{"id":153357,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba393778c4fdc956b71766e5648a1e6b71beba37a180c9b1cd089d1730ef7b1b9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:59:36 - 11:05:39","影片長度":"00:06:03","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":363,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T11:05:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:59:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":386,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時59分）感謝主席。在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士、先生，有請劉主任委員。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，最近大家都在密切注意你的發言，有關於我們的產業跟能源政策，我的標題是臺灣跨足國際供應鏈產業要靠綠能，而且要善用臺灣優勢布局氫能儲運。在您的很多訪談當中，強調AI時代「算力即國力」，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你提到了三個重點，如果未來預估用電需求會增加，我們要考慮的三個問題是第一，總用電的需求，我們能不能滿足，對不對？電夠不夠？第二個是低碳的電夠不夠，以及如何減碳，這才是重點，是不是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：再來，才是2050淨零目標。根據最近很紅的和碩童子賢董事長，他說AI運算、電動車、晶片都需要大量電力，所以「電力也是國力」，你同意嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是他後面說核能可以幫助綠能，我就要來請教一下你的意見了，企業需要的是不是穩定供電，但是風光發電有供電間歇性，所以企業對於供電有焦慮，因此考慮核能，就你的瞭解是不是這個原因？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我先解釋一下，核能現在是這樣子，核能是一個低碳電，但是核廢料要得到妥善儲存，才有機會探討它是不是綠電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是以歐盟現在來看，它還不被認為是綠電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前歐盟合乎這個標準的只有芬蘭，最高階的核廢處置場跟生活圈可以永久隔離，只有芬蘭做得到。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以我們現在的不是綠電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以核能重點……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不在我們的減碳範圍裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在歐盟核能也只有芬蘭可以宣稱OL3，它的電是綠電，是不是這樣的意思？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這我可能要再理解一下，我之前聽到的是到現在歐盟對核電能不能為綠電，還是有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還在討論當中？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：還在討論當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：至少看起來好像勉強只有芬蘭。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以它只是有機會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有機會，好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但機會可能是5%，可能是50%，這個depends討論的結果。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以這要釐清，不然大家都以為，歐盟認為核電是綠電。那麼積極發展符合RE100的再生能源，這才是我們真正的重心，是不是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，企業的壓力在這裡。"],["鍾委員佳濱：RE100的再生能源種類有沒有包括核電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前是沒有嘛，很清楚。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為它沒有辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前再生能源憑證能滿足業界的需求嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在正在評估，目前先以我們最新的路徑來看，還差一些些，我們現在是準備這樣做，第一個是做I-REC，就是國際綠電憑證；第二個，台電也會加速在碳捕捉地方的減碳，還有汽車的減碳，我們有一個路徑往這條路走。