{"id":153368,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153368","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba2a617fc7f54b54ed4622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e91374462a95f0ae2b031845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:29:32 - 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重 視 這 個 議 題 民 主 黨 很 重 視 這 個 議 題 因 為 從 高 爾 開 始 就 是 一 直 在 講 這 個 全 球 暖 化 的 問 題\n\n2\n00:00:29,022 --> 00:00:55,083\n但 是 川 普 卻 認 為 這 是 一 個 假 議 題 當 然 川 普 的 講 法 有 點 極 端 那 是 兩 種 完 全 不 同 的 思 考 的 方 式 那 我 們 現 在 台 灣 照 現 在 的 講 法 都 是 一 面 倒 都 是 朝 向 這 個 近 鄰 這 個 方 向 這 樣 子 是 對 的 嗎 有 沒 有 另 外 一 種 思 考 是 不 是 稍 微 要 平 衡 思 考 一 下 呢\n\n3\n00:00:56,744 --> 00:01:22,961\n謝 委 員 其 實 有 關 減 碳 當 然 在 不 管 是 就 我 所 知 啦 就 學 術 或 是 在 很 多 其 實 是 有 爭 議 不 過 現 在 的 主 流 思 維 還 是 跟 我 們 現 在 所 做 的 方 向 是 一 致 的 主 流 思 維 啦 主 流 思 維 要 減 碳 然 後 現 在 碳 權 要 買 賣 有 人 就 說 這 是 一 筆 好 生 意 啊 比 爾 蓋 茲 在 美 國 買 了 非 常 多 的 農 場 他 準 備 要 大 賺 一 筆\n\n4\n00:01:24,434 --> 00:01:49,429\n因 為 農 場 只 要 有 種 樹 只 要 種 綠 色 植 物 它 的 碳 的 買 賣 它 就 可 以 源 源 不 斷 的 收 入 也 有 這 樣 子 的 講 法 同 一 個 時 間 全 世 界 也 沒 有 一 致 的 標 準 如 果 台 灣 對 碳 權 的 要 求 這 麼 的 先 進 這 麼 的 前 衛 甚 至 要 達 到 跟 歐 洲 最 先 進 地 方 一 樣 的 標 準 它 的 優 勝 劣 敗 有 沒 有 評 估 過\n\n5\n00:01:56,469 --> 00:02:20,722\n這 個 部 分 的 話 我 想 說 我 們 現 在 以 金 管 會 的 立 場 我 們 大 概 會 從 兩 個 方 向 走 啦 一 個 就 是 金 融 業 的 本 身 另 外 就 是 我 們 透 過 上 市 會 公 司 的 管 理 去 導 引 大 家 往 這 個 方 向 走 有 , 你 的 報 告 裡 面 是 這 樣 講 的 對 對 當 然 就 是 說 這 個 我 們 的 目 標 其 實 設 的 比 較 遠 以 後 但 是 我 們 希 望 這 既 然 是 國 家 的 政 策 我 們 就 逐 步 來 推 動 當 然 這 個 評 估 的 部 分 呢 我 們 是 按 照 我 們 自 己 金 管 會 這 樣 的 規 劃 進 程 在 進 行\n\n6\n00:02:23,459 --> 00:02:49,156\n好 那 你 有 沒 有 聽 過 概 念 叫 綠 色 通 膨 因 為 這 些 都 是 要 成 本 的 嘛 我 舉 個 例 子 我 剛 剛 為 什 麼 講 說 全 世 界 標 準 不 一 樣 會 產 生 問 題 你 拿 這 樣 的 簡 單 標 準 要 求 發 展 中 國 家 他 有 能 力 可 以 遵 守 嗎 要 求 中 國 他 有 辦 法 可 以 遵 守 嗎 要 求 非 洲 、 中 亞 這 些 國 家 他 有 辦 法 遵 守 嗎\n\n7\n00:02:51,508 --> 00:03:12,561\n明 顯 短 期 之 內 不 可 能 嘛 那 當 他 不 遵 守 的 時 候 台 灣 的 貿 易 處 在 一 個 先 天 上 不 利 的 地 位 因 為 我 們 被 中 國 長 期 欺 負 打 壓 所 以 我 們 很 多 的 國 際 之 間 的 貿 易 組 織 我 們 是 進 不 去 的 我 們 本 身 在 台 灣 的 製 造 業 關 稅 平 均 起 來 就 比 別 的 地 方 製 造 業 要 再 高 那 當 其 他 國 家 不 用\n\n8\n00:03:17,106 --> 00:03:27,262\n這 些 碳 費 不 用 這 些 成 本 的 時 候 台 灣 卻 急 著 要 把 它 抓 進 來 這 某 一 個 角 度 是 不 是 在 大 戰 略 上 面 要 讓 台 灣 的 製 造 業 要 離 開 台 灣 因 為 成 本 墊 高 了 之 後\n\n9\n00:03:32,591 --> 00:03:50,041\n有 一 部 分 啦 當 然 有 一 部 分 說 我 在 技 術 上 可 以 超 越 我 那 非 常 先 進 的 企 業 我 不 受 這 個 控 制 我 不 受 這 個 影 響 但 是 那 一 些 為 了 2 % 、 3 % 利 潤 在 苦 苦 求 生 謀 著 生 存 的 這 些 中 小 企 業 在 這 個 在 被 墊 高 之 後 他 如 何 生 存 呢\n\n10\n00:03:52,060 --> 00:04:07,999\n我 們 在 推 動 永 續 金 融 裡 面 有 一 個 很 重 要 是 要 協 助 企 業 永 續 轉 型 我 們 透 過 我 們 的 投 融 資 待 放 來 協 助 所 以 像 我 們 推 動 一 些 所 謂 綠 色 的 放 款 綠 色 的 金 融 商 品 其 中 某 一 部 分 就 是 要 協 助 我 們 比 如 說 企 業 來\n\n11\n00:04:08,860 --> 00:04:11,540\n轉 型 跟 理 論 講 起 來 都 很 容 易 啊 坐 在 學 術 殿 堂 或 是 在 國 會 裡 面 這 樣 談 都 垮 