{"id":153373,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153373","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba6abe1261d663036d4622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e913744ee2905264f656d115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:30:50 - 10:42:15","影片長度":"00:11:25","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:30:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T10:42:15+08:00","duration":685,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時30分）謝謝主席，有請金管會主委、財政部部長、兆豐董事長、土銀董事長。"],["主席：有請彭主委、莊部長、雷董事長及謝董事長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：今天我們針對的是如何精進ESG制度的評鑑，落實到金融機構放款、貸款的管理工作，我們希望讓它更好。在ESG裡頭，E代表的是環境的保護，S是社會責任，G是公司的治理、管理，在此想先請教臺灣銀行董事長，針對前不久亞洲水泥在花蓮新城鄉的大火，這樣子的大火發生的時候，你們如何去處理？亞泥發生了這一些問題，你如何去監督這個企業的環保問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：我請呂董事長來說明好嗎？"],["主席：請呂董。"],["呂董事長桔誠：是不是請委員可以再指教這個問題，因為我正好在討論。"],["賴委員惠員：就是針對亞洲水泥前不久在花蓮發生的火警，你們是它最大的聯貸銀行，請問你怎麼樣來看這一個企業的環保議題？你後續有去關心嗎？然後你做了什麼樣的追蹤嗎？"],["呂董事長桔誠：針對這個個案後續的處理，我們可以事後提一個報告沒有問題，但是所有的貸後管理，特別是如果有發生這樣子的狀況，一定都會有所關注。"],["賴委員惠員：怎麼樣關注？"],["呂董事長桔誠：我想第一個要確認它是不是有造成多大的影響，當然這是媒體報導，但是這一個……"],["賴委員惠員：那你有沒有實際瞭解這個案子呢？"],["呂董事長桔誠：我個人沒有實際瞭解，對不起。"],["賴委員惠員：那你下面的人也沒有跟你報告？"],["呂董事長桔誠：沒有。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你也不管？"],["呂董事長桔誠：不是不管，因為我沒有看到這一則新聞。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有看到這一則新聞？"],["呂董事長桔誠：是。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你私下還會提供給我一份……"],["呂董事長桔誠：對，我請總經理把這部分整理一下，然後跟您做個報告。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝董事長。"],["呂董事長桔誠：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：本席所針對的是公股銀行怎麼樣去反應租賃公司借高利貸的社會責任的問題，在這裡我要請教，所有租賃公司最大的聯貸放款銀行就是土地銀行，我想請教土地銀行董事長，你看在這一段時間，其實這三個月以來，本席一直針對租賃公司的社會責任提出質詢，它不斷地製造太多的社會問題，不是銀行竟然可以做最大的高利貸放款，甚至超過二十二倍，在這種情況下，身為租賃公司最大的放款聯貸銀行，你怎麼樣去看這個問題呢？"],["謝董事長娟娟：報告委員，在上一次的會議裡頭我有跟委員報告，委員也有關心到這個議題，我首先要說明的是土地銀行貸放給融資公司，其實它大部分的資金都是放在太陽能跟綠色電廠設置所需要的資金。至於委員所關心的貸後管理的部分，事實上，發生了這件事情之後，我們也有找這三大租賃公司的高層，他們也很有誠意的到銀行來拜訪。"],["賴委員惠員：怎麼樣的誠意？你有逐筆檢查嗎？"],["謝董事長娟娟：他們親自來拜訪，然後他們有說明他們裡面的管理，我們也責成他們必須要做好所有的資金貸放。"],["賴委員惠員：責成？聽起來好像就是說……"],["謝董事長娟娟：他們也保證啦，他們也保證不會這樣做。"],["賴委員惠員：怎麼樣的保證？董事長，怎麼樣的保證？"],["謝董事長娟娟：我想大家都有共識，就是從公會、治理的部分來制定，大家有同樣的一個遊戲規則，他們一定會嚴守。"],["賴委員惠員：好，請你會後給我一份報告，好不好？"],["謝董事長娟娟：好，沒有問題。"],["賴委員惠員：顯然這樣子講起來還是非常的空，大家也聽不清楚，而且我的時間也有限。","接下來請問兆豐銀行董事長，有關公股銀行如何反應企業公司化管理的部分，台北天空塔遭到掏空，海外股權也全部出售了，有關這個過程，昨天最新的新聞報導表示，買方把中資摒除了。可是在這之前，信義區的台北天空塔在落成後將成為臺灣第二高樓，但是卻遭掏空10億，這前前後後，不曉得兆豐有沒有特別注意到這個案例呢？"],["雷董事長仲達：跟委員報告，這整個案件我們從頭到尾都有在關注，其實在去年5月我們就停止撥款，因為這個案子是一直在蓋，只是股東之間的一個紛爭，所以造成包括到底股權是在哪個地方、有沒有賣掉、有沒有質押等問題，甚至中資的問題，但是我們去年就已經掌握整個狀況，停止撥款了。"],["賴委員惠員：所以這些狀況都在你的掌握中？"],["雷董事長仲達：掌握之中。"],["賴委員惠員：直到最近，也就是說，在這個過程裡頭，一個就是假債權，然後變成真的股權，它在海外的一個控股公司，你們都有掌控？"],["雷董事長仲達：在掌控之中。"],["賴委員惠員：好，也請給我一份報告，好不好？"],["雷董事長仲達：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：接著我想請問部長。