{"id":153421,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba1dc0de7b5929e8048c05f44c04a464db7e05e04cf895f8297bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:15:30 - 09:27:58","影片長度":"00:12:28","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:15:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T09:27:58+08:00","duration":748,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-23"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":61,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時15分）有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：很高興今天第一個質詢。當然，釗燮部長在任的這一段時間，我們其實質詢了滿多相關的問題，所以我先稍微綜整一下，然後再往下。我覺得有一個big picture，畢竟我們預算會期也快到了，我覺得對立法委員來講，要怎麼看預算能不能夠花在刀口上是一件重要的事情，所以我們今天最主要是想要問整體戰略上的一個問題。在之前的質詢裡面，我們不斷地跟外交部強調，就是外交部一定有必須要接觸的對象，這個對象可以分成最上面的政府跟國會，我們立法委員其實自己也是外交的一環。第二個就是針對比較中間的，智庫、學界跟公民組織，我們在質詢的時候也一直在強調，我們不是只有在接觸外國的公民組織而已，還包含現在INGO要怎麼在臺灣落地等等的問題。最後當然就是面對社會大眾，這個也是最困難的地方，所以我在之前的質詢也有特別提醒，以中國來講，現在他們針對社會大眾做的事特別多，他們想要藉由社會大眾反過來去影響他們的政府跟國會，所以才會有上次用TikTok打電話等等的事件，這些大概是我們之前質詢的幾個重點。","因為接下來要進入到預算會期，所以我們現在比較想要知道的是，我們除了這些面對的對象之外，目前是針對哪一些領域在做？畢竟外交的領域太多了，像剛剛有提到價值外交，我們可能有學術外交等各式各樣的，所以在這一邊，我認為畢竟我們現在面臨中國的威脅是最多的，在面臨中國的威脅之下，這是以前我在民間的時候整理的，就是中國在其他國家不同層面的滲透狀況，總共有9個不同的層面，我就不一一說了，但是以我們目前來講，外交部當然是著重在最右下角的Foreign Policy，也就是外交的部分，就像剛剛部長有提到的，我們在學術、留學等等之類，我們有我們的學術外交，也有剛剛提到的經濟上合作的經濟外交，我們也有文化上的，這應該是滿重要的，尤其針對一般的社會大眾。另外，剛剛也有提到聯大第2758號決議，這個部分就是Law Enforcement，今天我會比較聚焦在Law Enforcement這一塊，還有臺灣最強的，就是跟科技有關的外交層面，所以這幾個大概都是目前外交部有在著重的。","我今天想要問的事情是，假設我們在每一個國家，譬如在經濟外交、文化外交、學術外交，我們每一個都做的話，大概在預算上也沒有辦法支撐啦，畢竟範圍太大了，有太多的國家需要交朋友。以前我們在民間的時候，會去針對每一個國家做一些不同領域的盤點。我這邊很快地用一個例子來講，譬如右下角這個是美國，灰色的線是世界平均，紅色的線是目前中國滲透的狀況，我們可以看到美國最嚴重的是學術的部分，所以也就是說，假設我們今天針對美國在做任何外交行動的時候，當然包含我們跟政府等等之類的，很明顯它在學術被滲透的情況是最嚴重的，如果我們把它作為對中國的一個反制措施，我們可能要針對學術多做加強，這就是一種。","但另外一個我覺得比較妙的地方就是，譬如左下角是烏克蘭，烏克蘭其實有一些是低於平均的，譬如它在媒體的部分是低於平均的；柬埔寨在學術部分被中國滲透的情況是低於平均的。在這三個月之內，我們在觀察外交現況的時候發現一件事情，現在中國不是只有針對它本來很強的部分在做，它反而會針對比較弱的地方去做，譬如它對國家學術的部分做得不夠，在這幾個月，尤其是在520之前，它反而是特別針對弱的地方在做補強，所以簡單來講，我認為我們今天針對外交的抵抗，或者在交朋友的過程當中，我們要針對中國做得很多、很強的地方反制，要注意到它沒做好的地方現在反而花最多資源，因為中國也想要把他們的資源花在刀口上。這個當然是我們現在的whole picture，我相信外交部有自己的戰略判斷，我們只是拿民間做的資料，這不代表是正確的，外交部自己在外館的判斷應該還是最正確的。接下來的會期我想要知道，譬如說我們在這個國家的判斷在哪個地方不足，在哪個地方中國做最多，我們可能要針對那個地方加強，這大概是之前質詢講的問題。","接下來我就進入比較細節的部分，第一個就是奧地利，最近新聞報導奧地利不承認我們的駕照，這個很麻煩，因為在歐洲開車有時候你一下開到德國，一下開到奧地利，一下又開到德國，所以你到一半的時候會變無照駕駛。這個部分畢竟跟剛剛講的執法相關，2758號決議是大的，跟國際比較相關。我現在想知道的事情是，像這一件事情發生是因為官方不承認，還是只是因為地方的租車公司把我們列為中國的一省，所以沒有辦法在這邊被承認，因此沒有辦法運作？這兩個方向差滿多的，一個是比較官方的，一個是屬於像航空公司把我們列為一省的問題。不知道目前就這個方向的掌握如何？"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。我們當然會先溝通協調，外交也是對等互惠，如果對方是基於政治的原因，我們同樣也會採取反應，就是互相承認跟互相都不承認。畢竟奧地利還是一個民主國家，我相信在歐盟會經過大家充分討論。既然歐盟要整合，我們希望大家在這裡面的交通能夠順暢，也讓國際間的駕照相互承認跟使用。我們會先確認這個問題出在哪裡，也有對應的措施。"],["沈委員伯洋：如果它跟官方有關可能尚且簡單，畢竟可以跟官方溝通，怕就怕它是個別的公司導致。如果我們真的要去影響個別的公司的話，變成我們對他們整體社會、文化的影響到什麼程度，跟我們在在地的媒體、宣傳等等就會高度相關。這個部分到底是往哪個方向，希望未來有掌握，之後我們再來追這一題。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來，當然它的手段是什麼我也覺得很重要，畢竟「影響」這件事情來講，它可能是威脅，也有可能是利誘，到底中國在奧地利是利誘做得比較多，還是威脅做得比較多，說真的，我們現在在霧裡看花。之前在5月24日，大概一個禮拜前，我發現有一些新聞報導，奧地利的一些特工專門蒐集這些機密資訊給俄羅斯的情報機構，並協助俄羅斯的特工搶劫一名試圖曝光俄羅斯間諜的外國記者的公寓，他們的國會也開始注意到，這個雖然不是跟中國有關，但很明顯的是，利誘可能真的要花太多錢，這種事情對他們來講比較簡單，如果這種威脅的情勢已經是跟俄羅斯合作發生，我認為中國可能也不遑多讓，這可能是我們在奧地利必須注意的問題。","接下來澳洲的部分，他參與我們的520，回去以後滿多人遇到中國大使館說要餐敘一下，威脅他們不能做，這個當然是2758號的細節部分，因為2758號是廣義地對國際宣稱。它如果對澳洲個別的國會議員威脅，跟他們說不得參與臺灣任何的活動，現在這個部分外交部的反制措施會是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：中共這些作為是戰狼外交的一部分，也引起反彈，我想在一個民主的社會，國會議員做國際交流或參加一些活動是被保障的，而中共這種極權統治甚至要跨境滲透或者是影響他國，都引起很大的反彈，他們甚至還把一些美國國會議員列管，好像是制裁。我相信臺灣越來越能夠跟理念相近的國家合作，因為我們是在第一線遭受這樣的打壓。現在中國這種威權擴張已經在全世界，造成全世界很大的反彈，滲透到剛剛提到像法國、英國、歐洲這些國家，甚至滲透到他們的民意機關。至於在整個社群媒體上，它發動這種法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰無所不在，臺灣的經驗很能夠分享，包括民間，就是你們在從事的這些事情。","現在必須做總合外交，因為外交是內政的延伸，中共怎麼統治中國，它就想要擴張、影響世界。