{"id":153353,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebacf277e3c6700e97bea2e07370b40154bbeba37a180c9b1cd15a52f385e0ba14d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:41:31 - 10:57:17","影片長度":"00:15:46","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":946,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:57:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:41:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":509,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時41分）主席、各位早安。請次長。"],["主席：請呂次長。"],["林委員淑芬：次長你好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：最近一次你到餐廳用餐是什麼時候？"],["呂次長建德：最近一次到餐廳用餐，報告委員，我來……"],["林委員淑芬：你想不起來？OK……"],["呂次長建德：我來衛福部之後……"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係。那你有沒有用過QR Code點餐？"],["呂次長建德：這個有。"],["林委員淑芬：點餐以後有使用線上支付結帳嗎？線上支付。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為我的IT能力不太好。"],["林委員淑芬：是別人替你服務的吧！"],["呂次長建德：不敢、不敢。"],["林委員淑芬：你有沒有到過麥當勞、肯德基、摩斯漢堡的自助點餐機點過餐？自己操作。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，沒有，我都用現金。抱歉。"],["林委員淑芬：不是現金，我是說自助點餐機，自己操作，沒有透過櫃檯、點餐人員。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為我算是比較有年歲的人，麥當勞我比較不……"],["林委員淑芬：你幾歲？抱歉，這個是不應該回答的啦！"],["呂次長建德：抱歉、抱歉、抱歉，麥當勞我……"],["林委員淑芬：我在這裡必須要請你回答，因為這跟這個有關。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我……"],["林委員淑芬：你幾歲了啦？抱歉，可是這個跟我的主題有關哪！"],["呂次長建德：我屬馬。我55年次啦！1966年，我55年次。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣是幾歲？"],["呂次長建德：今年58。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我現在要跟你講，數發部在2023年發布了「112年數位發展調查報告」，其報告內容指出，從年齡差異來看，個人上網率大概以60歲為分界，12至59歲民眾上網率達91.9%以上，但是60至64歲就下降至83.7%、65歲以上民眾的上網率只有51.6%，換言之大概60歲……抱歉，我問你年齡是因為這個原因。"],["呂次長建德：是、是、是。"],["林委員淑芬：60歲以上就有數位落差。近五成的65歲以上長者不會使用網路，這只是使用網路喔！你只要會用LINE，就有在使用網路了。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：現在我告訴你，可是這裡面有一個更精準的分析，這個報告裡面有一個叫做資訊與通信科技近用權，從ICT近用、使用與素養的年齡異同彙整表可以看得出來，如果不要講只是上網的部分，從資訊查詢和行動支付兩項指標來看，60至64歲開始就低於全體平均值，但是65以上的部分呈現雪崩式下滑，65歲以上使用網路做資訊查詢的只有18%、使用行動支付的只有10.6%。因此以65歲以上使用資訊查詢和行動支付這兩個指標來看的話，其實是雪崩式下滑，幾乎不會啦！九成的人沒有使用電子支付。","你剛才說你有在使用電子支付還是沒有？次長有沒有LINE Pay、Google Pay、台灣Pay？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：你58歲就沒有使用了！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，Google Pay是有，但我不知道要怎麼使用，抱歉，我趕快回去研究怎麼操作。"],["林委員淑芬：次長都不會用了。我很開心聽到連次長都不會用，看到這種現象，你就知道問題有多嚴重，我現在才要討論問題。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["林委員淑芬：關於銀髮族的數位落差困境，現在的社會越來越科技化，連鎖餐廳一般都是手機點餐，app點餐的模式逐漸普及，很多長輩其實是無所適從，現在AI的發展日新月異，長者的日常生活注定跟社會環境是越來越衝突，因為高齡上的數位落差，變成高齡外出的挫折，然後變成高齡歧視，後來就變成高齡被邊緣化，一個階段一個階段，社會對年輕人好像越來越方便，網路越來越方便，可是老人卻越來越邊緣，因為數位落差，結果讓老人不敢走出去！以點餐來講，你知道很多餐廳是手機和平板點餐，對高齡者來講，他有什麼考驗？次長，你想得到他會有什麼障礙？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，其實有幾個部分，第一就是可能字體大小，還有另外一方面……"],["林委員淑芬：字太小是因為老花眼，然後手指不靈敏，不會使用這個系統……"],["呂次長建德：是的，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：根據弘道老人福利基金會的處長陳奐宇表示，長者的科技落差在「科技點餐」愈來愈普及的現代社會中更加困窘，連到超市買東西都因為不擅使用app而遭排隊等待的客人嘲諷，有人會冷言冷語的說：不會買就不要出來。其實不是長者，包括你，你是中年啦，對科技點餐也有障礙，即便你要去適應和學習也要花時間。所以弘道基金會也收到長輩遇到類似困擾的抱怨，像手機點餐點了老半天，一直點卻沒有辦法進入下一步，或是點到最後一個步驟不小心又滑到上一頁，結果變成又得重來；有時候點餐的螢幕字體太小，老花眼看不到，這些都是重重的障礙和阻礙，而這只是點餐喔，遇到採購的時候，也會被歧視，很多知名賣場會推他們自己的app，他們在推app的時候，會員制要先行，所以實體會員卡不能使用，然後叫大家都要用app結帳，如果操作不順就會讓結帳的時間拉很長，看到後面大排長龍，長輩壓力也很大，後面的顧客因為要趕時間結帳，最後也一樣一句話：不會買就不要出來！遇到這種狀況，你說店員可以幫他操作，但賣場為什麼要推使用app、自助結帳等等？就是因為要節省人力成本，我們以為店員會來幫他，但根本就沒有多餘的店員可以幫忙，所以你說叫店員過來，他可能會拒絕，表示手邊工作都忙不完了，怎麼還會去幫忙操作！大部分都會說可不可以去別的櫃檯結帳，重新去別的櫃檯排隊這樣子。","再談就醫的部分。這種情形不是說不出去餐廳吃飯就沒事了，不要去super market買東西就沒事了，不是喔！現在連老人家看醫生也遇到同樣問題，現在多數醫療院所都可以線上掛號，而且要透過線上查看看診的進度，那麼只會使用老人機的長輩該怎麼辦？沒有人協助怎麼辦？只好從早上坐到中午，一直坐在那裡。通常大型醫院因為敬老會協助長輩，次長知道他們提供的協助是針對幾歲的長者嗎？"],["呂次長建德：好像都是志工嘛！志工在那邊提供……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！志工都提供幾歲長者服務，你知道嗎？所謂的醫院給敬老的協助是幾歲，你知道嗎？"],["呂次長建德：大概80歲吧！"],["林委員淑芬：85歲！次長，這些問題都很嚴重，我們今天講說要給老人什麼福利、什麼照顧，生活上的這些數位落差，讓他受到的困擾和遭遇，其實就是很大的社會排斥和排擠了。下載醫院的app可以線上查詢推估看診時間，但他們沒有辦法推估時間，只好一直等，對於經常出入醫院的長輩而言，只要就診、回診，不是太早到，就是預估錯誤而晚到，導致過號，整個時間都耗在那裡。這不是只有老人福利團體的觀察，連年輕人自己都觀察到如果沒有年輕人，自己的爸爸媽媽也是一樣，可是很多爸爸媽媽都說不要麻煩年輕人，到時候如果沒有年輕人幫忙或不想麻煩年輕人，就乾脆不要外出消費，但這樣的狀況，符合我們國家提升高齡者跟社會連結的政策目標嗎？次長。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，確實在目前這個資訊社會裡，委員剛剛提到的數位落差，我們要趕快趕上去，我也跟委員報告，目前在社區照護關懷據點和長青學苑，都有推類似這樣的對策方案。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！我們都說得很好聽，2022年行政院核定了因應超高齡社會對策方案，提到我們2026年會進入超高齡社會，老人人口占總人口比率會到20.8%，2036年會達到28%，進入極高齡社會的國家，所以你們當然也要有一些政策，包括提升高齡者數位連結、降低高齡者數位落差的政策，就如你所說，在社區大學裡有教學，可是你知道社區大學是教什麼嗎？教什麼內容？"],["呂次長建德：以我過去在臺中服務的經驗，大概就是如何上網，以及對整個設備使用的一些knowledge。"],["林委員淑芬：你講了一部分而已啦，社區大學、關懷據點是教你怎麼使用FB、使用通訊軟體LINE，教你怎麼玩遊戲調劑身心，但是這跟我剛才講的那一些不一樣，也不符合需求，現在的老人大概用LINE都可以，但是如何使用QR Code點餐、如何使用實體點餐機點餐、電子支付、如何查找資訊，他們並不熟悉。