{"id":153411,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153411","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebacbffcb416dfb93f04622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e91374431a3708ee20255e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:19:19 - 12:27:12","影片長度":"00:07:53","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:19:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:27:12+08:00","duration":473,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":910,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時19分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請財政部莊部長和金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請莊部長、彭主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、主委好。根據我們剛通過的藐視國會法，如果你們答詢超過我們詢問的範圍，主席要制止，甚至要罰款，是不是這樣？你們知道嘛？當然主席根據我們的議事規則，如果詢問的人超出範圍，好像主席也要制止。","我們現在來看，還是跟我們的ESG有關啦！「低碳電係臺灣供電解方，促減碳要綠色融資配套」，我們來看一下過去，因為那時候部長跟主委都還沒上任，我當時在財委會質詢過當時的財政部長跟金管會主委，透過金融機構協力引資來落實ESG，以屏東的大潮州人工湖為例，其實在場很多公股行庫的副總有去過，可能現在都當總經理了。透過優惠貸款，我們可以讓政府去投資興建這樣的綠色公共建設，那麼促參的過程當中，也可以讓民間建設來參與，請問主委跟部長都認同這樣的做法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：認同。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，認同。ESG基本上，我就不再介紹了，這裡面的能源管理跟溫室氣體排放是現在的大宗。","現在臺灣的競爭對手的工業減碳措施跟投資，其實你看到在臺灣，政府有投入，但是在建廠補助跟綠色貸款的部分，目前相較於日本跟新加坡，我們是沒有的。","那麼氣候變遷因應法的子法，碳費三子法它有一個重點，它說我們碳費是經濟誘因，不是財政工具，所以碳費以成本來促進企業碳減量，但是有沒有提供財政方面的誘因來減輕事業的負擔？部長，你覺得有沒有？政府目前有沒有提供？目前。"],["莊部長翠雲：目前財政的誘因啊？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我直接告訴你，我是看不出有啦！主委，你覺得政府有提供相關的誘因嗎？也還沒有啦！","至於其他的國家，歐盟CBAM還有美國的清潔競爭法案，基本上都是針對基礎工業原料，那麼歐盟是透過了一個CBAM的憑證課碳關稅，美國也差不多如此。歐盟在2026已經要實施了，美國還在進行中。","我們看到淨零碳排跟企業發展，臺灣目前，包括中國、日本、韓國、新加坡等貿易對手，70個國家已經實施了碳定價，我再強調一次，碳定價不只是為了淨零碳排，在臺灣，更有我國臺灣出口產品競爭力的差別，是不是部長同意、主委同意？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，歐盟的CBAM大概是這樣，我就不再贅述，那臺灣碳費三子法的部分已經上路了，碳費有待環境部公告。","在美國的部分，有一個很重要的關鍵就是電力使用，在企業生產的時候，使用電力的排碳也會被納入計算。","再往下看，電力來了，最近國發會主委不斷地被問，新聞的標題寫「不排斥重啟核能有3原則」，第一，臺灣的用電，供電夠不夠？第二，最關鍵的，低碳電夠不夠？然後才是2050淨零碳排的目標。請問部長，你知道什麼是低碳電嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該是排碳要比較低的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委也瞭解低碳電？一般我們都把它直接稱為綠電。因為綠電有爭議啊！目前核電算不算綠電？部長，你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：核電算不算綠電，就我瞭解，因為在國外的時候，對於碳排放的足跡它會有一個RE100，但是核電並沒有被納入RE100。"],["鍾委員佳濱：RE不承認核電。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，RE100沒有放進去。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請教彭主委，可是歐盟卻將核電有條件的視為綠電，請問你知道什麼是有條件的綠電嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我知道綠電有條件，我沒有去研究它的條件是什麼。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我這邊就跟大家做分享，其實就是核廢的最終處置場必須跟人類的生活圈永遠隔離，目前最接近的只有芬蘭，之前童子賢董事長一直在提芬蘭的OL3，不是OL3特別便宜或OL3沒有核廢料，純粹是因為它在芬蘭，才有可能核電被採用。","如果綠電的需求持續增加，綠電夠嗎？這裡提到未來AI算力的需求會增加3成以上用電需求，但是1,000度的綠電只有1度是中小企業搶到，請問部長或主委，目前高科技產業或者中小企業的綠電不夠，未來我們繼續成長綠電，你覺得趕得上產業的需求嗎？