{"id":153341,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153341","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaee712ea85f754198cb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cd6c7d451d8d01ad695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:19:17 - 10:26:19","影片長度":"00:07:02","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra 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\"環\"}, {\"word\": \"島\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 36.649, \"end\": 37.609, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"鐵\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 37.609, \"end\": 38.67, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 38.67, \"end\": 39.17, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 39.17, \"end\": 39.39, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 39.39, \"end\": 39.851, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 39.851, \"end\": 40.131, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 40.131, \"end\": 40.231, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 40.231, \"end\": 40.371, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 40.371, \"end\": 40.511, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 40.511, \"end\": 40.631, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 40.631, \"end\": 40.851, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 40.851, 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0.775}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 45.595, \"end\": 45.776, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 45.776, \"end\": 45.996, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 45.996, \"end\": 46.937, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 46.937, \"end\": 47.357, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 47.357, \"end\": 49.379, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 49.379, \"end\": 49.72, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 49.72, \"end\": 50.22, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 50.22, \"end\": 50.481, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 50.481, \"end\": 50.561, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 50.561, \"end\": 50.581, \"score\": 0.31}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 50.581, \"end\": 50.841, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 50.841, \"end\": 51.362, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 51.362, \"end\": 51.502, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 51.502, \"end\": 51.622, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 51.622, \"end\": 51.722, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 