{"id":153390,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153390","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebad270d818322be7348c05f44c04a464db446d6a815e913744c8222ff8187d84f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:36:53 - 11:46:49","影片長度":"00:09:56","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:36:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:46:49+08:00","duration":596,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-23"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":564,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時36分）好，林部長已經站在台上了。部長，這是你第一次到外交及國防委員會備詢，本席一開始有幾個問題先問你。"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：前面幾位委員有談到臺灣民主基金會的問題，第一個，本席想先問部長，臺灣民主基金會是不是臺灣非常重要的外交資源？"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：OK。第二個問題，臺灣整體的外交政策，最高的負責人是誰？"],["林部長佳龍：總統。"],["洪委員申翰：總統和外交部長，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：下面一件事情，其實大家都有看到，這次賴總統在就職演說提到很重要的一點，就是他會持續堅持蔡英文總統的四個堅持，尤其是裡面非常關鍵的一點，就是中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬這樣的概念。部長，你覺得外交部接下來會不會秉持四個堅持，尤其是中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬的概念，推動我們的外交政策？"],["林部長佳龍：會的。"],["洪委員申翰：好。剛才說的中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬的概念，其實不只是賴總統說，我們這幾天也看到大大小小的民調公司都把這句話拿去做民調，基本上在臺灣的民意支持度都是超過六成，甚至有部分民調超過七成，代表這也是有民意基礎的一個立場。","今天談到臺灣民主基金會的問題時，其實本席並不想談論任何個別人選的問題，本席只想說一件事情，如果臺灣民主基金會是我們外交上非常關鍵的資源，那臺灣民主基金會的運作、經營的方向，要不要符合剛剛說的，四個堅持當中，中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬這樣的概念？該不該？"],["林部長佳龍：應該。"],["洪委員申翰：所以部長，接下來臺灣民主基金會的執行長要怎麼產生？不管誰推薦、誰提名、誰指定、尊重誰，本席覺得這是一回事，大家都可以推薦，韓院長可以推薦，其他院長可以推薦，王金平院長也可以推薦，誰都可以推薦，本席覺得都很好，大家可以推薦各種人才。","但本席覺得有一件事情很重要，這個臺灣民主基金會的掌舵者、執行長，他必須認同中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個立場，本席覺得這是關鍵。如果他無法認同這個立場，或他無法執行這個立場，那我們整體的外交政策就會出現很大的扞格，甚至很有可能對我們的外交成效、成果產生影響，請問最後負責的是誰？"],["林部長佳龍：因為總統是國家元首，對外代表國家，外交權當然屬於總統。"],["洪委員申翰：所以本席要再強調一次，臺灣民主基金會人事任命的問題不是黨派的問題，這是責任政治的問題，因為如果我們的外交沒有搞好，我們的外交資源之間彼此扞格和衝突，大眾會找誰究責？會找外交部長啊！會找總統啊！這就是為什麼大家一直說執行長的人選需要尊重總統的原因，因為是總統負責，而不是因為他是哪一個黨派的問題。","所以部長，本席今天不談個別人選，本席對個別人選沒有意見，任何人推薦的人選都可以，大家可以儘量推薦。但本席認為這個執行長的人選，應該要認同中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬，這個清清楚楚而且帶有民意基礎的立場。應該沒有問題吧？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：好。所以本席今天不談個別人選，誰推薦的？本席都不介意，但是我們認為他要能夠滿足這個立場，他要能夠執行這個立場，不該有衝突。這個部分很簡單，臺灣民主基金會的問題，我們就說到這裡。"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：接下來本席要和你談下面一件事情，其實近期國際上有很多討論，大家都在討論一件事，就是關於中共的跨境鎮壓。部長，你有沒有聽過這四個字？"],["林部長佳龍：有的。"],["洪委員申翰：跨境鎮壓這四個字，其實中共的作法是很多元的，包括可能將臺灣人的出生地改成中國，或者是我們也看過的，過去他們曾經派人對我們的駐外人員動粗，騷擾、毆打臺灣的留學生，這些事情都曾經發生。我們也發現，例如今年3月的時候，當時還是駐美代表的蕭美琴副總統，她到捷克的時候，在布拉格機場被中國的外交人員尾隨，甚至是可能發生一些大家都不願意看到的意外。","也包括2000年的時候，我們看到當時駐斐濟的代表被毆打，當時有兩位中國外交人員闖入會場，甚至毆打我們的外交人員。今年4月的時候，我們也看到臺灣的留學生在中國駐美大使謝鋒演講時對他抗議，但是被不明人士拖走，後來發現這個不明人士不是一般人，也不是校方，而是中國的學聯主席。部長，現在各國都在討論中國的跨境鎮壓問題，外交部有沒有準備？"],["林部長佳龍：是，有。當然，我們除了保護國人在國外的安全和人權以外，對於中共想要透過長臂管轄或是所謂的跨境鎮壓，不只是對在海外的中國人，甚至是對其他國家的主權或內政，這個部分我們有積極和一些國家協商，共同應對。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們參考一下美國的作法，其實他們有提出類似跨境鎮壓的法案，這裡面很明確的要求，美國國務院應該每年在人權報告中詳述跨境鎮壓的相關事件、樣態，而且外交部門也要提出應對跨境鎮壓的戰略，編列預算培訓外交人員面對跨境鎮壓的辨識和理解，甚至需要設立跨境鎮壓的通報專線，依照這些通報擬定未來制裁的名單。","不是只有美國這麼做，歐洲理事會在2003年6月也有提出一份文件，談到歐洲理事會對跨境鎮壓反制的措施，包括第一個要建立跨境鎮壓的定義，制定防制的指導方針，再來是根據歐洲人權法院的判例，制定跨境鎮壓防制的建議，讓這些行為受到法律的制裁，讓受害人得到賠償。