{"id":153380,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153380","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebab3ae82e2cf938cb7ea2e07370b40154b446d6a815e91374412503edbb8ed725a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:16:27 - 11:32:12","影片長度":"00:15:45","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:16:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:32:12+08:00","duration":945,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時16分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：呂次長。"],["劉委員建國：先恭喜呂建德次長接任衛福部次長，次長應該都有掌握對衛環委員會召開的一些相關會議和相關業務，都清楚吧？"],["呂次長建德：是，趕快在進入狀況、在學習。"],["劉委員建國：你知道3月28日衛環委員會排什麼專案報告嗎？"],["呂次長建德：3月28日？"],["劉委員建國：對，你不是進入狀況了嗎？"],["呂次長建德：不好意思，委員，那時我還沒有就任。"],["劉委員建國：那時當然你還沒有來，你是520以後才來的。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：我問你是否進入狀況，你說有，你有掌握衛環委員會召開的相關會議嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我在努力學習當中。"],["劉委員建國：學習和掌握是兩回事。"],["呂次長建德：是，真的是。"],["劉委員建國：那天召開社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進做法的專案報告，次長知道當時那是為什麼事件召開的嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我知道，是新北剴剴案件。"],["劉委員建國：那時我在這個委員會質詢薛前部長：就發現有滿多缺失亟需改善，其中一個最大的缺失是對於剴剴案這種特殊家庭的小朋友，衛福部原有定直轄市、縣（市）政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則，這個原則有三項規定：第一個，建議並至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之居托人員名單；第二個，提供居托人員照顧家外安置兒童相關專業訓練；第三個，訓練課程建置包括安置個案類型、創傷經驗及問題的輔導。都有這樣的原則把關，最後還是有剴剴案的悲劇發生，原因出在什麼地方？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這裡面大概有幾個部分，一個是社工同仁對於這部分的認知，還有整個收出養制度的完善，另外一個是中央和地方的相關協調、橫向的聯繫。"],["劉委員建國：主席，時間是否可以暫停一下，因為我要放簡報放不出來，今天沒有辦法放嗎？"],["主席：前面都可以。"],["劉委員建國：對不起！好，謝謝。我當時看到的是臺北市政府覺得他的安置資源充足，所以不需要照這個處理原則處理，所以才會發生這個憾事，那時候薛部長也很生氣，但生氣也沒有用，然後導致臺北市沒有這樣的名單，硬要跨區到沒有建置到家外安置的托育人員的臺北市，所以一步一步的將剴剴推向死亡的結局，也因此社家署有經過檢討，在4月30日又公布直轄市、縣（市）政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引，要來強化居家托育服務的訪視工作。但是這個工作指引會不會又變成臺北市還是哪一個縣市覺得自己的資源足夠或怎麼樣，又不遵照這個指引了，那你們怎麼處理？你們怎麼處理？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，大概有兩個重點，目前社家署已經要求各個地方政府對於相關流程更精進化；另外，剛剛委員有提到，我們社工同仁目前這個部分的兒虐相關方面知能，也在在職訓練時予以強化。還有，其實目前我們也增加訪視的頻率。"],["劉委員建國：署長，你請坐啦，你站在那邊，我覺得很難過，好像我在懲罰你。","次長，因為有定原則，地方政府就不照這樣辦理了，你現在訂了指引，他如果又不照這樣做，他覺得他資源夠、不需要，萬一又發生事情了會怎麼樣？你們又在那邊震怒，震怒有用嗎？已經又丟掉一條人命了，還是發生悲劇。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，目前已經通過社安網2.0，之前在林萬億林政委指導之下，我們現在有人力倍增計畫。還有另外一個就是像委員剛剛所說的，我們現在也會訂頒地方政府處理原則，類似CDC對於登革熱到某一個程度，多少案例以下，地方政府有處理的權責和SOP，什麼時候是屬於中央政府的權責。關於這些，我們在社安網2.0都有訂相關指引。"],["劉委員建國：現在不是只有衛福部的社家署遇到這個問題，連食藥署之前也遇到蘇丹紅事件，之前衛福部針對食品也有訂定相關手冊。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：這個手冊早已經被新的要點取代了，地方政府後來拿著手冊跟中央argue。所以當我們訂原則、訂指引，如果地方政府不遵守的話，你們怎麼處理？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在有社福績效考核，如果他不符合，那對不起，可能以後補助的分數會低。"],["劉委員建國：只有這樣的手段而已？"],["呂次長建德：當然不光這樣。其實我們還有另外一些政策工具，社安網對於地方的社工也有補助，人力的部分，我們恐怕……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係啦，我就是希望新的次長到位，這樣的事情不要再發生。如果要預防發生，可能相關的手段要非常的明確，讓地方政府知道，原則定好、指引定好，你就照這樣，如果不照這樣，你就會怎麼樣。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯！"],["劉委員建國：對不對？這樣就很清楚，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：次長剛來沒多久，我就給你到這個會期結束前，是不是把這些相關的機制建設好，給委員會作參考，好不好？謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：當然，是、好的。"],["劉委員建國：第二件事情講到社工的問題，要凸顯的問題還是社工人力荒。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：依照衛福部的資料，22個縣市的社工需求將近4,200人，現在進用差不多3,700人左右，進用率不到九成。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、對。"],["劉委員建國：尤其新北市需求人數最高，進用率也只有七成一。同時我這邊有一個資料，五年內臺灣社工需求高達4,185人，但是現在每年願意投入到社工師行業才685人，我算起來不到八成，685乘以5再除以4,185，絕對不到八成喔，越來越少嘛。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：現在又依據臺灣社會工作教育學會在109年所作的調查，只到109年，因為我後面調不到資料。社工系總計招收的學生，碩士、博士有3,081人，3,000人初頭，但現在每年投入社工師職場的才六百多人，也就是差不多25%左右，剩下75%的人不投入這個職場，什麼原因？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我自己也在大學教書，這大概主要有三個原因，一個是教、考、訓、用彼此間的接合問題。第二個最重要的還是剛剛委員所說的，社工本身的薪資勞動條件，薪資的部分，目前社安網2.0已經有社工倍增策略。委員當然會問倍增的誘因是什麼，誘因有二個部分，一是薪資，現在公部門的薪資已經有提高；在私部門，我們現在也有相關補助。","另外，我們現在會加強社工系學生在大三、大四的時候就可以到我們的機關來實習，透過實習的方式，多管齊下，趕快提高進用率。"],["劉委員建國：職業環境、薪資嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：次長應該很清楚，我們的社工服務人口比例是多少？一比幾？"],["呂次長建德：如果沒有記錯的話，是1235。"],["劉委員建國：1235嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，1235。"],["劉委員建國：那日本多少？"],["呂次長建德：我如果沒記錯，日本應該是845。"],["劉委員建國：1：845？"],["呂次長建德：日本845。"],["劉委員建國：韓國呢？"],["呂次長建德：韓國……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係啦，就這樣討論，我們不是故意要給次長考試。"],["呂次長建德：如果沒記錯，韓國比我們略好一點，大概一千多吧。"],["劉委員建國：一千多？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：對不起，我這邊的資料是不是有錯誤，就請次長再double check。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：你剛才講日本是一比八百多，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：845。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊是1：436。"],["呂次長建德：喔，是這樣啊。"],["劉委員建國：你剛剛說韓國是一比一千多嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊是1：289。"],["呂次長建德：韓國？"],["劉委員建國：對！香港是1：412。"],["呂次長建德：韓國我可能……"],["劉委員建國：如果我的數據錯，馬上提出來。"],["呂次長建德：是不是可以允許我們後續再提供？"],["劉委員建國：我講這樣啦，臺灣就是一比一千二百多。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：跟你的數據差不多喔，你是1235，我是1249。"],["呂次長建德：對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：所以我底下這些數據應該也不會有多大的落差。"],["呂次長建德：好，OK。"],["劉委員建國：可是剛剛聽次長講，落差是蠻大的。如果是這樣的職場環境，怎麼會好？對不對？