{"id":153442,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153442","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707b8b4630737897bce59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c5bdf3d81c64cf4bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:33:18 - 09:43:06","影片長度":"00:09:48","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:33:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:43:06+08:00","duration":588,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":215,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時33分）謝謝主席，我們先請數位部黃部長、NCC陳主委跟個人資料保護委員會的鄭副主任，還有中華電信郭董事長。"],["主席：請黃部長、陳主委、鄭副主任、郭董事長。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝各位。「Big brother is watching you」這是1949年出版的知名小說《1984》的經典名言─老大哥在看著你─沒想到2024年，當年的小說可能因為這次的事件變成預言。上週在政論節目裡面，民進黨的政策會執行長王義川曾經講過，他們去比對青鳥活動在立法院外頭的群眾不同於517民進黨樓下的群眾，他的說法是依據所謂的電信信令人口統計資料。我想內政部110年的電信信令資料，當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等，都有去統計，但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字。我想問一下陳主委，以上的敘述對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有錯，大數據分析要去識別化。"],["黃委員健豪：換句話說，理論上來講，不同的場合、不同的人群，理論上是沒辦法做比對的，是嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：大數據資料基本上來講，如果你要做兩個場合的比對的話，有一些大數據分析，比如就性別或是年紀，有些輪廓性的資料來講的話，還是有可能的，比如說這個是學生的活動，還是比如說一般成人的活動，所以在年紀上或性別上還是有一些區別的。"],["黃委員健豪：所以主委是說有可能去做比對？那沒關係，如果有可能做比對的話，我再確認一件事情，誰可以去申請電信信令資料？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：電信信令資料，基本上來講，是在電信公司這邊，原則上如果它已經去識別化了，這個資料在使用當中就變成所謂的數據。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委。那我問一下郭董事長。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：郭董事長，從今年總統大選的造勢晚會，然後到今年的519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行，有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請手機的電信信令資料？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有，報告委員，沒有……"],["黃委員健豪：都沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["黃委員健豪：那誰可以申請電信信令資料？剛剛主委沒有回答我，我想問一下在實務面上，誰可以跟中華電信申請這樣的手機電信信令資料？"],["郭董事長水義：我們的電信信令資料是不會外流的，剛才有報告，至於剛才提到的，任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行等相關的活動，我們沒有進行這樣的分析。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長，你說電信信令資料是不能外流的，但是地方政府就有掌握到，他們就是能夠利用電信信令資料來做比對。"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，那是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析運用。"],["黃委員健豪：所以他是另外再跟你買這個資料，是嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：這個就是人潮分析平台上面所闡釋的大數據的分析資料，跟……"],["黃委員健豪：這是公開資訊，還是要另外加價購買？"],["郭董事長水義：這個需要購買的。"],["黃委員健豪：那我重新再問一次問題，今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行，有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，沒有。"],["黃委員健豪：都沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["黃委員健豪：所以誰可以買？任何人都可以買嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料。"],["黃委員健豪：那大數據資料呢？"],["郭董事長水義：如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的，觀光運用或紓解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料，我們會應主管單位，例如地方縣市政府的需求，然後最重要的是在合法、合規的前提下，而且重要的是要去識別化，然後來進行相關的資料……"],["黃委員健豪：好，郭董事長，謝謝。所以，郭董事長的意思是說，你剛剛提到電信信令資料是不能購買的，也不能外流的，對吧？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["黃委員健豪：但是你們處理後的大數據資料，當主管機關針對所謂的觀光或是交通問題，他們可以來購買去做分析、比對？"],["郭董事長水義：對，就是去識別化之後，在分析之前先去識別化。"],["黃委員健豪：好，郭董，謝謝，沒事了。換句話說，政策會執行長王義川在電視上講的這一段，看起來理論上來講，不是從你們這邊購買的，對吧？"],["郭董事長水義：不是。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來下一段，我想問一下數位部黃部長。部長，你在今天的報告裡面提到說，除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料，才能夠進行交叉比對，否則無法連上特定區域、某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布，是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，它的資料散布在不同的系統，所以那個號碼，就是說Radio Access Network跟我們的編列系統是分開的，那個要去比對才有辦法。"],["黃委員健豪：所以技術上可行，但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜？"],["黃部長彥男：尤其是當你講到幾萬人的時候，那是相當複雜的。"],["黃委員健豪：那如果王義川講說他取得的話，你覺得這句話有沒有可行性？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我不清楚，我不能判斷，因為我沒有這個資料。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係。最後，因為時間不夠，我來問一下個人資料保護委員會籌備處，你在今天的報告裡面提到一件事情，第2頁後面的部分提到，我們都很在意個人資料的保護，但是在合約裡面有提到說，經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料，可以提供第三人使用，這是你們給我們看的合約內容，「經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別」這句話，我想請問一下，誰來確認經甲方處理並確認？"],["鄭副主任其昀：黃委員好，跟委員報告，因為現在電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會，包含電信事業在個人資料保護的這個個案的監理機關也是通傳會，所以之後也是會由通傳會這邊來確認，以上。"],["黃委員健豪：所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的乙方資料給電信公司，合約上可以這樣做嗎？"],["鄭副主任其昀：如果是通傳會解釋合約，這邊如果可以的話，那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料，那當然就是依照這個合約去處理了。"],["黃委員健豪：我的意思是說我可不可以連去識別化之後的我都不提供？