{"id":153370,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153370","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba01a12ab4312e37894622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e9137447b740a4ce868cf5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:55:32 - 10:06:58","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:55:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T10:06:58+08:00","duration":686,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時55分）謝謝主席。有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：彭主委好。我今天之所以排這個主題，剛剛賴委員已經講很清楚了，一來作為放貸標準；二來也可以讓投資人有所依據，畢竟現在投資商品越來越多，不論是ETF，或者是與綠色債券相關的可能性都有。就ETF的標準來說，剛剛你有提到一個部分，也就是還是站在鼓勵跟指引的態度。但本席想要說的是，如果只是鼓勵跟指引，若企業以消極的態度去面對的話，那麼ESG的標準是不是能夠形成公信與具體的指標，恐將令人擔憂！我看到臺灣指數公司確實有針對這些公司進行永續的評鑑，但評鑑過程當中屢屢引起一些爭議，爭議在哪裡？爭議在個別公司在評鑑上有的是優等生，有的是特優生，卻有違反社會責任或違反公司治理的情況，然而在報告書中無法看到。","我請教你一下，根據許多民間團體，像獨董協會的調查顯示，到目前為止，經營階層當中對ESG的認知仍相當缺乏，重視程度有待加強，甚至對相關問題不甚瞭解。對於這種情況我想請問主委，是不是可以比照薪酬或審計委員會，在規範上稍微強制一點，譬如成立永續發展委員會，不曉得主委看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在各個公司的審計委員會是強制要設，至於永續委員會則由各公司決定，和薪酬一樣有些有強制力，我們會持續評估如何強化公司治理，像審計委員會的設置及加重其權責，這是我們從實務上看到的。如同所委員提到，未來永續會是一個長遠要落實的政策，那麼我們會請相關單位來評估可行性。"],["郭委員國文：稍微push一下，好不好？更稍微強制一下……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個可以來評估。"],["郭委員國文：這樣效果才會出來。你想一想，所有資訊的揭露，如臺灣指數公司所評鑑的內容也是事後指標，並無法驗證其真實性。如果永續報告書這麼重要，如同財報地位的話，那麼財報還有會計師做認證，請問永續報告書誰來認證？對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們……"],["郭委員國文：簡單講，有沒有第三方的可能性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有請交易所跟櫃買做審閱，這點剛剛有跟委員報告過。我們剛剛提到在做永續報告時，一開始我們是鼓勵，所以儘量請他們先做獨立報告，且這部分我們會不斷優化。"],["郭委員國文：在審閱過程當中，假設報告書內容有虛偽不實或有隱匿的狀況，其實是違反證交法第三十六條第四項，公司公開發行公司年報應記載事項準則，所以這有民刑事問題！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我可不可以請副局長回答一下？"],["高副局長晶萍：報告委員，因為永續報告書其實是交易所的規定，所以違反的話是有與交易所相關的違約金處分。只是永續報告書有一些揭露內容現在已放到年報裡面，即股東會的年報。股東會年報如記載有虛偽不實，就會違反證交法……"],["郭委員國文：要放到年報以後才算符合法令……"],["高副局長晶萍：有重複性的揭露項目放在年報裡面，如此就會link到證交法的刑事責任……"],["郭委員國文：把它年報化就是了？所以必須強制要求其真實性，對不對？","另外一個牽扯到的就是後續的標準問題了。我舉一個例子，有關標準部分，在永續金融的評鑑當中對於水泥碳排，一年的排放強度是0.9公噸，可是就法規來說，排放的強度是0.821公噸。我請問一下，ESG要比照哪個標準？是比照法規，還是比照我們的永續評鑑？標準不一，不一致啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們是用評鑑指標……"],["郭委員國文：對，是用評鑑指標，但法規不一樣啊！現在標準不一樣，請問要怎麼處理？我不是把所有的loading都放在你身上，所以是不是可以找國發會做平臺，把環境部找來，把經濟部找來，把相關的部會找來，大家來談一談到底官方真正的標準是什麼？如果沒有標準的話，就很難指標化；你沒有指標化，那麼透明化也沒有意義，對不對？所以該從根本做起的是這個！主委，請你費心一下。","另外，我看到金管會說今年要提出金融機構防漂綠的參考指引？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["郭委員國文：主委，這部分你的基本態度是什麼？什麼時候要做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該最近就會發布原則了！應該最近、馬上就會發布原則！"],["郭委員國文：最近？最近是第二季以前嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這公文我記得我已經簽了。"],["郭委員國文：已經簽了？所以這一、兩個月就會出來了？類似的指標是不是會擴大到所有有永續報告書的這些公司，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們希望在未來只要是公開揭露的文件，能夠非常詳實地按照我們剛才提到的標準來做，不要有比較誇大的部分。"],["郭委員國文：那就等待你這個指引的內容。我還要請教主委有關公司治理，永續報告書當中的公司治理當然就是以本來的主體公司為主，但在主體公司當中有一部分的取處，也就是成立了子公司之後，好像子公司就獨立化了。子公司獨立化後只要經過一次取處就到外面了，變成外部交易，隨便它取處。如果是內部交易還有一些規範，但外部沒有！明明這原來是母公司的資產去成立的子公司，結果成立子公司以後就不管它了！如果只成立一家子公司的話還好，如果成立了一、二十家，不就是一種變相的掏空嗎？且變相地違反內部內稽、內控的治理的範圍嗎？就這部分的現象不知道主委的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，對於這案子，在一些案例發生以後，其實我們對於……"],["郭委員國文：我不是跟你談一個個案而已，我是從個案看到通案！"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們從這個可以看到現在的規定只及於母公司本身，至於實質作業上，交易所會針對子公司一起做考量。不過我們也在研議要不要修證交法，把子公司整個納進來，這點我們正在研議中。"],["郭委員國文：研議把子公司納入資產取處的範圍！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：納入取處範圍中，才不會有變相掏空的嫌疑。同樣的道理，資產取處會影響到內稽、內控，在這種情況下是不是有可能先把這些子公司納入永續報告書的範圍？簡單講，就是把ESG家族化。既然公司可以集團化，為什麼不要求ESG家族化的可能性呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在金融機構已經把所有子公司納入，但其他上市櫃公司還沒，未來永續報告……"],["郭委員國文：金融機構有，因為公股銀行就成立了ESG大聯盟，所以基本上應該複製或擴大！在複製擴大的情況底下，簡單講就是一個家族化的概念。如果有集團式的公司，那麼是不是可以用這種方式把它集團化、家族化？讓ESG不再是單純的母公司的事，而是集團化的事情？用以大帶小的方式來建構ESG的標準跟環境？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是一個目標，因為上市櫃公司所牽涉的範圍非常複雜，不像金融業比較單純，假設金融業實施，它有這個經驗，我想我們再來持續優化這整個，比如說永續報告書的質跟量，這部分我們當然可以在未來優化的過程當中考慮到這個部分。"],["郭委員國文：我想可以啦，主委，你如果從資本額開始引進，或者用持股比例的話，只要有一個客觀標準，慢慢擴展，其實這不是不無可能，主委，這個部分請你費心一下，花點時間來跟本席說明一下。","最後，本席想要請教你一件事情，剛剛有幾位委員有關心到最近大家在討論的新新併啦，或者是要不要跟中信併的部分，你剛才有提到，就個案的部分，你好像傾向不評論嘛，可是就政策上，您的態度是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：按照金控法第十八條的規定，我們本來就有一個金控整併的條文啦，這個本來在當初制度設計時就已經考慮到，任何一個金融機構或金融相關事業本來就有入場、退場的規定，我們尊重市場的機制。