{"id":153438,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153438","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7073ba08cb02cdbb3bbb263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0c5b5cf774a2689c845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:11:07 - 09:21:43","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:11:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:21:43+08:00","duration":636,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":87,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（9時11分）謝謝主席，請莊部長及主計長。"],["主席：請莊部長及陳主計長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位早。我想我們很榮幸有兩位女性的財經首長，是少數留任，而且也深受賴總統信任的主計長。這個案子在2月1號我們上任之後，總質詢的第一天我就質詢了陳建仁院長，當時就希望財政部去提出對於財劃法的相對對案，到今天為止我還沒有看到案子，部長，你們什麼時候要提對案？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，委員在質詢院長的時候有提出來，院長也說過要廣徵各界意見並凝聚共識……"],["黃委員珊珊：已經徵詢很久了，徵詢三個多月了，現在呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，過去有五度提出過財劃法的修正案，都沒有能夠完成，就是因為在沒有共識的情況下，一直沒有完成，所以在這一次的時候，我們必須要凝聚各地方政府的意見，我們針對這個部分已經請地方政府表達意見……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我們已經問了你們三個多月了，三個多月、徵詢了25年，25年加上這三個多月叫做一事無成啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對於各地方政府……"],["黃委員珊珊：你也是認為一事無成嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於各地方政府所提出的相關指標，我們也提供給民眾黨團來瞭解，凝聚……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我想這件事情很清楚……"],["莊部長翠雲：差距很大，所以這部分我們也再請他們釐清各個指標，裡面要有一個具體的定義，然後我們會在釐清以後儘快開會……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你給我時間嘛！我在2月1號就問你時間啦！你們時間要多久，還要再研議5年嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：時間的話，在沒有共識的情況下，時間其實是沒有意義的。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，禮拜三就要開公聽會了，這個禮拜就要開始審議了，你再告訴我你沒有時間，請問行政院到今天為止要不要面對財劃法在立法院審議的事實？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想大院的審議我們一定是尊重，可是我們必須還是要把相關的指標……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你沒有對案，到現在這個moment，你還是沒有對案，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們必須把分配的公式要凝聚共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，我查過你在民國99年的成大碩士論文，你當時在臺南市當主計處長，你說得很清楚，財劃法必須要快速的修正；第二個，我們希望，你也希望要公平合理的分配。2012年的賴市長也說要修財劃法，2017的賴院長也說要修財劃法，到今天為止，剛剛聽到部長講話，當然你是新任的，我希望你把你在地方政府碰到的困難以及事實上發生的狀況，清楚地在這個委員會裡面向委員、大家來做說明。主計長，你的立場，不要告訴我，你換了位置就換了腦袋。"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上是情況有改變，整個有做改變，當初我在的時候，那時候在臺南市的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：的確是困難嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：的確是困難，而且它舉債額度非常地高，但是後來在102年有修改公債法……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以有好一點點？