垮 而 談 很 容 易 啊 問 題 是 到 了 製 造 業\n\n12\n00:04:37,591 --> 00:04:40,392\n到 了 這 些 中 小 企 業 他 面 臨 的 就 是 生 存 的 問 題 耶 近 年 轉 型 貸 款 給 他 要 求 他 要 升 級 有 這 麼 容 易 嗎 我 記 得 之 前 有 政 治 人 物 說 2 0 3 0 年 所 有 的 燃 油 機 車 都 不 能 用 了 結 果 引 起 多 大 的 風 暴 你 知 道 嗎 好 那 我 現 在 再 問 你 我 們 就 不 要 講 到 這 個 中 小 企 業 了 中 鋼 就 好 中 鋼 他 一 年 的 碳 權 要 交 多 少 錢\n\n13\n00:05:06,564 --> 00:05:27,119\n到 目 前 這 樣 算 起 來 是 不 是 至 少 幾 十 億 以 上 那 因 為 中 國 的 大 量 傾 銷 我 們 的 鋼 板 就 已 經 很 難 生 存 了 在 全 世 界 就 幾 乎 都 沒 有 競 爭 力 了 因 為 中 國 是 用 國 家 在 後 面 補 貼 的 嘛 他 是 一 個 不 公 平 的 貿 易 嘛 那 這 時 候 我 們 自 己 再 把 自 己 再 加 上 去 然 後 跟 你 競 爭 的 那 個 企 業 不 用 他 不 用 去 這 些 成 本 那 到 底 要 如 何 競 爭 啊\n\n14\n00:05:34,133 --> 00:05:49,149\n現 在 要 問 的 是 一 個 這 樣 的 問 題 當 然 我 今 天 問 的 這 個 問 題 可 能 說 跟 這 個 顯 學 啦 跟 同 事 說 大 家 就 是 要 走 淨 零 轉 型 走 淨 零 轉 型 要 談 也 可 以 談 啊 問 題 是 你 有 沒 有 思 考 到 另 一 面 的 問 題 這 個 速 度 如 果 太 快 或 是 說 這 一 些 的 配 套 如 果 不 足\n\n15\n00:05:55,885 --> 00:06:14,852\n每 一 家 的 中 小 企 業 就 是 面 臨 這 些 員 工 的 生 存 問 題 製 造 業 到 底 台 灣 到 底 要 不 要 你 是 要 趕 出 去 嗎 還 是 說 台 灣 都 不 要 低 階 製 造 業 還 是 要 像 美 國 一 樣 過 去 全 球 化 讓 它 的 製 造 業 到 全 世 界 去 然 後 現 在 才 開 始 用 大 量 的 這 個 政 策 補 貼 要 求 製 造 業 重 返 美 國\n\n16\n00:06:17,712 --> 00:06:36,457\n這 個 思 考 不 是 這 麼 簡 單 說 我 這 個 淨 體 轉 型 大 家 都 希 望 環 境 越 來 越 好 有 誰 希 望 環 境 壞 但 是 問 題 是 要 做 得 到 啊 那 這 一 方 面 如 果 你 們 吹 太 暗 的 時 候 吹 得 太 快 我 很 擔 心 台 灣 社 會 到 底 受 得 了 受 不 了\n\n17\n00:06:38,518 --> 00:07:02,279\n我 們 從 金 管 會 的 立 場 我 們 對 剛 才 講 金 融 機 構 跟 上 市 櫃 公 司 的 管 理 上 面 我 們 現 在 也 有 體 察 到 這 一 點 我 們 採 取 都 是 用 鼓 勵 的 措 施 而 不 是 用 強 制 的 這 樣 措 施 就 剛 剛 那 個 講 這 個 E S G 評 鑑 或 永 續 金 融 評 鑑 我 們 都 是 採 用 鼓 勵 的 方 式 用 導 引 畢 竟 剛 才 牽 涉 到 比 如 說 我 們 的 探 權 、 探 費 還 有 探 稅 的 問 題 都 不 是 金 管 會 所 能 主 政\n\n18\n00:07:03,021 --> 00:07:25,223\n我 知 道 不 是 你 們 的 主 政 我 今 天 因 為 今 天 要 談 這 個 問 題 在 談 這 個 問 題 我 就 主 要 要 問 你 嘛 因 為 你 要 了 解 你 要 思 考 的 是 全 體 而 不 是 政 治 這 個 東 西 你 要 走 在 眾 人 前 的 一 步 可 以 引 導 眾 人 眾 人 看 得 到 你 走 得 太 遠 看 不 到 的 時 候 比 較 先 知 啊 自 古 先 知 都 是 寂 寞 的 因 為 跟 不 上 啊\n\n19\n00:07:26,072 --> 00:07:33,114\n我 在 同 樣 的 邏 輯 思 考 方 式 回 來 請 教 你 另 外 一 個 問 題 你 獨 立 董 事 現 在 要 弄 心 智 嘛\n\n20\n00:07:33,956 --> 00:07:34,756\n有 提 出 這 樣 的 政 策 嗎\n\n21\n00:08:01,530 --> 00:08:09,601\n然 後 學 界 立 刻 就 說 那 人 才 荒 啊 你 獨 立 董 事 的 人 要 從 哪 裡 來 啊 哪 裡 有 這 麼 多 的 獨 立 董 事 可 以 用 啊 是 不 是 要 思 考 這 個 問 題\n\n22\n00:08:13,099 --> 00:08:35,106\n謝 謝 委 員 那 其 實 我 們 對 於 這 個 獨 立 董 事 任 期 就 有 一 個 上 限 規 定 是 要 考 慮 到 他 的 獨 立 性 的 維 持 那 再 來 我 們 有 那 個 政 績 會 有 個 獨 立 獨 立 董 事 人 才 庫 上 面 也 有 協 助 上 市 櫃 公 司 去 尋 找 他 的 獨 立 董 事 的 現 在 應 該 有 1 5 0 0 位 符 合 資 格 的 候 選 人 在 那 個 資 料 庫 上 面\n\n23\n00:08:50,748 --> 00:09:18,599\n有 一 半 以 上 不 可 以 連 任 三 次 以 上 喔 對 對 不 能 連 任 三 屆 那 現 在 是 主 要 是 我 們 現 在 根 據 我 們 的 法 律 規 定 一 個 人 可 以 兼 任 四 個 獨 立 董 事 所 以 我 們 有 1 5 0 0 個 人 這 樣 我 們 初 步 的 評 估 應 該 是 現 在 是 量 能 是 夠 只 是 說 適 不 適 合 那 是 由 他 們 各 個 公 司 來 評 估 那 所 以 這 個 人 才 顧 1 5 0 0 多 人 他 們 就 可 以 成 立 獨 統 俱 樂 部 跟 公 司 沒 有 關 係 我 