請主委回答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講，當事人本來就有拒絕的權利，只是說以我們的這個契約來講，如果你簽了這個契約，當然契約裡面會有這個部分，因為這是定型化契約。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊！因為這是定型化契約，這是民生問題，今天發生這個事情，在定型化契約裡面既然已經寫白了這件事情，那我有沒有機會把這一條拿掉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，但是如果要變更的話，你就要通知，就是原來在這個契約裡面是這樣寫，當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題，他如果覺得他的個人資料有疑慮，他可以向電信公司要求退租。"],["黃委員健豪：好，最後還有一點時間，我不知道主管機關是誰，過去在疫情的時候有所謂電子城牆的問題，當然理論上你們是依法消除了，那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除？這個執行過程在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請我們的同仁來說明，我們第一是先去檢查。"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，我們是配合疫情結束後在112年5月因為降階以後，就是這套監控系統都全部停止，我們都是配合、因應衛福部的要求，我們NCC分別去了5趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除，以上。"],["黃委員健豪：所以在疫情期間蒐集、處理、利用的這些個人資料，還有他們所去過任何地方的相關資料，在現階段都已經消除了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員健豪：在疫情期間大家也曾經看到了，不管是天下雜誌也好，還是以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好，就是臺灣實際上能夠做到透過手機來監控人的流向，我想問一下NCC的陳主委，現階段技術上到底做不做得到這件事情？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不曉得委員問的是個人還是人流？"],["黃委員健豪：個人。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是個人的話，基本上來講，你要手機當然有啊！因為比如說要救災、要救人，或者是像刑事犯罪可能有通保的問題，從技術上來講是可行的，只是說我們有所謂的法律規定，你如果違反法律的規定，就是違反個資法或者是相關的法律。"],["黃委員健豪：所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當授權……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：要有法律的依據，要依法定程序才可以。"],["黃委員健豪：所以如果沒有依法定程序取得了這些個人的資料，他就是違法，對吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得，那就可能會侵害到個人的資料。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主委謝謝，部長謝謝，大家謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃健豪委員。下一位請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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\"這是公開資訊還是要另外加價購買?這個需要購買的讓我重新再問一次問題今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型集會遊行有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料?報告委員沒有都沒有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 202.874, \"end\": 203.034, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 203.034, \"end\": 203.834, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 203.834, \"end\": 203.934, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 203.934, \"end\": 204.135, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 204.135, \"end\": 204.255, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 204.255, \"end\": 204.575, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 204.575, \"end\": 206.355, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"買\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 206.355, \"end\": 206.495, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 206.495, \"end\": 207.056, 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{\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 352.003, \"end\": 352.023, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 352.023, \"end\": 352.163, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 352.163, \"end\": 352.263, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 352.263, \"end\": 352.403, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 352.403, \"end\": 353.643, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 353.643, \"end\": 353.663, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 369.005, \"end\": 377.641, \"text\": \"合約裡面有提到說經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料可以提供第三人使用嗎?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 369.005, \"end\": 369.366, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 369.366, \"end\": 369.486, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 369.486, \"end\": 369.566, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 369.566, \"end\": 370.608, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 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\"text\": \"這個是你們給我們看到的這個合約的內容經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的這句話我想請問一下誰來確認經甲方處理並確認黃委員好跟委員報告那因為現在電信事業電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會包括電信事業在那個個人資料保護的這個個案的監視機關也是通傳會所以之後也是會有通傳會這邊來確認以上\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 378.989, \"end\": 379.129, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 379.129, \"end\": 