這個時候臺灣不但不是麻煩製造者，我們是解決問題的鑰匙，所以臺灣要分享經驗跟各國交流。我相信透過剛剛提到的總合外交，部部都是外交部，人人都是外交官。我們要整合，因為現在已經可以說是智慧物聯網（AIoT）的時代，中共透過TikTok或其他社群媒體拓展，也是大家現在做cybersecurity、資安跟韌性的原因。但是沒有臺灣就會有缺口，像參加世界衛生組織、國際民航組織或者是氣候公約的這些組織，乃至於關於國際刑警這方面的組織，沒有臺灣世界就沒有辦法得到很安全的環境。中共對臺灣的打壓損人不利己，它作為一個麻煩製造者是大家的困擾，我們一起來面對跟因應。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長提出總合外交的概念。我剛剛問這個問題，像奧地利如果不給我們駕照，很簡單，平等互惠，大不了讓他們來這邊也不能使用駕照。當他們做這些威脅行動的時候，我們不可能反制，跟他們做一樣的事情，畢竟我們是民主國家。但是在總合外交的概念之上，我們在反制的時候，可能可以用本來總合外交概念裡面的其他手段來做反制，這是民主國家能夠做的事情。我們能夠反制的清單到底有哪些，可能必須更快速的盤點，因為接下來他們的速度可能只會越來越快。如果我們在第一時間沒有做出反制措施的話，它會覺得以後在外交上的打壓沒有成本，所以這個部分對我們來講是重要的。","至於對民眾的溝通，本來今天要講譬如像聯合早報在新加坡那邊，只要看這個報紙，他們對中國的想法會非常不同。我們在媒體上的宣傳，到底要怎麼跟他們的民眾有一定的宣導，讓他們可以影響政界或者公民組織無疑是更重要的。","不好意思，我超過時間，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"153421","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153421","tool":"pyannote","id":"153421-pyannote"},"job_id":"Wiv3WhbGfvC9PtSF","queued_at":"2024-05-30 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題\n\n4\n00:01:08,887 --> 00:01:29,441\n最 後 當 然 就 是 面 對 社 會 大 眾 那 這 個 也 是 最 困 難 的 地 方 所 以 在 之 前 的 質 詢 也 有 特 別 提 醒 就 是 現 在 以 中 國 來 講 他 們 針 對 這 個 社 會 大 眾 做 的 是 特 別 多 他 們 想 要 藉 由 社 會 大 眾 反 過 來 去 影 響 到 他 們 的 政 府 跟 國 會 所 以 才 會 有 上 次 用 T i k T o k 打 電 話 等 等 的 事 件 所 以 這 個 大 概 是 在 我 們 之 前 的 質 詢 的 幾 個 重 點\n\n5\n00:01:31,462 --> 00:01:54,794\n因 為 接 下 來 要 進 入 到 預 算 所 以 我 們 現 在 比 較 想 要 知 道 的 就 是 說 我 們 除 了 這 些 面 對 的 對 象 之 外 我 們 目 前 是 針 對 哪 一 些 領 域 在 做 因 為 畢 竟 外 交 的 領 域 太 多 了 所 以 像 剛 剛 有 提 到 價 值 外 交 那 我 們 可 能 有 這 個 學 術 外 交 各 式 各 樣 的 所 以 在 這 一 邊 我 是 認 為 說 畢 竟 我 們 現 在 面 臨 中 國 的 威 脅 是 最 多 的\n\n6\n00:01:55,536 --> 00:02:16,082\n在 面 臨 中 國 的 威 脅 之 下 呢 這 是 我 們 以 前 在 民 間 的 時 候 去 整 理 就 是 中 國 他 在 這 個 其 他 的 國 家 不 同 的 層 面 的 滲 透 的 狀 況 那 這 不 同 層 面 總 共 有 九 個 不 同 的 層 面 我 就 不 一 一 說 那 但 是 呢 我 們 目 前 來 講 外 交 部 當 然 是 著 重 在 最 右 下 角 的 這 個 外 交 的 部 分 但 就 像 剛 剛\n\n7\n00:02:17,590 --> 00:02:34,848\n這 個 部 長 有 提 到 的 我 們 在 學 術 、 留 學 等 等 之 類 我 們 有 我 們 的 學 術 外 交 然 後 接 下 來 呢 我 們 也 有 剛 剛 提 到 經 濟 上 的 合 作 這 種 經 濟 上 的 外 交 我 們 也 有 文 化 上 的 這 應 該 是 蠻 重 要 的 尤 其 針 對 一 般 社 會 大 眾 那 另 外 剛 剛 也 有 提 到 2 7 5 8 號 那 這 個 部 分 就 是 l a w e n f o r c e m e n t\n\n8\n00:02:35,228 --> 00:02:35,388\n李 卓 人 議 員\n\n9\n00:02:55,256 --> 00:02:56,297\n美 國 最 嚴 重 的 是 學 術\n\n10\n00:03:21,432 --> 00:03:21,693\n李 卓 人 議 員\n\n11\n00:03:42,594 --> 00:04:06,822\n左 下 角 是 烏 克 蘭 烏 克 蘭 其 實 它 有 一 些 是 低 於 平 均 的 譬 如 說 它 在 媒 體 的 部 分 是 低 於 平 均 的 柬 埔 寨 它 在 這 個 學 術 的 部 分 它 被 中 國 滲 透 是 低 於 平 均 的 那 在 這 三 個 月 之 內 我 們 在 觀 察 這 個 外 交 現 況 的 時 候 我 們 發 現 一 件 事 情 就 是 現 在 中 國 不 是 只 有 在 針 對 它 本 來 很 強 的 部 分 做 它 反 而 會 針 對 比 較 弱 的 地 方 去 做\n\n12\n00:04:07,282 --> 00:04:34,859\n例 如 說 他 針 對 這 個 國 家 學 術 做 得 不 夠 他 反 而 這 幾 個 月 尤 其 是 在 5 2 0 之 前 他 反 而 是 特 別 針 對 弱 的 地 方 在 做 不 強 所 以 簡 單 來 講 呢 我 會 認 為 說 我 們 今 天 在 針 對 外 交 的 這 一 個 抵 抗 或 者 說 我 們 在 交 朋 友 的 這 個 過 程 當 中 我 們 除 了 針 對 中 國 做 的 很 多 很 強 的 地 方 要 反 制 之 外 他 沒 做 好 的 地 方 他 現 在 反 而 是 花 最 多 資 源 因 為 中 國 也 想 要 把 他 們 的 資 源 花 在 刀 口 上\n\n13\n00:04:35,359 --> 00:04:58,491\n所 以 這 個 大 概 是 我 們 現 在 的 一 個 w h o l e p i c t u r e 那 我 相 信 外 交 部 有 自 己 的 戰 略 判 斷 我 們 這 邊 只 是 拿 民 間 有 做 的 所 以 這 不 代 表 是 正 確 的 外 交 部 自 己 在 外 管 的 判 斷 應 該 還 是 最 正 確 的 但 我 們 到 最 後 在 接 下 來 的 會 期 我 們 會 想 要 知 道 譬 如 說 我 們 在 這 個 國 家 的 判 斷 是 在 哪 個 地 方 不 足 在 哪 個 地 方 其 實 是 中 國 做 最 多 那 我 們 就 可 能 要 針 對 那 個 地 方 做 加 強 這 大 概 是 我 們 在\n\n14\n00:04:59,211 --> 00:04:59,391\n沈 伯 洋\n\n15\n00:05:15,203 --> 00:05:15,323\n沈 伯 洋\n\n16\n00:05:31,572 --> 00:05:51,531\n還 是 屬 於 在 比 如 說 只 是 因 為 地 方 的 租 車 公 司 他 因 為 把 我 們 列 為 中 國 的 一 省 所 以 呢 我 們 沒 有 辦 法 在 這 邊 被 承 認 所 以 就 沒 有 辦 法 運 作 因 為 這 兩 個 方 向 差 蠻 多 的 一 個 是 比 較 官 方 的 一 個 是 屬 於 像 航 空 公 司 啊 把 我 們 列 為 的 這 個 一 省 的 這 個 問 題 所 以 不 知 道 目 前 就 這 個 方 向 的 掌 握 是 如 