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些產業界的需求都是一些外銷的大產業嗎？國內的中小企業需不需要？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：中小企業有外銷的，目前都有這個需求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以總體來講，需求一直在成長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下台積電未來的布局，在臺灣加重投資，它3奈米的產能增加3倍，對綠電的需求是不是要增加很多？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有人在說目前臺灣1,000度的綠電當中，台積電買掉999度，民間中小企業只搶得到1度綠電，你覺得這樣的說法客觀嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個細節我可能還要再去理解啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大部分被它拿走了嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我的認知，有些企業還是有買到它要的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那些都是大企業，中小企業拿不到。我剛剛說的1,000度綠電，只有1度電是中小企業拿得到的，所以未來是不是要更加積極地推動RE100認定的再生能源？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，再生能源現在會更積極一點，而且再生能源以風力發電來講，我瞭解大部分的廠商已經過了學習曲線，後面應該會加速。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以我們來看一下，臺灣的綠電包括風、光發電，還有因為有間歇性，儲能很重要，所以氫是很好的載體，你同意嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。臺灣氫能產業布局是不是太保守？如果只是用氫來替代進口石化燃料發電，您覺得臺灣這樣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守了呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不認為，因為它是一個決戰未來能源的國際競爭力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是它只用來取代發電，我的看法，跟您交換一下意見，其實積極發展氫能的民生運用跟儲運產業很重要，因為我們在民生端，譬如說燃料電池的電動車、性能車，或者運輸端港口的儲運設施，包括阿姆斯特丹、漢堡，這些歐盟的國家都在大力推動，因為要進口氫能，會用氨或者其他的方式進口，它都需要轉變儲能設施和運輸設施，是不是這樣子？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，現在整個歐盟都在做這個實驗。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請你們一定要聯合經濟部跟交通部，因為港口是交通部管的。全球排名前11的航商當中，臺灣占了幾個，你知道嗎？我寫出來了嘛，前11名的占了3個，前20名的占了4個，我們總運能占了全世界的1成，未來的船舶也是不是要用低碳燃料？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，因為歐盟已經開始徵收……"],["鍾委員佳濱：已經紀錄了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，已經徵收了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不只我們運輸的船隊要用低碳燃料，連其載運的能源機也是要改成類似像氨這樣的氫能原料，是不是這樣子？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是不是能夠用臺灣的航運優勢，政府積極地輔導發展氫能儲運產業？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就給我答案，請你研議政府利用臺灣航運優勢積極發展及輔導氫能民生應用和儲運產業的可行性，一個月提出一份報告可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。主委，我跟您說，反核是民進黨的神主牌、護黨神山，那是神主牌，你不要去亂動它，他們現在已經在跟你講話，是叫你不要對核能亂發言，小心一點，好不好？","現在請羅美玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 357.718, \"end\": 358.278, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 358.278, \"end\": 358.419, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 358.419, \"end\": 358.439, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:07,192\n委 員 替 代 農 美 聯 委 員 先 行 質 詢 。 現 在 請 鍾 佳 濱 委 員 質 詢 。 