{"id":153331,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba9d3b2d3c9d18ba94ea2e07370b40154bbeba37a180c9b1cdd9cc7248204e3c0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:12:04 - 10:19:49","影片長度":"00:07:45","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":465,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:19:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:12:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":412,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時12分）謝謝主席，我們先請衛福部呂次長。次長，先恭喜喔！擔任衛福部的政務次長。今天本席要討論的是老人福利法第二十二條的部分，其實如同剛剛這麼多人的討論，如果單純要來談所謂的青壯世代跟老年人負擔的問題，跟這個世代之間公平的問題的話，如果要把這個話題導到這邊來，我覺得乾脆就廢除老人福利法，因為現行的老人福利法跟各項社會福利制度，每一項基本上都是使用人民的納稅錢，如果要去談這個問題的話，剛剛提到年輕人低薪、房價過高、少子化、未來負擔等等，這個是代表當代政府的無能，但是不能把這個責任苛責、歸咎於我們要去負擔65歲以上長輩的社會福利，這是本席剛剛聽下來先提出來的一個感想。","我要先提為什麼今天會提到第二十二條的修正，老人福利法的第一條提到，為維護老人尊嚴與健康，延緩老人失能，安定老人生活，保障老人權益，增進老人福利，所以訂定了老人福利法。全民健康保險法裡面也提到，為了增進全體國民健康，所以辦理全民健康保險，合併起來看，其實全民健康保險在65歲以上老人的部分，在本席的認知裡面，它應該是整個國家的重大政策才對，次長，你對於這樣的看法覺得怎麼樣？"],["呂次長建德：我非常佩服委員的看法，我也曾經拜讀委員的論文，你的論文主要是做有關中國大陸的城鄉統籌還有醫改，寫得非常非常好。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：我想確實誠如委員所說的，這個部分應該是有關社會保險、社會福利的區分，我想這是非常重要的。社會保險我想還是要界定，就是目前老人福利法有關稅率20%的規定，基本上還是社會保險，針對社會保險，委員在您的論文大作裡面其實也有提到，基本上確實還是要風險分擔，而且是要以量能來負擔，我想這個部分，基本的原則還是要確立。"],["黃委員健豪：我認同這個風險的分擔，這個風險基本上在老人福利法裡面，甚至全民健康保險法，我想它就是為了要去分擔或負擔65歲以上的部分，我們未來如果真的走向高齡化的社會，對於高齡化的國民，我們到底有沒有要用這個政策去照顧他們？當然這是選擇的問題。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["黃委員健豪：我提第二十二條，我當然是選擇我們應該去照顧，那為何會有這個選擇？因為在現行的第二十二條條文裡面，全民健康保險費無力負擔的部分，明定丟給了直轄市、縣（市）主管機關，但是我們再回去看老人福利法的第一條跟全民健康保險法的第一條，它是為了增進全體國民健康，既然是為了增進全體國民健康，理論上它應該是由中央直接來處理，而不是讓各地方政府去處理，因為讓各地方政府去處理就會發生現在的問題，就是各縣市的財政是不一樣的，所以好的地方政府、有錢的地方政府，它的確可以提供比較多補助，但沒有錢的地方政府，它就等於沒有補助，所以這件事情就等於違背了老人福利法，以及全民健康保險法一開始立法的宗旨，這是本席的見解，所以這就是我為什麼要提這一條。","再來，次長，幾個名詞──老人共餐、長青學苑、老人乘車補助、老人裝置活動假牙補助、長期照顧服務、增置老人送餐中心，這些名詞有沒有很熟悉？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我個人非常熟悉。"],["黃委員健豪：是，次長，我為什麼提這個？因為這是您過去在臺中市的德政。"],["呂次長建德：不敢、不敢。"],["黃委員健豪：這個德政怎麼來的？當初是因為臺中市沒有老人健保補助，所以把這個預算挪出來做這件事情，我們今天提這個就是希望中央如果能夠來負擔全民健康保險65歲以上的部分，至於排富條款怎麼定，大家可以再來細究，我是訂20%，但多少才符合公平正義，這個可以再來細究、討論，但是如果中央能夠承擔這一塊的預算、這一塊的福利制度，各地方政府去執行剛剛提到的這幾項地方上的福利政策的時候，它就有更多的餘裕跟經費去執行我們剛剛提到的事情，我想中央、地方大家一起合作，但是資源跟錢怎麼分配也很重要。","剛剛提到像全民健康保險，這個是全體國民都應該享有的一個社會福利或者是社會保險制度，由衛福部來補助或補貼，地方政府就有餘裕的去處理剛剛提到的比如說老人送餐也好，敬老愛心卡也好，讓地方政府能夠以多餘的財政去執行這些事情，我不知道次長對這樣的想法怎麼看待？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，其實最重要的，我還是必須要說，就是委員在您的大作裡面一再提到的，它是屬於社會保險，社會保險裡面當然還是要以量能來貢獻，我想這個是最重要的一個原則。至於委員剛剛說各地方的部分，其實我覺得這確實是非常非常好的idea，可是問題是，您剛剛所說的其實就是現金跟實物給付，那實物給付的部分，我們中央這邊也會持續推動這些相關的政策，其實最重要的還是長照2.0到3.0，再加上combine剛剛委員所說的這些相關的服務，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：因為我剛剛提到的這些服務，執行面就是地方政府在執行，所以如果它能夠把手空出來去執行這些業務的話，我想對地方政府在執行不管長照2.0、3.0也好……直接的執行面既然在地方政府，那這個全民健保的部分讓中央統籌來處理，我想這件事情回到地方在執行的時候，它才有餘裕嘛，不然地方政府的財政就是有限啊，而且直轄市的狀況比較好，當有些地方甚至離島地區的財政沒這麼好的時候，反而會影響到我們要推動所謂長照2.0或3.0的地方政府量能。