{"id":153440,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153440","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7079889421a536648bd59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0ca931418b5c04cd175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:17:03 - 09:25:31","影片長度":"00:08:28","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:17:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:25:31+08:00","duration":508,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":109,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時17分）主席，請黃部長上臺。"],["主席：黃部長，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：林委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：黃部長，517的時候我在立法院裡面，我看著立法院外面的標語寫的是「民主已死」；519的時候，我再看到民眾黨外面集會的標語叫做「打倒新黨國」；521的時候我看到外面的標語叫做「反黑箱、反擴權」，但實質上這個案子我個人覺得非常非常的遺憾，非常非常的吃驚，因為這是一個很明顯侵犯個人隱私、踐踏基本人權的一個案子。我一直認為臺灣是個民主法治國家，像美國好萊塢、蘇聯這樣的情節，不應該發生在臺灣，但是我們現在看到狀況等於是跟「全民公敵」這部快20年前的電影，還是The Bourne Identity「神鬼認證」一樣，好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節，用國家機器來監控我們全體的人民，在一個大型的活動的時候。","我想請問部長，因為部長您是資安的專家，您在就職數發部部長之前，我那時候有提醒過我會問這些事情，請問一下，目前這個技術是否可行？Yes or No？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，技術上我剛才講過，資料的串接都有在散布在各系統，當然可行，但是會相當的困難。"],["林委員沛祥：所以這個技術是可行的？"],["黃部長彥男：可行，但是會相當困難，因為要串接很多系統，事實上每個系統是獨立的，一定要各個系統都要允許，所以這個方面在技術上可行，在行政流程……"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝部長，因為讓我們知道，我們現在確認這個技術是可行的，因為我們一直是道聽塗說，可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題；可能我們用LINE會有日本的問題；可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題；甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題，可是沒想到我們自己的手機在臺灣就有這樣技術，謝謝部長。","再下一位，我想請黃次長。"],["主席：好，請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：次長你好。那時候王義川先生說：有些是小草、有些是太陽花，占了整個活動的六成，我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成，20歲以下差不多占一成二，巴拉巴拉講了一堆，最重要是說這些人跟在519樓下的不一樣，517跟519不一樣，跟1月13日也不一樣。請問一下，像這樣資訊透露的說法、這樣的行為，是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，本部所掌管的是通訊保障及監察法，通保法只能就犯罪的個案調取通訊紀錄，沒有辦法……"],["林委員沛祥：對，可是如果這樣，像你剛才講過……"],["黃次長謀信：它沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調閱……"],["林委員沛祥：全面性的這樣是否違法？如果有人做出這樣的行動是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：那涉及到是不是有違反個人資料保護法的問題……"],["林委員沛祥：是不是違法？如果大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，個人資料保護法非本部主管的業務，本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法。"],["林委員沛祥：所以你無法跟我講是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。"],["林委員沛祥：那請問是哪個部會可以跟我講是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：目前有它的目的主管機關。"],["林委員沛祥：哪一位？"],["黃次長謀信：個人資料保護法的目的主管機關。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我想請問一下，如果以你的辦案經驗，你是前任檢察官，嚴格講起來、理論上來講，王先生不是主管的人，不應該得到這方面的資訊，對吧？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這已經涉及到個案，個案的事實、法律要適用、要偵辦，前提是要……"],["林委員沛祥：我是說你以前的先例。"],["黃次長謀信：對，跟委員報告……"],["林委員沛祥：我們講辦案、講先例，以你的慣例、先例之外，現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情，我會很好奇，因為這整個系統看起來、run起來……在4月20號時就已經有人預告5月17號、5月21號、5月28號……就已經有人在媒體上面直接預告318再起，所以他們就已經知道了。我剛剛也請教了林國成委員，519的活動什麼時候就暫定了？他說是兩個禮拜前，差不多5月初，所以這些時間都很明確的時候，以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的，怎麼樣趨動當然有困難性。你現在把這變成個案，好，我可以接受你這個講法，對於這件事情來講，我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了，這些資訊後來也拿到了，然後你說這是個案，好，我給你。但說實在話，本席會認為，單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料，如果說個案是刑事責任，對吧？可是如果是通案，這麼大規模的話，嚴格講起來這只能做不能說，這應該是國安局長才能拿到的資訊，可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿到這些資訊呢？請你解釋一下。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果是個案的話，臺北地檢署就有一個個案，事實上在5月19號已經分案在偵辦，但委員所提出的通案性問題就不是我們檢察機關辦理個案時能夠處理……"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝次長。