感 謝 主 席 。 那 麼 謝 謝 政 務 機 關 總 統 、 官 員 、 會 長 、 工 作 夥 伴 、 媒 體 機 關 女 士 先 生 。 有 請 我 們 劉 主 任 委 員 。\n\n2\n00:00:31,079 --> 00:00:59,221\n總 委 員 好 主 委 好 最 近 大 家 都 要 密 切 注 意 你 的 發 言 有 關 於 我 們 的 產 業 跟 能 源 政 策 我 的 標 題 是 我 們 臺 灣 這 些 跨 足 國 際 供 應 鏈 的 產 業 要 靠 綠 能 而 且 要 善 用 臺 灣 的 優 勢 佈 局 、 輕 能 儲 運 好 那 在 您 的 很 多 訪 談 當 中 呢 強 調 A I 時 代 算 力 及 國 力 對 不 對 是 的 好 那 您 提 到 了 三 個 重 點 齁 如 果 未 來 預 估 用 電 需 求 會 增 加 那 我 們 要 考 慮 的 這 三 個 問 題 是 第 一 總 用 電 的 需 求 我 們 滿 足 對 不 對 電 夠 不 夠\n\n3\n00:01:01,072 --> 00:01:25,390\n第 二 是 低 碳 的 電 夠 不 夠 以 及 如 何 減 碳 這 才 是 重 點 是 不 是 這 樣 是 的 好 那 再 來 才 是 我 們 2 0 5 0 的 淨 零 目 標 那 麼 根 據 我 們 很 紅 的 最 近 的 合 作 童 子 賢 董 事 長 他 說 A I 運 算 、 電 動 車 、 晶 片 都 需 要 大 量 電 力 所 以 電 力 也 是 國 力 你 同 意 嗎 同 意 但 是 他 後 面 說 的 核 能 可 以 幫 助 綠 能 這 個 我 就 要 來 請 教 一 下 你 的 意 見 企 業 需 要 的 是 不 是 穩 定 供 電\n\n4\n00:01:26,707 --> 00:01:52,674\n但 是 風 光 發 電 有 供 電 的 間 歇 性 所 以 企 業 對 於 供 電 有 焦 慮 所 以 因 此 考 慮 核 能 就 你 了 解 是 不 是 這 個 原 因 我 先 解 釋 一 下 核 能 現 在 是 這 樣 子 核 能 是 一 個 低 碳 電 但 是 核 廢 料 要 得 到 妥 善 的 儲 存 才 有 機 會 去 探 討 它 是 不 是 綠 電 但 是 以 歐 盟 現 在 來 看 它 還 不 被 認 為 綠 電 目 前 歐 盟 合 乎 這 個 標 準 只 有 芬 蘭\n\n5\n00:01:53,394 --> 00:02:10,192\n他 的 最 高 階 的 核 廢 處 置 場 跟 生 活 圈 可 以 永 久 隔 離 的 只 有 芬 蘭 做 到 所 以 我 們 現 在 的 不 是 綠 電 那 不 在 我 的 檢 探 範 圍 裡 面 在 歐 盟 核 能 也 只 有 芬 蘭 可 以 宣 稱 他 的 O L 3 他 的 電 是 綠 電 是 不 是 這 樣 的 意 思\n\n6\n00:02:11,594 --> 00:02:32,915\n在 歐 盟 的 話 , 這 不 是 荷 蘭 , 芬 蘭 這 我 可 能 要 再 理 解 一 下 , 我 之 前 聽 到 是 歐 盟 到 現 在 對 核 電 能 不 能 是 綠 電 還 是 有 , 還 在 討 論 當 中 至 少 看 起 來 好 像 勉 強 只 有 芬 蘭 , 往 下 看 所 以 他 只 是 有 機 會 , 但 機 會 是 可 能 是 5 % , 可 能 是 5 0 % , 這 個 叫 d e p e n d e n c e 那 個 討 論 的 結 果 所 以 這 要 釐 清 , 不 然 大 家 都 以 為 歐 盟 認 為 呢 , 核 能 是 , 核 電 是 綠 電\n\n7\n00:02:34,016 --> 00:03:00,841\n那 麼 積 極 發 展 符 合 R E 1 0 0 的 再 生 能 源 這 才 是 我 們 真 正 的 重 心 是 不 是 ? 沒 錯 , 企 業 的 壓 力 在 這 裡 。 R E 1 0 0 有 沒 有 包 括 它 的 再 生 能 源 總 列 有 沒 有 包 括 核 電 ? 目 前 是 沒 有 。 目 前 是 沒 有 嗎 ? 因 為 他 沒 有 辦 法 。 那 目 前 我 們 再 生 能 源 的 憑 證 能 滿 足 業 界 的 需 求 嗎 ? 我 們 現 在 正 在 評 估 那 目 前 我 們 一 些 以 我 們 最 新 的 路 徑 來 看 還 差 一 些 些 那 我 們 現 在 是 準 備 這 樣 做 就 第 一 個 是 做 I R E C 就 是 國 際 力 電 憑 證\n\n8\n00:03:02,489 --> 00:03:30,075\n那 第 二 個 呢 我 們 台 電 這 邊 也 會 加 速 在 那 個 探 捕 桌 地 方 的 減 碳 還 有 汽 車 的 減 碳 我 們 有 一 個 路 徑 去 往 這 條 路 走 這 些 產 業 這 個 需 求 都 是 一 些 外 銷 的 大 產 業 嗎 ? 國 內 的 中 小 企 業 需 不 需 要 ? 中 小 企 業 有 外 銷 的 目 前 都 有 這 個 需 求 所 以 總 體 來 講 需 求 一 直 在 成 長 好 往 下 看 是 的 那 我 們 看 一 下 台 積 電 台 積 電 未 來 的 佈 局 啊 在 台 灣 加 重 投 資 啊 所 以 他 3 萬 米 的 產 能 增 加 3 倍 他 對 綠 電 的 需 求 是 不 是 要 增 加 很 多 ? 是 的\n\n9\n00:03:30,731 --> 00:03:38,081\n有 人 在 說 目 前 臺 灣 1 0 0 0 度 的 綠 電 當 中 臺 積 電 買 掉 9 9 9 9 啊 民 間 中 小 企 業 只 有 搶 得 到 一 度 綠 電 你 覺 得 這 樣 說 法 客 觀 嗎 ? 這 個 細 節 我 可 能 還 要 再 去 理 解 啦 但 是 大 部 分 要 拿 走 了 嘛 現 在 應 該\n\n10\n00:03:50,351 --> 00:04:11,570\n我 的 認 知 是 有 些 企 業 還 是 有 買 到 他 要 的 . . . 