通常他們會亂傳假訊息，我就會跟他們說：你都有智慧手機了，為什麼不在Google裡查詢一下，關鍵字輸入就可以了。但他們完全不會，人手一機，但完全不會，他也沒有辦法辨別網路詐騙，更不要講用手機進行網路掛號和查看看診進度。重點是社區大學，就是你所謂的國家整體改善數位落差的政策和教學，都是紙上談兵，都是在那裡看影片，然後照著做，聽完以後，老人家就是鴨子聽雷啦！聽完後，不知道在說什麼，就一頭霧水！所以真正要做的是什麼你知道嗎？應該要帶著長輩走出去實際操作，就是你們跟一些企業合作，請他們在某些時段讓長輩可以去練習外出課程，真正去操作，不要只是在課堂上教學，然後紙上談兵與現實脫節。","我舉韓國的例子說明，你就知道我們衛福部真的從來沒有思考如何解決這部分的障礙和問題。韓國2022年因為疫情加速了整個社會數位化的時代，全韓國電子自助機臺激增三萬臺，是2019年的3倍之多，結果很多高齡者望機興嘆，因為通通都不會，從出示快篩的陰性報告、接種證明到點餐、購買票券通通電子化，南韓的銀髮族根本不熟悉這些電子產品，所以外出一趟壓力非常大，感覺他被社會邊緣化了，但又害怕丟臉，所以乾脆不外出避免消費，其實這樣的數位落差讓高齡者更加遠離社會。後來首爾做了什麼你知道嗎？他們增設了慢機臺，專門for長輩，給他們慢慢操作，不要有壓力，因為這是長輩慢慢的操作臺。然後京畿大學也幫長輩們上數位課，把電子機臺搬進樂齡課程，從按鍵說明到使用程序，一切手把手教學，還讓長輩直接上機練習。除此之外，疫情期間韓國因為銀行業務全面調整，兩年內關閉了600家銀行分行，全面擴大網路金融服務，但是全韓國60到70歲的民眾網路銀行使用率到目前只有37%，70歲以上的長者更只有一成，南韓的銀髮族說沒有人幫忙下載網銀app，太複雜了，他們不會，所以操作時只能看帳戶明細，也不敢轉帳，因為大家都很忙，所以也不敢麻煩別人，結果反彈的聲浪排山倒海，然後南韓各大銀行除了維持少數分行運作以外，開始增設大字的機臺，還派出行動銀行專車。","時間關係，我最後再講結論就好了。首爾女子大學社會福祉學系教授提到，數位落差使長輩的社交範圍縮小，甚至遭到破壞，他們會因此感到孤單、孤獨，老人輕生率可能提高，而縮小生活中的數位落差，防止長輩們出現社會疏離感，打造友善的高齡環境，是後疫情時代的重要課題。因應這個狀況，邁向超高齡社會，勢必一定要加速調整精進政府的政策重點。","次長，數位落差現行的執行策略和具體工作，你們一定要好好去盤點，不要在那裡紙上談兵，而且也不是實際生活需要的，你要針對高齡者的日常生活進行數位科技應用，擴大所有關懷據點、社區大學裡具體生活能力的教導課程。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣你知道嗎？你們都沒做，基本上是完全沒有思考過這樣的問題。"],["呂次長建德：好，OK。"],["主席：好，謝謝林……"],["林委員淑芬：你自己都不會了，應該知道別人更慘！謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153353","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153353","tool":"pyannote","id":"153353-pyannote"},"job_id":"Kq58zSYER5Bm3U6s","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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936.995, \"end\": 937.015, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"﹑\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,790 --> 00:00:26,210\n委 員 資 訊 。 主 席 , 各 位 大 家 早 安 。 是 不 是 還 請 我 們 次 長 。 好 , 請 李 次 長 。 次 長 你 好 。 最 近 一 次 你 到 餐 廳 用 餐 是 什 麼 時 候 ?\n\n2\n00:00:28,806 --> 00:00:54,899\n最 近 一 次 到 餐 廳 用 餐 。 報 告 委 員 我 來 復 複 之 後 。 沒 關 係 。 那 你 有 沒 有 用 過 Q R C o d e 點 餐 ? 這 個 有 。 點 餐 以 後 有 使 用 線 上 支 付 結 帳 嗎 ? 線 上 支 付 。 報 告 委 員 因 為 我 那 個 I T 能 力 不 太 好 啦 。 你 ? 你 是 別 人 替 你 付 無 的 吧 ?\n\n3\n00:00:56,124 --> 00:01:09,727\n拜 託 委 員 , 沒 有 。 我 都 用 現 金 的 啦 。 抱 歉 抱 歉 。 不 是 啦 , 不 是 現 金 。 我 是 說 自 助 點 餐 機 欸 。 自 己 去 操 作 。 沒 有 櫃 台 , 沒 有 那 個 點 餐 人 員 的 。 拜 託 委 員 , 因 為 我 算 比 較 有 錢 的 人 齁 。 拜 託 委 員 , 你 幾 歲 ?\n\n4\n00:01:25,816 --> 00:01:41,002\n抱 歉 , 這 個 是 不 應 該 回 答 的 。 我 必 須 要 請 你 回 答 , 因 為 這 個 跟 這 個 有 關 。 你 幾 歲 了 啊 ? 抱 歉 。 可 是 這 個 跟 我 的 主 題 有 關 啊 。 我 太 壞 了 , 我 太 壞 了 。 我 外 國 女 主 啦 , 1 9 6 2 年 去 外 國 啦 。\n\n5\n00:01:48,513 --> 00:02:07,840\n我 五 十 五 年 次 啊 。 這 樣 是 幾 歲 ? 五 百 , 今 年 五 百 。 好 , 我 就 要 跟 你 講 喔 。 數 目 發 佈 在 2 0 2 3 年 發 佈 了 一 個 1 1 2 年 數 位 發 展 調 查 報 告 。 它 的 報 告 內 容 指 出 啊 , 從 年 齡 差 異 來 看 , 個 人 上 網 率 大 概 以 6 0 歲 為 分 界 。 1 2 到 5 9 歲 的 民 眾 上 網 率 達 9 1 . 9 % 以 上 。 但 是 6 0 到 6 4 歲 就 下 降 到 剩 下 8 3 . 7 % 。\n\n6\n00:02:17,623 --> 00:02:34,671\n﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲\n\n7\n00:02:47,677 --> 00:03:04,565\n他 這 個 報 告 裡 面 有 一 個 叫 資 訊 與 通 信 科 技 禁 用 權 I C T 這 個 禁 用 權 和 使 用 和 素 養 的 年 齡 異 同 會 証 表 那 可 以 看 得 出 來 資 訊 查 詢 如 果 不 要 講 直 上 網 從 資 訊 查 詢 和 行 動 支 付 兩 項 指 標 來 看 6 0 到 6 4 歲 都 開 始 就 低 於 全 體 的 平 均 值 但 是\n\n8\n00:03:16,850 --> 00:03:32,139\n﹑ 六 十 五 歲 以 上 呈 現 雪 崩 式 下 滑 ﹑ 六 十 五 歲 以 上 他 使 用 網 路 做 資 訊 查 詢 的 只 有 1 8 % ﹑ 使 用 行 動 支 付 的 只 有 1 0 % , 1 0 . 6 % ﹑\n\n9\n00:03:34,841 --> 00:03:50,135\n所 以 對 於 這 個 6 5 歲 以 上 使 用 資 訊 查 詢 和 行 動 支 付 的 這 個 兩 個 指 標 來 看 的 話 , 其 實 是 雪 崩 式 。 幾 乎 不 會 啦 ! 高 零 沒 有 在 用 電 子 支 付 的 啦 ! 你 剛 才 說 你 有 在 用 還 是 沒 有 ? 電 子 支 付 。 你 有 沒 有 來 配 ? G o o g l e 配 ? 台 灣 配 ? 市 長 有 沒 有 ? 沒 有 。\n\n10\n00:04:01,491 --> 00:04:05,297\n五 十 八 歲 的 沒 有 啊 ! 包 括 G o o g l e P a y 有 , 但 是\n\n11\n00:04:06,823 --> 00:04:14,805\n林 淑 芬 , 不 好 意 思 , 不 好 意 思 , 我 會 趕 快 回 去 , 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕\n\n12\n00:04:35,231 --> 00:04:55,224\n﹏ 那 現 在 A I 的 發 展 日 新 月 異 ﹏ 長 者 的 日 常 生 活 注 定 跟 社 會 環 境 其 實 是 越 來 越 衝 突 的 ﹏ 那 其 實 就 因 為 高 齡 上 的 數 位 落 差 ﹏ 然 後 變 成 高 齡 的 這 個 挫 折 ﹏ 外 出 的 挫 折 ﹏ 然 後 變 成 高 齡 歧 視 ﹏ 後 來 就 變 成 高 齡 被 邊 緣 化 ﹏\n\n13\n00:04:59,086 --> 00:05:20,554\n這 是 一 個 階 段 一 個 階 段 社 會 好 像 年 輕 人 越 來 越 方 便 網 路 越 來 越 方 便 可 是 呢 老 人 越 來 越 邊 緣 啊 因 為 數 位 落 差 讓 老 人 結 果 不 敢 走 出 去 不 敢 走 出 來 那 我 講 點 餐 來 講 光 是 你 知 道 餐 廳 很 多 手 機 和 平 板 點 餐 那 對 高 齡 者 來 講 他 有 什 麼 考 驗\n\n14\n00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:45,719\n市 長 , 你 想 得 到 他 會 有 什 麼 障 礙 ? 包 括 m e , 其 實 有 幾 個 部 分 , 第 一 個 就 是 說 可 能 字 體 大 小 , 還 有 另 外 一 方 面 就 是 說 , 還 有 另 外 一 方 面 就 是 說 , 他 小 字 , 老 花 眼 , 手 指 不 靈 敏 , 不 會 使 用 這 個 系 統 。 他 小 字 , 老 花 眼 , 手 指 不 靈 敏 , 不 會 使 用 這 個 系 統 。 是 的 沒 錯 。 