部長，前兆豐董事長蔡友才，他的掏空……"],["雷董事長仲達：他沒有掏空啦，那個是我們在紐約被裁罰的案子。"],["賴委員惠員：好，紐約被裁罰的案子。"],["雷董事長仲達：是。"],["賴委員惠員：所以跟蔡友才沒有關係嗎？"],["雷董事長仲達：現在我們也在追究責任啦，是不是有督導不周……"],["賴委員惠員：那為什麼會一審判了9個月咧？"],["雷董事長仲達：喔，那個當然就是法院……"],["賴委員惠員：董事長，我跟你講，沒有關係，這個我請問財政部莊部長，在兆豐前董事長蔡友才的這個案子裡頭，兆豐學到什麼樣的教訓？你有沒有特別去關懷這一個議題？你看，兆豐為了這個案子，裡裡外外付了多少的法律費用，然後我們提供了多少的擔保品給法院，這確實就是造成兆豐在社會上有一個非常非常大的負面，不知道部長怎麼看待這個事情？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，兆豐的這個案子是它在紐約的分行被美國當地的金融監理機關罰款，然後罰得非常的重，當然在國內金融業也造成了很大的一個衝擊，我覺得這個是一個教訓，就是委員剛才講的一個教訓，從這個經驗裡面，我們認為洗錢防制要非常的重視，因為國際間對這樣的作業都非常重視。另外，有關洗錢防制，尤其是在國外的分行，它要遵照當地的金融法規，要非常重視這個。第二個，必須要找第三方驗證公司來驗證我們做的是否足夠。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯、沒有錯，這就是我們在這個過程裡所學到的一個教訓。部長，我給你看一張名片，這是開發公司資深合夥人蔡永義的名片，這家開發公司是盛景開發公司，而蔡永義原本是兆豐的前總經理，他在發生這些事情之後，竟然還有辦法擔任資深合夥人，什麼叫資深合夥人？是不是就是借貸有功，所以未來就可以來做這樣的資深合夥人？所以我一直在講說，我們在這整個案子裡學到了什麼樣教訓？涉嫌淘空的邱冠勳在海外成立盛景公司，他邀請蔡永義來擔任盛景公司的資深合夥人，剛才兆豐的董事長跟我說這個不叫掏空案，不然什麼才叫掏空案？顯然對於這個案子，我想你也是深刻地去瞭解，輕輕地把它放下，這中間我們付出了這麼大的一個社會成本，我們學到什麼？中間有沒有背信？我們要不要查清楚呢？你看這一張名片，這個多諷刺啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：這樣子，對於蔡永義這個個人的情況，我們在會後再去做一個完整瞭解，是不是再跟委員做報告？"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我跟你報告，我們當官有名，大家都知道你是非常好的一個財政部部長，可是有沒有利？據說這個蔡永義目前坐的車子絕對是比你的還高級，每個月領的薪水也絕對比你多更多，甚至超級多，在這個過程裡頭，我們有沒有一套比較好的方式，可以來管理這些公股銀行的董事長、監察人、經理人的監督力道？我們可以不可以盤查後續任職單位是否跟公股銀行的借貸有什麼樣的關係？你不能說他發生事情退下來了以後，然後就這樣子不了了之。當然，我們不是共產國家，我們不會像大陸一樣，去把他之前的薪水都是追討出來，但是在這裡我要提醒我們的主委，這也是一門很重要的功課，我們希望能做好這樣一個約束管理，因為他們不是公務人員，我們只能用背信去約束他們，你看，出來每一件事情的紕漏都是這麼大，所以要請各位對於這個做好監督管理，我們希望有信心可以把它整頓好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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?\n\n4\n00:01:23,566 --> 00:01:48,743\n是 不 是 請 委 員 可 以 再 指 教 的 問 題 因 為 我 正 好 在 討 論 就 是 針 對 的 就 是 亞 洲 水 泥 它 在 花 蓮 發 生 的 前 不 久 發 生 的 一 個 火 警 那 就 是 說 我 們 土 銀 你 是 它 最 大 的 一 個 連 帶 銀 行 你 怎 麼 樣 來 看 這 一 個 企 業 的 一 個 環 保 議 題 你 後 續 你 有 去 關 心 然 後 你 做 了 什 麼 樣 的 一 個 追 蹤 嗎\n\n5\n00:01:50,029 --> 00:01:50,069\n怎 麼 樣 關 注 ?\n\n6\n00:02:06,695 --> 00:02:23,203\n我 想 第 一 個 要 確 認 說 它 是 不 是 有 造 成 這 一 個 多 大 的 影 響 當 然 這 是 媒 體 報 導 但 是 這 一 個 那 你 有 沒 有 實 際 了 解 這 個 案 子 我 個 人 沒 有 實 際 了 解 對 不 起 那 你 下 面 有 沒 有 給 你 報 告 沒 有 所 以 你 也 不 管\n\n7\n00:02:23,746 --> 00:02:24,327\n針 對 的 就 是 說 我 們 公 股 銀 行\n\n8\n00:02:41,604 --> 00:02:57,541\n主 任 公 司 借 高 利 貸 的 這 個 社 會 責 任 的 一 個 問 題 那 在 這 裡 我 要 請 教 就 是 說 我 們 所 有 的 一 個 這 個 主 任 公 司 最 大 的 一 個 年 代 換 款 的 銀 行 就 是 我 們 的 土 地 銀 行 土 地 銀 行 董 事 長\n\n9\n00:03:00,678 --> 00:03:20,186\n董 事 長 你 看 在 這 段 時 間 其 實 這 三 個 月 以 來 本 席 一 直 針 對 的 主 任 公 司 的 一 個 社 會 責 任 他 不 斷 的 製 造 太 多 的 一 個 社 會 問 題 不 是 銀 行 竟 然 就 是 說 可 以 做 最 大 的 最 大 的 一 個 那 個 高 利 貸 的 一 個 換 款\n\n10\n00:03:21,286 --> 00:03:31,677\n那 甚 至 超 過 2 2 倍 那 這 樣 子 的 話 你 作 為 身 為 一 個 就 是 最 大 的 這 個 主 任 公 司 的 一 個 換 款 的 年 代 銀 行 你 怎 麼 樣 去 看 這 個 問 題 呢\n\n11\n00:03:35,198 --> 00:03:58,202\n報 告 委 員 我 想 在 上 一 次 的 這 個 會 議 裡 頭 呢 我 有 跟 委 員 報 告 我 也 有 關 心 到 這 個 議 題 那 我 首 先 要 說 明 的 是 土 地 銀 行 貸 放 的 這 