{"id":153384,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153384","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebacd42d91b20dc4ccbcb22e1ce6086f58b446d6a815e9137445cc478b7cbe24b1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:05:57 - 11:16:04","影片長度":"00:10:07","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:05:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:16:04+08:00","duration":607,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":938,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時6分）謝謝主席，請曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["許委員宇甄：曾主委，我想請教你，關於原住民族自治法，你在書面報告第五頁有提到，行政院曾經五次送請立法院審議皆無法獲致共識，足見推動原住民族自治法的艱鉅。請問主委，民進黨過去八年有沒有提出原住民族自治法草案到立法院審議？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有？為什麼？你的報告裡面不是寫曾經有五次嗎？但是過去八年民進黨一次都沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案，為什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：後來沒有是因為就改用分流立法的方式來進行。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我想請教一下，賴清德總統說他會找原住民及社會各界一起討論，並找出最好的作法讓原住民落實自治，其實原住民族基本法第四條也有明定，請問你們什麼時候要跟原住民及社會各界討論，何時可以提出原住民自治法草案送交立法院審議？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，原住民自治真的是不容易啦，但是至少到目前為止，我們有先找幾個族，譬如找太魯閣跟魯凱先做討論，看看這些比較容易取得共識的族群是不是要先來做，目前這兩個族也算是討論得比較有一點點進度啦！"],["許委員宇甄：總共要跟多少族討論？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們陸續會跟十六族來討論，像雅美還有卑南也還是在討論。"],["許委員宇甄：如果以這個速度來算，過去八年你們跟兩個族討論，那這樣的話，還要多久的時間才有可能討論完？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們儘快來完成幾個族群，如果是比較……"],["許委員宇甄：我知道主委剛上任，我剛剛也聽了很多委員質詢，大概主委是很勇於任事，所以你都一直講儘快、儘快，但是儘快的意思就是沒有一個時程，所以還是希望原民會能夠訂出時程。","還有你剛剛提到的分流立法，以分流立法來說，原住民族基本法第二十條有規定，其實原住民也希望政府能夠早一點制定原住民族土地及海域法，就是依據分流立法的概念，一直說分流立法可以保障原住民土地跟海域的權益，但是你們分流分到最後，現在原住民族土地及海域法有制定嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：還沒有嘛！你們現在是不想制定這個法案？是賴清德總統的想法？還是主委您的想法？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會啦，我們還會討論，不會不讓……我們還是要討論。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛你講到分流立法的概念，可是我們現在看到的是分流立法分到最後什麼法都沒定，所以應該要回到原住民族自治法這個部分，不要再用分流立法的方式，因為分流立法到目前為止還是什麼都沒制定啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，請主委回去之後要審慎地考慮。","另外，主委您在報告的第一頁就說要依據憲法法庭判決的結果，完成原住民身分法的修法或另訂專法，讓平埔族可以取得原住民的身分。憲法法庭給的期限是114年10月27號之前要完成，請問原民會目前是朝著原住民身分法的修法，還是制定專法來處理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們是朝制定專法來進行。"],["許委員宇甄：既然要朝制定專法來進行的話，剛剛也很多委員提到，這對於原住民產生的衝擊非常地大，不管是各方面。接下來我也要跟主委探討如何保障平地原住民跟山地原住民的權益，因為賴清德總統去年曾經請原民會要審慎地評估還有積極地處理平埔族正名之後的後續法制工作，讓平埔族的身分認同感獲得保障，而且也要依據各原住民族客觀的需求，以國家資源合理分配為原則，回復平埔族獲得民族身分之後的相關權利。請問一下，主委您剛剛有提到平埔族的人數現在大概是98萬人……"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["許委員宇甄：目前山地原住民和平地原住民加起來是59萬人，所以平埔族取得原住民的身分之後，既有的資源會不會被稀釋？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們是先讓平埔取得原住民的身分，至於權利跟義務，我們後續還要再做一些……"],["許委員宇甄：從剛剛提到的人數比例，你就知道原來的山原和平原加起來是59萬，而平埔族就有98萬了，如果以這樣的資源分配的話，很難不去稀釋到我們原來原住民的一些資源。而且依照賴清德總統的邏輯，平埔族取得原住民的身分之後，主委認為原民會的預算要增加多少才夠用？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果是這樣的話，大概可能要到200億了！"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，那200億的預算要從哪裡來？"],["曾主任委員智勇：從法制面來講，我是跟院裡面做報告，依法來編這樣的預算。"],["許委員宇甄：在目前都還不知道的狀況之下，主委第一個要推動的就是平埔族的正名，也就是推動原住民身分法，其實都還沒有經過審慎的評估，如果你現在說預算要增加200億，那就會排擠到其他預算，這個部分其實可能都沒有辦法像主委講得這麼圓滿，並不是現在因為想要正名平埔族，所以後續的問題都可以自然地解決，我覺得這些都要審慎地評估，而不是一味地說我先來推動，讓他們正名，其實正名之後，後續就會面臨到這麼多問題，包括資源的問題、預算的問題。還有，請教一下，原住民的原住民保留地，他們是不是也可以購買了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：只有原住民才可以購買原住民保留地。"],["許委員宇甄：對，那平埔族呢？他們可不可以購買？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個還沒有討論到……"],["許委員宇甄：我就是點出幾個問題啦，我現在只是點出這兩個問題，可能都已經很窒礙難行了，所以這個問題茲事體大，請主委回去之後一定要審慎地評估，不要因為這是賴總統的政見，就一定要把它完成，而是要真正能夠照顧到平埔族、照顧到山原跟平原的權益。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。另外再請教一下，針對剛才提到的原住民保留地是不是可以購買，如果按照您剛剛提到的邏輯，原則上如果平埔族具有原住民的身分之後，他應該是可以購買，請問這會不會導致原保地的價格飆漲，讓實際生活在部落的原住民買不起原保地？"],["曾主任委員智勇：按照現行規定的話，他還不能買啦！"],["許委員宇甄：對，但如果正名完之後呢？他成為原住民的話，他可不可以買？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果法律另外有定的話，當然他就可以買，如果沒有定的話，他就不能買。"],["許委員宇甄：按照你現在的邏輯，平埔族可以取得原住民的身分，他既然有原住民身分，他照理說可以買原保地，如果他可以購買原保地，可能就會造成原來的原保地價格飆漲，讓大家都買不起。","還有就是現在原住民的參政權、教育權、工作權要怎麼獲得保障？現有原住民的參政權，你看比如立委有六席，還有各地不管是議員、代表，我們本來都有一些原住民的名額，現在你把平埔族正名之後，這些參政權你要怎麼保障？教育權、工作權要怎麼保障？