何\n\n17\n00:05:52,572 --> 00:06:12,509\n謝 謝 委 員 我 們 當 然 會 先 做 溝 通 協 調 基 於 外 交 也 是 對 等 互 惠 所 以 如 果 對 方 是 基 於 政 治 的 原 因 我 們 同 樣 也 會 採 取 反 應 也 就 是 互 相 承 認 跟 互 相 都 不 承 認 但 是 因 為 奧 地 利 畢 竟\n\n18\n00:06:13,029 --> 00:06:25,557\n他 還 是 一 個 民 主 的 國 家 我 相 信 在 歐 盟 裡 面 經 過 大 家 的 一 個 充 分 的 討 論 我 們 當 然 希 望 既 然 歐 盟 是 整 合 希 望 大 家 能 夠 在 這 裡 面 能 夠 這 個 交 通 能 夠 暢 順 以 外 也 能 夠 國 際 間 的 駕 照 的 一 個 相 互 的 一 個 承 認 跟 使 用 所 以 我 們 會 先 來 確 認\n\n19\n00:06:39,326 --> 00:06:39,486\n沈 伯 洋 議 員\n\n20\n00:07:03,844 --> 00:07:29,996\n這 個 部 分 到 底 是 往 哪 個 方 向 希 望 未 來 有 一 個 掌 握 就 是 之 後 我 們 再 來 追 這 一 題 那 當 然 再 來 就 是 它 的 手 段 是 什 麼 我 也 覺 得 很 重 要 因 為 畢 竟 對 於 威 脅 這 件 事 情 對 於 影 響 這 件 事 情 來 講 它 可 能 是 威 脅 也 有 可 能 是 利 誘 那 到 底 中 國 在 奧 地 利 是 利 誘 做 得 比 較 多 還 是 威 脅 做 得 比 較 多 這 個 說 真 的 我 們 現 在 在 物 理 看 花 啦 那 我 之 前 看 到 這 個 5 月 2 4 的 時 候 也 就 是 大 概 一 個 禮 拜 前\n\n21\n00:07:31,016 --> 00:07:51,486\n我 們 發 現 就 是 有 一 些 新 聞 報 導 澳 地 利 的 一 些 特 工 他 是 專 門 在 搜 集 這 些 機 密 資 訊 給 俄 羅 斯 的 情 報 機 構 然 後 他 去 搶 試 圖 協 助 俄 羅 斯 的 特 工 去 搶 劫 一 名 試 圖 曝 光 俄 羅 斯 間 諜 的 一 個 外 國 記 者 的 公 寓 所 以 很 明 顯 的 就 是 在 他 們 的 這 個 國 會 裡 面 也 開 始 注 意 到\n\n22\n00:07:52,167 --> 00:08:07,546\n這 個 雖 然 不 是 跟 中 國 有 關 但 很 明 顯 的 是 因 為 利 用 說 真 的 可 能 要 花 太 多 錢 了 這 種 事 情 對 他 們 來 講 比 較 簡 單 所 以 如 果 說 這 種 威 脅 的 情 勢 已 經 在 跟 俄 羅 斯 的 合 作 發 生 之 下 我 認 為 中 國 可 能 也 不 遑 多 讓 那 這 可 能 是 在 奧 地 利 我 們 必 須 要 去 注 意 的 問 題\n\n23\n00:08:08,632 --> 00:08:09,332\n外 交 部 的 反 制 措 施 會 是 什 麼 ?\n\n24\n00:08:40,074 --> 00:08:57,393\n中 共 這 些 作 為 是 戰 狼 外 交 的 一 部 分 也 引 起 反 彈 在 一 個 民 主 的 社 會 國 會 議 員 他 在 做 國 際 交 流 或 參 加 一 些 活 動 基 本 上 是 被 保 障 的 中 共 的 這 種 極 權 統 治 還 是 甚 至 跨\n\n25\n00:08:58,174 --> 00:09:01,895\n臺 灣 未 來 未 能 夠 跟 理 念 相 近 的 國 家 就 是 因 為 我 們 是 在 第 一 線 遭 受 到 這 樣 的 一 個 打 壓\n\n26\n00:09:24,122 --> 00:09:39,160\n那 現 在 中 國 的 這 種 威 權 的 擴 張 已 經 是 在 全 世 界 所 以 已 經 造 成 全 世 界 很 大 的 反 彈 甚 至 剛 剛 提 到 了 包 括 在 像 法 國 英 國 等 等 歐 洲 這 些 國 家 他 們 甚 至 滲 透 到 他 們 的 這 些 民 意 機 關 裡 面 去\n\n27\n00:09:40,521 --> 00:09:55,704\n那 至 於 說 在 整 個 社 群 媒 體 上 他 發 動 的 這 種 法 律 戰 、 輿 論 戰 、 心 理 戰 是 無 所 不 在 那 台 灣 的 經 驗 很 能 夠 分 享 包 括 民 間 你 們 在 從 事 的 這 些 事 情 也 就 是 現 在 必 須 做 一 個 總 和 外 交\n\n28\n00:09:56,525 --> 00:10:22,206\n因 為 外 交 是 內 政 的 延 伸 所 以 中 共 怎 麼 統 治 中 國 它 就 想 要 去 擴 張 影 響 世 界 所 以 這 個 時 候 台 灣 不 但 不 是 麻 煩 製 造 者 我 們 是 解 決 問 題 的 鑰 匙 對 台 灣 的 經 驗 的 分 享 跟 各 國 的 交 流 而 這 個 我 相 信 透 過 剛 剛 提 到 的 總 和 外 交 就 部 部 都 是 外 交 部 人 人 都 是 外 交 官 我 們 一 定 要 做 整 合\n\n29\n00:10:23,067 --> 00:10:45,977\n因 為 現 在 已 經 是 一 個 這 個 可 以 說 是 A I O T 這 個 智 慧 物 聯 網 的 時 代 所 以 中 共 的 這 一 些 拓 展 包 括 透 過 T I T O 或 其 他 的 這 一 些 社 群 媒 體 也 是 大 家 現 在 在 做 所 謂 的 C y b e r S e c u r i t y 或 者 是 說 所 謂 的 這 個 治 安 跟 任 性 沒 有 台 灣\n\n30\n00:10:47,077 --> 00:11:15,539\n就 有 缺 口 , 參 加 世 界 衛 生 組 織 , 國 際 民 航 的 組 織 , 或 者 是 氣 候 公 約 的 這 些 組 織 , 乃 至 於 這 個 國 際 警 政 , 這 個 有 關 於 這 方 面 的 組 織 , 沒 有 台 灣 , 那 世 界 就 沒 有 辦 法 得 到 很 安 全 的 環 境 , 而 中 共 對 台 灣 的 打 壓 是 損 人 不 利 己 , 所 以 他 作 為 一 個 麻 煩 製 造 者 , 是 大 家 的 困 擾 , 所 以 我 們 一 起 來 面 對 更 硬 硬 。\n\n31\n00:11:16,740 --> 00:11:35,055\n主 席 抱 歉 再 給 我 3 0 秒 就 是 說 謝 謝 部 長 提 出 總 和 外 交 的 概 念 因 為 我 剛 在 問 這 個 問 題 的 時 候 像 奧 地 利 他 如 果 不 給 我 們 駕 照 我 們 很 簡 單 的 平 等 互 惠 我 們 大 不 了 就 是 讓 他 們 來 這 邊 也 不 能 使 用 駕 照 但 是 當 他 們 在 做 這 些 威 脅 的 行 動 的 時 候 我 們 不 可 能 反 制 跟 他 們 做 一 樣 的 事 情 畢 竟 我 們 是 民 主 國 家\n\n32\n00:11:35,595 --> 00:11:52,420\n所 以 在 總 和 外 交 的 概 念 之 上 我 們 在 反 制 的 時 候 呢 我 們 可 能 可 以 用 本 來 在 這 個 總 和 外 交 的 概 念 裡 面 的 其 他 的 手 段 來 做 反 制 這 是 我 們 民 主 國 家 能 夠 做 的 事 情 但 是 我 們 能 夠 反 制 的 清 單 到 底 有 哪 些 可 能 是 必 須 要 更 快 速 的 盤 點 因 為 接 下 來 他 們 的 速 度 可 能 只 會 越 來 越 快\n\n33\n00:11:53,340 --> 00:12:14,756\n如 果 說 我 們 在 第 一 個 禮 拜 或 是 說 在 第 一 時 間 沒 有 做 出 反 制 措 施 的 話 他 會 覺 得 以 後 在 外 交 上 的 打 壓 沒 有 成 本 所 以 這 個 部 分 對 我 們 來 講 是 重 要 的 那 以 及 對 於 民 眾 的 溝 通 這 就 是 這 個 我 們 在 後 面 這 個 本 來 今 天 要 講 的 就 是 比 如 說 像 聯 合 早 報 他 們 在 新 加 坡 那 一 邊 只 要 看 這 