當然我剛才講，因為金控的規模都比較大，這還有牽涉到公平會的職權，這部分其實我們在還沒有收到任何正式的文件之前，站在主管機關的立場，我們真的不方便評論。"],["郭委員國文：這是就個案的部分，就法令上的部分，也有它的辦法，但是就您個人的部分，關於你的政策態度，我想請教你，你對金金併部分的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金金併我們已經有成功的案例了。"],["郭委員國文：對，但你的態度呢？推不推？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想應該是講對市場……"],["郭委員國文：鼓不鼓勵嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個要看個案，要看個案。"],["郭委員國文：看個案？還是看個案，你沒有政策，你只有個案？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為就等於說，我們只要對市場的競爭力，跟消費者……"],["郭委員國文：你不覺得臺灣的銀行太多嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：銀行太多，其實我們可以透過金控的整併……"],["郭委員國文：你不覺得需要整出一個亞洲級的，然後來打亞洲盃嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這當然是一個……"],["郭委員國文：或世界盃？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這當然是一個我們可以想像的目標，但是實際上，我們有很多的條件必須滿足啦。"],["郭委員國文：對啊，但是規模至少是一個基本的條件嘛，我們希望看到主委的基本政策態度啦，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，謝謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的質詢。","下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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\"start\": 75.577, \"end\": 75.697, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"缺\", \"start\": 75.697, \"end\": 75.837, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"乏\", \"start\": 75.837, \"end\": 75.857, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 94.002, \"end\": 113.499, \"text\": \"重視程度還有待加強甚至對這個相關的問題還不甚了解這種情況底下我想請問一下主委主委是不是可以比照像薪酬或審計委員會的這個部分在規範上能夠稍微強制一點譬如講成立一個永續發展委員會不需要主委的看法怎麼樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 94.002, \"end\": 94.342, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 94.342, \"end\": 94.583, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 94.583, \"end\": 95.023, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 95.023, \"end\": 95.183, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 95.183, \"end\": 95.343, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 95.343, \"end\": 96.324, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 96.324, \"end\": 96.524, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 96.524, \"end\": 98.066, \"score\": 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112.418, \"end\": 112.698, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 112.698, \"end\": 112.778, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 112.778, \"end\": 112.878, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 112.878, \"end\": 112.958, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 112.958, \"end\": 113.078, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 113.078, \"end\": 113.158, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 113.158, \"end\": 113.218, \"score\": 0.364}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 113.218, \"end\": 113.358, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 113.358, \"end\": 113.479, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 113.479, \"end\": 113.499, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}]}, {\"start\": 114.91, \"end\": 141.289, \"text\": 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\"他既然公司可以集團化了那你為什麼不要求ESG把它家族化的可能性呢我們現在是不是那個金融機構已經把所有子公司納入但其他上市櫃公司我們是不是還沒嘛對我們反正這個未來永續報告金融機構有因為我們金融機構公股銀行就成立一個ESG大聯盟啊那我是說你基本上你應該複製或者是擴大嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 510.47, \"end\": 510.63, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"既\", \"start\": 510.63, \"end\": 510.73, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 510.73, \"end\": 510.891, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 510.891, \"end\": 511.071, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 511.071, \"end\": 511.191, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 511.191, \"end\": 511.271, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 511.271, \"end\": 