剛 剛 都 是 大 企 業 , 中 小 企 業 拿 不 到 , 好 往 下 看 。 我 剛 剛 說 的 那 個 1 0 0 0 度 電 , 只 有 1 度 電 是 中 小 企 業 拿 得 到 的 。 所 以 呢 , 未 來 是 不 是 要 更 加 積 極 的 推 動 R E 1 0 0 的 認 定 的 再 生 人 員 ? 是 的 , 這 個 再 生 人 員 現 在 是 會 更 積 極 一 點 , 而 且 再 生 人 員 以 風 力 發 電 來 講 喔 , 我 瞭 解 大 部 分 的 廠 商 已 經 過 了 那 個 學 習 曲 線 了 。 應 該 會 後 面 會 加 速 。\n\n11\n00:04:13,832 --> 00:04:30,170\n台 灣 的 綠 電 包 括 風 光 發 電 還 有 呢 因 為 有 間 歇 性 除 了 很 重 要 所 以 氫 是 很 好 的 台 鐵 你 同 意 嗎 是 的 好 那 麼 台 灣 的 氫 能 產 業 布 局 是 不 是 太 保 守 如 果 只 是 用 氫 來 替 代 進 口 的 石 化 燃 料 來 發 電 您 覺 得 這 樣 的 台 灣 的 氫 能 產 業 布 局 是 不 是 太 保 守 了 呢\n\n12\n00:04:30,991 --> 00:04:52,354\n我 不 認 為 因 為 他 是 一 個 決 戰 未 來 能 源 的 國 際 競 爭 力 但 是 他 只 用 來 取 代 發 電 我 的 看 法 跟 您 交 換 一 下 意 見 其 實 呢 往 下 看 其 實 經 濟 發 展 、 輕 能 的 民 生 運 用 跟 儲 運 產 業 很 重 要 因 為 我 們 民 生 端 比 如 說 燃 料 電 池 的 電 動 車 、 輕 能 車 或 者 運 輸 端 我 們 港 口 的 儲 運 設 施 包 括 阿 姆 斯 特 丹 、 漢 堡\n\n13\n00:04:52,954 --> 00:05:13,256\n這 些 歐 盟 的 國 家 都 在 大 力 的 推 動 因 為 要 進 口 這 些 氫 能 他 用 安 或 者 其 他 方 式 進 口 他 都 需 要 有 儲 能 設 施 和 運 輸 設 施 的 轉 變 是 不 是 這 樣 子 是 的 現 在 整 個 歐 盟 都 在 做 這 個 實 驗 所 以 請 你 們 一 定 要 聯 合 經 濟 部 跟 交 通 部 因 為 交 通 部 呢 港 口 是 交 通 部 管 的 往 下 看 全 球 排 前 1 1 名 的 航 商 當 中 台 灣 佔 了 幾 個 你 知 道 嗎\n\n14\n00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:23,438\n我 寫 出 來 了 嗎 ? 前 1 1 名 的 占 了 3 個 啦 前 2 0 名 的 占 了 4 個 我 們 總 的 運 能 啊 占 了 全 世 界 的 一 成\n\n15\n00:05:24,383 --> 00:05:44,641\n那 未 來 的 船 舶 也 是 不 是 要 用 低 碳 燃 料 ? 是 的 , 因 為 歐 盟 已 經 開 始 徵 收 。 已 經 記 錄 了 嘛 。 對 , 已 經 徵 收 了 。 所 以 不 只 我 們 的 運 輸 的 船 隊 要 用 低 碳 燃 料 , 連 它 載 運 的 這 些 委 員 機 也 是 要 改 成 類 似 像 安 這 樣 的 一 個 氫 能 原 料 , 是 不 是 這 樣 子 ? 是 的 。 好 , 我 稍 微 往 下 看 。 所 以 是 不 是 能 夠 用 台 灣 的 航 運 優 勢 , 政 府 積 極 地 來 輔 導 發 展 氫 能 儲 運 的 產 業 ?\n\n16\n00:05:50,830 --> 00:05:58,439\n政 府 利 用 臺 灣 航 運 優 勢 ﹑ 積 極 發 展 及 輔 導 輕 能 民 生 應 用 和 儲 存 船 的 可 行 性 ﹑ 一 個 月 提 出 一 個 報 告 , 可 以 嗎 ?\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t7192\t委員替代農美聯委員先行質詢。現在請鍾佳濱委員質詢。感謝主席。那麼謝謝政務機關總統、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體機關女士先生。有請我們劉主任委員。\n31079\t59221\t總委員好主委好最近大家都要密切注意你的發言有關於我們的產業跟能源政策我的標題是我們臺灣這些跨足國際供應鏈的產業要靠綠能而且要善用臺灣的優勢佈局、輕能儲運好那在您的很多訪談當中呢強調AI時代算力及國力對不對是的好那您提到了三個重點齁如果未來預估用電需求會增加那我們要考慮的這三個問題是第一總用電的需求我們滿足對不對電夠不夠\n61072\t85390\t第二是低碳的電夠不夠以及如何減碳這才是重點是不是這樣是的好那再來才是我們2050的淨零目標那麼根據我們很紅的最近的合作童子賢董事長他說AI運算、電動車、晶片都需要大量電力所以電力也是國力你同意嗎同意但是他後面說的核能可以幫助綠能這個我就要來請教一下你的意見企業需要的是不是穩定供電\n86707\t112674\t但是風光發電有供電的間歇性所以企業對於供電有焦慮所以因此考慮核能就你了解是不是這個原因我先解釋一下核能現在是這樣子核能是一個低碳電但是核廢料要得到妥善的儲存才有機會去探討它是不是綠電但是以歐盟現在來看它還不被認為綠電目前歐盟合乎這個標準只有芬蘭\n113394\t130192\t他的最高階的核廢處置場跟生活圈可以永久隔離的只有芬蘭做到所以我們現在的不是綠電那不在我的檢探範圍裡面在歐盟核能也只有芬蘭可以宣稱他的OL3他的電是綠電是不是這樣的意思\n131594\t152915\t在歐盟的話,這不是荷蘭,芬蘭這我可能要再理解一下,我之前聽到是歐盟到現在對核電能不能是綠電還是有,還在討論當中至少看起來好像勉強只有芬蘭,往下看所以他只是有機會,但機會是可能是5%,可能是50%,這個叫dependence那個討論的結果所以這要釐清,不然大家都以為歐盟認為呢,核能是,核電是綠電\n154016\t180841\t那麼積極發展符合RE100的再生能源這才是我們真正的重心是不是?