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就立法委員的部分是要修憲的，至於地方制度法的就是回歸到地方制度法，就是地方縣市議員要怎麼選就要回歸到地方制度法……"],["許委員宇甄：對，但是你講的是法制面，要怎麼去保障？是名額要增加，還是會去排擠到現有的名額？可能到時候都要請原民會這邊審慎來評估，以上，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝主委的回答。","主委，我真的實在是……今天宇甄質詢的這個問題，是真的很重要的一個問題，而且您在今天的報告也列為第一個部分，你在今年9月底要把法律草案函報行政院，11月底要通過行政院後函送大院，感覺你好像都還沒有準備好，我們真的是有點擔心，希望你好好地準備一下。","我們現在就處理臨時提案，總共有兩案，我們請議事人員宣讀。","一、","案由：因應移居非原住民族地區原住民面臨之各種問題，政府實應加強對都市地區原住民族權益保障。惟，如何避免因加強對都市地區原住民族權益保障，使都市化、磁吸效應加劇，反造成原鄉人口老化、部落空洞化問題。又，都市地區原住民族發展條例草案之立法，現有各委員提案版本內容規範不一、層面廣泛，爰請原住民族委員會邀集相關部會、地方政府與都市地區原住民族團體、部落代表等召開公聽會，聽取各界意見，以使對都市地區原住民族權益之保障與協助更加周延可行。","提案人：王美惠　　蘇巧慧　　黃　捷　　李柏毅　　張宏陸　　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳　瑩　　","二、","有鑑於原民會出版主委個人施政專刊，產生預算科目名不符實之疑慮。","據此，要求原住民族委員會每年9月15日比照經濟委員會各部會，制訂「相關預算科目細部計畫說明表」，寫清楚預算科目、績效指標、預期效益等相關事項，確保預算名實相符。","提案人：高金素梅　　　許宇甄　　牛煦庭　　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　"],["主席：好，我們討論一下第1案，大家有沒有意見？原民會？但是在沒有意見之前，我是不是來詢問一下，去年度其實已經辦了非常多的場次，對不對？來，請處長來回應一下，辦了幾次？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：因為當時我們委託政治大學，他們其實總共辦了7場次。"],["主席：已經辦過7場次了，對不對？然後研討會也辦過，對不對？辦了幾次？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：研討會辦1次。"],["主席：去年也委託，你們也把這個提案提出來過，對不對？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：去年我們是有先跟行政院的林萬億政務委員報告過草案的內容。"],["主席：你現在可不可以說明一下到底有什麼窒礙難行跟困難的地方？因為現在就是有我們的委員提案，希望你們再邀集相關部會、地方政府跟都市地區的原住民團體、部落代表召開公聽會，你覺得這個公聽會召開完了以後，會解決現在一些問題嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：因為目前這個草案的內容都有涉及到地方政府執掌的一些事項，比如說有些部分是需要地方政府去訂定一些後續的法規，然後甚至有些部分也涉及到地方政府的預算編列，所以這部分確實可能還需要再跟地方政府進一步溝通。"],["主席：所以，你認為我們要辦幾場的公聽會才能夠解決這些問題？還是，我們公聽會就算是辦完了，很多的問題還是沒有辦法解決？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：辦公聽會，我們會儘量跟地方政府達成共識，因為有些部分可能還是需要中央政府的協助，我們也可以透過公聽會去釐清彼此之間的一個……"],["主席：那中央政府要幫忙協助什麼東西？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：有些部分是預算的編列，因為這個部分都原條例的內容，其實……"],["主席：上次你們討論過的這個預算，到底要增加多少？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：預算的部分，因為目前我們已經有一個都市原住民族發展方案在那個地方執行了，那個是一個跨部會的方案，它總共會有七十幾億的預算，即未來五年會有七十幾億的預算會投入到都市地區原住民，所以預算的部分不會增加很多，應該幾乎都是現有的。"],["主席：所以這樣子好不好？美惠委員，我是尊重你們的提案，但是我們是不是在這提案當中，也請原民會之前召開過了幾次的研討會，還有很多的公聽會，然後也委託研究過這個部分，能不能也請他們提供一下報告及數據給我們？這樣子的話，我們在場的各委員才會清楚知道，未來我們推動這個草案的時候要解決哪幾個大的問題，可以嗎？"],["王委員美惠：可以，可以！都是為了原住民好的，都可以。"],["主席：可以，謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：同意，那就加進去吧！"],["主席：對，我們加進去，好不好？我們把剛剛召委提的這幾個部分用文字來寫進去，明確請你們提供，好不好？我們請原民會來把文字擬具一下，可以嗎？好，謝謝。","好，臨時提案第2案大家有沒有意見？對，就是說我們希望原民會能夠……對不起，「經濟委員會各部會」如果不要寫也沒問題，就是說「每年9月15日以前，制訂『相關預算科目細部計畫說明表』，寫清楚預算科目、績效指標、預期效益等相關事項，確保預算名實相符」，可以嗎？請問一下宏陸委員。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得把「比照經濟委員會各部會」刪掉。"],["主席：對，我拿掉，我知道，所以就是「據此，要求原住民族委員會在每年9月15日，制訂『相關預算科目細部計畫說明表』，寫清楚預算科目、績效指標，預期效益等相關事項，確保預算名實相符」可以嗎？好，那原民會有沒有意見？"],["王委員美惠：好啦，這樣好啦，還有什麼意見嗎？"],["主席：「15日前」，好不好？對，再加一個「前」。"],["王委員美惠：來，原民會，改這樣……"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有意見。"],["王委員美惠：沒有意見，好。"],["主席：以後都要比照辦理，好，謝謝。","所以現在臨時提案第1案我們來加一下文字。把增加的文字說明一下。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：我們在原來的提案文字後面加上：並請原住民族委員會提供歷來辦理座談會、研討會及委託研究之資料，提供給內政委員會各委員參考。"],["主席：不僅提供資料，你們要整理一下，因為我想在場委員們看太多這些公聽會的資料，看不完了，你們要整理完，好不好？對，有幾個問題點，然後要解決的、要注意的，中央各部會有哪一些人要來協助，可以嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：報告委員，我們把第一句改成：並請原住民族委員會提供並整理歷來辦理座談會、研討會及委託研究之資料給內政委員會各委員參考……"],["主席：還有公聽會的。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：因為我們這之前都是用座談會的方式。"],["主席：所以你們沒有開過公聽會？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：公聽會沒有。"],["主席：OK！就是座談會而已，是不是？好。"],["王委員美惠：以前都是座談會……"],["主席：我想請問一下委員，我們是要開幾場公聽會比較好呢？你上面要不要寫？因為你只有講說地方政府，還有相關部會、部落代表要召開公聽會聽取各界意見，並沒有寫幾場，會不會就一直延後？柏毅委員。"],["李委員柏毅：我先表達，我對這個是支持，對於幾場公聽會我沒有意見，但是我會建議對於地方政府一定要落實拜訪跟討論。地方政府可能會有不一樣的意見跟需求，如果與地方政府沒有經過完整的討論跟拜訪、彙集意見的話，我覺得會很有問題，所以作以上說明。"],["主席：請問原民會處長，大概會跨到幾個地方政府？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：目前就是除了花東之外的地方政府都會涉及到，因為目前花東都是原住民族地區，其他縣市則都會有定義上的都會區原住民族。"],["主席：所以這樣滿多的，會花滿長的一段時間。"],["王委員美惠：主委在這裡，我叫他們要加速。說實在的，你們修這個法，地方都不知道，像剛剛本席問的跟你們說的，我覺得落差也滿大的，所以我才會要求開公聽會，大家有意見可以出來討論，看看你們需要什麼、地方要配合什麼、他們的困難度在哪裡，這才是最重要的。不然你們光說要做，但地方要是不配合，也沒辦法啊！"],["主席：陳瑩委員也有提案。