511.351, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 511.351, \"end\": 511.711, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 511.711, \"end\": 511.851, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 511.851, \"end\": 512.331, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 512.331, \"end\": 512.571, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 531.561, \"end\": 531.881, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 531.881, \"end\": 532.041, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 532.041, \"end\": 532.641, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 532.641, \"end\": 532.821, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 532.821, \"end\": 533.041, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 533.041, \"end\": 533.262, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 533.262, \"end\": 533.782, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 533.782, \"end\": 535.082, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"複\"}, {\"word\": \"製\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 535.082, \"end\": 535.222, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 535.222, \"end\": 535.443, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 535.443, \"end\": 535.723, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"擴\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 535.723, \"end\": 535.943, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 535.943, \"end\": 535.963, \"score\": 0.085}]}, {\"start\": 536.623, \"end\": 553.946, \"text\": \"副職擴大的情況底下簡單的講就是一個家族化的概念那你如果說有集團式的公司的話你是不是可以用這種方式把集團化把它家族化把ESG不是單純的一個母公司的事情而是集團化的事情來以大小的方式來建構這個ESG的標準跟環境\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 536.623, \"end\": 537.064, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"擴\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 537.064, \"end\": 537.204, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 537.204, \"end\": 537.284, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 537.284, \"end\": 537.565, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 537.565, \"end\": 537.685, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 537.685, \"end\": 538.105, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 538.105, \"end\": 538.346, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 538.346, \"end\": 538.466, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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{\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 679.846, \"end\": 680.026, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 680.026, \"end\": 680.166, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 680.166, \"end\": 681.027, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 681.027, \"end\": 681.267, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"宏\", \"start\": 681.267, \"end\": 681.767, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 681.767, \"end\": 681.787, \"score\": 0.045}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,981 --> 00:00:05,001\n黃 國 健 議 員\n\n2\n00:00:35,001 --> 00:00:53,784\n但 是 我 本 席 這 邊 要 對 您 說 的 是 說 你 如 果 只 是 一 個 鼓 勵 跟 指 引 那 企 業 如 果 是 一 個 消 極 的 態 度 去 面 對 的 話 恐 怕 這 個 E S G 的 這 個 標 準 是 不 是 能 夠 形 成 一 個 公 信 形 成 一 個 具 體 的 指 標 就 令 人 擔 憂 啦 所 以 我 看 到 的 是 這 樣 子\n\n3\n00:00:54,485 --> 00:01:10,455\n我 們 台 灣 指 數 公 司 確 實 有 針 對 這 些 公 司 來 進 行 一 些 永 續 的 一 個 評 鑑 但 是 評 鑑 過 程 當 中 屢 屢 引 起 一 些 爭 議 爭 議 在 哪 裡 ? 