 大 家 最 討 厭 的 是 什 麼 我 看 接 下 來 打 詐 司 法 這 個 草 野 大 家 其 實 大 家 都 有 共 識 大 家 也 非 常 的 一 個 痛 恨 只 是 這 個 手 段 怎 麼 樣 在 通 過 法 制 化 以 後 讓 提 供 給 我 們 這 個 整 個 司 法 單 位 有 更 好 的 一 個 利 器 事 實 上\n\n03:55.749 --> 04:12.614\n一 個 詐 騙 集 團 裡 面 一 個 很 明 顯 的 一 個 特 徵 就 是 說 他 很 喜 歡 找 年 輕 人 當 車 手 反 正 被 抓 了 向 上 去 溯 源 青 少 年 的 刑 責 是 最 低 的 所 以 這 個 其 實 少 年 處 罰 的 人 數 近 十 年 你 說 沒 有 特 別 的 一 個 漲 幅 我 相 信\n\n04:13.539 --> 04:28.278\n我 也 願 意 相 信 從 數 字 裡 面 來 看 可 是 呢 這 個 沒 有 特 別 的 漲 幅 就 像 剛 剛 你 提 到 的 處 罰 的 類 型 有 所 差 別 原 本 從 竊 盜 人 數 最 大 宗 到 2 0 2 1 年 開 始 變 成 詐 欺 人 數 最 多 但 我 要 提 出 一 點\n\n04:29.349 --> 04:51.499\n我 們 政 府 必 須 要 去 反 省 的 一 個 地 方 就 是 說 我 們 去 跟 別 的 國 家 做 比 較 你 去 跟 鄰 國 的 日 本 做 比 較 的 話 日 本 從 2 0 0 3 年 以 後 日 本 的 少 年 犯 罪 率 跟 犯 罪 人 數 一 直 處 於 穩 定 的 下 降 的 一 個 趨 勢 以 2 0 2 2 年 的 為 例 他 少 年 刑 事 人 口 犯 罪 的 1 0 萬 人 裡 面 是 1 9 3 . 3 人\n\n04:56.542 --> 05:01.726\n臺 灣 2 0 0 0 同 年 2 0 2 2 年 來 做 比 較 的 話 我 們 是 每 1 0 萬 人 口 裡 面 是 8 0 0 人 日 本 1 9 3 . 3 我 們 8 0 0\n\n05:08.373 --> 05:27.823\n秘 書 長 這 個 是 很 恐 怖 的 你 去 看 其 他 的 國 家 台 灣 少 年 處 罰 人 數 這 麼 高 這 個 看 起 來 是 很 少 見 你 看 美 國 有 時 候 我 們 都 認 為 他 治 安 不 太 好 了 美 國 司 法 部 的 一 個 統 計 美 國 是 1 0 萬 名 裡 面 1 0 到 1 7 歲 的 少 年 被 逮 捕 率 近 1 0 年 他 減 少 了 5 7 %\n\n05:29.810 --> 05:58.941\n他 降 低 了 5 7 % 英 國 的 狀 況 也 是 如 此 那 1 0 到 1 7 歲 的 少 年 逮 捕 率 從 2 0 1 1 年 從 2 0 萬 降 到 2 0 2 1 年 5 萬 減 幅 7 5 % 所 以 我 要 請 教 法 務 部 的 就 是 說 為 什 麼 我 們 台 灣 少 年 處 罰 事 件 這 麼 的 高 我 們 沒 有 辦 法 去 有 效 的 降 低 是 不 是 我 們 整 個 制 度 的 一 個 設 計 上 或 者 整 個 社 會 安 全 網 上 有 哪 一 些 我 們 需 要 再 改 善 的 地 方\n\n05:59.980 --> 06:23.462\n青 少 年 犯 罪 那 是 多 面 向 的 絕 對 不 是 只 有 法 律 那 當 然 社 會 、 經 濟 、 家 庭 這 些 都 是 報 告 委 員 那 打 詐 是 法 是 其 實 是 我 們 在 防 止 這 個 詐 騙 是 一 個 很 重 要 的 利 器 那 從 源 頭 去 