那 根 據 紅 道 老 人 福 利 基 金 會 的 處 長 陳 煥 宇 他 表 示 啊 , 長 者 的 科 技 落 差 在 科 技 典 參 越 來 越 普 及 的 現 代 社 會 中 越 來 越 困 窘 。\n\n15\n00:05:47,340 --> 00:06:02,133\n﹏ 連 到 超 市 買 東 西 都 因 為 不 擅 長 使 用 A P P 然 後 招 牌 隊 等 待 客 人 嘲 諷 ﹏ 有 人 會 冷 言 冷 語 說 不 會 買 就 不 要 出 來 ﹏ 所 以 即 使 不 是 長 者 ﹏ 包 括 關 你 ﹏ 你 中 年 的 中 年 ﹏\n\n16\n00:06:32,572 --> 00:06:52,509\n這 是 典 參 喔 那 遇 到 採 購 的 時 候 他 也 會 被 歧 視 當 然 很 多 在 知 名 的 賣 場 裡 面 他 會 說 要 推 到 他 們 的 A P P 嘛 他 們 的 A P P 要 推 的 時 候 會 員 制 要 先 行 所 以 呢 實 體 會 員 卡 沒 有 不 能 使 用 然 後 都 叫 他 們 要 大 家 都 要 用 那 個 A P P 去 這 個 結 帳 然 後 操 作 不 順 就 讓 結 帳 的 時 間 拉 很 長 嘛 所 以 其 他 後 面 大 排 長 龍\n\n17\n00:07:21,791 --> 00:07:37,881\n﹏ 所 以 我 們 以 為 說 電 源 會 來 幫 他 ﹏ 他 根 本 就 沒 有 多 餘 出 來 電 源 可 以 來 幫 他 ﹏ 所 以 直 接 就 替 ﹏ 你 說 叫 他 過 來 , 他 沒 有 ﹏ 甚 至 拒 絕 ﹏ 我 這 個 沒 人 賣 去 ﹏ 去 幫 你 操 作 你 的 那 個 ﹏ 所 以 都 會 說 你 可 不 可 以 去 別 的 櫃 台 結 帳 ﹏ 去 別 的 櫃 台 重 新 排 隊 這 樣 子 ﹏\n\n18\n00:07:39,042 --> 00:08:05,870\n﹏ 那 再 談 就 醫 ﹏ 這 個 不 是 說 啊 你 不 不 出 去 餐 廳 吃 飯 就 沒 事 了 那 不 要 去 那 個 s u p e r m a r k e t 買 東 西 就 沒 事 不 是 喔 現 在 連 老 人 家 要 去 看 醫 生 也 遇 到 同 樣 的 問 題 現 在 多 數 的 醫 療 院 所 都 可 以 線 上 掛 號 而 且 要 透 過 線 上 去 看 到 你 看 診 的 進 度 然 後 然 後 只 會 使 用 老 人 機 的 長 輩 怎 麼 辦 沒 有 人 協 助 怎 麼 辦 他 只 有\n\n19\n00:08:08,091 --> 00:08:27,799\n從 早 上 做 到 中 午 一 直 做 一 直 就 做 在 那 裡 所 以 你 知 道 大 型 醫 院 會 協 助 所 謂 的 長 輩 敬 老 會 提 供 協 助 的 是 幾 歲 的 嗎 大 型 醫 院 好 像 是 都 志 工 嘛 志 工 在 這 邊 提 供 不 是 啦 那 志 工 都 提 供 幾 歲 的 你 知 道 嗎\n\n20\n00:08:29,506 --> 00:08:53,722\n所 謂 的 敬 老 醫 院 給 他 們 的 協 助 是 幾 歲 你 知 道 嗎 ? 市 長 8 5 歲 市 長 這 些 問 題 都 很 嚴 重 我 們 今 天 講 說 給 老 人 什 麼 福 利 給 老 人 什 麼 照 顧 連 他 生 活 上 的 這 個 數 位 落 差 讓 他 所 受 到 的 困 擾 和 遭 遇 他 其 實 就 是 很 大 的 社 會 排 斥 了 和 排 擠 了 你 知 道\n\n21\n00:08:54,802 --> 00:09:12,292\n如 果 使 用 現 場 查 詢 下 載 醫 院 的 A P P 可 以 推 估 , 但 它 沒 有 辦 法 推 估 時 間 , 所 以 只 能 一 直 等 。 而 且 對 經 常 出 入 醫 院 的 長 輩 來 講 , 只 要 就 診 、 回 診 , 不 是 太 早 到 就 是 預 估 錯 誤 晚 到 導 致 過 號 , 所 以 就 是 時 間 都 耗 在 那 裡 。\n\n22\n00:09:13,012 --> 00:09:40,219\n所 以 不 是 只 有 這 個 團 體 老 人 福 利 團 體 在 觀 察 連 年 輕 人 都 自 己 觀 察 到 說 如 果 沒 有 我 們 年 輕 人 自 己 的 爸 爸 媽 媽 也 是 一 樣 可 是 很 多 爸 爸 媽 媽 說 我 不 要 麻 煩 你 年 輕 人 然 後 到 時 候 就 說 沒 有 年 輕 人 幫 忙 也 不 想 麻 煩 年 輕 人 的 話 我 們 就 乾 脆 不 要 外 出 去 消 費 但 是 這 個 符 合 我 們 國 家 提 升 高 齡 者 跟 社 會 連 結 的 政 策 目 標 嗎 ? 次 長\n\n23\n00:09:41,741 --> 00:09:55,682\n委 員 , 確 實 我 們 現 在 目 前 就 是 說 資 訊 社 會 裡 面 就 您 剛 剛 說 的 這 個 數 位 落 差 , 這 個 我 們 要 趕 快 來 趕 上 去 。 那 委 員 跟 委 員 報 告 我 們 現 在 目 前 在 社 區 照 顧 關 懷 據 點 長 青 學 院 , 我 們 現 在 目 前 都 有 推 類 似 像 這 樣 的 一 個 方 案 。\n\n24\n00:09:56,958 --> 00:10:09,665\n對 啦 , 我 們 說 得 很 好 聽 。 2 0 2 2 年 我 們 行 政 院 核 定 了 因 應 超 高 齡 社 會 對 策 方 案 啦 。 然 後 提 到 我 們 2 0 2 6 年 會 進 入 超 高 齡 社 會 , 老 人 人 口 賺 總 人 口 的 比 率 會 2 0 . 8 。 到 2 0 3 6 年 會 達 到 2 8 % 進 入 極 高 齡 社 會 的 國 家 。\n\n25\n00:10:15,948 --> 00:10:27,484\n那 所 以 你 們 當 然 也 有 一 些 政 策 提 升 高 齡 者 數 位 連 結 降 低 高 齡 者 數 位 落 差 的 政 策 如 你 所 說 在 社 區 大 學 裡 面 教 可 是 你 知 道 社 區 大 學 裡 面 教 什 麼 嗎 ? 教 什 麼 ? 內 容 ?\n\n26\n00:10:30,855 --> 00:10:54,291\n一 般 通 常 就 是 說 以 我 在 國 際 台 中 服 務 的 經 驗 大 概 就 是 說 像 如 何 上 網 啦 還 有 對 於 一 些 整 個 這 一 個 就 是 設 備 使 用 的 一 些 的 一 些 k n o w l e d g e 你 講 了 一 部 分 而 已 啦 他 在 教 社 區 大 學 關 懷 據 點 教 你 怎 麼 使 用 F B 啊 怎 麼 使 用 通 訊 軟 體 L I N E 啊 你 怎 麼 玩 遊 戲 調 記 身 心 啊 但 是 跟 我 剛 才 講 的 那 一 些 都 不 一 步\n\n27\n00:10:55,071 --> 00:10:55,131\n﹑ 林 淑 芬 ﹑\n\n28\n00:11:19,776 --> 00:11:44,922\n人 手 一 機 但 是 完 全 不 會 那 他 也 沒 有 辦 法 辨 別 網 路 詐 騙 更 不 要 講 用 手 機 進 行 網 路 掛 號 和 看 準 的 進 度 而 且 重 點 是 社 區 大 學 你 所 謂 的 整 個 國 家 整 體 的 改 善 數 位 落 差 的 政 策 和 教 學 都 是 紙 上 談 兵 在 那 裡 啊 看 這 個 放 影 片 然 後 就 是 照 這 樣 你 就 照 這 樣 做 聽 完 以 後 老 人 家 就 是 鴨 子 聽 雷 啦\n\n29\n00:11:47,123 --> 00:12:14,334\n聽 了 不 知 道 在 說 什 麼 什 麼 什 麼 。 所 以 要 真 正 的 要 做 的 是 什 麼 你 知 道 嗎 ? 應 該 要 帶 著 長 輩 走 出 去 而 且 實 際 的 去 操 作 然 後 你 們 跟 一 些 企 業 合 作 請 你 們 在 某 些 時 段 讓 長 輩 可 以 去 練 習 外 出 課 程 然 後 真 正 去 操 作 一 下 不 要 講 在 課 程 上 面 只 是 教 學 然 後 只 上 談 兵 與 現 實 脫 節 你 知 道 我 舉 一 個 例 子 韓 國\n\n30\n00:12:17,045 --> 00:12:34,138\n你 就 知 道 說 我 們 真 的 整 個 衛 福 部 從 來 都 沒 有 思 考 解 決 這 部 分 的 障 礙 和 問 題 。 韓 國 2 0 2 2 年 因 為 疫 情 所 以 加 速 了 它 整 個 社 會 的 數 位 化 的 時 代 。 全 韓 國 電 子 自 助 機 台\n\n31\n00:12:34,998 --> 00:12:59,079\n提 供 了 三 萬 台 , 是 2 0 1 9 年 的 三 倍 之 多 。 結 果 很 多 高 齡 者 是 忘 記 先 看 , 因 為 通 通 都 不 會 。 然 後 從 出 事 快 篩 的 陰 性 報 告 , 接 種 證 明 到 點 餐 購 買 票 券 , 通 通 電 子 化 。 然 後 南 韓 的 銀 髮 族 根 本 不 熟 悉 這 個 電 子 產 品 , 所 以 外 出 一 趟 壓 力 非 常 大 。 他 感 覺 我 被 社 會 邊 緣 化 了 。\n\n32\n00:13:00,060 --> 00:13:07,503\n但 是 又 害 怕 說 很 丟 臉 。 所 以 乾 脆 不 外 出 避 免 消 費 。 所 以 讓 這 樣 的 數 位 落 差 讓 高 齡 者 其 實 更 遠 離 社 會 的 。 所 以 首 爾 後 來 首 爾 就 做 了 什 麼 知 道 嗎 ? 他 就 增 設 慢 機 台 。 專 門 佛 這 個 長 輩 給 他 慢 慢 操 作 你 不 要 有 壓 力 這 是 長 輩 慢 慢 操 作 台 。 然 後 經 濟 到 的 地 區 也 幫 長 輩 們 上 幾 數 位 課 。 把 電 子 機 台\n\n33\n00:13:27,552 --> 00:13:42,190\n﹑ 搬 進 勒 林 課 程 ﹑ 從 案 件 說 明 到 使 用 程 序 ﹑ 一 切 手 把 手 教 學 ﹑ 還 讓 長 輩 直 接 上 機 練 習 。 那 除 此 之 外 呢 , 疫 情 期 間 , 韓 國 因 為 這 個 銀 行 業 務 全 面 調 整 , 那 兩 年 關 閉 了 6 0 0 家 銀 行 分 行 。