現在有一項臨時提案，就是希望原民會邀集相關部會、地方政府和都市地區原住民團體、部落代表召開公聽會，聽完了之後再來處理，不知道陳瑩委員的意見是？"],["陳委員瑩：我想多討論是好的，我也贊成讓各縣市都來辦公聽會，大家仔細討論。當然，有時候中央提案，地方買單，因為涉及財政的問題，到各地方縣市政府聽聽他們的意見是好的，所以我建議至少每個縣市都一定要辦公聽會。"],["主席：好，所以您是希望在每個縣市都要辦公聽會？"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["主席：這樣的話就要好幾場囉！可能會延宕我們這邊，因為公聽會辦完之後，可能才能研議非常多問題，這樣陳瑩委員您接受嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：我這邊沒有問題。"],["王委員美惠：主席，不好意思。我覺得比較多數的人認為到目前為止，原民會都沒有跟地方政府談。現在要討論要訂3場還是4場等等，但我認為應該叫他們趕快去處理，而我們不要訂，因為重點是他們要趕緊去辦啊！以我們嘉義市來講，我剛才就講過了，為了一千兩百多人，如果要求地方配合，但只跟民政處講好，地還找不到，我覺得這不是負責任的作法。你們要把問題出在哪裡、現在要使用的權利，包括學校等等、有什麼困難，都要提出來討論啊！主委，我覺得你們要積極到地方辦啦！不是像現在這樣只是去拜訪一下，通知一下有這個條款要過，要求他們配合。你們要說清楚，人家若要幫忙你們，才有辦法幫忙啊！否則光是你們中央修這個法，形同強迫地方要做，沒做還要挨罵。所以我主張真的要趕快處理、趕快開公聽會。以上。"],["主席：好。這樣子好不好？我們折衷一下，如果是去拜訪各縣市政府的話，我覺得真的會花滿長的時間，去年度他們已經辦了很多場座談會，也委託研究，所以提案直接寫五場，好不好？可以嗎？五場公聽會，好不好？不然的話時間太長啊！"],["張委員宏陸：召委，我也認為不要拖太久，但如果是五場，至少直轄市就有六都了，六都至少都要……"],["主席：好，那這樣子，是不是以月份來限制他們積極處理？"],["張委員宏陸：對、對、對。"],["主席：在三個月內，好不好？"],["張委員宏陸：好、好、好。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["張委員宏陸：可以啦！至少六都都要去啦！"],["王委員美惠：三個月內。"],["張委員宏陸：六都至少都要去啦！"],["主席：好不好？那我們就在文字上明確加上「三個月內」。我看一下：「原住民族委員會邀集相關部會、地方政府與……三個月內召開」，對，修正為「部落代表等在三個月內召開公聽會，聽取各界意見，以使對都市地區原住民族權益之保障與協助更加周延可行」，可以嗎？後面就是「並請原住民族委員會提供並整理歷來辦理座談會、研討會及委託研究的資料，提供給內政委員會各委員參考。」可以嗎？好，就按照修正文字通過，謝謝大家。","繼續再來質詢。","請張智倫委員質詢。張智倫委員提書面報告。","請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"153384","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153384","tool":"pyannote","id":"153384-pyannote"},"job_id":"R3ubm3dsV9kDDySU","queued_at":"2024-05-30 12:05:20","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 12:05:20","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153384"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:05:21","msg":"downloading 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Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）\n發言委員：許宇甄"},"job_id":"ArzoYdJ5KRqzQhgB","queued_at":"2024-05-30 12:05:21","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-30 12:05:50","msg":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153384 already downloaded"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:05:50","msg":"running whisperx with  --model large-v3 --initial_prompt '會議名稱：立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）\n發言委員：許宇甄'"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:06:12","msg":"merging result"},{"time":"2024-05-30 12:06:12","msg":"status: done"}],"result":{"json":"{\"segments\": [{\"start\": 4.056, \"end\": 4.217, \"text\": \"珍竹葦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"珍\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 596.33, \"end\": 596.35, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 597.09, \"end\": 597.15, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"宣\", \"start\": 597.15, \"end\": 597.17, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 597.17, \"end\": 597.19, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,056 --> 00:00:04,217\n珍 竹 葦\n\n2\n00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:42,121\n鄭 主 委 我 想 請 教 你 關 於 原 住 民 族 的 自 治 法 你 在 你 的 書 面 報 告 裡 提 到 就 第 五 頁 有 提 到 行 政 院 曾 經 五 次 送 請 立 法 院 審 議 皆 無 法 獲 至 共 識 逐 漸 推 動 原 住 民 族 自 治 法 的 兼 具 請 問 主 委 民 進 黨 過 去 八 年 有 沒 有 提 出 原 住 民 族 自 治 法 的 草 案 到 立 法 院 審 議 沒 有 跟 委 員 報 告 沒 有 沒 有 為 什 麼\n\n3\n00:00:45,853 --> 00:00:54,503\n因 為 你 報 告 不 是 寫 曾 經 五 次 嗎 ? 但 是 過 去 八 年 民 進 黨 一 次 都 沒 有 提 出 原 住 民 族 自 治 法 的 草 案 。 為 什 麼 ?\n\n4\n00:00:55,356 --> 00:01:21,646\n後 來 沒 有 是 因 為 就 改 用 婚 留 立 法 的 這 個 方 式 來 進 行 。 好 。 我 想 請 教 一 下 賴 清 德 總 統 說 他 會 找 原 住 民 社 會 各 界 一 起 討 論 並 找 出 最 好 的 做 法 讓 原 住 民 落 實 自 治 喔 。 那 原 住 民 族 基 本 法 的 第 四 條 也 有 明 定 喔 。 請 問 一 下 你 們 什 麼 時 候 要 跟 原 住 民 社 會 各 界 討 論 ? 何 時 可 以 提 出 原 住 民 自 治 法 的 草 案 送 交 立 法 院 審 議 ?\n\n5\n00:01:22,728 --> 00:01:47,947\n跟 委 員 報 告 原 住 民 自 治 是 真 的 是 不 容 易 但 是 至 少 到 目 前 為 止 我 們 有 先 找 幾 個 組 像 比 如 講 這 個 太 魯 閣 跟 這 個 盧 凱 先 做 討 論 他 們 比 較 容 易 取 得 共 識 的 這 個 族 群 是 不 是 要 來 先 做 那 我 們 目 前 這 兩 個 組 也 正 在 討 論 的 算 是 比 較 有 一 點 點 這 個 進 度 的 這 兩 個 部 落 了\n\n6\n00:01:51,089 --> 00:02:08,998\n總 共 要 跟 多 少 族 討 論 ? 我 們 陸 續 會 跟 1 6 族 來 討 論 , 像 亞 美 的 部 分 , 亞 美 還 有 北 南 。 