還有包括Freedom House等國家重要的NGO，其實最近都在談論跨境鎮壓這個主題。部長，剛才本席聽到你說的內容，本席覺得現在外交部針對相關跨境鎮壓議題的因應，好像還是太抽象了。"],["林部長佳龍：是。我想國外對這件事情的因應，以及採取的措施，我們應該積極的研究和合作，臺灣本身也應該要有一個完整的政策規劃。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，臺灣絕對是中國施以跨境鎮壓最核心的對象。"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：絕對是最核心的打壓對象。現在西方國家，美國、歐盟或是其他國家，包括NGO都不斷提出報告，本席為什麼這麼關心這個問題？因為我們自己就有國人、僑民很可能會遇到類似的問題，而且可能是他們重點打擊的對象，是他們重點鎮壓、騷擾、監控的對象。所以部長，本席要請你、國安局、國安單位，甚至是僑委會，大家要一起針對跨境鎮壓的問題，提出一個明確的應對策略方案。部長，應該沒有問題吧？"],["林部長佳龍：我們來推動。"],["洪委員申翰：本席覺得可以參考現在在國際上，包括這些專業的人權NGO，包括美國、歐盟目前已經提出的相關文件、作法。但照理來說，我們做這件事情的防範不應該在這些國家之後，我們應該比這些國家更敏感，因為我們是優先被打擊的對象。所以部長，你們多久可以針對這件事情提出一個大致的草案？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這涉及跨部會，我們會向國安會反映，外交部的部分也會先展開研究。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，三個月，可不可以？"],["林部長佳龍：好，可以。"],["洪委員申翰：三個月，不算短吧？對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：好的。"],["洪委員申翰：如果把跨部會的因素考慮進去，我們可以多給一點時間，沒有問題，但這就是臺灣現在在境外可能會遇到的事情，本席希望部長認真地把這件事情當一回事，甚至有需要的時候，我們還可以和這些國際重要的NGO組織一起合作，這樣也可以藉機把臺灣的國際合作網絡建立起來，本席覺得這是一件好事。應該可以吧？"],["林部長佳龍：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請林德福委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"153390","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153390","tool":"pyannote","id":"153390-pyannote"},"job_id":"FTRqSnxgS1OiCPgT","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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一 點 也 就 是 他 會 持 續 堅 持 蔡 英 文 總 統 的 四 個 堅 持 尤 其 這 裡 面 其 中 非 常 關 鍵 的 一 點 是\n\n3\n00:01:16,865 --> 00:01:38,246\n這 個 我 想 這 個 剛 剛 在 講 的 中 華 民 國 跟 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 互 不 隸 屬 的 這 個 概 念 其 實 我 想 也 不 只 是 賴 總 統 說 我 們 這 幾 天 其 實 看 到 大 大 小 小 的 民 調 這 句 話 拿 去 做 民 調 基 本 上 在 台 灣 的 民 意 支 持 度 都 是 超 過 六 成 甚 至 有 部 分 民 調 我 們 看 到 超 過 七 成 所 以 這 代 表 這 其 實 也 是 有 民 意 基 礎 的 一 句 話 民 意 基 礎 的 一 個 立 場\n\n4\n00:01:39,639 --> 00:02:06,592\n那 我 今 天 我 們 在 談 到 民 主 基 金 會 的 問 題 的 時 候 其 實 我 並 不 想 要 談 論 任 何 個 別 的 人 選 的 問 題 但 我 只 想 說 一 件 事 情 民 主 基 金 會 如 果 是 我 們 外 交 非 常 非 常 關 鍵 的 資 源 的 話 那 民 主 基 金 會 的 運 作 民 主 基 金 會 經 營 的 方 向 要 不 要 符 合 剛 剛 說 的 四 個 堅 持 裡 面 中 華 民 國 跟 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 互 不 隸 屬 這 樣 的 概 念 該 不 該\n\n5\n00:02:08,450 --> 00:02:23,638\n應 該 啊 , 所 以 部 長 今 天 接 下 來 當 然 明 武 基 金 會 的 執 行 長 他 要 怎 麼 產 生 那 不 管 誰 推 薦 、 誰 提 名 、 誰 指 定 、 尊 重 誰 我 覺 得 這 是 一 回 事 , 大 家 都 可 以 推 薦\n\n6\n00:02:25,032 --> 00:02:47,309\n韓 院 長 可 以 推 薦 或 其 他 的 院 長 也 都 可 以 推 薦 王 金 平 院 長 也 可 以 推 薦 誰 都 可 以 推 薦 有 各 方 的 我 覺 得 這 都 很 好 大 家 推 薦 各 種 人 才 來 但 我 覺 得 一 個 很 重 要 的 事 情 是 這 一 個 民 主 基 金 會 的 掌 舵 者 執 行 長 他 要 是 能 夠 認 同 中 華 民 國 與 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 互 不 隸 屬 這 個 立 場 的 我 覺 得 這 是 關 鍵\n\n7\n00:02:50,051 --> 00:03:08,673\n如 果 他 無 法 認 同 這 個 立 場 或 他 無 法 執 行 這 個 立 場 那 就 會 產 生 在 我 們 整 體 的 外 交 政 策 裡 面 出 現 很 大 的 憾 惡 甚 至 對 我 們 的 外 交 的 成 效 成 果 很 有 可 能 會 產 生 影 響 那 請 問 最 後 要 負 責 的 是 誰\n\n8\n00:03:11,947 --> 00:03:34,999\n總 統 是 國 家 元 首 對 外 代 表 國 家 那 外 交 權 當 然 是 總 統 所 以 我 要 再 強 調 一 次 民 主 基 金 會 