個 報 紙 他 們 對 中 國 的 想 法 其 實 會 有 非 常 不 同\n\n34\n00:12:15,196 --> 00:12:15,416\n謝 謝 主 席 謝 謝 部 長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n290\t530\t邀請部長謝謝請部長\n11577\t40299\t部長好委員長那很高興今天第一個質詢那當然呢這個因為在這個在招卸部長的時候呢在這一段時間呢我們其實質詢了蠻多相關的問題所以我先稍微重整一下然後再往下我覺得有一個big picture那因為畢竟我們這個預算會期也快到了那我覺得對立法委員來講要怎麼看預算能不能夠花在島口上應該是一件重要的事情所以呢我們大概在今天呢最主要的是想要問整個整體戰略上的一個問題\n41620\t67807\t在之前的質詢裡面我們不斷地跟外交部強調就是說外交部他一定有必須要接觸的對象這個對象可以分成最上面的政府跟國會我們立法委員其實自己也是外交的一環第二個就是針對比較中間的智庫、學界跟公民組織那時候我們在質詢的時候也一直在強調不是說我們在接觸外國的公民組織而已還包含現在INGO要怎麼在台灣落地等等的問題\n68887\t89441\t最後當然就是面對社會大眾那這個也是最困難的地方所以在之前的質詢也有特別提醒就是現在以中國來講他們針對這個社會大眾做的是特別多他們想要藉由社會大眾反過來去影響到他們的政府跟國會所以才會有上次用TikTok打電話等等的事件所以這個大概是在我們之前的質詢的幾個重點\n91462\t114794\t因為接下來要進入到預算所以我們現在比較想要知道的就是說我們除了這些面對的對象之外我們目前是針對哪一些領域在做因為畢竟外交的領域太多了所以像剛剛有提到價值外交那我們可能有這個學術外交各式各樣的所以在這一邊我是認為說畢竟我們現在面臨中國的威脅是最多的\n115536\t136082\t在面臨中國的威脅之下呢這是我們以前在民間的時候去整理就是中國他在這個其他的國家不同的層面的滲透的狀況那這不同層面總共有九個不同的層面我就不一一說那但是呢我們目前來講外交部當然是著重在最右下角的這個外交的部分但就像剛剛\n137590\t154848\t這個部長有提到的我們在學術、留學等等之類我們有我們的學術外交然後接下來呢我們也有剛剛提到經濟上的合作這種經濟上的外交我們也有文化上的這應該是蠻重要的尤其針對一般社會大眾那另外剛剛也有提到2758號那這個部分就是law enforcement\n155228\t155388\t李卓人議員\n175256\t176297\t美國最嚴重的是學術\n201432\t201693\t李卓人議員\n222594\t246822\t左下角是烏克蘭烏克蘭其實它有一些是低於平均的譬如說它在媒體的部分是低於平均的柬埔寨它在這個學術的部分它被中國滲透是低於平均的那在這三個月之內我們在觀察這個外交現況的時候我們發現一件事情就是現在中國不是只有在針對它本來很強的部分做它反而會針對比較弱的地方去做\n247282\t274859\t例如說他針對這個國家學術做得不夠他反而這幾個月尤其是在520之前他反而是特別針對弱的地方在做不強所以簡單來講呢我會認為說我們今天在針對外交的這一個抵抗或者說我們在交朋友的這個過程當中我們除了針對中國做的很多很強的地方要反制之外他沒做好的地方他現在反而是花最多資源因為中國也想要把他們的資源花在刀口上\n275359\t298491\t所以這個大概是我們現在的一個whole picture那我相信外交部有自己的戰略判斷我們這邊只是拿民間有做的所以這不代表是正確的外交部自己在外管的判斷應該還是最正確的但我們到最後在接下來的會期我們會想要知道譬如說我們在這個國家的判斷是在哪個地方不足在哪個地方其實是中國做最多那我們就可能要針對那個地方做加強這大概是我們在\n299211\t299391\t沈伯洋\n315203\t315323\t沈伯洋\n331572\t351531\t還是屬於在比如說只是因為地方的租車公司他因為把我們列為中國的一省所以呢我們沒有辦法在這邊被承認所以就沒有辦法運作因為這兩個方向差蠻多的一個是比較官方的一個是屬於像航空公司啊把我們列為的這個一省的這個問題所以不知道目前就這個方向的掌握是如何\n352572\t372509\t謝謝委員我們當然會先做溝通協調基於外交也是對等互惠所以如果對方是基於政治的原因我們同樣也會採取反應也就是互相承認跟互相都不承認但是因為奧地利畢竟\n373029\t385557\t他還是一個民主的國家我相信在歐盟裡面經過大家的一個充分的討論我們當然希望既然歐盟是整合希望大家能夠在這裡面能夠這個交通能夠暢順以外也能夠國際間的駕照的一個相互的一個承認跟使用所以我們會先來確認\n399326\t399486\t沈伯洋議員\n423844\t449996\t這個部分到底是往哪個方向希望未來有一個掌握就是之後我們再來追這一題那當然再來就是它的手段是什麼我也覺得很重要因為畢竟對於威脅這件事情對於影響這件事情來講它可能是威脅也有可能是利誘那到底中國在奧地利是利誘做得比較多還是威脅做得比較多這個說真的我們現在在物理看花啦那我之前看到這個5月24的時候也就是大概一個禮拜前\n451016\t471486\t我們發現就是有一些新聞報導澳地利的一些特工他是專門在搜集這些機密資訊給俄羅斯的情報機構然後他去搶試圖協助俄羅斯的特工去搶劫一名試圖曝光俄羅斯間諜的一個外國記者的公寓所以很明顯的就是在他們的這個國會裡面也開始注意到\n472167\t487546\t這個雖然不是跟中國有關但很明顯的是因為利用說真的可能要花太多錢了這種事情對他們來講比較簡單所以如果說這種威脅的情勢已經在跟俄羅斯的合作發生之下我認為中國可能也不遑多讓那這可能是在奧地利我們必須要去注意的問題\n488632\t489332\t外交部的反制措施會是什麼?\n520074\t537393\t中共這些作為是戰狼外交的一部分也引起反彈在一個民主的社會國會議員他在做國際交流或參加一些活動基本上是被保障的中共的這種極權統治還是甚至跨\n538174\t541895\t臺灣未來未能夠跟理念相近的國家就是因為我們是在第一線遭受到這樣的一個打壓\n564122\t579160\t那現在中國的這種威權的擴張已經是在全世界所以已經造成全世界很大的反彈甚至剛剛提到了包括在像法國英國等等歐洲這些國家他們甚至滲透到他們的這些民意機關裡面去\n580521\t595704\t那至於說在整個社群媒體上他發動的這種法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰是無所不在那台灣的經驗很能夠分享包括民間你們在從事的這些事情也就是現在必須做一個總和外交\n596525\t622206\t因為外交是內政的延伸所以中共怎麼統治中國它就想要去擴張影響世界所以這個時候台灣不但不是麻煩製造者我們是解決問題的鑰匙對台灣的經驗的分享跟各國的交流而這個我相信透過剛剛提到的總和外交就部部都是外交部人人都是外交官我們一定要做整合\n623067\t645977\t因為現在已經是一個這個可以說是AIOT這個智慧物聯網的時代所以中共的這一些拓展包括透過TITO或其他的這一些社群媒體也是大家現在在做所謂的Cyber Security或者是說所謂的這個治安跟任性沒有台灣\n647077\t675539\t就有缺口,參加世界衛生組織,國際民航的組織,或者是氣候公約的這些組織,乃至於這個國際警政,這個有關於這方面的組織,沒有台灣,那世界就沒有辦法得到很安全的環境,而中共對台灣的打壓是損人不利己,所以他作為一個麻煩製造者,是大家的困擾,所以我們一起來面對更硬硬。