你覺得目前就你們所知，臺灣的綠電增加。"],["莊部長翠雲：綠電這個部分，我們其實這幾年都一直非常努力在做，如果照國發會主委所說，AI的發展事實上它的用電量可能會更大，那就要看綠電能不能跟得上這樣的成長速度。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼主委你覺得臺灣目前要解決用電問題，核心關鍵是綠電，那綠電的成長趕得上我們的需求嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我同意剛才部長的意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。來，簡單講，再生能源憑證這幾年來，從2017年到2022年已經發出了三百五十多萬張，其中指數性的成長，證明過去在風光發電的部分提供了這些綠電憑證成長的基礎，所以結論，臺灣的用電需求終究要靠綠電，用低碳的電力來解決。","但是有一個問題來了，跟今天ESG有關的，就是為什麼中小企業買不到綠電？因為所有的再生能源業者他在發電設備的投資上要向銀行去貸款，銀行團要求這個發電業者販售對象，他賣電給誰，這個對象要有信用評等，必須符合兩項之一，一個是中華信評的評定達到3B或者是A-3以上的，或者過去5年的年用電逾5億度，請問你認為除了台積電等大型企業之外，臺灣的中小企業符合這個標準嗎？我這樣講，你們能夠理解嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：瞭解。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼我說綠色融資這麼重要？現在在場的這些公股行庫，這些銀行他們會貸款給誰？給這些再生能源的發電業者，但是發電業者他的客戶，他要賣綠電給誰？這個客戶本身必須年用電逾5億度啊！當然中小企業就搶不到綠電，所以這就是我今天說的，綠色融資的必要。","部長，你回去可以請你們財政部所屬銀行好好地評估一下，有沒有辦法去解套，不然的話，這些投資的風機未來不會賣電給小客戶，他就直接賣給台積電的大客戶，因為這樣他才能取得銀行的融資，可不可以要求你們的公股行庫做這個評估？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那主委呢？你覺得有什麼方法可以解套？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也來評估一下一般的銀行有沒有這樣的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後的結論，因為主席站起來了，請金管會跟財政部擬研議，未來對於企業生產設備的減碳措施提供綠色融資的鼓勵，不管是補貼利息、政府的擔保或者減碳設備的免稅優惠，這個大部分是財政部，請問財政部在相關職權的部分，可不可以給本席跟本委員會一個研究的評估報告？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們來研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概多久可以？我要跟國發會主委講一下，大概多久可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，是不是兩個月？"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以，兩個月接受，謝謝。那麼金管會如果能夠配合的話，也請金管會提供一個指引，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。謝謝主席，謝謝部長，謝謝主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢。","接著請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","接著請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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\"start\": 459.638, \"end\": 459.758, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"久\", \"start\": 459.758, \"end\": 459.918, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 459.918, \"end\": 460.058, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 460.058, \"end\": 460.078, \"score\": 0.464}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 460.498, \"end\": 460.658, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 460.658, \"end\": 460.758, \"score\": 0.316}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 460.758, \"end\": 460.779, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 460.779, \"end\": 460.799, \"score\": 0.017}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"en\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,554 --> 00:00:08,976\n有 請 財 政 部 莊 部 長 和 金 管 會 彭 主 委 有 請 莊 部 長 、 彭 主 委 委 員 好\n\n2\n00:00:24,476 --> 00:00:41,688\n部 長 好 、 主 