379.95, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 379.95, \"end\": 380.13, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 380.13, \"end\": 380.25, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 380.25, \"end\": 380.371, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 380.371, \"end\": 380.671, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 380.671, \"end\": 380.971, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 380.971, \"end\": 381.231, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 381.231, \"end\": 382.052, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"甲\", \"start\": 382.052, \"end\": 382.212, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 382.212, \"end\": 382.532, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 382.532, \"end\": 383.313, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 383.313, \"end\": 383.453, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 383.453, \"end\": 383.593, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 383.593, \"end\": 383.794, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 383.794, \"end\": 384.174, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"識\"}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 384.174, \"end\": 384.294, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 384.294, \"end\": 384.574, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"句\", \"start\": 384.574, \"end\": 385.295, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 385.295, \"end\": 385.375, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 385.375, \"end\": 385.655, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 385.655, \"end\": 385.775, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 385.775, \"end\": 387.016, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"甲\", \"start\": 387.016, \"end\": 387.196, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 387.196, \"end\": 387.457, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 387.457, \"end\": 387.557, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 387.557, \"end\": 389.779, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 389.779, \"end\": 390.479, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 390.479, \"end\": 390.619, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 390.619, \"end\": 390.92, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 390.92, \"end\": 391.28, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 391.28, \"end\": 391.48, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 391.48, \"end\": 391.8, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 391.8, \"end\": 392.321, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 392.321, \"end\": 392.641, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 392.641, \"end\": 393.582, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 393.582, \"end\": 393.862, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 393.862, \"end\": 393.982, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 393.982, \"end\": 394.122, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 394.122, \"end\": 394.263, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 394.263, \"end\": 394.383, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 394.383, 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\"start\": 397.445, \"end\": 397.626, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 397.626, \"end\": 397.906, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 397.906, \"end\": 398.346, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 398.346, \"end\": 398.446, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 398.446, \"end\": 398.987, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 398.987, \"end\": 399.127, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 399.127, \"end\": 399.267, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 399.267, \"end\": 399.387, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 399.387, \"end\": 399.767, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 399.767, \"end\": 400.388, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 400.388, \"end\": 400.548, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 400.548, \"end\": 400.728, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 400.728, \"end\": 