我也想請問一下中華電信董事長。"],["主席：請中華電信郭董事長。"],["林委員沛祥：董事長，如果說以你們……當然你們現在是全面否認，不過我很好奇，如果以你們辦業務的話，這樣資料是如何取得的？"],["郭董事長水義：我們不知道他的資料……"],["林委員沛祥：如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣做，英國倫敦用一家MAC address的網路垃圾桶就可以做出這樣的東西，我不相信11年之後，中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到？我相信黃部長在AT＆T任職過，也知道這東西其實很稀鬆平常，只是願不願意做而已。我想請問一下，這個資料是如何取得的？一般來講，如果說是刑事案件，你們會如何取得這個資料？"],["郭董事長水義：中華電信處理任何個人資料，包括人潮分析，我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理，剛才所提到的相關功能，我們沒有任何……"],["林委員沛祥：去識別會給一般人他們的MAC address跟他們的年紀嗎？這完完全全都是王先生在媒體上面講的，上面有說這些是不同人，甚至細到連年齡都有，這是他透漏訊息，我想本身那份資料應該更完整，而且速度很快，我記得他講的時候是5月22日，這樣變成是5月19號、5月17號，甚至5月21日資料就出來了，怎麼會有這麼快、這麼迅速的作業呢？"],["郭董事長水義：從5/17到5/24之間，本公司沒有提供任何有關的資料，我們沒有提供這方面的人潮分析資料。"],["林委員沛祥：那我想請問一下，如果有的話，通常是一個企業體要購買像這方面的資料……本席會認為，如果這些資料可以拿出來在政論節目上隨便亂講的話，那基本上詐騙集團問題就很大啦，難怪我們詐騙這麼多，因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶！這些如果說是……為什麼我不會去問NCC，因為我覺得NCC不會想去管這些事情，所以我完全不會去問NCC的原因就在這裡，因為NCC不會管。"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，中華電信的資料都在公司內部，不會外流。"],["林委員沛祥：不會外流？"],["郭董事長水義：對，不會外流。"],["林委員沛祥：我會覺得這次的質詢，還是一句話：聽君一席話如聽一席話。其實對我們國會議員來講是非常、非常、非常失望的，老實講，我們期待……因為這件事情，你說什麼叫做毀憲亂政？這個就是毀憲亂政，民主法治國家從來沒有遇過這樣的事情，就算有，說真的這樣子赤裸裸的在全國、全世界面前說我們是臺灣民主法治自由國家，但是我們的人民是這樣受到監控，而且是有意、有計畫（plan）的一個「聯合組合拳」的時候，我個人覺得對我們現在的體制非常失望，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝林沛祥委員的發言。","下一位請李昆澤召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 287.114, \"end\": 287.214, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 287.214, \"end\": 287.374, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 287.374, \"end\": 287.674, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 287.674, \"end\": 287.915, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 287.915, \"end\": 288.595, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 288.595, \"end\": 288.715, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 288.715, \"end\": 288.836, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 288.836, \"end\": 288.936, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 288.936, \"end\": 289.016, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 289.016, \"end\": 289.176, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 289.176, \"end\": 289.436, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 289.436, \"end\": 289.596, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 289.596, \"end\": 289.716, \"score\": 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\"end\": 295.903, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 295.903, \"end\": 296.023, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 296.023, \"end\": 296.664, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 296.664, \"end\": 296.784, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 296.784, \"end\": 296.864, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 296.864, \"end\": 297.024, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 297.024, \"end\": 297.264, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 297.264, \"end\": 297.665, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 297.665, \"end\": 297.785, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 297.785, \"end\": 297.965, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 297.965, \"end\": 298.366, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 298.366, \"end\": 298.506, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 298.506, \"end\": 