的 人 事 任 命 的 問 題 不 是 一 個 黨 派 的 問 題 這 是 一 個 責 任 政 治 的 問 題 這 是 一 個 責 任 政 治 的 問 題 因 為 如 果 我 們 的 外 交 沒 有 搞 好 我 們 的 外 交 資 源 之 間 彼 此 漢 格 跟 衝 突 大 眾 會 找 誰 救 責\n\n9\n00:03:36,974 --> 00:04:01,079\n會 找 外 交 部 長 啊 會 找 總 統 啊 這 是 為 什 麼 大 家 一 直 說 這 個 執 行 長 的 人 選 需 要 尊 重 總 統 的 原 因 因 為 總 統 負 責 不 是 因 為 他 是 哪 一 個 黨 派 的 問 題 所 以 部 長 我 今 天 不 談 個 別 人 選 我 對 個 別 人 選 沒 有 意 見 任 何 人 推 薦 的 人 選 都 可 以 盡 量 來 推 薦 但 我 認 為 這 個 執 行 長 的 人 選 他 應 該 要 認 同\n\n10\n00:04:08,345 --> 00:04:37,691\n中 華 民 國 與 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 互 不 隸 屬 這 個 清 清 楚 楚 而 且 帶 有 民 意 基 礎 的 立 場 應 該 沒 有 問 題 吧 沒 有 問 題 所 以 我 今 天 不 談 個 別 人 選 誰 推 薦 的 我 都 不 介 意 但 是 我 們 認 為 他 要 能 夠 滿 足 這 個 立 場 他 要 能 夠 執 行 這 個 立 場 不 該 有 衝 突 很 簡 單 就 民 主 基 金 會 的 問 題 我 們 就 講 到 這 個 地 方 那 接 下 來 部 長 我 現 在 要 跟 你 談 下 面 一 個 事 情 其 實 近 期 國 際 上 面 有 很 多\n\n11\n00:04:39,997 --> 00:04:47,826\n近 期 國 際 上 有 很 多 的 討 論 都 在 討 論 一 個 是 關 於 中 共 的 跨 境 鎮 壓 部 長 你 有 沒 有 聽 過 這 四 個 字 有\n\n12\n00:04:49,814 --> 00:05:11,890\n這 四 個 字 跨 境 鎮 壓 其 實 中 共 的 做 法 其 實 是 很 多 元 的 包 括 可 能 將 台 灣 人 的 出 生 地 改 成 中 國 或 者 是 我 們 也 看 過 過 去 其 實 他 們 也 曾 經 派 人 對 我 們 的 駐 外 人 員 動 粗 騷 擾 毆 打 台 灣 的 留 學 生 都 有 我 們 當 然 發 現 比 方 在 今 年 3 月 的 時 候 當 時 還 是 駐 美 代 表 的 蕭 美 琴 這 個 副 總 統\n\n13\n00:05:12,711 --> 00:05:35,940\n他 去 到 捷 克 的 時 候 在 布 拉 格 機 場 裡 面 被 中 國 的 外 交 人 員 尾 隨 甚 至 會 發 生 一 些 其 實 大 家 不 願 意 看 到 的 意 外 的 可 能 也 包 括 2 0 0 0 年 的 時 候 我 們 看 到 我 們 當 時 駐 斐 基 的 代 表 其 實 就 有 兩 位 中 國 外 交 人 員 闖 入 會 場 甚 至 毆 打 我 們 的 外 交 人 員 今 年 4 月 的 時 候 我 們 也 看 到 台 灣 的 留 學 生 在\n\n14\n00:05:37,193 --> 00:05:38,533\n部 長 現 在 各 國 都 在 討 論 中 國 的 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 問 題 我 們 外 交 部 有 沒 有 準 備 ?\n\n15\n00:05:58,732 --> 00:06:11,570\n有 當 然 我 們 除 了 保 護 我 們 國 人 在 國 外 的 這 個 安 全 跟 他 的 人 權 以 外 那 對 應 我 想 中 共 想 要 透 過 一 種 常 備\n\n16\n00:06:12,972 --> 00:06:16,114\n部 長 我 們 參 考 一 下 現 在 接 下 來 看 那 個 美 國 他 們 其 實 有 提 的 類 似 像 是 一 個 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 法 案 這 裡 面 其 實 很 明 確 要 求\n\n17\n00:06:40,543 --> 00:07:02,009\n美 國 國 務 院 應 該 要 在 每 年 提 在 人 權 報 告 中 詳 述 跨 境 鎮 壓 相 關 的 事 件 樣 態 而 且 外 交 部 門 也 要 提 出 應 對 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 戰 略 也 要 編 列 預 算 培 訓 外 交 人 員 來 面 對 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 辨 識 跟 理 解 甚 至 需 要 設 立 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 通 報 的 專 線 依 照 這 些 通 報 的 專 線 來 擬 定 未 來 制 裁 的 名 單 這 不 是 只 有 美 國 再 往 下\n\n18\n00:07:03,916 --> 00:07:26,633\n我 們 在 歐 洲 的 理 事 會 2 0 2 3 年 的 6 月 其 實 他 有 一 份 文 件 談 到 歐 洲 理 事 會 對 跨 境 鎮 壓 反 制 的 措 施 包 括 第 一 個 要 建 立 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 定 義 和 制 定 防 制 的 指 導 方 針 再 來 是 根 據 歐 洲 人 權 法 院 的 判 例 來 制 定 跨 境 鎮 壓 防 制 的 建 議 那 要 讓 這 些 行 為 人 受 到 法 律 的 制 裁 讓 受 害 人 得 到 賠 償\n\n19\n00:07:28,524 --> 00:07:43,092\n還 有 包 括 F r e e d o m H o u s e 等 等 等 國 際 的 重 要 的 N G O 其 實 最 近 都 在 談 論 快 進 增 壓 這 個 主 題 部 長 剛 剛 我 如 果 剛 才 聽 你 講 的 話 我 覺 得 好 像 我 們 現 在 外 交 部 針 對 相 關 快 進 增 壓 議 題 的 因 應 好 像 還 太 抽 象 了\n\n20\n00:07:44,158 --> 00:07:52,444\n部 長 , 臺 灣 絕 對 是 中 國 要 施 以 跨 境 這 壓 最 核 心 的 對 象 , 絕 對 是 最 核 心 的 打 壓 的 對 象 , 相 比 於 現 在 西 方 國 家 , 美 國 , 歐 盟 , 或 者 是 其 他 的 國 家 , 包 括 現 在 N G O 都 不 斷 提 出 報 告 ,\n\n21\n00:08:14,278 --> 00:08:41,190\n我 為 