那 如 果 以 這 個 速 度 來 算 , 過 去 8 年 你 現 在 跟 兩 個 族 討 論 , 那 這 樣 的 話 才 要 多 久 的 時 間 才 有 可 能 討 論 完 ?\n\n7\n00:02:13,652 --> 00:02:41,923\n我 們 盡 快 來 完 成 幾 個 族 群 因 為 我 知 道 主 委 剛 上 任 我 剛 剛 也 聽 了 很 多 委 員 質 詢 主 委 是 很 勇 於 任 事 所 以 您 都 一 直 講 盡 快 盡 快 但 是 盡 快 的 意 思 就 是 沒 有 一 個 時 辰 所 以 還 是 希 望 說 主 委 這 邊 還 是 要 我 們 原 民 會 還 是 要 定 出 一 個 時 辰 還 有 你 剛 剛 提 到 的 分 流 立 法 因 為 其 實 以 分 流 立 法 來 說 目 前\n\n8\n00:02:42,783 --> 00:03:06,864\n我 們 看 到 的 是 原 住 民 因 為 其 實 像 原 住 民 基 本 法 第 2 0 條 有 規 定 就 是 原 住 民 也 希 望 政 府 能 夠 早 一 點 制 定 原 住 民 族 土 地 跟 海 域 法 就 是 依 據 你 分 流 立 法 的 概 念 一 直 說 可 以 保 障 原 住 民 土 地 跟 海 域 的 權 益 但 是 你 們 分 流 分 到 最 後 現 在 原 住 民 族 土 地 跟 海 域 法 有 制 定 嗎 ? 還 沒 有 嗎 ?\n\n9\n00:03:09,728 --> 00:03:18,185\n還 沒 有 所 以 說 你 們 現 在 是 不 想 制 定 這 個 法 案 還 是 賴 清 德 總 統 的 想 法 還 是 主 委 您 的 想 法\n\n10\n00:03:20,715 --> 00:03:45,877\n我 們 會 會 啦 這 邊 我 們 還 會 還 會 討 論 不 會 不 會 不 會 因 為 剛 剛 你 講 到 分 流 立 法 的 一 個 概 念 嗎 可 是 我 們 現 在 看 到 是 分 流 立 法 分 到 最 後 到 最 後 什 麼 法 都 沒 定 所 以 其 實 應 該 是 要 回 到 這 個 原 住 民 的 這 個 這 個 自 治 法 這 個 部 分 不 要 再 用 分 流 立 法 的 方 式 因 為 其 實 分 流 立 法 到 最 後 到 目 前 為 止 還 是 什 麼 都 沒 制 定 啊 是\n\n11\n00:03:46,921 --> 00:04:02,051\n請 主 委 這 個 部 分 要 回 去 要 審 慎 的 考 慮 另 外 主 委 您 在 報 告 的 第 一 頁 就 說 要 依 據 憲 法 法 庭 判 決 的 結 果 完 成 原 住 民 身 份 法 的 修 法 或 另 訂 專 法\n\n12\n00:04:03,433 --> 00:04:19,288\n讓 平 埔 族 可 以 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 。 那 憲 法 法 庭 給 的 期 限 是 1 1 4 年 1 0 月 2 7 號 前 要 完 成 。 那 請 問 原 民 會 目 前 是 朝 著 原 住 民 身 份 法 的 修 法 還 是 制 定 專 法 來 處 理 ?\n\n13\n00:04:20,970 --> 00:04:41,655\n我 們 是 朝 制 定 專 法 來 進 行 既 然 要 朝 制 定 專 法 來 進 行 的 話 我 們 知 道 剛 剛 也 有 很 多 委 員 提 到 對 於 我 們 原 住 民 產 生 的 衝 擊 非 常 的 大 不 管 是 各 方 面 接 下 來 我 也 要 跟 主 委 探 討 如 何 保 障 平 地 原 住 民 跟 山 地 原 住 民 的 權 益\n\n14\n00:04:42,355 --> 00:05:02,092\n因 為 賴 清 德 總 統 去 年 曾 經 請 原 民 會 要 審 慎 的 評 估 還 有 積 極 的 處 理 平 埔 族 正 名 之 後 的 後 續 的 法 治 工 作 讓 平 埔 族 的 身 份 認 同 感 獲 得 保 障 而 且 也 要 依 據 各 原 住 民 族 客 觀 的 需 求 國 家 資 源 的 分 配 為 原 則\n\n15\n00:05:02,893 --> 00:05:24,940\n回 復 平 埔 族 獲 得 民 族 身 份 之 後 的 相 關 權 利 請 問 一 下 主 委 您 剛 剛 有 提 到 平 埔 族 的 人 數 現 在 大 概 是 9 8 萬 人 那 目 前 3 地 原 住 民 和 平 地 原 住 民 加 起 來 是 5 9 萬 人 所 以 說 平 埔 族 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 之 後 既 有 的 資 源 會 不 會 被 稀 釋\n\n16\n00:05:27,048 --> 00:05:51,622\n我 們 是 先 讓 這 個 平 埔 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 那 至 於 潛 力 跟 義 務 我 們 後 續 再 來 還 有 還 要 再 做 一 些 這 個 因 為 剛 剛 提 到 的 這 個 人 數 的 比 例 你 會 知 道 原 來 的 山 園 跟 平 原 加 起 來 是 5 9 萬 平 埔 除 就 有 9 8 萬 了 所 以 說 如 果 以 這 樣 的 一 個 資 源 分 配 的 話 很 難 去 不 去 稀 釋 到 原 來 我 們 的 這 個 原 住 民 的 一 些 資 源\n\n17\n00:05:52,642 --> 00:06:03,105\n而 且 依 照 這 個 蔡 賴 清 德 總 統 的 邏 輯 , 平 補 族 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 之 後 , 那 個 主 委 認 為 原 民 會 的 預 算 要 增 加 多 少 才 夠 用 ? 差 不 多 , 如 果 是 這 樣 的 話 , 我 們 大 概 可 能 要 到 2 0 0 億 囉 。 對 啊 , 那 2 0 0 億 的 這 個 預 算 要 從 哪 裡 來 ?\n\n18\n00:06:18,322 --> 00:06:21,487\n我 是 跟 院 裡 面 來 做 報 告 、 依 法 來 編 這 樣 的 一 個 預 算\n\n19\n00:06:23,739 --> 00:06:42,911\n對 , 所 以 這 個 都 目 前 都 還 不 知 道 的 狀 況 之 下 那 主 委 第 一 個 要 推 動 的 就 是 評 普 處 的 這 個 證 明 是 這 個 原 住 民 身 份 法 所 以 都 還 沒 有 經 過 審 慎 的 評 估 那 如 果 你 現 在 說 金 額 預 算 要 增 加 2 0 0 億 那 就 會 排 擠 到 其 他 的 預 算 這 部 分 其 實 可 能 都 沒 有 辦 法 像 主 委 講 的 這 麼 的 這 麼 的 圓 滿 然 後 我 現 在 因 為 想 要 證 明\n\n20\n00:06:46,613 --> 00:07:15,334\n平 埔 族 所 以 我 後 續 的 問 題 都 可 以 就 是 自 然 的 解 決 我 覺 得 這 個 都 要 審 慎 的 評 估 而 不 是 一 味 的 說 我 先 來 推 動 讓 他 們 證 明 那 證 明 之 後 後 續 就 是 面 臨 到 這 麼 多 的 問 題 資 源 的 問 題 預 算 的 問 題 還 有 請 教 一 下 我 們 的 這 個 原 住 民 的 這 個 原 住 民 保 留 地 要 真 是 不 是 可 以 他 們 可 是 不 是 也 可 以 購 買 了 只 有 原 住 民 才 可 以 購 買 原 住 民 保 留 地 對 那 平 埔 族 呢 可 不 可 以 購 買\n\n21\n00:07:16,761 --> 00:07:22,846\n請 主 委 回 去 你 們 一 定 要 神 聖 的 評 估 不 要 為 了 說 因 為 這 是 賴 總 統 的 政 見 就 一 定 要 去 把 它 完 成 而 是 要 真 正 的 能 夠 照 顧 到 平 埔 族 照 顧 到 我 們 山 園 跟 平 原 的 權 益 是 好 謝 謝 還 有 兩 分 鐘\n\n22\n00:07:44,161 --> 00:07:49,562\n請 問 會 不 會 導 致 原 保 地 的 價 格 飆 漲 讓 實 際 生 活 在 部 落 的 原 住 民 會 買 不 起 原 保 地 ?