我的時間已經不夠了，但是我想把我的這個觀點跟次長分享，當然我也希望次長能夠聽進去，因為過去你在臺中市推動的這些德政，也是源自於當初沒有這筆支出。"],["呂次長建德：不敢、不敢。"],["黃委員健豪：對地方政府來講，它多了一筆龐大的社會福利，長照、老人福利等等的經費，它能夠來執行這些事情，我想未來也會遇到這個問題，當然如果衛福部要把所有的責任擔在身上，我也沒有意見，我是樂觀其成，但是我今天提到的是，既然執行面是在地方政府，如果在這個執行面上是由地方政府來承擔的話，那在財務面上，如果能夠讓中央、讓衛福部能夠幫地方政府減輕這個財政負擔，我想對於未來整體的老人福利政策，在執行面上才會比較有餘裕，謝謝次長。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員，謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝黃健豪委員。","接下來請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153331","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153331","tool":"pyannote","id":"153331-pyannote"},"job_id":"GaTBwUxv1aj2rSVk","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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11:38:30","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 11:39:44","msg":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153331 already downloaded"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:39:44","msg":"running whisperx with  --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）\n發言委員：黃健豪'"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:40:03","msg":"merging result"},{"time":"2024-05-30 11:40:03","msg":"status: done"}],"result":{"json":"{\"segments\": [{\"start\": 7.81, \"end\": 10.972, \"text\": \"好,謝謝主席。那我們先請這個衛福部次長,呂次長。好,次長。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 7.81, \"end\": 8.23, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 8.23, \"end\": 8.39, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"席\", 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51.42, \"text\": \"先恭喜擔任衛部政務次長。我想今天本席要討論的是老人福利法二十二條的部分。其實如果如同剛剛這麼多人的討論,如果單純要來談所謂青壯世代跟老年人的負擔的問題,跟世代公平之間的問題的話,我想如果要把這個話題導到這邊來,我覺得乾脆就廢除老人福利法。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 29.245, \"end\": 29.425, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"恭\", \"start\": 29.425, \"end\": 29.605, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"喜\", \"start\": 29.605, \"end\": 30.146, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 30.146, \"end\": 31.026, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 31.026, \"end\": 31.267, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 31.267, \"end\": 31.567, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 31.567, \"end\": 32.247, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 32.247, \"end\": 32.367, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 32.367, \"end\": 32.547, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 32.547, \"end\": 32.687, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"天\", 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{\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 93.25, \"end\": 93.39, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 93.39, \"end\": 