\n676740\t695055\t主席抱歉再給我30秒就是說謝謝部長提出總和外交的概念因為我剛在問這個問題的時候像奧地利他如果不給我們駕照我們很簡單的平等互惠我們大不了就是讓他們來這邊也不能使用駕照但是當他們在做這些威脅的行動的時候我們不可能反制跟他們做一樣的事情畢竟我們是民主國家\n695595\t712420\t所以在總和外交的概念之上我們在反制的時候呢我們可能可以用本來在這個總和外交的概念裡面的其他的手段來做反制這是我們民主國家能夠做的事情但是我們能夠反制的清單到底有哪些可能是必須要更快速的盤點因為接下來他們的速度可能只會越來越快\n713340\t734756\t如果說我們在第一個禮拜或是說在第一時間沒有做出反制措施的話他會覺得以後在外交上的打壓沒有成本所以這個部分對我們來講是重要的那以及對於民眾的溝通這就是這個我們在後面這個本來今天要講的就是比如說像聯合早報他們在新加坡那一邊只要看這個報紙他們對中國的想法其實會有非常不同\n735196\t735416\t謝謝主席 謝謝部長\n","txt":"邀請部長謝謝請部長\n部長好委員長那很高興今天第一個質詢那當然呢這個因為在這個在招卸部長的時候呢在這一段時間呢我們其實質詢了蠻多相關的問題所以我先稍微重整一下然後再往下我覺得有一個big picture那因為畢竟我們這個預算會期也快到了那我覺得對立法委員來講要怎麼看預算能不能夠花在島口上應該是一件重要的事情所以呢我們大概在今天呢最主要的是想要問整個整體戰略上的一個問題\n在之前的質詢裡面我們不斷地跟外交部強調就是說外交部他一定有必須要接觸的對象這個對象可以分成最上面的政府跟國會我們立法委員其實自己也是外交的一環第二個就是針對比較中間的智庫、學界跟公民組織那時候我們在質詢的時候也一直在強調不是說我們在接觸外國的公民組織而已還包含現在INGO要怎麼在台灣落地等等的問題\n最後當然就是面對社會大眾那這個也是最困難的地方所以在之前的質詢也有特別提醒就是現在以中國來講他們針對這個社會大眾做的是特別多他們想要藉由社會大眾反過來去影響到他們的政府跟國會所以才會有上次用TikTok打電話等等的事件所以這個大概是在我們之前的質詢的幾個重點\n因為接下來要進入到預算所以我們現在比較想要知道的就是說我們除了這些面對的對象之外我們目前是針對哪一些領域在做因為畢竟外交的領域太多了所以像剛剛有提到價值外交那我們可能有這個學術外交各式各樣的所以在這一邊我是認為說畢竟我們現在面臨中國的威脅是最多的\n在面臨中國的威脅之下呢這是我們以前在民間的時候去整理就是中國他在這個其他的國家不同的層面的滲透的狀況那這不同層面總共有九個不同的層面我就不一一說那但是呢我們目前來講外交部當然是著重在最右下角的這個外交的部分但就像剛剛\n這個部長有提到的我們在學術、留學等等之類我們有我們的學術外交然後接下來呢我們也有剛剛提到經濟上的合作這種經濟上的外交我們也有文化上的這應該是蠻重要的尤其針對一般社會大眾那另外剛剛也有提到2758號那這個部分就是law enforcement\n李卓人議員\n美國最嚴重的是學術\n李卓人議員\n左下角是烏克蘭烏克蘭其實它有一些是低於平均的譬如說它在媒體的部分是低於平均的柬埔寨它在這個學術的部分它被中國滲透是低於平均的那在這三個月之內我們在觀察這個外交現況的時候我們發現一件事情就是現在中國不是只有在針對它本來很強的部分做它反而會針對比較弱的地方去做\n例如說他針對這個國家學術做得不夠他反而這幾個月尤其是在520之前他反而是特別針對弱的地方在做不強所以簡單來講呢我會認為說我們今天在針對外交的這一個抵抗或者說我們在交朋友的這個過程當中我們除了針對中國做的很多很強的地方要反制之外他沒做好的地方他現在反而是花最多資源因為中國也想要把他們的資源花在刀口上\n所以這個大概是我們現在的一個whole picture那我相信外交部有自己的戰略判斷我們這邊只是拿民間有做的所以這不代表是正確的外交部自己在外管的判斷應該還是最正確的但我們到最後在接下來的會期我們會想要知道譬如說我們在這個國家的判斷是在哪個地方不足在哪個地方其實是中國做最多那我們就可能要針對那個地方做加強這大概是我們在\n沈伯洋\n沈伯洋\n還是屬於在比如說只是因為地方的租車公司他因為把我們列為中國的一省所以呢我們沒有辦法在這邊被承認所以就沒有辦法運作因為這兩個方向差蠻多的一個是比較官方的一個是屬於像航空公司啊把我們列為的這個一省的這個問題所以不知道目前就這個方向的掌握是如何\n謝謝委員我們當然會先做溝通協調基於外交也是對等互惠所以如果對方是基於政治的原因我們同樣也會採取反應也就是互相承認跟互相都不承認但是因為奧地利畢竟\n他還是一個民主的國家我相信在歐盟裡面經過大家的一個充分的討論我們當然希望既然歐盟是整合希望大家能夠在這裡面能夠這個交通能夠暢順以外也能夠國際間的駕照的一個相互的一個承認跟使用所以我們會先來確認\n沈伯洋議員\n這個部分到底是往哪個方向希望未來有一個掌握就是之後我們再來追這一題那當然再來就是它的手段是什麼我也覺得很重要因為畢竟對於威脅這件事情對於影響這件事情來講它可能是威脅也有可能是利誘那到底中國在奧地利是利誘做得比較多還是威脅做得比較多這個說真的我們現在在物理看花啦那我之前看到這個5月24的時候也就是大概一個禮拜前\n我們發現就是有一些新聞報導澳地利的一些特工他是專門在搜集這些機密資訊給俄羅斯的情報機構然後他去搶試圖協助俄羅斯的特工去搶劫一名試圖曝光俄羅斯間諜的一個外國記者的公寓所以很明顯的就是在他們的這個國會裡面也開始注意到\n這個雖然不是跟中國有關但很明顯的是因為利用說真的可能要花太多錢了這種事情對他們來講比較簡單所以如果說這種威脅的情勢已經在跟俄羅斯的合作發生之下我認為中國可能也不遑多讓那這可能是在奧地利我們必須要去注意的問題\n外交部的反制措施會是什麼?\n中共這些作為是戰狼外交的一部分也引起反彈在一個民主的社會國會議員他在做國際交流或參加一些活動基本上是被保障的中共的這種極權統治還是甚至跨\n臺灣未來未能夠跟理念相近的國家就是因為我們是在第一線遭受到這樣的一個打壓\n那現在中國的這種威權的擴張已經是在全世界所以已經造成全世界很大的反彈甚至剛剛提到了包括在像法國英國等等歐洲這些國家他們甚至滲透到他們的這些民意機關裡面去\n那至於說在整個社群媒體上他發動的這種法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰是無所不在那台灣的經驗很能夠分享包括民間你們在從事的這些事情也就是現在必須做一個總和外交\n因為外交是內政的延伸所以中共怎麼統治中國它就想要去擴張影響世界所以這個時候台灣不但不是麻煩製造者我們是解決問題的鑰匙對台灣的經驗的分享跟各國的交流而這個我相信透過剛剛提到的總和外交就部部都是外交部人人都是外交官我們一定要做整合\n因為現在已經是一個這個可以說是AIOT這個智慧物聯網的時代所以中共的這一些拓展包括透過TITO或其他的這一些社群媒體也是大家現在在做所謂的Cyber Security或者是說所謂的這個治安跟任性沒有台灣\n就有缺口,參加世界衛生組織,國際民航的組織,或者是氣候公約的這些組織,乃至於這個國際警政,這個有關於這方面的組織,沒有台灣,那世界就沒有辦法得到很安全的環境,而中共對台灣的打壓是損人不利己,所以他作為一個麻煩製造者,是大家的困擾,所以我們一起來面對更硬硬。\n主席抱歉再給我30秒就是說謝謝部長提出總和外交的概念因為我剛在問這個問題的時候像奧地利他如果不給我們駕照我們很簡單的平等互惠我們大不了就是讓他們來這邊也不能使用駕照但是當他們在做這些威脅的行動的時候我們不可能反制跟他們做一樣的事情畢竟我們是民主國家\n所以在總和外交的概念之上我們在反制的時候呢我們可能可以用本來在這個總和外交的概念裡面的其他的手段來做反制這是我們民主國家能夠做的事情但是我們能夠反制的清單到底有哪些可能是必須要更快速的盤點因為接下來他們的速度可能只會越來越快\n如果說我們在第一個禮拜或是說在第一時間沒有做出反制措施的話他會覺得以後在外交上的打壓沒有成本所以這個部分對我們來講是重要的那以及對於民眾的溝通這就是這個我們在後面這個本來今天要講的就是比如說像聯合早報他們在新加坡那一邊只要看這個報紙他們對中國的想法其實會有非常不同\n謝謝主席 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.290 --> 00:00.530\n邀 請 部 長 謝 謝 請 部 長\n\n00:11.577 --> 00:40.299\n部 長 好 委 員 長 那 很 高 興 今 天 第 一 個 質 詢 那 當 然 呢 這 個 因 為 在 這 個 在 招 卸 部 長 的 時 候 呢 在 這 一 段 時 間 呢 我 們 其 實 質 詢 了 蠻 多 相 關 的 問 題 所 以 我 先 稍 微 重 整 一 下 然 後 再 往 下 我 覺 得 有 一 個 b i g p i c t u r e 那 因 為 畢 竟 我 們 這 個 預 算 會 期 也 快 到 了 那 我 覺 得 對 立 法 委 員 來 講 要 怎 麼 看 預 算 能 不 能 夠 花 在 島 口 上 應 該 是 一 件 重 要 的 事 情 所 以 呢 我 們 大 概 在 今 天 呢 最 主 要 的 是 想 要 問 整 個 整 體 戰 略 上 的 一 個 問 題\n\n00:41.620 --> 01:07.807\n在 之 前 的 質 詢 裡 面 我 們 不 斷 地 跟 外 交 部 強 