有 這 個 資 格 你 們 就 得 來 騙 我 不 然 你 人 才 方 不 夠 啊\n\n24\n00:09:19,981 --> 00:09:41,141\n這 是 供 給 跟 需 求 的 問 題 啊 這 個 是 簡 單 的 數 學 問 題 嘛 所 以 我 具 備 這 個 資 格 假 設 有 一 天 我 不 當 立 委 了 我 律 師 我 就 掛 進 人 才 庫 那 不 相 干 不 認 識 的 這 些 公 司 就 來 請 我 當 讀 董 是 這 樣 的 概 念 嗎 那 我 對 公 司 完 全 沒 有 股 份 公 司 的 經 營 好 壞 我 要 如 何 負 責\n\n25\n00:09:42,230 --> 00:09:47,311\n律 師 哪 有 專 長 不 符 合 公 司 的 董 事 、 董 監 事 、 律 師 、 會 計 師 都 是 非 常 符 合 資 格 的 條 件 那 我 只 是 要 跟 你 講 說 制 度 的 推 行\n\n26\n00:10:04,255 --> 00:10:31,984\n有 它 的 合 理 性 但 是 要 循 序 漸 進 你 要 抓 住 那 個 t e m p o 啦 你 有 的 時 候 太 急 、 太 趕 另 外 一 點 過 去 公 司 的 設 計 就 我 大 學 的 時 候 念 的 公 司 法 回 去 當 董 監 事 是 因 為 我 對 這 間 公 司 我 有 一 個 比 較 大 的 持 股 所 以 公 司 好 我 會 跟 著 好 公 司 不 好 我 會 跟 著 不 好 因 為 是 我 的 財 產 那 如 果 現 在 都 大 量 用 獨 董 公 司 沒 有 持 股 也 可 以 都 用 這 樣 的 概 念 來 的 時 候 那 公 司 經 營 的 成 敗\n\n27\n00:10:34,744 --> 00:10:36,985\n吳 秉 叡 委 員 的 質 詢 接 著 我 們 請 賴 世 保 委 員 質 詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1530\t27432\t討論這個議題我覺得那個範圍很大尤其是檢量減碳中心這個碳那是現在是一個很夯的這個話題可是你了不了解其實並不是大家都是朝著一致的看法像美國總統拜登他當然非常重視這個議題民主黨很重視這個議題因為從高爾開始就是一直在講這個全球暖化的問題\n29022\t55083\t但是川普卻認為這是一個假議題當然川普的講法有點極端那是兩種完全不同的思考的方式那我們現在台灣照現在的講法都是一面倒都是朝向這個近鄰這個方向這樣子是對的嗎有沒有另外一種思考是不是稍微要平衡思考一下呢\n56744\t82961\t謝委員其實有關減碳當然在不管是就我所知啦就學術或是在很多其實是有爭議不過現在的主流思維還是跟我們現在所做的方向是一致的主流思維啦主流思維要減碳然後現在碳權要買賣有人就說這是一筆好生意啊比爾蓋茲在美國買了非常多的農場他準備要大賺一筆\n84434\t109429\t因為農場只要有種樹只要種綠色植物它的碳的買賣它就可以源源不斷的收入也有這樣子的講法同一個時間全世界也沒有一致的標準如果台灣對碳權的要求這麼的先進這麼的前衛甚至要達到跟歐洲最先進地方一樣的標準它的優勝劣敗有沒有評估過\n116469\t140722\t這個部分的話我想說我們現在以金管會的立場我們大概會從兩個方向走啦一個就是金融業的本身另外就是我們透過上市會公司的管理去導引大家往這個方向走有,你的報告裡面是這樣講的對對當然就是說這個我們的目標其實設的比較遠以後但是我們希望這既然是國家的政策我們就逐步來推動當然這個評估的部分呢我們是按照我們自己金管會這樣的規劃進程在進行\n143459\t169156\t好那你有沒有聽過概念叫綠色通膨因為這些都是要成本的嘛我舉個例子我剛剛為什麼講說全世界標準不一樣會產生問題你拿這樣的簡單標準要求發展中國家他有能力可以遵守嗎要求中國他有辦法可以遵守嗎要求非洲、中亞這些國家他有辦法遵守嗎\n171508\t192561\t明顯短期之內不可能嘛那當他不遵守的時候台灣的貿易處在一個先天上不利的地位因為我們被中國長期欺負打壓所以我們很多的國際之間的貿易組織我們是進不去的我們本身在台灣的製造業關稅平均起來就比別的地方製造業要再高那當其他國家不用\n197106\t207262\t這些碳費不用這些成本的時候台灣卻急著要把它抓進來這某一個角度是不是在大戰略上面要讓台灣的製造業要離開台灣因為成本墊高了之後\n212591\t230041\t有一部分啦當然有一部分說我在技術上可以超越我那非常先進的企業我不受這個控制我不受這個影響但是那一些為了2%、3%利潤在苦苦求生謀著生存的這些中小企業在這個在被墊高之後他如何生存呢\n232060\t247999\t我們在推動永續金融裡面有一個很重要是要協助企業永續轉型我們透過我們的投融資待放來協助所以像我們推動一些所謂綠色的放款綠色的金融商品其中某一部分就是要協助我們比如說企業來\n248860\t251540\t轉型跟理論講起來都很容易啊坐在學術殿堂或是在國會裡面這樣談都垮垮而談很容易啊問題是到了製造業\n277591\t280392\t到了這些中小企業他面臨的就是生存的問題耶近年轉型貸款給他要求他要升級有這麼容易嗎我記得之前有政治人物說2030年所有的燃油機車都不能用了結果引起多大的風暴你知道嗎好那我現在再問你我們就不要講到這個中小企業了中鋼就好中鋼他一年的碳權要交多少錢\n306564\t327119\t到目前這樣算起來是不是至少幾十億以上那因為中國的大量傾銷我們的鋼板就已經很難生存了在全世界就幾乎都沒有競爭力了因為中國是用國家在後面補貼的嘛他是一個不公平的貿易嘛那這時候我們自己再把自己再加上去然後跟你競爭的那個企業不用他不用去這些成本那到底要如何競爭啊\n334133\t349149\t現在要問的是一個這樣的問題當然我今天問的這個問題可能說跟這個顯學啦 跟同事說大家就是要走淨零轉型走淨零轉型 要談也可以談啊問題是你有沒有思考到另一面的問題這個速度如果太快或是說這一些的配套如果不足\n355885\t374852\t每一家的中小企業就是面臨這些員工的生存問題製造業到底 台灣到底要不要 