管 制 去 克 服 會 時 的 案 件 下 降\n\n06:23.982 --> 06:51.709\n那 我 們 今 年 從 1 月 到 4 月 統 計 其 實 我 們 的 詐 欺 的 案 件 是 下 滑 了 已 經 有 初 步 的 透 過 各 部 會 的 合 作 其 實 我 們 已 經 看 下 法 已 經 有 百 分 之 十 幾 的 成 績 出 來 了 那 如 果 打 詐 事 法 經 過 大 會 再 全 力 的 支 持 我 們 我 們 這 個 法 律 制 定 好 了 以 後 相 關 部 會 的 執 法 再 制 定 出 來 會 再 更 進 一 步 的 有 效 的 打 擊 這 些 詐 騙 集 團 那 這 個 源 頭 管 制 好 了 以 後\n\n06:52.609 --> 06:53.930\n昨 天 我 陪 了 卓 院 長 去 看 韓 院 長\n\n07:08.762 --> 07:33.247\n打 炸 司 法 行 政 院 也 弄 出 來 了 我 相 信 朝 野 這 個 部 分 其 實 其 意 也 非 常 小 我 們 都 要 好 好 的 去 檢 驗 提 供 給 我 們 司 法 部 門 這 樣 的 一 個 武 器 以 後 接 下 來 的 人 數 整 個 犯 罪 率 尤 其 是 少 年 犯 罪 會 不 會 去 做 一 個 降 低 我 現 在 針 對 的 部 分 其 實 就 是 所 謂 的 少 年 就 是 少 年 那 我 會 特 別 有 感 就 是 這 個 地 方\n\n07:34.963 --> 07:51.883\n我 沒 有 問 題 出 在 哪 裡 我 們 去 跟 別 的 國 家 比 較 人 家 是 降 低 那 麼 多 你 說 我 們 都 知 道 少 年 少 事 法 裡 面 針 對 暴 險 少 年 的 保 護 事 件 跟 處 罰 少 年 的 刑 事 案 件 裡 面 提 供 他 們 不 同 的 一 個 處 遇 用 這 樣 的 一 個 分 流 涉 及 到 兩 個 重 要 的 職 務 去 做 一 個 串 聯\n\n07:52.904 --> 08:10.993\n我 看 就 是 一 個 少 年 調 查 官 跟 少 年 保 護 官 第 一 個 他 們 肩 負 一 個 調 查 收 集 少 年 的 一 個 資 料 你 說 開 庭 前 交 由 法 官 去 參 考 一 個 執 行 保 護 處 分 類 似 社 會 工 作 者 這 樣 的 一 個 角 色 來 協 助 監 督 少 年 執 行 法 院 所 裁 定 的 一 個 處 分 這 兩 個 看 起 來 明 確 定 位 的 一 個 工 作 其 實 我 本 期 時 間 比 較 少 不 然 我 是 發 現 其 實 很 大 的 一 個 問 題\n\n08:19.977 --> 08:39.566\n這 個 制 度 從 原 來 的 少 年 關 護 人 演 變 來 從 少 年 關 護 人 去 演 變 過 來 到 了 我 們 1 9 9 7 年 去 修 法 以 後 把 調 查 跟 保 護 分 開 實 務 上 你 去 看 我 從 那 個 高 雄 的 少 年 跟 家 事 法 院 裡 面 來 看 運 作 上 你 倒 就 是 變 成 把 兩 個 又 變 成 合 併 了\n\n08:41.687 --> 08:49.654\n您 可 變 合 併 了 , 聯 名 司 長 , 變 合 併 了 合 併 以 後 就 是 說 , 你 說 這 調 查 官 同 時 也 是 一 個 保 護 官 我 看 起 來 就 覺 得 怪 怪 的\n\n08:51.035 --> 09:13.955\n比 說 我 看 就 怪 怪 的 你 知 道 嗎 就 是 說 作 為 調 查 官 你 本 來 程 序 上 你 會 保 持 客 觀 調 查 程 序 啟 動 以 後 發 現 