爭 議 在 這 個 別 的 公 司 在 評 鑑 上 有 的 是 優 等 生 有 的 是 特 優 生 但 是 呢 卻 有 違 反 這 個 社 會 責 任\n\n4\n00:01:11,656 --> 00:01:15,857\nP u g e t 也 有 許 多 的 民 間 團 體 讀 懂 的 這 個 協 會 調 查 到 目 前 為 止 經 營 階 層 當 中 對 這 個 E S G 的 認 知 還 相 當 的 缺 乏\n\n5\n00:01:34,002 --> 00:01:53,499\n重 視 程 度 還 有 待 加 強 甚 至 對 這 個 相 關 的 問 題 還 不 甚 了 解 這 種 情 況 底 下 我 想 請 問 一 下 主 委 主 委 是 不 是 可 以 比 照 像 薪 酬 或 審 計 委 員 會 的 這 個 部 分 在 規 範 上 能 夠 稍 微 強 制 一 點 譬 如 講 成 立 一 個 永 續 發 展 委 員 會 不 需 要 主 委 的 看 法 怎 麼 樣\n\n6\n00:01:54,910 --> 00:02:21,289\n現 在 我 想 各 個 公 司 呢 比 如 說 我 們 省 紀 委 員 會 當 然 是 強 制 要 設 還 有 現 在 永 續 委 員 會 這 是 各 個 公 司 可 以 來 決 定 就 像 我 們 薪 酬 一 樣 那 我 們 有 些 有 強 制 力 我 們 會 持 續 的 評 估 像 比 如 說 如 何 強 化 公 司 治 理 像 比 如 說 省 紀 委 員 會 設 置 還 有 他 的 權 責 把 它 加 重 就 是 我 們 從 實 務 上 看 到 的 比 如 說 假 設 委 員 有 提 到 未 來 永 續 會 是 一 個 長 遠 要 落 實 的 政 策 的 話 我 們 會 請 我 們 相 關 的 單 位 來 評 估 這 樣 的\n\n7\n00:02:24,031 --> 00:02:45,582\n我 稍 微 p u s h 一 下 好 不 好 稍 微 強 制 一 下 這 個 效 果 才 會 出 來 嘛 你 想 一 想 喔 像 我 們 所 有 這 個 資 訊 的 揭 露 你 包 括 這 個 所 謂 的 平 淺 的 台 灣 指 數 公 司 所 平 淺 的 內 容 當 中 它 也 是 事 後 指 標 它 也 沒 有 辦 法 去 驗 證 它 的 真 實 性 如 果 說 呢 這 個 永 續 報 告 書 這 麼 重 要 如 同 是 財 報 的 這 個 地 位 的 話 財 報 還 有 會 計 師 在 做 認 證 那 永 續 報 告 書 誰 來 認 證 對 不 對\n\n8\n00:02:54,554 --> 00:03:01,819\n現 在 我 們 其 實 有 請 交 易 所 跟 櫃 買 做 審 閱 剛 剛 有 跟 委 員 報 告 過 當 然 就 是 說 現 在 我 們 剛 剛 提 到 就 是 我 們 在 做 這 個 永 續 報 告 的 時 候 一 開 始 大 家 都 是 我 們 是 鼓 勵 所 以 我 們 盡 量 請 他 們 先 做 獨 立 的 報 告 這 個 部 分 我 們 當 然 是 會 不 斷 的 優 化\n\n9\n00:03:17,449 --> 00:03:19,050\n我 可 不 可 以 請 副 局 長 回 答 一 下\n\n10\n00:03:41,388 --> 00:04:09,850\n是 報 告 委 員 因 為 那 個 永 續 報 告 書 其 實 是 交 易 所 這 邊 的 規 定 所 以 違 反 是 違 反 交 易 所 那 邊 有 相 關 交 易 所 的 違 約 金 的 處 分 只 是 說 永 續 報 告 書 有 一 些 介 入 內 容 我 們 現 在 也 把 它 放 到 年 報 裡 面 股 東 會 的 年 報 那 股 東 會 年 報 如 果 記 載 有 虛 偽 不 實 那 就 會 違 反 我 們 政 交 法 那 就 是 要 放 到 年 報 以 後 才 算 符 合 這 個 法 令 就 是 我 們 有 重 複 性 的 介 入 項 目 放 在 年 報 裡 面 那 就 會 l i n k 到 政 交 法\n\n11\n00:04:10,871 --> 00:04:10,911\n法 規 上 ﹖\n\n12\n00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:37,160\n市 場 上 有 跟 業 界 討 論 所 以 是 用 這 個\n\n13\n00:05:04,410 --> 00:05:30,685\n現 在 不 一 致 了 ? 對 , 現 在 的 話 我 們 是 用 剛 剛 那 個 評 鑑 指 標 來 對 , 是 用 評 鑑 指 標 嘛 , 但 是 法 規 不 一 樣 嘛 那 現 在 這 個 標 準 不 一 樣 , 那 要 怎 麼 去 確 定 , 怎 樣 去 處 理 我 覺 得 我 不 是 把 所 有 的 這 個 l o a d i n g 都 放 在 你 身 上 你 是 不 是 可 以 找 國 發 會 做 一 個 平 台 把 環 境 部 找 來 , 把 經 濟 部 找 來 , 相 關 的 部 會 找 來 我 們 來 談 一 談 , 到 底 官 方 的 真 正 的 標 準 是 什 麼 你 如 果 沒 有 一 個 標 準 的 話\n\n14\n00:05:31,886 --> 00:05:33,987\n我 們 現 在 是 不 是 上 次 應 該 最 近 就 會 發 布 那 個 原 則 了 對\n\n15\n00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:01,560\n指 標 會 擴 大 所 有 到 永 續 報 告 書 的 公 司 嗎 ?\n\n16\n00:06:23,919 --> 00:06:24,459\n主 委 主 席\n\n17\n00:06:41,713 --> 00:07:09,754\n就 是 有 關 於 這 個 公 司 治 理 的 部 分 永 續 報 告 書 當 中 的 公 司 治 理 當 然 就 是 以 你 本 來 的 這 個 主 體 公 司 為 主 但 是 你 的 主 體 公 司 當 中 呢 你 有 一 部 分 的 這 個 取 儲 啊 成 立 了 子 公 司 之 後 好 像 子 公 司 就 獨 立 化 了 可 是 子 公 司 獨 立 化 他 只 要 經 過 一 次 取 儲 他 就 到 外 面 就 變 成 一 個 那 個 整 個 外 部 的 交 易 隨 便 他 取 儲 啦 主 委\n\n18\n00:07:10,905 --> 00:07:35,675\n你 如 果 內 部 交 你 還 有 一 些 規 範 喔 那 外 部 沒 有 喔 可 是 明 明 這 是 原 來 那 個 母 公 司 的 一 個 資 產 那 你 成 立 子 公 司 成 立 子 公 司 以 後 你 就 不 管 他 了 可 是 他 成 立 子 公 司 如 果 成 立 一 家 還 好 他 如 果 成 立 了 一 二 十 家 那 不 是 變 相 的 一 種 掏 空 嗎 變 相 的 違 反 你 的 內 部 的 內 積 內 空 的 一 個 治 理 的 範 圍 嗎 對 這 部 分 的 現 象 我 不 需 要 主 委 你 的 看 法 怎 麼 樣\n\n19\n00:07:36,295 --> 00:08:01,611\n報 告 委 員 , 我 想 對 於 這 個 案 子 , 我 們 有 一 些 案 例 發 生 以 後 呢 , 其 實 我 們 對 於 我 不 是 跟 你 談 一 個 個 案 而 已 喔 , 我 是 從 個 案 看 到 通 案 喔 就 是 因 為 我 們 從 這 個 看 到 的 就 是 說 , 我 們 現 在 的 規 定 只 給 予 母 公 司 本 身 但 我 們 現 在 實 質 在 作 業 上 , 交 易 所 這 邊 會 針 對 這 個 子 公 司 一 起 來 做 一 個 考 量 只 是 說 , 我 們 現 在 也 在 研 議 說 要 不 要 修 我 們 的 政 交 法 , 把 子 公 司 整 個 納 進 來 , 我 們 正 在 研 議 中\n\n20\n00:08:03,052 --> 00:08:29,090\n研 議 把 子 公 司 納 入 整 個 資 產 取 儲 的 一 個 範 圍 納 入 這 個 取 儲 範 圍 當 中 才 不 會 有 變 相 掏 空 的 一 個 嫌 疑 嘛 那 同 樣 的 道 理 啊 你 在 資 產 取 儲 的 部 分 會 影 響 到 內 積 內 空 的 情 況 底 下 那 是 不 是 有 可 能 先 行 把 這 些 子 公 司 的 部 分 呢 把 它 納 入 啊 這 一 個 永 續 報 告 書 的 範 圍 也 就 是 簡 單 的 講 呢 就 是 把 這 個 E S G 的 部 分 把 它 家 族 化\n\n21\n00:08:30,470 --> 00:08:55,963\n他 既 然 公 司 可 以 集 團 化 了 那 你 為 什 麼 不 要 求 E S G 把 它 家 族 化 的 可 能 性 呢 我 們 現 在 是 不 是 那 個 金 融 機 構 已 經 把 所 有 子 公 司 納 入 但 其 他 上 市 櫃 公 司 我 們 是 不 是 還 沒 嘛 對 我 們 反 正 這 個 未 來 永 續 報 告 金 融 機 構 有 因 為 我 們 金 融 機 構 公 股 銀 行 就 成 立 一 個 E S G 大 聯 盟 啊 那 我 是 說 你 基 本 上 你 應 該 複 製 或 者 是 擴 大 嘛\n\n22\n00:08:56,623 --> 00:09:13,946\n副 職 擴 大 的 情 況 底 下 簡 單 的 講 就 是 一 個 家 族 化 的 概 念 那 你 如 果 說 有 集 團 式 的 公 司 的 話 你 是 不 是 可 以 用 這 種 方 式 把 集 團 化 把 它 家 族 化 把 E S G 不 是 單 純 的 一 個 母 公 司 的 事 情 而 是 集 團 化 的 事 情 來 以 大 小 的 方 式 來 建 構 這 個 E S G 的 標 準 跟 環 境\n\n23\n00:09:15,651 --> 00:09:30,980\n這 是 一 個 目 標 因 為 我 們 商 會 公 司 其 實 牽 涉 到 範 圍 非 常 複 雜 不 像 金 融 業 比 較 單 純 假 設 金 融 業 實 施 他 有 這 個 經 驗 我 想 我 們 在 持 續 優 化 這 整 個 比 如 說 永 續 報 告 書 的 值 跟 量 我 們 這 部 分 我 們 當 然 可 以 