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，在舉債方面的壓力就沒有那麼大，但是問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位，我想大家都知道……"],["陳主計長淑姿：財源的部分，因為到現在為止它是逐年增加，所以一般性的補助款，包括我們統籌分配稅……"],["黃委員珊珊：狀況有好一些，但是……"],["陳主計長淑姿：有好，增加很多，其實是增加很多……"],["黃委員珊珊：我都理解。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為從103年增加了兩千多億的一般性補助還有統籌分配稅。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，財政狀況不錯，所以增加預算，大家就比較不吵了，但是相對的，它就是變成一個由中央來決定如何分配，沒有完整清楚或者是明確的方式。最重要的是這次各位看到各個版本，16個版本裡面其實都在討論垂直分配的問題，因為垂直分配，錢不夠，所以大家才會在水平分配的時候不斷的吵架，重點在於今天的垂直分配。","我們台灣民眾黨非常負責任的去計算出來，中央政府總預算將近7、8年來，從25億到四千多億所謂的歲計賸餘，平均起來每一年剩下來大概就是兩千多億。所以台灣民眾黨的版本，我們從垂直分配裡面，把營業稅一部分留下給地方，把營所稅抽百分之五給地方，這樣的影響，從財政部幫我們算出來的大概是2,700億。也就是說，台灣民眾黨所提的版本很負責任的，在不影響中央政事的情況下，每一年有這麼多的歲計賸餘的情況下，大概有兩千億的錢，這個餅可以拿下來分給地方政府，這是我們認為比較合理的方式，這也是我們希望行政院，包括財政部、包括主計處，把你們中央政府到底要有多少錢、到底有多少錢可以拿出來分配，把它講清楚說明白，兩位瞭解我的意思嗎？","如果我們的版本，你們認為有問題，也請你們說出來你們的問題，如果你覺得其他委員的版本有問題，也請你說出來他的問題，而不是到今天為止，沒有一個行政院的立場，這是我非常失望，我已經問了3個月。所以部長，我瞭解你們都因為內閣交接的關係，可能會有這項的落差，但是我希望在財政委員會即將審查的同時，行政院要有自己的態度，要把這些說清楚，不要再造成社會的衝突，更不要造成地方政府大家可能會有互相對立的狀況，這都不是財劃法應該有的結果。","兩位，我相信你們都是非常優秀的事務官升上來的，所以在事務官的腦袋裡面，想到的可能是怎麼樣讓它合理分配，但是我們要做的是，要讓一般的百姓知道地方政府他們的困難在哪裡。我講一個非常簡單的例子，只要中央一說軍公教加薪，第一年中央絕對補助，第二年請自己想辦法，對吧？每一次都這樣，我們在臺北市的時候也發現，中央只要請客，地方就要買單，但地方的錢從哪裡來？就是看中央政府今年補助款再給多一點好了，明年有沒有不知道，這才是為什麼要修財劃法的主要原因，因為不明確、不公開、不透明，就會造成中央請客、地方買單的這種種的狀況。到今天為止，就像剛剛主計長講的，因為他在地方政府待過，財政困難的時候，求助無門，最後變成什麼？仰中央的鼻息，所以我們希望財劃法是要把這些分配的方式清楚、明確，你既然會給它這筆錢，就把它明確化，所以把中央財稅的需求到底有多少講清楚，可以分配給地方有多少也講清楚。兩千多億是民眾黨的版本，我們沒有一定的既定立場，但是我們認為行政院必須要說清楚你們對財劃法的態度。賴總統他在當市長、當院長的時候都提過。","第二個，這個法已經25年沒有修了。第三個，我剛剛講的垂直分配如果可以達到公平的話，水平分配其實基本上不會再有人爭吵。所以部長你的任務就是把垂直分配分清楚，主計處長你的任務就是告訴我們中央政府到底需要多少錢、到底會影響多少，讓人民知道，這個不是一個零和遊戲，也不是一個你輸我贏的遊戲，而是大家都能夠健全財政，然後讓地方政府回到它既有的地方自治。","我再講一個數字，六都的自籌款大概是50%到55%，一般縣市的自籌款23%到27%，兩位覺得這樣合理嗎？一般的縣市只有25%來自於自籌款，其他都要靠中央補助，它怎麼過日子？它只能每天在這邊吵吵吵、喊窮，然後靠著中央給的憐憫，給他們多一點錢，25%到27%自籌款的比例不是一個健全的財政。部長，你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員您說的這個就是涉及到水平分配，我們現在也就是在努力水平分配這一塊，把差距一直縮小，然後讓它共識為更大，這就是目前來說分配公式上大家感覺到不均的這個部分，所以我們努力的是這一塊，過往修法為什麼沒有能夠完成，就是因為這一塊的分配始終沒有共識，委員提的就是這個問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長，我希望你把你做的這個事情入法，你正在做的這些努力，把它入法……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，就是要把它入法。"],["黃委員珊珊：大家都很清楚，把它入法，我們期待你的版本把它入法。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以分配公式要入法，這是沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們同意，在我們審議之前，你能不能夠提出你的版本讓它入法？