\n\n34\n00:13:47,196 --> 00:13:57,439\n﹏ 所 以 全 面 擴 大 網 路 金 融 服 務 ﹏ 但 是 全 韓 國 6 0 到 7 0 歲 的 民 眾 ﹏ 網 路 銀 行 使 用 率 到 目 前 只 有 3 7 % ﹏ 然 後 7 0 歲 以 上 的 長 者 只 有 一 成 ﹏ 南 韓 的 銀 髮 族 說 沒 有 人 幫 我 下 載 這 個 網 銀 A P P ﹏\n\n35\n00:14:03,021 --> 00:14:25,840\n﹑ 太 複 雜 了 我 也 不 會 ﹑ 他 說 他 只 能 說 操 作 的 時 候 就 看 我 大 概 是 帳 戶 明 細 啊 ﹑ 他 不 敢 去 轉 帳 ﹑ 大 家 也 都 很 忙 ﹑ 所 以 他 不 敢 麻 煩 別 人 ﹑ 結 果 後 來 就 是 反 彈 的 聲 浪 排 山 倒 海 ﹑ 然 後 南 南 各 大 銀 行 就 維 持 少 數 分 行 運 作 以 後 ﹑ 他 開 始 增 設 ﹑ 大 致 的 基 台 還 派 出 行 動 銀 行 專 車 ﹑ 好 我 最 後 再 講 最 後 結 論 就 好 了 。\n\n36\n00:14:28,726 --> 00:14:48,277\n﹑ 首 爾 女 大 社 會 福 祉 學 系 教 授 提 到 ﹑ 數 位 落 差 使 長 輩 的 社 交 範 圍 縮 小 ﹑ 甚 至 遭 到 破 壞 ﹑ 他 們 會 因 此 感 到 孤 單 孤 獨 ﹑ 老 人 輕 生 率 可 能 提 高 ﹑ 而 縮 小 生 活 中 的 數 位 落 差 防 止 長 輩 們 出 現 社 會 疏 離 感 ﹑\n\n37\n00:14:51,559 --> 00:15:07,125\n﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 �\n\n38\n00:15:23,132 --> 00:15:37,015\n﹑ 關 懷 據 點 ﹑ 所 有 社 區 ﹑ 這 個 大 學 ﹑ 裡 面 的 那 個 具 體 生 活 ﹑ 能 力 的 教 導 的 這 個 課 程 ﹑ 這 樣 你 知 道 你 都 沒 有 做 ﹑ 基 本 上 你 完 全 不 需 要 思 考 過 這 種 的 問 題 ﹑ 你 自 己 就 沒 效 ﹑ 謝 謝 林 淑 芬 委 員 的 資 訊 ﹑ 感 謝 委 員 ﹑ 謝 謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n790\t26210\t委員資訊。主席,各位大家早安。是不是還請我們次長。好,請李次長。次長你好。最近一次你到餐廳用餐是什麼時候?\n28806\t54899\t最近一次到餐廳用餐。報告委員我來復複之後。沒關係。那你有沒有用過QR Code點餐?這個有。點餐以後有使用線上支付結帳嗎?線上支付。報告委員因為我那個IT能力不太好啦。你?你是別人替你付無的吧?\n56124\t69727\t拜託委員,沒有。我都用現金的啦。抱歉抱歉。不是啦,不是現金。我是說自助點餐機欸。自己去操作。沒有櫃台,沒有那個點餐人員的。拜託委員,因為我算比較有錢的人齁。拜託委員,你幾歲?\n85816\t101002\t抱歉,這個是不應該回答的。我必須要請你回答,因為這個跟這個有關。你幾歲了啊?抱歉。可是這個跟我的主題有關啊。我太壞了,我太壞了。我外國女主啦,1962年去外國啦。\n108513\t127840\t我五十五年次啊。這樣是幾歲?五百,今年五百。好,我就要跟你講喔。數目發佈在2023年發佈了一個112年數位發展調查報告。它的報告內容指出啊,從年齡差異來看,個人上網率大概以60歲為分界。12到59歲的民眾上網率達91.9%以上。但是60到64歲就下降到剩下83.7%。\n137623\t154671\t﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲\n167677\t184565\t他這個報告裡面有一個叫資訊與通信科技禁用權ICT這個禁用權和使用和素養的年齡異同會証表那可以看得出來資訊查詢如果不要講直上網從資訊查詢和行動支付兩項指標來看60到64歲都開始就低於全體的平均值但是\n196850\t212139\t﹑六十五歲以上呈現雪崩式下滑﹑六十五歲以上他使用網路做資訊查詢的只有18%﹑使用行動支付的只有10%,10.6%﹑\n214841\t230135\t所以對於這個65歲以上使用資訊查詢和行動支付的這個兩個指標來看的話,其實是雪崩式。幾乎不會啦!高零沒有在用電子支付的啦!你剛才說你有在用還是沒有?電子支付。你有沒有來配?Google配?台灣配?市長有沒有?沒有。\n241491\t245297\t五十八歲的沒有啊!包括 Google Pay有,但是\n246823\t254805\t林淑芬,不好意思,不好意思,我會趕快回去,我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕\n275231\t295224\t﹏那現在AI的發展日新月異﹏長者的日常生活注定跟社會環境其實是越來越衝突的﹏那其實就因為高齡上的數位落差﹏然後變成高齡的這個挫折﹏外出的挫折﹏然後變成高齡歧視﹏後來就變成高齡被邊緣化﹏\n299086\t320554\t這是一個階段一個階段社會好像年輕人越來越方便網路越來越方便可是呢老人越來越邊緣啊因為數位落差讓老人結果不敢走出去不敢走出來那我講點餐來講光是你知道餐廳很多手機和平板點餐那對高齡者來講他有什麼考驗\n322120\t345719\t市長,你想得到他會有什麼障礙?包括 me,其實有幾個部分,第一個就是說可能字體大小,還有另外一方面就是說,還有另外一方面就是說,他小字,老花眼,手指不靈敏,不會使用這個系統。他小字,老花眼,手指不靈敏,不會使用這個系統。 是的沒錯。那根據紅道老人福利基金會的處長陳煥宇他表示啊,長者的科技落差在科技典參越來越普及的現代社會中越來越困窘。\n347340\t362133\t﹏連到超市買東西都因為不擅長使用APP 然後招牌隊等待客人嘲諷﹏有人會冷言冷語說不會買就不要出來﹏所以即使不是長者﹏包括關你﹏你中年的中年﹏\n363814\t392312\t⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n392572\t412509\t這是典參喔那遇到採購的時候他也會被歧視當然很多在知名的賣場裡面他會說要推到他們的APP嘛他們的APP要推的時候會員制要先行所以呢實體會員卡沒有不能使用然後都叫他們要大家都要用那個APP去這個結帳然後操作不順就讓結帳的時間拉很長嘛所以其他後面大排長龍\n419155\t441391\t⋯⋯⋯⋯\n441791\t457881\t﹏所以我們以為說電源會來幫他﹏他根本就沒有多餘出來電源可以來幫他﹏所以直接就替﹏你說叫他過來,他沒有﹏甚至拒絕﹏我這個沒人賣去﹏去幫你操作你的那個﹏所以都會說你可不可以去別的櫃台結帳﹏去別的櫃台重新排隊這樣子﹏\n459042\t485870\t﹏那再談就醫﹏這個不是說啊你不不出去餐廳吃飯就沒事了那不要去那個supermarket買東西就沒事不是喔現在連老人家要去看醫生也遇到同樣的問題現在多數的醫療院所都可以線上掛號而且要透過線上去看到你看診的進度然後然後只會使用老人機的長輩怎麼辦沒有人協助怎麼辦他只有\n488091\t507799\t從早上做到中午一直做一直就做在那裡所以你知道大型醫院會協助所謂的長輩敬老會提供協助的是幾歲的嗎大型醫院好像是都志工嘛志工在這邊提供不是啦那志工都提供幾歲的你知道嗎\n509506\t533722\t所謂的敬老醫院給他們的協助是幾歲你知道嗎?市長85歲市長這些問題都很嚴重我們今天講說給老人什麼福利給老人什麼照顧連他生活上的這個數位落差讓他所受到的困擾和遭遇他其實就是很大的社會排斥了和排擠了你知道\n534802\t552292\t如果使用現場查詢下載醫院的APP可以推估,但它沒有辦法推估時間,所以只能一直等。而且對經常出入醫院的長輩來講,只要就診、回診,不是太早到就是預估錯誤晚到導致過號,所以就是時間都耗在那裡。\n553012\t580219\t所以不是只有這個團體老人福利團體在觀察連年輕人都自己觀察到說如果沒有我們年輕人自己的爸爸媽媽也是一樣可是很多爸爸媽媽說我不要麻煩你年輕人然後到時候就說沒有年輕人幫忙也不想麻煩年輕人的話我們就乾脆不要外出去消費但是這個符合我們國家提升高齡者跟社會連結的政策目標嗎?次長\n581741\t595682\t委員,確實我們現在目前就是說資訊社會裡面就您剛剛說的這個數位落差,這個我們要趕快來趕上去。那委員跟委員報告我們現在目前在社區照顧關懷據點長青學院,我們現在目前都有推類似像這樣的一個方案。\n596958\t609665\t對啦,我們說得很好聽。2022年我們行政院核定了因應超高齡社會對策方案啦。然後提到我們2026年會進入超高齡社會,老人人口賺總人口的比率會20.8。到2036年會達到28%進入極高齡社會的國家。\n615948\t627484\t那所以你們當然也有一些政策提升高齡者數位連結降低高齡者數位落差的政策如你所說在社區大學裡面教可是你知道社區大學裡面教什麼嗎?教什麼?內容?\n630855\t654291\t一般通常就是說以我在國際台中服務的經驗大概就是說像如何上網啦還有對於一些整個這一個就是設備使用的一些的一些knowledge你講了一部分而已啦他在教社區大學關懷據點教你怎麼使用FB啊怎麼使用通訊軟體LINE啊你怎麼玩遊戲調記身心啊但是跟我剛才講的那一些都不一步\n655071\t655131\t﹑林淑芬﹑\n679776\t704922\t人手一機但是完全不會那他也沒有辦法辨別網路詐騙更不要講用手機進行網路掛號和看準的進度而且重點是社區大學你所謂的整個國家整體的改善數位落差的政策和教學都是紙上談兵在那裡啊看這個放影片然後就是照這樣你就照這樣做聽完以後老人家就是鴨子聽雷啦\n707123\t734334\t聽了不知道在說什麼什麼什麼。所以要真正的要做的是什麼你知道嗎?應該要帶著長輩走出去而且實際的去操作然後你們跟一些企業合作請你們在某些時段讓長輩可以去練習外出課程然後真正去操作一下不要講在課程上面只是教學然後只上談兵與現實脫節你知道我舉一個例子韓國\n737045\t754138\t你就知道說我們真的整個衛福部從來都沒有思考解決這部分的障礙和問題。韓國2022年因為疫情所以加速了它整個社會的數位化的時代。