\n\n23\n00:08:10,561 --> 00:08:19,451\n按 照 現 行 的 規 定 的 話 是 他 還 不 能 買 那 如 果 你 證 明 完 之 後 他 成 為 原 住 民 的 話 他 可 不 可 以 買\n\n24\n00:08:22,231 --> 00:08:47,931\n我 們 要 華 麗 另 外 有 訂 的 話 當 然 他 就 可 以 買 所 以 說 理 論 上 照 你 現 在 的 邏 輯 的 話 平 埔 族 可 以 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 那 他 既 然 有 原 住 民 身 份 他 照 理 說 可 以 買 原 保 地 那 他 可 以 購 買 原 保 地 可 能 就 會 造 成 原 來 的 原 保 地 的 價 格 不 要 漲 讓 大 家 都 漲 不 起 那 另 外 還 有 就 是 現 在 原 住 民 的 參 政 權 、 教 育 權 、 工 作 權 要 怎 麼 獲 得 保 障\n\n25\n00:08:49,865 --> 00:09:06,948\n現 有 的 這 個 原 住 民 的 參 政 權 你 看 比 如 我 們 立 委 有 六 席 還 有 各 地 的 不 管 是 議 員 、 代 表 這 些 我 們 本 來 都 有 一 個 原 住 民 的 一 些 名 額 那 現 在 好 你 把 評 估 出 證 明 之 後 這 些 參 政 權 你 要 怎 麼 保 障 教 育 權 、 工 作 權 要 怎 麼 保 障\n\n26\n00:09:07,611 --> 00:09:28,446\n就 利 於 法 委 員 的 部 分 是 要 修 憲 的 啦 那 至 於 地 方 制 度 法 的 那 就 是 回 歸 到 地 方 制 度 法 就 是 地 方 縣 市 議 員 啊 要 怎 麼 寫 那 是 回 歸 到 地 方 制 度 法 但 是 你 講 的 是 法 制 面 嘛 那 要 怎 麼 去 保 障 是 名 額 要 增 加 還 是 要 會 去 排 擠 到 現 有 的 名 額 這 個 可 能 到 時 候 都 要 請 原 民 會 這 邊 要 審 慎 來 評 估 以 上 謝 謝\n\n27\n00:09:31,784 --> 00:09:56,350\n非 常 謝 謝 許 宇 甄 委 員 的 質 詢 。 謝 謝 主 委 的 回 答 。 主 委 , 我 真 的 實 在 是 今 天 這 個 質 詢 的 這 個 問 題 是 真 的 很 重 要 的 一 個 問 題 。 而 且 您 在 今 天 的 報 告 也 列 為 第 一 個 部 分 。 你 在 今 年 九 月 底 要 把 法 律 草 案 函 報 行 政 院 , 十 一 月 底 要 通 過 行 政 院 控 函 送 大 院 。 感 覺 好 像 您 都 還 沒 有 準 備 好 。\n\n28\n00:09:57,090 --> 00:09:57,190\n請 議 事 宣 告\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4056\t4217\t珍竹葦\n13680\t42121\t鄭主委我想請教你關於原住民族的自治法你在你的書面報告裡提到就第五頁有提到行政院曾經五次送請立法院審議皆無法獲至共識逐漸推動原住民族自治法的兼具請問主委民進黨過去八年有沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案到立法院審議沒有跟委員報告沒有沒有為什麼\n45853\t54503\t因為你報告不是寫曾經五次嗎?但是過去八年民進黨一次都沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案。為什麼?\n55356\t81646\t後來沒有是因為就改用婚留立法的這個方式來進行。好。我想請教一下賴清德總統說他會找原住民社會各界一起討論並找出最好的做法讓原住民落實自治喔。那原住民族基本法的第四條也有明定喔。請問一下你們什麼時候要跟原住民社會各界討論?何時可以提出原住民自治法的草案送交立法院審議?\n82728\t107947\t跟委員報告原住民自治是真的是不容易但是至少到目前為止我們有先找幾個組像比如講這個太魯閣跟這個盧凱先做討論他們比較容易取得共識的這個族群是不是要來先做那我們目前這兩個組也正在討論的算是比較有一點點這個進度的這兩個部落了\n111089\t128998\t總共要跟多少族討論?我們陸續會跟16族來討論,像亞美的部分,亞美還有北南。那如果以這個速度來算,過去8年你現在跟兩個族討論,那這樣的話才要多久的時間才有可能討論完?\n133652\t161923\t我們盡快來完成幾個族群因為我知道主委剛上任我剛剛也聽了很多委員質詢主委是很勇於任事所以您都一直講盡快盡快但是盡快的意思就是沒有一個時辰所以還是希望說主委這邊還是要我們原民會還是要定出一個時辰還有你剛剛提到的分流立法因為其實以分流立法來說目前\n162783\t186864\t我們看到的是原住民因為其實像原住民基本法第20條有規定就是原住民也希望政府能夠早一點制定原住民族土地跟海域法就是依據你分流立法的概念一直說可以保障原住民土地跟海域的權益但是你們分流分到最後現在原住民族土地跟海域法有制定嗎?還沒有嗎?\n189728\t198185\t還沒有所以說你們現在是不想制定這個法案還是賴清德總統的想法還是主委您的想法\n200715\t225877\t我們會會啦這邊我們還會還會討論不會不會不會因為剛剛你講到分流立法的一個概念嗎可是我們現在看到是分流立法分到最後到最後什麼法都沒定所以其實應該是要回到這個原住民的這個這個自治法這個部分不要再用分流立法的方式因為其實分流立法到最後到目前為止還是什麼都沒制定啊是\n226921\t242051\t請主委這個部分要回去要審慎的考慮另外主委您在報告的第一頁就說要依據憲法法庭判決的結果完成原住民身份法的修法或另訂專法\n243433\t259288\t讓平埔族可以取得原住民的身份。那憲法法庭給的期限是114年10月27號前要完成。那請問原民會目前是朝著原住民身份法的修法還是制定專法來處理?\n260970\t281655\t我們是朝制定專法來進行既然要朝制定專法來進行的話我們知道剛剛也有很多委員提到對於我們原住民產生的衝擊非常的大不管是各方面接下來我也要跟主委探討如何保障平地原住民跟山地原住民的權益\n282355\t302092\t因為賴清德總統去年曾經請原民會要審慎的評估還有積極的處理平埔族正名之後的後續的法治工作讓平埔族的身份認同感獲得保障而且也要依據各原住民族客觀的需求國家資源的分配為原則\n302893\t324940\t回復平埔族獲得民族身份之後的相關權利請問一下主委您剛剛有提到平埔族的人數現在大概是98萬人那目前3地原住民和平地原住民加起來是59萬人所以說平埔族取得原住民的身份之後既有的資源會不會被稀釋\n327048\t351622\t我們是先讓這個平埔取得原住民的身份那至於潛力跟義務我們後續再來還有還要再做一些這個因為剛剛提到的這個人數的比例你會知道原來的山園跟平原加起來是59萬平埔除就有98萬了所以說如果以這樣的一個資源分配的話很難去不去稀釋到原來我們的這個原住民的一些資源\n352642\t363105\t而且依照這個蔡賴清德總統的邏輯,平補族取得原住民的身份之後,那個主委認為原民會的預算要增加多少才夠用?差不多,如果是這樣的話,我們大概可能要到200億囉。對啊,那200億的這個預算要從哪裡來?\n378322\t381487\t我是跟院裡面來做報告、依法來編這樣的一個預算\n383739\t402911\t對,所以這個都目前都還不知道的狀況之下那主委第一個要推動的就是評普處的這個證明是這個原住民身份法所以都還沒有經過審慎的評估那如果你現在說金額預算要增加200億那就會排擠到其他的預算這部分其實可能都沒有辦法像主委講的這麼的這麼的圓滿然後我現在因為想要證明\n406613\t435334\t平埔族所以我後續的問題都可以就是自然的解決我覺得這個都要審慎的評估而不是一味的說我先來推動讓他們證明那證明之後後續就是面臨到這麼多的問題資源的問題預算的問題還有請教一下我們的這個原住民的這個原住民保留地要真是不是可以他們可是不是也可以購買了只有原住民才可以購買原住民保留地對那平埔族呢可不可以購買\n436761\t442846\t請主委回去你們一定要神聖的評估不要為了說因為這是賴總統的政見就一定要去把它完成而是要真正的能夠照顧到平埔族照顧到我們山園跟平原的權益是好謝謝還有兩分鐘\n464161\t469562\t請問會不會導致原保地的價格飆漲讓實際生活在部落的原住民會買不起原保地?\n490561\t499451\t按照現行的規定的話是他還不能買那如果你證明完之後他成為原住民的話他可不可以買\n502231\t527931\t我們要華麗另外有訂的話當然他就可以買所以說理論上照你現在的邏輯的話平埔族可以取得原住民的身份那他既然有原住民身份他照理說可以買原保地那他可以購買原保地可能就會造成原來的原保地的價格不要漲讓大家都漲不起那另外還有就是現在原住民的參政權、教育權、工作權要怎麼獲得保障\n529865\t546948\t現有的這個原住民的參政權你看比如我們立委有六席還有各地的不管是議員、代表這些我們本來都有一個原住民的一些名額那現在好你把評估出證明之後這些參政權你要怎麼保障教育權、工作權要怎麼保障\n547611\t568446\t就利於法委員的部分是要修憲的啦那至於地方制度法的那就是回歸到地方制度法就是地方縣市議員啊要怎麼寫那是回歸到地方制度法但是你講的是法制面嘛那要怎麼去保障是名額要增加還是要會去排擠到現有的名額這個可能到時候都要請原民會這邊要審慎來評估以上 謝謝\n571784\t596350\t非常謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。謝謝主委的回答。主委,我真的實在是今天這個質詢的這個問題是真的很重要的一個問題。而且您在今天的報告也列為第一個部分。你在今年九月底要把法律草案函報行政院,十一月底要通過行政院控函送大院。感覺好像您都還沒有準備好。