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在我們就在凝聚共識，就是在努力這一塊。"],["黃委員珊珊：在財政委員會審查的同時，你能不能提出版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：禮拜三召委這邊也已經要舉辦公聽會，其實我覺得可以大家再聽一聽各地方政府的意見，以及專家學者們的意見，大家就知道這個差距在哪裡。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我們不希望到時候行政院說這個是沒有經過討論的、沒有經過你們表示意見的，到時候再說沒有討論，然後內容你們不知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們基本的原則已經出來，第一個，直轄市跟縣市政府要劃一分配的基礎；第二個，我們要精進分配的機制，這個部分其實我們已經……"],["黃委員珊珊：我都沒有意見，請你拿出來讓它入法，你的基準、你的公式，讓它入法。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們的目的就是要有共識，然後入法。"],["黃委員珊珊：我問了3個月，我要看到你的版本，我希望星期三可以看到你的版本，在我們審查的同時，我可以看到你的版本，好嗎？謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。部長，禮拜三還有時間，也請您儘快把你們的版本準備好，謝謝。","請問在場委員，剛剛所宣讀的議事錄內容有無錯誤？（無）沒有錯誤，議事錄確定。","接著繼續質詢，請黃國昌黃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153438","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153438","tool":"pyannote","id":"153438-pyannote"},"job_id":"dovNQbps9pl3jPJw","queued_at":"2024-06-03 15:20:43","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-03 15:22:41","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153438"},{"time":"2024-06-03 15:22:42","msg":"downloading 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\"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 629.918, \"end\": 630.138, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 630.138, \"end\": 630.258, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 630.258, \"end\": 630.278, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,321 --> 00:00:14,862\n財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續擬具\n\n2\n00:00:37,005 --> 00:00:53,567\n收支劃分法。這個案子在2月1號我們上任之後總諮詢的第一天我就諮詢了陳建仁部長當時就希望財政部去提出財政部對於財化法的相對的對岸到今天為止我還沒有看到案子部長你們什麼時候要提對岸\n\n3\n00:00:55,354 --> 00:01:06,580\n收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財\n\n4\n00:01:22,688 --> 00:01:24,050\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n\n5\n00:01:39,309 --> 00:01:43,570\n收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法\n\n6\n00:02:02,014 --> 00:02:15,260\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政\n\n7\n00:02:28,479 --> 00:02:48,897\n在民國99年我查過你在成大的碩士論文你當時在台南市當主席處長很清楚你說得很清楚財劃法必須要快速的修正第二個我們希望你也希望說要公平合理的分配2012的賴市長也說要修財劃法\n\n8\n00:02:49,778 --> 00:02:53,621\n收支劃分法（事由：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政\n\n9\n00:03:15,651 --> 00:03:32,411\n事實上是情況有改變整個有做改變那當初我在的時候那時候在台南市的時候的確是困難的確是困難的確困難而且他取代額度非常的高但是後來呢在102年他有修改\n\n10\n00:03:33,271 --> 00:03:35,352\n收支劃分法修正草案：（事由：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案。