93.55, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 93.55, \"end\": 93.73, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 93.73, \"end\": 93.93, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"活\", \"start\": 93.93, \"end\": 94.17, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 94.17, \"end\": 94.33, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 94.33, \"end\": 94.51, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 94.51, \"end\": 94.631, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 94.631, \"end\": 95.011, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"利\", \"start\": 95.011, \"end\": 95.951, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 95.951, \"end\": 96.331, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 96.331, \"end\": 96.531, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 96.531, \"end\": 96.751, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 460.552, \"end\": 460.892, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 460.892, \"end\": 460.912, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,810 --> 00:00:10,972\n好 , 謝 謝 主 席 。 那 我 們 先 請 這 個 衛 福 部 次 長 , 呂 次 長 。 好 , 次 長 。\n\n2\n00:00:29,245 --> 00:00:51,420\n先 恭 喜 擔 任 衛 部 政 務 次 長 。 我 想 今 天 本 席 要 討 論 的 是 老 人 福 利 法 二 十 二 條 的 部 分 。 其 實 如 果 如 同 剛 剛 這 麼 多 人 的 討 論 , 如 果 單 純 要 來 談 所 謂 青 壯 世 代 跟 老 年 人 的 負 擔 的 問 題 , 跟 世 代 公 平 之 間 的 問 題 的 話 , 我 想 如 果 要 把 這 個 話 題 導 到 這 邊 來 , 我 覺 得 乾 脆 就 廢 除 老 人 福 利 法 。\n\n3\n00:00:52,140 --> 00:01:14,324\n因 為 如 果 我 想 現 行 老 人 福 利 法 跟 各 項 的 社 會 福 利 制 度 每 一 項 基 本 上 都 是 使 用 人 民 納 稅 錢 如 果 要 去 談 這 個 問 題 的 話 因 為 剛 剛 提 到 關 於 年 輕 人 低 薪 房 價 過 高 少 子 化 未 來 負 擔 等 等 這 個 是 代 表 當 代 政 府 的 無 能 但 是 不 能 把 這 個 責 任 苛 責 歸 咎 於 是 因 為 我 們 要 去 負 擔\n\n4\n00:01:16,545 --> 00:01:38,632\n這 個 長 輩 這 6 5 歲 以 上 的 社 會 福 利 問 題 所 以 這 是 本 席 剛 剛 聽 下 來 先 提 出 來 的 一 個 感 想 那 我 要 先 提 這 個 為 什 麼 今 天 提 到 這 個 2 2 條 的 修 正 我 想 針 對 老 人 福 利 法 的 第 一 條 他 就 提 到 說 是 要 維 護 老 人 尊 嚴 跟 健 康 延 緩 老 人 失 能 安 定 老 人 生 活 保 障 老 人 權 利 增 進 老 人 福 利 所 以 訂 定 了 這 個 所 謂 老 人 福 利 法\n\n5\n00:01:39,272 --> 00:01:59,782\n那 全 民 健 康 保 險 法 裡 面 提 到 為 了 增 進 的 是 全 體 國 民 健 康 所 以 辦 理 這 個 全 民 健 康 保 險 。 所 以 合 併 起 來 看 起 來 其 實 這 個 全 民 健 康 保 險 那 在 6 5 歲 以 上 的 這 個 老 人 的 部 分 在 本 席 的 認 知 裡 面 他 應 該 是 全 體 整 體 整 個 國 家 的 一 個 重 大 政 策 才 對 。 次 長 你 對 這 樣 的 看 法 怎 麼 樣 ?\n\n6\n00:02:02,767 --> 00:02:24,609\n拜 託 委 員 的 這 一 個 的 看 法 。 那 我 想 我 也 曾 經 拜 託 委 員 的 這 個 論 文 。 你 的 論 文 主 要 是 作 為 關 於 中 國 大 陸 的 這 個 城 鄉 統 籌 還 有 醫 改 。 那 個 真 的 寫 得 非 常 非 常 非 常 好 。 那 我 想 這 個 部 分 也 確 實 是 就 陳 副 委 員 所 說 的 這 個 應 該 是 有 關 社 會 保 險 社 會 福 利 的 區 分 我 想 是 非 常 重 要 。 