51.722, \"end\": 51.922, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 51.922, \"end\": 52.162, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 52.162, \"end\": 52.282, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 52.282, \"end\": 52.303, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 52.303, \"end\": 52.323, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 57.793, \"end\": 76.341, \"text\": \"應該要經過原住民的部落或者是說希望要開發原住民的土地的話必須要這個取得原住民部落的諮商的同意沒錯 這就是我想要知道的因為這三個法案現在就是大家也估算說經費的需求超過兩兆\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 57.793, \"end\": 58.713, \"score\": 0.925}, 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{\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 93.996, \"end\": 94.276, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 94.276, \"end\": 94.636, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 94.636, \"end\": 94.776, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 94.776, \"end\": 94.897, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 94.897, \"end\": 94.917, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 94.917, \"end\": 95.017, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 95.017, \"end\": 95.037, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 95.037, \"end\": 95.057, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 95.057, \"end\": 95.077, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 96.718, \"end\": 119.398, \"text\": \"那之前交通部其實也有評估過說像花東塊至少會經過11個原民的部落那甚至也會經過像剛剛主委說的有非常多是包括原住民族部落的傳統領域也有可能會徵收到原住民族的土地才能完成的甚至呢對於部落的環境\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 96.718, \"end\": 96.938, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 96.938, \"end\": 97.058, 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407.746, \"end\": 407.886, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 407.886, \"end\": 408.046, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 408.046, \"end\": 408.246, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 408.246, \"end\": 408.606, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 408.606, \"end\": 408.766, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 408.766, \"end\": 409.026, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 409.026, \"end\": 409.506, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 409.506, \"end\": 409.806, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 409.806, \"end\": 411.247, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 411.247, \"end\": 411.527, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 411.527, \"end\": 411.807, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 411.807, \"end\": 