少 年 可 能 跟 有 其 他 符 合 處 罰 的 要 件 的 一 個 事 情 理 論 上 你 調 查 官 馬 上 要 去 告 知 那 等 於 說 他 是 一 個 監 督 、 觀 察 、 提 交 重 要 證 據 給 法 官 的 人 那 如 果 你 就 把 這 個 調 查 官 跟 調 查 跟 保 護 又 把 它 合 併 在 一 起 的 話\n\n09:15.316 --> 09:22.753\n有 時 候 如 果 是 我 的 話 我 發 現 一 個 新 式 犯 罪 的 事 實 我 調 查 右 肩 保 護 官 我 還 要 懲 報 嗎\n\n09:24.962 --> 09:48.665\n這 簡 直 是 一 個 兩 難 你 反 而 沒 有 辦 法 讓 保 護 官 原 本 要 跟 少 年 取 得 互 信 這 樣 的 一 個 基 礎 我 認 為 你 這 個 會 打 上 一 個 大 問 號 所 以 我 請 教 秘 書 長 就 是 說 你 像 現 在 司 法 院 目 前 當 初 利 益 良 善 的 調 查 跟 保 護 你 把 它 分 離 的 制 度 你 這 樣 要 怎 麼 具 體 落 實 也 沒 有 辦 法 去 改 善 這 個 像 第 一 線 這 樣 實 務 的 一 個 方 式\n\n09:51.293 --> 10:12.766\n我 強 調 的 是 風 險 我 們 的 調 查 官 跟 保 護 官 從 1 9 9 7 年 開 始 少 子 法 大 修 法 之 後 他 其 實 是 跟 關 護 人 就 是 最 早 是 少 年 關 護 人 後 來 才 有 成 關 關 護 人 其 實 主 要 是 做 保 護 的 部 分\n\n10:13.306 --> 10:30.873\n但 少 年 法 庭 的 調 查 官 他 其 實 要 去 調 查 少 年 為 什 麼 會 去 竊 盜 為 什 麼 會 去 擔 任 車 手 背 後 的 原 因 比 如 他 的 家 庭 功 能 、 他 的 教 育 功 能 到 底 有 什 麼 問 題 所 以 啊 調 查 跟 保 護 後 來 監 理 的 原 因 主 要 是 人 力 的 問 題 就 我 知 道 啦 人 家 在 本 地 分 離 你 跟 河 流 還 要 變 成 合 併 你 這 個 角 色\n\n10:32.654 --> 10:32.754\n會 不 會 有 衝 突 ?\n\n10:54.270 --> 10:58.312\n問 題 出 在 哪 裡 你 們 知 道 嗎 制 度 設 計 冷 冰 冰 啊 真 正 在 落 實 的 時 候 為 什 麼 沒 有 你 去 跟 別 的 國 家 做 比 較\n\n11:22.588 --> 11:50.288\n我 就 看 這 個 數 字 啊 , 差 距 太 大 。 我 們 自 己 做 筆 稿 , 我 們 那 個 數 字 呈 現 的 下 降 趨 勢 其 實 是 很 急 , 有 , 有 下 降 , 但 是 那 個 速 度 是 很 慢 的 啦 。 你 反 觀 你 去 跟 隔 壁 的 日 本 , 甚 至 我 們 認 為 說 整 個 犯 罪 率 很 高 的 美 國 去 做 比 較 的 話 , 我 們 也 輸 人 添 添 嘛 。 那 一 項 很 多 制 度 的 一 個 設 計 , 我 會 覺 得 很 多 人 在 努 力 , 我 都 知 道 。