委 好 根 據 我 們 剛 通 過 的 藐 視 國 會 法 如 果 質 詢 超 過 你 們 答 詢 超 過 我 們 詢 問 的 範 圍 主 席 要 制 止 甚 至 要 罰 款 是 不 是 這 樣 你 們 知 道 啦 當 然 主 席 根 據 我 們 的 議 事 規 則 如 果 詢 問 的 人 也 超 出 範 圍 好 像 主 席 要 制 止\n\n3\n00:00:43,094 --> 00:01:07,103\n我 還 是 跟 我 們 的 E S G 有 關 第 一 探 點 是 臺 灣 公 建 的 解 方 促 減 碳 要 綠 色 融 資 配 套 我 來 看 一 下 這 是 過 去 的 因 為 那 時 候 兩 位 部 長 跟 主 委 都 還 沒 上 任 請 看 下 一 頁 我 當 時 在 財 委 會 質 詢 過 當 時 的 財 政 部 長 跟 當 時 金 融 團 的 主 委 透 過 金 融 機 構 協 力 引 資 來 落 實 E S G 我 以 大 潮 州 、 屏 東 大 潮 州 的 人 工 湖 其 實 在 場 的 很 多 工 股 、 行 庫 的 副 總 有 去 過 可 能 現 在 都 當 總 經 理 了\n\n4\n00:01:08,644 --> 00:01:09,245\n主 委 跟 部 長 都 認 同 這 樣 做 法 嗎 ?\n\n5\n00:01:21,252 --> 00:01:47,724\n認 同 好 認 同 那 我 們 看 那 E S G 呢 我 基 本 上 我 就 不 再 介 紹 了 這 裡 面 能 源 管 理 跟 溫 室 氣 體 排 放 是 現 在 的 大 宗 往 下 看 那 麼 現 在 呢 我 們 的 台 灣 的 競 爭 對 手 的 工 業 減 碳 的 措 施 跟 投 資 其 實 你 看 到 在 台 灣 啊 政 府 有 投 入 但 是 呢 在 建 廠 補 助 跟 綠 色 貸 款 的 部 分 目 前 相 較 於 日 本 跟 新 加 坡 我 們 是 沒 有 的 好 那 接 下 來 我 們 往 下 看 那 麼 氣 候 變 遷 的 因 應 執 法 呢 碳 費 三 執 法 呢 它 有 一 個 重 點\n\n6\n00:01:48,504 --> 00:02:13,215\n他 說 , 我 們 碳 費 是 經 濟 誘 因 , 不 是 財 政 工 具 所 以 , 碳 費 以 成 本 來 促 進 企 業 碳 減 量 但 是 有 沒 有 提 供 財 政 方 面 的 誘 因 來 減 輕 事 業 的 負 擔 呢 ? 部 長 你 覺 得 有 沒 有 ? 政 府 目 前 有 沒 有 提 供 ? 目 前 財 政 的 誘 因 啊 我 直 接 告 訴 你 , 我 是 看 不 出 有 啦 那 主 委 你 覺 得 我 們 政 府 有 提 供 相 關 的 誘 因 嗎 ?\n\n7\n00:02:15,245 --> 00:02:15,265\n鍾 佳 濱 議 員\n\n8\n00:02:37,600 --> 00:03:06,138\n包 括 中 國 、 日 本 、 韓 國 、 新 加 坡 的 貿 易 對 手 7 0 個 國 家 已 經 實 施 了 探 定 價 那 我 再 強 調 一 次 探 定 價 不 只 是 為 了 淨 零 碳 排 在 臺 灣 更 有 我 國 臺 灣 出 口 產 品 競 爭 力 的 差 別 是 不 是 部 長 同 意 、 主 委 同 意 ? 是 的 好 那 我 們 往 下 繼 續 看 那 美 國 的 部 分 呢 在 歐 盟 的 C B A N 大 概 就 這 樣 我 就 不 再 贅 述 那 碳 執 法 、 碳 費 執 法 三 個 的 部 分 呢 已 經 上 路 了 那 碳 費 呢 有 在 環 境 部 公 報 那 往 下 看 那 美 國 的 事 情 呢 有 一 個 很 重 要 的 關 鍵 了\n\n9\n00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:28,173\n電 力 使 用 ． 在 生 產 時 使 用 的 電 力 的 排 碳 有 被 納 入 計 算 ． 好 再 往 下 看 ． 電 力 來 了 ． 最 近 國 安 會 主 委 不 斷 地 問 說 ． 標 題 寫 不 排 斥 重 啓 核 能 有 三 原 則 ． 第 一 臺 灣 的 用 電 供 電 夠 不 夠 ． 第 二 最 關 鍵 的 低 碳 電 夠 不 夠 ． 然 後 才 是 2 0 5 0 淨 零 碳 排 的 目 標 ． 請 問 一 下 部 長 你 知 道 什 麼 是 低 碳 電 嗎 ．\n\n10\n00:03:30,395 --> 00:03:43,622\n應 該 就 是 那 個 排 碳 算 是 要 比 較 低 的 主 委 也 是 了 解 低 碳 一 般 我 們 都 把 它 直 接 稱 為 綠 電 我 往 下 看 因 為 綠 電 有 爭 議 目 前 核 能 算 不 算 核 電 算 不 算 綠 電 部 長 你 的 看 法 呢\n\n11\n00:03:44,537 --> 00:04:03,656\n合 電 算 不 算 綠 電 ? 那 我 就 了 解 因 為 在 國 外 的 時 候 對 於 這 個 碳 排 放 的 一 個 足 跡 裡 面 它 會 有 一 個 R E 1 0 0 但 是 合 電 裡 面 它 並 沒 有 R 1 不 承 認 合 電 那 請 教 主 委 彭 主 委 那 可 是 歐 盟 卻 將 合 電 有 條 件 的 視 為 綠 電 請 問 你 知 道 什 麼 是 有 條 件 的 綠 電 嗎 ?\n\n12\n00:04:05,066 --> 00:04:28,256\n我 知 道 綠 電 有 條 件 , 我 沒 有 去 研 究 他 的 條 件 。 O K , 那 我 這 邊 就 跟 大 家 做 分 享 , 其 實 就 是 核 廢 的 最 終 處 置 場 必 須 跟 人 類 的 生 活 圈 永 遠 隔 離 , 目 前 最 接 近 的 只 有 芬 蘭 。 之 前 的 童 子 賢 董 事 長 一 直 在 提 芬 蘭 的 O L 3 不 是 O L 特 別 便 宜 , O L 3 特 別 便 宜 或 O L 3 的 沒 有 核 廢 掉 , 純 粹 是 因 為 他 在 芬 蘭 , 才 有 可 能 核 電 被 採 用 , 往 下 看 。\n\n13\n00:04:29,036 --> 00:04:52,752\n所 以 如 果 綠 電 的 需 求 持 續 增 加 , 綠 電 夠 嗎 ? 