\n597090\t597190\t請議事宣告\n","txt":"珍竹葦\n鄭主委我想請教你關於原住民族的自治法你在你的書面報告裡提到就第五頁有提到行政院曾經五次送請立法院審議皆無法獲至共識逐漸推動原住民族自治法的兼具請問主委民進黨過去八年有沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案到立法院審議沒有跟委員報告沒有沒有為什麼\n因為你報告不是寫曾經五次嗎?但是過去八年民進黨一次都沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案。為什麼?\n後來沒有是因為就改用婚留立法的這個方式來進行。好。我想請教一下賴清德總統說他會找原住民社會各界一起討論並找出最好的做法讓原住民落實自治喔。那原住民族基本法的第四條也有明定喔。請問一下你們什麼時候要跟原住民社會各界討論?何時可以提出原住民自治法的草案送交立法院審議?\n跟委員報告原住民自治是真的是不容易但是至少到目前為止我們有先找幾個組像比如講這個太魯閣跟這個盧凱先做討論他們比較容易取得共識的這個族群是不是要來先做那我們目前這兩個組也正在討論的算是比較有一點點這個進度的這兩個部落了\n總共要跟多少族討論?我們陸續會跟16族來討論,像亞美的部分,亞美還有北南。那如果以這個速度來算,過去8年你現在跟兩個族討論,那這樣的話才要多久的時間才有可能討論完?\n我們盡快來完成幾個族群因為我知道主委剛上任我剛剛也聽了很多委員質詢主委是很勇於任事所以您都一直講盡快盡快但是盡快的意思就是沒有一個時辰所以還是希望說主委這邊還是要我們原民會還是要定出一個時辰還有你剛剛提到的分流立法因為其實以分流立法來說目前\n我們看到的是原住民因為其實像原住民基本法第20條有規定就是原住民也希望政府能夠早一點制定原住民族土地跟海域法就是依據你分流立法的概念一直說可以保障原住民土地跟海域的權益但是你們分流分到最後現在原住民族土地跟海域法有制定嗎?還沒有嗎?\n還沒有所以說你們現在是不想制定這個法案還是賴清德總統的想法還是主委您的想法\n我們會會啦這邊我們還會還會討論不會不會不會因為剛剛你講到分流立法的一個概念嗎可是我們現在看到是分流立法分到最後到最後什麼法都沒定所以其實應該是要回到這個原住民的這個這個自治法這個部分不要再用分流立法的方式因為其實分流立法到最後到目前為止還是什麼都沒制定啊是\n請主委這個部分要回去要審慎的考慮另外主委您在報告的第一頁就說要依據憲法法庭判決的結果完成原住民身份法的修法或另訂專法\n讓平埔族可以取得原住民的身份。那憲法法庭給的期限是114年10月27號前要完成。那請問原民會目前是朝著原住民身份法的修法還是制定專法來處理?\n我們是朝制定專法來進行既然要朝制定專法來進行的話我們知道剛剛也有很多委員提到對於我們原住民產生的衝擊非常的大不管是各方面接下來我也要跟主委探討如何保障平地原住民跟山地原住民的權益\n因為賴清德總統去年曾經請原民會要審慎的評估還有積極的處理平埔族正名之後的後續的法治工作讓平埔族的身份認同感獲得保障而且也要依據各原住民族客觀的需求國家資源的分配為原則\n回復平埔族獲得民族身份之後的相關權利請問一下主委您剛剛有提到平埔族的人數現在大概是98萬人那目前3地原住民和平地原住民加起來是59萬人所以說平埔族取得原住民的身份之後既有的資源會不會被稀釋\n我們是先讓這個平埔取得原住民的身份那至於潛力跟義務我們後續再來還有還要再做一些這個因為剛剛提到的這個人數的比例你會知道原來的山園跟平原加起來是59萬平埔除就有98萬了所以說如果以這樣的一個資源分配的話很難去不去稀釋到原來我們的這個原住民的一些資源\n而且依照這個蔡賴清德總統的邏輯,平補族取得原住民的身份之後,那個主委認為原民會的預算要增加多少才夠用?差不多,如果是這樣的話,我們大概可能要到200億囉。對啊,那200億的這個預算要從哪裡來?\n我是跟院裡面來做報告、依法來編這樣的一個預算\n對,所以這個都目前都還不知道的狀況之下那主委第一個要推動的就是評普處的這個證明是這個原住民身份法所以都還沒有經過審慎的評估那如果你現在說金額預算要增加200億那就會排擠到其他的預算這部分其實可能都沒有辦法像主委講的這麼的這麼的圓滿然後我現在因為想要證明\n平埔族所以我後續的問題都可以就是自然的解決我覺得這個都要審慎的評估而不是一味的說我先來推動讓他們證明那證明之後後續就是面臨到這麼多的問題資源的問題預算的問題還有請教一下我們的這個原住民的這個原住民保留地要真是不是可以他們可是不是也可以購買了只有原住民才可以購買原住民保留地對那平埔族呢可不可以購買\n請主委回去你們一定要神聖的評估不要為了說因為這是賴總統的政見就一定要去把它完成而是要真正的能夠照顧到平埔族照顧到我們山園跟平原的權益是好謝謝還有兩分鐘\n請問會不會導致原保地的價格飆漲讓實際生活在部落的原住民會買不起原保地?\n按照現行的規定的話是他還不能買那如果你證明完之後他成為原住民的話他可不可以買\n我們要華麗另外有訂的話當然他就可以買所以說理論上照你現在的邏輯的話平埔族可以取得原住民的身份那他既然有原住民身份他照理說可以買原保地那他可以購買原保地可能就會造成原來的原保地的價格不要漲讓大家都漲不起那另外還有就是現在原住民的參政權、教育權、工作權要怎麼獲得保障\n現有的這個原住民的參政權你看比如我們立委有六席還有各地的不管是議員、代表這些我們本來都有一個原住民的一些名額那現在好你把評估出證明之後這些參政權你要怎麼保障教育權、工作權要怎麼保障\n就利於法委員的部分是要修憲的啦那至於地方制度法的那就是回歸到地方制度法就是地方縣市議員啊要怎麼寫那是回歸到地方制度法但是你講的是法制面嘛那要怎麼去保障是名額要增加還是要會去排擠到現有的名額這個可能到時候都要請原民會這邊要審慎來評估以上 謝謝\n非常謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。謝謝主委的回答。主委,我真的實在是今天這個質詢的這個問題是真的很重要的一個問題。而且您在今天的報告也列為第一個部分。你在今年九月底要把法律草案函報行政院,十一月底要通過行政院控函送大院。感覺好像您都還沒有準備好。\n請議事宣告\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.056 --> 00:04.217\n珍 竹 葦\n\n00:13.680 --> 00:42.121\n鄭 主 委 我 想 請 教 你 關 於 原 住 民 族 的 自 治 法 你 在 你 的 書 面 報 告 裡 提 到 就 第 五 頁 有 提 到 行 政 院 曾 經 五 次 送 請 立 法 院 審 議 皆 無 法 獲 至 共 識 逐 漸 推 動 原 住 民 族 自 治 法 的 兼 具 請 問 主 委 民 進 黨 過 去 八 年 有 沒 有 提 出 原 住 民 族 自 治 法 的 草 案 到 立 法 院 審 議 沒 有 跟 委 員 報 告 沒 有 沒 有 為 什 麼\n\n00:45.853 --> 00:54.503\n因 為 你 報 告 不 是 寫 曾 經 五 次 嗎 ? 但 是 過 去 八 年 民 進 黨 一 次 都 沒 有 提 出 原 住 民 族 自 治 法 的 草 案 。 為 什 麼 ?\n\n00:55.356 --> 01:21.646\n後 來 沒 有 是 因 為 就 改 用 婚 留 立 法 的 這 個 方 式 來 進 行 。 好 。 我 想 請 教 一 下 賴 清 德 總 統 說 他 會 找 原 住 民 社 會 各 界 一 起 討 論 並 找 出 最 好 的 做 法 讓 原 住 民 落 實 自 治 喔 。 那 原 住 民 族 基 本 法 的 第 四 條 也 有 明 定 喔 。 請 問 一 下 你 們 什 麼 時 候 要 跟 原 住 民 社 會 各 界 討 論 ? 何 時 可 以 提 出 原 住 民 自 治 法 的 草 案 送 交 立 法 院 審 議 ?\n\n01:22.728 --> 01:47.947\n跟 委 員 報 告 原 住 民 自 治 是 真 的 是 不 容 易 但 是 至 少 到 目 前 為 止 我 們 有 先 找 幾 個 組 像 比 如 講 這 個 太 魯 閣 跟 這 個 盧 凱 先 做 討 論 他 們 比 較 容 易 取 得 共 識 的 這 個 族 群 是 不 是 要 來 先 做 那 我 們 目 前 這 兩 個 組 也 正 在 討 論 的 算 是 比 較 有 一 點 點 這 個 進 度 的 這 兩 個 部 落 了\n\n01:51.089 --> 02:08.998\n總 共 要 跟 多 少 族 討 論 ? 我 們 陸 續 會 跟 1 6 族 來 討 論 , 像 亞 美 的 部 分 , 亞 美 還 有 北 南 。 那 如 果 以 這 個 速 度 來 算 , 過 去 8 年 你 現 在 跟 兩 個 族 討 論 , 那 這 樣 的 話 才 要 多 久 的 時 間 才 有 可 能 討 論 完 ?\n\n02:13.652 --> 02:41.923\n我 們 盡 快 來 完 成 幾 個 族 群 因 為 我 知 道 主 委 剛 上 任 我 剛 剛 也 聽 了 很 多 委 員 質 詢 主 委 是 很 勇 於 任 事 所 以 您 都 一 直 講 盡 快 盡 快 但 是 盡 快 的 意 思 就 是 沒 有 一 個 時 辰 所 以 還 是 希 望 說 主 委 這 邊 還 是 要 我 們 原 民 會 還 是 要 定 出 一 個 時 辰 還 有 你 剛 剛 提 到 的 分 流 立 法 因 為 其 實 以 分 流 立 法 來 說 目 前\n\n02:42.783 --> 03:06.864\n我 們 看 到 的 是 原 住 民 因 為 其 實 像 原 住 民 基 本 法 第 2 0 條 有 規 定 就 是 原 住 民 也 希 望 政 府 能 夠 早 一 點 制 定 原 住 民 族 土 地 跟 海 域 法 就 是 依 據 你 分 流 立 法 的 概 念 一 直 說 可 以 保 障 原 住 民 土 地 跟 海 域 的 權 益 但 是 你 們 分 流 分 到 最 後 現 在 原 住 民 族 土 地 跟 海 域 法 有 制 定 嗎 ? 