什 麼 這 麼 關 心 這 個 問 題 因 為 我 們 自 己 就 有 相 關 的 國 人 僑 民 等 等 可 能 會 遇 到 類 似 的 問 題 而 且 可 能 是 他 們 重 點 在 打 擊 的 對 象 重 點 在 鎮 壓 騷 擾 監 控 的 對 象 所 以 部 長 我 覺 得 要 請 你 跟 包 括 我 們 的 國 安 局 國 安 單 位 甚 至 僑 委 會 大 家 要 一 起 針 對 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 問 題 提 出 一 個 明 確 的 應 對 的 策 略 的 方 案\n\n22\n00:08:42,741 --> 00:09:07,500\n部 長 這 應 該 沒 有 問 題 吧 我 們 來 推 動 好 不 好 那 我 覺 得 我 們 可 以 來 參 考 現 在 在 國 際 上 面 包 括 這 些 專 業 的 人 權 N G O 包 括 幾 個 這 個 美 國 歐 盟 他 們 目 前 其 實 已 經 出 來 的 相 關 的 文 件 的 做 法 但 照 理 來 說 我 做 這 件 事 情 的 防 範 我 們 不 應 該 在 這 些 國 家 之 後 我 們 照 理 來 說 應 該 比 這 些 國 家 更 敏 感 因 為 我 們 是 優 先 被 打 擊 的 對 象 啊\n\n23\n00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:26,391\n所 以 部 長 , 多 久 的 時 間 我 們 可 以 把 這 件 事 情 有 一 個 大 致 的 草 案 出 來 ? 因 為 這 涉 及 到 當 然 也 包 括 跨 部 會 , 那 我 們 來 跟 國 安 會 反 映 , 我 們 外 交 部 的 部 分 也 會 先 展 開 研 究 部 長 , 三 個 月 可 不 可 以 ?\n\n24\n00:09:27,301 --> 00:09:27,981\n好 , 可 以 。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n349\t25737\t林部長您站在台上了部長這當然你第一次到外交國防委員會來備詢我先開始有幾個問題先問你我看到前面有幾位委員有談到民主基金會的問題第一個我想先問部長民主基金會是不是台灣非常非常重要的外交資源是\n28046\t55736\t第二問題是臺灣整體我們的外交政策那最高的負責人是誰?總統跟外交部長那下面一件事情我想大家其實都有看到這次賴總統在他的就職演說上面提到了很重要的一點也就是他會持續堅持蔡英文總統的四個堅持尤其這裡面其中非常關鍵的一點是\n57073\t75128\t會．\n76865\t98246\t這個 我想這個剛剛在講的中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個概念其實我想也不只是賴總統說我們這幾天其實看到大大小小的民調這句話拿去做民調基本上在台灣的民意支持度都是超過六成甚至有部分民調我們看到超過七成所以這代表這其實也是有民意基礎的一句話民意基礎的一個立場\n99639\t126592\t那我今天我們在談到民主基金會的問題的時候其實我並不想要談論任何個別的人選的問題但我只想說一件事情民主基金會如果是我們外交非常非常關鍵的資源的話那民主基金會的運作民主基金會經營的方向要不要符合剛剛說的四個堅持裡面中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這樣的概念該不該\n128450\t143638\t應該啊,所以部長今天接下來當然明武基金會的執行長他要怎麼產生那不管誰推薦、誰提名、誰指定、尊重誰我覺得這是一回事,大家都可以推薦\n145032\t167309\t韓院長可以推薦或其他的院長也都可以推薦王金平院長也可以推薦誰都可以推薦有各方的我覺得這都很好大家推薦各種人才來但我覺得一個很重要的事情是這一個民主基金會的掌舵者執行長他要是能夠認同中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個立場的我覺得這是關鍵\n170051\t188673\t如果他無法認同這個立場或他無法執行這個立場那就會產生在我們整體的外交政策裡面出現很大的憾惡甚至對我們的外交的成效成果很有可能會產生影響那請問最後要負責的是誰\n191947\t214999\t總統是國家元首對外代表國家那外交權當然是總統所以我要再強調一次民主基金會的人事任命的問題不是一個黨派的問題這是一個責任政治的問題這是一個責任政治的問題因為如果我們的外交沒有搞好我們的外交資源之間彼此漢格跟衝突大眾會找誰救責\n216974\t241079\t會找外交部長啊會找總統啊這是為什麼大家一直說這個執行長的人選需要尊重總統的原因因為總統負責不是因為他是哪一個黨派的問題所以部長我今天不談個別人選我對個別人選沒有意見任何人推薦的人選都可以盡量來推薦但我認為這個執行長的人選他應該要認同\n248345\t277691\t中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個清清楚楚而且帶有民意基礎的立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題所以我今天不談個別人選誰推薦的我都不介意但是我們認為他要能夠滿足這個立場他要能夠執行這個立場不該有衝突很簡單就民主基金會的問題我們就講到這個地方那接下來部長我現在要跟你談下面一個事情其實近期國際上面有很多\n279997\t287826\t近期國際上有很多的討論都在討論一個是關於中共的跨境鎮壓部長你有沒有聽過這四個字有\n289814\t311890\t這四個字跨境鎮壓其實中共的做法其實是很多元的包括可能將台灣人的出生地改成中國或者是我們也看過過去其實他們也曾經派人對我們的駐外人員動粗騷擾毆打台灣的留學生都有我們當然發現比方在今年3月的時候當時還是駐美代表的蕭美琴這個副總統\n312711\t335940\t他去到捷克的時候在布拉格機場裡面被中國的外交人員尾隨甚至會發生一些其實大家不願意看到的意外的可能也包括2000年的時候我們看到我們當時駐斐基的代表其實就有兩位中國外交人員闖入會場甚至毆打我們的外交人員今年4月的時候我們也看到台灣的留學生在\n337193\t338533\t部長現在各國都在討論中國的跨境鎮壓的問題我們外交部有沒有準備?