全韓國電子自助機台\n754998\t779079\t提供了三萬台,是2019年的三倍之多。結果很多高齡者是忘記先看,因為通通都不會。然後從出事快篩的陰性報告,接種證明到點餐購買票券,通通電子化。然後南韓的銀髮族根本不熟悉這個電子產品,所以外出一趟壓力非常大。他感覺我被社會邊緣化了。\n780060\t787503\t但是又害怕說很丟臉。所以乾脆不外出避免消費。所以讓這樣的數位落差讓高齡者其實更遠離社會的。所以首爾後來首爾就做了什麼知道嗎?他就增設慢機台。專門佛這個長輩給他慢慢操作你不要有壓力這是長輩慢慢操作台。然後經濟到的地區也幫長輩們上幾數位課。把電子機台\n807552\t822190\t﹑搬進勒林課程﹑從案件說明到使用程序﹑一切手把手教學﹑還讓長輩直接上機練習。那除此之外呢,疫情期間,韓國因為這個銀行業務全面調整,那兩年關閉了600家銀行分行。\n827196\t837439\t﹏所以全面擴大網路金融服務﹏但是全韓國60到70歲的民眾﹏網路銀行使用率到目前只有37%﹏然後70歲以上的長者只有一成﹏南韓的銀髮族說沒有人幫我下載這個網銀APP﹏\n843021\t865840\t﹑太複雜了我也不會﹑他說他只能說操作的時候就看我大概是帳戶明細啊﹑他不敢去轉帳﹑大家也都很忙﹑所以他不敢麻煩別人﹑結果後來就是反彈的聲浪排山倒海﹑然後南南各大銀行就維持少數分行運作以後﹑他開始增設﹑大致的基台還派出行動銀行專車﹑好我最後再講最後結論就好了。\n868726\t888277\t﹑首爾女大社會福祉學系教授提到﹑數位落差使長輩的社交範圍縮小﹑甚至遭到破壞﹑他們會因此感到孤單孤獨﹑老人輕生率可能提高﹑而縮小生活中的數位落差防止長輩們出現社會疏離感﹑\n891559\t907125\t﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡�\n923132\t937015\t﹑關懷據點﹑所有社區﹑這個大學﹑裡面的那個具體生活﹑能力的教導的這個課程﹑這樣你知道你都沒有做﹑基本上你完全不需要思考過這種的問題﹑你自己就沒效﹑謝謝林淑芬委員的資訊﹑感謝委員﹑謝謝\n","txt":"委員資訊。主席,各位大家早安。是不是還請我們次長。好,請李次長。次長你好。最近一次你到餐廳用餐是什麼時候?\n最近一次到餐廳用餐。報告委員我來復複之後。沒關係。那你有沒有用過QR Code點餐?這個有。點餐以後有使用線上支付結帳嗎?線上支付。報告委員因為我那個IT能力不太好啦。你?你是別人替你付無的吧?\n拜託委員,沒有。我都用現金的啦。抱歉抱歉。不是啦,不是現金。我是說自助點餐機欸。自己去操作。沒有櫃台,沒有那個點餐人員的。拜託委員,因為我算比較有錢的人齁。拜託委員,你幾歲?\n抱歉,這個是不應該回答的。我必須要請你回答,因為這個跟這個有關。你幾歲了啊?抱歉。可是這個跟我的主題有關啊。我太壞了,我太壞了。我外國女主啦,1962年去外國啦。\n我五十五年次啊。這樣是幾歲?五百,今年五百。好,我就要跟你講喔。數目發佈在2023年發佈了一個112年數位發展調查報告。它的報告內容指出啊,從年齡差異來看,個人上網率大概以60歲為分界。12到59歲的民眾上網率達91.9%以上。但是60到64歲就下降到剩下83.7%。\n﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲\n他這個報告裡面有一個叫資訊與通信科技禁用權ICT這個禁用權和使用和素養的年齡異同會証表那可以看得出來資訊查詢如果不要講直上網從資訊查詢和行動支付兩項指標來看60到64歲都開始就低於全體的平均值但是\n﹑六十五歲以上呈現雪崩式下滑﹑六十五歲以上他使用網路做資訊查詢的只有18%﹑使用行動支付的只有10%,10.6%﹑\n所以對於這個65歲以上使用資訊查詢和行動支付的這個兩個指標來看的話,其實是雪崩式。幾乎不會啦!高零沒有在用電子支付的啦!你剛才說你有在用還是沒有?電子支付。你有沒有來配?Google配?台灣配?市長有沒有?沒有。\n五十八歲的沒有啊!包括 Google Pay有,但是\n林淑芬,不好意思,不好意思,我會趕快回去,我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕\n﹏那現在AI的發展日新月異﹏長者的日常生活注定跟社會環境其實是越來越衝突的﹏那其實就因為高齡上的數位落差﹏然後變成高齡的這個挫折﹏外出的挫折﹏然後變成高齡歧視﹏後來就變成高齡被邊緣化﹏\n這是一個階段一個階段社會好像年輕人越來越方便網路越來越方便可是呢老人越來越邊緣啊因為數位落差讓老人結果不敢走出去不敢走出來那我講點餐來講光是你知道餐廳很多手機和平板點餐那對高齡者來講他有什麼考驗\n市長,你想得到他會有什麼障礙?包括 me,其實有幾個部分,第一個就是說可能字體大小,還有另外一方面就是說,還有另外一方面就是說,他小字,老花眼,手指不靈敏,不會使用這個系統。他小字,老花眼,手指不靈敏,不會使用這個系統。 是的沒錯。那根據紅道老人福利基金會的處長陳煥宇他表示啊,長者的科技落差在科技典參越來越普及的現代社會中越來越困窘。\n﹏連到超市買東西都因為不擅長使用APP 然後招牌隊等待客人嘲諷﹏有人會冷言冷語說不會買就不要出來﹏所以即使不是長者﹏包括關你﹏你中年的中年﹏\n⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n這是典參喔那遇到採購的時候他也會被歧視當然很多在知名的賣場裡面他會說要推到他們的APP嘛他們的APP要推的時候會員制要先行所以呢實體會員卡沒有不能使用然後都叫他們要大家都要用那個APP去這個結帳然後操作不順就讓結帳的時間拉很長嘛所以其他後面大排長龍\n⋯⋯⋯⋯\n﹏所以我們以為說電源會來幫他﹏他根本就沒有多餘出來電源可以來幫他﹏所以直接就替﹏你說叫他過來,他沒有﹏甚至拒絕﹏我這個沒人賣去﹏去幫你操作你的那個﹏所以都會說你可不可以去別的櫃台結帳﹏去別的櫃台重新排隊這樣子﹏\n﹏那再談就醫﹏這個不是說啊你不不出去餐廳吃飯就沒事了那不要去那個supermarket買東西就沒事不是喔現在連老人家要去看醫生也遇到同樣的問題現在多數的醫療院所都可以線上掛號而且要透過線上去看到你看診的進度然後然後只會使用老人機的長輩怎麼辦沒有人協助怎麼辦他只有\n從早上做到中午一直做一直就做在那裡所以你知道大型醫院會協助所謂的長輩敬老會提供協助的是幾歲的嗎大型醫院好像是都志工嘛志工在這邊提供不是啦那志工都提供幾歲的你知道嗎\n所謂的敬老醫院給他們的協助是幾歲你知道嗎?市長85歲市長這些問題都很嚴重我們今天講說給老人什麼福利給老人什麼照顧連他生活上的這個數位落差讓他所受到的困擾和遭遇他其實就是很大的社會排斥了和排擠了你知道\n如果使用現場查詢下載醫院的APP可以推估,但它沒有辦法推估時間,所以只能一直等。而且對經常出入醫院的長輩來講,只要就診、回診,不是太早到就是預估錯誤晚到導致過號,所以就是時間都耗在那裡。\n所以不是只有這個團體老人福利團體在觀察連年輕人都自己觀察到說如果沒有我們年輕人自己的爸爸媽媽也是一樣可是很多爸爸媽媽說我不要麻煩你年輕人然後到時候就說沒有年輕人幫忙也不想麻煩年輕人的話我們就乾脆不要外出去消費但是這個符合我們國家提升高齡者跟社會連結的政策目標嗎?次長\n委員,確實我們現在目前就是說資訊社會裡面就您剛剛說的這個數位落差,這個我們要趕快來趕上去。那委員跟委員報告我們現在目前在社區照顧關懷據點長青學院,我們現在目前都有推類似像這樣的一個方案。\n對啦,我們說得很好聽。2022年我們行政院核定了因應超高齡社會對策方案啦。然後提到我們2026年會進入超高齡社會,老人人口賺總人口的比率會20.8。到2036年會達到28%進入極高齡社會的國家。\n那所以你們當然也有一些政策提升高齡者數位連結降低高齡者數位落差的政策如你所說在社區大學裡面教可是你知道社區大學裡面教什麼嗎?教什麼?內容?\n一般通常就是說以我在國際台中服務的經驗大概就是說像如何上網啦還有對於一些整個這一個就是設備使用的一些的一些knowledge你講了一部分而已啦他在教社區大學關懷據點教你怎麼使用FB啊怎麼使用通訊軟體LINE啊你怎麼玩遊戲調記身心啊但是跟我剛才講的那一些都不一步\n﹑林淑芬﹑\n人手一機但是完全不會那他也沒有辦法辨別網路詐騙更不要講用手機進行網路掛號和看準的進度而且重點是社區大學你所謂的整個國家整體的改善數位落差的政策和教學都是紙上談兵在那裡啊看這個放影片然後就是照這樣你就照這樣做聽完以後老人家就是鴨子聽雷啦\n聽了不知道在說什麼什麼什麼。所以要真正的要做的是什麼你知道嗎?應該要帶著長輩走出去而且實際的去操作然後你們跟一些企業合作請你們在某些時段讓長輩可以去練習外出課程然後真正去操作一下不要講在課程上面只是教學然後只上談兵與現實脫節你知道我舉一個例子韓國\n你就知道說我們真的整個衛福部從來都沒有思考解決這部分的障礙和問題。韓國2022年因為疫情所以加速了它整個社會的數位化的時代。全韓國電子自助機台\n提供了三萬台,是2019年的三倍之多。結果很多高齡者是忘記先看,因為通通都不會。然後從出事快篩的陰性報告,接種證明到點餐購買票券,通通電子化。然後南韓的銀髮族根本不熟悉這個電子產品,所以外出一趟壓力非常大。他感覺我被社會邊緣化了。\n但是又害怕說很丟臉。所以乾脆不外出避免消費。所以讓這樣的數位落差讓高齡者其實更遠離社會的。所以首爾後來首爾就做了什麼知道嗎?他就增設慢機台。專門佛這個長輩給他慢慢操作你不要有壓力這是長輩慢慢操作台。然後經濟到的地區也幫長輩們上幾數位課。把電子機台\n﹑搬進勒林課程﹑從案件說明到使用程序﹑一切手把手教學﹑還讓長輩直接上機練習。那除此之外呢,疫情期間,韓國因為這個銀行業務全面調整,那兩年關閉了600家銀行分行。\n﹏所以全面擴大網路金融服務﹏但是全韓國60到70歲的民眾﹏網路銀行使用率到目前只有37%﹏然後70歲以上的長者只有一成﹏南韓的銀髮族說沒有人幫我下載這個網銀APP﹏\n﹑太複雜了我也不會﹑他說他只能說操作的時候就看我大概是帳戶明細啊﹑他不敢去轉帳﹑大家也都很忙﹑所以他不敢麻煩別人﹑結果後來就是反彈的聲浪排山倒海﹑然後南南各大銀行就維持少數分行運作以後﹑他開始增設﹑大致的基台還派出行動銀行專車﹑好我最後再講最後結論就好了。\n﹑首爾女大社會福祉學系教授提到﹑數位落差使長輩的社交範圍縮小﹑甚至遭到破壞﹑他們會因此感到孤單孤獨﹑老人輕生率可能提高﹑而縮小生活中的數位落差防止長輩們出現社會疏離感﹑\n﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡�\n﹑關懷據點﹑所有社區﹑這個大學﹑裡面的那個具體生活﹑能力的教導的這個課程﹑這樣你知道你都沒有做﹑基本上你完全不需要思考過這種的問題﹑你自己就沒效﹑謝謝林淑芬委員的資訊﹑感謝委員﹑謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.790 --> 00:26.210\n委 員 資 訊 。 