411.927, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 411.927, \"end\": 412.107, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 412.107, \"end\": 412.527, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 412.527, \"end\": 413.267, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"趕\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 413.267, \"end\": 413.687, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"促\", \"start\": 413.687, \"end\": 413.927, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 413.927, \"end\": 414.528, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 414.528, \"end\": 414.908, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 414.908, \"end\": 415.108, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"趕\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 415.108, \"end\": 415.468, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 415.468, \"end\": 415.628, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 415.628, \"end\": 415.768, \"score\": 0.697}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 415.768, \"end\": 415.888, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 415.888, \"end\": 415.988, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 415.988, \"end\": 416.148, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 416.148, \"end\": 416.448, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"訂\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 416.448, \"end\": 416.608, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 416.608, \"end\": 416.628, \"score\": 0.007}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 416.628, \"end\": 416.728, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 416.728, \"end\": 416.748, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 416.748, \"end\": 416.768, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 420.475, \"end\": 420.717, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"捷\", \"start\": 420.717, \"end\": 420.838, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 420.838, \"end\": 420.918, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 420.918, \"end\": 420.938, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,827 --> 00:00:10,312\n謝 謝 謝 謝 主 席 我 們 請 曾 主 委\n\n2\n00:00:26,583 --> 00:00:41,772\n主 委 知 道 說 最 近 啊 我 們 立 法 院 都 在 討 論 有 三 個 跟 花 東 然 後 跟 可 能 會 經 過 花 東 的 三 個 法 案 包 括 環 島 高 鐵 國 道 6 號 東 延 還 有 花 東 快 不 知 道 主 委 知 不 知 道 知 道\n\n3\n00:00:43,413 --> 00:00:52,323\n這 三 個 法 案 我 們 原 民 會 有 沒 有 相 關 的 業 務 會 經 過 你 們 的 評 估 不 知 道 你 們 內 部 有 沒 有 先 行 討 論 了 呢 ?