那 社 會 保 險 我 想\n\n7\n00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:25,830\n我 認 同 當 然 是 這 個 風 險 分 擔 , 那 這 個 風 險\n\n8\n00:02:50,249 --> 00:03:12,026\n﹗ 基 本 上 因 為 在 老 人 福 利 法 裡 面 甚 至 全 民 健 康 保 險 法 我 想 他 就 是 為 了 要 去 分 擔 或 去 負 擔 6 5 歲 以 上 我 們 未 來 如 果 走 向 真 的 走 向 這 個 高 齡 化 的 社 會 對 於 這 個 高 齡 化 的 這 個 國 民 的 部 分 我 們 到 底 有 沒 有 要 用 這 個 政 策 去 照 顧 他 們 當 然 這 是 選 擇 的 問 題 啦 我 提 2 2 條 我 們 當 然 選 擇 說 我 們 應 該 要 去 照 顧 那 我 會 有 這 個 選 擇 就 是 因 為 我 們 在 2 2 條 裡 面 在 現 行 的 條 文 裡 面\n\n9\n00:03:17,459 --> 00:03:37,878\n這 個 全 民 健 康 保 險 費 的 負 擔 的 部 分 明 定 的 丟 給 了 自 家 縣 市 主 管 機 關 但 是 我 們 又 看 回 說 老 人 福 利 法 的 第 一 條 跟 全 民 健 康 保 險 法 的 第 一 條 他 是 為 了 增 進 全 體 國 民 健 康 那 既 然 是 增 進 全 體 國 民 健 康 他 就 理 論 上 他 應 該 是 由 中 央 直 接 來 處 理 而 不 是 讓 各 地 方 政 府 去 處 理\n\n10\n00:03:38,739 --> 00:04:00,203\n因 為 讓 各 地 方 政 府 去 處 理 就 會 發 生 現 在 的 問 題 就 是 各 縣 市 的 財 政 是 不 一 樣 的 所 以 好 的 地 方 政 府 有 錢 地 方 政 府 他 的 確 可 以 提 供 比 較 多 補 助 但 沒 有 錢 地 方 政 府 他 就 等 於 沒 有 補 助 所 以 這 件 事 情 就 等 於 違 背 了 老 人 福 利 法 也 好 全 民 健 康 保 險 法 也 好 他 一 開 始 的 立 法 的 宗 旨 這 是 本 席 的 見 解 啦 所 以 說 我 為 什 麼 要 提 這 一 條 那 再 來 喔 這 個 次 長\n\n11\n00:04:03,332 --> 00:04:31,831\n這 個 幾 個 名 詞 啊 , 老 人 共 餐 、 長 平 學 院 、 老 人 城 鎮 補 助 、 老 人 裝 置 活 動 甲 癌 補 助 、 長 期 照 顧 服 務 、 增 至 老 人 送 餐 中 心 , 這 些 名 詞 有 沒 有 很 熟 悉 ? 欸 , 報 告 委 員 , 我 個 人 非 常 熟 悉 。 是 。 市 長 為 什 麼 提 這 個 , 因 為 這 是 您 過 去 在 台 中 市 的 德 政 。 不 敢 不 敢 。 那 這 個 德 政 怎 麼 來 的 ? 當 初 是 因 為 台 中 市 那 時 候 是 沒 有 老 人 健 保 補 助 , 所 以 把 這 個 預 算 挪 出 來 做 這 件 事 情 。 所 以 我 們 今 天 提 這 個 就 希 望 說 , 中 央 如 果 能 夠 來 負 擔 了 這 個 全 民 健 康 保 險 6 5 歲 以 上 的 部 分 ,\n\n12\n00:04:32,231 --> 00:04:52,472\n﹖ 排 富 條 款 怎 麽 定 ﹖ 大 家 可 以 再 細 究 ﹖ 我 是 定 2 0 % ﹖ 但 多 少 才 符 合 公 平 正 義 ﹖ 這 個 來 細 究 ﹖ 所 以 再 來 討 論 ﹖ 但 是 如 果 中 央 能 夠 把 這 一 塊 的 預 算 ﹖ 這 一 塊 的 福 利 制 度 ﹖ 把 它 由 中 央 來 承 擔 ﹖ 各 地 方 政 府 去 執 行 剛 剛 提 到 的 這 幾 項 ﹖ 地 方 上 的 福 利 政 策 的 時 候 ﹖ 它 就 有 更 多 的 餘 裕 ﹖\n\n13\n00:04:53,152 --> 00:04:53,793\n則 不 予 審 查 ： 黃 健 豪\n\n14\n00:05:12,149 --> 00:05:25,857\n﹏ 那 多 餘 的 地 方 政 府 有 餘 裕 的 讓 他 去 處 理 , 剛 提 到 說 老 人 送 餐 也 好 , 進 老 家 信 卡 也 好 , 這 些 地 方 政 府 去 執 行 這 些 多 餘 的 財 政 , 他 能 夠 去 執 行 這 些 事 情 。 我 不 知 道 次 長 對 這 樣 的 想 法 怎 麼 看 待 。\n\n15\n00:05:56,733 --> 00:06:21,975\n﹏ 那 十 五 幾 戶 的 部 分 我 還 是 認 為 就 是 說 ﹏ 可 能 還 是 是 不 是 還 是 我 們 中 央 這 邊 也 會 來 持 續 推 動 這 些 相 關 的 政 策 ﹏ 其 實 最 重 要 還 是 長 照 2 . 0 到 3 . 0 ﹏ 那 麼 再 加 上 c o m b i n e 剛 剛 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 這 些 相 關 的 服 務 ﹏ 因 為 我 剛 剛 提 到 這 些 服 務 執 行 面 就 地 方 政 府 在 執 行 ﹏ 所 以 如 果 他 能 夠 把 手 空 出 來 去 執 行 這 些 業 務 的 話 ﹏ 我 想 對 地 方 政 府 在 執 行 不 管 長 照 2 . 0 、 3 . 0 也 好 ﹏\n\n16\n00:06:23,616 --> 00:06:24,017\n委 員 黃 健 豪\n\n17\n00:06:46,918 --> 00:06:47,038\n﹖ 黃 健 豪 ﹖\n\n18\n00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:23,563\n長 照 、 老 人 福 利 等 等 的 這 個 經 費 , 他 能 夠 去 執 行 這 些 事 情 。 我 想 未 來 也 會 遇 到 這 個 問 題 。 如 果 你 衛 福 部 要 把 所 有 的 責 任 擔 在 身 上 , 我 也 沒 有 意 見 , 我 是 樂 觀 其 成 。 但 是 我 今 天 提 到 說 , 既 然 執 行 面 是 在 地 方 政 府 裡 面 , 如 果 在 這 個 執 行 面 上 是 由 地 方 政 府 來 承 擔 的 話 ,\n\n19\n00:07:24,284 --> 00:07:40,912\n﹏ 那 在 財 務 面 上 ﹏ 如 果 能 夠 讓 中 央 ﹏ 讓 衛 福 部 能 夠 幫 他 地 方 這 麼 減 ﹏ 減 輕 這 個 財 政 負 擔 ﹏ 我 想 對 於 未 來 的 這 個 ﹏ 整 體 的 這 個 老 人 ﹏ 這 個 衛 生 ﹏ 老 人 的 這 個 福 利 政 策 在 執 行 面 上 才 會 比 較 ﹏ 比 較 有 餘 裕 ﹏ 好 , 謝 謝 市 長 。