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：畢業的學生，博士、碩士怎麼會願意投入？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：即便薪資再提高，我覺得短時間內要把這些人力補足，有困難！所以我們召委在排的時候，特別要求勞動部長，對於外國人士就業服務法第四十六條第一項第一款至第六款工作資格審查的標準，希望在一個月內也讓外國具有相關資格的對象，都可以投入這個職場，把人力補足。但是補足的時候，如果臺灣的服務比例與鄰近國家落差值這麼大，這整個工作職場環境就是不允許社工師持續在臺灣待下去，所以我才會提出這個數據給次長參考。","如果這些相關數據有什麼問題，沒關係，大家可以討論。但是我在這邊要具體要求，次長，一個月內，就是你所講的薪資還有職場的環境怎麼改善，而且服務比例如何降低，才是真正達到解決社工人力荒，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["劉委員建國：一個月內，這個我就要求時間要比較快一點。"],["呂次長建德：我們提供報告，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：就是一個月內提供報告，我沒有說要馬上去做。"],["呂次長建德：一個月內可以，好。"],["劉委員建國：這是第一件事情。","最後，我要呼應召委今天講的主題，我覺得這個事情還是真的必須要討論。"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["劉委員建國：但是是這個樣子，我講「但是」兩個字，就是為什麼，不是但是又無奈。臺灣的政治環境，一直到現在就是很奇怪，一國就是好幾制，但是當地方政府首長要去展現對65歲以上不管什麼樣態的長輩，讓他們減輕一些相關的負擔，這個方向絕對是正確，毋庸置疑，但是到底要不要有一致的標準，不要有城鄉的落差，不要有縣市之間的差異。","我看到的資料，65歲的臺北市老人綜合所得稅率未達20%；臺南市65歲以上領有中度、輕度身心障礙手冊，且經稅捐機關核定最近一年綜合所得稅率未達12%；臺中市綜合所得稅率5%以下……，這是六都的狀況，完全沒有一致性。當完全沒有一致性的情況之下，現在全國是22個縣市，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：六都就有六個版本，22個縣市扣掉六都，是不是變成17個版本、17個樣態？坦白說，也不為過啦。不為過的情況之下，中央主管健保的單位，主管機關要怎麼處理？要怎麼因應？我覺得要面對啦！要處理啦！","地方政府為什麼有這個底氣，願意讓65歲以上的長輩免除健保費的負擔？但是相對的，他有這個底氣，其實這幾年不是只有中央超徵，地方政府相關的稅收也有超徵，所以願意來做這些事情，我覺得要鼓勵。要鼓勵到最後要有一致性，真的要好好地盤點，好好地做一些資料的調查，是時候了。部長回來之後，次長是不是就可以跟部長討論，給他一些意見，甚至也把主計單位找過來，中央補助地方，包括相關的專案計畫，還有統籌分配稅款的試算方法，是不是要一併做一些大調整了？我覺得這真的要思考，可以吧，次長？"],["呂次長建德：我覺得委員真的很有心，部長從日內瓦回來之後，我會跟部長報告，把委員的意見提供給他。但是我也要強調，資源真的非常有限，我們是不是要用在刀口上？應該幫助的，政府一定責無旁貸，真的有需要、真的很艱苦的人，政府一定全力負擔。我跟委員報告，70歲以上的中低收入戶，現在其實是中央政府全部補助。"],["劉委員建國：對，這是從以前到現在一直都是這樣施行的嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：是啦，是啦。"],["劉委員建國：對於低收入戶，不管是不是65歲，其實全部都是由政府吸收，就是福保。"],["呂次長建德：對、對，70歲以上，沒有錯。"],["劉委員建國：這包含65歲以上的老人，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：中低收。"],["劉委員建國：中低收跟低收嘛。"],["呂次長建德：因為他們生活艱苦，真的有需要。"],["劉委員建國：是啊、是啊、是啊。這些不管70歲或是福保的人全部扣除掉，反正我們要進入超高齡國家，明年就到了，年底就有可能達標了。"],["呂次長建德：現在是18.6%。"],["劉委員建國：對，有可能今年年底，現在才5月。"],["呂次長建德：現在一年大概增加20萬的長輩。"],["劉委員建國：是啊。現在有四百多萬人，四百多萬人扣掉70歲以上的中低收老人、扣掉福保，剩多少人？大家來檢討嘛。"],["呂次長建德：OK，好、好。"],["劉委員建國：好不好？謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉建國委員。接下來請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153380","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153380","tool":"pyannote","id":"153380-pyannote"},"job_id":"Mn2KkxLDZWSZvNmK","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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12:13:49","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 12:15:08","msg":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153380 already downloaded"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:15:08","msg":"running whisperx with  --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）\n發言委員：劉建國'"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:15:37","msg":"merging result"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:15:37","msg":"status: done"}],"result":{"json":"{\"segments\": [{\"start\": 5.435, \"end\": 10.41, \"text\": \"好,謝謝主席。有請部長,呃,社長。要升官了。來,理事長。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 5.435, \"end\": 5.616, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 5.616, \"end\": 5.776, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": 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文 修 正 草 案 ． 則 不 予 審 查 閱 讀 委 員 黃 健 豪 等 1 9 人 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 ． 則 不 予 審 查 閱 讀\n\n5\n00:01:17,761 --> 00:01:46,193\n市 長 當 時 知 道 那 是 為 了 什 麼 事 件 召 開 嗎 ? 我 知 道 , 就 是 現 在 那 個 新 北 , 那 個 凱 凱 的 那 個 案 。 那 時 候 我 在 諮 詢 , 也 在 這 個 委 員 會 諮 詢 學 前 部 長 , 就 發 現 這 個 有 蠻 多 缺 失 的 , 急 需 要 來 改 善 。 那 其 中 一 個 最 大 的 缺 失 是 , 這 個 針 對 凱 凱 案 有 特 殊 家 庭 的 小 朋 友 未 付 原 有 訂 這 個 直 轄 市 縣 市 政 府 運 用 居 家 托 育 人 員 照 顧 家 外 安 置 ,\n\n6\n00:01:46,693 --> 00:02:06,080\n而 統 處 理 的 原 則 。 那 在 這 個 原 則 有 些 規 定 有 三 項 。 第 一 個 就 是 說 建 議 病 至 少 每 六 個 月 盤 點 適 合 照 顧 安 置 個 案 之 居 托 的 人 員 名 單 。 第 二 個 提 供 居 托 人 員 照 顧 家 外 安 置 兒 童 相 關 專 業 訓 練 。 第 三 個 訓 練 課 程 建 制 包 括 安 置 個 案 類 型 創 傷 階 級 問 題 的 輔 導 。\n\n7\n00:02:10,322 --> 00:02:17,181\n都 有 這 樣 的 原 則 把 關 。 那 最 後 還 是 凱 凱 案 的 悲 劇 發 生 。 這 原 因 出 在 什 麼 地 方 ?\n\n8\n00:02:18,626 --> 00:02:20,408\n主 席 , 時 間 是 不 是 可 以 暫 停 一 下 , 因 為 我 要 放 那 個 放 不 出 來 。\n\n9\n00:02:52,733 --> 00:03:14,244\n我 是 這 樣 啦 齁 , 我 當 時 看 待 是 說 因 為 台 北 市 政 府 覺 得 他 的 安 置 資 源 是 充 足 啦 齁 所 以 就 不 需 要 照 這 個 處 理 原 則 來 處 理 啦 所 以 才 發 生 這 個 憾 事 齁 那 時 候 薛 副 委 員 生 氣 啦 齁 生 氣 就 沒 有 用 啦 然 後 導 致 這 個 台 北 市 沒 有 這 樣 的 名 單\n\n10\n00:03:15,384 --> 00:03:38,304\n那 也 硬 要 誇 區 到 這 個 沒 有 建 制 到 家 外 安 置 的 托 育 人 員 的 台 北 市 。 所 以 一 步 一 步 把 這 個 凱 凱 推 向 死 亡 的 這 樣 的 一 個 結 局 。 也 因 此 啦 齁 , 世 家 署 有 經 過 檢 討 。 所 以 他 在 4 月 3 0 又 公 布 了 一 個 叫 做 自 家 縣 市 的 政 府 居 家 托 育 服 務 中 心 訪 視 工 作 指 引 。 要 來 強 化 這 個 居 家 托 育 的 服 務 的 這 個 訪 視 工 作 。\n\n11\n00:03:39,665 --> 00:03:57,006\n但 是 這 個 工 作 指 引 會 不 會 又 變 成 臺 北 市 還 是 哪 一 個 縣 市 覺 得 他 自 己 支 援 足 夠 或 怎 麼 樣 又 不 遵 照 這 個 指 引 了 那 你 們 怎 麼 處 理 ? 你 們 怎 麼 處 理 ? 報 告 委 員 大 概 兩 個 鐘 . . . 大 概 兩 個 鐘 . . . 