沒錯,企業的壓力在這裡。RE100有沒有包括它的再生能源總列有沒有包括核電?目前是沒有。目前是沒有嗎?因為他沒有辦法。那目前我們再生能源的憑證能滿足業界的需求嗎?我們現在正在評估那目前我們一些以我們最新的路徑來看還差一些些那我們現在是準備這樣做就第一個是做IREC就是國際力電憑證\n182489\t210075\t那第二個呢我們台電這邊也會加速在那個探捕桌地方的減碳還有汽車的減碳我們有一個路徑去往這條路走這些產業這個需求都是一些外銷的大產業嗎?國內的中小企業需不需要?中小企業有外銷的目前都有這個需求所以總體來講需求一直在成長好往下看是的那我們看一下台積電台積電未來的佈局啊在台灣加重投資啊所以他3萬米的產能增加3倍他對綠電的需求是不是要增加很多?是的\n210731\t218081\t有人在說目前臺灣1000度的綠電當中臺積電買掉9999啊民間中小企業只有搶得到一度綠電你覺得這樣說法客觀嗎?這個細節我可能還要再去理解啦但是大部分要拿走了嘛現在應該\n230351\t251570\t我的認知是有些企業還是有買到他要的...剛剛都是大企業,中小企業拿不到,好往下看。我剛剛說的那個1000度電,只有1度電是中小企業拿得到的。所以呢,未來是不是要更加積極的推動RE100的認定的再生人員?是的,這個再生人員現在是會更積極一點,而且再生人員以風力發電來講喔,我瞭解大部分的廠商已經過了那個學習曲線了。應該會後面會加速。\n253832\t270170\t台灣的綠電包括風光發電還有呢因為有間歇性除了很重要所以氫是很好的台鐵你同意嗎是的好 那麼台灣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守如果只是用氫來替代進口的石化燃料來發電您覺得這樣的台灣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守了呢\n270991\t292354\t我不認為因為他是一個決戰未來能源的國際競爭力但是他只用來取代發電我的看法跟您交換一下意見其實呢往下看其實經濟發展、輕能的民生運用跟儲運產業很重要因為我們民生端比如說燃料電池的電動車、輕能車或者運輸端我們港口的儲運設施包括阿姆斯特丹、漢堡\n292954\t313256\t這些歐盟的國家都在大力的推動因為要進口這些氫能他用安或者其他方式進口他都需要有儲能設施和運輸設施的轉變是不是這樣子是的現在整個歐盟都在做這個實驗所以請你們一定要聯合經濟部跟交通部因為交通部呢港口是交通部管的往下看全球排前11名的航商當中台灣佔了幾個你知道嗎\n316240\t323438\t我寫出來了嗎?前11名的占了3個啦前20名的占了4個我們總的運能啊占了全世界的一成\n324383\t344641\t那未來的船舶也是不是要用低碳燃料?是的,因為歐盟已經開始徵收。已經記錄了嘛。對,已經徵收了。所以不只我們的運輸的船隊要用低碳燃料,連它載運的這些委員機也是要改成類似像安這樣的一個氫能原料,是不是這樣子?是的。好,我稍微往下看。所以是不是能夠用台灣的航運優勢,政府積極地來輔導發展氫能儲運的產業?\n350830\t358439\t政府利用臺灣航運優勢﹑積極發展及輔導輕能民生應用和儲存船的可行性﹑一個月提出一個報告,可以嗎?\n","txt":"委員替代農美聯委員先行質詢。現在請鍾佳濱委員質詢。感謝主席。那麼謝謝政務機關總統、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體機關女士先生。有請我們劉主任委員。\n總委員好主委好最近大家都要密切注意你的發言有關於我們的產業跟能源政策我的標題是我們臺灣這些跨足國際供應鏈的產業要靠綠能而且要善用臺灣的優勢佈局、輕能儲運好那在您的很多訪談當中呢強調AI時代算力及國力對不對是的好那您提到了三個重點齁如果未來預估用電需求會增加那我們要考慮的這三個問題是第一總用電的需求我們滿足對不對電夠不夠\n第二是低碳的電夠不夠以及如何減碳這才是重點是不是這樣是的好那再來才是我們2050的淨零目標那麼根據我們很紅的最近的合作童子賢董事長他說AI運算、電動車、晶片都需要大量電力所以電力也是國力你同意嗎同意但是他後面說的核能可以幫助綠能這個我就要來請教一下你的意見企業需要的是不是穩定供電\n但是風光發電有供電的間歇性所以企業對於供電有焦慮所以因此考慮核能就你了解是不是這個原因我先解釋一下核能現在是這樣子核能是一個低碳電但是核廢料要得到妥善的儲存才有機會去探討它是不是綠電但是以歐盟現在來看它還不被認為綠電目前歐盟合乎這個標準只有芬蘭\n他的最高階的核廢處置場跟生活圈可以永久隔離的只有芬蘭做到所以我們現在的不是綠電那不在我的檢探範圍裡面在歐盟核能也只有芬蘭可以宣稱他的OL3他的電是綠電是不是這樣的意思\n在歐盟的話,這不是荷蘭,芬蘭這我可能要再理解一下,我之前聽到是歐盟到現在對核電能不能是綠電還是有,還在討論當中至少看起來好像勉強只有芬蘭,往下看所以他只是有機會,但機會是可能是5%,可能是50%,這個叫dependence那個討論的結果所以這要釐清,不然大家都以為歐盟認為呢,核能是,核電是綠電\n那麼積極發展符合RE100的再生能源這才是我們真正的重心是不是?沒錯,企業的壓力在這裡。RE100有沒有包括它的再生能源總列有沒有包括核電?目前是沒有。目前是沒有嗎?因為他沒有辦法。那目前我們再生能源的憑證能滿足業界的需求嗎?我們現在正在評估那目前我們一些以我們最新的路徑來看還差一些些那我們現在是準備這樣做就第一個是做IREC就是國際力電憑證\n那第二個呢我們台電這邊也會加速在那個探捕桌地方的減碳還有汽車的減碳我們有一個路徑去往這條路走這些產業這個需求都是一些外銷的大產業嗎?國內的中小企業需不需要?中小企業有外銷的目前都有這個需求所以總體來講需求一直在成長好往下看是的那我們看一下台積電台積電未來的佈局啊在台灣加重投資啊所以他3萬米的產能增加3倍他對綠電的需求是不是要增加很多?是的\n有人在說目前臺灣1000度的綠電當中臺積電買掉9999啊民間中小企業只有搶得到一度綠電你覺得這樣說法客觀嗎?