\n\n11\n00:03:58,663 --> 00:04:07,887\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法\n\n12\n00:04:19,656 --> 00:04:21,418\n收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法\n\n13\n00:04:41,420 --> 00:04:42,981\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答\n\n14\n00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:33,533\n每一年有這麼多的稅金剩餘的情況下大概有2000億的錢這個餅可以拿下來分給地方政府這是我們認為比較合理的方式這也是我們希望行政院包括財政部包括主計處把你們中央政府你到底要有多少錢你到底有多少錢可以拿出來分配把它講清楚說明白兩位了解我的意思嗎?如果我們的版本你們認為有問題也請你們說出來你們的問題\n\n15\n00:05:36,474 --> 00:05:49,704\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全體委員會議第23次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第27次全體委員會議第28次全體委員會議第29次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第31次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第33次全體委員會\n\n16\n00:05:59,631 --> 00:06:20,942\n行政院要有自己的態度要把這些說清楚不要再造成社會的衝突更不要造成地方政府大家可能會有互相對立的狀況這都不是財化法應該有的結果兩位我都相信你們都是非常優秀的事務官身上來的所以在事務官的\n\n17\n00:06:22,022 --> 00:06:23,403\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n\n18\n00:06:40,313 --> 00:06:55,798\n稍後請自己想辦法,對吧?每一次都這樣。我們在台北市的時候也發現,中央只要請客,地方就要買單。但地方的錢從哪裡來?就是看中央政府,我今年補助款再給你多一點,好了。\n\n19\n00:06:56,198 --> 00:06:57,058\n收支劃分法明年有沒有?\n\n20\n00:06:57,058 --> 00:07:22,972\n不知道。」這才是為什麼要修財劃法的主要原因因為不明確、不公開、不透明就會造成中央請客、地方買單的這種種種的狀況到今天為止就像剛剛主席處長講的因為他在地方政府待過財政困難的時候求助無門最後變成什麼?養中央的鼻息所以我們希望財劃法是要把這些分配的方式\n\n21\n00:07:23,976 --> 00:07:26,199\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n\n22\n00:07:42,239 --> 00:08:04,822\n行政院必須要說清楚你們對財劃法的態度如果賴總統他在當市長當院長的時候都提過第二個這個法已經25年沒有修了第三個我剛講的垂直分配如果可以達到公平的話水平分配其實基本上不會再有人爭吵所以部長你的任務就是把垂直分配分清楚\n\n23\n00:08:05,823 --> 00:08:29,924\n收支出場的任務就是告訴我們中央政府到底需要多少錢到底會影響多少讓人民知道不是這個不是一個零和遊戲也不是一個你輸我贏的遊戲而是大家都能夠健全財政然後讓地方政府回到他既有的地方自治我再講一個數字六都的自籌款大概是50%到55%\n\n24\n00:08:33,612 --> 00:09:00,220\n一般的縣市他的自籌款23%到27%兩位你覺得這樣合理嗎一般的縣市他只有25%來自於自籌款其他都要靠中央補助他怎麼過日子他只能每天在這邊吵吵吵然後喊窮然後靠著中央給他們的憐憫給他多點錢25到27%的自籌款的比例不是一個健全的財政部長你的看法勒\n\n25\n00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:26,314\n是,委員您說的這個就是涉及到水平分配也就是說我們現在就是在努力水平分配這一塊把差距一直縮小然後讓它共識為更大這就是目前來說分配公式上大家感覺到不均的這個部分所以我們努力的是這一塊過往修法為什麼沒有能夠完成就是因為這一塊的分配始終沒有共識我希望你把你做的這個事情把它入法\n\n26\n00:09:26,954 --> 00:09:29,236\n收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法\n\n27\n00:09:48,248 --> 00:10:06,502\n在財政禮拜三我想總召委這邊也已經要舉辦公聽會其實我覺得可以大家再聽一聽各地方政府的意見以及專家學者們的意見因為我們不希望到時候行政院再說這個是沒有經過討論的沒有經過你們表示意見的到時候再說啊沒有討論然後內容你們不知道\n\n28\n00:10:07,425 --> 00:10:30,278\n我都沒有意見請你拿出來讓他入法你的基準、你的公式讓他入法我問了三個月我要看到你的版本我希望星期三我可以看到你的版本在我們審查的同時我可以看到你的版本好嗎?