我 們 現 在 目 前 都 已 經 社 交 署 這 邊 已 經 有 要 求\n\n12\n00:03:57,346 --> 00:03:57,486\n﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚\n\n13\n00:04:24,981 --> 00:04:25,001\n﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚\n\n14\n00:04:47,003 --> 00:05:03,391\n那 之 前 在 那 個 林 正 偉 他 那 邊 的 一 個 指 導 之 下 我 們 現 在 目 前 的 整 個 這 一 個 人 力 上 面 我 們 現 在 目 前 會 來 有 一 個 倍 增 計 畫 還 有 另 外 一 個 就 是 說 您 剛 剛 像 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 我 們 現 在 也 會 定 班 就 是 說 這 一 個 他 的 整 個 這 個 地 方 政 府 他 們 的 整 個 處 理 原 則\n\n15\n00:05:03,871 --> 00:05:03,891\n﹚ 劉 建 國\n\n16\n00:05:21,179 --> 00:05:44,772\n現 在 不 是 只 有 我 們 社 交 組 或 部 的 社 交 組 遇 到 這 個 問 題 。 連 社 交 組 也 遇 到 之 前 的 蘇 丹 隆 事 件 , 也 有 相 關 之 前 我 們 針 對 食 品 的 相 關 的 手 冊 沒 有 確 定 。 這 個 手 冊 早 已 經 被 要 點 , 新 的 要 點 取 代 了 。 那 地 方 政 府 後 來 拿 了 這 個 手 冊 來 跟 對 方 在 那 邊 , 跟 我 們 對 方 在 那 邊 a r g u e 。\n\n17\n00:05:44,952 --> 00:06:07,002\n我 覺 得 這 個 事 情 , 所 以 當 我 們 定 原 則 , 當 我 們 定 職 員 , 如 果 地 方 政 府 不 遵 守 的 話 , 你 們 怎 麼 處 理 嗎 ? 報 告 委 員 , 我 們 現 在 目 前 就 是 說 , 我 們 有 那 個 社 福 考 核 , 績 效 考 核 , 那 他 如 果 說 那 個 不 符 合 的 話 對 不 對 , 那 對 不 起 , 那 我 們 的 可 能 以 後 的 整 個 補 助 上 面 來 , 分 數 會 低 。 只 有 這 樣 的 手 段 而 已 ?\n\n18\n00:06:07,162 --> 00:06:07,342\n﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑\n\n19\n00:06:23,884 --> 00:06:24,505\n﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑\n\n20\n00:06:38,793 --> 00:06:40,496\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ．\n\n21\n00:06:54,255 --> 00:07:19,941\n所 以 依 照 衛 部 的 資 料 2 2 個 縣 市 的 施 工 需 求 是 將 近 四 千 兩 百 人 現 在 禁 用 差 不 多 三 千 七 左 右 , 禁 用 率 不 到 九 成 尤 其 縣 北 市 的 需 求 人 數 最 高 , 它 的 禁 用 率 也 只 有 七 成 一 那 同 時 我 這 邊 有 一 個 資 料 就 是 五 年 內 台 灣 的 社 工 需 求 又 高 達 四 千 一 百 八 十 五 但 是 現 在 每 年 願 意 投 入 到 社 工 師 的 行 列 每 年 才 六 百 八 十 五 , 我 把 它 算 起 來 不 到 八 成\n\n22\n00:07:20,521 --> 00:07:21,021\n﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚\n\n23\n00:07:44,867 --> 00:08:14,154\n也 就 是 差 不 多 2 5 % 左 右 剩 下 7 5 % 他 不 投 入 這 個 職 場 裡 面 什 麼 原 因 ? 包 括 委 員 大 概 我 想 主 要 三 個 部 分 因 為 我 自 己 也 在 大 學 裡 面 教 書 了 那 大 概 有 三 個 部 分 一 個 是 教 考 訓 練 這 個 B 之 間 的 整 個 結 合 問 題 另 外 第 二 個 其 實 最 重 要 還 是 剛 剛 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 社 工 他 自 己 本 身 的 薪 資 、 勞 動 條 件 的 部 分 那 薪 資 的 部 分 我 們 現 在 目 前 在 社 安 網 2 . 0 我 們 之 前 已 經 也 已 經 有 一 個 相 關 我 們 有 一 個 社 工 倍 增 策 略\n\n24\n00:08:14,994 --> 00:08:44,217\n議 員 當 然 說 , 你 被 徵 的 問 題 也 誘 因 。 誘 因 的 部 分 我 們 現 在 就 有 兩 個 部 分 , 薪 資 。 薪 資 的 部 分 我 們 公 部 門 薪 資 我 們 現 在 目 前 已 經 有 提 高 。 另 外 第 二 個 是 在 私 部 門 的 話 , 我 們 又 有 一 個 整 個 這 一 個 相 關 的 整 個 這 個 補 助 。 那 另 外 一 個 就 是 說 , 我 們 現 在 會 加 強 你 這 個 社 工 系 的 學 生 在 大 三 、 大 四 的 時 候 , 你 就 可 以 到 我 們 的 機 關 裡 面 做 實 習 。 用 實 習 的 方 式 , 那 透 過 這 個 方 式 我 們 就 可 以 這 個 多 館 來 進 行 , 來 趕 快 提 供 來 提 高 他 的 這 一 個 金 融 率 。\n\n25\n00:08:45,357 --> 00:09:09,723\n職 業 環 境 , 薪 資 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 是 , 沒 錯 。 那 自 然 應 該 很 清 楚 。 我 們 的 一 個 社 工 服 務 的 人 口 比 例 是 多 少 ? 一 比 幾 ? 如 果 我 沒 有 記 錯 , 大 概 一 、 二 、 三 。 一 、 二 、 三 、 五 。 一 、 二 、 三 、 五 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 對 , 沒 錯 。 一 、 二 、 三 、 五 。 那 日 本 多 少 ? 日 本 我 都 沒 記 錯 , 應 該 八 、 四 、 五 。 如 果 我 沒 有 記 錯 。 一 比 八 、 四 、 五 。 八 、 四 、 五 。 日 本 。 那 韓 國 呢 ?\n\n26\n00:09:12,508 --> 00:09:38,442\n韓 國 ﹚ 沒 關 係 , 就 這 樣 討 論 , 我 們 不 是 要 故 意 跟 次 長 發 生 ﹚ 如 果 韓 國 沒 有 記 錯 的 話 , 大 概 他 比 我 們 略 好 一 點 , 大 概 一 ﹑ 如 果 沒 記 錯 他 一 零 一 零 二 多 吧 ﹑ 一 零 二 多 ﹑ 對 , 韓 國 ﹑ 對 不 起 , 我 這 邊 資 料 是 不 是 有 錯 誤 ﹑ 就 請 部 長 再 d o u b l e c h e c k ﹑ 好 ﹑ 你 剛 才 講 是 日 本 是 一 比 八 百 多 嘛 對 不 對 ﹑ 八 四 五 ﹑ 我 這 邊 是 一 比 四 三 六 ﹑ 喔 , 這 樣 喔 ﹑ 好 ﹑ 好 ﹑ 那 你 剛 剛 講 韓 國 是 一 比 一 零 多 嘛 ﹑ 對 ﹑ 一 千 多 嘛 ﹑ 對 ﹑ 我 這 邊 是 一 比 二 八 九 ﹑\n\n27\n00:09:41,026 --> 00:09:46,593\n韓 國 ? 對 。 香 港 是 1 比 4 1 喔 。 韓 國 我 可 能 . . . 好 , 如 果 我 的 數 據 錯 馬 上 提 出 來 啊 。\n\n28\n00:09:47,981 --> 00:10:13,144\n我 們 是 不 是 可 以 允 許 我 後 續 ? 對 , 我 講 這 樣 啦 , 我 講 這 樣 , 你 看 台 灣 就 是 一 比 一 二 多 。 對 , 沒 錯 。 我 這 邊 是 一 , 跟 你 的 數 據 差 不 多 喔 。 你 是 一 二 三 五 , 我 是 一 二 四 九 啦 。 對 , 對 , 對 。 所 以 應 該 我 底 下 這 個 數 據 應 該 也 不 會 有 多 大 的 落 差 啦 。 好 , O K 。 但 是 剛 剛 聽 市 長 講 是 落 差 是 蠻 大 的 。 是 , 是 。 那 如 果 這 樣 的 市 場 環 境 怎 麼 會 好 ? 沒 錯 。 對 不 對 ? 畢 業 的 學 生 、 婆 士 、 碩 士 怎 麼 願 意 來 投 入 ? 是 。\n\n29\n00:10:13,484 --> 00:10:13,504\n﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚\n\n30\n00:10:43,724 --> 00:11:12,381\n要 比 鄰 近 國 家 落 差 值 這 麼 大 這 整 個 公 共 職 場 環 境 他 就 是 叫 你 社 區 公 司 不 允 許 你 在 台 灣 持 續 再 待 下 去 所 以 我 才 會 提 供 這 個 數 據 來 給 市 長 做 參 考 如 果 說 我 是 最 相 關 出 去 數 據 有 什 麼 問 題 沒 關 係 可 以 大 家 就 做 討 論 但 是 我 在 這 邊 要 具 體 要 求 市 長 一 個 月 內 就 處 理 你 所 講 的 薪 資 還 有 這 個 職 場 的 環 境 怎 麼 去 做 改 善 而 且 服 務 的 比 例 如 何 去 降 低 才 是 真 正 的\n\n31\n00:11:13,142 --> 00:11:13,503\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查\n\n32\n00:11:20,797 --> 00:11:44,247\n我 們 提 供 報 告 好 不 好 ? 就 是 一 個 月 提 供 報 告 了 。 我 沒 有 說 你 馬 上 要 怎 麼 去 做 了 。 最 後 我 要 呼 應 昭 偉 講 的 今 天 這 個 主 題 。 我 覺 得 這 個 事 情 還 是 真 的 必 須 要 討 論 。 但 是 是 這 個 樣 子 。 我 講 的 但 是 兩 個 字 就 是 為 什 麼 ? 不 是 但 是 又 無 奈 。 台 灣 的 政 治 環 境 一 直 到 現 在 就 是 很 奇 怪 。 一 國 就 是 好 幾 次 。\n\n33\n00:11:45,287 --> 00:12:03,785\n但 是 當 地 方 政 府 首 長 他 要 去 展 現 他 對 6 5 歲 以 上 的 不 管 什 麼 樣 態 的 這 些 長 輩 讓 他 們 減 輕 相 關 的 一 些 負 擔 這 個 方 向 絕 對 是 正 確 無 庸 置 疑 但 是 到 底 要 不 要 要 不 要 要 不 要 有 一 次 的 標 準\n\n34\n00:12:04,426 --> 00:12:32,314\n不 要 有 城 鄉 的 落 差 不 要 有 縣 市 之 間 的 差 異 有 的 就 像 這 是 我 看 到 的 資 料 這 6 5 歲 的 台 北 市 的 老 人 綜 合 所 得 稅 率 未 達 2 0 % 那 台 南 市 離 我 中 渡 6 5 歲 以 上 中 渡 親 渡 身 心 障 礙 所 涉 且 經 稅 監 機 關 核 定 最 近 一 年 綜 合 所 得 稅 未 達 1 2 % 然 後 台 中 市 綜 合 所 得 稅 稅 率 5 % 以 下 大 大 大 大 這 是 六 都\n\n35\n00:12:33,254 --> 00:12:49,128\n的 狀 況 就 完 全 沒 有 一 致 性 了 。 