調 就 是 說 外 交 部 他 一 定 有 必 須 要 接 觸 的 對 象 這 個 對 象 可 以 分 成 最 上 面 的 政 府 跟 國 會 我 們 立 法 委 員 其 實 自 己 也 是 外 交 的 一 環 第 二 個 就 是 針 對 比 較 中 間 的 智 庫 、 學 界 跟 公 民 組 織 那 時 候 我 們 在 質 詢 的 時 候 也 一 直 在 強 調 不 是 說 我 們 在 接 觸 外 國 的 公 民 組 織 而 已 還 包 含 現 在 I N G O 要 怎 麼 在 台 灣 落 地 等 等 的 問 題\n\n01:08.887 --> 01:29.441\n最 後 當 然 就 是 面 對 社 會 大 眾 那 這 個 也 是 最 困 難 的 地 方 所 以 在 之 前 的 質 詢 也 有 特 別 提 醒 就 是 現 在 以 中 國 來 講 他 們 針 對 這 個 社 會 大 眾 做 的 是 特 別 多 他 們 想 要 藉 由 社 會 大 眾 反 過 來 去 影 響 到 他 們 的 政 府 跟 國 會 所 以 才 會 有 上 次 用 T i k T o k 打 電 話 等 等 的 事 件 所 以 這 個 大 概 是 在 我 們 之 前 的 質 詢 的 幾 個 重 點\n\n01:31.462 --> 01:54.794\n因 為 接 下 來 要 進 入 到 預 算 所 以 我 們 現 在 比 較 想 要 知 道 的 就 是 說 我 們 除 了 這 些 面 對 的 對 象 之 外 我 們 目 前 是 針 對 哪 一 些 領 域 在 做 因 為 畢 竟 外 交 的 領 域 太 多 了 所 以 像 剛 剛 有 提 到 價 值 外 交 那 我 們 可 能 有 這 個 學 術 外 交 各 式 各 樣 的 所 以 在 這 一 邊 我 是 認 為 說 畢 竟 我 們 現 在 面 臨 中 國 的 威 脅 是 最 多 的\n\n01:55.536 --> 02:16.082\n在 面 臨 中 國 的 威 脅 之 下 呢 這 是 我 們 以 前 在 民 間 的 時 候 去 整 理 就 是 中 國 他 在 這 個 其 他 的 國 家 不 同 的 層 面 的 滲 透 的 狀 況 那 這 不 同 層 面 總 共 有 九 個 不 同 的 層 面 我 就 不 一 一 說 那 但 是 呢 我 們 目 前 來 講 外 交 部 當 然 是 著 重 在 最 右 下 角 的 這 個 外 交 的 部 分 但 就 像 剛 剛\n\n02:17.590 --> 02:34.848\n這 個 部 長 有 提 到 的 我 們 在 學 術 、 留 學 等 等 之 類 我 們 有 我 們 的 學 術 外 交 然 後 接 下 來 呢 我 們 也 有 剛 剛 提 到 經 濟 上 的 合 作 這 種 經 濟 上 的 外 交 我 們 也 有 文 化 上 的 這 應 該 是 蠻 重 要 的 尤 其 針 對 一 般 社 會 大 眾 那 另 外 剛 剛 也 有 提 到 2 7 5 8 號 那 這 個 部 分 就 是 l a w e n f o r c e m e n t\n\n02:35.228 --> 02:35.388\n李 卓 人 議 員\n\n02:55.256 --> 02:56.297\n美 國 最 嚴 重 的 是 學 術\n\n03:21.432 --> 03:21.693\n李 卓 人 議 員\n\n03:42.594 --> 04:06.822\n左 下 角 是 烏 克 蘭 烏 克 蘭 其 實 它 有 一 些 是 低 於 平 均 的 譬 如 說 它 在 媒 體 的 部 分 是 低 於 平 均 的 柬 埔 寨 它 在 這 個 學 術 的 部 分 它 被 中 國 滲 透 是 低 於 平 均 的 那 在 這 三 個 月 之 內 我 們 在 觀 察 這 個 外 交 現 況 的 時 候 我 們 發 現 一 件 事 情 就 是 現 在 中 國 不 是 只 有 在 針 對 它 本 來 很 強 的 部 分 做 它 反 而 會 針 對 比 較 弱 的 地 方 去 做\n\n04:07.282 --> 04:34.859\n例 如 說 他 針 對 這 個 國 家 學 術 做 得 不 夠 他 反 而 這 幾 個 月 尤 其 是 在 5 2 0 之 前 他 反 而 是 特 別 針 對 弱 的 地 方 在 做 不 強 所 以 簡 單 來 講 呢 我 會 認 為 說 我 們 今 天 在 針 對 外 交 的 這 一 個 抵 抗 或 者 說 我 們 在 交 朋 友 的 這 個 過 程 當 中 我 們 除 了 針 對 中 國 做 的 很 多 很 強 的 地 方 要 反 制 之 外 他 沒 做 好 的 地 方 他 現 在 反 而 是 花 最 多 資 源 因 為 中 國 也 想 要 把 他 們 的 資 源 花 在 刀 口 上\n\n04:35.359 --> 04:58.491\n所 以 這 個 大 概 是 我 們 現 在 的 一 個 w h o l e p i c t u r e 那 我 相 信 外 交 部 有 自 己 的 戰 略 判 斷 我 們 這 邊 只 是 拿 民 間 有 做 的 所 以 這 不 代 表 是 正 確 的 外 交 部 自 己 在 外 管 的 判 斷 應 該 還 是 最 正 確 的 但 我 們 到 最 後 在 接 下 來 的 會 期 我 們 會 想 要 知 道 譬 如 說 我 們 在 這 個 國 家 的 判 斷 是 在 哪 個 地 方 不 足 在 哪 個 地 方 其 實 是 中 國 做 最 多 那 我 們 就 可 能 要 針 對 那 個 地 方 做 加 強 這 大 概 是 我 們 在\n\n04:59.211 --> 04:59.391\n沈 伯 洋\n\n05:15.203 --> 05:15.323\n沈 伯 洋\n\n05:31.572 --> 05:51.531\n還 是 屬 於 在 比 如 說 只 是 因 為 地 方 的 租 車 公 司 他 因 為 把 我 們 列 為 中 國 的 一 省 所 以 呢 我 們 沒 有 辦 法 在 這 邊 被 承 認 所 以 就 沒 有 辦 法 運 作 因 為 這 兩 個 方 向 差 蠻 多 的 一 個 是 比 較 官 方 的 一 個 是 屬 於 像 航 空 公 司 啊 把 我 們 列 為 的 這 個 一 省 的 這 個 問 題 所 以 不 知 道 目 前 就 這 個 方 向 的 掌 握 是 如 何\n\n05:52.572 --> 06:12.509\n謝 謝 委 員 我 們 當 然 會 先 做 溝 通 協 調 基 於 外 交 也 是 對 等 互 惠 所 以 如 果 對 方 是 基 於 政 治 的 原 因 我 們 同 樣 也 會 採 取 反 應 也 就 是 互 相 承 認 跟 互 相 都 不 承 認 但 是 因 為 奧 地 利 畢 竟\n\n06:13.029 --> 06:25.557\n他 還 是 一 個 民 主 的 國 家 我 相 信 在 歐 盟 裡 面 經 過 大 家 的 一 個 充 分 的 討 論 我 們 當 然 希 望 既 然 歐 盟 是 整 合 希 望 大 家 能 夠 在 這 裡 面 能 夠 這 個 交 通 能 夠 暢 順 以 外 也 能 夠 國 際 間 的 駕 照 的 一 個 相 互 的 一 個 承 認 跟 使 用 所 以 我 們 會 先 來 確 認\n\n06:39.326 --> 06:39.486\n沈 伯 洋 議 員\n\n07:03.844 --> 07:29.996\n這 個 部 分 到 底 是 往 哪 個 方 向 希 望 未 來 有 一 個 掌 握 就 是 之 後 我 們 再 來 追 這 一 題 那 當 然 再 來 就 是 它 的 手 段 是 什 麼 我 也 覺 得 很 重 要 因 為 畢 竟 對 於 威 脅 這 件 事 情 對 於 影 響 這 件 事 情 來 講 它 可 能 是 威 脅 也 有 可 能 是 利 誘 那 到 底 中 國 在 奧 地 利 是 利 誘 做 得 比 較 多 還 是 威 脅 做 得 比 較 多 這 個 說 真 的 我 們 現 在 在 物 理 看 花 啦 那 我 之 前 看 到 這 個 5 月 2 4 的 時 候 也 就 是 大 概 一 個 禮 拜 前\n\n07:31.016 --> 07:51.486\n我 們 發 現 就 是 有 一 些 新 聞 報 導 澳 地 利 的 一 些 特 工 他 是 專 門 在 搜 集 這 些 機 密 資 訊 給 俄 羅 斯 的 情 報 機 構 然 後 他 去 搶 試 圖 協 助 俄 羅 斯 的 特 工 去 搶 劫 一 名 試 圖 曝 光 俄 羅 斯 間 諜 的 一 個 外 國 記 者 的 公 寓 所 以 很 明 顯 的 就 是 在 他 們 的 這 個 國 會 裡 面 也 開 始 注 意 到\n\n07:52.167 --> 08:07.546\n這 個 雖 然 不 是 跟 中 國 有 關 但 很 明 顯 的 是 因 為 利 用 說 真 的 可 能 要 花 太 多 錢 了 這 種 事 情 對 他 們 來 講 比 較 簡 單 所 以 如 果 說 這 種 威 脅 的 情 勢 已 經 在 跟 俄 羅 斯 的 合 作 發 生 之 下 我 認 為 中 國 可 能 也 不 遑 多 讓 那 這 可 能 是 在 奧 地 利 我 們 必 須 要 去 注 意 的 問 題\n\n08:08.632 --> 08:09.332\n外 交 部 的 反 制 措 施 會 是 什 麼 ?