\n\n4\n00:00:57,793 --> 00:01:16,341\n應 該 要 經 過 原 住 民 的 部 落 或 者 是 說 希 望 要 開 發 原 住 民 的 土 地 的 話 必 須 要 這 個 取 得 原 住 民 部 落 的 諮 商 的 同 意 沒 錯 這 就 是 我 想 要 知 道 的 因 為 這 三 個 法 案 現 在 就 是 大 家 也 估 算 說 經 費 的 需 求 超 過 兩 兆\n\n5\n00:01:17,902 --> 00:01:35,077\n那 要 求 我 們 行 政 機 關 要 在 1 0 年 內 蓋 完 可 是 因 為 這 些 法 案 到 目 前 都 還 沒 有 實 質 的 討 論 也 沒 有 任 何 的 評 估 就 已 經 被 全 案 保 留 送 出 交 通 委 員 會 並 且 排 入 到 院 會 準 備 二 三 讀 的 議 程 了 只 是 到 現 在 還 沒 有 審 到\n\n6\n00:01:36,718 --> 00:01:59,398\n那 之 前 交 通 部 其 實 也 有 評 估 過 說 像 花 東 塊 至 少 會 經 過 1 1 個 原 民 的 部 落 那 甚 至 也 會 經 過 像 剛 剛 主 委 說 的 有 非 常 多 是 包 括 原 住 民 族 部 落 的 傳 統 領 域 也 有 可 能 會 徵 收 到 原 住 民 族 的 土 地 才 能 完 成 的 甚 至 呢 對 於 部 落 的 環 境\n\n7\n00:02:00,299 --> 00:02:00,439\n請 署 長 解 釋\n\n8\n00:02:29,148 --> 00:02:55,183\n那 針 對 這 個 可 能 會 影 響 到 的 1 1 個 部 落 那 這 個 部 份 我 們 會 去 協 助 他 們 就 是 說 去 讓 他 們 了 解 說 整 個 慈 善 同 義 要 怎 麼 樣 去 進 行 因 為 有 很 多 部 落 他 其 實 對 這 個 部 份 非 常 的 陌 生 沒 錯 這 就 是 我 們 擔 心 的 在 部 落 們 都 還 非 常 陌 生 甚 至 都 還 不 清 楚 的 情 況 下 這 個 這 三 個 法 就 已 經 被 送 到 院 會 甚 至 被 排 入 議 程 了\n\n9\n00:02:56,468 --> 00:03:19,482\n所 以 我 想 要 講 的 是 現 在 其 實 我 們 原 基 法 裡 面 有 明 定 這 樣 的 精 神 如 果 政 府 要 在 原 住 民 族 的 土 地 或 是 部 落 或 是 周 邊 的 一 定 範 圍 內 要 從 事 任 何 土 地 的 開 發 公 共 的 開 發 必 須 要 經 諮 商 並 且 取 得 原 住 民 族 或 是 部 落 的 同 意 並 且 參 與 並 且 跟 原 住 民 族 來 分 享 相 關 的 利 益 這 個 在 你 們 業 務 報 告 裡 面 其 實 也 有 提 到 說 接 下 來 我 們 應 該 要 來\n\n10\n00:03:23,304 --> 00:03:41,722\n來 修 這 個 諮 商 取 得 原 住 民 族 部 落 的 同 意 的 參 與 辦 法 那 當 然 我 很 肯 定 只 是 說 現 在 像 是 這 三 個 法 就 已 經 迫 在 眉 睫 囉 那 現 在 我 們 如 果 有 任 何 原 住 民 族 相 關 的 會 影 響 到 他 們 權 益 的 拜 託 我 們 原 民 會 一 定 要 做 第 一 層 的 把 關 好 嗎 好\n\n11\n00:03:44,659 --> 00:04:09,513\n我 希 望 說 像 是 在 這 三 案 裡 面 現 在 主 人 的 立 場 是 什 麼 然 後 你 們 原 民 會 的 角 色 是 什 麼 一 定 都 要 積 極 的 發 聲 不 要 讓 原 住 民 族 的 土 地 正 義 在 這 種 多 數 暴 力 的 情 況 下 被 強 行 碾 壓 那 再 來 提 到 一 下 今 天 的 這 個 法 我 想 要 請 教 的 是 因 為 其 實 我 們 現 在 都 有 在 做 相 關 的 都 是 原 住 民 族 的 發 展 的 政 策 對 嗎\n\n12\n00:04:11,734 --> 00:04:18,262\n對 。 然 後 就 你 們 的 這 個 業 務 報 告 裡 面 也 有 提 到 我 們 有 一 些 相 關 的 發 展 的 方 案 報 告 對 嗎 ?\n\n13\n00:04:20,472 --> 00:04:41,151\n我 們 現 在 訂 這 個 發 展 的 條 例 跟 這 個 發 展 的 方 案 之 間 是 如 何 搭 配 的 ? 也 就 是 說 我 想 知 道 的 是 我 們 現 在 訂 這 個 法 的 用 意 以 及 它 接 下 來 若 真 的 要 施 行 到 底 對 於 發 展 的 方 案 上 面 是 有 什 麼 具 體 的 幫 助 以 及 什 麼 樣 的 法 律 授 權 ?\n\n14\n00:04:43,344 --> 00:04:57,876\n這 個 定 這 個 都 市 的 這 個 發 展 條 例 最 主 要 是 在 5 5 個 鄉 以 外 的 都 會 尤 其 是 超 過 1 5 0 0 個 人 涉 及 超 過 1 5 0 0 個 人 的 原 住 民 的 話 會 有 更 明 確 的 照 顧\n\n15\n00:04:59,397 --> 00:05:17,527\n因 為 像 很 多 在 原 鄉 施 行 的 計 畫 沒 有 辦 法 在 這 個 都 會 區 來 做 照 顧 比 如 說 在 都 會 區 裡 面 要 蓋 聚 會 所 啦 或 者 是 一 些 相 關 語 言 文 化 的 設 施 他 必 須 要 有 這 樣 的 一 個 法 以 後 會 對 原 住 民 更 明 確\n\n16\n00:05:19,296 --> 00:05:32,307\n第 二 、 這 個 法 一 定 會 衝 擊 到 縣 市 政 府 跟 鄉 國 所 甚 至 於 部 落 , 所 以 我 們 希 望 更 完 備 它 的 討 論 。 我 希 望 說 我 們 這 個 草 案 我 們 也 要 趕 快 來 討 論 , 來 跟 委 員 提 出 來 的 案 , 我 們 一 起 來 討 論 會 更 完 備 。\n\n17\n00:05:41,295 --> 00:06:04,128\n現 在 大 家 在 問 的 是 還 沒 看 到 院 板 對 嗎 ? 那 你 們 院 板 現 在 在 哪 裡 ? 什 麼 時 候 要 送 進 來 ? 