當 你 完 全 沒 有 一 致 性 的 情 況 之 下 , 現 在 全 國 是 2 2 個 縣 市 , 對 不 對 ? 六 都 就 有 六 個 版 本 。 2 2 個 縣 市 扣 掉 , 是 不 是 要 變 成 1 7 個 版 本 ? 1 7 個 樣 態 ? 坦 白 說 啦 , 坦 白 說 , 也 不 為 過 啦 。\n\n36\n00:12:57,073 --> 00:13:09,641\n阿 不 而 過 的 情 況 之 下 , 你 中 央 在 主 管 健 保 的 這 個 單 位 , 這 個 主 管 機 關 , 你 要 怎 麼 處 理 , 要 怎 麼 應 應 ? 我 覺 得 , 要 面 對 啦 。\n\n37\n00:13:10,802 --> 00:13:38,141\n要 處 理 。 為 什 麼 有 這 個 底 氣 他 願 意 來 讓 6 5 歲 以 上 的 這 些 長 輩 免 除 的 這 個 健 保 費 的 這 樣 的 一 個 負 擔 。 但 是 相 對 的 他 有 這 個 底 氣 其 實 這 幾 年 不 是 只 有 中 央 操 爭 地 方 政 府 相 關 的 稅 收 有 操 爭 所 以 他 願 意 來 做 這 些 事 情 我 覺 得 要 鼓 勵 要 鼓 勵 到 最 後 變 成 要 一 致 性 的 情 況 之 下\n\n38\n00:13:39,754 --> 00:14:07,135\n這 個 真 的 是 要 好 好 去 盤 點 好 好 去 做 一 些 資 料 的 一 些 調 查 我 覺 得 是 時 候 是 不 是 部 長 回 來 之 後 社 長 就 可 以 跟 部 長 來 做 這 個 討 論 給 他 一 些 意 見 甚 至 也 把 主 計 單 位 找 過 來 中 央 補 助 地 方 相 關 包 含 的 專 案 計 畫 還 有 特 同 那 個 統 籌 密 稅 款 的 試 算 方 法 是 不 是 一 併 要 做 一 些 大 調 整 呢\n\n39\n00:14:09,778 --> 00:14:32,896\n我 覺 得 這 就 要 思 考 了 。 可 以 吧 ? 市 長 。 呃 , 我 剛 剛 委 員 齁 , 那 個 , 呃 , 人 家 這 樣 , 這 樣 , 這 樣 , 這 樣 有 聽 到 心 嘛 齁 。 啊 , 我 想 這 個 , 呃 , 我 會 , 那 個 部 長 他 從 日 內 瓦 回 來 之 後 , 我 會 跟 部 長 來 報 告 , 齁 , 把 委 員 的 意 見 來 提 供 。 但 是 我 也 要 強 調 就 是 說 齁 , 真 的 , 這 些 人 家 齁 , 這 個 資 源 非 常 有 限 啦 齁 。 啊 , 咱 , 咱 是 不 是 真 的 要 用 在 刀 口 上 面 ? 齁 , 啊 , 我 想 這 是 , 啊 ,\n\n40\n00:14:33,396 --> 00:14:51,486\n議 員 黃 健 豪 等 2 0 人 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民\n\n41\n00:14:51,906 --> 00:14:58,489\n對 , 對 , 這 是 從 以 前 到 現 在 一 直 是 這 樣 走 的 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 我 們 對 其 實 有 好 的 , 其 實 有 些 專 報 就 對 了 , 就 是 我 們 都 整 個 政 府 蓋 修 嘛 , 屬 性 跟 古 堡 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 這 包 含 6 5 歲 以 上 老 人 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 對 嘛 , 對 , 中 低 收 跟 低 收 嘛 。\n\n42\n00:15:10,235 --> 00:15:17,640\n因 為 他 們 那 麼 辛 苦 嘛 , 這 裡 是 有 那 個 需 要 ﹑ 需 要 ﹑ 需 要 ﹑ 是 啊 是 啊 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑\n\n43\n00:15:38,535 --> 00:15:38,695\n謝 謝 劉 建 國 委 員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5435\t10410\t好,謝謝主席。有請部長,呃,社長。要升官了。來,理事長。\n13291\t37087\t好,這樣邱部長就危險了。好,先恭喜我們的李建德次長來接任這個農論衛生部的次長。那這個應該都有掌握嘛,衛環委會召開了相關的一些會議,還有相關的業務都清楚嘛。趕快再進入狀況再學習。對,已經進入了嘛。那你知道3月28號衛環委會排什麼專案報告嗎?\n40228\t40749\t三、二十八號：劉建國\n55236\t66004\t議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案．則不予審查閱讀委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案．則不予審查閱讀委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案．則不予審查閱讀\n77761\t106193\t市長當時知道那是為了什麼事件召開嗎?我知道,就是現在那個新北,那個凱凱的那個案。那時候我在諮詢,也在這個委員會諮詢學前部長,就發現這個有蠻多缺失的,急需要來改善。那其中一個最大的缺失是,這個針對凱凱案有特殊家庭的小朋友未付原有訂這個直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置,\n106693\t126080\t而統處理的原則。那在這個原則有些規定有三項。第一個就是說建議病至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之居托的人員名單。第二個提供居托人員照顧家外安置兒童相關專業訓練。第三個訓練課程建制包括安置個案類型創傷階級問題的輔導。\n130322\t137181\t都有這樣的原則把關。那最後還是凱凱案的悲劇發生。這原因出在什麼地方?\n138626\t140408\t主席,時間是不是可以暫停一下,因為我要放那個放不出來。\n172733\t194244\t我是這樣啦齁,我當時看待是說因為台北市政府覺得他的安置資源是充足啦齁所以就不需要照這個處理原則來處理啦所以才發生這個憾事齁那時候薛副委員生氣啦齁生氣就沒有用啦然後導致這個台北市沒有這樣的名單\n195384\t218304\t那也硬要誇區到這個沒有建制到家外安置的托育人員的台北市。所以一步一步把這個凱凱推向死亡的這樣的一個結局。也因此啦齁,世家署有經過檢討。所以他在4月30又公布了一個叫做自家縣市的政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引。要來強化這個居家托育的服務的這個訪視工作。\n219665\t237006\t但是這個工作指引會不會又變成臺北市還是哪一個縣市覺得他自己支援足夠或怎麼樣又不遵照這個指引了那你們怎麼處理?你們怎麼處理?報告委員大概兩個鐘...大概兩個鐘...我們現在目前都已經社交署這邊已經有要求\n237346\t237486\t﹚劉建國﹚劉建國﹚\n264981\t265001\t﹚劉建國﹚\n287003\t303391\t那之前在那個林正偉他那邊的一個指導之下我們現在目前的整個這一個人力上面我們現在目前會來有一個倍增計畫還有另外一個就是說您剛剛像委員剛剛所說的我們現在也會定班就是說這一個他的整個這個地方政府他們的整個處理原則\n303871\t303891\t﹚劉建國\n321179\t344772\t現在不是只有我們社交組或部的社交組遇到這個問題。連社交組也遇到之前的蘇丹隆事件,也有相關之前我們針對食品的相關的手冊沒有確定。這個手冊早已經被要點,新的要點取代了。那地方政府後來拿了這個手冊來跟對方在那邊,跟我們對方在那邊argue。\n344952\t367002\t我覺得這個事情,所以當我們定原則,當我們定職員,如果地方政府不遵守的話,你們怎麼處理嗎?報告委員,我們現在目前就是說,我們有那個社福考核,績效考核,那他如果說那個不符合的話對不對,那對不起,那我們的可能以後的整個補助上面來,分數會低。只有這樣的手段而已?\n367162\t367342\t﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑\n383884\t384505\t﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑\n398793\t400496\t則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n414255\t439941\t所以依照衛部的資料22個縣市的施工需求是將近四千兩百人現在禁用差不多三千七左右,禁用率不到九成尤其縣北市的需求人數最高,它的禁用率也只有七成一那同時我這邊有一個資料就是五年內台灣的社工需求又高達四千一百八十五但是現在每年願意投入到社工師的行列每年才六百八十五,我把它算起來不到八成\n440521\t441021\t﹚劉建國﹚劉建國﹚劉建國﹚\n464867\t494154\t也就是差不多25%左右剩下75%他不投入這個職場裡面什麼原因?包括委員大概我想主要三個部分因為我自己也在大學裡面教書了那大概有三個部分一個是教考訓練這個B之間的整個結合問題另外第二個其實最重要還是剛剛委員剛剛所說的社工他自己本身的薪資、勞動條件的部分那薪資的部分我們現在目前在社安網2.0我們之前已經也已經有一個相關我們有一個社工倍增策略\n494994\t524217\t議員當然說,你被徵的問題也誘因。誘因的部分我們現在就有兩個部分,薪資。薪資的部分我們公部門薪資我們現在目前已經有提高。另外第二個是在私部門的話,我們又有一個整個這一個相關的整個這個補助。那另外一個就是說,我們現在會加強你這個社工系的學生在大三、大四的時候,你就可以到我們的機關裡面做實習。用實習的方式,那透過這個方式我們就可以這個多館來進行,來趕快提供來提高他的這一個金融率。\n525357\t549723\t職業環境,薪資嘛,對不對?是,沒錯。那自然應該很清楚。我們的一個社工服務的人口比例是多少?一比幾?如果我沒有記錯,大概一、二、三。一、二、三、五。一、二、三、五嘛,對不對?對,沒錯。一、二、三、五。那日本多少?日本我都沒記錯,應該八、四、五。如果我沒有記錯。一比八、四、五。八、四、五。日本。那韓國呢?\n552508\t578442\t韓國﹚沒關係,就這樣討論,我們不是要故意跟次長發生﹚如果韓國沒有記錯的話,大概他比我們略好一點,大概一﹑如果沒記錯他一零一零二多吧﹑一零二多﹑對,韓國﹑對不起,我這邊資料是不是有錯誤﹑就請部長再double check﹑好﹑你剛才講是日本是一比八百多嘛對不對﹑八四五﹑我這邊是一比四三六﹑喔,這樣喔﹑好﹑好﹑那你剛剛講韓國是一比一零多嘛﹑對﹑一千多嘛﹑對﹑我這邊是一比二八九﹑\n581026\t586593\t韓國?對。香港是1比41喔。韓國我可能...好,如果我的數據錯馬上提出來啊。\n587981\t613144\t我們是不是可以允許我後續?對,我講這樣啦,我講這樣,你看台灣就是一比一二多。對,沒錯。我這邊是一,跟你的數據差不多喔。你是一二三五,我是一二四九啦。對,對,對。所以應該我底下這個數據應該也不會有多大的落差啦。好,OK。但是剛剛聽市長講是落差是蠻大的。是,是。那如果這樣的市場環境怎麼會好?沒錯。對不對?畢業的學生、婆士、碩士怎麼願意來投入?是。