個 給 融 資 公 司 呢 其 實 它 大 部 分 的 資 金 呢 都 是 放 在 這 個 太 陽 能 跟 綠 色 的 一 個 電 廠 的 一 個 設 置 所 需 要 的 資 金 那 委 員 關 心 的 貸 後\n\n12\n00:04:31,830 --> 00:04:36,014\n責 成 就 聽 起 來 好 像 他 們 也 保 證 啊 他 們 也 保 證 他 不 會 這 樣 做 董 事 長 怎 麼 樣 的 一 個 保 證 呢\n\n13\n00:04:40,444 --> 00:05:08,156\n我 想 大 家 都 有 共 識 就 是 說 從 那 個 公 會 治 理 的 部 分 來 制 定 那 大 家 有 同 樣 的 一 個 遊 戲 規 則 那 他 們 一 定 會 嚴 守 好 我 跟 你 講 你 會 後 給 我 一 份 報 告 好 不 好 現 在 這 樣 子 講 起 來 還 是 非 常 的 一 個 空 那 大 家 也 聽 不 清 楚 那 就 是 說 其 實 我 們 的 時 間 也 有 限 來 趙 鳳 營 養 董 事 長 我 想 針 對 著 公 股 銀 行 如 何 反 映 企 業 的 公 司 化 的 一 個 管 理\n\n14\n00:05:10,052 --> 00:05:38,531\n臺 北 天 空 塔 遭 到 掏 空 了 海 外 的 股 權 也 全 部 出 售 了 這 個 過 程 裡 頭 昨 天 最 新 的 新 聞 他 說 買 方 把 中 資 併 儲 了 可 是 在 這 之 前 的 時 候 我 們 作 為 一 個 臺 灣 的 第 二 高 樓 我 們 知 道 就 是 說 在 信 義 區 裡 頭 這 個 掏 空 了 1 0 億 錢 錢 厚 厚 不 曉 得 兆 豐 有 沒 有 特 別 去 注 意 到\n\n15\n00:05:40,673 --> 00:06:07,750\n這 一 個 案 例 呢 跟 委 員 報 告 這 整 個 案 件 我 們 從 頭 到 尾 都 有 在 關 注 其 實 在 去 年 5 月 我 們 就 停 止 撥 款 因 為 這 個 案 子 其 實 他 是 一 直 在 蓋 只 是 那 個 股 東 之 間 的 一 個 紛 爭 所 以 造 成 一 些 就 是 有 一 點 到 底 股 權 是 在 哪 個 地 方 有 沒 有 賣 掉 有 沒 有 質 押 這 個 問 題 甚 至 中 資 的 問 題 但 是 我 們 去 年 就 已 經 掌 握 整 個 狀 況 停 止 撥 款 了\n\n16\n00:06:09,151 --> 00:06:09,271\n財 政 部 莊 部 長\n\n17\n00:06:33,465 --> 00:06:57,918\n我 們 前 兆 豐 的 一 個 董 事 長 蔡 友 才 蔡 友 才 我 想 這 個 他 的 一 個 那 個 就 是 這 個 掏 空 那 沒 有 掏 空 啦 那 個 是 他 等 於 是 我 們 在 紐 約 被 裁 罰 的 案 子 對 好 紐 約 被 裁 罰 的 案 子 是 所 以 跟 蔡 友 才 沒 有 關 係 嗎 現 在 就 當 我 們 也 在 追 究 責 任 那 為 什 麼 會 你 審 判 了 9 個 月 勒\n\n18\n00:07:00,739 --> 00:07:28,499\n董 事 長 我 跟 你 講 沒 有 關 係 這 個 我 請 問 財 政 部 部 長 就 是 說 在 趙 鋒 前 董 事 長 蔡 友 才 的 這 個 案 子 裡 頭 趙 鋒 學 到 什 麼 樣 的 一 個 教 訓 你 有 沒 有 特 別 去 關 懷 這 個 議 題 呢 你 看 趙 鋒 為 了 這 個 案 子 就 是 說 我 們 里 裡 外 外 我 們 互 了 多 少 的 一 個 法 律 的 一 個 會 用 然 後 我 們 提 供 了 多 少 的 擔 保 品 給\n\n19\n00:07:31,041 --> 00:07:44,373\n這 個 確 實 就 是 造 成 這 個 兆 豐 在 這 個 社 會 上 就 是 有 一 個 非 常 非 常 大 的 一 個 負 面 那 不 知 道 部 長 怎 麼 看 待 這 個 事 情 是 謝 謝 委 員 兆 豐 這 個 案 子 在 紐 約 分 行\n\n20\n00:07:45,246 --> 00:07:58,581\n被 美 國 當 地 的 金 融 監 理 機 關 罰 款 那 罰 了 非 常 的 重 那 當 然 在 國 內 的 金 融 業 造 成 了 也 很 大 的 一 個 衝 擊 那 我 覺 得 這 個 是 一 個 教 訓 就 是 您 委 員 講 的 一 個 教 訓 從 這 個 經 驗 裡 面 我 們 認 為\n\n21\n00:08:00,763 --> 00:08:05,949\n洗 錢 防 治 要 非 常 重 視 因 為 國 際 間 對 這 樣 的 一 個 作 業 都 非 常 重 要 都 非 常 重 視 另 外 洗 錢 防 治 我 們 在 尤 其 在 國 外 的 分 行 他 要 遵 照 當 地 的 金 融 法 規 要 非 常 重 視 這 個 第 二 個 必 須 要 找 第 三 方 的 驗 證 公 司 來 驗 證 我 們 沒 有 錯 沒 有 錯\n\n22\n00:08:19,884 --> 00:08:39,267\n這 個 是 我 們 在 這 個 過 程 裡 頭 學 到 的 一 個 教 訓 我 給 你 看 到 一 張 名 片 這 個 是 一 個 開 發 公 司 盛 景 開 發 公 司 這 個 蔡 永 毅 在 這 一 個 發 生 了 這 些 事 情 的 以 後 這 個 蔡 永 毅 是 我 們 兆 豐 的 前 總 經 理 他 竟 然 還 有 辦 法 什 麼 叫 資 深 合 夥 人\n\n23\n00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:40,140\n賴 惠 員\n\n24\n00:09:10,701 --> 00:09:10,721\n賴 惠 員\n\n25\n00:09:27,179 --> 00:09:40,333\n你 看 這 張 名 片 這 個 多 諷 刺 啊 部 長 那 這 樣 子 喔 對 於 蔡 永 毅 這 個 個 人 的 一 個 情 況 我 們 會 在 會 後 再 完 全 再 做 一 個 瞭 解 是 不 是 跟 委 員 做 報 告 部 長 我 跟 你 報 告 齁 這 個\n\n26\n00:09:42,535 --> 00:10:04,362\n我 們 當 官 有 名 大 家 都 知 道 你 是 非 常 好 的 一 個 財 政 部 