\n\n11:51.189 --> 12:14.039\n不 想 去 打 擊 可 是 很 多 制 度 的 涉 及 這 是 一 種 撩 背 一 格 而 已 啊 你 像 譬 如 說 你 們 現 在 少 舞 會 本 身 的 組 織 也 很 微 妙 啊 那 個 地 方 縣 市 首 長 擔 任 主 委 委 員 這 樣 警 察 跟 社 工 人 員 一 起 來 進 行 針 對 這 些 普 遣 少 年 的 輔 導 跟 改 善 他 們 面 對 的 都 可 能 就 是 有 一 些 譬 如 說 施 打 毒 品 啊 或 有 槍 砲 的 人 啊 準 備 要 砍 人 或 做 壞 事 的 這 一 些 這 些 人 真 的 有 心 還 真 的 有 在 去 落 實 我 們 制 度 設 計 這 個 崗 位\n\n12:20.285 --> 12:43.853\n我 做 館 長 、 我 做 企 長 , 我 自 己 的 事 就 不 去 , 我 跟 你 們 在 一 起 我 去 跟 你 們 煎 菜 一 個 月 而 已 , 我 去 跟 你 們 走 一 個 月 而 已 當 然 也 有 鼓 勵 的 性 質 , 不 能 說 沒 有 啦 所 以 這 個 就 非 常 奇 怪 啦 那 你 本 身 啦 , 我 再 看 啦 第 三 個 問 題 我 要 請 教 一 下 , 部 長 , 我 要 請 市 長 , 我 要 叫 到 你 就 念 我 先\n\n12:46.415 --> 13:14.507\n這 個 少 輔 會 我 們 現 在 少 年 輔 導 委 員 會 先 行 以 後 我 們 就 試 圖 讓 這 些 少 輔 會 有 更 多 的 職 能 任 務 變 多 但 就 像 司 法 院 講 的 人 力 也 沒 有 變 多 那 這 些 組 織 又 這 麼 的 鬆 散 地 方 各 局 處 參 與 的 部 分 實 際 上 到 底 有 沒 有 任 何 去 統 籌 跟 規 劃 你 們 有 沒 有 碰 到 什 麼 樣 的 一 個 困 境 我 們 從 去 年 轟 動 全 台 的 那 種 新 北 國 中 少 年 吃 那 個 台 灣 刀\n\n13:15.547 --> 13:44.384\n把 人 殺 害 的 案 例 就 可 以 看 到 了 這 個 少 年 他 去 過 了 關 務 所 如 果 說 少 年 保 護 官 的 能 量 是 足 夠 你 持 續 去 做 一 個 追 蹤 配 合 當 地 的 少 府 積 極 去 介 入 個 案 的 話 像 這 些 悲 劇 我 都 認 為 說 都 其 實 都 是 可 以 減 緩 的 啦 都 是 可 以 減 緩 的 啦 所 以 我 剛 剛 為 什 麼 會 講 到 說 你 們 談 出 來 的 司 法 人 就 是 常 常 會 這 樣 法 律 人 就 常 常 這 樣 會 講 出 一 道 制 度\n\n13:45.649 --> 14:00.950\n來 制 定 一 套 制 度 可 是 呢 冷 冰 冰 的 制 度 底 下 再 來 看 具 體 的 數 字 你 會 發 現 我 們 這 些 努 力 啊 不 能 我 就 不 想 去 打 擊 可 是 我 就 覺 得 這 個 成 效 差 距 太 大\n\n14:02.165 --> 14:02.185\n韓 國 瑜\n\n14:17.662 --> 14:42.952\n是 特 別 針 對 的 趕 快 教 育 入 園 的 一 些 處 遇 提 出 的 看 法 我 這 不 再 贅 述 了 但 是 從 整 個 少 年 少 事 法 的 一 個 發 動 的 開 始 問 題 你 就 慢 慢 去 現 行 少 五 會 的 權 責 跟 一 路 陪 伴 青 年 調 查 程 序 到 保 護 程 序 的 保 護 官 這 個 其 實 本 席 認 為 真 的 是 重 中 之 重 不 能 因 為 說 人 力 的 問 題 啊 到 最 後 我 們 制 度 的 設 計 本 來 是 分 流 然 後 到 最 後\n\n14:43.712 --> 15:11.878\n就 變 成 說 整 個 功 能 就 失 掉 了 不 要 忘 記 了 你 看 我 們 第 一 條 就 講 說 為 了 保 障 少 年 健 全 的 自 我 成 長 調 整 跟 成 長 環 境 並 矯 制 他 的 一 個 性 格 這 