那 麼 這 裡 面 提 到 了 說 未 來 A I 會 計 算 力 的 需 求 會 增 加 三 成 以 上 用 電 需 求 但 是 一 千 度 的 用 綠 電 只 有 一 度 是 中 小 企 業 搶 到 請 問 部 長 或 主 委 目 前 高 科 技 產 業 或 者 中 小 企 業 綠 電 是 不 夠 那 未 來 的 需 求 我 們 繼 續 成 長 綠 電 你 覺 得 趕 得 上 產 業 的 需 求 嗎 ?\n\n14\n00:04:57,196 --> 00:04:57,456\n我 同 意 剛 才 部 長 的 意 見\n\n15\n00:05:22,878 --> 00:05:44,819\n好 很 好 那 我 們 現 在 看 來 簡 單 講 再 生 能 源 憑 證 這 幾 年 2 0 1 7 年 到 2 0 2 2 年 已 經 發 出 了 3 5 0 多 萬 張 其 中 指 數 性 的 成 長 證 明 過 去 在 風 光 發 電 的 部 分 提 供 了 這 些 綠 電 憑 證 成 長 的 基 礎 所 以 結 論 臺 灣 的 用 電 需 求 終 究 要 靠 綠 電 用 低 碳 的 電 力 來 解 決 但 是 有 一 個 問 題 來 了 就 是 今 天 跟 E S G 有 關 的 下 一 頁\n\n16\n00:05:45,760 --> 00:06:05,985\n就 是 說 為 什 麼 中 小 企 業 買 不 到 綠 電 因 為 所 有 的 財 政 業 者 他 在 發 電 設 備 的 投 資 上 要 讓 銀 行 去 做 貸 款 銀 行 團 要 求 這 個 發 電 業 者 呢 販 售 對 象 他 賣 電 給 誰 這 個 對 象 要 有 信 用 平 等 那 必 須 符 合 兩 項 之 一 一 個 是 中 華 信 憑 的 評 定 那 麼 3 B 或 者 是 A\n\n17\n00:06:06,625 --> 00:06:06,645\n鍾 佳 濱 議 員\n\n18\n00:06:21,024 --> 00:06:37,454\n為 什 麼 我 說 綠 色 融 資 這 麼 重 要 ? 現 在 在 場 的 工 股 行 鋪 這 些 銀 行 他 們 會 貸 款 給 誰 ? 給 這 些 再 生 能 源 的 發 電 業 者 但 是 發 電 業 者 他 的 客 戶 他 賣 這 個 綠 電 給 誰 ? 必 須 這 個 客 戶 本 身 年 用 電 用 度 於 5 億 度 啊\n\n19\n00:06:38,835 --> 00:07:05,305\n所 以 當 然 中 小 企 業 搶 不 到 綠 電 所 以 這 就 是 我 今 天 說 的 綠 色 融 資 的 必 要 部 長 你 回 去 可 以 請 你 們 的 財 政 部 所 屬 銀 行 好 好 的 評 估 一 下 有 沒 有 辦 法 去 解 套 不 然 的 話 未 來 這 些 投 資 的 風 機 他 未 來 的 客 戶 他 不 會 賣 給 小 客 戶 啊 他 說 直 接 賣 給 台 積 電 的 大 客 戶 因 為 這 樣 才 能 取 得 銀 行 的 融 資 可 不 可 以 要 求 你 們 的 公 股 行 戶 做 這 個 評 估 好 那 主 委 呢 覺 得 有 什 麼 方 法 可 以 解 套\n\n20\n00:07:06,853 --> 00:07:10,417\n我 們 也 來 評 估 一 下 我 們 現 在 一 般 的 銀 行 在 這 邊 有 沒 有 這 樣 的 規 定\n\n21\n00:07:11,963 --> 00:07:40,078\n好 最 後 的 結 論 主 席 站 起 來 請 金 管 會 跟 財 政 部 你 研 議 未 來 對 於 企 業 生 產 設 備 的 減 碳 措 施 提 供 綠 色 融 資 的 鼓 勵 不 管 是 補 貼 利 息 、 政 府 的 擔 保 或 者 減 碳 設 備 的 免 稅 優 惠 請 問 這 個 部 分 大 部 分 是 財 政 部 財 政 部 您 在 這 個 相 關 的 財 政 部 的 持 全 部 分 可 不 可 以 給 本 席 跟 本 委 員 一 個 研 究 的 一 個 評 估 報 告 我 們 來 研 議 是 那 大 概 可 以 多 久 我 要 跟 國 防 派 主 委 講 一 下 大 概 多 久 可 以\n\n22\n00:07:40,498 --> 00:07:40,799\n政 天 台 委 員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6554\t8976\t有請財政部莊部長和金管會彭主委有請莊部長、彭主委委員好\n24476\t41688\t部長好、主委好根據我們剛通過的藐視國會法如果質詢超過你們答詢超過我們詢問的範圍主席要制止甚至要罰款是不是這樣你們知道啦當然主席根據我們的議事規則如果詢問的人也超出範圍好像主席要制止\n43094\t67103\t我還是跟我們的ESG有關第一探點是臺灣公建的解方促減碳要綠色融資配套我來看一下這是過去的因為那時候兩位部長跟主委都還沒上任請看下一頁我當時在財委會質詢過當時的財政部長跟當時金融團的主委透過金融機構協力引資來落實ESG我以大潮州、屏東大潮州的人工湖其實在場的很多工股、行庫的副總有去過可能現在都當總經理了\n68644\t69245\t主委跟部長都認同這樣做法嗎?\n81252\t107724\t認同好認同那我們看那ESG呢我基本上我就不再介紹了這裡面能源管理跟溫室氣體排放是現在的大宗往下看那麼現在呢我們的台灣的競爭對手的工業減碳的措施跟投資其實你看到在台灣啊政府有投入但是呢在建廠補助跟綠色貸款的部分目前相較於日本跟新加坡我們是沒有的好那接下來我們往下看那麼氣候變遷的因應執法呢碳費三執法呢它有一個重點\n108504\t133215\t他說,我們碳費是經濟誘因,不是財政工具所以,碳費以成本來促進企業碳減量但是有沒有提供財政方面的誘因來減輕事業的負擔呢?部長你覺得有沒有?政府目前有沒有提供?目前財政的誘因啊我直接告訴你,我是看不出有啦那主委你覺得我們政府有提供相關的誘因嗎?\n135245\t135265\t鍾佳濱議員\n157600\t186138\t包括中國、日本、韓國、新加坡的貿易對手70個國家已經實施了探定價那我再強調一次探定價不只是為了淨零碳排在臺灣更有我國臺灣出口產品競爭力的差別是不是部長同意、主委同意?