\n\n08:40.074 --> 08:57.393\n中 共 這 些 作 為 是 戰 狼 外 交 的 一 部 分 也 引 起 反 彈 在 一 個 民 主 的 社 會 國 會 議 員 他 在 做 國 際 交 流 或 參 加 一 些 活 動 基 本 上 是 被 保 障 的 中 共 的 這 種 極 權 統 治 還 是 甚 至 跨\n\n08:58.174 --> 09:01.895\n臺 灣 未 來 未 能 夠 跟 理 念 相 近 的 國 家 就 是 因 為 我 們 是 在 第 一 線 遭 受 到 這 樣 的 一 個 打 壓\n\n09:24.122 --> 09:39.160\n那 現 在 中 國 的 這 種 威 權 的 擴 張 已 經 是 在 全 世 界 所 以 已 經 造 成 全 世 界 很 大 的 反 彈 甚 至 剛 剛 提 到 了 包 括 在 像 法 國 英 國 等 等 歐 洲 這 些 國 家 他 們 甚 至 滲 透 到 他 們 的 這 些 民 意 機 關 裡 面 去\n\n09:40.521 --> 09:55.704\n那 至 於 說 在 整 個 社 群 媒 體 上 他 發 動 的 這 種 法 律 戰 、 輿 論 戰 、 心 理 戰 是 無 所 不 在 那 台 灣 的 經 驗 很 能 夠 分 享 包 括 民 間 你 們 在 從 事 的 這 些 事 情 也 就 是 現 在 必 須 做 一 個 總 和 外 交\n\n09:56.525 --> 10:22.206\n因 為 外 交 是 內 政 的 延 伸 所 以 中 共 怎 麼 統 治 中 國 它 就 想 要 去 擴 張 影 響 世 界 所 以 這 個 時 候 台 灣 不 但 不 是 麻 煩 製 造 者 我 們 是 解 決 問 題 的 鑰 匙 對 台 灣 的 經 驗 的 分 享 跟 各 國 的 交 流 而 這 個 我 相 信 透 過 剛 剛 提 到 的 總 和 外 交 就 部 部 都 是 外 交 部 人 人 都 是 外 交 官 我 們 一 定 要 做 整 合\n\n10:23.067 --> 10:45.977\n因 為 現 在 已 經 是 一 個 這 個 可 以 說 是 A I O T 這 個 智 慧 物 聯 網 的 時 代 所 以 中 共 的 這 一 些 拓 展 包 括 透 過 T I T O 或 其 他 的 這 一 些 社 群 媒 體 也 是 大 家 現 在 在 做 所 謂 的 C y b e r S e c u r i t y 或 者 是 說 所 謂 的 這 個 治 安 跟 任 性 沒 有 台 灣\n\n10:47.077 --> 11:15.539\n就 有 缺 口 , 參 加 世 界 衛 生 組 織 , 國 際 民 航 的 組 織 , 或 者 是 氣 候 公 約 的 這 些 組 織 , 乃 至 於 這 個 國 際 警 政 , 這 個 有 關 於 這 方 面 的 組 織 , 沒 有 台 灣 , 那 世 界 就 沒 有 辦 法 得 到 很 安 全 的 環 境 , 而 中 共 對 台 灣 的 打 壓 是 損 人 不 利 己 , 所 以 他 作 為 一 個 麻 煩 製 造 者 , 是 大 家 的 困 擾 , 所 以 我 們 一 起 來 面 對 更 硬 硬 。\n\n11:16.740 --> 11:35.055\n主 席 抱 歉 再 給 我 3 0 秒 就 是 說 謝 謝 部 長 提 出 總 和 外 交 的 概 念 因 為 我 剛 在 問 這 個 問 題 的 時 候 像 奧 地 利 他 如 果 不 給 我 們 駕 照 我 們 很 簡 單 的 平 等 互 惠 我 們 大 不 了 就 是 讓 他 們 來 這 邊 也 不 能 使 用 駕 照 但 是 當 他 們 在 做 這 些 威 脅 的 行 動 的 時 候 我 們 不 可 能 反 制 跟 他 們 做 一 樣 的 事 情 畢 竟 我 們 是 民 主 國 家\n\n11:35.595 --> 11:52.420\n所 以 在 總 和 外 交 的 概 念 之 上 我 們 在 反 制 的 時 候 呢 我 們 可 能 可 以 用 本 來 在 這 個 總 和 外 交 的 概 念 裡 面 的 其 他 的 手 段 來 做 反 制 這 是 我 們 民 主 國 家 能 夠 做 的 事 情 但 是 我 們 能 夠 反 制 的 清 單 到 底 有 哪 些 可 能 是 必 須 要 更 快 速 的 盤 點 因 為 接 下 來 他 們 的 速 度 可 能 只 會 越 來 越 快\n\n11:53.340 --> 12:14.756\n如 果 說 我 們 在 第 一 個 禮 拜 或 是 說 在 第 一 時 間 沒 有 做 出 反 制 措 施 的 話 他 會 覺 得 以 後 在 外 交 上 的 打 壓 沒 有 成 本 所 以 這 個 部 分 對 我 們 來 講 是 重 要 的 那 以 及 對 於 民 眾 的 溝 通 這 就 是 這 個 我 們 在 後 面 這 個 本 來 今 天 要 講 的 就 是 比 如 說 像 聯 合 早 報 他 們 在 新 加 坡 那 一 邊 只 要 看 這 個 報 紙 他 們 對 中 國 的 想 法 其 實 會 有 非 常 不 同\n\n12:15.196 --> 12:15.416\n謝 謝 主 席 謝 謝 部 長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.29,"end":0.53,"text":"邀請部長謝謝請部長"},{"start":11.577,"end":40.299,"text":"部長好委員長那很高興今天第一個質詢那當然呢這個因為在這個在招卸部長的時候呢在這一段時間呢我們其實質詢了蠻多相關的問題所以我先稍微重整一下然後再往下我覺得有一個big picture那因為畢竟我們這個預算會期也快到了那我覺得對立法委員來講要怎麼看預算能不能夠花在島口上應該是一件重要的事情所以呢我們大概在今天呢最主要的是想要問整個整體戰略上的一個問題"},{"start":41.62,"end":67.807,"text":"在之前的質詢裡面我們不斷地跟外交部強調就是說外交部他一定有必須要接觸的對象這個對象可以分成最上面的政府跟國會我們立法委員其實自己也是外交的一環第二個就是針對比較中間的智庫、學界跟公民組織那時候我們在質詢的時候也一直在強調不是說我們在接觸外國的公民組織而已還包含現在INGO要怎麼在台灣落地等等的問題"},{"start":68.887,"end":89.441,"text":"最後當然就是面對社會大眾那這個也是最困難的地方所以在之前的質詢也有特別提醒就是現在以中國來講他們針對這個社會大眾做的是特別多他們想要藉由社會大眾反過來去影響到他們的政府跟國會所以才會有上次用TikTok打電話等等的事件所以這個大概是在我們之前的質詢的幾個重點"},{"start":91.462,"end":114.794,"text":"因為接下來要進入到預算所以我們現在比較想要知道的就是說我們除了這些面對的對象之外我們目前是針對哪一些領域在做因為畢竟外交的領域太多了所以像剛剛有提到價值外交那我們可能有這個學術外交各式各樣的所以在這一邊我是認為說畢竟我們現在面臨中國的威脅是最多的"},{"start":115.536,"end":136.082,"text":"在面臨中國的威脅之下呢這是我們以前在民間的時候去整理就是中國他在這個其他的國家不同的層面的滲透的狀況那這不同層面總共有九個不同的層面我就不一一說那但是呢我們目前來講外交部當然是著重在最右下角的這個外交的部分但就像剛剛"},{"start":137.59,"end":154.848,"text":"這個部長有提到的我們在學術、留學等等之類我們有我們的學術外交然後接下來呢我們也有剛剛提到經濟上的合作這種經濟上的外交我們也有文化上的這應該是蠻重要的尤其針對一般社會大眾那另外剛剛也有提到2758號那這個部分就是law