298.626, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 298.626, \"end\": 298.706, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 298.706, \"end\": 298.726, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 300.502, \"end\": 321.941, \"text\": \"請你解釋一下跟委員報告如果是個案的話臺北地檢署就個案事實上他在2月19號已經分案在偵辦但委員所提出的通案性的問題的話就不是我們檢察機關辦個案時能夠謝謝市長那我最後面想請問一下那個我們中華電信董事長來請中華電信請郭董\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 300.502, \"end\": 300.622, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 300.622, \"end\": 300.883, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 300.883, \"end\": 300.983, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 300.983, \"end\": 301.523, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 301.523, \"end\": 301.643, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 301.643, \"end\": 301.943, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, 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\"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 338.127, \"end\": 366.667, \"text\": \"我們不知道他的資料如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣去做的時候英國倫敦用一家有MAC address的這個垃圾桶在網路垃圾桶就可以去做出這樣的東西我不相信11年之後中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到我相信黃部長在AT&T在AT&T任職過也知道這東西其實是很心中平常只是願不願意做而已那我想請問一下這個資料是如何取得的一般來講如果說是情緒案件我們會如何取得這個資料\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 338.127, \"end\": 338.808, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 338.808, \"end\": 338.928, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 338.928, \"end\": 339.048, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 339.048, \"end\": 339.368, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 339.368, \"end\": 339.508, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 339.508, \"end\": 339.748, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 339.748, \"end\": 339.868, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 339.868, \"end\": 340.008, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 340.008, \"end\": 340.749, \"score\": 0.877}, 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473.181, \"end\": 473.361, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 473.361, \"end\": 473.501, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 473.501, \"end\": 474.062, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 474.062, \"end\": 474.542, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 474.542, \"end\": 474.762, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 474.762, \"end\": 474.902, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 474.902, \"end\": 475.122, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"毀\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"亂\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 475.122, \"end\": 475.362, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 475.362, \"end\": 475.482, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 475.482, \"end\": 475.502, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"毀\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"亂\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 475.502, \"end\": 475.522, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 480.882, \"end\": 481.022, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 481.022, \"end\": 481.042, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,323 --> 00:00:30,490\n主席請黃部長上台黃部長謝謝林委員長黃部長五一七的時候其實我在立法院裡面我看著外面立法院的標語寫的是民主已死五一九的時候我在看到那個我們民眾黨外面的集會的標語叫做打倒新黨國\n\n2\n00:00:31,932 --> 