主 席 , 各 位 大 家 早 安 。 是 不 是 還 請 我 們 次 長 。 好 , 請 李 次 長 。 次 長 你 好 。 最 近 一 次 你 到 餐 廳 用 餐 是 什 麼 時 候 ?\n\n00:28.806 --> 00:54.899\n最 近 一 次 到 餐 廳 用 餐 。 報 告 委 員 我 來 復 複 之 後 。 沒 關 係 。 那 你 有 沒 有 用 過 Q R C o d e 點 餐 ? 這 個 有 。 點 餐 以 後 有 使 用 線 上 支 付 結 帳 嗎 ? 線 上 支 付 。 報 告 委 員 因 為 我 那 個 I T 能 力 不 太 好 啦 。 你 ? 你 是 別 人 替 你 付 無 的 吧 ?\n\n00:56.124 --> 01:09.727\n拜 託 委 員 , 沒 有 。 我 都 用 現 金 的 啦 。 抱 歉 抱 歉 。 不 是 啦 , 不 是 現 金 。 我 是 說 自 助 點 餐 機 欸 。 自 己 去 操 作 。 沒 有 櫃 台 , 沒 有 那 個 點 餐 人 員 的 。 拜 託 委 員 , 因 為 我 算 比 較 有 錢 的 人 齁 。 拜 託 委 員 , 你 幾 歲 ?\n\n01:25.816 --> 01:41.002\n抱 歉 , 這 個 是 不 應 該 回 答 的 。 我 必 須 要 請 你 回 答 , 因 為 這 個 跟 這 個 有 關 。 你 幾 歲 了 啊 ? 抱 歉 。 可 是 這 個 跟 我 的 主 題 有 關 啊 。 我 太 壞 了 , 我 太 壞 了 。 我 外 國 女 主 啦 , 1 9 6 2 年 去 外 國 啦 。\n\n01:48.513 --> 02:07.840\n我 五 十 五 年 次 啊 。 這 樣 是 幾 歲 ? 五 百 , 今 年 五 百 。 好 , 我 就 要 跟 你 講 喔 。 數 目 發 佈 在 2 0 2 3 年 發 佈 了 一 個 1 1 2 年 數 位 發 展 調 查 報 告 。 它 的 報 告 內 容 指 出 啊 , 從 年 齡 差 異 來 看 , 個 人 上 網 率 大 概 以 6 0 歲 為 分 界 。 1 2 到 5 9 歲 的 民 眾 上 網 率 達 9 1 . 9 % 以 上 。 但 是 6 0 到 6 4 歲 就 下 降 到 剩 下 8 3 . 7 % 。\n\n02:17.623 --> 02:34.671\n﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲 以 上 的 民 眾 上 網 率 是 只 有 5 1 . 6 % ﹑ 6 5 歲\n\n02:47.677 --> 03:04.565\n他 這 個 報 告 裡 面 有 一 個 叫 資 訊 與 通 信 科 技 禁 用 權 I C T 這 個 禁 用 權 和 使 用 和 素 養 的 年 齡 異 同 會 証 表 那 可 以 看 得 出 來 資 訊 查 詢 如 果 不 要 講 直 上 網 從 資 訊 查 詢 和 行 動 支 付 兩 項 指 標 來 看 6 0 到 6 4 歲 都 開 始 就 低 於 全 體 的 平 均 值 但 是\n\n03:16.850 --> 03:32.139\n﹑ 六 十 五 歲 以 上 呈 現 雪 崩 式 下 滑 ﹑ 六 十 五 歲 以 上 他 使 用 網 路 做 資 訊 查 詢 的 只 有 1 8 % ﹑ 使 用 行 動 支 付 的 只 有 1 0 % , 1 0 . 6 % ﹑\n\n03:34.841 --> 03:50.135\n所 以 對 於 這 個 6 5 歲 以 上 使 用 資 訊 查 詢 和 行 動 支 付 的 這 個 兩 個 指 標 來 看 的 話 , 其 實 是 雪 崩 式 。 幾 乎 不 會 啦 ! 高 零 沒 有 在 用 電 子 支 付 的 啦 ! 你 剛 才 說 你 有 在 用 還 是 沒 有 ? 電 子 支 付 。 你 有 沒 有 來 配 ? G o o g l e 配 ? 台 灣 配 ? 市 長 有 沒 有 ? 沒 有 。\n\n04:01.491 --> 04:05.297\n五 十 八 歲 的 沒 有 啊 ! 包 括 G o o g l e P a y 有 , 但 是\n\n04:06.823 --> 04:14.805\n林 淑 芬 , 不 好 意 思 , 不 好 意 思 , 我 會 趕 快 回 去 , 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕 快 回 去 搶 貨 我 會 趕\n\n04:35.231 --> 04:55.224\n﹏ 那 現 在 A I 的 發 展 日 新 月 異 ﹏ 長 者 的 日 常 生 活 注 定 跟 社 會 環 境 其 實 是 越 來 越 衝 突 的 ﹏ 那 其 實 就 因 為 高 齡 上 的 數 位 落 差 ﹏ 然 後 變 成 高 齡 的 這 個 挫 折 ﹏ 外 出 的 挫 折 ﹏ 然 後 變 成 高 齡 歧 視 ﹏ 後 來 就 變 成 高 齡 被 邊 緣 化 ﹏\n\n04:59.086 --> 05:20.554\n這 是 一 個 階 段 一 個 階 段 社 會 好 像 年 輕 人 越 來 越 方 便 網 路 越 來 越 方 便 可 是 呢 老 人 越 來 越 邊 緣 啊 因 為 數 位 落 差 讓 老 人 結 果 不 敢 走 出 去 不 敢 走 出 來 那 我 講 點 餐 來 講 光 是 你 知 道 餐 廳 很 多 手 機 和 平 板 點 餐 那 對 高 齡 者 來 講 他 有 什 麼 考 驗\n\n05:22.120 --> 05:45.719\n市 長 , 你 想 得 到 他 會 有 什 麼 障 礙 ? 包 括 m e , 其 實 有 幾 個 部 分 , 第 一 個 就 是 說 可 能 字 體 大 小 , 還 有 另 外 一 方 面 就 是 說 , 還 有 另 外 一 方 面 就 是 說 , 他 小 字 , 老 花 眼 , 手 指 不 靈 敏 , 不 會 使 用 這 個 系 統 。 他 小 字 , 老 花 眼 , 手 指 不 靈 敏 , 不 會 使 用 這 個 系 統 。 是 的 沒 錯 。 那 根 據 紅 道 老 人 福 利 基 金 會 的 處 長 陳 煥 宇 他 表 示 啊 , 長 者 的 科 技 落 差 在 科 技 典 參 越 來 越 普 及 的 現 代 社 會 中 越 來 越 困 窘 。\n\n05:47.340 --> 06:02.133\n﹏ 連 到 超 市 買 東 西 都 因 為 不 擅 長 使 用 A P P 然 後 招 牌 隊 等 待 客 人 嘲 諷 ﹏ 有 人 會 冷 言 冷 語 說 不 會 買 就 不 要 出 來 ﹏ 所 以 即 使 不 是 長 者 ﹏ 包 括 關 你 ﹏ 你 中 年 的 中 年 ﹏\n\n06:32.572 --> 06:52.509\n這 是 典 參 喔 那 遇 到 採 購 的 時 候 他 也 會 被 歧 視 當 然 很 多 在 知 名 的 賣 場 裡 面 他 會 說 要 推 到 他 們 的 A P P 嘛 他 們 的 A P P 要 推 的 時 候 會 員 制 要 先 行 所 以 呢 實 體 會 員 卡 沒 有 不 能 使 用 然 後 都 叫 他 們 要 大 家 都 要 用 那 個 A P P 去 這 個 結 帳 然 後 操 作 不 順 就 讓 結 帳 的 時 間 拉 很 長 嘛 所 以 其 他 後 面 大 排 長 龍\n\n07:21.791 --> 07:37.881\n﹏ 所 以 我 們 以 為 說 電 源 會 來 幫 他 ﹏ 他 根 本 就 沒 有 多 餘 出 來 電 源 可 以 來 幫 他 ﹏ 所 以 直 接 就 替 ﹏ 你 說 叫 他 過 來 , 他 沒 有 ﹏ 甚 至 拒 絕 ﹏ 我 這 個 沒 人 賣 去 ﹏ 去 幫 你 操 作 你 的 那 個 ﹏ 所 以 都 會 說 你 可 不 可 以 去 別 的 櫃 台 結 帳 ﹏ 去 別 的 櫃 台 重 新 排 隊 這 樣 子 ﹏\n\n07:39.042 --> 08:05.870\n﹏ 那 再 談 就 醫 ﹏ 這 個 不 是 說 啊 你 不 不 出 去 餐 廳 吃 飯 就 沒 事 了 那 不 要 去 那 個 s u p e r m a r k e t 買 東 西 就 沒 事 不 是 喔 現 在 連 老 人 家 要 去 看 醫 生 也 遇 到 同 樣 的 問 題 現 在 多 數 的 醫 療 院 所 都 可 以 線 上 掛 號 而 且 要 透 過 線 上 去 看 到 你 看 診 的 進 度 然 後 然 後 只 會 使 用 老 人 機 的 長 輩 怎 麼 辦 沒 有 人 協 助 怎 麼 辦 他 只 有\n\n08:08.091 --> 08:27.799\n從 早 上 做 到 中 午 一 直 做 一 直 就 做 在 那 裡 所 以 你 知 道 大 型 醫 院 會 協 助 所 謂 的 長 輩 敬 老 會 提 供 協 助 的 是 幾 歲 的 嗎 大 型 醫 院 好 像 是 都 志 工 嘛 志 工 在 這 邊 提 供 不 是 啦 那 志 工 都 提 供 幾 歲 的 你 知 道 嗎\n\n08:29.506 --> 08:53.722\n所 謂 的 敬 老 醫 院 給 他 們 的 協 助 是 幾 歲 你 知 道 嗎 ? 市 長 8 5 歲 市 長 這 些 問 題 都 很 嚴 重 我 們 今 天 講 說 給 老 人 什 麼 福 利 給 老 人 什 麼 照 顧 連 他 生 活 上 的 這 個 數 位 落 差 讓 他 所 受 到 的 困 擾 和 遭 遇 他 其 實 就 是 很 大 的 社 會 排 斥 了 和 排 擠 了 你 知 道\n\n08:54.802 --> 09:12.292\n如 果 使 用 現 場 查 詢 下 載 醫 院 的 A P P 可 以 推 估 , 但 它 沒 有 辦 法 推 估 時 間 , 所 以 只 能 一 直 等 。 而 且 對 經 常 出 入 醫 院 的 長 輩 來 講 , 只 要 就 診 、 回 診 , 不 是 太 早 到 就 是 預 估 錯 誤 晚 到 導 致 過 號 , 所 以 就 是 時 間 都 耗 在 那 裡 。