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7810\t10972\t好,謝謝主席。那我們先請這個衛福部次長,呂次長。好,次長。\n29245\t51420\t先恭喜擔任衛部政務次長。我想今天本席要討論的是老人福利法二十二條的部分。其實如果如同剛剛這麼多人的討論,如果單純要來談所謂青壯世代跟老年人的負擔的問題,跟世代公平之間的問題的話,我想如果要把這個話題導到這邊來,我覺得乾脆就廢除老人福利法。\n52140\t74324\t因為如果我想現行老人福利法跟各項的社會福利制度每一項基本上都是使用人民納稅錢如果要去談這個問題的話因為剛剛提到關於年輕人低薪房價過高少子化未來負擔等等這個是代表當代政府的無能但是不能把這個責任苛責歸咎於是因為我們要去負擔\n76545\t98632\t這個長輩這65歲以上的社會福利問題所以這是本席剛剛聽下來先提出來的一個感想那我要先提這個為什麼今天提到這個22條的修正我想針對老人福利法的第一條他就提到說是要維護老人尊嚴跟健康延緩老人失能安定老人生活保障老人權利增進老人福利所以訂定了這個所謂老人福利法\n99272\t119782\t那全民健康保險法裡面提到為了增進的是全體國民健康所以辦理這個全民健康保險。所以合併起來看起來其實這個全民健康保險那在65歲以上的這個老人的部分在本席的認知裡面他應該是全體整體整個國家的一個重大政策才對。次長你對這樣的看法怎麼樣?\n122767\t144609\t拜託委員的這一個的看法。那我想我也曾經拜託委員的這個論文。你的論文主要是作為關於中國大陸的這個城鄉統籌還有醫改。那個真的寫得非常非常非常好。那我想這個部分也確實是就陳副委員所說的這個應該是有關社會保險社會福利的區分我想是非常重要。那社會保險我想\n145350\t145830\t我認同當然是這個風險分擔,那這個風險\n170249\t192026\t﹗基本上因為在老人福利法裡面甚至全民健康保險法我想他就是為了要去分擔或去負擔65歲以上我們未來如果走向真的走向這個高齡化的社會對於這個高齡化的這個國民的部分我們到底有沒有要用這個政策去照顧他們當然這是選擇的問題啦我提22條我們當然選擇說我們應該要去照顧那我會有這個選擇就是因為我們在22條裡面在現行的條文裡面\n197459\t217878\t這個全民健康保險費的負擔的部分明定的丟給了自家縣市主管機關但是我們又看回說老人福利法的第一條跟全民健康保險法的第一條他是為了增進全體國民健康那既然是增進全體國民健康他就理論上他應該是由中央直接來處理而不是讓各地方政府去處理\n218739\t240203\t因為讓各地方政府去處理就會發生現在的問題就是各縣市的財政是不一樣的所以好的地方政府有錢地方政府他的確可以提供比較多補助但沒有錢地方政府他就等於沒有補助所以這件事情就等於違背了老人福利法也好全民健康保險法也好他一開始的立法的宗旨這是本席的見解啦所以說我為什麼要提這一條那再來喔這個次長\n243332\t271831\t這個幾個名詞啊,老人共餐、長平學院、老人城鎮補助、老人裝置活動甲癌補助、長期照顧服務、增至老人送餐中心,這些名詞有沒有很熟悉?欸,報告委員,我個人非常熟悉。是。市長為什麼提這個,因為這是您過去在台中市的德政。不敢不敢。那這個德政怎麼來的?當初是因為台中市那時候是沒有老人健保補助,所以把這個預算挪出來做這件事情。所以我們今天提這個就希望說,中央如果能夠來負擔了這個全民健康保險65歲以上的部分,\n272231\t292472\t﹖排富條款怎麽定﹖大家可以再細究﹖我是定20%﹖但多少才符合公平正義﹖這個來細究﹖所以再來討論﹖但是如果中央能夠把這一塊的預算﹖這一塊的福利制度﹖把它由中央來承擔﹖各地方政府去執行剛剛提到的這幾項﹖地方上的福利政策的時候﹖它就有更多的餘裕﹖\n293152\t293793\t則不予審查：黃健豪\n312149\t325857\t﹏那多餘的地方政府有餘裕的讓他去處理,剛提到說老人送餐也好,進老家信卡也好,這些地方政府去執行這些多餘的財政,他能夠去執行這些事情。我不知道次長對這樣的想法怎麼看待。\n326493\t356493\t響鐘\n356733\t381975\t﹏那十五幾戶的部分我還是認為就是說﹏可能還是是不是還是我們中央這邊也會來持續推動這些相關的政策﹏其實最重要還是長照2.0到3.0﹏那麼再加上combine剛剛委員剛剛所說的這些相關的服務﹏因為我剛剛提到這些服務執行面就地方政府在執行﹏所以如果他能夠把手空出來去執行這些業務的話﹏我想對地方政府在執行不管長照2.0、3.0也好﹏\n383616\t384017\t委員黃健豪\n406918\t407038\t﹖黃健豪﹖\n425880\t443563\t長照、老人福利等等的這個經費,他能夠去執行這些事情。我想未來也會遇到這個問題。如果你衛福部要把所有的責任擔在身上,我也沒有意見,我是樂觀其成。但是我今天提到說,既然執行面是在地方政府裡面,如果在這個執行面上是由地方政府來承擔的話,\n444284\t460912\t﹏那在財務面上﹏如果能夠讓中央﹏讓衛福部能夠幫他地方這麼減﹏減輕這個財政負擔﹏我想對於未來的這個﹏整體的這個老人﹏這個衛生﹏老人的這個福利政策在執行面上才會比較﹏比較有餘裕﹏好,謝謝市長。\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席。那我們先請這個衛福部次長,呂次長。好,次長。\n先恭喜擔任衛部政務次長。我想今天本席要討論的是老人福利法二十二條的部分。其實如果如同剛剛這麼多人的討論,如果單純要來談所謂青壯世代跟老年人的負擔的問題,跟世代公平之間的問題的話,我想如果要把這個話題導到這邊來,我覺得乾脆就廢除老人福利法。\n因為如果我想現行老人福利法跟各項的社會福利制度每一項基本上都是使用人民納稅錢如果要去談這個問題的話因為剛剛提到關於年輕人低薪房價過高少子化未來負擔等等這個是代表當代政府的無能但是不能把這個責任苛責歸咎於是因為我們要去負擔\n這個長輩這65歲以上的社會福利問題所以這是本席剛剛聽下來先提出來的一個感想那我要先提這個為什麼今天提到這個22條的修正我想針對老人福利法的第一條他就提到說是要維護老人尊嚴跟健康延緩老人失能安定老人生活保障老人權利增進老人福利所以訂定了這個所謂老人福利法\n那全民健康保險法裡面提到為了增進的是全體國民健康所以辦理這個全民健康保險。所以合併起來看起來其實這個全民健康保險那在65歲以上的這個老人的部分在本席的認知裡面他應該是全體整體整個國家的一個重大政策才對。次長你對這樣的看法怎麼樣?\n拜託委員的這一個的看法。那我想我也曾經拜託委員的這個論文。