你是要趕出去嗎還是說台灣都不要低階製造業還是要像美國一樣過去全球化讓它的製造業到全世界去然後現在才開始用大量的這個政策補貼要求製造業重返美國\n377712\t396457\t這個思考不是這麼簡單說我這個淨體轉型大家都希望環境越來越好有誰希望環境壞但是問題是要做得到啊那這一方面如果你們吹太暗的時候吹得太快我很擔心台灣社會到底受得了受不了\n398518\t422279\t我們從金管會的立場我們對剛才講金融機構跟上市櫃公司的管理上面我們現在也有體察到這一點我們採取都是用鼓勵的措施而不是用強制的這樣措施就剛剛那個講這個ESG評鑑或永續金融評鑑我們都是採用鼓勵的方式用導引畢竟剛才牽涉到比如說我們的探權、探費還有探稅的問題都不是金管會所能主政\n423021\t445223\t我知道不是你們的主政我今天因為今天要談這個問題在談這個問題我就主要要問你嘛因為你要了解你要思考的是全體而不是政治這個東西你要走在眾人前的一步可以引導眾人眾人看得到你走得太遠看不到的時候比較先知啊自古先知都是寂寞的因為跟不上啊\n446072\t453114\t我在同樣的邏輯思考方式回來請教你另外一個問題你獨立董事現在要弄心智嘛\n453956\t454756\t有提出這樣的政策嗎\n481530\t489601\t然後學界立刻就說那人才荒啊你獨立董事的人要從哪裡來啊哪裡有這麼多的獨立董事可以用啊是不是要思考這個問題\n493099\t515106\t謝謝委員那其實我們對於這個獨立董事任期就有一個上限規定是要考慮到他的獨立性的維持那再來我們有那個政績會有個獨立獨立董事人才庫上面也有協助上市櫃公司去尋找他的獨立董事的現在應該有1500位符合資格的候選人在那個資料庫上面\n515691\t529787\t吳秉叡\n530748\t558599\t有一半以上不可以連任三次以上喔對對不能連任三屆那現在是主要是我們現在根據我們的法律規定一個人可以兼任四個獨立董事所以我們有1500個人這樣我們初步的評估應該是現在是量能是夠只是說適不適合那是由他們各個公司來評估那所以這個人才顧1500多人他們就可以成立獨統俱樂部跟公司沒有關係我有這個資格你們就得來騙我不然你人才方不夠啊\n559981\t581141\t這是供給跟需求的問題啊這個是簡單的數學問題嘛所以我具備這個資格假設有一天我不當立委了我律師我就掛進人才庫那不相干不認識的這些公司就來請我當讀董是這樣的概念嗎那我對公司完全沒有股份公司的經營好壞我要如何負責\n582230\t587311\t律師哪有專長不符合公司的董事、董監事、律師、會計師都是非常符合資格的條件那我只是要跟你講說制度的推行\n604255\t631984\t有它的合理性但是要循序漸進你要抓住那個tempo啦你有的時候太急、太趕另外一點過去公司的設計就我大學的時候念的公司法回去當董監事是因為我對這間公司我有一個比較大的持股所以公司好我會跟著好公司不好我會跟著不好因為是我的財產那如果現在都大量用獨董公司沒有持股也可以都用這樣的概念來的時候那公司經營的成敗\n634744\t636985\t吳秉叡委員的質詢接著我們請賴世保委員質詢\n","txt":"討論這個議題我覺得那個範圍很大尤其是檢量減碳中心這個碳那是現在是一個很夯的這個話題可是你了不了解其實並不是大家都是朝著一致的看法像美國總統拜登他當然非常重視這個議題民主黨很重視這個議題因為從高爾開始就是一直在講這個全球暖化的問題\n但是川普卻認為這是一個假議題當然川普的講法有點極端那是兩種完全不同的思考的方式那我們現在台灣照現在的講法都是一面倒都是朝向這個近鄰這個方向這樣子是對的嗎有沒有另外一種思考是不是稍微要平衡思考一下呢\n謝委員其實有關減碳當然在不管是就我所知啦就學術或是在很多其實是有爭議不過現在的主流思維還是跟我們現在所做的方向是一致的主流思維啦主流思維要減碳然後現在碳權要買賣有人就說這是一筆好生意啊比爾蓋茲在美國買了非常多的農場他準備要大賺一筆\n因為農場只要有種樹只要種綠色植物它的碳的買賣它就可以源源不斷的收入也有這樣子的講法同一個時間全世界也沒有一致的標準如果台灣對碳權的要求這麼的先進這麼的前衛甚至要達到跟歐洲最先進地方一樣的標準它的優勝劣敗有沒有評估過\n這個部分的話我想說我們現在以金管會的立場我們大概會從兩個方向走啦一個就是金融業的本身另外就是我們透過上市會公司的管理去導引大家往這個方向走有,你的報告裡面是這樣講的對對當然就是說這個我們的目標其實設的比較遠以後但是我們希望這既然是國家的政策我們就逐步來推動當然這個評估的部分呢我們是按照我們自己金管會這樣的規劃進程在進行\n好那你有沒有聽過概念叫綠色通膨因為這些都是要成本的嘛我舉個例子我剛剛為什麼講說全世界標準不一樣會產生問題你拿這樣的簡單標準要求發展中國家他有能力可以遵守嗎要求中國他有辦法可以遵守嗎要求非洲、中亞這些國家他有辦法遵守嗎\n明顯短期之內不可能嘛那當他不遵守的時候台灣的貿易處在一個先天上不利的地位因為我們被中國長期欺負打壓所以我們很多的國際之間的貿易組織我們是進不去的我們本身在台灣的製造業關稅平均起來就比別的地方製造業要再高那當其他國家不用\n這些碳費不用這些成本的時候台灣卻急著要把它抓進來這某一個角度是不是在大戰略上面要讓台灣的製造業要離開台灣因為成本墊高了之後\n有一部分啦當然有一部分說我在技術上可以超越我那非常先進的企業我不受這個控制我不受這個影響但是那一些為了2%、3%利潤在苦苦求生謀著生存的這些中小企業在這個在被墊高之後他如何生存呢\n我們在推動永續金融裡面有一個很重要是要協助企業永續轉型我們透過我們的投融資待放來協助所以像我們推動一些所謂綠色的放款綠色的金融商品其中某一部分就是要協助我們比如說企業來\n轉型跟理論講起來都很容易啊坐在學術殿堂或是在國會裡面這樣談都垮垮而談很容易啊問題是到了製造業\n到了這些中小企業他面臨的就是生存的問題耶近年轉型貸款給他要求他要升級有這麼容易嗎我記得之前有政治人物說2030年所有的燃油機車都不能用了結果引起多大的風暴你知道嗎好那我現在再問你我們就不要講到這個中小企業了中鋼就好中鋼他一年的碳權要交多少錢\n到目前這樣算起來是不是至少幾十億以上那因為中國的大量傾銷我們的鋼板就已經很難生存了在全世界就幾乎都沒有競爭力了因為中國是用國家在後面補貼的嘛他是一個不公平的貿易嘛那這時候我們自己再把自己再加上去然後跟你競爭的那個企業不用他不用去這些成本那到底要如何競爭啊\n現在要問的是一個這樣的問題當然我今天問的這個問題可能說跟這個顯學啦 跟同事說大家就是要走淨零轉型走淨零轉型 要談也可以談啊問題是你有沒有思考到另一面的問題這個速度如果太快或是說這一些的配套如果不足\n每一家的中小企業就是面臨這些員工的生存問題製造業到底 