\n358732\t371570\t有當然我們除了保護我們國人在國外的這個安全跟他的人權以外那對應我想中共想要透過一種常備\n372972\t376114\t部長我們參考一下現在接下來看那個美國他們其實有提的類似像是一個跨境鎮壓的法案這裡面其實很明確要求\n400543\t422009\t美國國務院應該要在每年提在人權報告中詳述跨境鎮壓相關的事件樣態而且外交部門也要提出應對跨境鎮壓的戰略也要編列預算培訓外交人員來面對跨境鎮壓的辨識跟理解甚至需要設立跨境鎮壓的通報的專線依照這些通報的專線來擬定未來制裁的名單這不是只有美國再往下\n423916\t446633\t我們在歐洲的理事會2023年的6月其實他有一份文件談到歐洲理事會對跨境鎮壓反制的措施包括第一個要建立跨境鎮壓的定義和制定防制的指導方針再來是根據歐洲人權法院的判例來制定跨境鎮壓防制的建議那要讓這些行為人受到法律的制裁讓受害人得到賠償\n448524\t463092\t還有包括Freedom House等等等國際的重要的NGO其實最近都在談論快進增壓這個主題部長剛剛我如果剛才聽你講的話我覺得好像我們現在外交部針對相關快進增壓議題的因應好像還太抽象了\n464158\t472444\t部長,臺灣絕對是中國要施以跨境這壓最核心的對象,絕對是最核心的打壓的對象,相比於現在西方國家,美國,歐盟,或者是其他的國家,包括現在NGO都不斷提出報告,\n494278\t521190\t我為什麼這麼關心這個問題因為我們自己就有相關的國人僑民等等可能會遇到類似的問題而且可能是他們重點在打擊的對象重點在鎮壓騷擾監控的對象所以部長我覺得要請你跟包括我們的國安局國安單位甚至僑委會大家要一起針對跨境鎮壓的問題提出一個明確的應對的策略的方案\n522741\t547500\t部長這應該沒有問題吧我們來推動好不好那我覺得我們可以來參考現在在國際上面包括這些專業的人權NGO包括幾個這個美國歐盟他們目前其實已經出來的相關的文件的做法但照理來說我做這件事情的防範我們不應該在這些國家之後我們照理來說應該比這些國家更敏感因為我們是優先被打擊的對象啊\n548160\t566391\t所以部長,多久的時間我們可以把這件事情有一個大致的草案出來?因為這涉及到當然也包括跨部會,那我們來跟國安會反映,我們外交部的部分也會先展開研究部長,三個月可不可以?\n567301\t567981\t好,可以。\n","txt":"林部長您站在台上了部長這當然你第一次到外交國防委員會來備詢我先開始有幾個問題先問你我看到前面有幾位委員有談到民主基金會的問題第一個我想先問部長民主基金會是不是台灣非常非常重要的外交資源是\n第二問題是臺灣整體我們的外交政策那最高的負責人是誰?總統跟外交部長那下面一件事情我想大家其實都有看到這次賴總統在他的就職演說上面提到了很重要的一點也就是他會持續堅持蔡英文總統的四個堅持尤其這裡面其中非常關鍵的一點是\n會．\n這個 我想這個剛剛在講的中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個概念其實我想也不只是賴總統說我們這幾天其實看到大大小小的民調這句話拿去做民調基本上在台灣的民意支持度都是超過六成甚至有部分民調我們看到超過七成所以這代表這其實也是有民意基礎的一句話民意基礎的一個立場\n那我今天我們在談到民主基金會的問題的時候其實我並不想要談論任何個別的人選的問題但我只想說一件事情民主基金會如果是我們外交非常非常關鍵的資源的話那民主基金會的運作民主基金會經營的方向要不要符合剛剛說的四個堅持裡面中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這樣的概念該不該\n應該啊,所以部長今天接下來當然明武基金會的執行長他要怎麼產生那不管誰推薦、誰提名、誰指定、尊重誰我覺得這是一回事,大家都可以推薦\n韓院長可以推薦或其他的院長也都可以推薦王金平院長也可以推薦誰都可以推薦有各方的我覺得這都很好大家推薦各種人才來但我覺得一個很重要的事情是這一個民主基金會的掌舵者執行長他要是能夠認同中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個立場的我覺得這是關鍵\n如果他無法認同這個立場或他無法執行這個立場那就會產生在我們整體的外交政策裡面出現很大的憾惡甚至對我們的外交的成效成果很有可能會產生影響那請問最後要負責的是誰\n總統是國家元首對外代表國家那外交權當然是總統所以我要再強調一次民主基金會的人事任命的問題不是一個黨派的問題這是一個責任政治的問題這是一個責任政治的問題因為如果我們的外交沒有搞好我們的外交資源之間彼此漢格跟衝突大眾會找誰救責\n會找外交部長啊會找總統啊這是為什麼大家一直說這個執行長的人選需要尊重總統的原因因為總統負責不是因為他是哪一個黨派的問題所以部長我今天不談個別人選我對個別人選沒有意見任何人推薦的人選都可以盡量來推薦但我認為這個執行長的人選他應該要認同\n中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個清清楚楚而且帶有民意基礎的立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題所以我今天不談個別人選誰推薦的我都不介意但是我們認為他要能夠滿足這個立場他要能夠執行這個立場不該有衝突很簡單就民主基金會的問題我們就講到這個地方那接下來部長我現在要跟你談下面一個事情其實近期國際上面有很多\n近期國際上有很多的討論都在討論一個是關於中共的跨境鎮壓部長你有沒有聽過這四個字有\n這四個字跨境鎮壓其實中共的做法其實是很多元的包括可能將台灣人的出生地改成中國或者是我們也看過過去其實他們也曾經派人對我們的駐外人員動粗騷擾毆打台灣的留學生都有我們當然發現比方在今年3月的時候當時還是駐美代表的蕭美琴這個副總統\n他去到捷克的時候在布拉格機場裡面被中國的外交人員尾隨甚至會發生一些其實大家不願意看到的意外的可能也包括2000年的時候我們看到我們當時駐斐基的代表其實就有兩位中國外交人員闖入會場甚至毆打我們的外交人員今年4月的時候我們也看到台灣的留學生在\n部長現在各國都在討論中國的跨境鎮壓的問題我們外交部有沒有準備?\n有當然我們除了保護我們國人在國外的這個安全跟他的人權以外那對應我想中共想要透過一種常備\n部長我們參考一下現在接下來看那個美國他們其實有提的類似像是一個跨境鎮壓的法案這裡面其實很明確要求\n美國國務院應該要在每年提在人權報告中詳述跨境鎮壓相關的事件樣態而且外交部門也要提出應對跨境鎮壓的戰略也要編列預算培訓外交人員來面對跨境鎮壓的辨識跟理解甚至需要設立跨境鎮壓的通報的專線依照這些通報的專線來擬定未來制裁的名單這不是只有美國再往下\n我們在歐洲的理事會2023年的6月其實他有一份文件談到歐洲理事會對跨境鎮壓反制的措施包括第一個要建立跨境鎮壓的定義和制定防制的指導方針再來是根據歐洲人權法院的判例來制定跨境鎮壓防制的建議那要讓這些行為人受到法律的制裁讓受害人得到賠償\n還有包括Freedom House等等等國際的重要的NGO其實最近都在談論快進增壓這個主題部長剛剛我如果剛才聽你講的話我覺得好像我們現在外交部針對相關快進增壓議題的因應好像還太抽象了\n部長,臺灣絕對是中國要施以跨境這壓最核心的對象,絕對是最核心的打壓的對象,相比於現在西方國家,美國,歐盟,或者是其他的國家,包括現在NGO都不斷提出報告,\n我為什麼這麼關心這個問題因為我們自己就有相關的國人僑民等等可能會遇到類似的問題而且可能是他們重點在打擊的對象重點在鎮壓騷擾監控的對象所以部長我覺得要請你跟包括我們的國安局國安單位甚至僑委會大家要一起針對跨境鎮壓的問題提出一個明確的應對的策略的方案\n部長這應該沒有問題吧我們來推動好不好那我覺得我們可以來參考現在在國際上面包括這些專業的人權NGO包括幾個這個美國歐盟他們目前其實已經出來的相關的文件的做法但照理來說我做這件事情的防範我們不應該在這些國家之後我們照理來說應該比這些國家更敏感因為我們是優先被打擊的對象啊\n所以部長,多久的時間我們可以把這件事情有一個大致的草案出來?