是的好 那我們往下繼續看那美國的部分呢在歐盟的CBAN大概就這樣我就不再贅述那碳執法、碳費執法三個的部分呢已經上路了那碳費呢有在環境部公報那往下看那美國的事情呢有一個很重要的關鍵了\n187479\t208173\t電力使用．在生產時使用的電力的排碳有被納入計算．好再往下看．電力來了．最近國安會主委不斷地問說．標題寫不排斥重啓核能有三原則．第一臺灣的用電供電夠不夠．第二最關鍵的低碳電夠不夠．然後才是2050淨零碳排的目標．請問一下部長你知道什麼是低碳電嗎．\n210395\t223622\t應該就是那個排碳算是要比較低的主委也是了解低碳一般我們都把它直接稱為綠電我往下看因為綠電有爭議目前核能算不算核電算不算綠電部長你的看法呢\n224537\t243656\t合電算不算綠電?那我就了解因為在國外的時候對於這個碳排放的一個足跡裡面它會有一個RE100但是合電裡面它並沒有R1不承認合電那請教主委彭主委那可是歐盟卻將合電有條件的視為綠電請問你知道什麼是有條件的綠電嗎?\n245066\t268256\t我知道綠電有條件,我沒有去研究他的條件。OK,那我這邊就跟大家做分享,其實就是核廢的最終處置場必須跟人類的生活圈永遠隔離,目前最接近的只有芬蘭。之前的童子賢董事長一直在提芬蘭的OL3不是OL特別便宜,OL3特別便宜或OL3的沒有核廢掉,純粹是因為他在芬蘭,才有可能核電被採用,往下看。\n269036\t292752\t所以如果綠電的需求持續增加,綠電夠嗎?那麼這裡面提到了說未來AI會計算力的需求會增加三成以上用電需求但是一千度的用綠電只有一度是中小企業搶到請問部長或主委目前高科技產業或者中小企業綠電是不夠那未來的需求我們繼續成長綠電你覺得趕得上產業的需求嗎?\n297196\t297456\t我同意剛才部長的意見\n322878\t344819\t好 很好 那我們現在看來 簡單講 再生能源憑證這幾年2017年到2022年已經發出了350多萬張其中指數性的成長 證明過去在風光發電的部分提供了這些綠電憑證成長的基礎所以結論 臺灣的用電需求 終究要靠綠電用低碳的電力來解決但是 有一個問題來了 就是今天跟ESG有關的下一頁\n345760\t365985\t就是說為什麼中小企業買不到綠電因為所有的財政業者他在發電設備的投資上要讓銀行去做貸款銀行團要求這個發電業者呢販售對象他賣電給誰這個對象要有信用平等那必須符合兩項之一一個是中華信憑的評定那麼3B或者是A\n366625\t366645\t鍾佳濱議員\n381024\t397454\t為什麼我說綠色融資這麼重要?現在在場的工股行鋪這些銀行他們會貸款給誰?給這些再生能源的發電業者但是發電業者他的客戶他賣這個綠電給誰?必須這個客戶本身年用電用度於5億度啊\n398835\t425305\t所以當然中小企業搶不到綠電所以這就是我今天說的綠色融資的必要部長你回去可以請你們的財政部所屬銀行好好的評估一下有沒有辦法去解套不然的話未來這些投資的風機他未來的客戶他不會賣給小客戶啊他說直接賣給台積電的大客戶因為這樣才能取得銀行的融資可不可以要求你們的公股行戶做這個評估好那主委呢覺得有什麼方法可以解套\n426853\t430417\t我們也來評估一下我們現在一般的銀行在這邊有沒有這樣的規定\n431963\t460078\t好 最後的結論主席站起來請金管會跟財政部你研議未來對於企業生產設備的減碳措施提供綠色融資的鼓勵不管是補貼利息、政府的擔保或者減碳設備的免稅優惠請問這個部分大部分是財政部財政部您在這個相關的財政部的持全部分可不可以給本席跟本委員一個研究的一個評估報告我們來研議是那大概可以多久我要跟國防派主委講一下大概多久可以\n460498\t460799\t政天台委員\n","txt":"有請財政部莊部長和金管會彭主委有請莊部長、彭主委委員好\n部長好、主委好根據我們剛通過的藐視國會法如果質詢超過你們答詢超過我們詢問的範圍主席要制止甚至要罰款是不是這樣你們知道啦當然主席根據我們的議事規則如果詢問的人也超出範圍好像主席要制止\n我還是跟我們的ESG有關第一探點是臺灣公建的解方促減碳要綠色融資配套我來看一下這是過去的因為那時候兩位部長跟主委都還沒上任請看下一頁我當時在財委會質詢過當時的財政部長跟當時金融團的主委透過金融機構協力引資來落實ESG我以大潮州、屏東大潮州的人工湖其實在場的很多工股、行庫的副總有去過可能現在都當總經理了\n主委跟部長都認同這樣做法嗎?\n認同好認同那我們看那ESG呢我基本上我就不再介紹了這裡面能源管理跟溫室氣體排放是現在的大宗往下看那麼現在呢我們的台灣的競爭對手的工業減碳的措施跟投資其實你看到在台灣啊政府有投入但是呢在建廠補助跟綠色貸款的部分目前相較於日本跟新加坡我們是沒有的好那接下來我們往下看那麼氣候變遷的因應執法呢碳費三執法呢它有一個重點\n他說,我們碳費是經濟誘因,不是財政工具所以,碳費以成本來促進企業碳減量但是有沒有提供財政方面的誘因來減輕事業的負擔呢?部長你覺得有沒有?政府目前有沒有提供?目前財政的誘因啊我直接告訴你,我是看不出有啦那主委你覺得我們政府有提供相關的誘因嗎?\n鍾佳濱議員\n包括中國、日本、韓國、新加坡的貿易對手70個國家已經實施了探定價那我再強調一次探定價不只是為了淨零碳排在臺灣更有我國臺灣出口產品競爭力的差別是不是部長同意、主委同意?是的好 那我們往下繼續看那美國的部分呢在歐盟的CBAN大概就這樣我就不再贅述那碳執法、碳費執法三個的部分呢已經上路了那碳費呢有在環境部公報那往下看那美國的事情呢有一個很重要的關鍵了\n電力使用．在生產時使用的電力的排碳有被納入計算．好再往下看．電力來了．最近國安會主委不斷地問說．標題寫不排斥重啓核能有三原則．第一臺灣的用電供電夠不夠．第二最關鍵的低碳電夠不夠．然後才是2050淨零碳排的目標．請問一下部長你知道什麼是低碳電嗎．\n應該就是那個排碳算是要比較低的主委也是了解低碳一般我們都把它直接稱為綠電我往下看因為綠電有爭議目前核能算不算核電算不算綠電部長你的看法呢\n合電算不算綠電?那我就了解因為在國外的時候對於這個碳排放的一個足跡裡面它會有一個RE100但是合電裡面它並沒有R1不承認合電那請教主委彭主委那可是歐盟卻將合電有條件的視為綠電請問你知道什麼是有條件的綠電嗎?\n我知道綠電有條件,我沒有去研究他的條件。OK,那我這邊就跟大家做分享,其實就是核廢的最終處置場必須跟人類的生活圈永遠隔離,目前最接近的只有芬蘭。之前的童子賢董事長一直在提芬蘭的OL3不是OL特別便宜,OL3特別便宜或OL3的沒有核廢掉,純粹是因為他在芬蘭,才有可能核電被採用,往下看。\n所以如果綠電的需求持續增加,綠電夠嗎?