400.828, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 400.828, \"end\": 401.048, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 401.048, \"end\": 401.169, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 401.169, \"end\": 401.269, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 401.269, \"end\": 401.329, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 401.329, \"end\": 401.349, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 403.365, \"end\": 425.249, \"text\": \"所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個金甲方族與冰圈第三人物種識別的乙方資料給電信公司合約上可以這樣做嗎這邊的話如果是通傳會這邊解釋合約這邊如果可以的話那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料那當然就是依照這個合約去處理不是我已經說我可不可以我連去識別化之後我都不提供\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 403.365, \"end\": 403.485, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 403.485, \"end\": 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00:00:17,788\n好,謝謝主席,那我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長NCC陳竺偉陳竺偉跟這個個人資料保護委員會的副主任、正副主任副主任請還有中華電信國董事長國董事長請好\n\n2\n00:00:31,607 --> 00:00:44,473\n謝謝,謝謝各位這個BigBrotheriswatchingyou這個是1949年一個知名的小說老大哥在看著你啊讓我想沒想到2024年可能的這個事件當年的小說變成預言\n\n3\n00:00:47,164 --> 00:01:00,798\n這個上週政論節目裡面這個王一川曾經講過說政策民進黨政策執行長王一川講他們去比對了這個相關的517跟民進黨樓下的訊號比起來不同人那他的說法是依據所謂的電信心理人口統計的資料\n\n4\n00:01:02,139 --> 00:01:28,089\n我想內政部110年的電信資料當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等的都有去統計但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字我想問一下我們陳主委以上的敘述對不對沒有錯這個是大數據分析要去識別化換句話說理論上來講不同的場合、不同的人群理論上是沒辦法做比對的是嗎\n\n5\n00:01:30,503 --> 00:01:55,438\n這個資料基本上來講比如說如果你說做兩個場合來講的話如果大數據分析有一些比如說性別或年紀有些東西輪廓性的資料來講的話還是有可能的比如說這個是學生的活動還是比如說一般成年的活動還是有一些年紀上或性別上還是有區別的好所以主委說有可能去做比對那沒關係如果有可能做比對的話我再確認一件事情誰可以去申請電信心靈資料\n\n6\n00:01:58,797 --> 00:01:59,418\n謝謝主委那我問一下郭董事長\n\n7\n00:02:13,732 --> 00:02:32,931\n黃董事長從這個今年總統大選的造勢晚會然後到今年519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請了手機的這個電信信用資料沒有都沒有那誰可以申請電信資料剛剛主委說\n\n8\n00:02:36,815 --> 00:03:01,720\n主委有沒有回答?我想問一下這個實務面的話誰可以來跟中華電信申請這樣的手續信令資料?我們電信信令資料是不會外流的,剛才有報告那剛才提到的任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行相關的活動我們沒有這樣的一個分析主委,對不起,董事長你說電信信令資料是不能外流的,但是\n\n9\n00:03:02,810 --> 00:03:21,646\n地方政府他們就有掌握到他們就是能夠利用電信資料來做對比啊?報告委員那個是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析應用所以它是另外在另外給你買這個東西嗎?是嗎?就是人潮分析平台上面所產製的大數據的這個分析資料\n\n10\n00:03:22,874 --> 00:03:42,701\n這是公開資訊還是要另外加價購買?這個需要購買的讓我重新再問一次問題今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型集會遊行有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料?報告委員沒有都沒有\n\n11\n00:03:43,761 --> 00:04:13,141\n所以誰可以買?任何人都可以買嗎?任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料大數據資料呢?如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的關關應用或疏解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料呢我們會應這個主管單位的一些例如地方的這個縣市政府的需求然後在最重要的是在合法合規的一個前提下而且重要是要去識別化\n\n12\n00:04:14,042 --> 00:04:16,944\n主管機關針對了所謂的這個觀光或者是交通問題他們可以來購買去做分析比對\n\n13\n00:04:34,802 --> 00:04:50,969\n對,就去識別化之後在分析之前先去識別化好,郭董謝謝那換句話說齁這郭董沒事齁換句話說齁這個這個政策會執行長王岳川在電視上講的這段看起來理論上呢不是從你們這邊來購買的啦對吧不是\n\n14\n00:04:57,190 --> 00:05:18,106\n這我沒有講好那接下來下一段我想問一下我們這個我們數位部我們黃部長部長你在今天的報告裡面提到說除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料才能夠進行交叉比對否則無法連上特定區域某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布是嗎\n\n15\n00:05:18,626 --> 00:05:26,291\n所以技術上可行但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜尤其是當你講到幾萬人的時候那是相當複雜那如果王一川講說他取得的話你覺得這句話有沒有可行性\n\n16\n00:05:45,421 --> 00:05:53,663\n最後因為時間不夠我來問一下我們這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處你在今天報告裡面提到一件事情第二頁的部分然後後面提到在這個合約裡面我們都很在意我們個人資料保護但是在這個\n\n17\n00:06:09,005 --> 00:06:17,641\n合約裡面有提到說經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料可以提供第三人使用嗎?\n\n18\n00:06:18,989 --> 00:06:41,349\n這個是你們給我們看到的這個合約的內容經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的這句話我想請問一下誰來確認經甲方處理並確認黃委員好跟委員報告那因為現在電信事業電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會包括電信事業在那個個人資料保護的這個個案的監視機關也是通傳會所以之後也是會有通傳會這邊來確認以上\n\n19\n00:06:43,365 --> 00:07:05,249\n所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個金甲方族與冰圈第三人物種識別的乙方資料給電信公司合約上可以這樣做嗎這邊的話如果是通傳會這邊解釋合約這邊如果可以的話那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料那當然就是依照這個合約去處理不是我已經說我可不可以我連去識別化之後我都不提供\n\n20\n00:07:06,824 --> 00:07:06,924\n主席\n\n21\n00:07:27,978 --> 00:07:41,267\n有,當然你如果要變更的話你就要同時就是說我原來來講的話比如說這個契約裡面來講的話當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題嘛他如果覺得他的個人資料有這個疑慮他可以要求這個電信公司他可以退出的問題\n\n22\n00:07:42,704 --> 