因為這涉及到當然也包括跨部會,那我們來跟國安會反映,我們外交部的部分也會先展開研究部長,三個月可不可以?\n好,可以。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.349 --> 00:25.737\n林 部 長 您 站 在 台 上 了 部 長 這 當 然 你 第 一 次 到 外 交 國 防 委 員 會 來 備 詢 我 先 開 始 有 幾 個 問 題 先 問 你 我 看 到 前 面 有 幾 位 委 員 有 談 到 民 主 基 金 會 的 問 題 第 一 個 我 想 先 問 部 長 民 主 基 金 會 是 不 是 台 灣 非 常 非 常 重 要 的 外 交 資 源 是\n\n00:28.046 --> 00:55.736\n第 二 問 題 是 臺 灣 整 體 我 們 的 外 交 政 策 那 最 高 的 負 責 人 是 誰 ? 總 統 跟 外 交 部 長 那 下 面 一 件 事 情 我 想 大 家 其 實 都 有 看 到 這 次 賴 總 統 在 他 的 就 職 演 說 上 面 提 到 了 很 重 要 的 一 點 也 就 是 他 會 持 續 堅 持 蔡 英 文 總 統 的 四 個 堅 持 尤 其 這 裡 面 其 中 非 常 關 鍵 的 一 點 是\n\n01:16.865 --> 01:38.246\n這 個 我 想 這 個 剛 剛 在 講 的 中 華 民 國 跟 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 互 不 隸 屬 的 這 個 概 念 其 實 我 想 也 不 只 是 賴 總 統 說 我 們 這 幾 天 其 實 看 到 大 大 小 小 的 民 調 這 句 話 拿 去 做 民 調 基 本 上 在 台 灣 的 民 意 支 持 度 都 是 超 過 六 成 甚 至 有 部 分 民 調 我 們 看 到 超 過 七 成 所 以 這 代 表 這 其 實 也 是 有 民 意 基 礎 的 一 句 話 民 意 基 礎 的 一 個 立 場\n\n01:39.639 --> 02:06.592\n那 我 今 天 我 們 在 談 到 民 主 基 金 會 的 問 題 的 時 候 其 實 我 並 不 想 要 談 論 任 何 個 別 的 人 選 的 問 題 但 我 只 想 說 一 件 事 情 民 主 基 金 會 如 果 是 我 們 外 交 非 常 非 常 關 鍵 的 資 源 的 話 那 民 主 基 金 會 的 運 作 民 主 基 金 會 經 營 的 方 向 要 不 要 符 合 剛 剛 說 的 四 個 堅 持 裡 面 中 華 民 國 跟 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 互 不 隸 屬 這 樣 的 概 念 該 不 該\n\n02:08.450 --> 02:23.638\n應 該 啊 , 所 以 部 長 今 天 接 下 來 當 然 明 武 基 金 會 的 執 行 長 他 要 怎 麼 產 生 那 不 管 誰 推 薦 、 誰 提 名 、 誰 指 定 、 尊 重 誰 我 覺 得 這 是 一 回 事 , 大 家 都 可 以 推 薦\n\n02:25.032 --> 02:47.309\n韓 院 長 可 以 推 薦 或 其 他 的 院 長 也 都 可 以 推 薦 王 金 平 院 長 也 可 以 推 薦 誰 都 可 以 推 薦 有 各 方 的 我 覺 得 這 都 很 好 大 家 推 薦 各 種 人 才 來 但 我 覺 得 一 個 很 重 要 的 事 情 是 這 一 個 民 主 基 金 會 的 掌 舵 者 執 行 長 他 要 是 能 夠 認 同 中 華 民 國 與 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 互 不 隸 屬 這 個 立 場 的 我 覺 得 這 是 關 鍵\n\n02:50.051 --> 03:08.673\n如 果 他 無 法 認 同 這 個 立 場 或 他 無 法 執 行 這 個 立 場 那 就 會 產 生 在 我 們 整 體 的 外 交 政 策 裡 面 出 現 很 大 的 憾 惡 甚 至 對 我 們 的 外 交 的 成 效 成 果 很 有 可 能 會 產 生 影 響 那 請 問 最 後 要 負 責 的 是 誰\n\n03:11.947 --> 03:34.999\n總 統 是 國 家 元 首 對 外 代 表 國 家 那 外 交 權 當 然 是 總 統 所 以 我 要 再 強 調 一 次 民 主 基 金 會 的 人 事 任 命 的 問 題 不 是 一 個 黨 派 的 問 題 這 是 一 個 責 任 政 治 的 問 題 這 是 一 個 責 任 政 治 的 問 題 因 為 如 果 我 們 的 外 交 沒 有 搞 好 我 們 的 外 交 資 源 之 間 彼 此 漢 格 跟 衝 突 大 眾 會 找 誰 救 責\n\n03:36.974 --> 04:01.079\n會 找 外 交 部 長 啊 會 找 總 統 啊 這 是 為 什 麼 大 家 一 直 說 這 個 執 行 長 的 人 選 需 要 尊 重 總 統 的 原 因 因 為 總 統 負 責 不 是 因 為 他 是 哪 一 個 黨 派 的 問 題 所 以 部 長 我 今 天 不 談 個 別 人 選 我 對 個 別 人 選 沒 有 意 見 任 何 人 推 薦 的 人 選 都 可 以 盡 量 來 推 薦 但 我 認 為 這 個 執 行 長 的 人 選 他 應 該 要 認 同\n\n04:08.345 --> 04:37.691\n中 華 民 國 與 中 華 人 民 共 和 國 互 不 隸 屬 這 個 清 清 楚 楚 而 且 帶 有 民 意 基 礎 的 立 場 應 該 沒 有 問 題 吧 沒 有 問 題 所 以 我 今 天 不 談 個 別 人 選 誰 推 薦 的 我 都 不 介 意 但 是 我 們 認 為 他 要 能 夠 滿 足 這 個 立 場 他 要 能 夠 執 行 這 個 立 場 不 該 有 衝 突 很 簡 單 就 民 主 基 金 會 的 問 題 我 們 就 講 到 這 個 地 方 那 接 下 來 部 長 我 現 在 要 跟 你 談 下 面 一 個 事 情 其 實 近 期 國 際 上 面 有 很 多\n\n04:39.997 --> 04:47.826\n近 期 國 際 上 有 很 多 的 討 論 都 在 討 論 一 個 是 關 於 中 共 的 跨 境 鎮 壓 部 長 你 有 沒 有 聽 過 這 四 個 字 有\n\n04:49.814 --> 05:11.890\n這 四 個 字 跨 境 鎮 壓 其 實 中 共 的 做 法 其 實 是 很 多 元 的 包 括 可 能 將 台 灣 人 的 出 生 地 改 成 中 國 或 者 是 我 們 也 看 過 過 去 其 實 他 們 也 曾 經 派 人 對 我 們 的 駐 外 人 員 動 粗 騷 擾 毆 打 台 灣 的 留 學 生 都 有 我 們 當 然 發 現 比 方 在 今 年 3 月 的 時 候 當 時 還 是 駐 美 代 表 的 蕭 美 琴 這 個 副 總 統\n\n05:12.711 --> 05:35.940\n他 去 到 捷 克 的 時 候 在 布 拉 格 機 場 裡 面 被 中 國 的 外 交 人 員 尾 隨 甚 至 會 發 生 一 些 其 實 大 家 不 願 意 看 到 的 意 外 的 可 能 也 包 括 2 0 0 0 年 的 時 候 我 們 看 到 我 們 當 時 駐 斐 基 的 代 表 其 實 就 有 兩 位 中 國 外 交 人 員 闖 入 會 場 甚 至 毆 打 我 們 的 外 交 人 員 今 年 4 月 的 時 候 我 們 也 看 到 台 灣 的 留 學 生 在\n\n05:37.193 --> 05:38.533\n部 長 現 在 各 國 都 在 討 論 中 國 的 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 問 題 我 們 外 交 部 有 沒 有 準 備 ?