還 沒 有 嗎 ?\n\n03:09.728 --> 03:18.185\n還 沒 有 所 以 說 你 們 現 在 是 不 想 制 定 這 個 法 案 還 是 賴 清 德 總 統 的 想 法 還 是 主 委 您 的 想 法\n\n03:20.715 --> 03:45.877\n我 們 會 會 啦 這 邊 我 們 還 會 還 會 討 論 不 會 不 會 不 會 因 為 剛 剛 你 講 到 分 流 立 法 的 一 個 概 念 嗎 可 是 我 們 現 在 看 到 是 分 流 立 法 分 到 最 後 到 最 後 什 麼 法 都 沒 定 所 以 其 實 應 該 是 要 回 到 這 個 原 住 民 的 這 個 這 個 自 治 法 這 個 部 分 不 要 再 用 分 流 立 法 的 方 式 因 為 其 實 分 流 立 法 到 最 後 到 目 前 為 止 還 是 什 麼 都 沒 制 定 啊 是\n\n03:46.921 --> 04:02.051\n請 主 委 這 個 部 分 要 回 去 要 審 慎 的 考 慮 另 外 主 委 您 在 報 告 的 第 一 頁 就 說 要 依 據 憲 法 法 庭 判 決 的 結 果 完 成 原 住 民 身 份 法 的 修 法 或 另 訂 專 法\n\n04:03.433 --> 04:19.288\n讓 平 埔 族 可 以 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 。 那 憲 法 法 庭 給 的 期 限 是 1 1 4 年 1 0 月 2 7 號 前 要 完 成 。 那 請 問 原 民 會 目 前 是 朝 著 原 住 民 身 份 法 的 修 法 還 是 制 定 專 法 來 處 理 ?\n\n04:20.970 --> 04:41.655\n我 們 是 朝 制 定 專 法 來 進 行 既 然 要 朝 制 定 專 法 來 進 行 的 話 我 們 知 道 剛 剛 也 有 很 多 委 員 提 到 對 於 我 們 原 住 民 產 生 的 衝 擊 非 常 的 大 不 管 是 各 方 面 接 下 來 我 也 要 跟 主 委 探 討 如 何 保 障 平 地 原 住 民 跟 山 地 原 住 民 的 權 益\n\n04:42.355 --> 05:02.092\n因 為 賴 清 德 總 統 去 年 曾 經 請 原 民 會 要 審 慎 的 評 估 還 有 積 極 的 處 理 平 埔 族 正 名 之 後 的 後 續 的 法 治 工 作 讓 平 埔 族 的 身 份 認 同 感 獲 得 保 障 而 且 也 要 依 據 各 原 住 民 族 客 觀 的 需 求 國 家 資 源 的 分 配 為 原 則\n\n05:02.893 --> 05:24.940\n回 復 平 埔 族 獲 得 民 族 身 份 之 後 的 相 關 權 利 請 問 一 下 主 委 您 剛 剛 有 提 到 平 埔 族 的 人 數 現 在 大 概 是 9 8 萬 人 那 目 前 3 地 原 住 民 和 平 地 原 住 民 加 起 來 是 5 9 萬 人 所 以 說 平 埔 族 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 之 後 既 有 的 資 源 會 不 會 被 稀 釋\n\n05:27.048 --> 05:51.622\n我 們 是 先 讓 這 個 平 埔 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 那 至 於 潛 力 跟 義 務 我 們 後 續 再 來 還 有 還 要 再 做 一 些 這 個 因 為 剛 剛 提 到 的 這 個 人 數 的 比 例 你 會 知 道 原 來 的 山 園 跟 平 原 加 起 來 是 5 9 萬 平 埔 除 就 有 9 8 萬 了 所 以 說 如 果 以 這 樣 的 一 個 資 源 分 配 的 話 很 難 去 不 去 稀 釋 到 原 來 我 們 的 這 個 原 住 民 的 一 些 資 源\n\n05:52.642 --> 06:03.105\n而 且 依 照 這 個 蔡 賴 清 德 總 統 的 邏 輯 , 平 補 族 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 之 後 , 那 個 主 委 認 為 原 民 會 的 預 算 要 增 加 多 少 才 夠 用 ? 差 不 多 , 如 果 是 這 樣 的 話 , 我 們 大 概 可 能 要 到 2 0 0 億 囉 。 對 啊 , 那 2 0 0 億 的 這 個 預 算 要 從 哪 裡 來 ?\n\n06:18.322 --> 06:21.487\n我 是 跟 院 裡 面 來 做 報 告 、 依 法 來 編 這 樣 的 一 個 預 算\n\n06:23.739 --> 06:42.911\n對 , 所 以 這 個 都 目 前 都 還 不 知 道 的 狀 況 之 下 那 主 委 第 一 個 要 推 動 的 就 是 評 普 處 的 這 個 證 明 是 這 個 原 住 民 身 份 法 所 以 都 還 沒 有 經 過 審 慎 的 評 估 那 如 果 你 現 在 說 金 額 預 算 要 增 加 2 0 0 億 那 就 會 排 擠 到 其 他 的 預 算 這 部 分 其 實 可 能 都 沒 有 辦 法 像 主 委 講 的 這 麼 的 這 麼 的 圓 滿 然 後 我 現 在 因 為 想 要 證 明\n\n06:46.613 --> 07:15.334\n平 埔 族 所 以 我 後 續 的 問 題 都 可 以 就 是 自 然 的 解 決 我 覺 得 這 個 都 要 審 慎 的 評 估 而 不 是 一 味 的 說 我 先 來 推 動 讓 他 們 證 明 那 證 明 之 後 後 續 就 是 面 臨 到 這 麼 多 的 問 題 資 源 的 問 題 預 算 的 問 題 還 有 請 教 一 下 我 們 的 這 個 原 住 民 的 這 個 原 住 民 保 留 地 要 真 是 不 是 可 以 他 們 可 是 不 是 也 可 以 購 買 了 只 有 原 住 民 才 可 以 購 買 原 住 民 保 留 地 對 那 平 埔 族 呢 可 不 可 以 購 買\n\n07:16.761 --> 07:22.846\n請 主 委 回 去 你 們 一 定 要 神 聖 的 評 估 不 要 為 了 說 因 為 這 是 賴 總 統 的 政 見 就 一 定 要 去 把 它 完 成 而 是 要 真 正 的 能 夠 照 顧 到 平 埔 族 照 顧 到 我 們 山 園 跟 平 原 的 權 益 是 好 謝 謝 還 有 兩 分 鐘\n\n07:44.161 --> 07:49.562\n請 問 會 不 會 導 致 原 保 地 的 價 格 飆 漲 讓 實 際 生 活 在 部 落 的 原 住 民 會 買 不 起 原 保 地 ?\n\n08:10.561 --> 08:19.451\n按 照 現 行 的 規 定 的 話 是 他 還 不 能 買 那 如 果 你 證 明 完 之 後 他 成 為 原 住 民 的 話 他 可 不 可 以 買\n\n08:22.231 --> 08:47.931\n我 們 要 華 麗 另 外 有 訂 的 話 當 然 他 就 可 以 買 所 以 說 理 論 上 照 你 現 在 的 邏 輯 的 話 平 埔 族 可 以 取 得 原 住 民 的 身 份 那 他 既 然 有 原 住 民 身 份 他 照 理 說 可 以 買 原 保 地 那 他 可 以 購 買 原 保 地 可 能 就 會 造 成 原 來 的 原 保 地 的 價 格 不 要 漲 讓 大 家 都 漲 不 起 那 另 外 還 有 就 是 現 在 原 住 民 的 參 政 權 、 教 育 權 、 工 作 權 要 怎 麼 獲 得 保 障\n\n08:49.865 --> 09:06.948\n現 有 的 這 個 原 住 民 的 參 政 權 你 看 比 如 我 們 立 委 有 六 席 還 有 各 地 的 不 管 是 議 員 、 代 表 這 些 我 們 本 來 都 有 一 個 原 住 民 的 一 些 名 額 那 現 在 好 你 把 評 估 出 證 明 之 後 這 些 參 政 權 你 要 怎 麼 保 障 教 育 權 、 工 作 權 要 怎 麼 保 障\n\n09:07.611 --> 09:28.446\n就 利 於 法 委 員 的 部 分 是 要 修 憲 的 啦 那 至 於 地 方 制 度 法 的 那 就 是 回 歸 到 地 方 制 度 法 就 是 地 方 縣 市 議 員 啊 要 怎 麼 寫 那 是 回 歸 到 地 方 制 度 法 但 是 你 講 的 是 法 制 面 嘛 那 要 怎 麼 去 保 障 是 名 額 要 增 加 還 是 要 會 去 排 擠 到 現 有 的 名 額 這 個 可 能 到 時 候 都 要 請 原 民 會 這 邊 要 審 慎 來 評 估 以 上 謝 謝\n\n09:31.784 --> 09:56.350\n非 常 謝 謝 許 宇 甄 委 員 的 質 詢 。 