謝謝黃委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11321\t14862\t財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續擬具\n37005\t53567\t收支劃分法。這個案子在2月1號我們上任之後總諮詢的第一天我就諮詢了陳建仁部長當時就希望財政部去提出財政部對於財化法的相對的對岸到今天為止我還沒有看到案子部長你們什麼時候要提對岸\n55354\t66580\t收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財\n82688\t84050\t收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n99309\t103570\t收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法\n122014\t135260\t收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政\n148479\t168897\t在民國99年我查過你在成大的碩士論文你當時在台南市當主席處長很清楚你說得很清楚財劃法必須要快速的修正第二個我們希望你也希望說要公平合理的分配2012的賴市長也說要修財劃法\n169778\t173621\t收支劃分法（事由：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政\n195651\t212411\t事實上是情況有改變整個有做改變那當初我在的時候那時候在台南市的時候的確是困難的確是困難的確困難而且他取代額度非常的高但是後來呢在102年他有修改\n213271\t215352\t收支劃分法修正草案：（事由：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案。\n238663\t247887\t收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法\n259656\t261418\t收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法\n281420\t282981\t收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答\n307000\t333533\t每一年有這麼多的稅金剩餘的情況下大概有2000億的錢這個餅可以拿下來分給地方政府這是我們認為比較合理的方式這也是我們希望行政院包括財政部包括主計處把你們中央政府你到底要有多少錢你到底有多少錢可以拿出來分配把它講清楚說明白兩位了解我的意思嗎?如果我們的版本你們認為有問題也請你們說出來你們的問題\n336474\t349704\t收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全體委員會議第23次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第27次全體委員會議第28次全體委員會議第29次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第31次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第33次全體委員會\n359631\t380942\t行政院要有自己的態度要把這些說清楚不要再造成社會的衝突更不要造成地方政府大家可能會有互相對立的狀況這都不是財化法應該有的結果兩位我都相信你們都是非常優秀的事務官身上來的所以在事務官的\n382022\t383403\t收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n400313\t415798\t稍後請自己想辦法,對吧?每一次都這樣。我們在台北市的時候也發現,中央只要請客,地方就要買單。但地方的錢從哪裡來?就是看中央政府,我今年補助款再給你多一點,好了。\n416198\t417058\t收支劃分法 明年有沒有?\n417058\t442972\t不知道。」這才是為什麼要修財劃法的主要原因因為不明確、不公開、不透明就會造成中央請客、地方買單的這種種種的狀況到今天為止就像剛剛主席處長講的因為他在地方政府待過財政困難的時候求助無門最後變成什麼?