00:08:00,841\n最後一個時間了我不知道這個是誰主管機關過去疫情的時候有統計到有這個所謂電子城牆的問題那當然依法理論上你們是消除了那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除在哪裡\n\n23\n00:08:02,281 --> 00:08:19,428\n這個執行過程在哪裡我請我們的同仁來我們先去檢查報告委員那個我們是配合那個疫情結束後12年5月因為降階以後就是這套監控系統都全部停止那我們都是配合那個衛福部的\n\n24\n00:08:20,328 --> 00:08:41,983\n因應衛福部的要求我們還分別了我們NCC分別去了五趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除以上所以疫情期間收集的、處理的、利用的這些個人資料還有他們去過的任何的地方的相關資料在現階段都已經消除了\n\n25\n00:08:43,885 --> 00:09:04,805\n疫情期間也曾經大家也看到了不管是這個天下雜誌還是我們這個以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好就是說台灣實際上能夠做到監控這個人流監控手機的這個透過手機來監控人的這個流向這件事情我想問一下我們NCC我們陳主委現階段技術上到底做不做到這件事情\n\n26\n00:09:06,376 --> 00:09:26,854\n委員你問的是個人還是說人流個人個人基本上來講的話你要手機當然有啊因為基本上比如說你要救災要救人或者是說比如說歧視犯罪可能有通報的這個問題技術上來講是有可行的但是說你如果沒有有沒有所謂的法律規定嘛你如果違反法律規定的話就違反各自法或者是相關的法律\n\n27\n00:09:27,515 --> 00:09:46,290\n所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當所要有法律的依據還有法律的程序法定程序才可以所以如果沒有通過法律程序取得了這些個人的資料的話他就是違法對吧對如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得但是會受會可能侵害到個人的資料各自好主委謝謝部長謝謝大家謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5125\t17788\t好,謝謝主席,那我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長NCC陳竺偉陳竺偉跟這個個人資料保護委員會的副主任、正副主任副主任請還有中華電信國董事長國董事長請好\n31607\t44473\t謝謝,謝謝各位這個Big Brother is watching you這個是1949年一個知名的小說老大哥在看著你啊讓我想沒想到2024年可能的這個事件當年的小說變成預言\n47164\t60798\t這個上週政論節目裡面這個王一川曾經講過說政策民進黨政策執行長王一川講他們去比對了這個相關的517跟民進黨樓下的訊號比起來不同人那他的說法是依據所謂的電信心理人口統計的資料\n62139\t88089\t我想內政部110年的電信資料當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等的都有去統計但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字我想問一下我們陳主委以上的敘述對不對沒有錯 這個是大數據分析要去識別化換句話說 理論上來講不同的場合、不同的人群理論上是沒辦法做比對的 是嗎\n90503\t115438\t這個資料基本上來講比如說如果你說做兩個場合來講的話如果大數據分析有一些比如說性別或年紀有些東西輪廓性的資料來講的話還是有可能的比如說這個是學生的活動還是比如說一般成年的活動還是有一些年紀上或性別上還是有區別的好所以主委說有可能去做比對那沒關係如果有可能做比對的話我再確認一件事情誰可以去申請電信心靈資料\n118797\t119418\t謝謝主委 那我問一下郭董事長\n133732\t152931\t黃董事長從這個今年總統大選的造勢晚會然後到今年519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請了手機的這個電信信用資料沒有都沒有那誰可以申請電信資料剛剛主委說\n156815\t181720\t主委有沒有回答?我想問一下這個實務面的話誰可以來跟中華電信申請這樣的手續信令資料?我們電信信令資料是不會外流的,剛才有報告那剛才提到的任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行相關的活動我們沒有這樣的一個分析主委,對不起,董事長你說電信信令資料是不能外流的,但是\n182810\t201646\t地方政府他們就有掌握到他們就是能夠利用電信資料來做對比啊?報告委員那個是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析應用所以它是另外在另外給你買這個東西嗎?是嗎?就是人潮分析平台上面所產製的大數據的這個分析資料\n202874\t222701\t這是公開資訊還是要另外加價購買?這個需要購買的讓我重新再問一次問題今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型集會遊行有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料?報告委員沒有都沒有\n223761\t253141\t所以誰可以買?任何人都可以買嗎?任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料大數據資料呢?如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的關關應用或疏解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料呢我們會應這個主管單位的一些例如地方的這個縣市政府的需求然後在最重要的是在合法合規的一個前提下而且重要是要去識別化\n254042\t256944\t主管機關針對了所謂的這個觀光或者是交通問題他們可以來購買去做分析比對\n274802\t290969\t對,就去識別化之後在分析之前先去識別化好,郭董謝謝那換句話說齁這郭董沒事齁換句話說齁這個這個政策會執行長王岳川在電視上講的這段看起來理論上呢不是從你們這邊來購買的啦對吧不是\n297190\t318106\t這我沒有講好那接下來下一段我想問一下我們這個我們數位部我們黃部長部長你在今天的報告裡面提到說除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料才能夠進行交叉比對否則無法連上特定區域某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布是嗎\n318626\t326291\t所以技術上可行但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜尤其是當你講到幾萬人的時候那是相當複雜那如果王一川講說他取得的話你覺得這句話有沒有可行性\n345421\t353663\t最後因為時間不夠我來問一下我們這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處你在今天報告裡面提到一件事情第二頁的部分然後後面提到在這個合約裡面我們都很在意我們個人資料保護但是在這個\n369005\t377641\t合約裡面有提到說經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料可以提供第三人使用嗎?\n378989\t401349\t這個是你們給我們看到的這個合約的內容經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的這句話我想請問一下誰來確認經甲方處理並確認黃委員好跟委員報告那因為現在電信事業電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會包括電信事業在那個個人資料保護的這個個案的監視機關也是通傳會所以之後也是會有通傳會這邊來確認以上\n403365\t425249\t所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個金甲方族與冰圈第三人物種識別的乙方資料給電信公司合約上可以這樣做嗎這邊的話如果是通傳會這邊解釋合約這邊如果可以的話那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料那當然就是依照這個合約去處理不是我已經說我可不可以我連去識別化之後我都不提供\n426824\t426924\t主席\n447978\t461267\t有,當然你如果要變更的話你就要同時就是說我原來來講的話比如說這個契約裡面來講的話當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題嘛他如果覺得他的個人資料有這個疑慮他可以要求這個電信公司他可以退出的問題\n462704\t480841\t最後一個時間了 我不知道這個是誰主管機關過去疫情的時候有統計到有這個所謂電子城牆的問題那當然依法理論上你們是消除了 