那麼這裡面提到了說未來AI會計算力的需求會增加三成以上用電需求但是一千度的用綠電只有一度是中小企業搶到請問部長或主委目前高科技產業或者中小企業綠電是不夠那未來的需求我們繼續成長綠電你覺得趕得上產業的需求嗎?\n我同意剛才部長的意見\n好 很好 那我們現在看來 簡單講 再生能源憑證這幾年2017年到2022年已經發出了350多萬張其中指數性的成長 證明過去在風光發電的部分提供了這些綠電憑證成長的基礎所以結論 臺灣的用電需求 終究要靠綠電用低碳的電力來解決但是 有一個問題來了 就是今天跟ESG有關的下一頁\n就是說為什麼中小企業買不到綠電因為所有的財政業者他在發電設備的投資上要讓銀行去做貸款銀行團要求這個發電業者呢販售對象他賣電給誰這個對象要有信用平等那必須符合兩項之一一個是中華信憑的評定那麼3B或者是A\n鍾佳濱議員\n為什麼我說綠色融資這麼重要?現在在場的工股行鋪這些銀行他們會貸款給誰?給這些再生能源的發電業者但是發電業者他的客戶他賣這個綠電給誰?必須這個客戶本身年用電用度於5億度啊\n所以當然中小企業搶不到綠電所以這就是我今天說的綠色融資的必要部長你回去可以請你們的財政部所屬銀行好好的評估一下有沒有辦法去解套不然的話未來這些投資的風機他未來的客戶他不會賣給小客戶啊他說直接賣給台積電的大客戶因為這樣才能取得銀行的融資可不可以要求你們的公股行戶做這個評估好那主委呢覺得有什麼方法可以解套\n我們也來評估一下我們現在一般的銀行在這邊有沒有這樣的規定\n好 最後的結論主席站起來請金管會跟財政部你研議未來對於企業生產設備的減碳措施提供綠色融資的鼓勵不管是補貼利息、政府的擔保或者減碳設備的免稅優惠請問這個部分大部分是財政部財政部您在這個相關的財政部的持全部分可不可以給本席跟本委員一個研究的一個評估報告我們來研議是那大概可以多久我要跟國防派主委講一下大概多久可以\n政天台委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.554 --> 00:08.976\n有 請 財 政 部 莊 部 長 和 金 管 會 彭 主 委 有 請 莊 部 長 、 彭 主 委 委 員 好\n\n00:24.476 --> 00:41.688\n部 長 好 、 主 委 好 根 據 我 們 剛 通 過 的 藐 視 國 會 法 如 果 質 詢 超 過 你 們 答 詢 超 過 我 們 詢 問 的 範 圍 主 席 要 制 止 甚 至 要 罰 款 是 不 是 這 樣 你 們 知 道 啦 當 然 主 席 根 據 我 們 的 議 事 規 則 如 果 詢 問 的 人 也 超 出 範 圍 好 像 主 席 要 制 止\n\n00:43.094 --> 01:07.103\n我 還 是 跟 我 們 的 E S G 有 關 第 一 探 點 是 臺 灣 公 建 的 解 方 促 減 碳 要 綠 色 融 資 配 套 我 來 看 一 下 這 是 過 去 的 因 為 那 時 候 兩 位 部 長 跟 主 委 都 還 沒 上 任 請 看 下 一 頁 我 當 時 在 財 委 會 質 詢 過 當 時 的 財 政 部 長 跟 當 時 金 融 團 的 主 委 透 過 金 融 機 構 協 力 引 資 來 落 實 E S G 我 以 大 潮 州 、 屏 東 大 潮 州 的 人 工 湖 其 實 在 場 的 很 多 工 股 、 行 庫 的 副 總 有 去 過 可 能 現 在 都 當 總 經 理 了\n\n01:08.644 --> 01:09.245\n主 委 跟 部 長 都 認 同 這 樣 做 法 嗎 ?\n\n01:21.252 --> 01:47.724\n認 同 好 認 同 那 我 們 看 那 E S G 呢 我 基 本 上 我 就 不 再 介 紹 了 這 裡 面 能 源 管 理 跟 溫 室 氣 體 排 放 是 現 在 的 大 宗 往 下 看 那 麼 現 在 呢 我 們 的 台 灣 的 競 爭 對 手 的 工 業 減 碳 的 措 施 跟 投 資 其 實 你 看 到 在 台 灣 啊 政 府 有 投 入 但 是 呢 在 建 廠 補 助 跟 綠 色 貸 款 的 部 分 目 前 相 較 於 日 本 跟 新 加 坡 我 們 是 沒 有 的 好 那 接 下 來 我 們 往 下 看 那 麼 氣 候 變 遷 的 因 應 執 法 呢 碳 費 三 執 法 呢 它 有 一 個 重 點\n\n01:48.504 --> 02:13.215\n他 說 , 我 們 碳 費 是 經 濟 誘 因 , 不 是 財 政 工 具 所 以 , 碳 費 以 成 本 來 促 進 企 業 碳 減 量 但 是 有 沒 有 提 供 財 政 方 面 的 誘 因 來 減 輕 事 業 的 負 擔 呢 ? 部 長 你 覺 得 有 沒 有 ? 政 府 目 前 有 沒 有 提 供 ? 目 前 財 政 的 誘 因 啊 我 直 接 告 訴 你 , 我 是 看 不 出 有 啦 那 主 委 你 覺 得 我 們 政 府 有 提 供 相 關 的 誘 因 嗎 ?\n\n02:15.245 --> 02:15.265\n鍾 佳 濱 議 員\n\n02:37.600 --> 03:06.138\n包 括 中 國 、 日 本 、 韓 國 、 新 加 坡 的 貿 易 對 手 7 0 個 國 家 已 經 實 施 了 探 定 價 那 我 再 強 調 一 次 探 定 價 不 只 是 為 了 淨 零 碳 排 在 臺 灣 更 有 我 國 臺 灣 出 口 產 品 競 爭 力 的 差 別 是 不 是 部 長 同 意 、 主 委 同 意 ? 是 的 好 那 我 們 往 下 繼 續 看 那 美 國 的 部 分 呢 在 歐 盟 的 C B A N 大 概 就 這 樣 我 就 不 再 贅 述 那 碳 執 法 、 碳 費 執 法 三 個 的 部 分 呢 已 經 上 路 了 那 碳 費 呢 有 在 環 境 部 公 報 那 往 下 看 那 美 國 的 事 情 呢 有 一 個 很 重 要 的 關 鍵 了\n\n03:07.479 --> 03:28.173\n電 力 使 用 ． 在 生 產 時 使 用 的 電 力 的 排 碳 有 被 納 入 計 算 ． 好 再 往 下 看 ． 電 力 來 了 ． 最 近 國 安 會 主 委 不 斷 地 問 說 ． 標 題 寫 不 排 斥 重 啓 核 能 有 三 原 則 ． 第 一 臺 灣 的 用 電 供 電 夠 不 夠 ． 第 二 最 關 鍵 的 低 碳 電 夠 不 夠 ． 然 後 才 是 2 0 5 0 淨 零 碳 排 的 目 標 ． 