一 步 其 實 是 很 多 前 輩 慢 慢 跟 社 會 溝 通 才 建 構 出 來 的 一 個 制 度 那 從 對 孩 子 的 規 訓 跟 懲 罰 逐 漸 去 落 實 教 育 代 替 刑 法 的 保 護 的 一 個 精 神 這 條 路 本 來 就 會 非 常\n\n15:14.256 --> 15:41.828\n中 間 我 們 也 看 到 很 多 破 口 我 們 也 希 望 說 當 然 不 是 只 有 法 務 部 跟 司 法 院 這 邊 這 兩 個 單 位 就 有 辦 法 單 獨 去 做 到 可 以 從 不 同 的 環 境 、 處 域 跟 社 福 的 一 個 接 軌 都 可 以 進 一 步 做 完 善 我 們 要 說 的 就 是 都 大 人 我 們 都 能 創 建 大 人 創 造 社 會 環 境 努 力 的 空 間 還 是 很 大 法 務 部 還 有 司 法 院 這 個 地 方 我 們 也 期 待 真 的 是\n\n15:42.848 --> 16:09.967\n真 的 這 個 部 分 要 努 力 啦 我 光 看 到 這 個 數 字 喔 尤 其 是 法 務 部 跟 司 法 院 這 樣 的 一 個 數 字 我 兩 張 圖 表 讓 你 看 你 們 就 我 就 感 受 到 你 們 的 對 數 字 這 樣 的 一 個 看 法 還 對 整 個 狀 況 的 一 個 掌 握 真 的 有 落 差 但 是 我 覺 得 我 覺 得 你 們 是 無 感 的 因 為 你 們 看 的 是 制 度 立 法 院 看 的 是 說 這 些 冷 冰 冰 的 數 字 裡 面 我 們 怎 麼 樣 去 突 破 讓 這 個 制 度 去 發 揮 具 體 落 實 加 油 好 不 好 好 謝 謝 謝 謝 總 委 員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.15,"text":"謝謝。謝謝張偉。有請我們司法院吳秘書長。麻煩秘書長。法務部部長先生。他到11點才會來。那個次長。次長。麻煩次長。"},{"start":36.939,"end":51.841,"text":"委員好秘書長還有市長還有各位列席的官員大家早我先來給兩位看兩張圖表就是說從那個圖表秀一下"},{"start":53.491,"end":69.623,"text":"我們法務部司法官學任執行中的中華民國111年犯罪狀況的分析這兩張表近10年少年犯罪嫌疑人數最多在102年12,038人最少就是107年的8,893但近3年從109年的"},{"start":83.129,"end":105.624,"text":"1萬226人逐年減少到111年9554也就是說看起來其實是持平請問我們司法院看起來我國今年少年的處罰人數將到底是上升還是下降"},{"start":109.079,"end":110.62,"text":"你看司法院的連司法院裡面"},{"start":126.67,"end":154.23,"text":"你們的官網裡面是這樣講近10年來這個少年就是12歲以上未滿18歲調查事件呈現這個整個件數下滑你說你這個看起來就很明顯跟法務部的報告就有落差啦所以我要請教司法院秘書長就是說你可不可以解釋一下你網上上次調查事件的定義是怎麼樣那我國少年處罰情況到底你們是上升還是下降"},{"start":155.731,"end":156.336,"text":"你們這個差距很大"},{"start":157.97,"end":187.142,"text":"你當然是有類型化我當然懂你的意思是 