來\n\n24\n00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,381\n主 委 請 你 這 個 部 分 的 會 心 一 下 花 點 時 間 來 跟 本 席 說 明 一 下 最 後 本 席 想 請 教 你 一 件 事 情 剛 剛 有 幾 位 委 員 有 關 心 到 最 近 大 家 討 論 的 是 個\n\n25\n00:09:54,182 --> 00:10:04,077\n新 興 病 或 中 性 病 的 部 分 你 剛 才 提 到 就 個 案 的 部 分 你 好 像 傾 向 不 評 論 可 是 就 政 策 上 您 的 態 度 是 怎 麼 樣\n\n26\n00:10:05,522 --> 00:10:27,541\n按 照 我 們 金 控 法 第 1 8 條 我 們 本 來 就 有 一 個 金 控 整 併 的 條 文 這 個 本 來 就 當 初 在 制 度 設 計 就 已 經 考 慮 到 任 何 一 個 金 融 機 構 或 金 融 相 關 事 業 本 來 就 有 入 場 退 場 的 規 定 那 我 們 尊 重 市 場 的 機 制 當 然 我 跟 你 講 因 為 金 控 的 規 模 都 比 較 大 這 個 還 有 現 在 公 平 會 的 職 權 這 部 分 其 實 我 們 在 還 沒 有 收 到 任 何 正 式 的 文 件 之 前 我 們 真 的\n\n27\n00:10:28,341 --> 00:10:28,942\n主 管 金 融 事 務 部 長\n\n28\n00:10:40,745 --> 00:10:47,471\n推 不 推 ? 鼓 不 鼓 勵 嘛 ? 還 是 看 個 案 ? 你 沒 有 政 策 , 你 只 有 個 案 ? 你 不 覺 得 台 灣 的 銀 行 太 多 嗎 ? 你 不 覺 得 需 要 整 州 一 個 亞 洲 級 的 , 然 後 來 打 亞 洲 盃 嗎 ?\n\n29\n00:11:02,552 --> 00:11:21,787\n這 當 然 是 一 個 我 們 可 以 想 像 的 目 標 但 是 其 實 上 我 們 有 很 多 的 條 件 必 須 滿 足 啦 對 啊 但 是 規 模 至 少 是 一 個 基 本 的 條 件 嘛 我 很 希 望 看 到 主 委 的 基 本 的 政 策 態 度 啦 謝 謝 主 委 謝 謝 委 員 的 指 教 謝 謝 謝 謝 郭 國 文 的 質 詢 下 一 位 請 王 宏 偉 委 員 質 詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4981\t5001\t黃國健議員\n35001\t53784\t但是我本席這邊要對您說的是說你如果只是一個鼓勵跟指引那企業如果是一個消極的態度去面對的話恐怕這個ESG的這個標準是不是能夠形成一個公信形成一個具體的指標就令人擔憂啦所以我看到的是這樣子\n54485\t70455\t我們台灣指數公司確實有針對這些公司來進行一些永續的一個評鑑但是評鑑過程當中屢屢引起一些爭議爭議在哪裡?爭議在這個別的公司在評鑑上有的是優等生有的是特優生但是呢卻有違反這個社會責任\n71656\t75857\tPuget也有許多的民間團體讀懂的這個協會調查到目前為止經營階層當中對這個ESG的認知還相當的缺乏\n94002\t113499\t重視程度還有待加強甚至對這個相關的問題還不甚了解這種情況底下我想請問一下主委主委是不是可以比照像薪酬或審計委員會的這個部分在規範上能夠稍微強制一點譬如講成立一個永續發展委員會不需要主委的看法怎麼樣\n114910\t141289\t現在我想各個公司呢比如說我們省紀委員會當然是強制要設還有現在永續委員會這是各個公司可以來決定就像我們薪酬一樣那我們有些有強制力我們會持續的評估像比如說如何強化公司治理像比如說省紀委員會設置還有他的權責把它加重就是我們從實務上看到的比如說假設委員有提到未來永續會是一個長遠要落實的政策的話我們會請我們相關的單位來評估這樣的\n144031\t165582\t我稍微push一下好不好稍微強制一下這個效果才會出來嘛你想一想喔像我們所有這個資訊的揭露你包括這個所謂的平淺的台灣指數公司所平淺的內容當中它也是事後指標它也沒有辦法去驗證它的真實性如果說呢這個永續報告書這麼重要如同是財報的這個地位的話財報還有會計師在做認證那永續報告書誰來認證對不對\n174554\t181819\t現在我們其實有請交易所跟櫃買做審閱剛剛有跟委員報告過當然就是說現在我們剛剛提到就是我們在做這個永續報告的時候一開始大家都是我們是鼓勵所以我們盡量請他們先做獨立的報告這個部分我們當然是會不斷的優化\n197449\t199050\t我可不可以請副局長回答一下\n221388\t249850\t是報告委員因為那個永續報告書其實是交易所這邊的規定所以違反是違反交易所那邊有相關交易所的違約金的處分只是說永續報告書有一些介入內容我們現在也把它放到年報裡面股東會的年報那股東會年報如果記載有虛偽不實那就會違反我們政交法那就是要放到年報以後才算符合這個法令就是我們有重複性的介入項目放在年報裡面那就會link到政交法\n250871\t250911\t法規上﹖\n276920\t277160\t市場上有跟業界討論所以是用這個\n304410\t330685\t現在不一致了?對,現在的話我們是用剛剛那個評鑑指標來對,是用評鑑指標嘛,但是法規不一樣嘛那現在這個標準不一樣,那要怎麼去確定,怎樣去處理我覺得我不是把所有的這個loading都放在你身上你是不是可以找國發會做一個平台把環境部找來,把經濟部找來,相關的部會找來我們來談一談,到底官方的真正的標準是什麼你如果沒有一個標準的話\n331886\t333987\t我們現在是不是上次應該最近就會發布那個原則了對\n360720\t361560\t指標會擴大所有到永續報告書的公司嗎?\n383919\t384459\t主委主席\n401713\t429754\t就是有關於這個公司治理的部分永續報告書當中的公司治理當然就是以你本來的這個主體公司為主但是你的主體公司當中呢你有一部分的這個取儲啊成立了子公司之後好像子公司就獨立化了可是子公司獨立化他只要經過一次取儲他就到外面就變成一個那個整個外部的交易隨便他取儲啦主委\n430905\t455675\t你如果內部交你還有一些規範喔那外部沒有喔可是明明這是原來那個母公司的一個資產那你成立子公司成立子公司以後你就不管他了可是他成立子公司如果成立一家還好他如果成立了一二十家那不是變相的一種掏空嗎變相的違反你的內部的內積內空的一個治理的範圍嗎對這部分的現象我不需要主委你的看法怎麼樣\n456295\t481611\t報告委員,我想對於這個案子,我們有一些案例發生以後呢,其實我們對於我不是跟你談一個個案而已喔,我是從個案看到通案喔就是因為我們從這個看到的就是說,我們現在的規定只給予母公司本身但我們現在實質在作業上,交易所這邊會針對這個子公司一起來做一個考量只是說,我們現在也在研議說要不要修我們的政交法,把子公司整個納進來,我們正在研議中\n483052\t509090\t研議把子公司納入整個資產取儲的一個範圍納入這個取儲範圍當中才不會有變相掏空的一個嫌疑嘛那同樣的道理啊你在資產取儲的部分會影響到內積內空的情況底下那是不是有可能先行把這些子公司的部分呢把它納入啊這一個永續報告書的範圍也就是簡單的講呢就是把這個ESG的部分把它家族化\n510470\t535963\t他既然公司可以集團化了那你為什麼不要求ESG把它家族化的可能性呢我們現在是不是那個金融機構已經把所有子公司納入但其他上市櫃公司我們是不是還沒嘛對我們反正這個未來永續報告金融機構有因為我們金融機構公股銀行就成立一個ESG大聯盟啊那我是說你基本上你應該複製或者是擴大嘛\n536623\t553946\t副職擴大的情況底下簡單的講就是一個家族化的概念那你如果說有集團式的公司的話你是不是可以用這種方式把集團化把它家族化把ESG不是單純的一個母公司的事情而是集團化的事情來以大小的方式來建構這個ESG的標準跟環境\n555651\t570980\t這是一個目標因為我們商會公司其實牽涉到範圍非常複雜不像金融業比較單純假設金融業實施他有這個經驗我想我們在持續優化這整個比如說永續報告書的值跟量我們這部分我們當然可以來\n572040\t575381\t主委請你這個部分的會心一下花點時間來跟本席說明一下最後本席想請教你一件事情剛剛有幾位委員有關心到最近大家討論的是個\n594182\t604077\t新興病或中性病的部分你剛才提到就個案的部分你好像傾向不評論可是就政策上您的態度是怎麼樣\n605522\t627541\t按照我們金控法第18條我們本來就有一個金控整併的條文這個本來就當初在制度設計就已經考慮到任何一個金融機構或金融相關事業本來就有入場退場的規定那我們尊重市場的機制當然我跟你講因為金控的規模都比較大這個還有現在公平會的職權這部分其實我們在還沒有收到任何正式的文件之前我們真的\n628341\t628942\t主管金融事務部長\n640745\t647471\t推不推?鼓不鼓勵嘛?還是看個案?你沒有政策,你只有個案?你不覺得台灣的銀行太多嗎?你不覺得需要整州一個亞洲級的,然後來打亞洲盃嗎?