部 長 可 是 有 沒 有 利 你 知 道 據 說 據 說 啦 據 說 說 這 個 蔡 永 毅 目 前 坐 的 車 子 絕 對 是 比 你 還 高 級 每 個 月 領 的 薪 水 絕 對 比 你 多 還 更 多 甚 至\n\n27\n00:10:06,983 --> 00:10:31,150\n在 這 個 過 程 裡 頭 我 們 有 沒 有 一 套 比 較 好 的 方 式 可 以 來 管 理 這 些 公 股 銀 行 的 這 個 董 事 長 、 監 察 人 、 經 理 人 的 一 個 監 督 的 力 道 我 們 可 不 可 以 盤 查 後 續 任 職 單 位 是 否 跟 公 股 銀 行 的 一 個 借 貸 有 什 麼 樣 的 一 個 關 係 你 不 能 就 是 說 他 發 生 事 情 他 退 下 來 了 以 後 然 後 就 是 這 樣 子\n\n28\n00:10:31,570 --> 00:10:31,590\n賴 惠 員\n\n29\n00:10:53,320 --> 00:11:09,829\n我 們 只 能 用 背 信 去 約 束 他 們 那 你 看 出 來 每 一 件 事 情 的 皮 肉 都 是 這 麼 大 所 以 就 是 要 請 各 位 就 是 對 於 這 一 個 就 是 監 督 管 理 我 們 希 望 有 信 心 可 以 把 它 就 是 整 頓 好 謝 謝 謝 謝 委 員 謝 謝 賴 惠 員 的 質 詢 接 著 我 們 請 李 坤 成 委 員 質 詢\n\n30\n00:11:22,126 --> 00:11:23,553\n謝 謝 主 席 , 我 們 請 彭 主 委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1196\t19802\t有請彭主委、莊部長、雷董還有謝董委員好我想今天我們針對的就是如何精進ESG制度的一個評鑑那落實到就是金融機構的一個\n21142\t21882\t新城鄉大火\n50629\t76779\t那這樣子的一個大火發生的時候那你們如何去處理就是說亞泥發生了這一些問題那反應就是說你如何去監督他的企業的一個環保問題哪一個銀行?臺銀嗎?臺銀臺灣銀行是不是?那我們是不是請請董事長說明好嗎?\n83566\t108743\t是不是請委員可以再指教的問題因為我正好在討論就是針對的就是亞洲水泥它在花蓮發生的前不久發生的一個火警那就是說我們土銀你是它最大的一個連帶銀行你怎麼樣來看這一個企業的一個環保議題你後續你有去關心然後你做了什麼樣的一個追蹤嗎\n110029\t110069\t怎麼樣關注?\n126695\t143203\t我想第一個要確認說它是不是有造成這一個多大的影響當然這是媒體報導但是這一個那你有沒有實際了解這個案子我個人沒有實際了解對不起那你下面有沒有給你報告沒有所以你也不管\n143746\t144327\t針對的就是說我們公股銀行\n161604\t177541\t主任公司借高利貸的這個社會責任的一個問題那在這裡我要請教就是說我們所有的一個這個主任公司最大的一個年代換款的銀行就是我們的土地銀行土地銀行董事長\n180678\t200186\t董事長你看在這段時間其實這三個月以來本席一直針對的主任公司的一個社會責任他不斷的製造太多的一個社會問題不是銀行竟然就是說可以做最大的最大的一個那個高利貸的一個換款\n201286\t211677\t那甚至超過22倍那這樣子的話你作為身為一個就是最大的這個主任公司的一個換款的年代銀行你怎麼樣去看這個問題呢\n215198\t238202\t報告委員我想在上一次的這個會議裡頭呢我有跟委員報告我也有關心到這個議題那我首先要說明的是土地銀行貸放的這個給融資公司呢其實它大部分的資金呢都是放在這個太陽能跟綠色的一個電廠的一個設置所需要的資金那委員關心的貸後\n242483\t271186\t貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸\n271830\t276014\t責成就聽起來好像他們也保證啊他們也保證他不會這樣做董事長 怎麼樣的一個保證呢\n280444\t308156\t我想大家都有共識就是說從那個公會治理的部分來制定那大家有同樣的一個遊戲規則那他們一定會嚴守好我跟你講你會後給我一份報告好不好現在這樣子講起來還是非常的一個空那大家也聽不清楚那就是說其實我們的時間也有限來趙鳳營養董事長我想針對著公股銀行如何反映企業的公司化的一個管理\n310052\t338531\t臺北天空塔遭到掏空了海外的股權也全部出售了這個過程裡頭昨天最新的新聞他說買方把中資併儲了可是在這之前的時候我們作為一個臺灣的第二高樓我們知道就是說在信義區裡頭這個掏空了10億錢錢厚厚不曉得兆豐有沒有特別去注意到\n340673\t367750\t這一個案例呢跟委員報告這整個案件我們從頭到尾都有在關注其實在去年5月我們就停止撥款因為這個案子其實他是一直在蓋只是那個股東之間的一個紛爭所以造成一些就是有一點到底股權是在哪個地方有沒有賣掉有沒有質押這個問題甚至中資的問題但是我們去年就已經掌握整個狀況停止撥款了\n369151\t369271\t財政部莊部長\n393465\t417918\t我們前兆豐的一個董事長蔡友才蔡友才我想這個他的一個那個就是這個掏空那沒有掏空啦那個是他等於是我們在紐約被裁罰的案子對好紐約被裁罰的案子是所以跟蔡友才沒有關係嗎現在就當我們也在追究責任那為什麼會你審判了9個月勒\n420739\t448499\t董事長我跟你講沒有關係這個我請問財政部部長就是說在趙鋒前董事長蔡友才的這個案子裡頭趙鋒學到什麼樣的一個教訓你有沒有特別去關懷這個議題呢你看趙鋒為了這個案子就是說我們里裡外外我們互了多少的一個法律的一個會用然後我們提供了多少的擔保品給\n451041\t464373\t這個確實就是造成這個兆豐在這個社會上就是有一個非常非常大的一個負面那不知道部長怎麼看待這個事情是謝謝委員兆豐這個案子在紐約分行\n465246\t478581\t被美國當地的金融監理機關罰款那罰了非常的重那當然在國內的金融業造成了也很大的一個衝擊那我覺得這個是一個教訓就是您委員講的一個教訓從這個經驗裡面我們認為\n480763\t485949\t洗錢防治要非常重視因為國際間對這樣的一個作業都非常重要都非常重視另外洗錢防治我們在尤其在國外的分行他要遵照當地的金融法規要非常重視這個第二個必須要找第三方的驗證公司來驗證我們沒有錯沒有錯\n499884\t519267\t這個是我們在這個過程裡頭學到的一個教訓我給你看到一張名片這個是一個開發公司盛景開發公司這個蔡永毅在這一個發生了