你的論文主要是作為關於中國大陸的這個城鄉統籌還有醫改。那個真的寫得非常非常非常好。那我想這個部分也確實是就陳副委員所說的這個應該是有關社會保險社會福利的區分我想是非常重要。那社會保險我想\n我認同當然是這個風險分擔,那這個風險\n﹗基本上因為在老人福利法裡面甚至全民健康保險法我想他就是為了要去分擔或去負擔65歲以上我們未來如果走向真的走向這個高齡化的社會對於這個高齡化的這個國民的部分我們到底有沒有要用這個政策去照顧他們當然這是選擇的問題啦我提22條我們當然選擇說我們應該要去照顧那我會有這個選擇就是因為我們在22條裡面在現行的條文裡面\n這個全民健康保險費的負擔的部分明定的丟給了自家縣市主管機關但是我們又看回說老人福利法的第一條跟全民健康保險法的第一條他是為了增進全體國民健康那既然是增進全體國民健康他就理論上他應該是由中央直接來處理而不是讓各地方政府去處理\n因為讓各地方政府去處理就會發生現在的問題就是各縣市的財政是不一樣的所以好的地方政府有錢地方政府他的確可以提供比較多補助但沒有錢地方政府他就等於沒有補助所以這件事情就等於違背了老人福利法也好全民健康保險法也好他一開始的立法的宗旨這是本席的見解啦所以說我為什麼要提這一條那再來喔這個次長\n這個幾個名詞啊,老人共餐、長平學院、老人城鎮補助、老人裝置活動甲癌補助、長期照顧服務、增至老人送餐中心,這些名詞有沒有很熟悉?欸,報告委員,我個人非常熟悉。是。市長為什麼提這個,因為這是您過去在台中市的德政。不敢不敢。那這個德政怎麼來的?當初是因為台中市那時候是沒有老人健保補助,所以把這個預算挪出來做這件事情。所以我們今天提這個就希望說,中央如果能夠來負擔了這個全民健康保險65歲以上的部分,\n﹖排富條款怎麽定﹖大家可以再細究﹖我是定20%﹖但多少才符合公平正義﹖這個來細究﹖所以再來討論﹖但是如果中央能夠把這一塊的預算﹖這一塊的福利制度﹖把它由中央來承擔﹖各地方政府去執行剛剛提到的這幾項﹖地方上的福利政策的時候﹖它就有更多的餘裕﹖\n則不予審查：黃健豪\n﹏那多餘的地方政府有餘裕的讓他去處理,剛提到說老人送餐也好,進老家信卡也好,這些地方政府去執行這些多餘的財政,他能夠去執行這些事情。我不知道次長對這樣的想法怎麼看待。\n響鐘\n﹏那十五幾戶的部分我還是認為就是說﹏可能還是是不是還是我們中央這邊也會來持續推動這些相關的政策﹏其實最重要還是長照2.0到3.0﹏那麼再加上combine剛剛委員剛剛所說的這些相關的服務﹏因為我剛剛提到這些服務執行面就地方政府在執行﹏所以如果他能夠把手空出來去執行這些業務的話﹏我想對地方政府在執行不管長照2.0、3.0也好﹏\n委員黃健豪\n﹖黃健豪﹖\n長照、老人福利等等的這個經費,他能夠去執行這些事情。我想未來也會遇到這個問題。如果你衛福部要把所有的責任擔在身上,我也沒有意見,我是樂觀其成。但是我今天提到說,既然執行面是在地方政府裡面,如果在這個執行面上是由地方政府來承擔的話,\n﹏那在財務面上﹏如果能夠讓中央﹏讓衛福部能夠幫他地方這麼減﹏減輕這個財政負擔﹏我想對於未來的這個﹏整體的這個老人﹏這個衛生﹏老人的這個福利政策在執行面上才會比較﹏比較有餘裕﹏好,謝謝市長。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.810 --> 00:10.972\n好 , 謝 謝 主 席 。 那 我 們 先 請 這 個 衛 福 部 次 長 , 呂 次 長 。 好 , 次 長 。\n\n00:29.245 --> 00:51.420\n先 恭 喜 擔 任 衛 部 政 務 次 長 。 我 想 今 天 本 席 要 討 論 的 是 老 人 福 利 法 二 十 二 條 的 部 分 。 其 實 如 果 如 同 剛 剛 這 麼 多 人 的 討 論 , 如 果 單 純 要 來 談 所 謂 青 壯 世 代 跟 老 年 人 的 負 擔 的 問 題 , 跟 世 代 公 平 之 間 的 問 題 的 話 , 我 想 如 果 要 把 這 個 話 題 導 到 這 邊 來 , 我 覺 得 乾 脆 就 廢 除 老 人 福 利 法 。\n\n00:52.140 --> 01:14.324\n因 為 如 果 我 想 現 行 老 人 福 利 法 跟 各 項 的 社 會 福 利 制 度 每 一 項 基 本 上 都 是 使 用 人 民 納 稅 錢 如 果 要 去 談 這 個 問 題 的 話 因 為 剛 剛 提 到 關 於 年 輕 人 低 薪 房 價 過 高 少 子 化 未 來 負 擔 等 等 這 個 是 代 表 當 代 政 府 的 無 能 但 是 不 能 把 這 個 責 任 苛 責 歸 咎 於 是 因 為 我 們 要 去 負 擔\n\n01:16.545 --> 01:38.632\n這 個 長 輩 這 6 5 歲 以 上 的 社 會 福 利 問 題 所 以 這 是 本 席 剛 剛 聽 下 來 先 提 出 來 的 一 個 感 想 那 我 要 先 提 這 個 為 什 麼 今 天 提 到 這 個 2 2 條 的 修 正 我 想 針 對 老 人 福 利 法 的 第 一 條 他 就 提 到 說 是 要 維 護 老 人 尊 嚴 跟 健 康 延 緩 老 人 失 能 安 定 老 人 生 活 保 障 老 人 權 利 增 進 老 人 福 利 所 以 訂 定 了 這 個 所 謂 老 人 福 利 法\n\n01:39.272 --> 01:59.782\n那 全 民 健 康 保 險 法 裡 面 提 到 為 了 增 進 的 是 全 體 國 民 健 康 所 以 辦 理 這 個 全 民 健 康 保 險 。 所 以 合 併 起 來 看 起 來 其 實 這 個 全 民 健 康 保 險 那 在 6 5 歲 以 上 的 這 個 老 人 的 部 分 在 本 席 的 認 知 裡 面 他 應 該 是 全 體 整 體 整 個 國 家 的 一 個 重 大 政 策 才 對 。 次 長 你 對 這 樣 的 看 法 怎 麼 樣 ?\n\n02:02.767 --> 02:24.609\n拜 託 委 員 的 這 一 個 的 看 法 。 那 我 想 我 也 曾 經 拜 託 委 員 的 這 個 論 文 。 你 的 論 文 主 要 是 作 為 關 於 中 國 大 陸 的 這 個 城 鄉 統 籌 還 有 醫 改 。 那 個 真 的 寫 得 非 常 非 常 非 常 好 。 那 我 想 這 個 部 分 也 確 實 是 就 陳 副 委 員 所 說 的 這 個 應 該 是 有 關 社 會 保 險 社 會 福 利 的 區 分 我 想 是 非 常 重 要 。 