\n662552\t681787\t這當然是一個我們可以想像的目標但是其實上我們有很多的條件必須滿足啦對啊但是規模至少是一個基本的條件嘛我很希望看到主委的基本的政策態度啦謝謝主委謝謝委員的指教謝謝謝謝郭國文的質詢下一位請王宏偉委員質詢\n","txt":"黃國健議員\n但是我本席這邊要對您說的是說你如果只是一個鼓勵跟指引那企業如果是一個消極的態度去面對的話恐怕這個ESG的這個標準是不是能夠形成一個公信形成一個具體的指標就令人擔憂啦所以我看到的是這樣子\n我們台灣指數公司確實有針對這些公司來進行一些永續的一個評鑑但是評鑑過程當中屢屢引起一些爭議爭議在哪裡?爭議在這個別的公司在評鑑上有的是優等生有的是特優生但是呢卻有違反這個社會責任\nPuget也有許多的民間團體讀懂的這個協會調查到目前為止經營階層當中對這個ESG的認知還相當的缺乏\n重視程度還有待加強甚至對這個相關的問題還不甚了解這種情況底下我想請問一下主委主委是不是可以比照像薪酬或審計委員會的這個部分在規範上能夠稍微強制一點譬如講成立一個永續發展委員會不需要主委的看法怎麼樣\n現在我想各個公司呢比如說我們省紀委員會當然是強制要設還有現在永續委員會這是各個公司可以來決定就像我們薪酬一樣那我們有些有強制力我們會持續的評估像比如說如何強化公司治理像比如說省紀委員會設置還有他的權責把它加重就是我們從實務上看到的比如說假設委員有提到未來永續會是一個長遠要落實的政策的話我們會請我們相關的單位來評估這樣的\n我稍微push一下好不好稍微強制一下這個效果才會出來嘛你想一想喔像我們所有這個資訊的揭露你包括這個所謂的平淺的台灣指數公司所平淺的內容當中它也是事後指標它也沒有辦法去驗證它的真實性如果說呢這個永續報告書這麼重要如同是財報的這個地位的話財報還有會計師在做認證那永續報告書誰來認證對不對\n現在我們其實有請交易所跟櫃買做審閱剛剛有跟委員報告過當然就是說現在我們剛剛提到就是我們在做這個永續報告的時候一開始大家都是我們是鼓勵所以我們盡量請他們先做獨立的報告這個部分我們當然是會不斷的優化\n我可不可以請副局長回答一下\n是報告委員因為那個永續報告書其實是交易所這邊的規定所以違反是違反交易所那邊有相關交易所的違約金的處分只是說永續報告書有一些介入內容我們現在也把它放到年報裡面股東會的年報那股東會年報如果記載有虛偽不實那就會違反我們政交法那就是要放到年報以後才算符合這個法令就是我們有重複性的介入項目放在年報裡面那就會link到政交法\n法規上﹖\n市場上有跟業界討論所以是用這個\n現在不一致了?對,現在的話我們是用剛剛那個評鑑指標來對,是用評鑑指標嘛,但是法規不一樣嘛那現在這個標準不一樣,那要怎麼去確定,怎樣去處理我覺得我不是把所有的這個loading都放在你身上你是不是可以找國發會做一個平台把環境部找來,把經濟部找來,相關的部會找來我們來談一談,到底官方的真正的標準是什麼你如果沒有一個標準的話\n我們現在是不是上次應該最近就會發布那個原則了對\n指標會擴大所有到永續報告書的公司嗎?\n主委主席\n就是有關於這個公司治理的部分永續報告書當中的公司治理當然就是以你本來的這個主體公司為主但是你的主體公司當中呢你有一部分的這個取儲啊成立了子公司之後好像子公司就獨立化了可是子公司獨立化他只要經過一次取儲他就到外面就變成一個那個整個外部的交易隨便他取儲啦主委\n你如果內部交你還有一些規範喔那外部沒有喔可是明明這是原來那個母公司的一個資產那你成立子公司成立子公司以後你就不管他了可是他成立子公司如果成立一家還好他如果成立了一二十家那不是變相的一種掏空嗎變相的違反你的內部的內積內空的一個治理的範圍嗎對這部分的現象我不需要主委你的看法怎麼樣\n報告委員,我想對於這個案子,我們有一些案例發生以後呢,其實我們對於我不是跟你談一個個案而已喔,我是從個案看到通案喔就是因為我們從這個看到的就是說,我們現在的規定只給予母公司本身但我們現在實質在作業上,交易所這邊會針對這個子公司一起來做一個考量只是說,我們現在也在研議說要不要修我們的政交法,把子公司整個納進來,我們正在研議中\n研議把子公司納入整個資產取儲的一個範圍納入這個取儲範圍當中才不會有變相掏空的一個嫌疑嘛那同樣的道理啊你在資產取儲的部分會影響到內積內空的情況底下那是不是有可能先行把這些子公司的部分呢把它納入啊這一個永續報告書的範圍也就是簡單的講呢就是把這個ESG的部分把它家族化\n他既然公司可以集團化了那你為什麼不要求ESG把它家族化的可能性呢我們現在是不是那個金融機構已經把所有子公司納入但其他上市櫃公司我們是不是還沒嘛對我們反正這個未來永續報告金融機構有因為我們金融機構公股銀行就成立一個ESG大聯盟啊那我是說你基本上你應該複製或者是擴大嘛\n副職擴大的情況底下簡單的講就是一個家族化的概念那你如果說有集團式的公司的話你是不是可以用這種方式把集團化把它家族化把ESG不是單純的一個母公司的事情而是集團化的事情來以大小的方式來建構這個ESG的標準跟環境\n這是一個目標因為我們商會公司其實牽涉到範圍非常複雜不像金融業比較單純假設金融業實施他有這個經驗我想我們在持續優化這整個比如說永續報告書的值跟量我們這部分我們當然可以來\n主委請你這個部分的會心一下花點時間來跟本席說明一下最後本席想請教你一件事情剛剛有幾位委員有關心到最近大家討論的是個\n新興病或中性病的部分你剛才提到就個案的部分你好像傾向不評論可是就政策上您的態度是怎麼樣\n按照我們金控法第18條我們本來就有一個金控整併的條文這個本來就當初在制度設計就已經考慮到任何一個金融機構或金融相關事業本來就有入場退場的規定那我們尊重市場的機制當然我跟你講因為金控的規模都比較大這個還有現在公平會的職權這部分其實我們在還沒有收到任何正式的文件之前我們真的\n主管金融事務部長\n推不推?鼓不鼓勵嘛?還是看個案?你沒有政策,你只有個案?你不覺得台灣的銀行太多嗎?你不覺得需要整州一個亞洲級的,然後來打亞洲盃嗎?\n這當然是一個我們可以想像的目標但是其實上我們有很多的條件必須滿足啦對啊但是規模至少是一個基本的條件嘛我很希望看到主委的基本的政策態度啦謝謝主委謝謝委員的指教謝謝謝謝郭國文的質詢下一位請王宏偉委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.981 --> 00:05.001\n黃 國 健 議 員\n\n00:35.001 --> 00:53.784\n但 是 我 本 席 這 邊 要 對 您 說 的 是 說 你 如 果 只 是 一 個 鼓 勵 跟 指 引 那 企 業 如 果 是 一 個 消 極 的 態 度 去 面 對 的 話 恐 怕 這 個 E S G 的 這 個 標 準 是 不 是 能 夠 形 成 一 個 公 信 形 成 一 個 具 體 的 指 標 就 令 人 擔 憂 啦 所 以 我 看 到 的 是 這 樣 子\n\n00:54.485 --> 01:10.455\n我 們 台 灣 指 數 公 司 確 實 有 針 對 這 些 公 司 來 進 行 一 些 永 續 的 一 個 評 鑑 但 是 評 鑑 過 程 當 中 屢 屢 引 起 一 些 爭 議 爭 議 在 哪 裡 ? 爭 議 在 這 個 別 的 公 司 在 評 鑑 上 有 的 是 優 等 生 有 的 是 特 優 生 但 是 呢 卻 有 違 反 這 個 社 會 責 任\n\n01:11.656 --> 01:15.857\nP u g e t 也 有 許 多 的 民 間 團 體 讀 懂 的 這 個 協 會 調 查 到 目 前 為 止 經 營 階 層 當 中 對 這 個 E S G 的 認 知 還 相 當 的 缺 乏\n\n01:34.002 --> 01:53.499\n重 視 程 度 還 有 待 加 強 甚 至 對 這 個 相 關 的 問 題 還 不 甚 了 解 這 種 情 況 底 下 我 想 請 問 一 下 主 委 主 委 是 不 是 可 以 比 照 像 薪 酬 或 審 計 委 員 會 的 這 個 部 分 在 規 範 上 能 夠 稍 微 強 制 一 點 譬 如 講 成 立 一 個 永 續 發 展 委 員 會 不 需 要 主 委 的 看 法 怎 麼 樣\n\n01:54.910 --> 02:21.289\n現 在 我 想 各 個 公 司 呢 比 如 說 我 們 省 紀 委 員 會 當 然 是 強 制 要 設 還 有 現 在 永 續 委 員 會 這 是 各 個 公 司 可 以 來 決 定 就 像 我 們 薪 酬 一 樣 那 我 們 有 些 有 強 制 力 我 們 會 持 續 的 評 估 像 比 如 說 如 何 強 化 公 司 治 理 像 比 如 說 省 紀 委 員 會 設 置 還 有 他 的 權 責 把 它 加 重 就 是 我 們 從 實 務 上 看 到 的 比 如 說 假 設 委 員 有 提 到 未 來 永 續 會 是 一 個 長 遠 要 落 實 的 政 策 的 話 我 們 會 請 我 們 相 關 的 單 位 來 評 估 這 樣 的\n\n02:24.031 --> 02:45.582\n我 稍 微 p u s h 一 下 好 不 好 稍 微 強 制 一 下 這 個 效 果 才 會 出 來 嘛 你 想 一 想 喔 像 我 們 所 有 這 個 資 訊 的 揭 露 你 包 括 這 個 所 謂 的 平 淺 的 台 灣 指 數 公 司 所 平 淺 的 內 容 當 中 它 也 是 事 後 指 標 它 也 沒 有 辦 法 去 驗 證 它 的 真 實 性 如 果 說 呢 這 個 永 續 報 告 書 這 麼 重 要 如 同 是 財 報 的 這 個 地 位 的 話 財 報 還 有 會 計 師 在 做 認 證 那 永 