\n613484\t613504\t﹚劉建國﹚\n643724\t672381\t要比鄰近國家落差值這麼大這整個公共職場環境他就是叫你社區公司不允許你在台灣持續再待下去所以我才會提供這個數據來給市長做參考如果說我是最相關出去數據有什麼問題沒關係可以大家就做討論但是我在這邊要具體要求市長一個月內就處理你所講的薪資還有這個職場的環境怎麼去做改善而且服務的比例如何去降低才是真正的\n673142\t673503\t則不予審查．則不予審查\n680797\t704247\t我們提供報告好不好?就是一個月提供報告了。我沒有說你馬上要怎麼去做了。最後我要呼應昭偉講的今天這個主題。我覺得這個事情還是真的必須要討論。但是是這個樣子。我講的但是兩個字就是為什麼?不是但是又無奈。台灣的政治環境一直到現在就是很奇怪。一國就是好幾次。\n705287\t723785\t但是當地方政府首長他要去展現他對65歲以上的不管什麼樣態的這些長輩讓他們減輕相關的一些負擔這個方向絕對是正確無庸置疑但是到底要不要要不要要不要有一次的標準\n724426\t752314\t不要有城鄉的落差不要有縣市之間的差異有的就像這是我看到的資料這65歲的台北市的老人綜合所得稅率未達20%那台南市離我中渡65歲以上中渡親渡身心障礙所涉且經稅監機關核定最近一年綜合所得稅未達12%然後台中市綜合所得稅稅率5%以下大大大大這是六都\n753254\t769128\t的狀況就完全沒有一致性了。當你完全沒有一致性的情況之下,現在全國是22個縣市,對不對?六都就有六個版本。22個縣市扣掉,是不是要變成17個版本?17個樣態?坦白說啦,坦白說,也不為過啦。\n777073\t789641\t阿不而過的情況之下,你中央在主管健保的這個單位,這個主管機關,你要怎麼處理,要怎麼應應?我覺得,要面對啦。\n790802\t818141\t要處理。為什麼有這個底氣他願意來讓65歲以上的這些長輩免除的這個健保費的這樣的一個負擔。但是相對的他有這個底氣其實這幾年不是只有中央操爭地方政府相關的稅收有操爭所以他願意來做這些事情我覺得要鼓勵要鼓勵到最後變成要一致性的情況之下\n819754\t847135\t這個真的是要好好去盤點好好去做一些資料的一些調查我覺得是時候是不是部長回來之後社長就可以跟部長來做這個討論給他一些意見甚至也把主計單位找過來中央補助地方相關包含的專案計畫還有特同那個統籌密稅款的試算方法是不是一併要做一些大調整呢\n849778\t872896\t我覺得這就要思考了。可以吧?市長。呃,我剛剛委員齁,那個,呃,人家這樣,這樣,這樣,這樣有聽到心嘛齁。啊,我想這個,呃,我會,那個部長他從日內瓦回來之後,我會跟部長來報告,齁,把委員的意見來提供。但是我也要強調就是說齁,真的,這些人家齁,這個資源非常有限啦齁。啊,咱,咱是不是真的要用在刀口上面?齁,啊,我想這是,啊,\n873396\t891486\t議員黃健豪等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民\n891906\t898489\t對,對,這是從以前到現在一直是這樣走的嘛,對不對?我們對其實有好的,其實有些專報就對了,就是我們都整個政府蓋修嘛,屬性跟古堡嘛,對不對?這包含65歲以上老人嘛,對不對?對嘛,對,中低收跟低收嘛。\n910235\t917640\t因為他們那麼辛苦嘛,這裡是有那個需要﹑需要﹑需要﹑是啊是啊是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑\n938535\t938695\t謝謝劉建國委員\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長,呃,社長。要升官了。來,理事長。\n好,這樣邱部長就危險了。好,先恭喜我們的李建德次長來接任這個農論衛生部的次長。那這個應該都有掌握嘛,衛環委會召開了相關的一些會議,還有相關的業務都清楚嘛。趕快再進入狀況再學習。對,已經進入了嘛。那你知道3月28號衛環委會排什麼專案報告嗎?\n三、二十八號：劉建國\n議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案．則不予審查閱讀委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案．則不予審查閱讀委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案．則不予審查閱讀\n市長當時知道那是為了什麼事件召開嗎?我知道,就是現在那個新北,那個凱凱的那個案。那時候我在諮詢,也在這個委員會諮詢學前部長,就發現這個有蠻多缺失的,急需要來改善。那其中一個最大的缺失是,這個針對凱凱案有特殊家庭的小朋友未付原有訂這個直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置,\n而統處理的原則。那在這個原則有些規定有三項。第一個就是說建議病至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之居托的人員名單。第二個提供居托人員照顧家外安置兒童相關專業訓練。第三個訓練課程建制包括安置個案類型創傷階級問題的輔導。\n都有這樣的原則把關。那最後還是凱凱案的悲劇發生。這原因出在什麼地方?\n主席,時間是不是可以暫停一下,因為我要放那個放不出來。\n我是這樣啦齁,我當時看待是說因為台北市政府覺得他的安置資源是充足啦齁所以就不需要照這個處理原則來處理啦所以才發生這個憾事齁那時候薛副委員生氣啦齁生氣就沒有用啦然後導致這個台北市沒有這樣的名單\n那也硬要誇區到這個沒有建制到家外安置的托育人員的台北市。所以一步一步把這個凱凱推向死亡的這樣的一個結局。也因此啦齁,世家署有經過檢討。所以他在4月30又公布了一個叫做自家縣市的政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引。要來強化這個居家托育的服務的這個訪視工作。\n但是這個工作指引會不會又變成臺北市還是哪一個縣市覺得他自己支援足夠或怎麼樣又不遵照這個指引了那你們怎麼處理?你們怎麼處理?報告委員大概兩個鐘...大概兩個鐘...我們現在目前都已經社交署這邊已經有要求\n﹚劉建國﹚劉建國﹚\n﹚劉建國﹚\n那之前在那個林正偉他那邊的一個指導之下我們現在目前的整個這一個人力上面我們現在目前會來有一個倍增計畫還有另外一個就是說您剛剛像委員剛剛所說的我們現在也會定班就是說這一個他的整個這個地方政府他們的整個處理原則\n﹚劉建國\n現在不是只有我們社交組或部的社交組遇到這個問題。連社交組也遇到之前的蘇丹隆事件,也有相關之前我們針對食品的相關的手冊沒有確定。這個手冊早已經被要點,新的要點取代了。那地方政府後來拿了這個手冊來跟對方在那邊,跟我們對方在那邊argue。\n我覺得這個事情,所以當我們定原則,當我們定職員,如果地方政府不遵守的話,你們怎麼處理嗎?報告委員,我們現在目前就是說,我們有那個社福考核,績效考核,那他如果說那個不符合的話對不對,那對不起,那我們的可能以後的整個補助上面來,分數會低。只有這樣的手段而已?\n﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑\n﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑\n則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．\n所以依照衛部的資料22個縣市的施工需求是將近四千兩百人現在禁用差不多三千七左右,禁用率不到九成尤其縣北市的需求人數最高,它的禁用率也只有七成一那同時我這邊有一個資料就是五年內台灣的社工需求又高達四千一百八十五但是現在每年願意投入到社工師的行列每年才六百八十五,我把它算起來不到八成\n﹚劉建國﹚劉建國﹚劉建國﹚\n也就是差不多25%左右剩下75%他不投入這個職場裡面什麼原因?包括委員大概我想主要三個部分因為我自己也在大學裡面教書了那大概有三個部分一個是教考訓練這個B之間的整個結合問題另外第二個其實最重要還是剛剛委員剛剛所說的社工他自己本身的薪資、勞動條件的部分那薪資的部分我們現在目前在社安網2.0我們之前已經也已經有一個相關我們有一個社工倍增策略\n議員當然說,你被徵的問題也誘因。誘因的部分我們現在就有兩個部分,薪資。薪資的部分我們公部門薪資我們現在目前已經有提高。另外第二個是在私部門的話,我們又有一個整個這一個相關的整個這個補助。那另外一個就是說,我們現在會加強你這個社工系的學生在大三、大四的時候,你就可以到我們的機關裡面做實習。用實習的方式,那透過這個方式我們就可以這個多館來進行,來趕快提供來提高他的這一個金融率。\n職業環境,薪資嘛,對不對?是,沒錯。那自然應該很清楚。我們的一個社工服務的人口比例是多少?一比幾?如果我沒有記錯,大概一、二、三。一、二、三、五。一、二、三、五嘛,對不對?對,沒錯。一、二、三、五。那日本多少?日本我都沒記錯,應該八、四、五。如果我沒有記錯。一比八、四、五。八、四、五。日本。那韓國呢?\n韓國﹚沒關係,就這樣討論,我們不是要故意跟次長發生﹚如果韓國沒有記錯的話,大概他比我們略好一點,大概一﹑如果沒記錯他一零一零二多吧﹑一零二多﹑對,韓國﹑對不起,我這邊資料是不是有錯誤﹑就請部長再double check﹑好﹑你剛才講是日本是一比八百多嘛對不對﹑八四五﹑我這邊是一比四三六﹑喔,這樣喔﹑好﹑好﹑那你剛剛講韓國是一比一零多嘛﹑對﹑一千多嘛﹑對﹑我這邊是一比二八九﹑\n韓國?對。香港是1比41喔。韓國我可能...好,如果我的數據錯馬上提出來啊。\n我們是不是可以允許我後續?對,我講這樣啦,我講這樣,你看台灣就是一比一二多。對,沒錯。我這邊是一,跟你的數據差不多喔。你是一二三五,我是一二四九啦。對,對,對。所以應該我底下這個數據應該也不會有多大的落差啦。好,OK。但是剛剛聽市長講是落差是蠻大的。是,是。那如果這樣的市場環境怎麼會好?沒錯。對不對?畢業的學生、婆士、碩士怎麼願意來投入?是。\n﹚劉建國﹚\n要比鄰近國家落差值這麼大這整個公共職場環境他就是叫你社區公司不允許你在台灣持續再待下去所以我才會提供這個數據來給市長做參考如果說我是最相關出去數據有什麼問題沒關係可以大家就做討論但是我在這邊要具體要求市長一個月內就處理你所講的薪資還有這個職場的環境怎麼去做改善而且服務的比例如何去降低才是真正的\n則不予審查．則不予審查\n我們提供報告好不好?就是一個月提供報告了。我沒有說你馬上要怎麼去做了。最後我要呼應昭偉講的今天這個主題。我覺得這個事情還是真的必須要討論。但是是這個樣子。我講的但是兩個字就是為什麼?不是但是又無奈。台灣的政治環境一直到現在就是很奇怪。一國就是好幾次。\n但是當地方政府首長他要去展現他對65歲以上的不管什麼樣態的這些長輩讓他們減輕相關的一些負擔這個方向絕對是正確無庸置疑但是到底要不要要不要要不要有一次的標準\n不要有城鄉的落差不要有縣市之間的差異有的就像這是我看到的資料這65歲的台北市的老人綜合所得稅率未達20%那台南市離我中渡65歲以上中渡親渡身心障礙所涉且經稅監機關核定最近一年綜合所得稅未達12%然後台中市綜合所得稅稅率5%以下大大大大這是六都\n的狀況就完全沒有一致性了。當你完全沒有一致性的情況之下,現在全國是22個縣市,對不對?六都就有六個版本。22個縣市扣掉,是不是要變成17個版本?17個樣態?坦白說啦,坦白說,也不為過啦。\n阿不而過的情況之下,你中央在主管健保的這個單位,這個主管機關,你要怎麼處理,要怎麼應應?我覺得,要面對啦。\n要處理。為什麼有這個底氣他願意來讓65歲以上的這些長輩免除的這個健保費的這樣的一個負擔。但是相對的他有這個底氣其實這幾年不是只有中央操爭地方政府相關的稅收有操爭所以他願意來做這些事情我覺得要鼓勵要鼓勵到最後變成要一致性的情況之下\n這個真的是要好好去盤點好好去做一些資料的一些調查我覺得是時候是不是部長回來之後社長就可以跟部長來做這個討論給他一些意見甚至也把主計單位找過來中央補助地方相關包含的專案計畫還有特同那個統籌密稅款的試算方法是不是一併要做一些大調整呢\n我覺得這就要思考了。