台灣到底要不要 你是要趕出去嗎還是說台灣都不要低階製造業還是要像美國一樣過去全球化讓它的製造業到全世界去然後現在才開始用大量的這個政策補貼要求製造業重返美國\n這個思考不是這麼簡單說我這個淨體轉型大家都希望環境越來越好有誰希望環境壞但是問題是要做得到啊那這一方面如果你們吹太暗的時候吹得太快我很擔心台灣社會到底受得了受不了\n我們從金管會的立場我們對剛才講金融機構跟上市櫃公司的管理上面我們現在也有體察到這一點我們採取都是用鼓勵的措施而不是用強制的這樣措施就剛剛那個講這個ESG評鑑或永續金融評鑑我們都是採用鼓勵的方式用導引畢竟剛才牽涉到比如說我們的探權、探費還有探稅的問題都不是金管會所能主政\n我知道不是你們的主政我今天因為今天要談這個問題在談這個問題我就主要要問你嘛因為你要了解你要思考的是全體而不是政治這個東西你要走在眾人前的一步可以引導眾人眾人看得到你走得太遠看不到的時候比較先知啊自古先知都是寂寞的因為跟不上啊\n我在同樣的邏輯思考方式回來請教你另外一個問題你獨立董事現在要弄心智嘛\n有提出這樣的政策嗎\n然後學界立刻就說那人才荒啊你獨立董事的人要從哪裡來啊哪裡有這麼多的獨立董事可以用啊是不是要思考這個問題\n謝謝委員那其實我們對於這個獨立董事任期就有一個上限規定是要考慮到他的獨立性的維持那再來我們有那個政績會有個獨立獨立董事人才庫上面也有協助上市櫃公司去尋找他的獨立董事的現在應該有1500位符合資格的候選人在那個資料庫上面\n吳秉叡\n有一半以上不可以連任三次以上喔對對不能連任三屆那現在是主要是我們現在根據我們的法律規定一個人可以兼任四個獨立董事所以我們有1500個人這樣我們初步的評估應該是現在是量能是夠只是說適不適合那是由他們各個公司來評估那所以這個人才顧1500多人他們就可以成立獨統俱樂部跟公司沒有關係我有這個資格你們就得來騙我不然你人才方不夠啊\n這是供給跟需求的問題啊這個是簡單的數學問題嘛所以我具備這個資格假設有一天我不當立委了我律師我就掛進人才庫那不相干不認識的這些公司就來請我當讀董是這樣的概念嗎那我對公司完全沒有股份公司的經營好壞我要如何負責\n律師哪有專長不符合公司的董事、董監事、律師、會計師都是非常符合資格的條件那我只是要跟你講說制度的推行\n有它的合理性但是要循序漸進你要抓住那個tempo啦你有的時候太急、太趕另外一點過去公司的設計就我大學的時候念的公司法回去當董監事是因為我對這間公司我有一個比較大的持股所以公司好我會跟著好公司不好我會跟著不好因為是我的財產那如果現在都大量用獨董公司沒有持股也可以都用這樣的概念來的時候那公司經營的成敗\n吳秉叡委員的質詢接著我們請賴世保委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.530 --> 00:27.432\n討 論 這 個 議 題 我 覺 得 那 個 範 圍 很 大 尤 其 是 檢 量 減 碳 中 心 這 個 碳 那 是 現 在 是 一 個 很 夯 的 這 個 話 題 可 是 你 了 不 了 解 其 實 並 不 是 大 家 都 是 朝 著 一 致 的 看 法 像 美 國 總 統 拜 登 他 當 然 非 常 重 視 這 個 議 題 民 主 黨 很 重 視 這 個 議 題 因 為 從 高 爾 開 始 就 是 一 直 在 講 這 個 全 球 暖 化 的 問 題\n\n00:29.022 --> 00:55.083\n但 是 川 普 卻 認 為 這 是 一 個 假 議 題 當 然 川 普 的 講 法 有 點 極 端 那 是 兩 種 完 全 不 同 的 思 考 的 方 式 那 我 們 現 在 台 灣 照 現 在 的 講 法 都 是 一 面 倒 都 是 朝 向 這 個 近 鄰 這 個 方 向 這 樣 子 是 對 的 嗎 有 沒 有 另 外 一 種 思 考 是 不 是 稍 微 要 平 衡 思 考 一 下 呢\n\n00:56.744 --> 01:22.961\n謝 委 員 其 實 有 關 減 碳 當 然 在 不 管 是 就 我 所 知 啦 就 學 術 或 是 在 很 多 其 實 是 有 爭 議 不 過 現 在 的 主 流 思 維 還 是 跟 我 們 現 在 所 做 的 方 向 是 一 致 的 主 流 思 維 啦 主 流 思 維 要 減 碳 然 後 現 在 碳 權 要 買 賣 有 人 就 說 這 是 一 筆 好 生 意 啊 比 爾 蓋 茲 在 美 國 買 了 非 常 多 的 農 場 他 準 備 要 大 賺 一 筆\n\n01:24.434 --> 01:49.429\n因 為 農 場 只 要 有 種 樹 只 要 種 綠 色 植 物 它 的 碳 的 買 賣 它 就 可 以 源 源 不 斷 的 收 入 也 有 這 樣 子 的 講 法 同 一 個 時 間 全 世 界 也 沒 有 一 致 的 標 準 如 果 台 灣 對 碳 權 的 要 求 這 麼 的 先 進 這 麼 的 前 衛 甚 至 要 達 到 跟 歐 洲 最 先 進 地 方 一 樣 的 標 準 它 的 優 勝 劣 敗 有 沒 有 評 估 過\n\n01:56.469 --> 02:20.722\n這 個 部 分 的 話 我 想 說 我 們 現 在 以 金 管 會 的 立 場 我 們 大 概 會 從 兩 個 方 向 走 啦 一 個 就 是 金 融 業 的 本 身 另 外 就 是 我 們 透 過 上 市 會 公 司 的 管 理 去 導 引 大 家 往 這 個 方 向 走 有 , 你 的 報 告 裡 面 是 這 樣 講 的 對 對 當 然 就 是 說 這 個 我 們 的 目 標 其 實 設 的 比 較 遠 以 後 但 是 我 們 希 望 這 既 然 是 國 家 的 政 策 我 們 就 逐 步 來 推 動 當 然 這 個 評 估 的 部 分 呢 我 們 是 按 照 我 們 自 己 金 管 會 這 樣 的 規 劃 進 程 在 進 行\n\n02:23.459 --> 02:49.156\n好 那 你 有 沒 有 聽 過 概 念 叫 綠 色 通 膨 因 為 這 些 都 是 要 成 本 的 嘛 我 舉 個 例 子 我 剛 剛 為 什 麼 講 說 全 世 界 標 準 不 一 樣 會 產 生 問 題 你 拿 這 樣 的 簡 單 標 準 要 求 發 展 中 國 家 他 有 能 力 可 以 遵 守 嗎 要 求 中 國 他 有 辦 法 可 以 遵 守 嗎 要 求 非 洲 