各位委員報告我們的調查事件呢因為我們的案源呢其實來自於三種一種大部分都是警察局對於少年如果有觸法或者是他有曝險那大概現在曝險大概會先送少府會所以會送法院呢大概現在大概就是我們的觸法案件進來之後我們就會分少調所以這裡的調查案件是指少年12歲到18歲以下的這個少年觸犯刑法法律的事件這是我們的少年調查事件"},{"start":187.722,"end":213.405,"text":"是啦 我的意思就是說另外一種是檢察官那另外其他的還有不論任何人都可以向法院報告我以下要提的就是說其實我感受到我們司法院這邊跟法務部這個地方你們對整個數字裡面這樣的一個掌握其實在我看起來是有很大的一個落差啦我看起來是很大落差但我想最主要啊國人最關心的大家也最痛恨的這幾年政府最想解決的"},{"start":214.446,"end":234.428,"text":"就是這個少年的一個犯罪那大家最討厭的是什麼我看接下來打詐司法這個草野大家其實大家都有共識大家也非常的一個痛恨只是這個手段怎麼樣在通過法制化以後讓提供給我們這個整個司法單位有更好的一個利器事實上"},{"start":235.749,"end":252.614,"text":"一個詐騙集團裡面一個很明顯的一個特徵就是說他很喜歡找年輕人當車手反正被抓了向上去溯源青少年的刑責是最低的所以這個其實少年處罰的人數近十年你說沒有特別的一個漲幅我相信"},{"start":253.539,"end":268.278,"text":"我也願意相信從數字裡面來看可是呢這個沒有特別的漲幅就像剛剛你提到的處罰的類型有所差別原本從竊盜人數最大宗到2021年開始變成詐欺人數最多但我要提出一點"},{"start":269.349,"end":291.499,"text":"我們政府必須要去反省的一個地方就是說我們去跟別的國家做比較你去跟鄰國的日本做比較的話日本從2003年以後日本的少年犯罪率跟犯罪人數一直處於穩定的下降的一個趨勢以2022年的為例他少年刑事人口犯罪的10萬人裡面是193.3人"},{"start":296.542,"end":301.726,"text":"臺灣2000同年2022年來做比較的話我們是每10萬人口裡面是800人日本193.3我們800"},{"start":308.373,"end":327.823,"text":"秘書長這個是很恐怖的你去看其他的國家台灣少年處罰人數這麼高這個看起來是很少見你看美國有時候我們都認為他治安不太好了美國司法部的一個統計美國是10萬名裡面10到17歲的少年被逮捕率近10年他減少了57%"},{"start":329.81,"end":358.941,"text":"他降低了57%英國的狀況也是如此那10到17歲的少年逮捕率從2011年從20萬降到2021年5萬減幅75%所以我要請教法務部的就是說為什麼我們台灣少年處罰事件這麼的高我們沒有辦法去有效的降低是不是我們整個制度的一個設計上或者整個社會安全網上有哪一些我們需要再改善的地方"},{"start":359.98,"end":383.462,"text":"青少年犯罪那是多面向的 絕對不是只有法律那當然 社會、經濟、家庭這些都是報告委員 那打詐是法是其實是我們在防止這個詐騙是一個很重要的利器那從源頭去管制去克服 會時的案件下降"},{"start":383.982,"end":411.709,"text":"那我們今年從1月到4月統計其實我們的詐欺的案件是下滑了已經有初步的透過各部會的合作其實我們已經看下法已經有百分之十幾的成績出來了那如果打詐事法經過大會再全力的支持我們我們這個法律制定好了以後相關部會的執法再制定出來會再更進一步的有效的打擊這些詐騙集團那這個源頭管制好了以後"},{"start":412.609,"end":413.93,"text":"昨天我陪了卓院長去看韓院長"},{"start":428.762,"end":453.247,"text":"打炸司法行政院也弄出來了我相信朝野這個部分其實其意