可以吧?市長。呃,我剛剛委員齁,那個,呃,人家這樣,這樣,這樣,這樣有聽到心嘛齁。啊,我想這個,呃,我會,那個部長他從日內瓦回來之後,我會跟部長來報告,齁,把委員的意見來提供。但是我也要強調就是說齁,真的,這些人家齁,這個資源非常有限啦齁。啊,咱,咱是不是真的要用在刀口上面?齁,啊,我想這是,啊,\n議員黃健豪等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民\n對,對,這是從以前到現在一直是這樣走的嘛,對不對?我們對其實有好的,其實有些專報就對了,就是我們都整個政府蓋修嘛,屬性跟古堡嘛,對不對?這包含65歲以上老人嘛,對不對?對嘛,對,中低收跟低收嘛。\n因為他們那麼辛苦嘛,這裡是有那個需要﹑需要﹑需要﹑是啊是啊是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑\n謝謝劉建國委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.435 --> 00:10.410\n好 , 謝 謝 主 席 。 有 請 部 長 , 呃 , 社 長 。 要 升 官 了 。 來 , 理 事 長 。\n\n00:13.291 --> 00:37.087\n好 , 這 樣 邱 部 長 就 危 險 了 。 好 , 先 恭 喜 我 們 的 李 建 德 次 長 來 接 任 這 個 農 論 衛 生 部 的 次 長 。 那 這 個 應 該 都 有 掌 握 嘛 , 衛 環 委 會 召 開 了 相 關 的 一 些 會 議 , 還 有 相 關 的 業 務 都 清 楚 嘛 。 趕 快 再 進 入 狀 況 再 學 習 。 對 , 已 經 進 入 了 嘛 。 那 你 知 道 3 月 2 8 號 衛 環 委 會 排 什 麼 專 案 報 告 嗎 ?\n\n00:40.228 --> 00:40.749\n三 、 二 十 八 號 ： 劉 建 國\n\n00:55.236 --> 01:06.004\n議 員 黃 健 豪 等 1 9 人 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 ． 則 不 予 審 查 閱 讀 委 員 黃 健 豪 等 1 9 人 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 ． 則 不 予 審 查 閱 讀 委 員 黃 健 豪 等 1 9 人 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 ． 則 不 予 審 查 閱 讀\n\n01:17.761 --> 01:46.193\n市 長 當 時 知 道 那 是 為 了 什 麼 事 件 召 開 嗎 ? 我 知 道 , 就 是 現 在 那 個 新 北 , 那 個 凱 凱 的 那 個 案 。 那 時 候 我 在 諮 詢 , 也 在 這 個 委 員 會 諮 詢 學 前 部 長 , 就 發 現 這 個 有 蠻 多 缺 失 的 , 急 需 要 來 改 善 。 那 其 中 一 個 最 大 的 缺 失 是 , 這 個 針 對 凱 凱 案 有 特 殊 家 庭 的 小 朋 友 未 付 原 有 訂 這 個 直 轄 市 縣 市 政 府 運 用 居 家 托 育 人 員 照 顧 家 外 安 置 ,\n\n01:46.693 --> 02:06.080\n而 統 處 理 的 原 則 。 那 在 這 個 原 則 有 些 規 定 有 三 項 。 第 一 個 就 是 說 建 議 病 至 少 每 六 個 月 盤 點 適 合 照 顧 安 置 個 案 之 居 托 的 人 員 名 單 。 第 二 個 提 供 居 托 人 員 照 顧 家 外 安 置 兒 童 相 關 專 業 訓 練 。 第 三 個 訓 練 課 程 建 制 包 括 安 置 個 案 類 型 創 傷 階 級 問 題 的 輔 導 。\n\n02:10.322 --> 02:17.181\n都 有 這 樣 的 原 則 把 關 。 那 最 後 還 是 凱 凱 案 的 悲 劇 發 生 。 這 原 因 出 在 什 麼 地 方 ?\n\n02:18.626 --> 02:20.408\n主 席 , 時 間 是 不 是 可 以 暫 停 一 下 , 因 為 我 要 放 那 個 放 不 出 來 。\n\n02:52.733 --> 03:14.244\n我 是 這 樣 啦 齁 , 我 當 時 看 待 是 說 因 為 台 北 市 政 府 覺 得 他 的 安 置 資 源 是 充 足 啦 齁 所 以 就 不 需 要 照 這 個 處 理 原 則 來 處 理 啦 所 以 才 發 生 這 個 憾 事 齁 那 時 候 薛 副 委 員 生 氣 啦 齁 生 氣 就 沒 有 用 啦 然 後 導 致 這 個 台 北 市 沒 有 這 樣 的 名 單\n\n03:15.384 --> 03:38.304\n那 也 硬 要 誇 區 到 這 個 沒 有 建 制 到 家 外 安 置 的 托 育 人 員 的 台 北 市 。 所 以 一 步 一 步 把 這 個 凱 凱 推 向 死 亡 的 這 樣 的 一 個 結 局 。 也 因 此 啦 齁 , 世 家 署 有 經 過 檢 討 。 所 以 他 在 4 月 3 0 又 公 布 了 一 個 叫 做 自 家 縣 市 的 政 府 居 家 托 育 服 務 中 心 訪 視 工 作 指 引 。 要 來 強 化 這 個 居 家 托 育 的 服 務 的 這 個 訪 視 工 作 。\n\n03:39.665 --> 03:57.006\n但 是 這 個 工 作 指 引 會 不 會 又 變 成 臺 北 市 還 是 哪 一 個 縣 市 覺 得 他 自 己 支 援 足 夠 或 怎 麼 樣 又 不 遵 照 這 個 指 引 了 那 你 們 怎 麼 處 理 ? 你 們 怎 麼 處 理 ? 報 告 委 員 大 概 兩 個 鐘 . . . 大 概 兩 個 鐘 . . . 我 們 現 在 目 前 都 已 經 社 交 署 這 邊 已 經 有 要 求\n\n03:57.346 --> 03:57.486\n﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚\n\n04:24.981 --> 04:25.001\n﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚\n\n04:47.003 --> 05:03.391\n那 之 前 在 那 個 林 正 偉 他 那 邊 的 一 個 指 導 之 下 我 們 現 在 目 前 的 整 個 這 一 個 人 力 上 面 我 們 現 在 目 前 會 來 有 一 個 倍 增 計 畫 還 有 另 外 一 個 就 是 說 您 剛 剛 像 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 我 們 現 在 也 會 定 班 就 是 說 這 一 個 他 的 整 個 這 個 地 方 政 府 他 們 的 整 個 處 理 原 則\n\n05:03.871 --> 05:03.891\n﹚ 劉 建 國\n\n05:21.179 --> 05:44.772\n現 在 不 是 只 有 我 們 社 交 組 或 部 的 社 交 組 遇 到 這 個 問 題 。 連 社 交 組 也 遇 到 之 前 的 蘇 丹 隆 事 件 , 也 有 相 關 之 前 我 們 針 對 食 品 的 相 關 的 手 冊 沒 有 確 定 。 這 個 手 冊 早 已 經 被 要 點 , 新 的 要 點 取 代 了 。 那 地 方 政 府 後 來 拿 了 這 個 手 冊 來 跟 對 方 在 那 邊 , 跟 我 們 對 方 在 那 邊 a r g u e 。\n\n05:44.952 --> 06:07.002\n我 覺 得 這 個 事 情 , 所 以 當 我 們 定 原 則 , 當 我 們 定 職 員 , 如 果 地 方 政 府 不 遵 守 的 話 , 你 們 怎 麼 處 理 嗎 ? 報 告 委 員 , 我 們 現 在 目 前 就 是 說 , 我 們 有 那 個 社 福 考 核 , 績 效 考 核 , 那 他 如 果 說 那 個 不 符 合 的 話 對 不 對 , 那 對 不 起 , 那 我 們 的 可 能 以 後 的 整 個 補 助 上 面 來 , 分 數 會 低 。 只 有 這 樣 的 手 段 而 已 ?\n\n06:07.162 --> 06:07.342\n﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑\n\n06:23.884 --> 06:24.505\n﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑ 劉 建 國 ﹑\n\n06:38.793 --> 06:40.496\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查 ．\n\n06:54.255 --> 07:19.941\n所 以 依 照 衛 部 的 資 料 2 2 個 縣 市 的 施 工 需 求 是 將 近 四 千 兩 百 人 現 在 禁 用 差 不 多 三 千 七 左 右 , 禁 用 率 不 到 九 成 尤 其 縣 北 市 的 需 求 人 數 最 高 , 它 的 禁 用 率 也 只 有 七 成 一 那 同 時 我 這 邊 有 一 個 資 料 就 是 五 年 內 台 灣 的 社 工 需 求 又 高 達 四 千 一 百 八 十 五 但 是 現 在 每 年 願 意 投 入 到 社 工 師 的 行 列 每 年 才 六 百 八 十 五 , 我 把 它 算 起 來 不 到 八 成\n\n07:20.521 --> 07:21.021\n﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚\n\n07:44.867 --> 08:14.154\n也 就 是 差 不 多 2 5 % 左 右 剩 下 7 5 % 他 不 投 入 這 個 職 場 裡 面 什 麼 原 因 ? 包 括 委 員 大 概 我 想 主 要 三 個 部 分 因 為 我 自 己 也 在 大 學 裡 面 教 書 了 那 大 概 有 三 個 部 分 一 個 是 教 考 訓 練 這 個 B 之 間 的 整 個 結 合 問 題 另 外 第 二 個 其 實 最 重 要 還 是 剛 剛 委 員 剛 剛 所 說 的 社 工 他 自 己 本 身 的 薪 資 、 勞 動 條 件 的 部 分 那 薪 資 的 部 分 我 們 現 在 目 前 在 社 安 網 2 . 0 我 們 之 前 已 經 也 已 經 有 一 個 相 關 我 們 有 一 個 社 工 倍 增 策 略\n\n08:14.994 --> 08:44.217\n議 員 當 然 說 , 你 被 徵 的 問 題 也 誘 因 。 誘 因 的 部 分 我 們 現 在 就 有 兩 個 部 分 , 薪 資 。 薪 資 的 部 分 我 們 公 部 門 薪 資 我 們 現 在 目 前 已 經 有 提 高 。 另 外 第 二 個 是 在 私 部 門 的 話 , 我 們 又 有 一 個 整 個 這 一 個 相 關 的 整 個 這 個 補 助 。 那 另 外 一 個 就 是 說 , 我 們 現 在 會 加 強 你 這 個 社 工 系 的 學 生 在 大 三 、 大 四 的 時 候 , 你 就 可 以 到 我 們 的 機 關 裡 面 做 實 習 。 用 實 習 的 方 式 , 那 透 過 這 個 方 式 我 們 就 可 以 這 個 多 館 來 進 行 , 來 趕 快 提 供 來 提 高 他 的 這 一 個 金 融 率 。