、 中 亞 這 些 國 家 他 有 辦 法 遵 守 嗎\n\n02:51.508 --> 03:12.561\n明 顯 短 期 之 內 不 可 能 嘛 那 當 他 不 遵 守 的 時 候 台 灣 的 貿 易 處 在 一 個 先 天 上 不 利 的 地 位 因 為 我 們 被 中 國 長 期 欺 負 打 壓 所 以 我 們 很 多 的 國 際 之 間 的 貿 易 組 織 我 們 是 進 不 去 的 我 們 本 身 在 台 灣 的 製 造 業 關 稅 平 均 起 來 就 比 別 的 地 方 製 造 業 要 再 高 那 當 其 他 國 家 不 用\n\n03:17.106 --> 03:27.262\n這 些 碳 費 不 用 這 些 成 本 的 時 候 台 灣 卻 急 著 要 把 它 抓 進 來 這 某 一 個 角 度 是 不 是 在 大 戰 略 上 面 要 讓 台 灣 的 製 造 業 要 離 開 台 灣 因 為 成 本 墊 高 了 之 後\n\n03:32.591 --> 03:50.041\n有 一 部 分 啦 當 然 有 一 部 分 說 我 在 技 術 上 可 以 超 越 我 那 非 常 先 進 的 企 業 我 不 受 這 個 控 制 我 不 受 這 個 影 響 但 是 那 一 些 為 了 2 % 、 3 % 利 潤 在 苦 苦 求 生 謀 著 生 存 的 這 些 中 小 企 業 在 這 個 在 被 墊 高 之 後 他 如 何 生 存 呢\n\n03:52.060 --> 04:07.999\n我 們 在 推 動 永 續 金 融 裡 面 有 一 個 很 重 要 是 要 協 助 企 業 永 續 轉 型 我 們 透 過 我 們 的 投 融 資 待 放 來 協 助 所 以 像 我 們 推 動 一 些 所 謂 綠 色 的 放 款 綠 色 的 金 融 商 品 其 中 某 一 部 分 就 是 要 協 助 我 們 比 如 說 企 業 來\n\n04:08.860 --> 04:11.540\n轉 型 跟 理 論 講 起 來 都 很 容 易 啊 坐 在 學 術 殿 堂 或 是 在 國 會 裡 面 這 樣 談 都 垮 垮 而 談 很 容 易 啊 問 題 是 到 了 製 造 業\n\n04:37.591 --> 04:40.392\n到 了 這 些 中 小 企 業 他 面 臨 的 就 是 生 存 的 問 題 耶 近 年 轉 型 貸 款 給 他 要 求 他 要 升 級 有 這 麼 容 易 嗎 我 記 得 之 前 有 政 治 人 物 說 2 0 3 0 年 所 有 的 燃 油 機 車 都 不 能 用 了 結 果 引 起 多 大 的 風 暴 你 知 道 嗎 好 那 我 現 在 再 問 你 我 們 就 不 要 講 到 這 個 中 小 企 業 了 中 鋼 就 好 中 鋼 他 一 年 的 碳 權 要 交 多 少 錢\n\n05:06.564 --> 05:27.119\n到 目 前 這 樣 算 起 來 是 不 是 至 少 幾 十 億 以 上 那 因 為 中 國 的 大 量 傾 銷 我 們 的 鋼 板 就 已 經 很 難 生 存 了 在 全 世 界 就 幾 乎 都 沒 有 競 爭 力 了 因 為 中 國 是 用 國 家 在 後 面 補 貼 的 嘛 他 是 一 個 不 公 平 的 貿 易 嘛 那 這 時 候 我 們 自 己 再 把 自 己 再 加 上 去 然 後 跟 你 競 爭 的 那 個 企 業 不 用 他 不 用 去 這 些 成 本 那 到 底 要 如 何 競 爭 啊\n\n05:34.133 --> 05:49.149\n現 在 要 問 的 是 一 個 這 樣 的 問 題 當 然 我 今 天 問 的 這 個 問 題 可 能 說 跟 這 個 顯 學 啦 跟 同 事 說 大 家 就 是 要 走 淨 零 轉 型 走 淨 零 轉 型 要 談 也 可 以 談 啊 問 題 是 你 有 沒 有 思 考 到 另 一 面 的 問 題 這 個 速 度 如 果 太 快 或 是 說 這 一 些 的 配 套 如 果 不 足\n\n05:55.885 --> 06:14.852\n每 一 家 的 中 小 企 業 就 是 面 臨 這 些 員 工 的 生 存 問 題 製 造 業 到 底 台 灣 到 底 要 不 要 你 是 要 趕 出 去 嗎 還 是 說 台 灣 都 不 要 低 階 製 造 業 還 是 要 像 美 國 一 樣 過 去 全 球 化 讓 它 的 製 造 業 到 全 世 界 去 然 後 現 在 才 開 始 用 大 量 的 這 個 政 策 補 貼 要 求 製 造 業 重 返 美 國\n\n06:17.712 --> 06:36.457\n這 個 思 考 不 是 這 麼 簡 單 說 我 這 個 淨 體 轉 型 大 家 都 希 望 環 境 越 來 越 好 有 誰 希 望 環 境 壞 但 是 問 題 是 要 做 得 到 啊 那 這 一 方 面 如 果 你 們 吹 太 暗 的 時 候 吹 得 太 快 我 很 擔 心 台 灣 社 會 到 底 受 得 了 受 不 了\n\n06:38.518 --> 07:02.279\n我 們 從 金 管 會 的 立 場 我 們 對 剛 才 講 金 融 機 構 跟 上 市 櫃 公 司 的 管 理 上 面 我 們 現 在 也 有 體 察 到 這 一 點 我 們 採 取 都 是 用 鼓 勵 的 措 施 而 不 是 用 強 制 的 這 樣 措 施 就 剛 剛 那 個 講 這 個 E S G 評 鑑 或 永 續 金 融 評 鑑 我 們 都 是 採 用 鼓 勵 的 方 式 用 導 引 畢 竟 剛 才 牽 涉 到 比 如 說 我 們 的 探 權 、 探 費 還 有 探 稅 的 問 題 都 不 是 金 管 會 所 能 主 政\n\n07:03.021 --> 07:25.223\n我 知 道 不 是 你 們 的 主 政 我 今 天 因 為 今 天 要 談 這 個 問 題 在 談 這 個 問 題 我 就 主 要 要 問 你 嘛 因 為 你 要 了 解 你 要 思 考 的 是 全 體 而 不 是 政 治 這 個 東 西 你 要 走 在 眾 人 前 的 一 步 可 以 引 導 眾 人 眾 人 看 得 到 你 走 得 太 遠 看 不 到 的 時 候 比 較 先 知 啊 自 古 先 知 都 是 寂 寞 的 因 為 跟 不 上 啊\n\n07:26.072 --> 07:33.114\n我 