這個細節我可能還要再去理解啦但是大部分要拿走了嘛現在應該\n我的認知是有些企業還是有買到他要的...剛剛都是大企業,中小企業拿不到,好往下看。我剛剛說的那個1000度電,只有1度電是中小企業拿得到的。所以呢,未來是不是要更加積極的推動RE100的認定的再生人員?是的,這個再生人員現在是會更積極一點,而且再生人員以風力發電來講喔,我瞭解大部分的廠商已經過了那個學習曲線了。應該會後面會加速。\n台灣的綠電包括風光發電還有呢因為有間歇性除了很重要所以氫是很好的台鐵你同意嗎是的好 那麼台灣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守如果只是用氫來替代進口的石化燃料來發電您覺得這樣的台灣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守了呢\n我不認為因為他是一個決戰未來能源的國際競爭力但是他只用來取代發電我的看法跟您交換一下意見其實呢往下看其實經濟發展、輕能的民生運用跟儲運產業很重要因為我們民生端比如說燃料電池的電動車、輕能車或者運輸端我們港口的儲運設施包括阿姆斯特丹、漢堡\n這些歐盟的國家都在大力的推動因為要進口這些氫能他用安或者其他方式進口他都需要有儲能設施和運輸設施的轉變是不是這樣子是的現在整個歐盟都在做這個實驗所以請你們一定要聯合經濟部跟交通部因為交通部呢港口是交通部管的往下看全球排前11名的航商當中台灣佔了幾個你知道嗎\n我寫出來了嗎?前11名的占了3個啦前20名的占了4個我們總的運能啊占了全世界的一成\n那未來的船舶也是不是要用低碳燃料?是的,因為歐盟已經開始徵收。已經記錄了嘛。對,已經徵收了。所以不只我們的運輸的船隊要用低碳燃料,連它載運的這些委員機也是要改成類似像安這樣的一個氫能原料,是不是這樣子?是的。好,我稍微往下看。所以是不是能夠用台灣的航運優勢,政府積極地來輔導發展氫能儲運的產業?\n政府利用臺灣航運優勢﹑積極發展及輔導輕能民生應用和儲存船的可行性﹑一個月提出一個報告,可以嗎?\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:07.192\n委 員 替 代 農 美 聯 委 員 先 行 質 詢 。 現 在 請 鍾 佳 濱 委 員 質 詢 。 感 謝 主 席 。 那 麼 謝 謝 政 務 機 關 總 統 、 官 員 、 會 長 、 工 作 夥 伴 、 媒 體 機 關 女 士 先 生 。 有 請 我 們 劉 主 任 委 員 。\n\n00:31.079 --> 00:59.221\n總 委 員 好 主 委 好 最 近 大 家 都 要 密 切 注 意 你 的 發 言 有 關 於 我 們 的 產 業 跟 能 源 政 策 我 的 標 題 是 我 們 臺 灣 這 些 跨 足 國 際 供 應 鏈 的 產 業 要 靠 綠 能 而 且 要 善 用 臺 灣 的 優 勢 佈 局 、 輕 能 儲 運 好 那 在 您 的 很 多 訪 談 當 中 呢 強 調 A I 時 代 算 力 及 國 力 對 不 對 是 的 好 那 您 提 到 了 三 個 重 點 齁 如 果 未 來 預 估 用 電 需 求 會 增 加 那 我 們 要 考 慮 的 這 三 個 問 題 是 第 一 總 用 電 的 需 求 我 們 滿 足 對 不 對 電 夠 不 夠\n\n01:01.072 --> 01:25.390\n第 二 是 低 碳 的 電 夠 不 夠 以 及 如 何 減 碳 這 才 是 重 點 是 不 是 這 樣 是 的 好 那 再 來 才 是 我 們 2 0 5 0 的 淨 零 目 標 那 麼 根 據 我 們 很 紅 的 最 近 的 合 作 童 子 賢 董 事 長 他 說 A I 運 算 、 電 動 車 、 晶 片 都 需 要 大 量 電 力 所 以 電 力 也 是 國 力 你 同 意 嗎 同 意 但 是 他 後 面 說 的 核 能 可 以 幫 助 綠 能 這 個 我 就 要 來 請 教 一 下 你 的 意 見 企 業 需 要 的 是 不 是 穩 定 供 電\n\n01:26.707 --> 01:52.674\n但 是 風 光 發 電 有 供 電 的 間 歇 性 所 以 企 業 對 於 供 電 有 焦 慮 所 以 因 此 考 慮 核 能 就 你 了 解 是 不 是 這 個 原 因 我 先 解 釋 一 下 核 能 現 在 是 這 樣 子 核 能 是 一 個 低 碳 電 但 是 核 廢 料 要 得 到 妥 善 的 儲 存 才 有 機 會 去 探 討 它 是 不 是 綠 電 但 是 以 歐 盟 現 在 來 看 它 還 不 被 認 為 綠 電 目 前 歐 盟 合 乎 這 個 標 準 只 有 芬 蘭\n\n01:53.394 --> 02:10.192\n他 的 最 高 階 的 核 廢 處 置 場 跟 生 活 圈 可 以 永 久 隔 離 的 只 有 芬 蘭 做 到 所 以 我 們 現 在 的 不 是 綠 電 那 不 在 我 的 檢 探 範 圍 裡 面 在 歐 盟 核 能 也 只 有 芬 蘭 可 以 宣 稱 他 的 O L 3 他 的 電 是 綠 電 是 不 是 這 樣 的 意 思\n\n02:11.594 --> 02:32.915\n在 歐 盟 的 話 , 這 不 是 荷 蘭 , 芬 蘭 這 我 可 能 要 再 理 解 一 下 , 我 之 前 聽 到 是 歐 盟 到 現 在 對 核 電 能 不 能 是 綠 電 還 是 有 , 還 在 討 論 當 中 至 少 看 起 來 好 像 勉 強 只 有 芬 蘭 , 往 下 看 所 以 他 只 是 有 機 會 , 但 機 會 是 可 能 是 5 % , 可 能 是 5 0 % , 這 個 叫 d e p e n d e n c e 那 個 討 論 的 結 果 所 以 這 要 釐 清 , 不 然 大 家 都 以 為 歐 盟 認 為 呢 , 核 能 是 , 核 電 是 綠 電\n\n02:34.016 --> 03:00.841\n那 麼 積 極 發 展 符 合 R E 1 0 0 的 再 生 能 源 這 才 是 我 們 真 正 的 重 心 是 不 是 ? 