請 問 一 下 部 長 你 知 道 什 麼 是 低 碳 電 嗎 ．\n\n03:30.395 --> 03:43.622\n應 該 就 是 那 個 排 碳 算 是 要 比 較 低 的 主 委 也 是 了 解 低 碳 一 般 我 們 都 把 它 直 接 稱 為 綠 電 我 往 下 看 因 為 綠 電 有 爭 議 目 前 核 能 算 不 算 核 電 算 不 算 綠 電 部 長 你 的 看 法 呢\n\n03:44.537 --> 04:03.656\n合 電 算 不 算 綠 電 ? 那 我 就 了 解 因 為 在 國 外 的 時 候 對 於 這 個 碳 排 放 的 一 個 足 跡 裡 面 它 會 有 一 個 R E 1 0 0 但 是 合 電 裡 面 它 並 沒 有 R 1 不 承 認 合 電 那 請 教 主 委 彭 主 委 那 可 是 歐 盟 卻 將 合 電 有 條 件 的 視 為 綠 電 請 問 你 知 道 什 麼 是 有 條 件 的 綠 電 嗎 ?\n\n04:05.066 --> 04:28.256\n我 知 道 綠 電 有 條 件 , 我 沒 有 去 研 究 他 的 條 件 。 O K , 那 我 這 邊 就 跟 大 家 做 分 享 , 其 實 就 是 核 廢 的 最 終 處 置 場 必 須 跟 人 類 的 生 活 圈 永 遠 隔 離 , 目 前 最 接 近 的 只 有 芬 蘭 。 之 前 的 童 子 賢 董 事 長 一 直 在 提 芬 蘭 的 O L 3 不 是 O L 特 別 便 宜 , O L 3 特 別 便 宜 或 O L 3 的 沒 有 核 廢 掉 , 純 粹 是 因 為 他 在 芬 蘭 , 才 有 可 能 核 電 被 採 用 , 往 下 看 。\n\n04:29.036 --> 04:52.752\n所 以 如 果 綠 電 的 需 求 持 續 增 加 , 綠 電 夠 嗎 ? 那 麼 這 裡 面 提 到 了 說 未 來 A I 會 計 算 力 的 需 求 會 增 加 三 成 以 上 用 電 需 求 但 是 一 千 度 的 用 綠 電 只 有 一 度 是 中 小 企 業 搶 到 請 問 部 長 或 主 委 目 前 高 科 技 產 業 或 者 中 小 企 業 綠 電 是 不 夠 那 未 來 的 需 求 我 們 繼 續 成 長 綠 電 你 覺 得 趕 得 上 產 業 的 需 求 嗎 ?\n\n04:57.196 --> 04:57.456\n我 同 意 剛 才 部 長 的 意 見\n\n05:22.878 --> 05:44.819\n好 很 好 那 我 們 現 在 看 來 簡 單 講 再 生 能 源 憑 證 這 幾 年 2 0 1 7 年 到 2 0 2 2 年 已 經 發 出 了 3 5 0 多 萬 張 其 中 指 數 性 的 成 長 證 明 過 去 在 風 光 發 電 的 部 分 提 供 了 這 些 綠 電 憑 證 成 長 的 基 礎 所 以 結 論 臺 灣 的 用 電 需 求 終 究 要 靠 綠 電 用 低 碳 的 電 力 來 解 決 但 是 有 一 個 問 題 來 了 就 是 今 天 跟 E S G 有 關 的 下 一 頁\n\n05:45.760 --> 06:05.985\n就 是 說 為 什 麼 中 小 企 業 買 不 到 綠 電 因 為 所 有 的 財 政 業 者 他 在 發 電 設 備 的 投 資 上 要 讓 銀 行 去 做 貸 款 銀 行 團 要 求 這 個 發 電 業 者 呢 販 售 對 象 他 賣 電 給 誰 這 個 對 象 要 有 信 用 平 等 那 必 須 符 合 兩 項 之 一 一 個 是 中 華 信 憑 的 評 定 那 麼 3 B 或 者 是 A\n\n06:06.625 --> 06:06.645\n鍾 佳 濱 議 員\n\n06:21.024 --> 06:37.454\n為 什 麼 我 說 綠 色 融 資 這 麼 重 要 ? 現 在 在 場 的 工 股 行 鋪 這 些 銀 行 他 們 會 貸 款 給 誰 ? 給 這 些 再 生 能 源 的 發 電 業 者 但 是 發 電 業 者 他 的 客 戶 他 賣 這 個 綠 電 給 誰 ? 必 須 這 個 客 戶 本 身 年 用 電 用 度 於 5 億 度 啊\n\n06:38.835 --> 07:05.305\n所 以 當 然 中 小 企 業 搶 不 到 綠 電 所 以 這 就 是 我 今 天 說 的 綠 色 融 資 的 必 要 部 長 你 回 去 可 以 請 你 們 的 財 政 部 所 屬 銀 行 好 好 的 評 估 一 下 有 沒 有 辦 法 去 解 套 不 然 的 話 未 來 這 些 投 資 的 風 機 他 未 來 的 客 戶 他 不 會 賣 給 小 客 戶 啊 他 說 直 接 賣 給 台 積 電 的 大 客 戶 因 為 這 樣 才 能 取 得 銀 行 的 融 資 可 不 可 以 要 求 你 們 的 公 股 行 戶 做 這 個 評 估 好 那 主 委 呢 覺 得 有 什 麼 方 法 可 以 解 套\n\n07:06.853 --> 07:10.417\n我 們 也 來 評 估 一 下 我 們 現 在 一 般 的 銀 行 在 這 邊 有 沒 有 這 樣 的 規 定\n\n07:11.963 --> 07:40.078\n好 最 後 的 結 論 主 席 站 起 來 請 金 管 會 跟 財 政 部 你 研 議 未 來 對 於 企 業 生 產 設 備 的 減 碳 措 施 提 供 綠 色 融 資 的 鼓 勵 不 管 是 補 貼 利 息 、 政 府 的 擔 保 或 者 減 碳 設 備 的 免 稅 優 惠 請 問 這 個 部 分 大 部 分 是 財 政 部 財 政 部 您 在 這 個 相 關 的 財 政 部 的 持 全 部 分 可 不 可 以 給 本 席 跟 本 委 員 一 個 研 究 的 一 個 評 估 報 告 我 們 來 研 議 是 那 大 概 可 以 多 久 我 要 跟 國 防 派 主 委 講 一 下 大 概 多 久 可 以\n\n07:40.498 --> 07:40.799\n政 天 台 委 員\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.554,"end":8.976,"text":"有請財政部莊部長和金管會彭主委有請莊部長、彭主委委員好"},{"start":24.476,"end":41.688,"text":"部長好、主委好根據我們剛通過的藐視國會法如果質詢超過你們答詢超過我們詢問的範圍主席要制止甚至要罰款是不是這樣你們知道啦當然主席根據我們的議事規則如果詢問的人也超出範圍好像主席要制止"},{"start":43.094,"end":67.103,"text":"我還是跟我們的ESG有關第一探點是臺灣公建的解方促減碳要綠色融資配套我來看一下這是過去的因為那時候兩位部長跟主委都還沒上任請看下一頁我當時在財委會質詢過當時的財政部長跟當時金融團的主委透過金融機構協力引資來落實ESG我以大潮州、屏東大潮州的人工湖其實在場的很多工股、行庫的副總有去過可能現在都當總經理了"},{"start":68.644,"end":69.245,"text":"主委跟部長都認同這樣做法嗎?"