這些事情的以後這個蔡永毅是我們兆豐的前總經理他竟然還有辦法什麼叫資深合夥人\n520120\t520140\t賴惠員\n550701\t550721\t賴惠員\n567179\t580333\t你看這張名片這個多諷刺啊部長那這樣子喔對於蔡永毅這個個人的一個情況我們會在會後再完全再做一個瞭解是不是跟委員做報告部長我跟你報告齁這個\n582535\t604362\t我們當官有名大家都知道你是非常好的一個財政部部長可是有沒有利你知道據說據說啦據說說這個蔡永毅目前坐的車子絕對是比你還高級每個月領的薪水絕對比你多還更多甚至\n606983\t631150\t在這個過程裡頭我們有沒有一套比較好的方式可以來管理這些公股銀行的這個董事長、監察人、經理人的一個監督的力道我們可不可以盤查後續任職單位是否跟公股銀行的一個借貸有什麼樣的一個關係你不能就是說他發生事情他退下來了以後然後就是這樣子\n631570\t631590\t賴惠員\n653320\t669829\t我們只能用背信去約束他們那你看出來每一件事情的皮肉都是這麼大所以就是要請各位就是對於這一個就是監督管理我們希望有信心可以把它就是整頓好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝賴惠員的質詢接著我們請李坤成委員質詢\n682126\t683553\t謝謝主席,我們請彭主委\n","txt":"有請彭主委、莊部長、雷董還有謝董委員好我想今天我們針對的就是如何精進ESG制度的一個評鑑那落實到就是金融機構的一個\n新城鄉大火\n那這樣子的一個大火發生的時候那你們如何去處理就是說亞泥發生了這一些問題那反應就是說你如何去監督他的企業的一個環保問題哪一個銀行?臺銀嗎?臺銀臺灣銀行是不是?那我們是不是請請董事長說明好嗎?\n是不是請委員可以再指教的問題因為我正好在討論就是針對的就是亞洲水泥它在花蓮發生的前不久發生的一個火警那就是說我們土銀你是它最大的一個連帶銀行你怎麼樣來看這一個企業的一個環保議題你後續你有去關心然後你做了什麼樣的一個追蹤嗎\n怎麼樣關注?\n我想第一個要確認說它是不是有造成這一個多大的影響當然這是媒體報導但是這一個那你有沒有實際了解這個案子我個人沒有實際了解對不起那你下面有沒有給你報告沒有所以你也不管\n針對的就是說我們公股銀行\n主任公司借高利貸的這個社會責任的一個問題那在這裡我要請教就是說我們所有的一個這個主任公司最大的一個年代換款的銀行就是我們的土地銀行土地銀行董事長\n董事長你看在這段時間其實這三個月以來本席一直針對的主任公司的一個社會責任他不斷的製造太多的一個社會問題不是銀行竟然就是說可以做最大的最大的一個那個高利貸的一個換款\n那甚至超過22倍那這樣子的話你作為身為一個就是最大的這個主任公司的一個換款的年代銀行你怎麼樣去看這個問題呢\n報告委員我想在上一次的這個會議裡頭呢我有跟委員報告我也有關心到這個議題那我首先要說明的是土地銀行貸放的這個給融資公司呢其實它大部分的資金呢都是放在這個太陽能跟綠色的一個電廠的一個設置所需要的資金那委員關心的貸後\n貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸\n責成就聽起來好像他們也保證啊他們也保證他不會這樣做董事長 怎麼樣的一個保證呢\n我想大家都有共識就是說從那個公會治理的部分來制定那大家有同樣的一個遊戲規則那他們一定會嚴守好我跟你講你會後給我一份報告好不好現在這樣子講起來還是非常的一個空那大家也聽不清楚那就是說其實我們的時間也有限來趙鳳營養董事長我想針對著公股銀行如何反映企業的公司化的一個管理\n臺北天空塔遭到掏空了海外的股權也全部出售了這個過程裡頭昨天最新的新聞他說買方把中資併儲了可是在這之前的時候我們作為一個臺灣的第二高樓我們知道就是說在信義區裡頭這個掏空了10億錢錢厚厚不曉得兆豐有沒有特別去注意到\n這一個案例呢跟委員報告這整個案件我們從頭到尾都有在關注其實在去年5月我們就停止撥款因為這個案子其實他是一直在蓋只是那個股東之間的一個紛爭所以造成一些就是有一點到底股權是在哪個地方有沒有賣掉有沒有質押這個問題甚至中資的問題但是我們去年就已經掌握整個狀況停止撥款了\n財政部莊部長\n我們前兆豐的一個董事長蔡友才蔡友才我想這個他的一個那個就是這個掏空那沒有掏空啦那個是他等於是我們在紐約被裁罰的案子對好紐約被裁罰的案子是所以跟蔡友才沒有關係嗎現在就當我們也在追究責任那為什麼會你審判了9個月勒\n董事長我跟你講沒有關係這個我請問財政部部長就是說在趙鋒前董事長蔡友才的這個案子裡頭趙鋒學到什麼樣的一個教訓你有沒有特別去關懷這個議題呢你看趙鋒為了這個案子就是說我們里裡外外我們互了多少的一個法律的一個會用然後我們提供了多少的擔保品給\n這個確實就是造成這個兆豐在這個社會上就是有一個非常非常大的一個負面那不知道部長怎麼看待這個事情是謝謝委員兆豐這個案子在紐約分行\n被美國當地的金融監理機關罰款那罰了非常的重那當然在國內的金融業造成了也很大的一個衝擊那我覺得這個是一個教訓就是您委員講的一個教訓從這個經驗裡面我們認為\n洗錢防治要非常重視因為國際間對這樣的一個作業都非常重要都非常重視另外洗錢防治我們在尤其在國外的分行他要遵照當地的金融法規要非常重視這個第二個必須要找第三方的驗證公司來驗證我們沒有錯沒有錯\n這個是我們在這個過程裡頭學到的一個教訓我給你看到一張名片這個是一個開發公司盛景開發公司這個蔡永毅在這一個發生了這些事情的以後這個蔡永毅是我們兆豐的前總經理他竟然還有辦法什麼叫資深合夥人\n賴惠員\n賴惠員\n你看這張名片這個多諷刺啊部長那這樣子喔對於蔡永毅這個個人的一個情況我們會在會後再完全再做一個瞭解是不是跟委員做報告部長我跟你報告齁這個\n我們當官有名大家都知道你是非常好的一個財政部部長可是有沒有利你知道據說據說啦據說說這個蔡永毅目前坐的車子絕對是比你還高級每個月領的薪水絕對比你多還更多甚至\n在這個過程裡頭我們有沒有一套比較好的方式可以來管理這些公股銀行的這個董事長、監察人、經理人的一個監督的力道我們可不可以盤查後續任職單位是否跟公股銀行的一個借貸有什麼樣的一個關係你不能就是說他發生事情他退下來了以後然後就是這樣子\n賴惠員\n我們只能用背信去約束他們那你看出來每一件事情的皮肉都是這麼大所以就是要請各位就是對於這一個就是監督管理我們希望有信心可以把它就是整頓好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝賴惠員的質詢接著我們請李坤成委員質詢\n謝謝主席,我們請彭主委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.196 --> 00:19.802\n有 請 彭 主 委 、 莊 部 長 、 雷 董 還 有 謝 董 委 員 好 我 想 今 天 我 們 針 對 的 就 是 如 何 精 進 E S G 制 度 的 一 個 評 鑑 那 落 實 到 就 是 金 融 機 構 的 一 個\n\n00:21.142 --> 00:21.882\n新 城 鄉 大 火\n\n00:50.629 --> 01:16.779\n那 這 樣 子 的 一 個 大 火 發 生 的 時 候 那 你 們 如 何 去 處 理 就 是 說 亞 泥 發 生 了 這 一 些 問 題 那 反 應 就 是 說 你 如 何 去 監 督 他 的 企 業 的 一 個 環 保 問 題 哪 一 個 銀 行 ? 