\n\n05:58.732 --> 06:11.570\n有 當 然 我 們 除 了 保 護 我 們 國 人 在 國 外 的 這 個 安 全 跟 他 的 人 權 以 外 那 對 應 我 想 中 共 想 要 透 過 一 種 常 備\n\n06:12.972 --> 06:16.114\n部 長 我 們 參 考 一 下 現 在 接 下 來 看 那 個 美 國 他 們 其 實 有 提 的 類 似 像 是 一 個 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 法 案 這 裡 面 其 實 很 明 確 要 求\n\n06:40.543 --> 07:02.009\n美 國 國 務 院 應 該 要 在 每 年 提 在 人 權 報 告 中 詳 述 跨 境 鎮 壓 相 關 的 事 件 樣 態 而 且 外 交 部 門 也 要 提 出 應 對 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 戰 略 也 要 編 列 預 算 培 訓 外 交 人 員 來 面 對 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 辨 識 跟 理 解 甚 至 需 要 設 立 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 通 報 的 專 線 依 照 這 些 通 報 的 專 線 來 擬 定 未 來 制 裁 的 名 單 這 不 是 只 有 美 國 再 往 下\n\n07:03.916 --> 07:26.633\n我 們 在 歐 洲 的 理 事 會 2 0 2 3 年 的 6 月 其 實 他 有 一 份 文 件 談 到 歐 洲 理 事 會 對 跨 境 鎮 壓 反 制 的 措 施 包 括 第 一 個 要 建 立 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 定 義 和 制 定 防 制 的 指 導 方 針 再 來 是 根 據 歐 洲 人 權 法 院 的 判 例 來 制 定 跨 境 鎮 壓 防 制 的 建 議 那 要 讓 這 些 行 為 人 受 到 法 律 的 制 裁 讓 受 害 人 得 到 賠 償\n\n07:28.524 --> 07:43.092\n還 有 包 括 F r e e d o m H o u s e 等 等 等 國 際 的 重 要 的 N G O 其 實 最 近 都 在 談 論 快 進 增 壓 這 個 主 題 部 長 剛 剛 我 如 果 剛 才 聽 你 講 的 話 我 覺 得 好 像 我 們 現 在 外 交 部 針 對 相 關 快 進 增 壓 議 題 的 因 應 好 像 還 太 抽 象 了\n\n07:44.158 --> 07:52.444\n部 長 , 臺 灣 絕 對 是 中 國 要 施 以 跨 境 這 壓 最 核 心 的 對 象 , 絕 對 是 最 核 心 的 打 壓 的 對 象 , 相 比 於 現 在 西 方 國 家 , 美 國 , 歐 盟 , 或 者 是 其 他 的 國 家 , 包 括 現 在 N G O 都 不 斷 提 出 報 告 ,\n\n08:14.278 --> 08:41.190\n我 為 什 麼 這 麼 關 心 這 個 問 題 因 為 我 們 自 己 就 有 相 關 的 國 人 僑 民 等 等 可 能 會 遇 到 類 似 的 問 題 而 且 可 能 是 他 們 重 點 在 打 擊 的 對 象 重 點 在 鎮 壓 騷 擾 監 控 的 對 象 所 以 部 長 我 覺 得 要 請 你 跟 包 括 我 們 的 國 安 局 國 安 單 位 甚 至 僑 委 會 大 家 要 一 起 針 對 跨 境 鎮 壓 的 問 題 提 出 一 個 明 確 的 應 對 的 策 略 的 方 案\n\n08:42.741 --> 09:07.500\n部 長 這 應 該 沒 有 問 題 吧 我 們 來 推 動 好 不 好 那 我 覺 得 我 們 可 以 來 參 考 現 在 在 國 際 上 面 包 括 這 些 專 業 的 人 權 N G O 包 括 幾 個 這 個 美 國 歐 盟 他 們 目 前 其 實 已 經 出 來 的 相 關 的 文 件 的 做 法 但 照 理 來 說 我 做 這 件 事 情 的 防 範 我 們 不 應 該 在 這 些 國 家 之 後 我 們 照 理 來 說 應 該 比 這 些 國 家 更 敏 感 因 為 我 們 是 優 先 被 打 擊 的 對 象 啊\n\n09:08.160 --> 09:26.391\n所 以 部 長 , 多 久 的 時 間 我 們 可 以 把 這 件 事 情 有 一 個 大 致 的 草 案 出 來 ? 因 為 這 涉 及 到 當 然 也 包 括 跨 部 會 , 那 我 們 來 跟 國 安 會 反 映 , 我 們 外 交 部 的 部 分 也 會 先 展 開 研 究 部 長 , 三 個 月 可 不 可 以 ?\n\n09:27.301 --> 09:27.981\n好 , 可 以 。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.349,"end":25.737,"text":"林部長您站在台上了部長這當然你第一次到外交國防委員會來備詢我先開始有幾個問題先問你我看到前面有幾位委員有談到民主基金會的問題第一個我想先問部長民主基金會是不是台灣非常非常重要的外交資源是"},{"start":28.046,"end":55.736,"text":"第二問題是臺灣整體我們的外交政策那最高的負責人是誰?總統跟外交部長那下面一件事情我想大家其實都有看到這次賴總統在他的就職演說上面提到了很重要的一點也就是他會持續堅持蔡英文總統的四個堅持尤其這裡面其中非常關鍵的一點是"},{"start":57.073,"end":75.128,"text":"會．"