是 不 是 應 該 要 一 起 來 討 論 才 可 以 把 彼 此 之 間 的 衝 突 更 完 備 呢 ? 目 前 我 所 知 道 那 個 信 息 就 是 說 還 在 跟 地 方 政 府 有 一 些 比 較 細 的 部 分 還 在 跟 他 們 做 討 論 。 討 論 好 的 時 候 我 們 的 草 案 就 會 提 出 來 。\n\n18\n00:06:05,196 --> 00:06:31,721\n好 所 以 現 在 所 以 大 概 什 麼 時 候 才 會 送 院 版 因 為 現 在 我 們 已 經 有 四 個 委 員 的 版 本 了 已 經 在 這 裡 了 那 也 準 備 要 實 質 審 查 了 可 是 還 是 沒 有 看 到 院 版 那 既 然 我 們 實 質 要 施 行 上 還 有 更 多 要 跟 地 方 政 府 討 論 的 部 分 是 不 是 你 們 也 給 一 個 時 程 大 家 才 知 道 說 接 下 來 我 們 到 底 具 體 收 攏 這 個 意 見 才 可 以 送 出 這 個 版 本 嗎\n\n19\n00:06:32,481 --> 00:06:56,768\n我 們 會 盡 快 開 公 聽 會 然 後 來 進 一 步 提 出 我 們 的 版 本 好 我 支 持 啊 我 覺 得 這 個 公 聽 會 應 該 要 開 因 為 這 個 攸 關 地 方 政 府 嘛 所 以 其 實 應 該 要 到 各 個 縣 市 有 受 到 影 響 的 地 方 政 府 跟 他 們 做 實 質 的 討 論 對 嗎 是 好 那 希 望 我 們 這 個 公 聽 會 趕 快 來 促 成 然 後 趕 快 把 最 後 的 院 版 訂 案 好 嗎 好 謝 謝 主 委\n\n20\n00:07:00,475 --> 00:07:00,938\n好 謝 謝 黃 捷 委 員 的 質 詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8827\t10312\t謝謝 謝謝主席我們請曾主委\n26583\t41772\t主委 知道說最近啊我們立法院都在討論有三個跟花東然後跟可能會經過花東的三個法案包括環島高鐵國道6號東延還有花東快不知道主委知不知道知道\n43413\t52323\t這三個法案我們原民會有沒有相關的業務會經過你們的評估不知道你們內部有沒有先行討論了呢?\n57793\t76341\t應該要經過原住民的部落或者是說希望要開發原住民的土地的話必須要這個取得原住民部落的諮商的同意沒錯 這就是我想要知道的因為這三個法案現在就是大家也估算說經費的需求超過兩兆\n77902\t95077\t那要求我們行政機關要在10年內蓋完可是因為這些法案到目前都還沒有實質的討論也沒有任何的評估就已經被全案保留送出交通委員會並且排入到院會準備二三讀的議程了只是到現在還沒有審到\n96718\t119398\t那之前交通部其實也有評估過說像花東塊至少會經過11個原民的部落那甚至也會經過像剛剛主委說的有非常多是包括原住民族部落的傳統領域也有可能會徵收到原住民族的土地才能完成的甚至呢對於部落的環境\n120299\t120439\t請署長解釋\n149148\t175183\t那針對這個可能會影響到的11個部落那這個部份我們會去協助他們就是說去讓他們了解說整個慈善同義要怎麼樣去進行因為有很多部落他其實對這個部份非常的陌生沒錯這就是我們擔心的在部落們都還非常陌生甚至都還不清楚的情況下這個這三個法就已經被送到院會甚至被排入議程了\n176468\t199482\t所以我想要講的是現在其實我們原基法裡面有明定這樣的精神如果政府要在原住民族的土地或是部落或是周邊的一定範圍內要從事任何土地的開發公共的開發必須要經諮商並且取得原住民族或是部落的同意並且參與並且跟原住民族來分享相關的利益這個在你們業務報告裡面其實也有提到說接下來我們應該要來\n203304\t221722\t來修這個諮商取得原住民族部落的同意的參與辦法那當然我很肯定只是說現在像是這三個法就已經迫在眉睫囉那現在我們如果有任何原住民族相關的會影響到他們權益的拜託我們原民會一定要做第一層的把關好嗎好\n224659\t249513\t我希望說像是在這三案裡面現在主人的立場是什麼然後你們原民會的角色是什麼一定都要積極的發聲不要讓原住民族的土地正義在這種多數暴力的情況下被強行碾壓那再來提到一下今天的這個法我想要請教的是因為其實我們現在都有在做相關的都是原住民族的發展的政策對嗎\n251734\t258262\t對。然後就你們的這個業務報告裡面也有提到我們有一些相關的發展的方案報告對嗎?\n260472\t281151\t我們現在訂這個發展的條例跟這個發展的方案之間是如何搭配的?也就是說我想知道的是我們現在訂這個法的用意以及它接下來若真的要施行到底對於發展的方案上面是有什麼具體的幫助以及什麼樣的法律授權?\n283344\t297876\t這個定這個都市的這個發展條例最主要是在55個鄉以外的都會尤其是超過1500個人涉及超過1500個人的原住民的話會有更明確的照顧\n299397\t317527\t因為像很多在原鄉施行的計畫沒有辦法在這個都會區來做照顧比如說在都會區裡面要蓋聚會所啦或者是一些相關語言文化的設施他必須要有這樣的一個法以後會對原住民更明確\n319296\t332307\t第二、這個法一定會衝擊到縣市政府跟鄉國所甚至於部落,所以我們希望更完備它的討論。我希望說我們這個草案我們也要趕快來討論,來跟委員提出來的案,我們一起來討論會更完備。\n341295\t364128\t現在大家在問的是還沒看到院板對嗎?那你們院板現在在哪裡?什麼時候要送進來?是不是應該要一起來討論才可以把彼此之間的衝突更完備呢?目前我所知道那個信息就是說還在跟地方政府有一些比較細的部分還在跟他們做討論。討論好的時候我們的草案就會提出來。