養中央的鼻息所以我們希望財劃法是要把這些分配的方式\n443976\t446199\t收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n462239\t484822\t行政院必須要說清楚你們對財劃法的態度如果賴總統他在當市長當院長的時候都提過第二個這個法已經25年沒有修了第三個我剛講的垂直分配如果可以達到公平的話水平分配其實基本上不會再有人爭吵所以部長你的任務就是把垂直分配分清楚\n485823\t509924\t收支出場的任務就是告訴我們中央政府到底需要多少錢到底會影響多少讓人民知道不是這個不是一個零和遊戲也不是一個你輸我贏的遊戲而是大家都能夠健全財政然後讓地方政府回到他既有的地方自治我再講一個數字六都的自籌款大概是50%到55%\n513612\t540220\t一般的縣市他的自籌款23%到27%兩位你覺得這樣合理嗎一般的縣市他只有25%來自於自籌款其他都要靠中央補助他怎麼過日子他只能每天在這邊吵吵吵然後喊窮然後靠著中央給他們的憐憫給他多點錢25到27%的自籌款的比例不是一個健全的財政部長你的看法勒\n540640\t566314\t是,委員您說的這個就是涉及到水平分配也就是說我們現在就是在努力水平分配這一塊把差距一直縮小然後讓它共識為更大這就是目前來說分配公式上大家感覺到不均的這個部分所以我們努力的是這一塊過往修法為什麼沒有能夠完成就是因為這一塊的分配始終沒有共識我希望你把你做的這個事情把它入法\n566954\t569236\t收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法\n588248\t606502\t在財政禮拜三我想總召委這邊也已經要舉辦公聽會其實我覺得可以大家再聽一聽各地方政府的意見以及專家學者們的意見因為我們不希望到時候行政院再說這個是沒有經過討論的沒有經過你們表示意見的到時候再說啊沒有討論然後內容你們不知道\n607425\t630278\t我都沒有意見請你拿出來讓他入法你的基準、你的公式讓他入法我問了三個月我要看到你的版本我希望星期三我可以看到你的版本在我們審查的同時我可以看到你的版本好嗎?謝謝黃委員\n","txt":"財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續擬具\n收支劃分法。這個案子在2月1號我們上任之後總諮詢的第一天我就諮詢了陳建仁部長當時就希望財政部去提出財政部對於財化法的相對的對岸到今天為止我還沒有看到案子部長你們什麼時候要提對岸\n收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政\n在民國99年我查過你在成大的碩士論文你當時在台南市當主席處長很清楚你說得很清楚財劃法必須要快速的修正第二個我們希望你也希望說要公平合理的分配2012的賴市長也說要修財劃法\n收支劃分法（事由：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政\n事實上是情況有改變整個有做改變那當初我在的時候那時候在台南市的時候的確是困難的確是困難的確困難而且他取代額度非常的高但是後來呢在102年他有修改\n收支劃分法修正草案：（事由：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案。\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法\n收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答\n每一年有這麼多的稅金剩餘的情況下大概有2000億的錢這個餅可以拿下來分給地方政府這是我們認為比較合理的方式這也是我們希望行政院包括財政部包括主計處把你們中央政府你到底要有多少錢你到底有多少錢可以拿出來分配把它講清楚說明白兩位了解我的意思嗎?如果我們的版本你們認為有問題也請你們說出來你們的問題\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全體委員會議第23次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第27次全體委員會議第28次全體委員會議第29次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第31次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第33次全體委員會\n行政院要有自己的態度要把這些說清楚不要再造成社會的衝突更不要造成地方政府大家可能會有互相對立的狀況這都不是財化法應該有的結果兩位我都相信你們都是非常優秀的事務官身上來的所以在事務官的\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n稍後請自己想辦法,對吧?每一次都這樣。我們在台北市的時候也發現,中央只要請客,地方就要買單。但地方的錢從哪裡來?就是看中央政府,我今年補助款再給你多一點,好了。\n收支劃分法 明年有沒有?\n不知道。」這才是為什麼要修財劃法的主要原因因為不明確、不公開、不透明就會造成中央請客、地方買單的這種種種的狀況到今天為止就像剛剛主席處長講的因為他在地方政府待過財政困難的時候求助無門最後變成什麼?養中央的鼻息所以我們希望財劃法是要把這些分配的方式\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n行政院必須要說清楚你們對財劃法的態度如果賴總統他在當市長當院長的時候都提過第二個這個法已經25年沒有修了第三個我剛講的垂直分配如果可以達到公平的話水平分配其實基本上不會再有人爭吵所以部長你的任務就是把垂直分配分清楚\n收支出場的任務就是告訴我們中央政府到底需要多少錢到底會影響多少讓人民知道不是這個不是一個零和遊戲也不是一個你輸我贏的遊戲而是大家都能夠健全財政然後讓地方政府回到他既有的地方自治我再講一個數字六都的自籌款大概是50%到55%\n一般的縣市他的自籌款23%到27%兩位你覺得這樣合理嗎一般的縣市他只有25%來自於自籌款其他都要靠中央補助他怎麼過日子他只能每天在這邊吵吵吵然後喊窮然後靠著中央給他們