},{"start":76.865,"end":98.246,"text":"這個 我想這個剛剛在講的中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個概念其實我想也不只是賴總統說我們這幾天其實看到大大小小的民調這句話拿去做民調基本上在台灣的民意支持度都是超過六成甚至有部分民調我們看到超過七成所以這代表這其實也是有民意基礎的一句話民意基礎的一個立場"},{"start":99.639,"end":126.592,"text":"那我今天我們在談到民主基金會的問題的時候其實我並不想要談論任何個別的人選的問題但我只想說一件事情民主基金會如果是我們外交非常非常關鍵的資源的話那民主基金會的運作民主基金會經營的方向要不要符合剛剛說的四個堅持裡面中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這樣的概念該不該"},{"start":128.45,"end":143.638,"text":"應該啊,所以部長今天接下來當然明武基金會的執行長他要怎麼產生那不管誰推薦、誰提名、誰指定、尊重誰我覺得這是一回事,大家都可以推薦"},{"start":145.032,"end":167.309,"text":"韓院長可以推薦或其他的院長也都可以推薦王金平院長也可以推薦誰都可以推薦有各方的我覺得這都很好大家推薦各種人才來但我覺得一個很重要的事情是這一個民主基金會的掌舵者執行長他要是能夠認同中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個立場的我覺得這是關鍵"},{"start":170.051,"end":188.673,"text":"如果他無法認同這個立場或他無法執行這個立場那就會產生在我們整體的外交政策裡面出現很大的憾惡甚至對我們的外交的成效成果很有可能會產生影響那請問最後要負責的是誰"},{"start":191.947,"end":214.999,"text":"總統是國家元首對外代表國家那外交權當然是總統所以我要再強調一次民主基金會的人事任命的問題不是一個黨派的問題這是一個責任政治的問題這是一個責任政治的問題因為如果我們的外交沒有搞好我們的外交資源之間彼此漢格跟衝突大眾會找誰救責"},{"start":216.974,"end":241.079,"text":"會找外交部長啊會找總統啊這是為什麼大家一直說這個執行長的人選需要尊重總統的原因因為總統負責不是因為他是哪一個黨派的問題所以部長我今天不談個別人選我對個別人選沒有意見任何人推薦的人選都可以盡量來推薦但我認為這個執行長的人選他應該要認同"},{"start":248.345,"end":277.691,"text":"中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個清清楚楚而且帶有民意基礎的立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題所以我今天不談個別人選誰推薦的我都不介意但是我們認為他要能夠滿足這個立場他要能夠執行這個立場不該有衝突很簡單就民主基金會的問題我們就講到這個地方那接下來部長我現在要跟你談下面一個事情其實近期國際上面有很多"},{"start":279.997,"end":287.826,"text":"近期國際上有很多的討論都在討論一個是關於中共的跨境鎮壓部長你有沒有聽過這四個字有"},{"start":289.814,"end":311.89,"text":"這四個字跨境鎮壓其實中共的做法其實是很多元的包括可能將台灣人的出生地改成中國或者是我們也看過過去其實他們也曾經派人對我們的駐外人員動粗騷擾毆打台灣的留學生都有我們當然發現比方在今年3月的時候當時還是駐美代表的蕭美琴這個副總統"},{"start":312.711,"end":335.94,"text":"他去到捷克的時候在布拉格機場裡面被中國的外交人員尾隨甚至會發生一些其實大家不願意看到的意外的可能也包括2000年的時候我們看到我們當時駐斐基的代表其實就有兩位中國外交人員闖入會場甚至毆打我們的外交人員今年4月的時候我們也看到台灣的留學生在"},{"start":337.193,"end":338.533,"text":"部長現在各國都在討論中國的跨境鎮壓的問題我們外交部有沒有準備?"},{"start":358.732,"end":371.57,"text":"有當然我們除了保護我們國人在國外的這個安全跟他的人權以外那對應我想中共想要透過一種常備"},{"start":372.972,"end":376.114,"text":"部長我們參考一下現在接下來看那個美國他們其實有提的類似像是一個跨境鎮壓的法案這裡面其實很明確要求"},{"start":400.543,"end":422.009,"text":"美國國務院應該要在每年提在人權報告中詳述跨境鎮壓相關的事件樣態而且外交部門也要提出應對跨境鎮壓的戰略也要編列預算培訓外交人員來面對跨境鎮壓的辨識跟理解甚至需要設立跨境鎮壓的通報的專線依照這些通報的專線來擬定未來制裁的名單這不是只有美國再往下"},{"start":423.916,"end":446.633,"text":"我們在歐洲的理事會2023年的6月其實他有一份文件談到歐洲理事會對跨境鎮壓反制的措施包括第一個要建立跨境鎮壓的定義和制定防制的指導方針再來是根據歐洲人權法院的判例來制定跨境鎮壓防制的建議那要讓這些行為人受到法律的制裁讓受害人得到賠償"},{"start":448.524,"end":463.092,"text":"還有包括Freedom House等等等國際的重要的NGO其實最近都在談論快進增壓這個主題部長剛剛我如果剛才聽你講的話我覺得好像我們現在外交部針對相關快進增壓議題的因應好像還太抽象了"},{"start":464.158,"end":472.444,"text":"部長,臺灣絕對是中國要施以跨境這壓最核心的對象,絕對是最核心的打壓的對象,相比於現在西方國家,美國,歐盟,或者是其他的國家,包括現在NGO都不斷提出報告,"},{"start":494.278,"end":521.19,"text":"我為什麼這麼關心這個問題因為我們自己就有相關的國人僑民等等可能會遇到類似的問題而且可能是他們重點在打擊的對象重點在鎮壓騷擾監控的對象所以部長我覺得要請你跟包括我們的國安局國安單位甚至僑委會大家要一起針對跨境鎮壓的問題提出一個明確的應對的策略的方案"},{"start":522.741,"end":547.5,"text":"部長這應該沒有問題吧我們來推動好不好那我覺得我們可以來參考現在在國際上面包括這些專業的人權NGO包括幾個這個美國歐盟他們目前其實已經出來的相關的文件的做法但照理來說我做這件事情的防範我們不應該在這些國家之後我們照理來說應該比這些國家更敏感因為我們是優先被打擊的對象啊"},{"start":548.16,"end":566.391,"text":"所以部長,多久的時間我們可以把這件事情有一個大致的草案出來?因為這涉及到當然也包括跨部會,那我們來跟國安會反映,我們外交部的部分也會先展開研究部長,三個月可不可以?"},{"start":567.301,"end":567.981,"text":"好,可以。"}]}}}}