臺 銀 嗎 ? 臺 銀 臺 灣 銀 行 是 不 是 ? 那 我 們 是 不 是 請 請 董 事 長 說 明 好 嗎 ?\n\n01:23.566 --> 01:48.743\n是 不 是 請 委 員 可 以 再 指 教 的 問 題 因 為 我 正 好 在 討 論 就 是 針 對 的 就 是 亞 洲 水 泥 它 在 花 蓮 發 生 的 前 不 久 發 生 的 一 個 火 警 那 就 是 說 我 們 土 銀 你 是 它 最 大 的 一 個 連 帶 銀 行 你 怎 麼 樣 來 看 這 一 個 企 業 的 一 個 環 保 議 題 你 後 續 你 有 去 關 心 然 後 你 做 了 什 麼 樣 的 一 個 追 蹤 嗎\n\n01:50.029 --> 01:50.069\n怎 麼 樣 關 注 ?\n\n02:06.695 --> 02:23.203\n我 想 第 一 個 要 確 認 說 它 是 不 是 有 造 成 這 一 個 多 大 的 影 響 當 然 這 是 媒 體 報 導 但 是 這 一 個 那 你 有 沒 有 實 際 了 解 這 個 案 子 我 個 人 沒 有 實 際 了 解 對 不 起 那 你 下 面 有 沒 有 給 你 報 告 沒 有 所 以 你 也 不 管\n\n02:23.746 --> 02:24.327\n針 對 的 就 是 說 我 們 公 股 銀 行\n\n02:41.604 --> 02:57.541\n主 任 公 司 借 高 利 貸 的 這 個 社 會 責 任 的 一 個 問 題 那 在 這 裡 我 要 請 教 就 是 說 我 們 所 有 的 一 個 這 個 主 任 公 司 最 大 的 一 個 年 代 換 款 的 銀 行 就 是 我 們 的 土 地 銀 行 土 地 銀 行 董 事 長\n\n03:00.678 --> 03:20.186\n董 事 長 你 看 在 這 段 時 間 其 實 這 三 個 月 以 來 本 席 一 直 針 對 的 主 任 公 司 的 一 個 社 會 責 任 他 不 斷 的 製 造 太 多 的 一 個 社 會 問 題 不 是 銀 行 竟 然 就 是 說 可 以 做 最 大 的 最 大 的 一 個 那 個 高 利 貸 的 一 個 換 款\n\n03:21.286 --> 03:31.677\n那 甚 至 超 過 2 2 倍 那 這 樣 子 的 話 你 作 為 身 為 一 個 就 是 最 大 的 這 個 主 任 公 司 的 一 個 換 款 的 年 代 銀 行 你 怎 麼 樣 去 看 這 個 問 題 呢\n\n03:35.198 --> 03:58.202\n報 告 委 員 我 想 在 上 一 次 的 這 個 會 議 裡 頭 呢 我 有 跟 委 員 報 告 我 也 有 關 心 到 這 個 議 題 那 我 首 先 要 說 明 的 是 土 地 銀 行 貸 放 的 這 個 給 融 資 公 司 呢 其 實 它 大 部 分 的 資 金 呢 都 是 放 在 這 個 太 陽 能 跟 綠 色 的 一 個 電 廠 的 一 個 設 置 所 需 要 的 資 金 那 委 員 關 心 的 貸 後\n\n04:31.830 --> 04:36.014\n責 成 就 聽 起 來 好 像 他 們 也 保 證 啊 他 們 也 保 證 他 不 會 這 樣 做 董 事 長 怎 麼 樣 的 一 個 保 證 呢\n\n04:40.444 --> 05:08.156\n我 想 大 家 都 有 共 識 就 是 說 從 那 個 公 會 治 理 的 部 分 來 制 定 那 大 家 有 同 樣 的 一 個 遊 戲 規 則 那 他 們 一 定 會 嚴 守 好 我 跟 你 講 你 會 後 給 我 一 份 報 告 好 不 好 現 在 這 樣 子 講 起 來 還 是 非 常 的 一 個 空 那 大 家 也 聽 不 清 楚 那 就 是 說 其 實 我 們 的 時 間 也 有 限 來 趙 鳳 營 養 董 事 長 我 想 針 對 著 公 股 銀 行 如 何 反 映 企 業 的 公 司 化 的 一 個 管 理\n\n05:10.052 --> 05:38.531\n臺 北 天 空 塔 遭 到 掏 空 了 海 外 的 股 權 也 全 部 出 售 了 這 個 過 程 裡 頭 昨 天 最 新 的 新 聞 他 說 買 方 把 中 資 併 儲 了 可 是 在 這 之 前 的 時 候 我 們 作 為 一 個 臺 灣 的 第 二 高 樓 我 們 知 道 就 是 說 在 信 義 區 裡 頭 這 個 掏 空 了 1 0 億 錢 錢 厚 厚 不 曉 得 兆 豐 有 沒 有 特 別 去 注 意 到\n\n05:40.673 --> 06:07.750\n這 一 個 案 例 呢 跟 委 員 報 告 這 整 個 案 件 我 們 從 頭 到 尾 都 有 在 關 注 其 實 在 去 年 5 月 我 們 就 停 止 撥 款 因 為 這 個 案 子 其 實 他 是 一 直 在 蓋 只 是 那 個 股 東 之 間 的 一 個 紛 爭 所 以 造 成 一 些 就 是 有 一 點 到 底 股 權 是 在 哪 個 地 方 有 沒 有 賣 掉 有 沒 有 質 押 這 個 問 題 甚 至 中 資 的 問 題 但 是 我 們 去 年 就 已 經 掌 握 整 個 狀 況 停 止 撥 款 了\n\n06:09.151 --> 06:09.271\n財 政 部 莊 部 長\n\n06:33.465 --> 06:57.918\n我 們 前 兆 豐 的 一 個 董 事 長 蔡 友 才 蔡 友 才 我 想 這 個 他 的 一 個 那 個 就 是 這 個 掏 空 那 沒 有 掏 空 啦 那 個 是 他 等 於 是 我 們 在 紐 約 被 裁 罰 的 案 子 對 好 紐 約 被 裁 罰 的 案 子 是 所 以 跟 蔡 友 才 