謝 謝 主 委 的 回 答 。 主 委 , 我 真 的 實 在 是 今 天 這 個 質 詢 的 這 個 問 題 是 真 的 很 重 要 的 一 個 問 題 。 而 且 您 在 今 天 的 報 告 也 列 為 第 一 個 部 分 。 你 在 今 年 九 月 底 要 把 法 律 草 案 函 報 行 政 院 , 十 一 月 底 要 通 過 行 政 院 控 函 送 大 院 。 感 覺 好 像 您 都 還 沒 有 準 備 好 。\n\n09:57.090 --> 09:57.190\n請 議 事 宣 告\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.056,"end":4.217,"text":"珍竹葦"},{"start":13.68,"end":42.121,"text":"鄭主委我想請教你關於原住民族的自治法你在你的書面報告裡提到就第五頁有提到行政院曾經五次送請立法院審議皆無法獲至共識逐漸推動原住民族自治法的兼具請問主委民進黨過去八年有沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案到立法院審議沒有跟委員報告沒有沒有為什麼"},{"start":45.853,"end":54.503,"text":"因為你報告不是寫曾經五次嗎?但是過去八年民進黨一次都沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案。為什麼?"},{"start":55.356,"end":81.646,"text":"後來沒有是因為就改用婚留立法的這個方式來進行。好。我想請教一下賴清德總統說他會找原住民社會各界一起討論並找出最好的做法讓原住民落實自治喔。那原住民族基本法的第四條也有明定喔。請問一下你們什麼時候要跟原住民社會各界討論?何時可以提出原住民自治法的草案送交立法院審議?"},{"start":82.728,"end":107.947,"text":"跟委員報告原住民自治是真的是不容易但是至少到目前為止我們有先找幾個組像比如講這個太魯閣跟這個盧凱先做討論他們比較容易取得共識的這個族群是不是要來先做那我們目前這兩個組也正在討論的算是比較有一點點這個進度的這兩個部落了"},{"start":111.089,"end":128.998,"text":"總共要跟多少族討論?我們陸續會跟16族來討論,像亞美的部分,亞美還有北南。那如果以這個速度來算,過去8年你現在跟兩個族討論,那這樣的話才要多久的時間才有可能討論完?"},{"start":133.652,"end":161.923,"text":"我們盡快來完成幾個族群因為我知道主委剛上任我剛剛也聽了很多委員質詢主委是很勇於任事所以您都一直講盡快盡快但是盡快的意思就是沒有一個時辰所以還是希望說主委這邊還是要我們原民會還是要定出一個時辰還有你剛剛提到的分流立法因為其實以分流立法來說目前"},{"start":162.783,"end":186.864,"text":"我們看到的是原住民因為其實像原住民基本法第20條有規定就是原住民也希望政府能夠早一點制定原住民族土地跟海域法就是依據你分流立法的概念一直說可以保障原住民土地跟海域的權益但是你們分流分到最後現在原住民族土地跟海域法有制定嗎?還沒有嗎?"},{"start":189.728,"end":198.185,"text":"還沒有所以說你們現在是不想制定這個法案還是賴清德總統的想法還是主委您的想法"},{"start":200.715,"end":225.877,"text":"我們會會啦這邊我們還會還會討論不會不會不會因為剛剛你講到分流立法的一個概念嗎可是我們現在看到是分流立法分到最後到最後什麼法都沒定所以其實應該是要回到這個原住民的這個這個自治法這個部分不要再用分流立法的方式因為其實分流立法到最後到目前為止還是什麼都沒制定啊是"},{"start":226.921,"end":242.051,"text":"請主委這個部分要回去要審慎的考慮另外主委您在報告的第一頁就說要依據憲法法庭判決的結果完成原住民身份法的修法或另訂專法"},{"start":243.433,"end":259.288,"text":"讓平埔族可以取得原住民的身份。那憲法法庭給的期限是114年10月27號前要完成。那請問原民會目前是朝著原住民身份法的修法還是制定專法來處理?"},{"start":260.97,"end":281.655,"text":"我們是朝制定專法來進行既然要朝制定專法來進行的話我們知道剛剛也有很多委員提到對於我們原住民產生的衝擊非常的大不管是各方面接下來我也要跟主委探討如何保障平地原住民跟山地原住民的權益"},{"start":282.355,"end":302.092,"text":"因為賴清德總統去年曾經請原民會要審慎的評估還有積極的處理平埔族正名之後的後續的法治工作讓平埔族的身份認同感獲得保障而且也要依據各原住民族客觀的需求國家資源的分配為原則"},{"start":302.893,"end":324.94,"text":"回復平埔族獲得民族身份之後的相關權利請問一下主委您剛剛有提到平埔族的人數現在大概是98萬人那目前3地原住民和平地原住民加起來是59萬人所以說平埔族取得原住民的身份之後既有的資源會不會被稀釋"},{"start":327.048,"end":351.622,"text":"我們是先讓這個平埔取得原住民的身份那至於潛力跟義務我們後續再來還有還要再做一些這個因為剛剛提到的這個人數的比例你會知道原來的山園跟平原加起來是59萬平埔除就有98萬了所以說如果以這樣的一個資源分配的話很難去不去稀釋到原來我們的這個原住民的一些資源"},{"start":352.642,"end":363.105,"text":"而且依照這個蔡賴清德總統的邏輯,平補族取得原住民的身份之後,那個主委認為原民會的預算要增加多少才夠用?差不多,如果是這樣的話,我們大概可能要到200億囉。對啊,那200億的這個預算要從哪裡來?"},{"start":378.322,"end":381.487,"text":"我是跟院裡面來做報告、依法來編這樣的一個預算"},{"start":383.739,"end":402.911,"text":"對,所以這個都目前都還不知道的狀況之下那主委第一個要推動的就是評普處的這個證明是這個原住民身份法所以都還沒有經過審慎的評估那如果你現在說金額預算要增加200億那就會排擠到其他的預算這部分其實可能都沒有辦法像主委講的這麼的這麼的圓滿然後我現在因為想要證明"},{"start":406.613,"end":435.334,"text":"平埔族所以我後續的問題都可以就是自然的解決我覺得這個都要審慎的評估而不是一味的說我先來推動讓他們證明那證明之後後續就是面臨到這麼多的問題資源的問題預算的問題還有請教一下我們的這個原住民的這個原住民保留地要真是不是可以他們可是不是也可以購買了只有原住民才可以購買原住民保留地對那平埔族呢可不可以購買"},{"start":436.761,"end":442.846,"text":"請主委回去你們一定要神聖的評估不要為了說因為這是賴總統的政見就一定要去把它完成而是要真正的能夠照顧到平埔族照顧到我們山園跟平原的權益是好謝謝還有兩分鐘"},{"start":464.161,"end":469.562,"text":"請問會不會導致原保地的價格飆漲讓實際生活在部落的原住民會買不起原保地?"},{"start":490.561,"end":499.451,"text":"按照現行的規定的話是他還不能買那如果你證明完之後他成為原住民的話他可不可以買"},{"start":502.231,"end":527.931,"text":"我們要華麗另外有訂的話當然他就可以買所以說理論上照你現在的邏輯的話平埔族可以取得原住民的身份那他既然有原住民身份他照理說可以買原保地那他可以購買原保地可能就會造成原來的原保地的價格不要漲讓大家都漲不起那另外還有就是現在原住民的參政權、教育權、工作權要怎麼獲得保障"},{"start":529.865,"end":546.948,"text":"現有的這個原住民的參政權你看比如我們立委有六席還有各地的不管是議員、代表這些我們本來都有一個原住民的一些名額那現在好你把評估出證明之後這些參政權你要怎麼保障教育權、工作權要怎麼保障"},{"start":547.611,"end":568.446,"text":"就利於法委員的部分是要修憲的啦那至於地方制度法的那就是回歸到地方制度法就是地方縣市議員啊要怎麼寫那是回歸到地方制度法但是你講的是法制面嘛那要怎麼去保障是名額要增加還是要會去排擠到現有的名額這個可能到時候都要請原民會這邊要審慎來評估以上 謝謝"},{"start":571.784,"end":596.35,"text":"非常謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。謝謝主委的回答。主委,我真的實在是今天這個質詢的這個問題是真的很重要的一個問題。而且您在今天的報告也列為第一個部分。你在今年九月底要把法律草案函報行政院,十一月底要通過行政院控函送大院。感覺好像您都還沒有準備好。"},{"start":597.09,"end":597.19,"text":"請議事宣告"}]}}}}