續 報 告 書 誰 來 認 證 對 不 對\n\n02:54.554 --> 03:01.819\n現 在 我 們 其 實 有 請 交 易 所 跟 櫃 買 做 審 閱 剛 剛 有 跟 委 員 報 告 過 當 然 就 是 說 現 在 我 們 剛 剛 提 到 就 是 我 們 在 做 這 個 永 續 報 告 的 時 候 一 開 始 大 家 都 是 我 們 是 鼓 勵 所 以 我 們 盡 量 請 他 們 先 做 獨 立 的 報 告 這 個 部 分 我 們 當 然 是 會 不 斷 的 優 化\n\n03:17.449 --> 03:19.050\n我 可 不 可 以 請 副 局 長 回 答 一 下\n\n03:41.388 --> 04:09.850\n是 報 告 委 員 因 為 那 個 永 續 報 告 書 其 實 是 交 易 所 這 邊 的 規 定 所 以 違 反 是 違 反 交 易 所 那 邊 有 相 關 交 易 所 的 違 約 金 的 處 分 只 是 說 永 續 報 告 書 有 一 些 介 入 內 容 我 們 現 在 也 把 它 放 到 年 報 裡 面 股 東 會 的 年 報 那 股 東 會 年 報 如 果 記 載 有 虛 偽 不 實 那 就 會 違 反 我 們 政 交 法 那 就 是 要 放 到 年 報 以 後 才 算 符 合 這 個 法 令 就 是 我 們 有 重 複 性 的 介 入 項 目 放 在 年 報 裡 面 那 就 會 l i n k 到 政 交 法\n\n04:10.871 --> 04:10.911\n法 規 上 ﹖\n\n04:36.920 --> 04:37.160\n市 場 上 有 跟 業 界 討 論 所 以 是 用 這 個\n\n05:04.410 --> 05:30.685\n現 在 不 一 致 了 ? 對 , 現 在 的 話 我 們 是 用 剛 剛 那 個 評 鑑 指 標 來 對 , 是 用 評 鑑 指 標 嘛 , 但 是 法 規 不 一 樣 嘛 那 現 在 這 個 標 準 不 一 樣 , 那 要 怎 麼 去 確 定 , 怎 樣 去 處 理 我 覺 得 我 不 是 把 所 有 的 這 個 l o a d i n g 都 放 在 你 身 上 你 是 不 是 可 以 找 國 發 會 做 一 個 平 台 把 環 境 部 找 來 , 把 經 濟 部 找 來 , 相 關 的 部 會 找 來 我 們 來 談 一 談 , 到 底 官 方 的 真 正 的 標 準 是 什 麼 你 如 果 沒 有 一 個 標 準 的 話\n\n05:31.886 --> 05:33.987\n我 們 現 在 是 不 是 上 次 應 該 最 近 就 會 發 布 那 個 原 則 了 對\n\n06:00.720 --> 06:01.560\n指 標 會 擴 大 所 有 到 永 續 報 告 書 的 公 司 嗎 ?\n\n06:23.919 --> 06:24.459\n主 委 主 席\n\n06:41.713 --> 07:09.754\n就 是 有 關 於 這 個 公 司 治 理 的 部 分 永 續 報 告 書 當 中 的 公 司 治 理 當 然 就 是 以 你 本 來 的 這 個 主 體 公 司 為 主 但 是 你 的 主 體 公 司 當 中 呢 你 有 一 部 分 的 這 個 取 儲 啊 成 立 了 子 公 司 之 後 好 像 子 公 司 就 獨 立 化 了 可 是 子 公 司 獨 立 化 他 只 要 經 過 一 次 取 儲 他 就 到 外 面 就 變 成 一 個 那 個 整 個 外 部 的 交 易 隨 便 他 取 儲 啦 主 委\n\n07:10.905 --> 07:35.675\n你 如 果 內 部 交 你 還 有 一 些 規 範 喔 那 外 部 沒 有 喔 可 是 明 明 這 是 原 來 那 個 母 公 司 的 一 個 資 產 那 你 成 立 子 公 司 成 立 子 公 司 以 後 你 就 不 管 他 了 可 是 他 成 立 子 公 司 如 果 成 立 一 家 還 好 他 如 果 成 立 了 一 二 十 家 那 不 是 變 相 的 一 種 掏 空 嗎 變 相 的 違 反 你 的 內 部 的 內 積 內 空 的 一 個 治 理 的 範 圍 嗎 對 這 部 分 的 現 象 我 不 需 要 主 委 你 的 看 法 怎 麼 樣\n\n07:36.295 --> 08:01.611\n報 告 委 員 , 我 想 對 於 這 個 案 子 , 我 們 有 一 些 案 例 發 生 以 後 呢 , 其 實 我 們 對 於 我 不 是 跟 你 談 一 個 個 案 而 已 喔 , 我 是 從 個 案 看 到 通 案 喔 就 是 因 為 我 們 從 這 個 看 到 的 就 是 說 , 我 們 現 在 的 規 定 只 給 予 母 公 司 本 身 但 我 們 現 在 實 質 在 作 業 上 , 交 易 所 這 邊 會 針 對 這 個 子 公 司 一 起 來 做 一 個 考 量 只 是 說 , 我 們 現 在 也 在 研 議 說 要 不 要 修 我 們 的 政 交 法 , 把 子 公 司 整 個 納 進 來 , 我 們 正 在 研 議 中\n\n08:03.052 --> 08:29.090\n研 議 把 子 公 司 納 入 整 個 資 產 取 儲 的 一 個 範 圍 納 入 這 個 取 儲 範 圍 當 中 才 不 會 有 變 相 掏 空 的 一 個 嫌 疑 嘛 那 同 樣 的 道 理 啊 你 在 資 產 取 儲 的 部 分 會 影 響 到 內 積 內 空 的 情 況 底 下 那 是 不 是 有 可 能 先 行 把 這 些 子 公 司 的 部 分 呢 把 它 納 入 啊 這 一 個 永 續 報 告 書 的 範 圍 也 就 是 簡 單 的 講 呢 就 是 把 這 個 E S G 的 部 分 把 它 家 族 化\n\n08:30.470 --> 08:55.963\n他 既 然 公 司 可 以 集 團 化 了 那 你 為 什 麼 不 要 求 E S G 把 它 家 族 化 的 可 能 性 呢 我 們 現 在 是 不 是 那 個 金 融 機 構 已 經 把 所 有 子 公 司 納 入 但 其 他 上 市 櫃 公 司 我 們 是 不 是 還 沒 嘛 對 我 們 反 正 這 個 未 來 永 續 報 告 金 融 機 構 有 因 為 我 們 金 融 機 構 公 股 銀 行 就 成 立 一 個 E S G 大 聯 盟 啊 那 我 是 說 你 基 本 上 你 應 該 複 製 或 者 是 擴 大 嘛\n\n08:56.623 --> 09:13.946\n副 職 擴 大 的 情 況 底 下 簡 單 的 講 就 是 一 個 家 族 化 的 概 念 那 你 如 果 說 有 集 團 式 的 公 司 的 話 你 是 不 是 可 以 用 這 種 方 式 把 集 團 化 把 它 家 族 化 把 E S G 不 是 單 純 的 一 個 母 公 司 的 事 情 而 是 集 團 化 的 事 情 來 以 大 小 的 方 式 來 建 構 這 個 E S G 的 標 準 跟 環 境\n\n09:15.651 --> 09:30.980\n這 是 一 個 目 標 因 為 我 們 商 會 公 司 其 實 牽 涉 到 範 圍 非 常 複 雜 不 像 金 融 業 比 較 單 純 假 設 金 融 業 實 施 他 有 這 個 經 驗 我 想 我 們 在 持 續 優 化 這 整 個 比 如 說 永 續 報 告 書 的 值 跟 量 我 們 這 部 分 我 們 當 然 可 以 來\n\n09:32.040 --> 09:35.381\n主 委 請 你 這 個 部 分 的 會 心 一 下 花 點 時 間 來 跟 本 席 說 明 一 下 最 後 本 席 想 請 教 你 一 件 事 情 剛 剛 有 幾 位 委 員 有 關 心 到 最 近 大 家 討 論 的 是 個\n\n09:54.182 --> 10:04.077\n新 興 病 或 中 性 病 的 部 分 你 剛 才 提 到 就 個 案 的 部 分 你 好 像 傾 向 不 評 論 可 是 就 政 策 上 您 的 態 度 是 怎 麼 樣\n\n10:05.522 --> 10:27.541\n按 照 我 們 金 控 法 第 1 8 條 我 們 本 來 就 有 一 個 金 控 整 併 的 條 文 這 個 本 來 就 當 初 在 制 度 設 計 就 已 經 考 慮 到 任 何 一 個 金 融 機 構 或 金 融 相 關 事 業 本 來 就 有 入 場 退 場 的 規 定 那 我 們 尊 重 市 場 的 機 制 當 然 我 跟 你 講 因 為 金 控 的 規 模 都 比 較 大 這 個 還 有 現 在 公 平 會 的 職 權 這 部 分 其 實 我 們 在 還 沒 有 收 到 任 何 正 式 的 文 件 之 前 我 們 真 的\n\n10:28.341 --> 10:28.942\n主 管 金 融 事 務 部 長\n\n10:40.745 --> 10:47.471\n推 不 推 ? 鼓 不 鼓 勵 嘛 ? 還 是 看 個 案 ? 你 沒 有 政 策 , 你 只 有 個 案 ? 你 不 覺 得 台 灣 的 銀 行 太 多 嗎 ? 你 不 覺 得 需 要 整 州 一 個 亞 洲 級 的 , 然 後 來 打 亞 洲 盃 嗎 ?