enforcement"},{"start":155.228,"end":155.388,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":175.256,"end":176.297,"text":"美國最嚴重的是學術"},{"start":201.432,"end":201.693,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":222.594,"end":246.822,"text":"左下角是烏克蘭烏克蘭其實它有一些是低於平均的譬如說它在媒體的部分是低於平均的柬埔寨它在這個學術的部分它被中國滲透是低於平均的那在這三個月之內我們在觀察這個外交現況的時候我們發現一件事情就是現在中國不是只有在針對它本來很強的部分做它反而會針對比較弱的地方去做"},{"start":247.282,"end":274.859,"text":"例如說他針對這個國家學術做得不夠他反而這幾個月尤其是在520之前他反而是特別針對弱的地方在做不強所以簡單來講呢我會認為說我們今天在針對外交的這一個抵抗或者說我們在交朋友的這個過程當中我們除了針對中國做的很多很強的地方要反制之外他沒做好的地方他現在反而是花最多資源因為中國也想要把他們的資源花在刀口上"},{"start":275.359,"end":298.491,"text":"所以這個大概是我們現在的一個whole picture那我相信外交部有自己的戰略判斷我們這邊只是拿民間有做的所以這不代表是正確的外交部自己在外管的判斷應該還是最正確的但我們到最後在接下來的會期我們會想要知道譬如說我們在這個國家的判斷是在哪個地方不足在哪個地方其實是中國做最多那我們就可能要針對那個地方做加強這大概是我們在"},{"start":299.211,"end":299.391,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":315.203,"end":315.323,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":331.572,"end":351.531,"text":"還是屬於在比如說只是因為地方的租車公司他因為把我們列為中國的一省所以呢我們沒有辦法在這邊被承認所以就沒有辦法運作因為這兩個方向差蠻多的一個是比較官方的一個是屬於像航空公司啊把我們列為的這個一省的這個問題所以不知道目前就這個方向的掌握是如何"},{"start":352.572,"end":372.509,"text":"謝謝委員我們當然會先做溝通協調基於外交也是對等互惠所以如果對方是基於政治的原因我們同樣也會採取反應也就是互相承認跟互相都不承認但是因為奧地利畢竟"},{"start":373.029,"end":385.557,"text":"他還是一個民主的國家我相信在歐盟裡面經過大家的一個充分的討論我們當然希望既然歐盟是整合希望大家能夠在這裡面能夠這個交通能夠暢順以外也能夠國際間的駕照的一個相互的一個承認跟使用所以我們會先來確認"},{"start":399.326,"end":399.486,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":423.844,"end":449.996,"text":"這個部分到底是往哪個方向希望未來有一個掌握就是之後我們再來追這一題那當然再來就是它的手段是什麼我也覺得很重要因為畢竟對於威脅這件事情對於影響這件事情來講它可能是威脅也有可能是利誘那到底中國在奧地利是利誘做得比較多還是威脅做得比較多這個說真的我們現在在物理看花啦那我之前看到這個5月24的時候也就是大概一個禮拜前"},{"start":451.016,"end":471.486,"text":"我們發現就是有一些新聞報導澳地利的一些特工他是專門在搜集這些機密資訊給俄羅斯的情報機構然後他去搶試圖協助俄羅斯的特工去搶劫一名試圖曝光俄羅斯間諜的一個外國記者的公寓所以很明顯的就是在他們的這個國會裡面也開始注意到"},{"start":472.167,"end":487.546,"text":"這個雖然不是跟中國有關但很明顯的是因為利用說真的可能要花太多錢了這種事情對他們來講比較簡單所以如果說這種威脅的情勢已經在跟俄羅斯的合作發生之下我認為中國可能也不遑多讓那這可能是在奧地利我們必須要去注意的問題"},{"start":488.632,"end":489.332,"text":"外交部的反制措施會是什麼?"},{"start":520.074,"end":537.393,"text":"中共這些作為是戰狼外交的一部分也引起反彈在一個民主的社會國會議員他在做國際交流或參加一些活動基本上是被保障的中共的這種極權統治還是甚至跨"},{"start":538.174,"end":541.895,"text":"臺灣未來未能夠跟理念相近的國家就是因為我們是在第一線遭受到這樣的一個打壓"},{"start":564.122,"end":579.16,"text":"那現在中國的這種威權的擴張已經是在全世界所以已經造成全世界很大的反彈甚至剛剛提到了包括在像法國英國等等歐洲這些國家他們甚至滲透到他們的這些民意機關裡面去"},{"start":580.521,"end":595.704,"text":"那至於說在整個社群媒體上他發動的這種法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰是無所不在那台灣的經驗很能夠分享包括民間你們在從事的這些事情也就是現在必須做一個總和外交"},{"start":596.525,"end":622.206,"text":"因為外交是內政的延伸所以中共怎麼統治中國它就想要去擴張影響世界所以這個時候台灣不但不是麻煩製造者我們是解決問題的鑰匙對台灣的經驗的分享跟各國的交流而這個我相信透過剛剛提到的總和外交就部部都是外交部人人都是外交官我們一定要做整合"},{"start":623.067,"end":645.977,"text":"因為現在已經是一個這個可以說是AIOT這個智慧物聯網的時代所以中共的這一些拓展包括透過TITO或其他的這一些社群媒體也是大家現在在做所謂的Cyber Security或者是說所謂的這個治安跟任性沒有台灣"},{"start":647.077,"end":675.539,"text":"就有缺口,參加世界衛生組織,國際民航的組織,或者是氣候公約的這些組織,乃至於這個國際警政,這個有關於這方面的組織,沒有台灣,那世界就沒有辦法得到很安全的環境,而中共對台灣的打壓是損人不利己,所以他作為一個麻煩製造者,是大家的困擾,所以我們一起來面對更硬硬。"},{"start":676.74,"end":695.055,"text":"主席抱歉再給我30秒就是說謝謝部長提出總和外交的概念因為我剛在問這個問題的時候像奧地利他如果不給我們駕照我們很簡單的平等互惠我們大不了就是讓他們來這邊也不能使用駕照但是當他們在做這些威脅的行動的時候我們不可能反制跟他們做一樣的事情畢竟我們是民主國家"},{"start":695.595,"end":712.42,"text":"所以在總和外交的概念之上我們在反制的時候呢我們可能可以用本來在這個總和外交的概念裡面的其他的手段來做反制這是我們民主國家能夠做的事情但是我們能夠反制的清單到底有哪些可能是必須要更快速的盤點因為接下來他們的速度可能只會越來越快"},{"start":713.34,"end":734.756,"text":"如果說我們在第一個禮拜或是說在第一時間沒有做出反制措施的話他會覺得以後在外交上的打壓沒有成本所以這個部分對我們來講是重要的那以及對於民眾的溝通這就是這個我們在後面這個本來今天要講的就是比如說像聯合早報他們在新加坡那一邊只要看這個報紙他們對中國的想法其實會有非常不同"},{"start":735.196,"end":735.416,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]}}}}