00:00:57,240\n五二一的時候我看到外面的標語叫做反黑箱反擴權但實質上這個案子我個人覺得非常非常的遺憾非常非常的吃驚因為這是一個很明顯侵犯個人隱私踐踏基本人權的一個案子我一直認為說台灣是個民主法治國家像美國、好萊塢、蘇聯這樣的情節不應該發生在台灣但是我們現在看到的狀況這等於是跟全民攻敵\n\n3\n00:00:58,604 --> 00:01:23,867\n這是快20年前的電影《全民公敵》還是《BoardIdentity》《神鬼認證》一樣好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節用國家機器來去監控我們全體的人民在一個大型的活動的時候那我想只想請問部長因為部長您是治安的專家您在就職速發部部長之前我那時候有提醒過說我會問這些事情請問一下目前這個技術是否可行\n\n4\n00:01:25,789 --> 00:01:50,139\n報告委員那個技術上我剛剛講過資料的串接是都有在散佈在各系統當然可行但是會相當的困難所以這個技術是可行的可行但是會相當困難因為要串接很多系統那事實上每個系統是獨立的那一定要各個系統都要得到允許所以這個方面在行政流程上技術上可行在行政流程上是很困難因為讓我們知道說我們現在確認有這個技術是可行的\n\n5\n00:01:52,600 --> 00:02:09,805\n因為我們一直是報道聽途說說可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題可能我們用Line會有日本的問題可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題可是沒想到我們自己的手機在台灣就會有這樣的技術謝謝部長那在下一位我想請黃次長\n\n6\n00:02:20,737 --> 00:02:36,761\n市長你好那時候王毅川王先生說有些是小草有些是太陽花的占了整個活動的六成我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成二十歲以下差不多占一成二巴拉巴拉講了一堆最重要的是說這些人在519樓下的也不一樣517跟519不一樣跟1月13也不一樣請問一下像這樣的資訊透露之後這樣的說法這樣的行為是否違法\n\n7\n00:02:45,720 --> 00:03:03,816\n公共報告本部所掌管是通訊保障監察法就通法無法他只能就犯罪的個案上才調取通信紀律對可是像如果這樣他你剛才講過他沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調整全面性的這樣是否違法如果有人做出這樣的行動是否違法那涉及到這是不是違反個人資料保護法的問題那就不是違法如果大規模的\n\n8\n00:03:06,258 --> 00:03:30,791\n關於大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法?個人資料保護法就非本部主管的業務了本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法所以你無法跟我講是否違法?對沒有錯那請問是哪個部位可以講是否違法?目前有他的目的主管機關哪一位?個人資料保護法的目的主管機關好那我還想請問一下如果說您認為以你的辦案經驗您是前任檢察官對\n\n9\n00:03:31,832 --> 00:03:49,145\n那嚴格講起來王先生理論上來講他不應該得到質問他應該不是主管的人來得到這方面的資訊對吧那各位報告這個已經涉及到個案個案的事實法律要適用要偵辦不是說你以前的先例對因為我們講辦案講先例以你的慣例先例之外\n\n10\n00:03:49,485 --> 00:04:02,480\n那現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情因為我會很好奇啦因為是整個系統這樣看起來整個run起來我們在4月20號的時候就有人預告說5月17號、5月21號、5月28號、5月28號這個就有318在就已經有人在媒體上面直接先預告了\n\n11\n00:04:09,008 --> 00:04:36,543\n所以已經知道那我剛剛也請教了我們那個林國臣委員說什麼時候一五一九的活動暫定的他說是五月是兩個禮拜前差不多五月初所以這些時間都很明確的時候那以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的那怎麼樣去做當然有困難性那當然你說現在是把這邊變成個案好我給你這個講法但是對於這件事情來講我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了那這邊資訊後來也拿到了\n\n12\n00:04:37,864 --> 00:04:58,726\n然後你說這是個案好我給你說實在話本席會認為說你單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料如果你說個案是刑事責任對吧可是如果是通案如果是這麼大大規模的話這只有兩個人講起來這只能做不能說這應該是國安才能國安局長才能拿到資訊可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿這些資訊呢\n\n13\n00:05:00,502 --> 00:05:21,941\n請你解釋一下跟委員報告如果是個案的話臺北地檢署就個案事實上他在2月19號已經分案在偵辦但委員所提出的通案性的問題的話就不是我們檢察機關辦個案時能夠謝謝市長那我最後面想請問一下那個我們中華電信董事長來請中華電信請郭董\n\n14\n00:05:29,076 --> 00:05:36,822\n董事長如果說以你們當然你們現在是全面否認不過我是很好奇如果說以你們在去辦業務的話這樣的資料是如何取得的?\n\n15\n00:05:38,127 --> 00:06:06,667\n我們不知道他的資料如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣去做的時候英國倫敦用一家有MACaddress的這個垃圾桶在網路垃圾桶就可以去做出這樣的東西我不相信11年之後中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到我相信黃部長在AT&T在AT&T任職過也知道這東西其實是很心中平常只是願不願意做而已那我想請問一下這個資料是如何取得的一般來講如果說是情緒案件我們會如何取得這個資料\n\n16\n00:06:07,688 --> 00:06:23,227\n中華電信處理任何個人資料包括人潮分析我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理剛才所提到的相關的功能我們沒有任何去識別化會給一般人他們的MACAddress跟他們的年紀嗎?