沒 有 關 係 嗎 現 在 就 當 我 們 也 在 追 究 責 任 那 為 什 麼 會 你 審 判 了 9 個 月 勒\n\n07:00.739 --> 07:28.499\n董 事 長 我 跟 你 講 沒 有 關 係 這 個 我 請 問 財 政 部 部 長 就 是 說 在 趙 鋒 前 董 事 長 蔡 友 才 的 這 個 案 子 裡 頭 趙 鋒 學 到 什 麼 樣 的 一 個 教 訓 你 有 沒 有 特 別 去 關 懷 這 個 議 題 呢 你 看 趙 鋒 為 了 這 個 案 子 就 是 說 我 們 里 裡 外 外 我 們 互 了 多 少 的 一 個 法 律 的 一 個 會 用 然 後 我 們 提 供 了 多 少 的 擔 保 品 給\n\n07:31.041 --> 07:44.373\n這 個 確 實 就 是 造 成 這 個 兆 豐 在 這 個 社 會 上 就 是 有 一 個 非 常 非 常 大 的 一 個 負 面 那 不 知 道 部 長 怎 麼 看 待 這 個 事 情 是 謝 謝 委 員 兆 豐 這 個 案 子 在 紐 約 分 行\n\n07:45.246 --> 07:58.581\n被 美 國 當 地 的 金 融 監 理 機 關 罰 款 那 罰 了 非 常 的 重 那 當 然 在 國 內 的 金 融 業 造 成 了 也 很 大 的 一 個 衝 擊 那 我 覺 得 這 個 是 一 個 教 訓 就 是 您 委 員 講 的 一 個 教 訓 從 這 個 經 驗 裡 面 我 們 認 為\n\n08:00.763 --> 08:05.949\n洗 錢 防 治 要 非 常 重 視 因 為 國 際 間 對 這 樣 的 一 個 作 業 都 非 常 重 要 都 非 常 重 視 另 外 洗 錢 防 治 我 們 在 尤 其 在 國 外 的 分 行 他 要 遵 照 當 地 的 金 融 法 規 要 非 常 重 視 這 個 第 二 個 必 須 要 找 第 三 方 的 驗 證 公 司 來 驗 證 我 們 沒 有 錯 沒 有 錯\n\n08:19.884 --> 08:39.267\n這 個 是 我 們 在 這 個 過 程 裡 頭 學 到 的 一 個 教 訓 我 給 你 看 到 一 張 名 片 這 個 是 一 個 開 發 公 司 盛 景 開 發 公 司 這 個 蔡 永 毅 在 這 一 個 發 生 了 這 些 事 情 的 以 後 這 個 蔡 永 毅 是 我 們 兆 豐 的 前 總 經 理 他 竟 然 還 有 辦 法 什 麼 叫 資 深 合 夥 人\n\n08:40.120 --> 08:40.140\n賴 惠 員\n\n09:10.701 --> 09:10.721\n賴 惠 員\n\n09:27.179 --> 09:40.333\n你 看 這 張 名 片 這 個 多 諷 刺 啊 部 長 那 這 樣 子 喔 對 於 蔡 永 毅 這 個 個 人 的 一 個 情 況 我 們 會 在 會 後 再 完 全 再 做 一 個 瞭 解 是 不 是 跟 委 員 做 報 告 部 長 我 跟 你 報 告 齁 這 個\n\n09:42.535 --> 10:04.362\n我 們 當 官 有 名 大 家 都 知 道 你 是 非 常 好 的 一 個 財 政 部 部 長 可 是 有 沒 有 利 你 知 道 據 說 據 說 啦 據 說 說 這 個 蔡 永 毅 目 前 坐 的 車 子 絕 對 是 比 你 還 高 級 每 個 月 領 的 薪 水 絕 對 比 你 多 還 更 多 甚 至\n\n10:06.983 --> 10:31.150\n在 這 個 過 程 裡 頭 我 們 有 沒 有 一 套 比 較 好 的 方 式 可 以 來 管 理 這 些 公 股 銀 行 的 這 個 董 事 長 、 監 察 人 、 經 理 人 的 一 個 監 督 的 力 道 我 們 可 不 可 以 盤 查 後 續 任 職 單 位 是 否 跟 公 股 銀 行 的 一 個 借 貸 有 什 麼 樣 的 一 個 關 係 你 不 能 就 是 說 他 發 生 事 情 他 退 下 來 了 以 後 然 後 就 是 這 樣 子\n\n10:31.570 --> 10:31.590\n賴 惠 員\n\n10:53.320 --> 11:09.829\n我 們 只 能 用 背 信 去 約 束 他 們 那 你 看 出 來 每 一 件 事 情 的 皮 肉 都 是 這 麼 大 所 以 就 是 要 請 各 位 就 是 對 於 這 一 個 就 是 監 督 管 理 我 們 希 望 有 信 心 可 以 把 它 就 是 整 頓 好 謝 謝 謝 謝 委 員 謝 謝 賴 惠 員 的 質 詢 接 著 我 們 請 李 坤 成 委 員 質 詢\n\n11:22.126 --> 11:23.553\n謝 謝 主 席 , 我 們 請 彭 主 委\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.196,"end":19.802,"text":"有請彭主委、莊部長、雷董還有謝董委員好我想今天我們針對的就是如何精進ESG制度的一個評鑑那落實到就是金融機構的一個"},{"start":21.142,"end":21.882,"text":"新城鄉大火"},{"start":50.629,"end":76.779,"text":"那這樣子的一個大火發生的時候那你們如何去處理就是說亞泥發生了這一些問題那反應就是說你如何去監督他的企業的一個環保問題哪一個銀行?臺銀嗎?臺銀臺灣銀行是不是?那我們是不是請請董事長說明好嗎?"},{"start":83.566,"end":108.743,"text":"是不是請委員可以再指教的問題因為我正好在討論就是針對的就是亞洲水泥它在花蓮發生的前不久發生的一個火警那就是說我們土銀你是它最大的一個連帶銀行你怎麼樣來看這一個企業的一個環保議題你後續你有去關心然後你做了什麼樣的一個追蹤嗎"},{"start":110.029,"end":110.069,"text":"怎麼樣關注?"