那 社 會 保 險 我 想\n\n02:25.350 --> 02:25.830\n我 認 同 當 然 是 這 個 風 險 分 擔 , 那 這 個 風 險\n\n02:50.249 --> 03:12.026\n﹗ 基 本 上 因 為 在 老 人 福 利 法 裡 面 甚 至 全 民 健 康 保 險 法 我 想 他 就 是 為 了 要 去 分 擔 或 去 負 擔 6 5 歲 以 上 我 們 未 來 如 果 走 向 真 的 走 向 這 個 高 齡 化 的 社 會 對 於 這 個 高 齡 化 的 這 個 國 民 的 部 分 我 們 到 底 有 沒 有 要 用 這 個 政 策 去 照 顧 他 們 當 然 這 是 選 擇 的 問 題 啦 我 提 2 2 條 我 們 當 然 選 擇 說 我 們 應 該 要 去 照 顧 那 我 會 有 這 個 選 擇 就 是 因 為 我 們 在 2 2 條 裡 面 在 現 行 的 條 文 裡 面\n\n03:17.459 --> 03:37.878\n這 個 全 民 健 康 保 險 費 的 負 擔 的 部 分 明 定 的 丟 給 了 自 家 縣 市 主 管 機 關 但 是 我 們 又 看 回 說 老 人 福 利 法 的 第 一 條 跟 全 民 健 康 保 險 法 的 第 一 條 他 是 為 了 增 進 全 體 國 民 健 康 那 既 然 是 增 進 全 體 國 民 健 康 他 就 理 論 上 他 應 該 是 由 中 央 直 接 來 處 理 而 不 是 讓 各 地 方 政 府 去 處 理\n\n03:38.739 --> 04:00.203\n因 為 讓 各 地 方 政 府 去 處 理 就 會 發 生 現 在 的 問 題 就 是 各 縣 市 的 財 政 是 不 一 樣 的 所 以 好 的 地 方 政 府 有 錢 地 方 政 府 他 的 確 可 以 提 供 比 較 多 補 助 但 沒 有 錢 地 方 政 府 他 就 等 於 沒 有 補 助 所 以 這 件 事 情 就 等 於 違 背 了 老 人 福 利 法 也 好 全 民 健 康 保 險 法 也 好 他 一 開 始 的 立 法 的 宗 旨 這 是 本 席 的 見 解 啦 所 以 說 我 為 什 麼 要 提 這 一 條 那 再 來 喔 這 個 次 長\n\n04:03.332 --> 04:31.831\n這 個 幾 個 名 詞 啊 , 老 人 共 餐 、 長 平 學 院 、 老 人 城 鎮 補 助 、 老 人 裝 置 活 動 甲 癌 補 助 、 長 期 照 顧 服 務 、 增 至 老 人 送 餐 中 心 , 這 些 名 詞 有 沒 有 很 熟 悉 ? 欸 , 報 告 委 員 , 我 個 人 非 常 熟 悉 。 是 。 市 長 為 什 麼 提 這 個 , 因 為 這 是 您 過 去 在 台 中 市 的 德 政 。 不 敢 不 敢 。 那 這 個 德 政 怎 麼 來 的 ? 當 初 是 因 為 台 中 市 那 時 候 是 沒 有 老 人 健 保 補 助 , 所 以 把 這 個 預 算 挪 出 來 做 這 件 事 情 。 所 以 我 們 今 天 提 這 個 就 希 望 說 , 中 央 如 果 能 夠 來 負 擔 了 這 個 全 民 健 康 保 險 6 5 歲 以 上 的 部 分 ,\n\n04:32.231 --> 04:52.472\n﹖ 排 富 條 款 怎 麽 定 ﹖ 大 家 可 以 再 細 究 ﹖ 我 是 定 2 0 % ﹖ 但 多 少 才 符 合 公 平 正 義 ﹖ 這 個 來 細 究 ﹖ 所 以 再 來 討 論 ﹖ 但 是 如 果 中 央 能 夠 把 這 一 塊 的 預 算 ﹖ 這 一 塊 的 福 利 制 度 ﹖ 把 它 由 中 央 來 承 擔 ﹖ 各 地 方 政 府 去 執 行 剛 剛 提 到 的 這 幾 項 ﹖ 地 方 上 的 福 利 政 策 的 時 候 ﹖ 它 就 有 更 多 的 餘 裕 ﹖\n\n04:53.152 --> 04:53.793\n則 不 予 審 查 ： 黃 健 豪\n\n05:12.149 --> 05:25.857\n﹏ 那 多 餘 的 地 方 政 府 有 餘 裕 的 讓 他 去 處 理 , 剛 提 到 說 老 人 送 餐 也 好 , 進 老 家 信 卡 也 好 , 這 些 地 方 政 府 去 執 行 這 些 多 餘 的 財 政 , 他 能 夠 去 執 行 這 些 事 情 。 我 不 知 道 次 長 對 這 樣 的 想 法 怎 麼 看 待 。\n\n05:56.733 --> 06:21.975\n﹏ 那 十 五 幾 戶 的 部 分 我 還 是 認 為 就 是 說 ﹏ 可 能 還 是 是 不 是 還 是 我 們 中 央 這 邊 也 會 來 持 續 推 動 這 些 相 關 的 政 策 ﹏ 其 實 最 重 要 還 是 長 照 2 . 0 到 3 . 0 ﹏ 那 麼 再 加 上 c o m b i n e 剛 剛 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 這 些 相 關 的 服 務 ﹏ 因 為 我 剛 剛 提 到 這 些 服 務 執 行 面 就 地 方 政 府 在 執 行 ﹏ 所 以 如 果 他 能 夠 把 手 空 出 來 去 執 行 這 些 業 務 的 話 ﹏ 我 想 對 地 方 政 府 在 執 行 不 管 長 照 2 . 0 、 3 . 0 也 好 ﹏\n\n06:23.616 --> 06:24.017\n委 員 黃 健 豪\n\n06:46.918 --> 06:47.038\n﹖ 黃 健 豪 ﹖\n\n07:05.880 --> 07:23.563\n長 照 、 老 人 福 利 等 等 的 這 個 經 費 , 他 能 夠 去 執 行 這 些 事 情 。 我 想 未 來 也 會 遇 到 這 個 問 題 。 如 果 你 衛 福 部 要 把 所 有 的 責 任 擔 在 身 上 , 我 也 沒 有 意 見 , 我 是 樂 觀 其 成 。 但 是 我 今 天 提 到 說 , 既 然 執 行 面 是 在 地 方 政 府 裡 面 , 如 果 在 這 個 執 行 面 上 是 由 地 方 政 府 來 承 擔 的 話 ,\n\n07:24.284 --> 07:40.912\n﹏ 那 在 財 務 面 上 ﹏ 如 果 能 夠 讓 中 央 ﹏ 讓 衛 福 部 能 夠 幫 他 地 方 這 麼 減 ﹏ 減 輕 這 個 財 政 負 擔 ﹏ 我 想 對 於 未 來 的 這 個 ﹏ 整 體 的 這 個 老 人 ﹏ 這 個 衛 生 ﹏ 老 人 的 這 個 福 利 政 策 在 執 行 面 上 才 會 比 較 ﹏ 比 較 有 餘 裕 ﹏ 好 , 謝 謝 市 長 。