\n\n11:02.552 --> 11:21.787\n這 當 然 是 一 個 我 們 可 以 想 像 的 目 標 但 是 其 實 上 我 們 有 很 多 的 條 件 必 須 滿 足 啦 對 啊 但 是 規 模 至 少 是 一 個 基 本 的 條 件 嘛 我 很 希 望 看 到 主 委 的 基 本 的 政 策 態 度 啦 謝 謝 主 委 謝 謝 委 員 的 指 教 謝 謝 謝 謝 郭 國 文 的 質 詢 下 一 位 請 王 宏 偉 委 員 質 詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.981,"end":5.001,"text":"黃國健議員"},{"start":35.001,"end":53.784,"text":"但是我本席這邊要對您說的是說你如果只是一個鼓勵跟指引那企業如果是一個消極的態度去面對的話恐怕這個ESG的這個標準是不是能夠形成一個公信形成一個具體的指標就令人擔憂啦所以我看到的是這樣子"},{"start":54.485,"end":70.455,"text":"我們台灣指數公司確實有針對這些公司來進行一些永續的一個評鑑但是評鑑過程當中屢屢引起一些爭議爭議在哪裡?爭議在這個別的公司在評鑑上有的是優等生有的是特優生但是呢卻有違反這個社會責任"},{"start":71.656,"end":75.857,"text":"Puget也有許多的民間團體讀懂的這個協會調查到目前為止經營階層當中對這個ESG的認知還相當的缺乏"},{"start":94.002,"end":113.499,"text":"重視程度還有待加強甚至對這個相關的問題還不甚了解這種情況底下我想請問一下主委主委是不是可以比照像薪酬或審計委員會的這個部分在規範上能夠稍微強制一點譬如講成立一個永續發展委員會不需要主委的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":114.91,"end":141.289,"text":"現在我想各個公司呢比如說我們省紀委員會當然是強制要設還有現在永續委員會這是各個公司可以來決定就像我們薪酬一樣那我們有些有強制力我們會持續的評估像比如說如何強化公司治理像比如說省紀委員會設置還有他的權責把它加重就是我們從實務上看到的比如說假設委員有提到未來永續會是一個長遠要落實的政策的話我們會請我們相關的單位來評估這樣的"},{"start":144.031,"end":165.582,"text":"我稍微push一下好不好稍微強制一下這個效果才會出來嘛你想一想喔像我們所有這個資訊的揭露你包括這個所謂的平淺的台灣指數公司所平淺的內容當中它也是事後指標它也沒有辦法去驗證它的真實性如果說呢這個永續報告書這麼重要如同是財報的這個地位的話財報還有會計師在做認證那永續報告書誰來認證對不對"},{"start":174.554,"end":181.819,"text":"現在我們其實有請交易所跟櫃買做審閱剛剛有跟委員報告過當然就是說現在我們剛剛提到就是我們在做這個永續報告的時候一開始大家都是我們是鼓勵所以我們盡量請他們先做獨立的報告這個部分我們當然是會不斷的優化"},{"start":197.449,"end":199.05,"text":"我可不可以請副局長回答一下"},{"start":221.388,"end":249.85,"text":"是報告委員因為那個永續報告書其實是交易所這邊的規定所以違反是違反交易所那邊有相關交易所的違約金的處分只是說永續報告書有一些介入內容我們現在也把它放到年報裡面股東會的年報那股東會年報如果記載有虛偽不實那就會違反我們政交法那就是要放到年報以後才算符合這個法令就是我們有重複性的介入項目放在年報裡面那就會link到政交法"},{"start":250.871,"end":250.911,"text":"法規上﹖"},{"start":276.92,"end":277.16,"text":"市場上有跟業界討論所以是用這個"},{"start":304.41,"end":330.685,"text":"現在不一致了?對,現在的話我們是用剛剛那個評鑑指標來對,是用評鑑指標嘛,但是法規不一樣嘛那現在這個標準不一樣,那要怎麼去確定,怎樣去處理我覺得我不是把所有的這個loading都放在你身上你是不是可以找國發會做一個平台把環境部找來,把經濟部找來,相關的部會找來我們來談一談,到底官方的真正的標準是什麼你如果沒有一個標準的話"},{"start":331.886,"end":333.987,"text":"我們現在是不是上次應該最近就會發布那個原則了對"},{"start":360.72,"end":361.56,"text":"指標會擴大所有到永續報告書的公司嗎?"},{"start":383.919,"end":384.459,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":401.713,"end":429.754,"text":"就是有關於這個公司治理的部分永續報告書當中的公司治理當然就是以你本來的這個主體公司為主但是你的主體公司當中呢你有一部分的這個取儲啊成立了子公司之後好像子公司就獨立化了可是子公司獨立化他只要經過一次取儲他就到外面就變成一個那個整個外部的交易隨便他取儲啦主委"},{"start":430.905,"end":455.675,"text":"你如果內部交你還有一些規範喔那外部沒有喔可是明明這是原來那個母公司的一個資產那你成立子公司成立子公司以後你就不管他了可是他成立子公司如果成立一家還好他如果成立了一二十家那不是變相的一種掏空嗎變相的違反你的內部的內積內空的一個治理的範圍嗎對這部分的現象我不需要主委你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":456.295,"end":481.611,"text":"報告委員,我想對於這個案子,我們有一些案例發生以後呢,其實我們對於我不是跟你談一個個案而已喔,我是從個案看到通案喔就是因為我們從這個看到的就是說,我們現在的規定只給予母公司本身但我們現在實質在作業上,交易所這邊會針對這個子公司一起來做一個考量只是說,我們現在也在研議說要不要修我們的政交法,把子公司整個納進來,我們正在研議中"},{"start":483.052,"end":509.09,"text":"研議把子公司納入整個資產取儲的一個範圍納入這個取儲範圍當中才不會有變相掏空的一個嫌疑嘛那同樣的道理啊你在資產取儲的部分會影響到內積內空的情況底下那是不是有可能先行把這些子公司的部分呢把它納入啊這一個永續報告書的範圍也就是簡單的講呢就是把這個ESG的部分把它家族化"},{"start":510.47,"end":535.963,"text":"他既然公司可以集團化了那你為什麼不要求ESG把它家族化的可能性呢我們現在是不是那個金融機構已經把所有子公司納入但其他上市櫃公司我們是不是還沒嘛對我們反正這個未來永續報告金融機構有因為我們金融機構公股銀行就成立一個ESG大聯盟啊那我是說你基本上你應該複製或者是擴大嘛"},{"start":536.623,"end":553.946,"text":"副職擴大的情況底下簡單的講就是一個家族化的概念那你如果說有集團式的公司的話你是不是可以用這種方式把集團化把它家族化把ESG不是單純的一個母公司的事情而是集團化的事情來以大小的方式來建構這個ESG的標準跟環境"},{"start":555.651,"end":570.98,"text":"這是一個目標因為我們商會公司其實牽涉到範圍非常複雜不像金融業比較單純假設金融業實施他有這個經驗我想我們在持續優化這整個比如說永續報告書的值跟量我們這部分我們當然可以來"},{"start":572.04,"end":575.381,"text":"主委請你這個部分的會心一下花點時間來跟本席說明一下最後本席想請教你一件事情剛剛有幾位委員有關心到最近大家討論的是個"},{"start":594.182,"end":604.077,"text":"新興病或中性病的部分你剛才提到就個案的部分你好像傾向不評論可是就政策上您的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":605.522,"end":627.541,"text":"按照我們金控法第18條我們本來就有一個金控整併的條文這個本來就當初在制度設計就已經考慮到任何一個金融機構或金融相關事業本來就有入場退場的規定那我們尊重市場的機制當然我跟你講因為金控的規模都比較大這個還有現在公平會的職權這部分其實我們在還沒有收到任何正式的文件之前我們真的"},{"start":628.341,"end":628.942,"text":"主管金融事務部長"},{"start":640.745,"end":647.471,"text":"推不推?鼓不鼓勵嘛?還是看個案?你沒有政策,你只有個案?你不覺得台灣的銀行太多嗎?你不覺得需要整州一個亞洲級的,然後來打亞洲盃嗎?"},{"start":662.552,"end":681.787,"text":"這當然是一個我們可以想像的目標但是其實上我們有很多的條件必須滿足啦對啊但是規模至少是一個基本的條件嘛我很希望看到主委的基本的政策態度啦謝謝主委謝謝委員的指教謝謝謝謝郭國文的質詢下一位請王宏偉委員質詢"}]}}}}