在 同 樣 的 邏 輯 思 考 方 式 回 來 請 教 你 另 外 一 個 問 題 你 獨 立 董 事 現 在 要 弄 心 智 嘛\n\n07:33.956 --> 07:34.756\n有 提 出 這 樣 的 政 策 嗎\n\n08:01.530 --> 08:09.601\n然 後 學 界 立 刻 就 說 那 人 才 荒 啊 你 獨 立 董 事 的 人 要 從 哪 裡 來 啊 哪 裡 有 這 麼 多 的 獨 立 董 事 可 以 用 啊 是 不 是 要 思 考 這 個 問 題\n\n08:13.099 --> 08:35.106\n謝 謝 委 員 那 其 實 我 們 對 於 這 個 獨 立 董 事 任 期 就 有 一 個 上 限 規 定 是 要 考 慮 到 他 的 獨 立 性 的 維 持 那 再 來 我 們 有 那 個 政 績 會 有 個 獨 立 獨 立 董 事 人 才 庫 上 面 也 有 協 助 上 市 櫃 公 司 去 尋 找 他 的 獨 立 董 事 的 現 在 應 該 有 1 5 0 0 位 符 合 資 格 的 候 選 人 在 那 個 資 料 庫 上 面\n\n08:50.748 --> 09:18.599\n有 一 半 以 上 不 可 以 連 任 三 次 以 上 喔 對 對 不 能 連 任 三 屆 那 現 在 是 主 要 是 我 們 現 在 根 據 我 們 的 法 律 規 定 一 個 人 可 以 兼 任 四 個 獨 立 董 事 所 以 我 們 有 1 5 0 0 個 人 這 樣 我 們 初 步 的 評 估 應 該 是 現 在 是 量 能 是 夠 只 是 說 適 不 適 合 那 是 由 他 們 各 個 公 司 來 評 估 那 所 以 這 個 人 才 顧 1 5 0 0 多 人 他 們 就 可 以 成 立 獨 統 俱 樂 部 跟 公 司 沒 有 關 係 我 有 這 個 資 格 你 們 就 得 來 騙 我 不 然 你 人 才 方 不 夠 啊\n\n09:19.981 --> 09:41.141\n這 是 供 給 跟 需 求 的 問 題 啊 這 個 是 簡 單 的 數 學 問 題 嘛 所 以 我 具 備 這 個 資 格 假 設 有 一 天 我 不 當 立 委 了 我 律 師 我 就 掛 進 人 才 庫 那 不 相 干 不 認 識 的 這 些 公 司 就 來 請 我 當 讀 董 是 這 樣 的 概 念 嗎 那 我 對 公 司 完 全 沒 有 股 份 公 司 的 經 營 好 壞 我 要 如 何 負 責\n\n09:42.230 --> 09:47.311\n律 師 哪 有 專 長 不 符 合 公 司 的 董 事 、 董 監 事 、 律 師 、 會 計 師 都 是 非 常 符 合 資 格 的 條 件 那 我 只 是 要 跟 你 講 說 制 度 的 推 行\n\n10:04.255 --> 10:31.984\n有 它 的 合 理 性 但 是 要 循 序 漸 進 你 要 抓 住 那 個 t e m p o 啦 你 有 的 時 候 太 急 、 太 趕 另 外 一 點 過 去 公 司 的 設 計 就 我 大 學 的 時 候 念 的 公 司 法 回 去 當 董 監 事 是 因 為 我 對 這 間 公 司 我 有 一 個 比 較 大 的 持 股 所 以 公 司 好 我 會 跟 著 好 公 司 不 好 我 會 跟 著 不 好 因 為 是 我 的 財 產 那 如 果 現 在 都 大 量 用 獨 董 公 司 沒 有 持 股 也 可 以 都 用 這 樣 的 概 念 來 的 時 候 那 公 司 經 營 的 成 敗\n\n10:34.744 --> 10:36.985\n吳 秉 叡 委 員 的 質 詢 接 著 我 們 請 賴 世 保 委 員 質 詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.53,"end":27.432,"text":"討論這個議題我覺得那個範圍很大尤其是檢量減碳中心這個碳那是現在是一個很夯的這個話題可是你了不了解其實並不是大家都是朝著一致的看法像美國總統拜登他當然非常重視這個議題民主黨很重視這個議題因為從高爾開始就是一直在講這個全球暖化的問題"},{"start":29.022,"end":55.083,"text":"但是川普卻認為這是一個假議題當然川普的講法有點極端那是兩種完全不同的思考的方式那我們現在台灣照現在的講法都是一面倒都是朝向這個近鄰這個方向這樣子是對的嗎有沒有另外一種思考是不是稍微要平衡思考一下呢"},{"start":56.744,"end":82.961,"text":"謝委員其實有關減碳當然在不管是就我所知啦就學術或是在很多其實是有爭議不過現在的主流思維還是跟我們現在所做的方向是一致的主流思維啦主流思維要減碳然後現在碳權要買賣有人就說這是一筆好生意啊比爾蓋茲在美國買了非常多的農場他準備要大賺一筆"},{"start":84.434,"end":109.429,"text":"因為農場只要有種樹只要種綠色植物它的碳的買賣它就可以源源不斷的收入也有這樣子的講法同一個時間全世界也沒有一致的標準如果台灣對碳權的要求這麼的先進這麼的前衛甚至要達到跟歐洲最先進地方一樣的標準它的優勝劣敗有沒有評估過"},{"start":116.469,"end":140.722,"text":"這個部分的話我想說我們現在以金管會的立場我們大概會從兩個方向走啦一個就是金融業的本身另外就是我們透過上市會公司的管理去導引大家往這個方向走有,你的報告裡面是這樣講的對對當然就是說這個我們的目標其實設的比較遠以後但是我們希望這既然是國家的政策我們就逐步來推動當然這個評估的部分呢我們是按照我們自己金管會這樣的規劃進程在進行"},{"start":143.459,"end":169.156,"text":"好那你有沒有聽過概念叫綠色通膨因為這些都是要成本的嘛我舉個例子我剛剛為什麼講說全世界標準不一樣會產生問題你拿這樣的簡單標準要求發展中國家他有能力可以遵守嗎要求中國他有辦法可以遵守嗎要求非洲、中亞這些國家他有辦法遵守嗎"},{"start":171.508,"end":192.561,"text":"明顯短期之內不可能嘛那當他不遵守的時候台灣的貿易處在一個先天上不利的地位因為我們被中國長期欺負打壓所以我們很多的國際之間的貿易組織我們是進不去的我們本身在台灣的製造業關稅平均起來就比別的地方製