\n\n17\n00:06:25,046 --> 00:06:45,003\n我就是告訴王先生在媒體上面講的上面是有說這些是不同人而且甚至繫到說連年齡都有是他透露訊息我想本身那份資料應該更完整而且速度很快我記得這個他講的時候是5月22他5月22的話變成是5月19號5月17號甚至5月521資料很快就出來怎麼會有這麼快這麼迅速的作業呢\n\n18\n00:06:52,179 --> 00:07:20,314\n本公司沒有提供任何有關到從517到524之間任何的資料我們沒有提供任何人潮這方面的人潮分析資料那我想請問一下如果有的話那通常是一個如果是企業體要購買像這方面的資料因為本席會認為說如果這些資料可以拿出來在這個政論節目上面隨便亂講的話那基本上我們詐騙集團問題就很大啦那難怪我們詐騙這麼多因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶\n\n19\n00:07:21,823 --> 00:07:24,406\n報告委員中華電信的資料都在公司內部不會外流不會外流對不會外流\n\n20\n00:07:40,953 --> 00:07:55,522\n我會覺得這次的質詢還是一句話聽軍醫習話如聽醫習話其實對我們來講對我們國會議員來講是非常非常非常失望的那老實講我們期待因為這件事情你說什麼叫做毀憲亂政這個就是毀憲亂政\n\n21\n00:08:00,882 --> 00:08:01,042\n以上\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5323\t30490\t主席請黃部長上台黃部長謝謝林委員長黃部長五一七的時候其實我在立法院裡面我看著外面立法院的標語寫的是民主已死五一九的時候我在看到那個我們民眾黨外面的集會的標語叫做打倒新黨國\n31932\t57240\t五二一的時候我看到外面的標語叫做反黑箱反擴權但實質上這個案子我個人覺得非常非常的遺憾非常非常的吃驚因為這是一個很明顯侵犯個人隱私踐踏基本人權的一個案子我一直認為說台灣是個民主法治國家像美國、好萊塢、蘇聯這樣的情節不應該發生在台灣但是我們現在看到的狀況這等於是跟全民攻敵\n58604\t83867\t這是快20年前的電影 《全民公敵》還是《Board Identity》《神鬼認證》一樣好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節用國家機器來去監控我們全體的人民在一個大型的活動的時候那我想只想請問部長 因為部長您是治安的專家您在就職速發部部長之前我那時候有提醒過說我會問這些事情請問一下目前這個技術是否可行\n85789\t110139\t報告委員那個技術上我剛剛講過資料的串接是都有在散佈在各系統當然可行但是會相當的困難所以這個技術是可行的可行但是會相當困難因為要串接很多系統那事實上每個系統是獨立的那一定要各個系統都要得到允許所以這個方面在行政流程上技術上可行在行政流程上是很困難因為讓我們知道說我們現在確認有這個技術是可行的\n112600\t129805\t因為我們一直是報道聽途說說可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題可能我們用Line會有日本的問題可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題可是沒想到我們自己的手機在台灣就會有這樣的技術謝謝部長那在下一位我想請黃次長\n140737\t156761\t市長你好那時候王毅川王先生說有些是小草有些是太陽花的占了整個活動的六成我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成二十歲以下差不多占一成二巴拉巴拉講了一堆最重要的是說這些人在519樓下的也不一樣517跟519不一樣跟1月13也不一樣請問一下像這樣的資訊透露之後這樣的說法這樣的行為是否違法\n165720\t183816\t公共報告本部所掌管是通訊保障監察法就通法無法他只能就犯罪的個案上才調取通信紀律對可是像如果這樣他你剛才講過他沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調整全面性的這樣是否違法如果有人做出這樣的行動是否違法那涉及到這是不是違反個人資料保護法的問題那就不是違法如果大規模的\n186258\t210791\t關於大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法?個人資料保護法就非本部主管的業務了本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法所以你無法跟我講是否違法?對 沒有錯那請問是哪個部位可以講是否違法?目前有他的目的主管機關哪一位?個人資料保護法的目的主管機關好 那我還想請問一下如果說您認為以你的辦案經驗您是前任檢察官對\n211832\t229145\t那嚴格講起來王先生理論上來講他不應該得到質問他應該不是主管的人來得到這方面的資訊對吧那各位報告這個已經涉及到個案個案的事實法律要適用要偵辦不是說你以前的先例對因為我們講辦案講先例以你的慣例先例之外\n229485\t242480\t那現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情因為我會很好奇啦因為是整個系統這樣看起來整個run起來我們在4月20號的時候就有人預告說5月17號、5月21號、5月28號、5月28號這個就有318在就已經有人在媒體上面直接先預告了\n249008\t276543\t所以已經知道那我剛剛也請教了我們那個林國臣委員說什麼時候一五一九的活動暫定的他說是五月是兩個禮拜前差不多五月初所以這些時間都很明確的時候那以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的那怎麼樣去做當然有困難性那當然你說現在是把這邊變成個案好我給你這個講法但是對於這件事情來講我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了那這邊資訊後來也拿到了\n277864\t298726\t然後你說這是個案好我給你說實在話本席會認為說你單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料如果你說個案是刑事責任對吧可是如果是通案如果是這麼大大規模的話這只有兩個人講起來這只能做不能說這應該是國安才能國安局長才能拿到資訊可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿這些資訊呢\n300502\t321941\t請你解釋一下跟委員報告如果是個案的話臺北地檢署就個案事實上他在2月19號已經分案在偵辦但委員所提出的通案性的問題的話就不是我們檢察機關辦個案時能夠謝謝市長那我最後面想請問一下那個我們中華電信董事長來請中華電信請郭董\n329076\t336822\t董事長如果說以你們當然你們現在是全面否認不過我是很好奇如果說以你們在去辦業務的話這樣的資料是如何取得的?\n338127\t366667\t我們不知道他的資料如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣去做的時候英國倫敦用一家有MAC address的這個垃圾桶在網路垃圾桶就可以去做出這樣的東西我不相信11年之後中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到我相信黃部長在AT&T在AT&T任職過也知道這東西其實是很心中平常只是願不願意做而已那我想請問一下這個資料是如何取得的一般來講如果說是情緒案件我們會如何取得這個資料\n367688\t383227\t中華電信處理任何個人資料包括人潮分析我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理剛才所提到的相關的功能我們沒有任何去識別化會給一般人他們的MAC Address跟他們的年紀嗎?\n385046\t405003\t我就是告訴王先生在媒體上面講的上面是有說這些是不同人而且甚至繫到說連年齡都有是他透露訊息我想本身那份資料應該更完整而且速度很快我記得這個他講的時候是5月22他5月22的話變成是5月19號5月17號甚至5月521資料很快就出來怎麼會有這麼快這麼迅速的作業呢\n412179\t440314\t本公司沒有提供任何有關到從517到524之間任何的資料我們沒有提供任何人潮這方面的人潮分析資料那我想請問一下如果有的話那通常是一個如果是企業體要購買像這方面的資料因為本席會認為說如果這些資料可以拿出來在這個政論節目上面隨便亂講的話那基本上我們詐騙集團問題就很大啦那難怪我們詐騙這麼多因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶\n441823\t444406\t報告委員中華電信的資料都在公司內部不會外流不會外流對不會外流\n460953\t475522\t我會覺得這次的質詢還是一句話聽軍醫習話如聽醫習話其實對我們來講對我們國會議員來講是非常非常非常失望的那老實講我們期待因為這件事情你說什麼叫做毀憲亂政這個就是毀憲亂政\n480882\t481042\t以上\n","txt":"主席請黃部長上台黃部長謝謝林委員長黃部長五一七的時候其實我在立法院裡面我看著外面立法院的標語寫的是民主已死五一九的時候我在看到那個我們民眾黨外面的集會的標語叫做打倒新黨國\n五二一的時候我看到外面的標語叫做反黑箱反擴權但實質上這個案子我個人覺得非常非常的遺憾非常非常的吃驚因為這是一個很明顯侵犯個人隱私踐踏基本人權的一個案子我一直認為說台灣是個民主法治國家像美國、好萊塢、蘇聯這樣的情節不應該發生在台灣但是我們現在看到的狀況這等於是跟全民攻敵\n這是快20年前的電影 