},{"start":81.252,"end":107.724,"text":"認同好認同那我們看那ESG呢我基本上我就不再介紹了這裡面能源管理跟溫室氣體排放是現在的大宗往下看那麼現在呢我們的台灣的競爭對手的工業減碳的措施跟投資其實你看到在台灣啊政府有投入但是呢在建廠補助跟綠色貸款的部分目前相較於日本跟新加坡我們是沒有的好那接下來我們往下看那麼氣候變遷的因應執法呢碳費三執法呢它有一個重點"},{"start":108.504,"end":133.215,"text":"他說,我們碳費是經濟誘因,不是財政工具所以,碳費以成本來促進企業碳減量但是有沒有提供財政方面的誘因來減輕事業的負擔呢?部長你覺得有沒有?政府目前有沒有提供?目前財政的誘因啊我直接告訴你,我是看不出有啦那主委你覺得我們政府有提供相關的誘因嗎?"},{"start":135.245,"end":135.265,"text":"鍾佳濱議員"},{"start":157.6,"end":186.138,"text":"包括中國、日本、韓國、新加坡的貿易對手70個國家已經實施了探定價那我再強調一次探定價不只是為了淨零碳排在臺灣更有我國臺灣出口產品競爭力的差別是不是部長同意、主委同意?是的好 那我們往下繼續看那美國的部分呢在歐盟的CBAN大概就這樣我就不再贅述那碳執法、碳費執法三個的部分呢已經上路了那碳費呢有在環境部公報那往下看那美國的事情呢有一個很重要的關鍵了"},{"start":187.479,"end":208.173,"text":"電力使用．在生產時使用的電力的排碳有被納入計算．好再往下看．電力來了．最近國安會主委不斷地問說．標題寫不排斥重啓核能有三原則．第一臺灣的用電供電夠不夠．第二最關鍵的低碳電夠不夠．然後才是2050淨零碳排的目標．請問一下部長你知道什麼是低碳電嗎．"},{"start":210.395,"end":223.622,"text":"應該就是那個排碳算是要比較低的主委也是了解低碳一般我們都把它直接稱為綠電我往下看因為綠電有爭議目前核能算不算核電算不算綠電部長你的看法呢"},{"start":224.537,"end":243.656,"text":"合電算不算綠電?那我就了解因為在國外的時候對於這個碳排放的一個足跡裡面它會有一個RE100但是合電裡面它並沒有R1不承認合電那請教主委彭主委那可是歐盟卻將合電有條件的視為綠電請問你知道什麼是有條件的綠電嗎?"},{"start":245.066,"end":268.256,"text":"我知道綠電有條件,我沒有去研究他的條件。OK,那我這邊就跟大家做分享,其實就是核廢的最終處置場必須跟人類的生活圈永遠隔離,目前最接近的只有芬蘭。之前的童子賢董事長一直在提芬蘭的OL3不是OL特別便宜,OL3特別便宜或OL3的沒有核廢掉,純粹是因為他在芬蘭,才有可能核電被採用,往下看。"},{"start":269.036,"end":292.752,"text":"所以如果綠電的需求持續增加,綠電夠嗎?那麼這裡面提到了說未來AI會計算力的需求會增加三成以上用電需求但是一千度的用綠電只有一度是中小企業搶到請問部長或主委目前高科技產業或者中小企業綠電是不夠那未來的需求我們繼續成長綠電你覺得趕得上產業的需求嗎?"},{"start":297.196,"end":297.456,"text":"我同意剛才部長的意見"},{"start":322.878,"end":344.819,"text":"好 很好 那我們現在看來 簡單講 再生能源憑證這幾年2017年到2022年已經發出了350多萬張其中指數性的成長 證明過去在風光發電的部分提供了這些綠電憑證成長的基礎所以結論 臺灣的用電需求 終究要靠綠電用低碳的電力來解決但是 有一個問題來了 就是今天跟ESG有關的下一頁"},{"start":345.76,"end":365.985,"text":"就是說為什麼中小企業買不到綠電因為所有的財政業者他在發電設備的投資上要讓銀行去做貸款銀行團要求這個發電業者呢販售對象他賣電給誰這個對象要有信用平等那必須符合兩項之一一個是中華信憑的評定那麼3B或者是A"},{"start":366.625,"end":366.645,"text":"鍾佳濱議員"},{"start":381.024,"end":397.454,"text":"為什麼我說綠色融資這麼重要?現在在場的工股行鋪這些銀行他們會貸款給誰?給這些再生能源的發電業者但是發電業者他的客戶他賣這個綠電給誰?必須這個客戶本身年用電用度於5億度啊"},{"start":398.835,"end":425.305,"text":"所以當然中小企業搶不到綠電所以這就是我今天說的綠色融資的必要部長你回去可以請你們的財政部所屬銀行好好的評估一下有沒有辦法去解套不然的話未來這些投資的風機他未來的客戶他不會賣給小客戶啊他說直接賣給台積電的大客戶因為這樣才能取得銀行的融資可不可以要求你們的公股行戶做這個評估好那主委呢覺得有什麼方法可以解套"},{"start":426.853,"end":430.417,"text":"我們也來評估一下我們現在一般的銀行在這邊有沒有這樣的規定"},{"start":431.963,"end":460.078,"text":"好 最後的結論主席站起來請金管會跟財政部你研議未來對於企業生產設備的減碳措施提供綠色融資的鼓勵不管是補貼利息、政府的擔保或者減碳設備的免稅優惠請問這個部分大部分是財政部財政部您在這個相關的財政部的持全部分可不可以給本席跟本委員一個研究的一個評估報告我們來研議是那大概可以多久我要跟國防派主委講一下大概多久可以"},{"start":460.498,"end":460.799,"text":"政天台委員"}]}}}}