\n\n09:13.012 --> 09:40.219\n所 以 不 是 只 有 這 個 團 體 老 人 福 利 團 體 在 觀 察 連 年 輕 人 都 自 己 觀 察 到 說 如 果 沒 有 我 們 年 輕 人 自 己 的 爸 爸 媽 媽 也 是 一 樣 可 是 很 多 爸 爸 媽 媽 說 我 不 要 麻 煩 你 年 輕 人 然 後 到 時 候 就 說 沒 有 年 輕 人 幫 忙 也 不 想 麻 煩 年 輕 人 的 話 我 們 就 乾 脆 不 要 外 出 去 消 費 但 是 這 個 符 合 我 們 國 家 提 升 高 齡 者 跟 社 會 連 結 的 政 策 目 標 嗎 ? 次 長\n\n09:41.741 --> 09:55.682\n委 員 , 確 實 我 們 現 在 目 前 就 是 說 資 訊 社 會 裡 面 就 您 剛 剛 說 的 這 個 數 位 落 差 , 這 個 我 們 要 趕 快 來 趕 上 去 。 那 委 員 跟 委 員 報 告 我 們 現 在 目 前 在 社 區 照 顧 關 懷 據 點 長 青 學 院 , 我 們 現 在 目 前 都 有 推 類 似 像 這 樣 的 一 個 方 案 。\n\n09:56.958 --> 10:09.665\n對 啦 , 我 們 說 得 很 好 聽 。 2 0 2 2 年 我 們 行 政 院 核 定 了 因 應 超 高 齡 社 會 對 策 方 案 啦 。 然 後 提 到 我 們 2 0 2 6 年 會 進 入 超 高 齡 社 會 , 老 人 人 口 賺 總 人 口 的 比 率 會 2 0 . 8 。 到 2 0 3 6 年 會 達 到 2 8 % 進 入 極 高 齡 社 會 的 國 家 。\n\n10:15.948 --> 10:27.484\n那 所 以 你 們 當 然 也 有 一 些 政 策 提 升 高 齡 者 數 位 連 結 降 低 高 齡 者 數 位 落 差 的 政 策 如 你 所 說 在 社 區 大 學 裡 面 教 可 是 你 知 道 社 區 大 學 裡 面 教 什 麼 嗎 ? 教 什 麼 ? 內 容 ?\n\n10:30.855 --> 10:54.291\n一 般 通 常 就 是 說 以 我 在 國 際 台 中 服 務 的 經 驗 大 概 就 是 說 像 如 何 上 網 啦 還 有 對 於 一 些 整 個 這 一 個 就 是 設 備 使 用 的 一 些 的 一 些 k n o w l e d g e 你 講 了 一 部 分 而 已 啦 他 在 教 社 區 大 學 關 懷 據 點 教 你 怎 麼 使 用 F B 啊 怎 麼 使 用 通 訊 軟 體 L I N E 啊 你 怎 麼 玩 遊 戲 調 記 身 心 啊 但 是 跟 我 剛 才 講 的 那 一 些 都 不 一 步\n\n10:55.071 --> 10:55.131\n﹑ 林 淑 芬 ﹑\n\n11:19.776 --> 11:44.922\n人 手 一 機 但 是 完 全 不 會 那 他 也 沒 有 辦 法 辨 別 網 路 詐 騙 更 不 要 講 用 手 機 進 行 網 路 掛 號 和 看 準 的 進 度 而 且 重 點 是 社 區 大 學 你 所 謂 的 整 個 國 家 整 體 的 改 善 數 位 落 差 的 政 策 和 教 學 都 是 紙 上 談 兵 在 那 裡 啊 看 這 個 放 影 片 然 後 就 是 照 這 樣 你 就 照 這 樣 做 聽 完 以 後 老 人 家 就 是 鴨 子 聽 雷 啦\n\n11:47.123 --> 12:14.334\n聽 了 不 知 道 在 說 什 麼 什 麼 什 麼 。 所 以 要 真 正 的 要 做 的 是 什 麼 你 知 道 嗎 ? 應 該 要 帶 著 長 輩 走 出 去 而 且 實 際 的 去 操 作 然 後 你 們 跟 一 些 企 業 合 作 請 你 們 在 某 些 時 段 讓 長 輩 可 以 去 練 習 外 出 課 程 然 後 真 正 去 操 作 一 下 不 要 講 在 課 程 上 面 只 是 教 學 然 後 只 上 談 兵 與 現 實 脫 節 你 知 道 我 舉 一 個 例 子 韓 國\n\n12:17.045 --> 12:34.138\n你 就 知 道 說 我 們 真 的 整 個 衛 福 部 從 來 都 沒 有 思 考 解 決 這 部 分 的 障 礙 和 問 題 。 韓 國 2 0 2 2 年 因 為 疫 情 所 以 加 速 了 它 整 個 社 會 的 數 位 化 的 時 代 。 全 韓 國 電 子 自 助 機 台\n\n12:34.998 --> 12:59.079\n提 供 了 三 萬 台 , 是 2 0 1 9 年 的 三 倍 之 多 。 結 果 很 多 高 齡 者 是 忘 記 先 看 , 因 為 通 通 都 不 會 。 然 後 從 出 事 快 篩 的 陰 性 報 告 , 接 種 證 明 到 點 餐 購 買 票 券 , 通 通 電 子 化 。 然 後 南 韓 的 銀 髮 族 根 本 不 熟 悉 這 個 電 子 產 品 , 所 以 外 出 一 趟 壓 力 非 常 大 。 他 感 覺 我 被 社 會 邊 緣 化 了 。\n\n13:00.060 --> 13:07.503\n但 是 又 害 怕 說 很 丟 臉 。 所 以 乾 脆 不 外 出 避 免 消 費 。 所 以 讓 這 樣 的 數 位 落 差 讓 高 齡 者 其 實 更 遠 離 社 會 的 。 所 以 首 爾 後 來 首 爾 就 做 了 什 麼 知 道 嗎 ? 他 就 增 設 慢 機 台 。 專 門 佛 這 個 長 輩 給 他 慢 慢 操 作 你 不 要 有 壓 力 這 是 長 輩 慢 慢 操 作 台 。 然 後 經 濟 到 的 地 區 也 幫 長 輩 們 上 幾 數 位 課 。 把 電 子 機 台\n\n13:27.552 --> 13:42.190\n﹑ 搬 進 勒 林 課 程 ﹑ 從 案 件 說 明 到 使 用 程 序 ﹑ 一 切 手 把 手 教 學 ﹑ 還 讓 長 輩 直 接 上 機 練 習 。 那 除 此 之 外 呢 , 疫 情 期 間 , 韓 國 因 為 這 個 銀 行 業 務 全 面 調 整 , 那 兩 年 關 閉 了 6 0 0 家 銀 行 分 行 。\n\n13:47.196 --> 13:57.439\n﹏ 所 以 全 面 擴 大 網 路 金 融 服 務 ﹏ 但 是 全 韓 國 6 0 到 7 0 歲 的 民 眾 ﹏ 網 路 銀 行 使 用 率 到 目 前 只 有 3 7 % ﹏ 然 後 7 0 歲 以 上 的 長 者 只 有 一 成 ﹏ 南 韓 的 銀 髮 族 說 沒 有 人 幫 我 下 載 這 個 網 銀 A P P ﹏\n\n14:03.021 --> 14:25.840\n﹑ 太 複 雜 了 我 也 不 會 ﹑ 他 說 他 只 能 說 操 作 的 時 候 就 看 我 大 概 是 帳 戶 明 細 啊 ﹑ 他 不 敢 去 轉 帳 ﹑ 大 家 也 都 很 忙 ﹑ 所 以 他 不 敢 麻 煩 別 人 ﹑ 結 果 後 來 就 是 反 彈 的 聲 浪 排 山 倒 海 ﹑ 然 後 南 南 各 大 銀 行 就 維 持 少 數 分 行 運 作 以 後 ﹑ 他 開 始 增 設 ﹑ 大 致 的 基 台 還 派 出 行 動 銀 行 專 車 ﹑ 好 我 最 後 再 講 最 後 結 論 就 好 了 。\n\n14:28.726 --> 14:48.277\n﹑ 首 爾 女 大 社 會 福 祉 學 系 教 授 提 到 ﹑ 數 位 落 差 使 長 輩 的 社 交 範 圍 縮 小 ﹑ 甚 至 遭 到 破 壞 ﹑ 他 們 會 因 此 感 到 孤 單 孤 獨 ﹑ 老 人 輕 生 率 可 能 提 高 ﹑ 而 縮 小 生 活 中 的 數 位 落 差 防 止 長 輩 們 出 現 社 會 疏 離 感 ﹑\n\n14:51.559 --> 15:07.125\n﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 環 境 是 後 疫 情 時 代 的 重 要 課 題 ﹑ 打 造 友 善 的 高 齡 �\n\n15:23.132 --> 15:37.015\n﹑ 關 懷 據 點 ﹑ 所 有 社 區 ﹑ 這 個 大 學 ﹑ 裡 面 的 那 個 具 體 生 活 ﹑ 能 力 的 教 導 的 這 個 課 程 ﹑ 這 樣 你 知 道 你 都 沒 有 做 ﹑ 基 本 上 你 完 全 不 需 要 思 考 過 這 種 的 問 題 ﹑ 你 自 己 就 沒 效 ﹑ 謝 謝 林 淑 芬 委 員 的 資 訊 ﹑ 感 謝 委 員 ﹑ 謝 謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.79,"end":26.21,"text":"委員資訊。主席,各位大家早安。是不是還請我們次長。好,請李次長。次長你好。最近一次你到餐廳用餐是什麼時候?"},{"start":28.806,"end":54.899,"text":"最近一次到餐廳用餐。報告委員我來復複之後。沒關係。那你有沒有用過QR Code點餐?這個有。點餐以後有使用線上支付結帳嗎?線上支付。報告委員因為我那個IT能力不太好啦。你?你是別人替你付無的吧?"},{"start":56.124,"end":69.727,"text":"拜託委員,沒有。我都用現金的啦。抱歉抱歉。不是啦,不是現金。我是說自助點餐機欸。自己去操作。沒有櫃台,沒有那個點餐人員的。拜託委員,因為我算比較有錢的人齁。拜託委員,你幾歲?"},{"start":85.816,"end":101.002,"text":"抱歉,這個是不應該回答的。我必須要請你回答,因為這個跟這個有關。你幾歲了啊?抱歉。可是這個跟我的主題有關啊。我太壞了,我太壞了。我外國女主啦,1962年去外國啦。"},{"start":108.513,"end":127.84,"text":"我五十五年次啊。這樣是幾歲?五百,今年五百。好,我就要跟你講喔。數目發佈在2023年發佈了一個112年數位發展調查報告。它的報告內容指出啊,從年齡差異來看,個人上網率大概以60歲為分界。12到59歲的民眾上網率達91.9%以上。但是60到64歲就下降到剩下83.7%。"