\n\n08:45.357 --> 09:09.723\n職 業 環 境 , 薪 資 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 是 , 沒 錯 。 那 自 然 應 該 很 清 楚 。 我 們 的 一 個 社 工 服 務 的 人 口 比 例 是 多 少 ? 一 比 幾 ? 如 果 我 沒 有 記 錯 , 大 概 一 、 二 、 三 。 一 、 二 、 三 、 五 。 一 、 二 、 三 、 五 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 對 , 沒 錯 。 一 、 二 、 三 、 五 。 那 日 本 多 少 ? 日 本 我 都 沒 記 錯 , 應 該 八 、 四 、 五 。 如 果 我 沒 有 記 錯 。 一 比 八 、 四 、 五 。 八 、 四 、 五 。 日 本 。 那 韓 國 呢 ?\n\n09:12.508 --> 09:38.442\n韓 國 ﹚ 沒 關 係 , 就 這 樣 討 論 , 我 們 不 是 要 故 意 跟 次 長 發 生 ﹚ 如 果 韓 國 沒 有 記 錯 的 話 , 大 概 他 比 我 們 略 好 一 點 , 大 概 一 ﹑ 如 果 沒 記 錯 他 一 零 一 零 二 多 吧 ﹑ 一 零 二 多 ﹑ 對 , 韓 國 ﹑ 對 不 起 , 我 這 邊 資 料 是 不 是 有 錯 誤 ﹑ 就 請 部 長 再 d o u b l e c h e c k ﹑ 好 ﹑ 你 剛 才 講 是 日 本 是 一 比 八 百 多 嘛 對 不 對 ﹑ 八 四 五 ﹑ 我 這 邊 是 一 比 四 三 六 ﹑ 喔 , 這 樣 喔 ﹑ 好 ﹑ 好 ﹑ 那 你 剛 剛 講 韓 國 是 一 比 一 零 多 嘛 ﹑ 對 ﹑ 一 千 多 嘛 ﹑ 對 ﹑ 我 這 邊 是 一 比 二 八 九 ﹑\n\n09:41.026 --> 09:46.593\n韓 國 ? 對 。 香 港 是 1 比 4 1 喔 。 韓 國 我 可 能 . . . 好 , 如 果 我 的 數 據 錯 馬 上 提 出 來 啊 。\n\n09:47.981 --> 10:13.144\n我 們 是 不 是 可 以 允 許 我 後 續 ? 對 , 我 講 這 樣 啦 , 我 講 這 樣 , 你 看 台 灣 就 是 一 比 一 二 多 。 對 , 沒 錯 。 我 這 邊 是 一 , 跟 你 的 數 據 差 不 多 喔 。 你 是 一 二 三 五 , 我 是 一 二 四 九 啦 。 對 , 對 , 對 。 所 以 應 該 我 底 下 這 個 數 據 應 該 也 不 會 有 多 大 的 落 差 啦 。 好 , O K 。 但 是 剛 剛 聽 市 長 講 是 落 差 是 蠻 大 的 。 是 , 是 。 那 如 果 這 樣 的 市 場 環 境 怎 麼 會 好 ? 沒 錯 。 對 不 對 ? 畢 業 的 學 生 、 婆 士 、 碩 士 怎 麼 願 意 來 投 入 ? 是 。\n\n10:13.484 --> 10:13.504\n﹚ 劉 建 國 ﹚\n\n10:43.724 --> 11:12.381\n要 比 鄰 近 國 家 落 差 值 這 麼 大 這 整 個 公 共 職 場 環 境 他 就 是 叫 你 社 區 公 司 不 允 許 你 在 台 灣 持 續 再 待 下 去 所 以 我 才 會 提 供 這 個 數 據 來 給 市 長 做 參 考 如 果 說 我 是 最 相 關 出 去 數 據 有 什 麼 問 題 沒 關 係 可 以 大 家 就 做 討 論 但 是 我 在 這 邊 要 具 體 要 求 市 長 一 個 月 內 就 處 理 你 所 講 的 薪 資 還 有 這 個 職 場 的 環 境 怎 麼 去 做 改 善 而 且 服 務 的 比 例 如 何 去 降 低 才 是 真 正 的\n\n11:13.142 --> 11:13.503\n則 不 予 審 查 ． 則 不 予 審 查\n\n11:20.797 --> 11:44.247\n我 們 提 供 報 告 好 不 好 ? 就 是 一 個 月 提 供 報 告 了 。 我 沒 有 說 你 馬 上 要 怎 麼 去 做 了 。 最 後 我 要 呼 應 昭 偉 講 的 今 天 這 個 主 題 。 我 覺 得 這 個 事 情 還 是 真 的 必 須 要 討 論 。 但 是 是 這 個 樣 子 。 我 講 的 但 是 兩 個 字 就 是 為 什 麼 ? 不 是 但 是 又 無 奈 。 台 灣 的 政 治 環 境 一 直 到 現 在 就 是 很 奇 怪 。 一 國 就 是 好 幾 次 。\n\n11:45.287 --> 12:03.785\n但 是 當 地 方 政 府 首 長 他 要 去 展 現 他 對 6 5 歲 以 上 的 不 管 什 麼 樣 態 的 這 些 長 輩 讓 他 們 減 輕 相 關 的 一 些 負 擔 這 個 方 向 絕 對 是 正 確 無 庸 置 疑 但 是 到 底 要 不 要 要 不 要 要 不 要 有 一 次 的 標 準\n\n12:04.426 --> 12:32.314\n不 要 有 城 鄉 的 落 差 不 要 有 縣 市 之 間 的 差 異 有 的 就 像 這 是 我 看 到 的 資 料 這 6 5 歲 的 台 北 市 的 老 人 綜 合 所 得 稅 率 未 達 2 0 % 那 台 南 市 離 我 中 渡 6 5 歲 以 上 中 渡 親 渡 身 心 障 礙 所 涉 且 經 稅 監 機 關 核 定 最 近 一 年 綜 合 所 得 稅 未 達 1 2 % 然 後 台 中 市 綜 合 所 得 稅 稅 率 5 % 以 下 大 大 大 大 這 是 六 都\n\n12:33.254 --> 12:49.128\n的 狀 況 就 完 全 沒 有 一 致 性 了 。 當 你 完 全 沒 有 一 致 性 的 情 況 之 下 , 現 在 全 國 是 2 2 個 縣 市 , 對 不 對 ? 六 都 就 有 六 個 版 本 。 2 2 個 縣 市 扣 掉 , 是 不 是 要 變 成 1 7 個 版 本 ? 1 7 個 樣 態 ? 坦 白 說 啦 , 坦 白 說 , 也 不 為 過 啦 。\n\n12:57.073 --> 13:09.641\n阿 不 而 過 的 情 況 之 下 , 你 中 央 在 主 管 健 保 的 這 個 單 位 , 這 個 主 管 機 關 , 你 要 怎 麼 處 理 , 要 怎 麼 應 應 ? 我 覺 得 , 要 面 對 啦 。\n\n13:10.802 --> 13:38.141\n要 處 理 。 為 什 麼 有 這 個 底 氣 他 願 意 來 讓 6 5 歲 以 上 的 這 些 長 輩 免 除 的 這 個 健 保 費 的 這 樣 的 一 個 負 擔 。 但 是 相 對 的 他 有 這 個 底 氣 其 實 這 幾 年 不 是 只 有 中 央 操 爭 地 方 政 府 相 關 的 稅 收 有 操 爭 所 以 他 願 意 來 做 這 些 事 情 我 覺 得 要 鼓 勵 要 鼓 勵 到 最 後 變 成 要 一 致 性 的 情 況 之 下\n\n13:39.754 --> 14:07.135\n這 個 真 的 是 要 好 好 去 盤 點 好 好 去 做 一 些 資 料 的 一 些 調 查 我 覺 得 是 時 候 是 不 是 部 長 回 來 之 後 社 長 就 可 以 跟 部 長 來 做 這 個 討 論 給 他 一 些 意 見 甚 至 也 把 主 計 單 位 找 過 來 中 央 補 助 地 方 相 關 包 含 的 專 案 計 畫 還 有 特 同 那 個 統 籌 密 稅 款 的 試 算 方 法 是 不 是 一 併 要 做 一 些 大 調 整 呢\n\n14:09.778 --> 14:32.896\n我 覺 得 這 就 要 思 考 了 。 可 以 吧 ? 市 長 。 呃 , 我 剛 剛 委 員 齁 , 那 個 , 呃 , 人 家 這 樣 , 這 樣 , 這 樣 , 這 樣 有 聽 到 心 嘛 齁 。 啊 , 我 想 這 個 , 呃 , 我 會 , 那 個 部 長 他 從 日 內 瓦 回 來 之 後 , 我 會 跟 部 長 來 報 告 , 齁 , 把 委 員 的 意 見 來 提 供 。 但 是 我 也 要 強 調 就 是 說 齁 , 真 的 , 這 些 人 家 齁 , 這 個 資 源 非 常 有 限 啦 齁 。 啊 , 咱 , 咱 是 不 是 真 的 要 用 在 刀 口 上 面 ? 齁 , 啊 , 我 想 這 是 , 啊 ,\n\n14:33.396 --> 14:51.486\n議 員 黃 健 豪 等 2 0 人 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民 黨 黨 黨 團 擬 具 : 「 老 人 福 利 法 第 二 十 二 條 條 條 文 修 正 草 案 。 i s s i p p i , 國 民\n\n14:51.906 --> 14:58.489\n對 , 對 , 這 是 從 以 前 到 現 在 一 直 是 這 樣 走 的 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 我 們 對 其 實 有 好 的 , 其 實 有 些 專 報 就 對 了 , 就 是 我 們 都 整 個 政 府 蓋 修 嘛 , 屬 性 跟 古 堡 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 這 包 含 6 5 歲 以 上 老 人 嘛 , 對 不 對 ? 對 嘛 , 對 , 中 低 收 跟 低 收 嘛 。\n\n15:10.235 --> 15:17.640\n因 為 他 們 那 麼 辛 苦 嘛 , 這 裡 是 有 那 個 需 要 ﹑ 需 要 ﹑ 需 要 ﹑ 是 啊 是 啊 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑ 是 啊 ﹑\n\n15:38.535 --> 15:38.695\n謝 謝 劉 建 國 委 員\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.435,"end":10.41,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長,呃,社長。要升官了。來,理事長。"},{"start":13.291,"end":37.087,"text":"好,這樣邱部長就危險了。好,先恭喜我們的李建德次長來接任這個農論衛生部的次長。那這個應該都有掌握嘛,衛環委會召開了相關的一些會議,還有相關的業務都清楚嘛。趕快再進入狀況再學習。對,已經進入了嘛。那你知道3月28號衛環委會排什麼專案報告嗎?"},{"start":40.228,"end":40.749,"text":"三、二十八號：劉建國"},{"start":55.236,"end":66.004,"text":"議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案．則不予審查閱讀委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案．則不予審查閱讀委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案．則不予審查閱讀"},{"start":77.761,"end":106.193,"text":"市長當時知道那是為了什麼事件召開嗎?我知道,就是現在那個新北,那個凱凱的那個案。那時候我在諮詢,也在這個委員會諮詢學前部長,就發現這個有蠻多缺失的,急需要來改善。那其中一個最大的缺失是,這個針對凱凱案有特殊家庭的小朋友未付原有訂這個直轄市縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置,"},{"start":106.693,"end":126.08,"text":"而統處理的原則。