也非常小我們都要好好的去檢驗提供給我們司法部門這樣的一個武器以後接下來的人數整個犯罪率尤其是少年犯罪會不會去做一個降低我現在針對的部分其實就是所謂的少年就是少年那我會特別有感就是這個地方"},{"start":454.963,"end":471.883,"text":"我沒有問題出在哪裡我們去跟別的國家比較人家是降低那麼多你說我們都知道少年少事法裡面針對暴險少年的保護事件跟處罰少年的刑事案件裡面提供他們不同的一個處遇用這樣的一個分流涉及到兩個重要的職務去做一個串聯"},{"start":472.904,"end":490.993,"text":"我看就是一個少年調查官跟少年保護官第一個他們肩負一個調查收集少年的一個資料你說開庭前交由法官去參考一個執行保護處分類似社會工作者這樣的一個角色來協助監督少年執行法院所裁定的一個處分這兩個看起來明確定位的一個工作其實我本期時間比較少不然我是發現其實很大的一個問題"},{"start":499.977,"end":519.566,"text":"這個制度從原來的少年關護人演變來從少年關護人去演變過來到了我們1997年去修法以後把調查跟保護分開實務上你去看我從那個高雄的少年跟家事法院裡面來看運作上你倒就是變成把兩個又變成合併了"},{"start":521.687,"end":529.654,"text":"您可變合併了,聯名司長,變合併了合併以後就是說,你說這調查官同時也是一個保護官我看起來就覺得怪怪的"},{"start":531.035,"end":553.955,"text":"比說我看就怪怪的你知道嗎就是說作為調查官你本來程序上你會保持客觀調查程序啟動以後發現少年可能跟有其他符合處罰的要件的一個事情理論上你調查官馬上要去告知那等於說他是一個監督、觀察、提交重要證據給法官的人那如果你就把這個調查官跟調查跟保護又把它合併在一起的話"},{"start":555.316,"end":562.753,"text":"有時候如果是我的話我發現一個新式犯罪的事實我調查右肩保護官我還要懲報嗎"},{"start":564.962,"end":588.665,"text":"這簡直是一個兩難你反而沒有辦法讓保護官原本要跟少年取得互信這樣的一個基礎我認為你這個會打上一個大問號所以我請教秘書長就是說你像現在司法院目前當初利益良善的調查跟保護你把它分離的制度你這樣要怎麼具體落實也沒有辦法去改善這個像第一線這樣實務的一個方式"},{"start":591.293,"end":612.766,"text":"我強調的是風險我們的調查官跟保護官從1997年開始少子法大修法之後他其實是跟關護人就是最早是少年關護人後來才有成關關護人其實主要是做保護的部分"},{"start":613.306,"end":630.873,"text":"但少年法庭的調查官他其實要去調查少年為什麼會去竊盜為什麼會去擔任車手背後的原因比如他的家庭功能、他的教育功能到底有什麼問題所以啊 調查跟保護後來監理的原因主要是人力的問題就我知道啦 人家在本地分離你跟河流還要變成合併你這個角色"},{"start":632.654,"end":632.754,"text":"會不會有衝突?"},{"start":654.27,"end":658.312,"text":"問題出在哪裡你們知道嗎制度設計冷冰冰啊真正在落實的時候為什麼沒有你去跟別的國家做比較"},{"start":682.588,"end":710.288,"text":"我就看這個數字啊,差距太大。我們自己做筆稿,我們那個數字呈現的下降趨勢其實是很急,有,有下降,但是那個速度是很慢的啦。你反觀你去跟隔壁的日本,甚至我們認為說整個犯罪率很高的美國去做比較的話,我們也輸人添添嘛。那一項很多制度的一個設計,我會覺得很多人在努力,我都知道。"