那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除在哪裡\n482281\t499428\t這個執行過程在哪裡我請我們的同仁來我們先去檢查報告委員那個我們是配合那個疫情結束後12年5月因為降階以後就是這套監控系統都全部停止那我們都是配合那個衛福部的\n500328\t521983\t因應衛福部的要求我們還分別了我們NCC分別去了五趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除以上所以疫情期間收集的、處理的、利用的這些個人資料還有他們去過的任何的地方的相關資料在現階段都已經消除了\n523885\t544805\t疫情期間也曾經大家也看到了不管是這個天下雜誌還是我們這個以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好就是說台灣實際上能夠做到監控這個人流監控手機的這個透過手機來監控人的這個流向這件事情我想問一下我們NCC我們陳主委現階段技術上到底做不做到這件事情\n546376\t566854\t委員你問的是個人還是說人流個人個人基本上來講的話你要手機當然有啊因為基本上比如說你要救災要救人或者是說比如說歧視犯罪可能有通報的這個問題技術上來講是有可行的但是說你如果沒有有沒有所謂的法律規定嘛你如果違反法律規定的話就違反各自法或者是相關的法律\n567515\t586290\t所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當所要有法律的依據還有法律的程序法定程序才可以所以如果沒有通過法律程序取得了這些個人的資料的話他就是違法對吧對如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得但是會受會可能侵害到個人的資料各自好主委謝謝部長謝謝大家謝謝\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席,那我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長NCC陳竺偉陳竺偉跟這個個人資料保護委員會的副主任、正副主任副主任請還有中華電信國董事長國董事長請好\n謝謝,謝謝各位這個Big Brother is watching you這個是1949年一個知名的小說老大哥在看著你啊讓我想沒想到2024年可能的這個事件當年的小說變成預言\n這個上週政論節目裡面這個王一川曾經講過說政策民進黨政策執行長王一川講他們去比對了這個相關的517跟民進黨樓下的訊號比起來不同人那他的說法是依據所謂的電信心理人口統計的資料\n我想內政部110年的電信資料當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等的都有去統計但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字我想問一下我們陳主委以上的敘述對不對沒有錯 這個是大數據分析要去識別化換句話說 理論上來講不同的場合、不同的人群理論上是沒辦法做比對的 是嗎\n這個資料基本上來講比如說如果你說做兩個場合來講的話如果大數據分析有一些比如說性別或年紀有些東西輪廓性的資料來講的話還是有可能的比如說這個是學生的活動還是比如說一般成年的活動還是有一些年紀上或性別上還是有區別的好所以主委說有可能去做比對那沒關係如果有可能做比對的話我再確認一件事情誰可以去申請電信心靈資料\n謝謝主委 那我問一下郭董事長\n黃董事長從這個今年總統大選的造勢晚會然後到今年519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請了手機的這個電信信用資料沒有都沒有那誰可以申請電信資料剛剛主委說\n主委有沒有回答?我想問一下這個實務面的話誰可以來跟中華電信申請這樣的手續信令資料?我們電信信令資料是不會外流的,剛才有報告那剛才提到的任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行相關的活動我們沒有這樣的一個分析主委,對不起,董事長你說電信信令資料是不能外流的,但是\n地方政府他們就有掌握到他們就是能夠利用電信資料來做對比啊?報告委員那個是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析應用所以它是另外在另外給你買這個東西嗎?是嗎?就是人潮分析平台上面所產製的大數據的這個分析資料\n這是公開資訊還是要另外加價購買?這個需要購買的讓我重新再問一次問題今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型集會遊行有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料?報告委員沒有都沒有\n所以誰可以買?任何人都可以買嗎?任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料大數據資料呢?如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的關關應用或疏解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料呢我們會應這個主管單位的一些例如地方的這個縣市政府的需求然後在最重要的是在合法合規的一個前提下而且重要是要去識別化\n主管機關針對了所謂的這個觀光或者是交通問題他們可以來購買去做分析比對\n對,就去識別化之後在分析之前先去識別化好,郭董謝謝那換句話說齁這郭董沒事齁換句話說齁這個這個政策會執行長王岳川在電視上講的這段看起來理論上呢不是從你們這邊來購買的啦對吧不是\n這我沒有講好那接下來下一段我想問一下我們這個我們數位部我們黃部長部長你在今天的報告裡面提到說除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料才能夠進行交叉比對否則無法連上特定區域某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布是嗎\n所以技術上可行但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜尤其是當你講到幾萬人的時候那是相當複雜那如果王一川講說他取得的話你覺得這句話有沒有可行性\n最後因為時間不夠我來問一下我們這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處你在今天報告裡面提到一件事情第二頁的部分然後後面提到在這個合約裡面我們都很在意我們個人資料保護但是在這個\n合約裡面有提到說經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料可以提供第三人使用嗎?\n這個是你們給我們看到的這個合約的內容經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的這句話我想請問一下誰來確認經甲方處理並確認黃委員好跟委員報告那因為現在電信事業電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會包括電信事業在那個個人資料保護的這個個案的監視機關也是通傳會所以之後也是會有通傳會這邊來確認以上\n所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個金甲方族與冰圈第三人物種識別的乙方資料給電信公司合約上可以這樣做嗎這邊的話如果是通傳會這邊解釋合約這邊如果可以的話那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料那當然就是依照這個合約去處理不是我已經說我可不可以我連去識別化之後我都不提供\n主席\n有,當然你如果要變更的話你就要同時就是說我原來來講的話比如說這個契約裡面來講的話當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題嘛他如果覺得他的個人資料有這個疑慮他可以要求這個電信公司他可以退出的問題\n最後一個時間了 我不知道這個是誰主管機關過去疫情的時候有統計到有這個所謂電子城牆的問題那當然依法理論上你們是消除了 那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除在哪裡\n這個執行過程在哪裡我請我們的同仁來我們先去檢查報告委員那個我們是配合那個疫情結束後12年5月因為降階以後就是這套監控系統都全部停止那我們都是配合那個衛福部的\n因應衛福部的要求我們還分別了我們NCC分別去了五趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除以上所以疫情期間收集的、處理的、利用的這些個人資料還有他們去過的任何的地方的相關資料在現階段都已經消除了\n疫情期間也曾經大家也看到了不管是這個天下雜誌還是我們這個以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好就是說台灣實際上能夠做到監控這個人流監控手機的這個透過手機來監控人的這個流向這件事情我想問一下我們NCC我們陳主委現階段技術上到底做不做到這件事情\n委員你問的是個人還是說人流個人個人基本上來講的話你要手機當然有啊因為基本上比如說你要救災要救人或者是說比如說歧視犯罪可能有通報的這個問題技術上來講是有可行的但是說你如果沒有有沒有所謂的法律規定嘛你如果違反法律規定的話就違反各自法或者是相關的法律\n所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當所要有法律的依據還有法律的程序法定程序才可以所以如果沒有通過法律程序取得了這些個人的資料的話他就是違法對吧對如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得但是會受會可能侵害到個人的資料各自好主委謝謝部長謝謝大家謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.125 --> 00:17.788\n好,謝謝主席,那我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長NCC陳竺偉陳竺偉跟這個個人資料保護委員會的副主任、正副主任副主任請還有中華電信國董事長國董事長請好\n\n00:31.607 --> 00:44.473\n謝謝,謝謝各位這個BigBrotheriswatchingyou這個是1949年一個知名的小說老大哥在看著你啊讓我想沒想到2024年可能的這個事件當年的小說變成預言\n\n00:47.164 --> 01:00.798\n這個上週政論節目裡面這個王一川曾經講過說政策民進黨政策執行長王一川講他們去比對了這個相關的517跟民進黨樓下的訊號比起來不同人那他的說法是依據所謂的電信心理人口統計的資料\n\n01:02.139 --> 01:28.089\n我想內政部110年的電信資料當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等的都有去統計但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字我想問一下我們陳主委以上的敘述對不對沒有錯這個是大數據分析要去識別化換句話說理論上來講不同的場合、不同的人群理論上是沒辦法做比對的是嗎\n\n01:30.503 --> 01:55.438\n這個資料基本上來講比如說如果你說做兩個場合來講的話如果大數據分析有一些比如說性別或年紀有些東西輪廓性的資料來講的話還是有可能的比如說這個是學生的活動還是比如說一般成年的活動還是有一些年紀上或性別上還是有區別的好所以主委說有可能去做比對那沒關係如果有可能做比對的話我再確認一件事情誰可以去申請電信心靈資料\n\n01:58.797 --> 01:59.418\n謝謝主委那我問一下郭董事長\n\n02:13.732 --> 02:32.931\n黃董事長從這個今年總統大選的造勢晚會然後到今年519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請了手機的這個電信信用資料沒有都沒有那誰可以申請電信資料剛剛主委說\n\n02:36.815 --> 03:01.720\n主委有沒有回答?我想問一下這個實務面的話誰可以來跟中華電信申請這樣的手續信令資料?我們電信信令資料是不會外流的,剛才有報告那剛才提到的任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行相關的活動我們沒有這樣的一個分析主委,對不起,董事長你說電信信令資料是不能外流的,但是\n\n03:02.810 --> 03:21.646\n地方政府他們就有掌握到他們就是能夠利用電信資料來做對比啊?報告委員那個是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析應用所以它是另外在另外給你買這個東西嗎?是嗎?就是人潮分析平台上面所產製的大數據的這個分析資料\n\n03:22.874 --> 03:42.701\n這是公開資訊還是要另外加價購買?這個需要購買的讓我重新再問一次問題今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型集會遊行有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料?報告委員沒有都沒有\n\n03:43.761 --> 04:13.141\n所以誰可以買?任何人都可以買嗎?任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料大數據資料呢?如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的關關應用或疏解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料呢我們會應這個主管單位的一些例如地方的這個縣市政府的需求然後在最重要的是在合法合規的一個前提下而且重要是要去識別化\n\n04:14.042 --> 04:16.944\n主管機關針對了所謂的這個觀光或者是交通問題他們可以來購買去做分析比對\n\n04:34.802 --> 04:50.969\n對,就去識別化之後在分析之前先去識別化好,郭董謝謝那換句話說齁這郭董沒事齁換句話說齁這個這個政策會執行長王岳川在電視上講的這段看起來理論上呢不是從你們這邊來購買的啦對吧不是\n\n04:57.190 --> 05:18.106\n這我沒有講好那接下來下一段我想問一下我們這個我們數位部我們黃部長部長你在今天的報告裡面提到說除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料才能夠進行交叉比對否則無法連上特定區域某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布是嗎\n\n05:18.626 --> 05:26.291\n所以技術上可行但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜尤其是當你講到幾萬人的時候那是相當複雜那如果王一川講說他取得的話你覺得這句話有沒有可行性\n\n05:45.421 --> 05:53.663\n最後因為時間不夠我來問一下我們這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處你在今天報告裡面提到一件事情第二頁的部分然後後面提到在這個合約裡面我們都很在意我們個人資料保護但是在這個\n\n06:09.005 --> 06:17.641\n合約裡面有提到說經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料可以提供第三人使用嗎?\n\n06:18.989 --> 06:41.349\n這個是你們給我們看到的這個合約的內容經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的這句話我想請問一下誰來確認經甲方處理並確認黃委員好跟委員報告那因為現在電信事業電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會包括電信事業在那個個人資料保護的這個個案的監視機關也是通傳會所以之後也是會有通傳會這邊來確認以上\n\n06:43.365 --> 07:05.249\n所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個金甲方族與冰圈第三人物種識別的乙方資料給電信公司合約上可以這樣做嗎這邊的話如果是通傳會這邊解釋合約這邊如果可以的話那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料那當然就是依照這個合約去處理不是我已經說我可不可以我連去識別化之後我都不提供\n\n07:06.824 --> 07:06.924\n主席\n\n07:27.978 --> 07:41.267\n有,當然你如果要變更的話你就要同時就是說我原來來講的話比如說這個契約裡面來講的話當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題嘛他如果覺得他的個人資料有這個疑慮他可以要求這個電信公司他可以退出的問題\n\n07:42.704 --> 08:00.841\n最後一個時間了我不知道這個是誰主管機關過去疫情的時候有統計到有這個所謂電子城牆的問題那當然依法理論上你們是消除了那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除在哪裡\n\n08:02.281 --> 08:19.428\n這個執行過程在哪裡我請我們的同仁來我們先去檢查報告委員那個我們是配合那個疫情結束後12年5月因為降階以後就是這套監控系統都全部停止那我們都是配合那個衛福部的\n\n08:20.328 --> 08:41.983\n因應衛福部的要求我們還分別了我們NCC分別去了五趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除以上所以疫情期間收集的、處理的、利用的這些個人資料還有他們去過的任何的地方的相關資料在現階段都已經消除了\n\n08:43.885 --> 09:04.805\n疫情期間也曾經大家也看到了不管是這個天下雜誌還是我們這個以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好就是說台灣實際上能夠做到監控這個人流監控手機的這個透過手機來監控人的這個流向這件事情我想問一下我們NCC我們陳主委現階段技術上到底做不做到這件事情\n\n09:06.376 --> 09:26.854\n委員你問的是個人還是說人流個人個人基本上來講的話你要手機當然有啊因為基本上比如說你要救災要救人或者是說比如說歧視犯罪可能有通報的這個問題技術上來講是有可行的但是說你如果沒有有沒有所謂的法律規定嘛你如果違反法律規定的話就違反各自法或者是相關的法律\n\n09:27.515 --> 09:46.290\n所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當所要有法律的依據還有法律的程序法定程序才可以所以如果沒有通過法律程序取得了這些個人的資料的話他就是違法對吧對如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得但是會受會可能侵害到個人的資料各自好主委謝謝部長謝謝大家謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.125,"end":17.788,"text":"好,謝謝主席,那我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長NCC陳竺偉陳竺偉跟這個個人資料保護委員會的副主任、正副主任副主任請還有中華電信國董事長國董事長請好"},{"start":31.607,"end":44.473,"text":"謝謝,謝謝各位這個Big Brother is watching