的憐憫給他多點錢25到27%的自籌款的比例不是一個健全的財政部長你的看法勒\n是,委員您說的這個就是涉及到水平分配也就是說我們現在就是在努力水平分配這一塊把差距一直縮小然後讓它共識為更大這就是目前來說分配公式上大家感覺到不均的這個部分所以我們努力的是這一塊過往修法為什麼沒有能夠完成就是因為這一塊的分配始終沒有共識我希望你把你做的這個事情把它入法\n收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法\n在財政禮拜三我想總召委這邊也已經要舉辦公聽會其實我覺得可以大家再聽一聽各地方政府的意見以及專家學者們的意見因為我們不希望到時候行政院再說這個是沒有經過討論的沒有經過你們表示意見的到時候再說啊沒有討論然後內容你們不知道\n我都沒有意見請你拿出來讓他入法你的基準、你的公式讓他入法我問了三個月我要看到你的版本我希望星期三我可以看到你的版本在我們審查的同時我可以看到你的版本好嗎?謝謝黃委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.321 --> 00:14.862\n財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續擬具\n\n00:37.005 --> 00:53.567\n收支劃分法。這個案子在2月1號我們上任之後總諮詢的第一天我就諮詢了陳建仁部長當時就希望財政部去提出財政部對於財化法的相對的對岸到今天為止我還沒有看到案子部長你們什麼時候要提對岸\n\n00:55.354 --> 01:06.580\n收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財\n\n01:22.688 --> 01:24.050\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n\n01:39.309 --> 01:43.570\n收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法\n\n02:02.014 --> 02:15.260\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政\n\n02:28.479 --> 02:48.897\n在民國99年我查過你在成大的碩士論文你當時在台南市當主席處長很清楚你說得很清楚財劃法必須要快速的修正第二個我們希望你也希望說要公平合理的分配2012的賴市長也說要修財劃法\n\n02:49.778 --> 02:53.621\n收支劃分法（事由：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政\n\n03:15.651 --> 03:32.411\n事實上是情況有改變整個有做改變那當初我在的時候那時候在台南市的時候的確是困難的確是困難的確困難而且他取代額度非常的高但是後來呢在102年他有修改\n\n03:33.271 --> 03:35.352\n收支劃分法修正草案：（事由：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案。\n\n03:58.663 --> 04:07.887\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法\n\n04:19.656 --> 04:21.418\n收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法\n\n04:41.420 --> 04:42.981\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答\n\n05:07.000 --> 05:33.533\n每一年有這麼多的稅金剩餘的情況下大概有2000億的錢這個餅可以拿下來分給地方政府這是我們認為比較合理的方式這也是我們希望行政院包括財政部包括主計處把你們中央政府你到底要有多少錢你到底有多少錢可以拿出來分配把它講清楚說明白兩位了解我的意思嗎?如果我們的版本你們認為有問題也請你們說出來你們的問題\n\n05:36.474 --> 05:49.704\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全體委員會議第23次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第27次全體委員會議第28次全體委員會議第29次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第31次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第33次全體委員會\n\n05:59.631 --> 06:20.942\n行政院要有自己的態度要把這些說清楚不要再造成社會的衝突更不要造成地方政府大家可能會有互相對立的狀況這都不是財化法應該有的結果兩位我都相信你們都是非常優秀的事務官身上來的所以在事務官的\n\n06:22.022 --> 06:23.403\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n\n06:40.313 --> 06:55.798\n稍後請自己想辦法,對吧?每一次都這樣。我們在台北市的時候也發現,中央只要請客,地方就要買單。但地方的錢從哪裡來?