\n365196\t391721\t好 所以現在所以大概什麼時候才會送院版因為現在我們已經有四個委員的版本了已經在這裡了那也準備要實質審查了可是還是沒有看到院版那既然我們實質要施行上還有更多要跟地方政府討論的部分是不是你們也給一個時程大家才知道說接下來我們到底具體收攏這個意見才可以送出這個版本嗎\n392481\t416768\t我們會盡快開公聽會然後來進一步提出我們的版本好我支持啊我覺得這個公聽會應該要開因為這個攸關地方政府嘛所以其實應該要到各個縣市有受到影響的地方政府跟他們做實質的討論對嗎是好那希望我們這個公聽會趕快來促成然後趕快把最後的院版訂案好嗎好謝謝主委\n420475\t420938\t好 謝謝黃捷委員的質詢\n","txt":"謝謝 謝謝主席我們請曾主委\n主委 知道說最近啊我們立法院都在討論有三個跟花東然後跟可能會經過花東的三個法案包括環島高鐵國道6號東延還有花東快不知道主委知不知道知道\n這三個法案我們原民會有沒有相關的業務會經過你們的評估不知道你們內部有沒有先行討論了呢?\n應該要經過原住民的部落或者是說希望要開發原住民的土地的話必須要這個取得原住民部落的諮商的同意沒錯 這就是我想要知道的因為這三個法案現在就是大家也估算說經費的需求超過兩兆\n那要求我們行政機關要在10年內蓋完可是因為這些法案到目前都還沒有實質的討論也沒有任何的評估就已經被全案保留送出交通委員會並且排入到院會準備二三讀的議程了只是到現在還沒有審到\n那之前交通部其實也有評估過說像花東塊至少會經過11個原民的部落那甚至也會經過像剛剛主委說的有非常多是包括原住民族部落的傳統領域也有可能會徵收到原住民族的土地才能完成的甚至呢對於部落的環境\n請署長解釋\n那針對這個可能會影響到的11個部落那這個部份我們會去協助他們就是說去讓他們了解說整個慈善同義要怎麼樣去進行因為有很多部落他其實對這個部份非常的陌生沒錯這就是我們擔心的在部落們都還非常陌生甚至都還不清楚的情況下這個這三個法就已經被送到院會甚至被排入議程了\n所以我想要講的是現在其實我們原基法裡面有明定這樣的精神如果政府要在原住民族的土地或是部落或是周邊的一定範圍內要從事任何土地的開發公共的開發必須要經諮商並且取得原住民族或是部落的同意並且參與並且跟原住民族來分享相關的利益這個在你們業務報告裡面其實也有提到說接下來我們應該要來\n來修這個諮商取得原住民族部落的同意的參與辦法那當然我很肯定只是說現在像是這三個法就已經迫在眉睫囉那現在我們如果有任何原住民族相關的會影響到他們權益的拜託我們原民會一定要做第一層的把關好嗎好\n我希望說像是在這三案裡面現在主人的立場是什麼然後你們原民會的角色是什麼一定都要積極的發聲不要讓原住民族的土地正義在這種多數暴力的情況下被強行碾壓那再來提到一下今天的這個法我想要請教的是因為其實我們現在都有在做相關的都是原住民族的發展的政策對嗎\n對。然後就你們的這個業務報告裡面也有提到我們有一些相關的發展的方案報告對嗎?\n我們現在訂這個發展的條例跟這個發展的方案之間是如何搭配的?也就是說我想知道的是我們現在訂這個法的用意以及它接下來若真的要施行到底對於發展的方案上面是有什麼具體的幫助以及什麼樣的法律授權?\n這個定這個都市的這個發展條例最主要是在55個鄉以外的都會尤其是超過1500個人涉及超過1500個人的原住民的話會有更明確的照顧\n因為像很多在原鄉施行的計畫沒有辦法在這個都會區來做照顧比如說在都會區裡面要蓋聚會所啦或者是一些相關語言文化的設施他必須要有這樣的一個法以後會對原住民更明確\n第二、這個法一定會衝擊到縣市政府跟鄉國所甚至於部落,所以我們希望更完備它的討論。我希望說我們這個草案我們也要趕快來討論,來跟委員提出來的案,我們一起來討論會更完備。\n現在大家在問的是還沒看到院板對嗎?那你們院板現在在哪裡?什麼時候要送進來?是不是應該要一起來討論才可以把彼此之間的衝突更完備呢?目前我所知道那個信息就是說還在跟地方政府有一些比較細的部分還在跟他們做討論。討論好的時候我們的草案就會提出來。\n好 所以現在所以大概什麼時候才會送院版因為現在我們已經有四個委員的版本了已經在這裡了那也準備要實質審查了可是還是沒有看到院版那既然我們實質要施行上還有更多要跟地方政府討論的部分是不是你們也給一個時程大家才知道說接下來我們到底具體收攏這個意見才可以送出這個版本嗎\n我們會盡快開公聽會然後來進一步提出我們的版本好我支持啊我覺得這個公聽會應該要開因為這個攸關地方政府嘛所以其實應該要到各個縣市有受到影響的地方政府跟他們做實質的討論對嗎是好那希望我們這個公聽會趕快來促成然後趕快把最後的院版訂案好嗎好謝謝主委\n好 謝謝黃捷委員的質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.827 --> 00:10.312\n謝 謝 謝 謝 主 席 我 們 請 曾 主 委\n\n00:26.583 --> 00:41.772\n主 委 知 道 說 最 近 啊 我 們 立 法 院 都 在 討 論 有 三 個 跟 花 東 然 後 跟 可 能 會 經 過 花 東 的 三 個 法 案 包 括 環 島 高 鐵 國 道 6 號 東 延 還 有 花 東 快 不 知 道 主 委 知 不 知 道 知 道\n\n00:43.413 --> 00:52.323\n這 三 個 法 案 我 們 原 民 會 有 沒 有 相 關 的 業 務 會 經 過 你 們 的 評 估 不 知 道 你 們 內 部 有 沒 有 先 行 討 論 了 呢 ?\n\n00:57.793 --> 01:16.341\n應 該 要 經 過 原 住 民 的 部 落 或 者 是 說 希 望 要 開 發 原 住 民 的 土 地 的 話 必 須 要 這 個 取 得 原 住 民 部 落 的 諮 商 的 同 意 沒 錯 這 就 是 我 想 要 知 道 的 因 為 這 三 個 法 案 現 在 就 是 大 家 也 估 算 說 經 費 的 需 求 超 過 兩 兆\n\n01:17.902 --> 01:35.077\n那 要 求 我 們 行 政 機 關 要 在 1 0 年 內 蓋 完 可 是 因 為 這 些 法 案 到 目 前 都 還 沒 有 實 質 的 討 論 也 沒 有 任 何 的 評 估 就 已 經 被 全 案 保 留 送 出 交 通 委 員 會 並 且 排 入 到 院 會 準 備 二 三 讀 的 議 程 了 只 是 到 現 在 還 沒 有 審 到\n\n01:36.718 --> 01:59.398\n那 之 前 交 通 部 其 實 也 有 評 估 過 說 像 花 東 塊 至 少 會 經 過 1 1 個 原 民 的 部 落 那 甚 至 也 會 經 過 像 剛 剛 主 委 說 的 有 非 常 多 是 包 括 原 住 民 族 部 落 的 傳 統 領 域 也 有 可 能 會 徵 收 到 原 住 民 