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.81,"end":10.972,"text":"好,謝謝主席。那我們先請這個衛福部次長,呂次長。好,次長。"},{"start":29.245,"end":51.42,"text":"先恭喜擔任衛部政務次長。我想今天本席要討論的是老人福利法二十二條的部分。其實如果如同剛剛這麼多人的討論,如果單純要來談所謂青壯世代跟老年人的負擔的問題,跟世代公平之間的問題的話,我想如果要把這個話題導到這邊來,我覺得乾脆就廢除老人福利法。"},{"start":52.14,"end":74.324,"text":"因為如果我想現行老人福利法跟各項的社會福利制度每一項基本上都是使用人民納稅錢如果要去談這個問題的話因為剛剛提到關於年輕人低薪房價過高少子化未來負擔等等這個是代表當代政府的無能但是不能把這個責任苛責歸咎於是因為我們要去負擔"},{"start":76.545,"end":98.632,"text":"這個長輩這65歲以上的社會福利問題所以這是本席剛剛聽下來先提出來的一個感想那我要先提這個為什麼今天提到這個22條的修正我想針對老人福利法的第一條他就提到說是要維護老人尊嚴跟健康延緩老人失能安定老人生活保障老人權利增進老人福利所以訂定了這個所謂老人福利法"},{"start":99.272,"end":119.782,"text":"那全民健康保險法裡面提到為了增進的是全體國民健康所以辦理這個全民健康保險。所以合併起來看起來其實這個全民健康保險那在65歲以上的這個老人的部分在本席的認知裡面他應該是全體整體整個國家的一個重大政策才對。次長你對這樣的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":122.767,"end":144.609,"text":"拜託委員的這一個的看法。那我想我也曾經拜託委員的這個論文。你的論文主要是作為關於中國大陸的這個城鄉統籌還有醫改。那個真的寫得非常非常非常好。那我想這個部分也確實是就陳副委員所說的這個應該是有關社會保險社會福利的區分我想是非常重要。那社會保險我想"},{"start":145.35,"end":145.83,"text":"我認同當然是這個風險分擔,那這個風險"},{"start":170.249,"end":192.026,"text":"﹗基本上因為在老人福利法裡面甚至全民健康保險法我想他就是為了要去分擔或去負擔65歲以上我們未來如果走向真的走向這個高齡化的社會對於這個高齡化的這個國民的部分我們到底有沒有要用這個政策去照顧他們當然這是選擇的問題啦我提22條我們當然選擇說我們應該要去照顧那我會有這個選擇就是因為我們在22條裡面在現行的條文裡面"},{"start":197.459,"end":217.878,"text":"這個全民健康保險費的負擔的部分明定的丟給了自家縣市主管機關但是我們又看回說老人福利法的第一條跟全民健康保險法的第一條他是為了增進全體國民健康那既然是增進全體國民健康他就理論上他應該是由中央直接來處理而不是讓各地方政府去處理"},{"start":218.739,"end":240.203,"text":"因為讓各地方政府去處理就會發生現在的問題就是各縣市的財政是不一樣的所以好的地方政府有錢地方政府他的確可以提供比較多補助但沒有錢地方政府他就等於沒有補助所以這件事情就等於違背了老人福利法也好全民健康保險法也好他一開始的立法的宗旨這是本席的見解啦所以說我為什麼要提這一條那再來喔這個次長"},{"start":243.332,"end":271.831,"text":"這個幾個名詞啊,老人共餐、長平學院、老人城鎮補助、老人裝置活動甲癌補助、長期照顧服務、增至老人送餐中心,這些名詞有沒有很熟悉?欸,報告委員,我個人非常熟悉。是。市長為什麼提這個,因為這是您過去在台中市的德政。不敢不敢。那這個德政怎麼來的?當初是因為台中市那時候是沒有老人健保補助,所以把這個預算挪出來做這件事情。所以我們今天提這個就希望說,中央如果能夠來負擔了這個全民健康保險65歲以上的部分,"},{"start":272.231,"end":292.472,"text":" ﹖排富條款怎麽定﹖大家可以再細究﹖我是定20%﹖但多少才符合公平正義﹖這個來細究﹖所以再來討論﹖但是如果中央能夠把這一塊的預算﹖這一塊的福利制度﹖把它由中央來承擔﹖各地方政府去執行剛剛提到的這幾項﹖地方上的福利政策的時候﹖它就有更多的餘裕﹖"},{"start":293.152,"end":293.793,"text":"則不予審查：黃健豪"},{"start":312.149,"end":325.857,"text":" ﹏那多餘的地方政府有餘裕的讓他去處理,剛提到說老人送餐也好,進老家信卡也好,這些地方政府去執行這些多餘的財政,他能夠去執行這些事情。我不知道次長對這樣的想法怎麼看待。"},{"start":326.493,"end":356.493,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":356.733,"end":381.975,"text":" ﹏那十五幾戶的部分我還是認為就是說﹏可能還是是不是還是我們中央這邊也會來持續推動這些相關的政策﹏其實最重要還是長照2.0到3.0﹏那麼再加上combine剛剛委員剛剛所說的這些相關的服務﹏因為我剛剛提到這些服務執行面就地方政府在執行﹏所以如果他能夠把手空出來去執行這些業務的話﹏我想對地方政府在執行不管長照2.0、3.0也好﹏"},{"start":383.616,"end":384.017,"text":"委員黃健豪"},{"start":406.918,"end":407.038,"text":" ﹖黃健豪﹖"},{"start":425.88,"end":443.563,"text":"長照、老人福利等等的這個經費,他能夠去執行這些事情。我想未來也會遇到這個問題。如果你衛福部要把所有的責任擔在身上,我也沒有意見,我是樂觀其成。但是我今天提到說,既然執行面是在地方政府裡面,如果在這個執行面上是由地方政府來承擔的話,"},{"start":444.284,"end":460.912,"text":" ﹏那在財務面上﹏如果能夠讓中央﹏讓衛福部能夠幫他地方這麼減﹏減輕這個財政負擔﹏我想對於未來的這個﹏整體的這個老人﹏這個衛生﹏老人的這個福利政策在執行面上才會比較﹏比較有餘裕﹏好,謝謝市長。"}]}}}}