},{"start":126.695,"end":143.203,"text":"我想第一個要確認說它是不是有造成這一個多大的影響當然這是媒體報導但是這一個那你有沒有實際了解這個案子我個人沒有實際了解對不起那你下面有沒有給你報告沒有所以你也不管"},{"start":143.746,"end":144.327,"text":"針對的就是說我們公股銀行"},{"start":161.604,"end":177.541,"text":"主任公司借高利貸的這個社會責任的一個問題那在這裡我要請教就是說我們所有的一個這個主任公司最大的一個年代換款的銀行就是我們的土地銀行土地銀行董事長"},{"start":180.678,"end":200.186,"text":"董事長你看在這段時間其實這三個月以來本席一直針對的主任公司的一個社會責任他不斷的製造太多的一個社會問題不是銀行竟然就是說可以做最大的最大的一個那個高利貸的一個換款"},{"start":201.286,"end":211.677,"text":"那甚至超過22倍那這樣子的話你作為身為一個就是最大的這個主任公司的一個換款的年代銀行你怎麼樣去看這個問題呢"},{"start":215.198,"end":238.202,"text":"報告委員我想在上一次的這個會議裡頭呢我有跟委員報告我也有關心到這個議題那我首先要說明的是土地銀行貸放的這個給融資公司呢其實它大部分的資金呢都是放在這個太陽能跟綠色的一個電廠的一個設置所需要的資金那委員關心的貸後"},{"start":242.483,"end":271.186,"text":"貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸"},{"start":271.83,"end":276.014,"text":"責成就聽起來好像他們也保證啊他們也保證他不會這樣做董事長 怎麼樣的一個保證呢"},{"start":280.444,"end":308.156,"text":"我想大家都有共識就是說從那個公會治理的部分來制定那大家有同樣的一個遊戲規則那他們一定會嚴守好我跟你講你會後給我一份報告好不好現在這樣子講起來還是非常的一個空那大家也聽不清楚那就是說其實我們的時間也有限來趙鳳營養董事長我想針對著公股銀行如何反映企業的公司化的一個管理"},{"start":310.052,"end":338.531,"text":"臺北天空塔遭到掏空了海外的股權也全部出售了這個過程裡頭昨天最新的新聞他說買方把中資併儲了可是在這之前的時候我們作為一個臺灣的第二高樓我們知道就是說在信義區裡頭這個掏空了10億錢錢厚厚不曉得兆豐有沒有特別去注意到"},{"start":340.673,"end":367.75,"text":"這一個案例呢跟委員報告這整個案件我們從頭到尾都有在關注其實在去年5月我們就停止撥款因為這個案子其實他是一直在蓋只是那個股東之間的一個紛爭所以造成一些就是有一點到底股權是在哪個地方有沒有賣掉有沒有質押這個問題甚至中資的問題但是我們去年就已經掌握整個狀況停止撥款了"},{"start":369.151,"end":369.271,"text":"財政部莊部長"},{"start":393.465,"end":417.918,"text":"我們前兆豐的一個董事長蔡友才蔡友才我想這個他的一個那個就是這個掏空那沒有掏空啦那個是他等於是我們在紐約被裁罰的案子對好紐約被裁罰的案子是所以跟蔡友才沒有關係嗎現在就當我們也在追究責任那為什麼會你審判了9個月勒"},{"start":420.739,"end":448.499,"text":"董事長我跟你講沒有關係這個我請問財政部部長就是說在趙鋒前董事長蔡友才的這個案子裡頭趙鋒學到什麼樣的一個教訓你有沒有特別去關懷這個議題呢你看趙鋒為了這個案子就是說我們里裡外外我們互了多少的一個法律的一個會用然後我們提供了多少的擔保品給"},{"start":451.041,"end":464.373,"text":"這個確實就是造成這個兆豐在這個社會上就是有一個非常非常大的一個負面那不知道部長怎麼看待這個事情是謝謝委員兆豐這個案子在紐約分行"},{"start":465.246,"end":478.581,"text":"被美國當地的金融監理機關罰款那罰了非常的重那當然在國內的金融業造成了也很大的一個衝擊那我覺得這個是一個教訓就是您委員講的一個教訓從這個經驗裡面我們認為"},{"start":480.763,"end":485.949,"text":"洗錢防治要非常重視因為國際間對這樣的一個作業都非常重要都非常重視另外洗錢防治我們在尤其在國外的分行他要遵照當地的金融法規要非常重視這個第二個必須要找第三方的驗證公司來驗證我們沒有錯沒有錯"},{"start":499.884,"end":519.267,"text":"這個是我們在這個過程裡頭學到的一個教訓我給你看到一張名片這個是一個開發公司盛景開發公司這個蔡永毅在這一個發生了這些事情的以後這個蔡永毅是我們兆豐的前總經理他竟然還有辦法什麼叫資深合夥人"},{"start":520.12,"end":520.14,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":550.701,"end":550.721,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":567.179,"end":580.333,"text":"你看這張名片這個多諷刺啊部長那這樣子喔對於蔡永毅這個個人的一個情況我們會在會後再完全再做一個瞭解是不是跟委員做報告部長我跟你報告齁這個"},{"start":582.535,"end":604.362,"text":"我們當官有名大家都知道你是非常好的一個財政部部長可是有沒有利你知道據說據說啦據說說這個蔡永毅目前坐的車子絕對是比你還高級每個月領的薪水絕對比你多還更多甚至"},{"start":606.983,"end":631.15,"text":"在這個過程裡頭我們有沒有一套比較好的方式可以來管理這些公股銀行的這個董事長、監察人、經理人的一個監督的力道我們可不可以盤查後續任職單位是否跟公股銀行的一個借貸有什麼樣的一個關係你不能就是說他發生事情他退下來了以後然後就是這樣子"},{"start":631.57,"end":631.59,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":653.32,"end":669.829,"text":"我們只能用背信去約束他們那你看出來每一件事情的皮肉都是這麼大所以就是要請各位就是對於這一個就是監督管理我們希望有信心可以把它就是整頓好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝賴惠員的質詢接著我們請李坤成委員質詢"},{"start":682.126,"end":683.553,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請彭主委"}]}}}}