沒 錯 , 企 業 的 壓 力 在 這 裡 。 R E 1 0 0 有 沒 有 包 括 它 的 再 生 能 源 總 列 有 沒 有 包 括 核 電 ? 目 前 是 沒 有 。 目 前 是 沒 有 嗎 ? 因 為 他 沒 有 辦 法 。 那 目 前 我 們 再 生 能 源 的 憑 證 能 滿 足 業 界 的 需 求 嗎 ? 我 們 現 在 正 在 評 估 那 目 前 我 們 一 些 以 我 們 最 新 的 路 徑 來 看 還 差 一 些 些 那 我 們 現 在 是 準 備 這 樣 做 就 第 一 個 是 做 I R E C 就 是 國 際 力 電 憑 證\n\n03:02.489 --> 03:30.075\n那 第 二 個 呢 我 們 台 電 這 邊 也 會 加 速 在 那 個 探 捕 桌 地 方 的 減 碳 還 有 汽 車 的 減 碳 我 們 有 一 個 路 徑 去 往 這 條 路 走 這 些 產 業 這 個 需 求 都 是 一 些 外 銷 的 大 產 業 嗎 ? 國 內 的 中 小 企 業 需 不 需 要 ? 中 小 企 業 有 外 銷 的 目 前 都 有 這 個 需 求 所 以 總 體 來 講 需 求 一 直 在 成 長 好 往 下 看 是 的 那 我 們 看 一 下 台 積 電 台 積 電 未 來 的 佈 局 啊 在 台 灣 加 重 投 資 啊 所 以 他 3 萬 米 的 產 能 增 加 3 倍 他 對 綠 電 的 需 求 是 不 是 要 增 加 很 多 ? 是 的\n\n03:30.731 --> 03:38.081\n有 人 在 說 目 前 臺 灣 1 0 0 0 度 的 綠 電 當 中 臺 積 電 買 掉 9 9 9 9 啊 民 間 中 小 企 業 只 有 搶 得 到 一 度 綠 電 你 覺 得 這 樣 說 法 客 觀 嗎 ? 這 個 細 節 我 可 能 還 要 再 去 理 解 啦 但 是 大 部 分 要 拿 走 了 嘛 現 在 應 該\n\n03:50.351 --> 04:11.570\n我 的 認 知 是 有 些 企 業 還 是 有 買 到 他 要 的 . . . 剛 剛 都 是 大 企 業 , 中 小 企 業 拿 不 到 , 好 往 下 看 。 我 剛 剛 說 的 那 個 1 0 0 0 度 電 , 只 有 1 度 電 是 中 小 企 業 拿 得 到 的 。 所 以 呢 , 未 來 是 不 是 要 更 加 積 極 的 推 動 R E 1 0 0 的 認 定 的 再 生 人 員 ? 是 的 , 這 個 再 生 人 員 現 在 是 會 更 積 極 一 點 , 而 且 再 生 人 員 以 風 力 發 電 來 講 喔 , 我 瞭 解 大 部 分 的 廠 商 已 經 過 了 那 個 學 習 曲 線 了 。 應 該 會 後 面 會 加 速 。\n\n04:13.832 --> 04:30.170\n台 灣 的 綠 電 包 括 風 光 發 電 還 有 呢 因 為 有 間 歇 性 除 了 很 重 要 所 以 氫 是 很 好 的 台 鐵 你 同 意 嗎 是 的 好 那 麼 台 灣 的 氫 能 產 業 布 局 是 不 是 太 保 守 如 果 只 是 用 氫 來 替 代 進 口 的 石 化 燃 料 來 發 電 您 覺 得 這 樣 的 台 灣 的 氫 能 產 業 布 局 是 不 是 太 保 守 了 呢\n\n04:30.991 --> 04:52.354\n我 不 認 為 因 為 他 是 一 個 決 戰 未 來 能 源 的 國 際 競 爭 力 但 是 他 只 用 來 取 代 發 電 我 的 看 法 跟 您 交 換 一 下 意 見 其 實 呢 往 下 看 其 實 經 濟 發 展 、 輕 能 的 民 生 運 用 跟 儲 運 產 業 很 重 要 因 為 我 們 民 生 端 比 如 說 燃 料 電 池 的 電 動 車 、 輕 能 車 或 者 運 輸 端 我 們 港 口 的 儲 運 設 施 包 括 阿 姆 斯 特 丹 、 漢 堡\n\n04:52.954 --> 05:13.256\n這 些 歐 盟 的 國 家 都 在 大 力 的 推 動 因 為 要 進 口 這 些 氫 能 他 用 安 或 者 其 他 方 式 進 口 他 都 需 要 有 儲 能 設 施 和 運 輸 設 施 的 轉 變 是 不 是 這 樣 子 是 的 現 在 整 個 歐 盟 都 在 做 這 個 實 驗 所 以 請 你 們 一 定 要 聯 合 經 濟 部 跟 交 通 部 因 為 交 通 部 呢 港 口 是 交 通 部 管 的 往 下 看 全 球 排 前 1 1 名 的 航 商 當 中 台 灣 佔 了 幾 個 你 知 道 嗎\n\n05:16.240 --> 05:23.438\n我 寫 出 來 了 嗎 ? 前 1 1 名 的 占 了 3 個 啦 前 2 0 名 的 占 了 4 個 我 們 總 的 運 能 啊 占 了 全 世 界 的 一 成\n\n05:24.383 --> 05:44.641\n那 未 來 的 船 舶 也 是 不 是 要 用 低 碳 燃 料 ? 是 的 , 因 為 歐 盟 已 經 開 始 徵 收 。 已 經 記 錄 了 嘛 。 對 , 已 經 徵 收 了 。 所 以 不 只 我 們 的 運 輸 的 船 隊 要 用 低 碳 燃 料 , 連 它 載 運 的 這 些 委 員 機 也 是 要 改 成 類 似 像 安 這 樣 的 一 個 氫 能 原 料 , 是 不 是 這 樣 子 ? 是 的 。 好 , 我 稍 微 往 下 看 。 所 以 是 不 是 能 夠 用 台 灣 的 航 運 優 勢 , 政 府 積 極 地 來 輔 導 發 展 氫 能 儲 運 的 產 業 ?\n\n05:50.830 --> 05:58.439\n政 府 利 用 臺 灣 航 運 優 勢 ﹑ 積 極 發 展 及 輔 導 輕 能 民 生 應 用 和 儲 存 船 的 可 行 性 ﹑ 一 個 月 提 出 一 個 報 告 , 可 以 嗎 ?\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":7.192,"text":"委員替代農美聯委員先行質詢。現在請鍾佳濱委員質詢。