造業要再高那當其他國家不用"},{"start":197.106,"end":207.262,"text":"這些碳費不用這些成本的時候台灣卻急著要把它抓進來這某一個角度是不是在大戰略上面要讓台灣的製造業要離開台灣因為成本墊高了之後"},{"start":212.591,"end":230.041,"text":"有一部分啦當然有一部分說我在技術上可以超越我那非常先進的企業我不受這個控制我不受這個影響但是那一些為了2%、3%利潤在苦苦求生謀著生存的這些中小企業在這個在被墊高之後他如何生存呢"},{"start":232.06,"end":247.999,"text":"我們在推動永續金融裡面有一個很重要是要協助企業永續轉型我們透過我們的投融資待放來協助所以像我們推動一些所謂綠色的放款綠色的金融商品其中某一部分就是要協助我們比如說企業來"},{"start":248.86,"end":251.54,"text":"轉型跟理論講起來都很容易啊坐在學術殿堂或是在國會裡面這樣談都垮垮而談很容易啊問題是到了製造業"},{"start":277.591,"end":280.392,"text":"到了這些中小企業他面臨的就是生存的問題耶近年轉型貸款給他要求他要升級有這麼容易嗎我記得之前有政治人物說2030年所有的燃油機車都不能用了結果引起多大的風暴你知道嗎好那我現在再問你我們就不要講到這個中小企業了中鋼就好中鋼他一年的碳權要交多少錢"},{"start":306.564,"end":327.119,"text":"到目前這樣算起來是不是至少幾十億以上那因為中國的大量傾銷我們的鋼板就已經很難生存了在全世界就幾乎都沒有競爭力了因為中國是用國家在後面補貼的嘛他是一個不公平的貿易嘛那這時候我們自己再把自己再加上去然後跟你競爭的那個企業不用他不用去這些成本那到底要如何競爭啊"},{"start":334.133,"end":349.149,"text":"現在要問的是一個這樣的問題當然我今天問的這個問題可能說跟這個顯學啦 跟同事說大家就是要走淨零轉型走淨零轉型 要談也可以談啊問題是你有沒有思考到另一面的問題這個速度如果太快或是說這一些的配套如果不足"},{"start":355.885,"end":374.852,"text":"每一家的中小企業就是面臨這些員工的生存問題製造業到底 台灣到底要不要 你是要趕出去嗎還是說台灣都不要低階製造業還是要像美國一樣過去全球化讓它的製造業到全世界去然後現在才開始用大量的這個政策補貼要求製造業重返美國"},{"start":377.712,"end":396.457,"text":"這個思考不是這麼簡單說我這個淨體轉型大家都希望環境越來越好有誰希望環境壞但是問題是要做得到啊那這一方面如果你們吹太暗的時候吹得太快我很擔心台灣社會到底受得了受不了"},{"start":398.518,"end":422.279,"text":"我們從金管會的立場我們對剛才講金融機構跟上市櫃公司的管理上面我們現在也有體察到這一點我們採取都是用鼓勵的措施而不是用強制的這樣措施就剛剛那個講這個ESG評鑑或永續金融評鑑我們都是採用鼓勵的方式用導引畢竟剛才牽涉到比如說我們的探權、探費還有探稅的問題都不是金管會所能主政"},{"start":423.021,"end":445.223,"text":"我知道不是你們的主政我今天因為今天要談這個問題在談這個問題我就主要要問你嘛因為你要了解你要思考的是全體而不是政治這個東西你要走在眾人前的一步可以引導眾人眾人看得到你走得太遠看不到的時候比較先知啊自古先知都是寂寞的因為跟不上啊"},{"start":446.072,"end":453.114,"text":"我在同樣的邏輯思考方式回來請教你另外一個問題你獨立董事現在要弄心智嘛"},{"start":453.956,"end":454.756,"text":"有提出這樣的政策嗎"},{"start":481.53,"end":489.601,"text":"然後學界立刻就說那人才荒啊你獨立董事的人要從哪裡來啊哪裡有這麼多的獨立董事可以用啊是不是要思考這個問題"},{"start":493.099,"end":515.106,"text":"謝謝委員那其實我們對於這個獨立董事任期就有一個上限規定是要考慮到他的獨立性的維持那再來我們有那個政績會有個獨立獨立董事人才庫上面也有協助上市櫃公司去尋找他的獨立董事的現在應該有1500位符合資格的候選人在那個資料庫上面"},{"start":515.691,"end":529.787,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":530.748,"end":558.599,"text":"有一半以上不可以連任三次以上喔對對不能連任三屆那現在是主要是我們現在根據我們的法律規定一個人可以兼任四個獨立董事所以我們有1500個人這樣我們初步的評估應該是現在是量能是夠只是說適不適合那是由他們各個公司來評估那所以這個人才顧1500多人他們就可以成立獨統俱樂部跟公司沒有關係我有這個資格你們就得來騙我不然你人才方不夠啊"},{"start":559.981,"end":581.141,"text":"這是供給跟需求的問題啊這個是簡單的數學問題嘛所以我具備這個資格假設有一天我不當立委了我律師我就掛進人才庫那不相干不認識的這些公司就來請我當讀董是這樣的概念嗎那我對公司完全沒有股份公司的經營好壞我要如何負責"},{"start":582.23,"end":587.311,"text":"律師哪有專長不符合公司的董事、董監事、律師、會計師都是非常符合資格的條件那我只是要跟你講說制度的推行"},{"start":604.255,"end":631.984,"text":"有它的合理性但是要循序漸進你要抓住那個tempo啦你有的時候太急、太趕另外一點過去公司的設計就我大學的時候念的公司法回去當董監事是因為我對這間公司我有一個比較大的持股所以公司好我會跟著好公司不好我會跟著不好因為是我的財產那如果現在都大量用獨董公司沒有持股也可以都用這樣的概念來的時候那公司經營的成敗"},{"start":634.744,"end":636.985,"text":"吳秉叡委員的質詢接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"}]}}}}