《全民公敵》還是《Board Identity》《神鬼認證》一樣好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節用國家機器來去監控我們全體的人民在一個大型的活動的時候那我想只想請問部長 因為部長您是治安的專家您在就職速發部部長之前我那時候有提醒過說我會問這些事情請問一下目前這個技術是否可行\n報告委員那個技術上我剛剛講過資料的串接是都有在散佈在各系統當然可行但是會相當的困難所以這個技術是可行的可行但是會相當困難因為要串接很多系統那事實上每個系統是獨立的那一定要各個系統都要得到允許所以這個方面在行政流程上技術上可行在行政流程上是很困難因為讓我們知道說我們現在確認有這個技術是可行的\n因為我們一直是報道聽途說說可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題可能我們用Line會有日本的問題可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題可是沒想到我們自己的手機在台灣就會有這樣的技術謝謝部長那在下一位我想請黃次長\n市長你好那時候王毅川王先生說有些是小草有些是太陽花的占了整個活動的六成我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成二十歲以下差不多占一成二巴拉巴拉講了一堆最重要的是說這些人在519樓下的也不一樣517跟519不一樣跟1月13也不一樣請問一下像這樣的資訊透露之後這樣的說法這樣的行為是否違法\n公共報告本部所掌管是通訊保障監察法就通法無法他只能就犯罪的個案上才調取通信紀律對可是像如果這樣他你剛才講過他沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調整全面性的這樣是否違法如果有人做出這樣的行動是否違法那涉及到這是不是違反個人資料保護法的問題那就不是違法如果大規模的\n關於大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法?個人資料保護法就非本部主管的業務了本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法所以你無法跟我講是否違法?對 沒有錯那請問是哪個部位可以講是否違法?目前有他的目的主管機關哪一位?個人資料保護法的目的主管機關好 那我還想請問一下如果說您認為以你的辦案經驗您是前任檢察官對\n那嚴格講起來王先生理論上來講他不應該得到質問他應該不是主管的人來得到這方面的資訊對吧那各位報告這個已經涉及到個案個案的事實法律要適用要偵辦不是說你以前的先例對因為我們講辦案講先例以你的慣例先例之外\n那現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情因為我會很好奇啦因為是整個系統這樣看起來整個run起來我們在4月20號的時候就有人預告說5月17號、5月21號、5月28號、5月28號這個就有318在就已經有人在媒體上面直接先預告了\n所以已經知道那我剛剛也請教了我們那個林國臣委員說什麼時候一五一九的活動暫定的他說是五月是兩個禮拜前差不多五月初所以這些時間都很明確的時候那以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的那怎麼樣去做當然有困難性那當然你說現在是把這邊變成個案好我給你這個講法但是對於這件事情來講我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了那這邊資訊後來也拿到了\n然後你說這是個案好我給你說實在話本席會認為說你單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料如果你說個案是刑事責任對吧可是如果是通案如果是這麼大大規模的話這只有兩個人講起來這只能做不能說這應該是國安才能國安局長才能拿到資訊可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿這些資訊呢\n請你解釋一下跟委員報告如果是個案的話臺北地檢署就個案事實上他在2月19號已經分案在偵辦但委員所提出的通案性的問題的話就不是我們檢察機關辦個案時能夠謝謝市長那我最後面想請問一下那個我們中華電信董事長來請中華電信請郭董\n董事長如果說以你們當然你們現在是全面否認不過我是很好奇如果說以你們在去辦業務的話這樣的資料是如何取得的?\n我們不知道他的資料如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣去做的時候英國倫敦用一家有MAC address的這個垃圾桶在網路垃圾桶就可以去做出這樣的東西我不相信11年之後中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到我相信黃部長在AT&T在AT&T任職過也知道這東西其實是很心中平常只是願不願意做而已那我想請問一下這個資料是如何取得的一般來講如果說是情緒案件我們會如何取得這個資料\n中華電信處理任何個人資料包括人潮分析我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理剛才所提到的相關的功能我們沒有任何去識別化會給一般人他們的MAC Address跟他們的年紀嗎?\n我就是告訴王先生在媒體上面講的上面是有說這些是不同人而且甚至繫到說連年齡都有是他透露訊息我想本身那份資料應該更完整而且速度很快我記得這個他講的時候是5月22他5月22的話變成是5月19號5月17號甚至5月521資料很快就出來怎麼會有這麼快這麼迅速的作業呢\n本公司沒有提供任何有關到從517到524之間任何的資料我們沒有提供任何人潮這方面的人潮分析資料那我想請問一下如果有的話那通常是一個如果是企業體要購買像這方面的資料因為本席會認為說如果這些資料可以拿出來在這個政論節目上面隨便亂講的話那基本上我們詐騙集團問題就很大啦那難怪我們詐騙這麼多因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶\n報告委員中華電信的資料都在公司內部不會外流不會外流對不會外流\n我會覺得這次的質詢還是一句話聽軍醫習話如聽醫習話其實對我們來講對我們國會議員來講是非常非常非常失望的那老實講我們期待因為這件事情你說什麼叫做毀憲亂政這個就是毀憲亂政\n以上\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.323 --> 00:30.490\n主席請黃部長上台黃部長謝謝林委員長黃部長五一七的時候其實我在立法院裡面我看著外面立法院的標語寫的是民主已死五一九的時候我在看到那個我們民眾黨外面的集會的標語叫做打倒新黨國\n\n00:31.932 --> 00:57.240\n五二一的時候我看到外面的標語叫做反黑箱反擴權但實質上這個案子我個人覺得非常非常的遺憾非常非常的吃驚因為這是一個很明顯侵犯個人隱私踐踏基本人權的一個案子我一直認為說台灣是個民主法治國家像美國、好萊塢、蘇聯這樣的情節不應該發生在台灣但是我們現在看到的狀況這等於是跟全民攻敵\n\n00:58.604 --> 01:23.867\n這是快20年前的電影《全民公敵》還是《BoardIdentity》《神鬼認證》一樣好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節用國家機器來去監控我們全體的人民在一個大型的活動的時候那我想只想請問部長因為部長您是治安的專家您在就職速發部部長之前我那時候有提醒過說我會問這些事情請問一下目前這個技術是否可行\n\n01:25.789 --> 01:50.139\n報告委員那個技術上我剛剛講過資料的串接是都有在散佈在各系統當然可行但是會相當的困難所以這個技術是可行的可行但是會相當困難因為要串接很多系統那事實上每個系統是獨立的那一定要各個系統都要得到允許所以這個方面在行政流程上技術上可行在行政流程上是很困難因為讓我們知道說我們現在確認有這個技術是可行的\n\n01:52.600 --> 02:09.805\n因為我們一直是報道聽途說說可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題可能我們用Line會有日本的問題可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題可是沒想到我們自己的手機在台灣就會有這樣的技術謝謝部長那在下一位我想請黃次長\n\n02:20.737 --> 02:36.761\n市長你好那時候王毅川王先生說有些是小草有些是太陽花的占了整個活動的六成我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成二十歲以下差不多占一成二巴拉巴拉講了一堆最重要的是說這些人在519樓下的也不一樣517跟519不一樣跟1月13也不一樣請問一下像這樣的資訊透露之後這樣的說法這樣的行為是否違法\n\n02:45.720 --> 03:03.816\n公共報告本部所掌管是通訊保障監察法就通法無法他只能就犯罪的個案上才調取通信紀律對可是像如果這樣他你剛才講過他沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調整全面性的這樣是否違法如果有人做出這樣的行動是否違法那涉及到這是不是違反個人資料保護法的問題那就不是違法如果大規模的\n\n03:06.258 --> 03:30.791\n關於大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法?個人資料保護法就非本部主管的業務了本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法所以你無法跟我講是否違法?對沒有錯那請問是哪個部位可以講是否違法?目前有他的目的主管機關哪一位?個人資料保護法的目的主管機關好那我還想請問一下如果說您認為以你的辦案經驗您是前任檢察官對\n\n03:31.832 --> 03:49.145\n那嚴格講起來王先生理論上來講他不應該得到質問他應該不是主管的人來得到這方面的資訊對吧那各位報告這個已經涉及到個案個案的事實法律要適用要偵辦不是說你以前的先例對因為我們講辦案講先例以你的慣例先例之外\n\n03:49.485 --> 04:02.480\n那現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情因為我會很好奇啦因為是整個系統這樣看起來整個run起來我們在4月20號的時候就有人預告說5月17號、5月21號、5月28號、5月28號這個就有318在就已經有人在媒體上面直接先預告了\n\n04:09.008 --> 04:36.543\n所以已經知道那我剛剛也請教了我們那個林國臣委員說什麼時候一五一九的活動暫定的他說是五月是兩個禮拜前差不多五月初所以這些時間都很明確的時候那以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的那怎麼樣去做當然有困難性那當然你說現在是把這邊變成個案好我給你這個講法但是對於這件事情來講我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了那這邊資訊後來也拿到了\n\n04:37.864 --> 04:58.726\n然後你說這是個案好我給你說實在話本席會認為說你單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料如果你說個案是刑事責任對吧可是如果是通案如果是這麼大大規模的話這只有兩個人講起來這只能做不能說這應該是國安才能國安局長才能拿到資訊可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿這些資訊呢\n\n05:00.502 --> 05:21.941\n請你解釋一下跟委員報告如果是個案的話臺北地檢署就個案事實上他在2月19號已經分案在偵辦但委員所提出的通案性的問題的話就不是我們檢察機關辦個案時能夠謝謝市長那我最後面想請問一下那個我們中華電信董事長來請中華電信請郭董\n\n05:29.076 --> 05:36.822\n董事長如果說以你們當然你們現在是全面否認不過我是很好奇如果說以你們在去辦業務的話這樣的資料是如何取得的?\n\n05:38.127 --> 06:06.667\n我們不知道他的資料如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣去做的時候英國倫敦用一家有MACaddress的這個垃圾桶在網路垃圾桶就可以去做出這樣的東西我不相信11年之後中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到我相信黃部長在AT&T在AT&T任職過也知道這東西其實是很心中平常只是願不願意做而已那我想請問一下這個資料是如何取得的一般來講如果說是情緒案件我們會如何取得這個資料\n\n06:07.688 --> 06:23.227\n中華電信處理任何個人資料包括人潮分析我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理剛才所提到的相關的功能我們沒有任何去識別化會給一般人他們的MACAddress跟他們的年紀嗎?\n\n06:25.046 --> 06:45.003\n我就是告訴王先生在媒體上面講的上面是有說這些是不同人而且甚至繫到說連年齡都有是他透露訊息我想本身那份資料應該更完整而且速度很快我記得這個他講的時候是5月22他5月22的話變成是5月19號5月17號甚至5月521資料很快就出來怎麼會有這麼快這麼迅速的作業呢\n\n06:52.179 --> 07:20.314\n本公司沒有提供任何有關到從517到524之間任何的資料我們沒有提供任何人潮這方面的人潮分析資料那我想請問一下如果有的話那通常是一個如果是企業體要購買像這方面的資料因為本席會認為說如果這些資料可以拿出來在這個政論節目上面隨便亂講的話那基本上我們詐騙集團問題就很大啦那難怪我們詐騙這麼多因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶\n\n07:21.823 --> 07:24.406\n報告委員中華電信的資料都在公司內部不會外流不會外流對不會外流\n\n07:40.953 --> 07:55.522\n我會覺得這次的質詢還是一句話聽軍醫習話如聽醫習話其實對我們來講對我們國會議員來講是非常非常非常失望的那老實講我們期待因為這件事情你說什麼叫做毀憲亂政這個就是毀憲亂政\n\n08:00.882 --> 08:01.042\n以上\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.323,"end":30.49,"text":"主席請黃部長上台黃部長謝謝林委員長黃部長五一七的時候其實我在立法院裡面我看著外面立法院的標語寫的是民主已死五一九的時候我在看到那個我們民眾黨外面的集會的標語叫做打倒新黨國"},{"start":31.932,"end":57.24,"text":"五二一的時候我看到外面的標語叫做反黑箱反擴權但實質上這個案子我個人覺得非常非常的遺憾非常非常的吃驚因為這是一個很明顯侵犯個人隱私踐踏基本人權的一個案子我一直認為說台灣是個民主法治國家像美國、好萊塢、蘇聯這樣的情節不應該發生在台灣但是我們現在看到的狀況這等於是跟全民攻敵"},{"start":58.604,"end":83.867,"text":"這是快20年前的電影 