族 的 土 地 才 能 完 成 的 甚 至 呢 對 於 部 落 的 環 境\n\n02:00.299 --> 02:00.439\n請 署 長 解 釋\n\n02:29.148 --> 02:55.183\n那 針 對 這 個 可 能 會 影 響 到 的 1 1 個 部 落 那 這 個 部 份 我 們 會 去 協 助 他 們 就 是 說 去 讓 他 們 了 解 說 整 個 慈 善 同 義 要 怎 麼 樣 去 進 行 因 為 有 很 多 部 落 他 其 實 對 這 個 部 份 非 常 的 陌 生 沒 錯 這 就 是 我 們 擔 心 的 在 部 落 們 都 還 非 常 陌 生 甚 至 都 還 不 清 楚 的 情 況 下 這 個 這 三 個 法 就 已 經 被 送 到 院 會 甚 至 被 排 入 議 程 了\n\n02:56.468 --> 03:19.482\n所 以 我 想 要 講 的 是 現 在 其 實 我 們 原 基 法 裡 面 有 明 定 這 樣 的 精 神 如 果 政 府 要 在 原 住 民 族 的 土 地 或 是 部 落 或 是 周 邊 的 一 定 範 圍 內 要 從 事 任 何 土 地 的 開 發 公 共 的 開 發 必 須 要 經 諮 商 並 且 取 得 原 住 民 族 或 是 部 落 的 同 意 並 且 參 與 並 且 跟 原 住 民 族 來 分 享 相 關 的 利 益 這 個 在 你 們 業 務 報 告 裡 面 其 實 也 有 提 到 說 接 下 來 我 們 應 該 要 來\n\n03:23.304 --> 03:41.722\n來 修 這 個 諮 商 取 得 原 住 民 族 部 落 的 同 意 的 參 與 辦 法 那 當 然 我 很 肯 定 只 是 說 現 在 像 是 這 三 個 法 就 已 經 迫 在 眉 睫 囉 那 現 在 我 們 如 果 有 任 何 原 住 民 族 相 關 的 會 影 響 到 他 們 權 益 的 拜 託 我 們 原 民 會 一 定 要 做 第 一 層 的 把 關 好 嗎 好\n\n03:44.659 --> 04:09.513\n我 希 望 說 像 是 在 這 三 案 裡 面 現 在 主 人 的 立 場 是 什 麼 然 後 你 們 原 民 會 的 角 色 是 什 麼 一 定 都 要 積 極 的 發 聲 不 要 讓 原 住 民 族 的 土 地 正 義 在 這 種 多 數 暴 力 的 情 況 下 被 強 行 碾 壓 那 再 來 提 到 一 下 今 天 的 這 個 法 我 想 要 請 教 的 是 因 為 其 實 我 們 現 在 都 有 在 做 相 關 的 都 是 原 住 民 族 的 發 展 的 政 策 對 嗎\n\n04:11.734 --> 04:18.262\n對 。 然 後 就 你 們 的 這 個 業 務 報 告 裡 面 也 有 提 到 我 們 有 一 些 相 關 的 發 展 的 方 案 報 告 對 嗎 ?\n\n04:20.472 --> 04:41.151\n我 們 現 在 訂 這 個 發 展 的 條 例 跟 這 個 發 展 的 方 案 之 間 是 如 何 搭 配 的 ? 也 就 是 說 我 想 知 道 的 是 我 們 現 在 訂 這 個 法 的 用 意 以 及 它 接 下 來 若 真 的 要 施 行 到 底 對 於 發 展 的 方 案 上 面 是 有 什 麼 具 體 的 幫 助 以 及 什 麼 樣 的 法 律 授 權 ?\n\n04:43.344 --> 04:57.876\n這 個 定 這 個 都 市 的 這 個 發 展 條 例 最 主 要 是 在 5 5 個 鄉 以 外 的 都 會 尤 其 是 超 過 1 5 0 0 個 人 涉 及 超 過 1 5 0 0 個 人 的 原 住 民 的 話 會 有 更 明 確 的 照 顧\n\n04:59.397 --> 05:17.527\n因 為 像 很 多 在 原 鄉 施 行 的 計 畫 沒 有 辦 法 在 這 個 都 會 區 來 做 照 顧 比 如 說 在 都 會 區 裡 面 要 蓋 聚 會 所 啦 或 者 是 一 些 相 關 語 言 文 化 的 設 施 他 必 須 要 有 這 樣 的 一 個 法 以 後 會 對 原 住 民 更 明 確\n\n05:19.296 --> 05:32.307\n第 二 、 這 個 法 一 定 會 衝 擊 到 縣 市 政 府 跟 鄉 國 所 甚 至 於 部 落 , 所 以 我 們 希 望 更 完 備 它 的 討 論 。 我 希 望 說 我 們 這 個 草 案 我 們 也 要 趕 快 來 討 論 , 來 跟 委 員 提 出 來 的 案 , 我 們 一 起 來 討 論 會 更 完 備 。\n\n05:41.295 --> 06:04.128\n現 在 大 家 在 問 的 是 還 沒 看 到 院 板 對 嗎 ? 那 你 們 院 板 現 在 在 哪 裡 ? 什 麼 時 候 要 送 進 來 ? 是 不 是 應 該 要 一 起 來 討 論 才 可 以 把 彼 此 之 間 的 衝 突 更 完 備 呢 ? 目 前 我 所 知 道 那 個 信 息 就 是 說 還 在 跟 地 方 政 府 有 一 些 比 較 細 的 部 分 還 在 跟 他 們 做 討 論 。 討 論 好 的 時 候 我 們 的 草 案 就 會 提 出 來 。\n\n06:05.196 --> 06:31.721\n好 所 以 現 在 所 以 大 概 什 麼 時 候 才 會 送 院 版 因 為 現 在 我 們 已 經 有 四 個 委 員 的 版 本 了 已 經 在 這 裡 了 那 也 準 備 要 實 質 審 查 了 可 是 還 是 沒 有 看 到 院 版 那 既 然 我 們 實 質 要 施 行 上 還 有 更 多 要 跟 地 方 政 府 討 論 的 部 分 是 不 是 你 們 也 給 一 個 時 程 大 家 才 知 道 說 接 下 來 我 們 到 底 具 體 收 攏 這 個 意 見 才 可 以 送 出 這 個 版 本 嗎\n\n06:32.481 --> 06:56.768\n我 們 會 盡 快 開 公 聽 會 然 後 來 進 一 步 提 出 我 們 的 版 本 好 我 支 持 啊 我 覺 得 這 個 公 聽 會 應 該 要 開 因 為 這 個 攸 關 地 方 政 府 嘛 所 以 其 實 應 該 要 到 