},{"start":137.623,"end":154.671,"text":"﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲"},{"start":167.677,"end":184.565,"text":"他這個報告裡面有一個叫資訊與通信科技禁用權ICT這個禁用權和使用和素養的年齡異同會証表那可以看得出來資訊查詢如果不要講直上網從資訊查詢和行動支付兩項指標來看60到64歲都開始就低於全體的平均值但是"},{"start":196.85,"end":212.139,"text":"﹑六十五歲以上呈現雪崩式下滑﹑六十五歲以上他使用網路做資訊查詢的只有18%﹑使用行動支付的只有10%,10.6%﹑"},{"start":214.841,"end":230.135,"text":"所以對於這個65歲以上使用資訊查詢和行動支付的這個兩個指標來看的話,其實是雪崩式。幾乎不會啦!高零沒有在用電子支付的啦!你剛才說你有在用還是沒有?電子支付。你有沒有來配?Google配?台灣配?市長有沒有?沒有。"},{"start":241.491,"end":245.297,"text":"五十八歲的沒有啊!包括 Google Pay有,但是"},{"start":246.823,"end":254.805,"text":"林淑芬,不好意思,不好意思,我會趕快回去,我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕"},{"start":275.231,"end":295.224,"text":" ﹏那現在AI的發展日新月異﹏長者的日常生活注定跟社會環境其實是越來越衝突的﹏那其實就因為高齡上的數位落差﹏然後變成高齡的這個挫折﹏外出的挫折﹏然後變成高齡歧視﹏後來就變成高齡被邊緣化﹏"},{"start":299.086,"end":320.554,"text":"這是一個階段一個階段社會好像年輕人越來越方便網路越來越方便可是呢老人越來越邊緣啊因為數位落差讓老人結果不敢走出去不敢走出來那我講點餐來講光是你知道餐廳很多手機和平板點餐那對高齡者來講他有什麼考驗"},{"start":322.12,"end":345.719,"text":"市長,你想得到他會有什麼障礙?包括 me,其實有幾個部分,第一個就是說可能字體大小,還有另外一方面就是說,還有另外一方面就是說,他小字,老花眼,手指不靈敏,不會使用這個系統。他小字,老花眼,手指不靈敏,不會使用這個系統。 是的沒錯。那根據紅道老人福利基金會的處長陳煥宇他表示啊,長者的科技落差在科技典參越來越普及的現代社會中越來越困窘。"},{"start":347.34,"end":362.133,"text":" ﹏連到超市買東西都因為不擅長使用APP 然後招牌隊等待客人嘲諷﹏有人會冷言冷語說不會買就不要出來﹏所以即使不是長者﹏包括關你﹏你中年的中年﹏"},{"start":363.814,"end":392.312,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":392.572,"end":412.509,"text":"這是典參喔那遇到採購的時候他也會被歧視當然很多在知名的賣場裡面他會說要推到他們的APP嘛他們的APP要推的時候會員制要先行所以呢實體會員卡沒有不能使用然後都叫他們要大家都要用那個APP去這個結帳然後操作不順就讓結帳的時間拉很長嘛所以其他後面大排長龍"},{"start":419.155,"end":441.391,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":441.791,"end":457.881,"text":" ﹏所以我們以為說電源會來幫他﹏他根本就沒有多餘出來電源可以來幫他﹏所以直接就替﹏你說叫他過來,他沒有﹏甚至拒絕﹏我這個沒人賣去﹏去幫你操作你的那個﹏所以都會說你可不可以去別的櫃台結帳﹏去別的櫃台重新排隊這樣子﹏"},{"start":459.042,"end":485.87,"text":" ﹏那再談就醫﹏這個不是說啊你不不出去餐廳吃飯就沒事了那不要去那個supermarket買東西就沒事不是喔現在連老人家要去看醫生也遇到同樣的問題現在多數的醫療院所都可以線上掛號而且要透過線上去看到你看診的進度然後然後只會使用老人機的長輩怎麼辦沒有人協助怎麼辦他只有"},{"start":488.091,"end":507.799,"text":"從早上做到中午一直做一直就做在那裡所以你知道大型醫院會協助所謂的長輩敬老會提供協助的是幾歲的嗎大型醫院好像是都志工嘛志工在這邊提供不是啦那志工都提供幾歲的你知道嗎"},{"start":509.506,"end":533.722,"text":"所謂的敬老醫院給他們的協助是幾歲你知道嗎?市長85歲市長這些問題都很嚴重我們今天講說給老人什麼福利給老人什麼照顧連他生活上的這個數位落差讓他所受到的困擾和遭遇他其實就是很大的社會排斥了和排擠了你知道"},{"start":534.802,"end":552.292,"text":"如果使用現場查詢下載醫院的APP可以推估,但它沒有辦法推估時間,所以只能一直等。而且對經常出入醫院的長輩來講,只要就診、回診,不是太早到就是預估錯誤晚到導致過號,所以就是時間都耗在那裡。"},{"start":553.012,"end":580.219,"text":"所以不是只有這個團體老人福利團體在觀察連年輕人都自己觀察到說如果沒有我們年輕人自己的爸爸媽媽也是一樣可是很多爸爸媽媽說我不要麻煩你年輕人然後到時候就說沒有年輕人幫忙也不想麻煩年輕人的話我們就乾脆不要外出去消費但是這個符合我們國家提升高齡者跟社會連結的政策目標嗎?次長"},{"start":581.741,"end":595.682,"text":"委員,確實我們現在目前就是說資訊社會裡面就您剛剛說的這個數位落差,這個我們要趕快來趕上去。那委員跟委員報告我們現在目前在社區照顧關懷據點長青學院,我們現在目前都有推類似像這樣的一個方案。"},{"start":596.958,"end":609.665,"text":"對啦,我們說得很好聽。2022年我們行政院核定了因應超高齡社會對策方案啦。然後提到我們2026年會進入超高齡社會,老人人口賺總人口的比率會20.8。到2036年會達到28%進入極高齡社會的國家。"},{"start":615.948,"end":627.484,"text":"那所以你們當然也有一些政策提升高齡者數位連結降低高齡者數位落差的政策如你所說在社區大學裡面教可是你知道社區大學裡面教什麼嗎?教什麼?內容?"},{"start":630.855,"end":654.291,"text":"一般通常就是說以我在國際台中服務的經驗大概就是說像如何上網啦還有對於一些整個這一個就是設備使用的一些的一些knowledge你講了一部分而已啦他在教社區大學關懷據點教你怎麼使用FB啊怎麼使用通訊軟體LINE啊你怎麼玩遊戲調記身心啊但是跟我剛才講的那一些都不一步"},{"start":655.071,"end":655.131,"text":"﹑林淑芬﹑"},{"start":679.776,"end":704.922,"text":"人手一機但是完全不會那他也沒有辦法辨別網路詐騙更不要講用手機進行網路掛號和看準的進度而且重點是社區大學你所謂的整個國家整體的改善數位落差的政策和教學都是紙上談兵在那裡啊看這個放影片然後就是照這樣你就照這樣做聽完以後老人家就是鴨子聽雷啦"},{"start":707.123,"end":734.334,"text":"聽了不知道在說什麼什麼什麼。所以要真正的要做的是什麼你知道嗎?應該要帶著長輩走出去而且實際的去操作然後你們跟一些企業合作請你們在某些時段讓長輩可以去練習外出課程然後真正去操作一下不要講在課程上面只是教學然後只上談兵與現實脫節你知道我舉一個例子韓國"},{"start":737.045,"end":754.138,"text":"你就知道說我們真的整個衛福部從來都沒有思考解決這部分的障礙和問題。韓國2022年因為疫情所以加速了它整個社會的數位化的時代。全韓國電子自助機台"},{"start":754.998,"end":779.079,"text":"提供了三萬台,是2019年的三倍之多。結果很多高齡者是忘記先看,因為通通都不會。然後從出事快篩的陰性報告,接種證明到點餐購買票券,通通電子化。然後南韓的銀髮族根本不熟悉這個電子產品,所以外出一趟壓力非常大。他感覺我被社會邊緣化了。"},{"start":780.06,"end":787.503,"text":"但是又害怕說很丟臉。所以乾脆不外出避免消費。所以讓這樣的數位落差讓高齡者其實更遠離社會的。所以首爾後來首爾就做了什麼知道嗎?他就增設慢機台。專門佛這個長輩給他慢慢操作你不要有壓力這是長輩慢慢操作台。然後經濟到的地區也幫長輩們上幾數位課。把電子機台"},{"start":807.552,"end":822.19,"text":"﹑搬進勒林課程﹑從案件說明到使用程序﹑一切手把手教學﹑還讓長輩直接上機練習。那除此之外呢,疫情期間,韓國因為這個銀行業務全面調整,那兩年關閉了600家銀行分行。"},{"start":827.196,"end":837.439,"text":" ﹏所以全面擴大網路金融服務﹏但是全韓國60到70歲的民眾﹏網路銀行使用率到目前只有37%﹏然後70歲以上的長者只有一成﹏南韓的銀髮族說沒有人幫我下載這個網銀APP﹏"},{"start":843.021,"end":865.84,"text":"﹑太複雜了我也不會﹑他說他只能說操作的時候就看我大概是帳戶明細啊﹑他不敢去轉帳﹑大家也都很忙﹑所以他不敢麻煩別人﹑結果後來就是反彈的聲浪排山倒海﹑然後南南各大銀行就維持少數分行運作以後﹑他開始增設﹑大致的基台還派出行動銀行專車﹑好我最後再講最後結論就好了。"},{"start":868.726,"end":888.277,"text":"﹑首爾女大社會福祉學系教授提到﹑數位落差使長輩的社交範圍縮小﹑甚至遭到破壞﹑他們會因此感到孤單孤獨﹑老人輕生率可能提高﹑而縮小生活中的數位落差防止長輩們出現社會疏離感﹑"},{"start":891.559,"end":907.125,"text":"﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡�"},{"start":923.132,"end":937.015,"text":"﹑關懷據點﹑所有社區﹑這個大學﹑裡面的那個具體生活﹑能力的教導的這個課程﹑這樣你知道你都沒有做﹑基本上你完全不需要思考過這種的問題﹑你自己就沒效﹑謝謝林淑芬委員的資訊﹑感謝委員﹑謝謝"}]}}}}