《全民公敵》還是《Board Identity》《神鬼認證》一樣好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節用國家機器來去監控我們全體的人民在一個大型的活動的時候那我想只想請問部長 因為部長您是治安的專家您在就職速發部部長之前我那時候有提醒過說我會問這些事情請問一下目前這個技術是否可行"},{"start":85.789,"end":110.139,"text":"報告委員那個技術上我剛剛講過資料的串接是都有在散佈在各系統當然可行但是會相當的困難所以這個技術是可行的可行但是會相當困難因為要串接很多系統那事實上每個系統是獨立的那一定要各個系統都要得到允許所以這個方面在行政流程上技術上可行在行政流程上是很困難因為讓我們知道說我們現在確認有這個技術是可行的"},{"start":112.6,"end":129.805,"text":"因為我們一直是報道聽途說說可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題可能我們用Line會有日本的問題可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題可是沒想到我們自己的手機在台灣就會有這樣的技術謝謝部長那在下一位我想請黃次長"},{"start":140.737,"end":156.761,"text":"市長你好那時候王毅川王先生說有些是小草有些是太陽花的占了整個活動的六成我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成二十歲以下差不多占一成二巴拉巴拉講了一堆最重要的是說這些人在519樓下的也不一樣517跟519不一樣跟1月13也不一樣請問一下像這樣的資訊透露之後這樣的說法這樣的行為是否違法"},{"start":165.72,"end":183.816,"text":"公共報告本部所掌管是通訊保障監察法就通法無法他只能就犯罪的個案上才調取通信紀律對可是像如果這樣他你剛才講過他沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調整全面性的這樣是否違法如果有人做出這樣的行動是否違法那涉及到這是不是違反個人資料保護法的問題那就不是違法如果大規模的"},{"start":186.258,"end":210.791,"text":"關於大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法?個人資料保護法就非本部主管的業務了本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法所以你無法跟我講是否違法?對 沒有錯那請問是哪個部位可以講是否違法?目前有他的目的主管機關哪一位?個人資料保護法的目的主管機關好 那我還想請問一下如果說您認為以你的辦案經驗您是前任檢察官對"},{"start":211.832,"end":229.145,"text":"那嚴格講起來王先生理論上來講他不應該得到質問他應該不是主管的人來得到這方面的資訊對吧那各位報告這個已經涉及到個案個案的事實法律要適用要偵辦不是說你以前的先例對因為我們講辦案講先例以你的慣例先例之外"},{"start":229.485,"end":242.48,"text":"那現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情因為我會很好奇啦因為是整個系統這樣看起來整個run起來我們在4月20號的時候就有人預告說5月17號、5月21號、5月28號、5月28號這個就有318在就已經有人在媒體上面直接先預告了"},{"start":249.008,"end":276.543,"text":"所以已經知道那我剛剛也請教了我們那個林國臣委員說什麼時候一五一九的活動暫定的他說是五月是兩個禮拜前差不多五月初所以這些時間都很明確的時候那以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的那怎麼樣去做當然有困難性那當然你說現在是把這邊變成個案好我給你這個講法但是對於這件事情來講我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了那這邊資訊後來也拿到了"},{"start":277.864,"end":298.726,"text":"然後你說這是個案好我給你說實在話本席會認為說你單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料如果你說個案是刑事責任對吧可是如果是通案如果是這麼大大規模的話這只有兩個人講起來這只能做不能說這應該是國安才能國安局長才能拿到資訊可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿這些資訊呢"},{"start":300.502,"end":321.941,"text":"請你解釋一下跟委員報告如果是個案的話臺北地檢署就個案事實上他在2月19號已經分案在偵辦但委員所提出的通案性的問題的話就不是我們檢察機關辦個案時能夠謝謝市長那我最後面想請問一下那個我們中華電信董事長來請中華電信請郭董"},{"start":329.076,"end":336.822,"text":"董事長如果說以你們當然你們現在是全面否認不過我是很好奇如果說以你們在去辦業務的話這樣的資料是如何取得的?"},{"start":338.127,"end":366.667,"text":"我們不知道他的資料如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣去做的時候英國倫敦用一家有MAC address的這個垃圾桶在網路垃圾桶就可以去做出這樣的東西我不相信11年之後中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到我相信黃部長在AT&T在AT&T任職過也知道這東西其實是很心中平常只是願不願意做而已那我想請問一下這個資料是如何取得的一般來講如果說是情緒案件我們會如何取得這個資料"},{"start":367.688,"end":383.227,"text":"中華電信處理任何個人資料包括人潮分析我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理剛才所提到的相關的功能我們沒有任何去識別化會給一般人他們的MAC Address跟他們的年紀嗎?"},{"start":385.046,"end":405.003,"text":"我就是告訴王先生在媒體上面講的上面是有說這些是不同人而且甚至繫到說連年齡都有是他透露訊息我想本身那份資料應該更完整而且速度很快我記得這個他講的時候是5月22他5月22的話變成是5月19號5月17號甚至5月521資料很快就出來怎麼會有這麼快這麼迅速的作業呢"},{"start":412.179,"end":440.314,"text":"本公司沒有提供任何有關到從517到524之間任何的資料我們沒有提供任何人潮這方面的人潮分析資料那我想請問一下如果有的話那通常是一個如果是企業體要購買像這方面的資料因為本席會認為說如果這些資料可以拿出來在這個政論節目上面隨便亂講的話那基本上我們詐騙集團問題就很大啦那難怪我們詐騙這麼多因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶"},{"start":441.823,"end":444.406,"text":"報告委員中華電信的資料都在公司內部不會外流不會外流對不會外流"},{"start":460.953,"end":475.522,"text":"我會覺得這次的質詢還是一句話聽軍醫習話如聽醫習話其實對我們來講對我們國會議員來講是非常非常非常失望的那老實講我們期待因為這件事情你說什麼叫做毀憲亂政這個就是毀憲亂政"},{"start":480.882,"end":481.042,"text":"以上"}]}}}}