各 個 縣 市 有 受 到 影 響 的 地 方 政 府 跟 他 們 做 實 質 的 討 論 對 嗎 是 好 那 希 望 我 們 這 個 公 聽 會 趕 快 來 促 成 然 後 趕 快 把 最 後 的 院 版 訂 案 好 嗎 好 謝 謝 主 委\n\n07:00.475 --> 07:00.938\n好 謝 謝 黃 捷 委 員 的 質 詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.827,"end":10.312,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席我們請曾主委"},{"start":26.583,"end":41.772,"text":"主委 知道說最近啊我們立法院都在討論有三個跟花東然後跟可能會經過花東的三個法案包括環島高鐵國道6號東延還有花東快不知道主委知不知道知道"},{"start":43.413,"end":52.323,"text":"這三個法案我們原民會有沒有相關的業務會經過你們的評估不知道你們內部有沒有先行討論了呢?"},{"start":57.793,"end":76.341,"text":"應該要經過原住民的部落或者是說希望要開發原住民的土地的話必須要這個取得原住民部落的諮商的同意沒錯 這就是我想要知道的因為這三個法案現在就是大家也估算說經費的需求超過兩兆"},{"start":77.902,"end":95.077,"text":"那要求我們行政機關要在10年內蓋完可是因為這些法案到目前都還沒有實質的討論也沒有任何的評估就已經被全案保留送出交通委員會並且排入到院會準備二三讀的議程了只是到現在還沒有審到"},{"start":96.718,"end":119.398,"text":"那之前交通部其實也有評估過說像花東塊至少會經過11個原民的部落那甚至也會經過像剛剛主委說的有非常多是包括原住民族部落的傳統領域也有可能會徵收到原住民族的土地才能完成的甚至呢對於部落的環境"},{"start":120.299,"end":120.439,"text":"請署長解釋"},{"start":149.148,"end":175.183,"text":"那針對這個可能會影響到的11個部落那這個部份我們會去協助他們就是說去讓他們了解說整個慈善同義要怎麼樣去進行因為有很多部落他其實對這個部份非常的陌生沒錯這就是我們擔心的在部落們都還非常陌生甚至都還不清楚的情況下這個這三個法就已經被送到院會甚至被排入議程了"},{"start":176.468,"end":199.482,"text":"所以我想要講的是現在其實我們原基法裡面有明定這樣的精神如果政府要在原住民族的土地或是部落或是周邊的一定範圍內要從事任何土地的開發公共的開發必須要經諮商並且取得原住民族或是部落的同意並且參與並且跟原住民族來分享相關的利益這個在你們業務報告裡面其實也有提到說接下來我們應該要來"},{"start":203.304,"end":221.722,"text":"來修這個諮商取得原住民族部落的同意的參與辦法那當然我很肯定只是說現在像是這三個法就已經迫在眉睫囉那現在我們如果有任何原住民族相關的會影響到他們權益的拜託我們原民會一定要做第一層的把關好嗎好"},{"start":224.659,"end":249.513,"text":"我希望說像是在這三案裡面現在主人的立場是什麼然後你們原民會的角色是什麼一定都要積極的發聲不要讓原住民族的土地正義在這種多數暴力的情況下被強行碾壓那再來提到一下今天的這個法我想要請教的是因為其實我們現在都有在做相關的都是原住民族的發展的政策對嗎"},{"start":251.734,"end":258.262,"text":"對。然後就你們的這個業務報告裡面也有提到我們有一些相關的發展的方案報告對嗎?"},{"start":260.472,"end":281.151,"text":"我們現在訂這個發展的條例跟這個發展的方案之間是如何搭配的?也就是說我想知道的是我們現在訂這個法的用意以及它接下來若真的要施行到底對於發展的方案上面是有什麼具體的幫助以及什麼樣的法律授權?"},{"start":283.344,"end":297.876,"text":"這個定這個都市的這個發展條例最主要是在55個鄉以外的都會尤其是超過1500個人涉及超過1500個人的原住民的話會有更明確的照顧"},{"start":299.397,"end":317.527,"text":"因為像很多在原鄉施行的計畫沒有辦法在這個都會區來做照顧比如說在都會區裡面要蓋聚會所啦或者是一些相關語言文化的設施他必須要有這樣的一個法以後會對原住民更明確"},{"start":319.296,"end":332.307,"text":"第二、這個法一定會衝擊到縣市政府跟鄉國所甚至於部落,所以我們希望更完備它的討論。我希望說我們這個草案我們也要趕快來討論,來跟委員提出來的案,我們一起來討論會更完備。"},{"start":341.295,"end":364.128,"text":"現在大家在問的是還沒看到院板對嗎?那你們院板現在在哪裡?什麼時候要送進來?是不是應該要一起來討論才可以把彼此之間的衝突更完備呢?目前我所知道那個信息就是說還在跟地方政府有一些比較細的部分還在跟他們做討論。討論好的時候我們的草案就會提出來。"},{"start":365.196,"end":391.721,"text":"好 所以現在所以大概什麼時候才會送院版因為現在我們已經有四個委員的版本了已經在這裡了那也準備要實質審查了可是還是沒有看到院版那既然我們實質要施行上還有更多要跟地方政府討論的部分是不是你們也給一個時程大家才知道說接下來我們到底具體收攏這個意見才可以送出這個版本嗎"},{"start":392.481,"end":416.768,"text":"我們會盡快開公聽會然後來進一步提出我們的版本好我支持啊我覺得這個公聽會應該要開因為這個攸關地方政府嘛所以其實應該要到各個縣市有受到影響的地方政府跟他們做實質的討論對嗎是好那希望我們這個公聽會趕快來促成然後趕快把最後的院版訂案好嗎好謝謝主委"},{"start":420.475,"end":420.938,"text":"好 謝謝黃捷委員的質詢"}]}}}}