},{"start":711.189,"end":734.039,"text":"不想去打擊可是很多制度的涉及這是一種撩背一格而已啊你像譬如說你們現在少舞會本身的組織也很微妙啊那個地方縣市首長擔任主委委員這樣警察跟社工人員一起來進行針對這些普遣少年的輔導跟改善他們面對的都可能就是有一些譬如說施打毒品啊或有槍砲的人啊準備要砍人或做壞事的這一些這些人真的有心還真的有在去落實我們制度設計這個崗位"},{"start":740.285,"end":763.853,"text":"我做館長、我做企長,我自己的事就不去,我跟你們在一起我去跟你們煎菜一個月而已,我去跟你們走一個月而已當然也有鼓勵的性質,不能說沒有啦所以這個就非常奇怪啦那你本身啦,我再看啦第三個問題我要請教一下,部長,我要請市長,我要叫到你就念我先"},{"start":766.415,"end":794.507,"text":"這個少輔會我們現在少年輔導委員會先行以後我們就試圖讓這些少輔會有更多的職能任務變多但就像司法院講的人力也沒有變多那這些組織又這麼的鬆散地方各局處參與的部分實際上到底有沒有任何去統籌跟規劃你們有沒有碰到什麼樣的一個困境我們從去年轟動全台的那種新北國中少年吃那個台灣刀"},{"start":795.547,"end":824.384,"text":"把人殺害的案例就可以看到了這個少年他去過了關務所如果說少年保護官的能量是足夠你持續去做一個追蹤配合當地的少府積極去介入個案的話像這些悲劇我都認為說都其實都是可以減緩的啦都是可以減緩的啦所以我剛剛為什麼會講到說你們談出來的司法人就是常常會這樣法律人就常常這樣會講出一道制度"},{"start":825.649,"end":840.95,"text":"來制定一套制度可是呢冷冰冰的制度底下再來看具體的數字你會發現我們這些努力啊不能我就不想去打擊可是我就覺得這個成效差距太大"},{"start":842.165,"end":842.185,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":857.662,"end":882.952,"text":"是特別針對的趕快教育入園的一些處遇提出的看法我這不再贅述了但是從整個少年少事法的一個發動的開始問題你就慢慢去現行少五會的權責跟一路陪伴青年調查程序到保護程序的保護官這個其實本席認為真的是重中之重不能因為說人力的問題啊到最後我們制度的設計本來是分流然後到最後"},{"start":883.712,"end":911.878,"text":"就變成說整個功能就失掉了不要忘記了你看我們第一條就講說為了保障少年健全的自我成長調整跟成長環境並矯制他的一個性格這一步其實是很多前輩慢慢跟社會溝通才建構出來的一個制度那從對孩子的規訓跟懲罰逐漸去落實教育代替刑法的保護的一個精神這條路本來就會非常"},{"start":914.256,"end":941.828,"text":"中間我們也看到很多破口我們也希望說當然不是只有法務部跟司法院這邊這兩個單位就有辦法單獨去做到可以從不同的環境、處域跟社福的一個接軌都可以進一步做完善我們要說的就是都大人我們都能創建大人創造社會環境努力的空間還是很大法務部還有司法院這個地方我們也期待真的是"},{"start":942.848,"end":969.967,"text":"真的這個部分要努力啦我光看到這個數字喔尤其是法務部跟司法院這樣的一個數字我兩張圖表讓你看你們就我就感受到你們的對數字這樣的一個看法還對整個狀況的一個掌握真的有落差但是我覺得我覺得你們是無感的因為你們看的是制度立法院看的是說這些冷冰冰的數字裡面我們怎麼樣去突破讓這個制度去發揮具體落實加油好不好好 謝謝謝謝總委員"}]}}}}