感謝主席。那麼謝謝政務機關總統、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體機關女士先生。有請我們劉主任委員。"},{"start":31.079,"end":59.221,"text":"總委員好主委好最近大家都要密切注意你的發言有關於我們的產業跟能源政策我的標題是我們臺灣這些跨足國際供應鏈的產業要靠綠能而且要善用臺灣的優勢佈局、輕能儲運好那在您的很多訪談當中呢強調AI時代算力及國力對不對是的好那您提到了三個重點齁如果未來預估用電需求會增加那我們要考慮的這三個問題是第一總用電的需求我們滿足對不對電夠不夠"},{"start":61.072,"end":85.39,"text":"第二是低碳的電夠不夠以及如何減碳這才是重點是不是這樣是的好那再來才是我們2050的淨零目標那麼根據我們很紅的最近的合作童子賢董事長他說AI運算、電動車、晶片都需要大量電力所以電力也是國力你同意嗎同意但是他後面說的核能可以幫助綠能這個我就要來請教一下你的意見企業需要的是不是穩定供電"},{"start":86.707,"end":112.674,"text":"但是風光發電有供電的間歇性所以企業對於供電有焦慮所以因此考慮核能就你了解是不是這個原因我先解釋一下核能現在是這樣子核能是一個低碳電但是核廢料要得到妥善的儲存才有機會去探討它是不是綠電但是以歐盟現在來看它還不被認為綠電目前歐盟合乎這個標準只有芬蘭"},{"start":113.394,"end":130.192,"text":"他的最高階的核廢處置場跟生活圈可以永久隔離的只有芬蘭做到所以我們現在的不是綠電那不在我的檢探範圍裡面在歐盟核能也只有芬蘭可以宣稱他的OL3他的電是綠電是不是這樣的意思"},{"start":131.594,"end":152.915,"text":"在歐盟的話,這不是荷蘭,芬蘭這我可能要再理解一下,我之前聽到是歐盟到現在對核電能不能是綠電還是有,還在討論當中至少看起來好像勉強只有芬蘭,往下看所以他只是有機會,但機會是可能是5%,可能是50%,這個叫dependence那個討論的結果所以這要釐清,不然大家都以為歐盟認為呢,核能是,核電是綠電"},{"start":154.016,"end":180.841,"text":"那麼積極發展符合RE100的再生能源這才是我們真正的重心是不是?沒錯,企業的壓力在這裡。RE100有沒有包括它的再生能源總列有沒有包括核電?目前是沒有。目前是沒有嗎?因為他沒有辦法。那目前我們再生能源的憑證能滿足業界的需求嗎?我們現在正在評估那目前我們一些以我們最新的路徑來看還差一些些那我們現在是準備這樣做就第一個是做IREC就是國際力電憑證"},{"start":182.489,"end":210.075,"text":"那第二個呢我們台電這邊也會加速在那個探捕桌地方的減碳還有汽車的減碳我們有一個路徑去往這條路走這些產業這個需求都是一些外銷的大產業嗎?國內的中小企業需不需要?中小企業有外銷的目前都有這個需求所以總體來講需求一直在成長好往下看是的那我們看一下台積電台積電未來的佈局啊在台灣加重投資啊所以他3萬米的產能增加3倍他對綠電的需求是不是要增加很多?是的"},{"start":210.731,"end":218.081,"text":"有人在說目前臺灣1000度的綠電當中臺積電買掉9999啊民間中小企業只有搶得到一度綠電你覺得這樣說法客觀嗎?這個細節我可能還要再去理解啦但是大部分要拿走了嘛現在應該"},{"start":230.351,"end":251.57,"text":"我的認知是有些企業還是有買到他要的...剛剛都是大企業,中小企業拿不到,好往下看。我剛剛說的那個1000度電,只有1度電是中小企業拿得到的。所以呢,未來是不是要更加積極的推動RE100的認定的再生人員?是的,這個再生人員現在是會更積極一點,而且再生人員以風力發電來講喔,我瞭解大部分的廠商已經過了那個學習曲線了。應該會後面會加速。"},{"start":253.832,"end":270.17,"text":"台灣的綠電包括風光發電還有呢因為有間歇性除了很重要所以氫是很好的台鐵你同意嗎是的好 那麼台灣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守如果只是用氫來替代進口的石化燃料來發電您覺得這樣的台灣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守了呢"},{"start":270.991,"end":292.354,"text":"我不認為因為他是一個決戰未來能源的國際競爭力但是他只用來取代發電我的看法跟您交換一下意見其實呢往下看其實經濟發展、輕能的民生運用跟儲運產業很重要因為我們民生端比如說燃料電池的電動車、輕能車或者運輸端我們港口的儲運設施包括阿姆斯特丹、漢堡"},{"start":292.954,"end":313.256,"text":"這些歐盟的國家都在大力的推動因為要進口這些氫能他用安或者其他方式進口他都需要有儲能設施和運輸設施的轉變是不是這樣子是的現在整個歐盟都在做這個實驗所以請你們一定要聯合經濟部跟交通部因為交通部呢港口是交通部管的往下看全球排前11名的航商當中台灣佔了幾個你知道嗎"},{"start":316.24,"end":323.438,"text":"我寫出來了嗎?前11名的占了3個啦前20名的占了4個我們總的運能啊占了全世界的一成"},{"start":324.383,"end":344.641,"text":"那未來的船舶也是不是要用低碳燃料?是的,因為歐盟已經開始徵收。已經記錄了嘛。對,已經徵收了。所以不只我們的運輸的船隊要用低碳燃料,連它載運的這些委員機也是要改成類似像安這樣的一個氫能原料,是不是這樣子?是的。好,我稍微往下看。所以是不是能夠用台灣的航運優勢,政府積極地來輔導發展氫能儲運的產業?"},{"start":350.83,"end":358.439,"text":"政府利用臺灣航運優勢﹑積極發展及輔導輕能民生應用和儲存船的可行性﹑一個月提出一個報告,可以嗎?"}]}}}}