就是看中央政府,我今年補助款再給你多一點,好了。\n\n06:56.198 --> 06:57.058\n收支劃分法明年有沒有?\n\n06:57.058 --> 07:22.972\n不知道。」這才是為什麼要修財劃法的主要原因因為不明確、不公開、不透明就會造成中央請客、地方買單的這種種種的狀況到今天為止就像剛剛主席處長講的因為他在地方政府待過財政困難的時候求助無門最後變成什麼?養中央的鼻息所以我們希望財劃法是要把這些分配的方式\n\n07:23.976 --> 07:26.199\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n\n07:42.239 --> 08:04.822\n行政院必須要說清楚你們對財劃法的態度如果賴總統他在當市長當院長的時候都提過第二個這個法已經25年沒有修了第三個我剛講的垂直分配如果可以達到公平的話水平分配其實基本上不會再有人爭吵所以部長你的任務就是把垂直分配分清楚\n\n08:05.823 --> 08:29.924\n收支出場的任務就是告訴我們中央政府到底需要多少錢到底會影響多少讓人民知道不是這個不是一個零和遊戲也不是一個你輸我贏的遊戲而是大家都能夠健全財政然後讓地方政府回到他既有的地方自治我再講一個數字六都的自籌款大概是50%到55%\n\n08:33.612 --> 09:00.220\n一般的縣市他的自籌款23%到27%兩位你覺得這樣合理嗎一般的縣市他只有25%來自於自籌款其他都要靠中央補助他怎麼過日子他只能每天在這邊吵吵吵然後喊窮然後靠著中央給他們的憐憫給他多點錢25到27%的自籌款的比例不是一個健全的財政部長你的看法勒\n\n09:00.640 --> 09:26.314\n是,委員您說的這個就是涉及到水平分配也就是說我們現在就是在努力水平分配這一塊把差距一直縮小然後讓它共識為更大這就是目前來說分配公式上大家感覺到不均的這個部分所以我們努力的是這一塊過往修法為什麼沒有能夠完成就是因為這一塊的分配始終沒有共識我希望你把你做的這個事情把它入法\n\n09:26.954 --> 09:29.236\n收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法\n\n09:48.248 --> 10:06.502\n在財政禮拜三我想總召委這邊也已經要舉辦公聽會其實我覺得可以大家再聽一聽各地方政府的意見以及專家學者們的意見因為我們不希望到時候行政院再說這個是沒有經過討論的沒有經過你們表示意見的到時候再說啊沒有討論然後內容你們不知道\n\n10:07.425 --> 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明年有沒有?"},{"start":417.058,"end":442.972,"text":"不知道。」這才是為什麼要修財劃法的主要原因因為不明確、不公開、不透明就會造成中央請客、地方買單的這種種種的狀況到今天為止就像剛剛主席處長講的因為他在地方政府待過財政困難的時候求助無門最後變成什麼?養中央的鼻息所以我們希望財劃法是要把這些分配的方式"},{"start":443.976,"end":446.199,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":462.239,"end":484.822,"text":"行政院必須要說清楚你們對財劃法的態度如果賴總統他在當市長當院長的時候都提過第二個這個法已經25年沒有修了第三個我剛講的垂直分配如果可以達到公平的話水平分配其實基本上不會再有人爭吵所以部長你的任務就是把垂直分配分清楚"},{"start":485.823,"end":509.924,"text":"收支出場的任務就是告訴我們中央政府到底需要多少錢到底會影響多少讓人民知道不是這個不是一個零和遊戲也不是一個你輸我贏的遊戲而是大家都能夠健全財政然後讓地方政府回到他既有的地方自治我再講一個數字六都的自籌款大概是50%到55%"},{"start":513.612,"end":540.22,"text":"一般的縣市他的自籌款23%到27%兩位你覺得這樣合理嗎一般的縣市他只有25%來自於自籌款其他都要靠中央補助他怎麼過日子他只能每天在這邊吵吵吵然後喊窮然後靠著中央給他們的憐憫給他多點錢25到27%的自籌款的比例不是一個健全的財政部長你的看法勒"},{"start":540.64,"end":566.314,"text":"是,委員您說的這個就是涉及到水平分配也就是說我們現在就是在努力水平分配這一塊把差距一直縮小然後讓它共識為更大這就是目前來說分配公式上大家感覺到不均的這個部分所以我們努力的是這一塊過往修法為什麼沒有能夠完成就是因為這一塊的分配始終沒有共識我希望你把你做的這個事情把它入法"},{"start":566.954,"end":569.236,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":588.248,"end":606.502,"text":"在財政禮拜三我想總召委這邊也已經要舉辦公聽會其實我覺得可以大家再聽一聽各地方政府的意見以及專家學者們的意見因為我們不希望到時候行政院再說這個是沒有經過討論的沒有經過你們表示意見的到時候再說啊沒有討論然後內容你們不知道"},{"start":607.425,"end":630.278,"text":"我都沒有意見請你拿出來讓他入法你的基準、你的公式讓他入法我問了三個月我要看到你的版本我希望星期三我可以看到你的版本在我們審查的同時我可以看到你的版本好嗎?謝謝黃委員"}]}}}}