you這個是1949年一個知名的小說老大哥在看著你啊讓我想沒想到2024年可能的這個事件當年的小說變成預言"},{"start":47.164,"end":60.798,"text":"這個上週政論節目裡面這個王一川曾經講過說政策民進黨政策執行長王一川講他們去比對了這個相關的517跟民進黨樓下的訊號比起來不同人那他的說法是依據所謂的電信心理人口統計的資料"},{"start":62.139,"end":88.089,"text":"我想內政部110年的電信資料當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等的都有去統計但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字我想問一下我們陳主委以上的敘述對不對沒有錯 這個是大數據分析要去識別化換句話說 理論上來講不同的場合、不同的人群理論上是沒辦法做比對的 是嗎"},{"start":90.503,"end":115.438,"text":"這個資料基本上來講比如說如果你說做兩個場合來講的話如果大數據分析有一些比如說性別或年紀有些東西輪廓性的資料來講的話還是有可能的比如說這個是學生的活動還是比如說一般成年的活動還是有一些年紀上或性別上還是有區別的好所以主委說有可能去做比對那沒關係如果有可能做比對的話我再確認一件事情誰可以去申請電信心靈資料"},{"start":118.797,"end":119.418,"text":"謝謝主委 那我問一下郭董事長"},{"start":133.732,"end":152.931,"text":"黃董事長從這個今年總統大選的造勢晚會然後到今年519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請了手機的這個電信信用資料沒有都沒有那誰可以申請電信資料剛剛主委說"},{"start":156.815,"end":181.72,"text":"主委有沒有回答?我想問一下這個實務面的話誰可以來跟中華電信申請這樣的手續信令資料?我們電信信令資料是不會外流的,剛才有報告那剛才提到的任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行相關的活動我們沒有這樣的一個分析主委,對不起,董事長你說電信信令資料是不能外流的,但是"},{"start":182.81,"end":201.646,"text":"地方政府他們就有掌握到他們就是能夠利用電信資料來做對比啊?報告委員那個是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析應用所以它是另外在另外給你買這個東西嗎?是嗎?就是人潮分析平台上面所產製的大數據的這個分析資料"},{"start":202.874,"end":222.701,"text":"這是公開資訊還是要另外加價購買?這個需要購買的讓我重新再問一次問題今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型集會遊行有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料?報告委員沒有都沒有"},{"start":223.761,"end":253.141,"text":"所以誰可以買?任何人都可以買嗎?任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料大數據資料呢?如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的關關應用或疏解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料呢我們會應這個主管單位的一些例如地方的這個縣市政府的需求然後在最重要的是在合法合規的一個前提下而且重要是要去識別化"},{"start":254.042,"end":256.944,"text":"主管機關針對了所謂的這個觀光或者是交通問題他們可以來購買去做分析比對"},{"start":274.802,"end":290.969,"text":"對,就去識別化之後在分析之前先去識別化好,郭董謝謝那換句話說齁這郭董沒事齁換句話說齁這個這個政策會執行長王岳川在電視上講的這段看起來理論上呢不是從你們這邊來購買的啦對吧不是"},{"start":297.19,"end":318.106,"text":"這我沒有講好那接下來下一段我想問一下我們這個我們數位部我們黃部長部長你在今天的報告裡面提到說除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料才能夠進行交叉比對否則無法連上特定區域某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布是嗎"},{"start":318.626,"end":326.291,"text":"所以技術上可行但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜尤其是當你講到幾萬人的時候那是相當複雜那如果王一川講說他取得的話你覺得這句話有沒有可行性"},{"start":345.421,"end":353.663,"text":"最後因為時間不夠我來問一下我們這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處你在今天報告裡面提到一件事情第二頁的部分然後後面提到在這個合約裡面我們都很在意我們個人資料保護但是在這個"},{"start":369.005,"end":377.641,"text":"合約裡面有提到說經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料可以提供第三人使用嗎?"},{"start":378.989,"end":401.349,"text":"這個是你們給我們看到的這個合約的內容經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的這句話我想請問一下誰來確認經甲方處理並確認黃委員好跟委員報告那因為現在電信事業電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會包括電信事業在那個個人資料保護的這個個案的監視機關也是通傳會所以之後也是會有通傳會這邊來確認以上"},{"start":403.365,"end":425.249,"text":"所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個金甲方族與冰圈第三人物種識別的乙方資料給電信公司合約上可以這樣做嗎這邊的話如果是通傳會這邊解釋合約這邊如果可以的話那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料那當然就是依照這個合約去處理不是我已經說我可不可以我連去識別化之後我都不提供"},{"start":426.824,"end":426.924,"text":"主席"},{"start":447.978,"end":461.267,"text":"有,當然你如果要變更的話你就要同時就是說我原來來講的話比如說這個契約裡面來講的話當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題嘛他如果覺得他的個人資料有這個疑慮他可以要求這個電信公司他可以退出的問題"},{"start":462.704,"end":480.841,"text":"最後一個時間了 我不知道這個是誰主管機關過去疫情的時候有統計到有這個所謂電子城牆的問題那當然依法理論上你們是消除了 那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除在哪裡"},{"start":482.281,"end":499.428,"text":"這個執行過程在哪裡我請我們的同仁來我們先去檢查報告委員那個我們是配合那個疫情結束後12年5月因為降階以後就是這套監控系統都全部停止那我們都是配合那個衛福部的"},{"start":500.328,"end":521.983,"text":"因應衛福部的要求我們還分別了我們NCC分別去了五趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除以上所以疫情期間收集的、處理的、利用的這些個人資料還有他們去過的任何的地方的相關資料在現階段都已經消除了"},{"start":523.885,"end":544.805,"text":"疫情期間也曾經大家也看到了不管是這個天下雜誌還是我們這個以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好就是說台灣實際上能夠做到監控這個人流監控手機的這個透過手機來監控人的這個流向這件事情我想問一下我們NCC我們陳主委現階段技術上到底做不做到這件事情"},{"start":546.376,"end":566.854,"text":"委員你問的是個人還是說人流個人個人基本上來講的話你要手機當然有啊因為基本上比如說你要救災要救人或者是說比如說歧視犯罪可能有通報的這個問題技術上來講是有可行的但是說你如果沒有有沒有所謂的法律規定嘛你如果違反法律規定的話就違反各自法或者是相關的法律"},{"start":567.515,"end":586.29,"text":"所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當所要有法律的依據還有法律的程序法定程序才可以所以如果沒有通過法律程序取得了這些個人的資料的話他就是違法對吧對如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得但是會受會可能侵害到個人的資料各自好主委謝謝部長謝謝大家謝謝"}]}}}}