那在這個原則有些規定有三項。第一個就是說建議病至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之居托的人員名單。第二個提供居托人員照顧家外安置兒童相關專業訓練。第三個訓練課程建制包括安置個案類型創傷階級問題的輔導。"},{"start":130.322,"end":137.181,"text":"都有這樣的原則把關。那最後還是凱凱案的悲劇發生。這原因出在什麼地方?"},{"start":138.626,"end":140.408,"text":"主席,時間是不是可以暫停一下,因為我要放那個放不出來。"},{"start":172.733,"end":194.244,"text":"我是這樣啦齁,我當時看待是說因為台北市政府覺得他的安置資源是充足啦齁所以就不需要照這個處理原則來處理啦所以才發生這個憾事齁那時候薛副委員生氣啦齁生氣就沒有用啦然後導致這個台北市沒有這樣的名單"},{"start":195.384,"end":218.304,"text":"那也硬要誇區到這個沒有建制到家外安置的托育人員的台北市。所以一步一步把這個凱凱推向死亡的這樣的一個結局。也因此啦齁,世家署有經過檢討。所以他在4月30又公布了一個叫做自家縣市的政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引。要來強化這個居家托育的服務的這個訪視工作。"},{"start":219.665,"end":237.006,"text":"但是這個工作指引會不會又變成臺北市還是哪一個縣市覺得他自己支援足夠或怎麼樣又不遵照這個指引了那你們怎麼處理?你們怎麼處理?報告委員大概兩個鐘...大概兩個鐘...我們現在目前都已經社交署這邊已經有要求"},{"start":237.346,"end":237.486,"text":"﹚劉建國﹚劉建國﹚"},{"start":264.981,"end":265.001,"text":"﹚劉建國﹚"},{"start":287.003,"end":303.391,"text":"那之前在那個林正偉他那邊的一個指導之下我們現在目前的整個這一個人力上面我們現在目前會來有一個倍增計畫還有另外一個就是說您剛剛像委員剛剛所說的我們現在也會定班就是說這一個他的整個這個地方政府他們的整個處理原則"},{"start":303.871,"end":303.891,"text":"﹚劉建國"},{"start":321.179,"end":344.772,"text":"現在不是只有我們社交組或部的社交組遇到這個問題。連社交組也遇到之前的蘇丹隆事件,也有相關之前我們針對食品的相關的手冊沒有確定。這個手冊早已經被要點,新的要點取代了。那地方政府後來拿了這個手冊來跟對方在那邊,跟我們對方在那邊argue。"},{"start":344.952,"end":367.002,"text":"我覺得這個事情,所以當我們定原則,當我們定職員,如果地方政府不遵守的話,你們怎麼處理嗎?報告委員,我們現在目前就是說,我們有那個社福考核,績效考核,那他如果說那個不符合的話對不對,那對不起,那我們的可能以後的整個補助上面來,分數會低。只有這樣的手段而已?"},{"start":367.162,"end":367.342,"text":"﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑"},{"start":383.884,"end":384.505,"text":"﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑劉建國﹑"},{"start":398.793,"end":400.496,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":414.255,"end":439.941,"text":"所以依照衛部的資料22個縣市的施工需求是將近四千兩百人現在禁用差不多三千七左右,禁用率不到九成尤其縣北市的需求人數最高,它的禁用率也只有七成一那同時我這邊有一個資料就是五年內台灣的社工需求又高達四千一百八十五但是現在每年願意投入到社工師的行列每年才六百八十五,我把它算起來不到八成"},{"start":440.521,"end":441.021,"text":"﹚劉建國﹚劉建國﹚劉建國﹚"},{"start":464.867,"end":494.154,"text":"也就是差不多25%左右剩下75%他不投入這個職場裡面什麼原因?包括委員大概我想主要三個部分因為我自己也在大學裡面教書了那大概有三個部分一個是教考訓練這個B之間的整個結合問題另外第二個其實最重要還是剛剛委員剛剛所說的社工他自己本身的薪資、勞動條件的部分那薪資的部分我們現在目前在社安網2.0我們之前已經也已經有一個相關我們有一個社工倍增策略"},{"start":494.994,"end":524.217,"text":"議員當然說,你被徵的問題也誘因。誘因的部分我們現在就有兩個部分,薪資。薪資的部分我們公部門薪資我們現在目前已經有提高。另外第二個是在私部門的話,我們又有一個整個這一個相關的整個這個補助。那另外一個就是說,我們現在會加強你這個社工系的學生在大三、大四的時候,你就可以到我們的機關裡面做實習。用實習的方式,那透過這個方式我們就可以這個多館來進行,來趕快提供來提高他的這一個金融率。"},{"start":525.357,"end":549.723,"text":"職業環境,薪資嘛,對不對?是,沒錯。那自然應該很清楚。我們的一個社工服務的人口比例是多少?一比幾?如果我沒有記錯,大概一、二、三。一、二、三、五。一、二、三、五嘛,對不對?對,沒錯。一、二、三、五。那日本多少?日本我都沒記錯,應該八、四、五。如果我沒有記錯。一比八、四、五。八、四、五。日本。那韓國呢?"},{"start":552.508,"end":578.442,"text":"韓國﹚沒關係,就這樣討論,我們不是要故意跟次長發生﹚如果韓國沒有記錯的話,大概他比我們略好一點,大概一﹑如果沒記錯他一零一零二多吧﹑一零二多﹑對,韓國﹑對不起,我這邊資料是不是有錯誤﹑就請部長再double check﹑好﹑你剛才講是日本是一比八百多嘛對不對﹑八四五﹑我這邊是一比四三六﹑喔,這樣喔﹑好﹑好﹑那你剛剛講韓國是一比一零多嘛﹑對﹑一千多嘛﹑對﹑我這邊是一比二八九﹑"},{"start":581.026,"end":586.593,"text":"韓國?對。香港是1比41喔。韓國我可能...好,如果我的數據錯馬上提出來啊。"},{"start":587.981,"end":613.144,"text":"我們是不是可以允許我後續?對,我講這樣啦,我講這樣,你看台灣就是一比一二多。對,沒錯。我這邊是一,跟你的數據差不多喔。你是一二三五,我是一二四九啦。對,對,對。所以應該我底下這個數據應該也不會有多大的落差啦。好,OK。但是剛剛聽市長講是落差是蠻大的。是,是。那如果這樣的市場環境怎麼會好?沒錯。對不對?畢業的學生、婆士、碩士怎麼願意來投入?是。"},{"start":613.484,"end":613.504,"text":"﹚劉建國﹚"},{"start":643.724,"end":672.381,"text":"要比鄰近國家落差值這麼大這整個公共職場環境他就是叫你社區公司不允許你在台灣持續再待下去所以我才會提供這個數據來給市長做參考如果說我是最相關出去數據有什麼問題沒關係可以大家就做討論但是我在這邊要具體要求市長一個月內就處理你所講的薪資還有這個職場的環境怎麼去做改善而且服務的比例如何去降低才是真正的"},{"start":673.142,"end":673.503,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查"},{"start":680.797,"end":704.247,"text":"我們提供報告好不好?就是一個月提供報告了。我沒有說你馬上要怎麼去做了。最後我要呼應昭偉講的今天這個主題。我覺得這個事情還是真的必須要討論。但是是這個樣子。我講的但是兩個字就是為什麼?不是但是又無奈。台灣的政治環境一直到現在就是很奇怪。一國就是好幾次。"},{"start":705.287,"end":723.785,"text":"但是當地方政府首長他要去展現他對65歲以上的不管什麼樣態的這些長輩讓他們減輕相關的一些負擔這個方向絕對是正確無庸置疑但是到底要不要要不要要不要有一次的標準"},{"start":724.426,"end":752.314,"text":"不要有城鄉的落差不要有縣市之間的差異有的就像這是我看到的資料這65歲的台北市的老人綜合所得稅率未達20%那台南市離我中渡65歲以上中渡親渡身心障礙所涉且經稅監機關核定最近一年綜合所得稅未達12%然後台中市綜合所得稅稅率5%以下大大大大這是六都"},{"start":753.254,"end":769.128,"text":"的狀況就完全沒有一致性了。當你完全沒有一致性的情況之下,現在全國是22個縣市,對不對?六都就有六個版本。22個縣市扣掉,是不是要變成17個版本?17個樣態?坦白說啦,坦白說,也不為過啦。"},{"start":777.073,"end":789.641,"text":"阿不而過的情況之下,你中央在主管健保的這個單位,這個主管機關,你要怎麼處理,要怎麼應應?我覺得,要面對啦。"},{"start":790.802,"end":818.141,"text":"要處理。為什麼有這個底氣他願意來讓65歲以上的這些長輩免除的這個健保費的這樣的一個負擔。但是相對的他有這個底氣其實這幾年不是只有中央操爭地方政府相關的稅收有操爭所以他願意來做這些事情我覺得要鼓勵要鼓勵到最後變成要一致性的情況之下"},{"start":819.754,"end":847.135,"text":"這個真的是要好好去盤點好好去做一些資料的一些調查我覺得是時候是不是部長回來之後社長就可以跟部長來做這個討論給他一些意見甚至也把主計單位找過來中央補助地方相關包含的專案計畫還有特同那個統籌密稅款的試算方法是不是一併要做一些大調整呢"},{"start":849.778,"end":872.896,"text":"我覺得這就要思考了。可以吧?市長。呃,我剛剛委員齁,那個,呃,人家這樣,這樣,這樣,這樣有聽到心嘛齁。啊,我想這個,呃,我會,那個部長他從日內瓦回來之後,我會跟部長來報告,齁,把委員的意見來提供。但是我也要強調就是說齁,真的,這些人家齁,這個資源非常有限啦齁。啊,咱,咱是不是真的要用在刀口上面?齁,啊,我想這是,啊,"},{"start":873.396,"end":891.486,"text":"議員黃健豪等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民"},{"start":891.906,"end":898.489,"text":"對,對,這是從以前到現在一直是這樣走的嘛,對不對?我們對其實有好的,其實有些專報就對了,就是我們都整個政府蓋修嘛,屬性跟古堡嘛,對不對?這包含65歲以上老人嘛,對不對?對嘛,對,中低收跟低收嘛。"},{"start":910.235,"end":917.64,"text":"因為他們那麼辛苦嘛,這裡是有那個需要﹑需要﹑需要﹑是啊是啊是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑"},{"start":938.535,"end":938.695,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員"}]}}}}