{"id":153445,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153445","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7075c24a0d4663ffc47b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0cc7dd2f281fdf83155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:57:37 - 10:08:36","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:57:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T10:08:36+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":319,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時57分）主席，有請莊部長還有陳主計長。"],["主席：請莊部長還有陳主計長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。你剛剛提到過去經過五次修法都沒有辦法修成，歷經了二十幾年，看起來你要再一次諮詢地方政府的財政單位。預計這個會期會提，還是下個會期會提院版？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分沒有時間表，為什麼？因為……"],["郭委員國文：沒有時間表？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為目前的差距還很大，我們儘量縮小。"],["郭委員國文：可是已經兵臨城下了，在野黨如果按照職權行使法的方式強行輾壓的話，再這樣拖下去，你的統籌分配款就沒有了，你知道嗎？你不擔心嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們希望不要這樣，為什麼？因為地方的財政要考慮，中央的財政韌性……"],["郭委員國文：好，你不希望這樣子，如果強行輾壓下去的話……我想請問一下主計長，強行輾壓下去，整個統籌分配款按照國民黨的版本，多給地方五千多億的情況下，傅崐萁總召又提到7月16號花東三案2兆的法案要通過，主計長編得出來嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果是5,777億影響真的很大，對中央總預算的籌編是有困難的，因為目前大家初步報114年的金額，大概有三兆兩千多億的概算。"],["郭委員國文：籌編有困難難道要舉債嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有辦法舉債，因為舉債有限制，總預算加特別預算流量是15%，這樣子的話……"],["郭委員國文：所以連舉債也沒有辦法處理。"],["陳主計長淑姿：連舉債都沒辦法。"],["郭委員國文：連舉債都沒有辦法處理。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：剛剛大家有提到一點，部長也有提到這個部分還牽扯到其他事權，其他委員也有提到其他的法。你認為地方財政只有一個財政收支劃分法就可以決定嗎？還有沒有其他法案相關聯？"],["陳主計長淑姿：地方制度法。"],["郭委員國文：還有什麼法？"],["莊部長翠雲：主要是那個，因為地方制度法裡面有地方自治的……"],["郭委員國文：地方制度法牽扯到分責、分權的問題嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個就是權責。"],["郭委員國文：分責、分權的部分就牽扯到財政負擔比例的問題，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：地方制度法是一個關鍵，地方稅法通則是不是也是一個關鍵？"],["莊部長翠雲：地方稅法裡面當然有規定地方可以徵取一樣的稅。"],["郭委員國文：對，但是嚴格來說，地方稅法通則有四大限制，限制過多以至於地方縣市真的想自行找到稅基的可能性也不是非常多，是不是這個部分要通盤檢討一下，讓地方承擔起責任？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然這個部分我們也可以再通盤……"],["郭委員國文：一併思考，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：再檢視。"],["郭委員國文：對，就是要一併思考嘛！跟地方財政相關的不是只有財劃法而已，對不對？地方稅法通則、地方制度法，甚至連公債法都有關聯性，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：公債法裡面當然最主要第一個就是有債限，也就是說，有一個債限在裡面。"],["郭委員國文：對，有一個債限，跟地方的財政有所關聯，對不對？舉凡跟地方財政相關夯不啷當，至少有這四個法要處理，你是不是要拿出四個法的配套才有可能健全地方的財政，而不是只從財劃法垂直思考，取奪更多中央的預算而已，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說的是，也就是在垂直分配這一塊，除了要求把稅款撥出這麼多，也要考慮事權。"],["郭委員國文：對，所以說……"],["莊部長翠雲：事權跟分配是有關係的。"],["郭委員國文：部長、主計長，你們不要陷入現在國、眾兩黨的思維，我們如果真的要健全地方財政，從這樣的思維思考的話，這四個法都要處理，對不對？如果四個法都要處理的話，你就要提出整個版本，這才是真的為了地方財政健全思考。更何況他說比例失衡，你要思考最近比例失衡的原因在哪裡。最近國稅增加比較多，還是地方稅增加比較多？"],["莊部長翠雲：國稅跟地稅都有增加，當然在地稅的部分，我們也希望地方政府能夠在財政的部分努力。"],["郭委員國文：說是這麼說，但是比例增加的很少，最近都是證交稅、營業稅、所得稅增加很多，對不對？原因是不是在這邊？"],["莊部長翠雲：證交稅確實增加比較多。"],["郭委員國文：對，你看看這兩年的補助款高達八千多億，真正地方的缺口大概是五百多億，對不對？從預算估計的話大概550左右。我跟你算過，老實說，1999年精省之後財劃法通過，我們有一個比例上有拗到地方，就是原來營業稅中央的占比大概50%，精省過之後營業稅的部分中央變占60%，我算過這10%挪過去之後多了五百多億出來，地方就不至於負債了。最起碼你修法的目標不要造成地方上的負擔，這是第一個，要展現誠意。中央、地方搶錢大作戰，你看民眾黨大概多了三百多億，營所稅多這5%根本是高虹安條款，營所稅是高虹安條款。另外，國民黨還有3%的首都條款，那是蔣萬安條款嘛！剛剛李坤城擔心新北市，新北市裡頭人口的占比，國民黨的版本占67%之多，67%的比例是以人口來計算，這個根本是新北市條款。整個國民黨的版本除了厚首都、厚雙北之外，還厚縣市，這個是for國民黨執政縣市而訂定的財劃法法案，對不對？是不是如此？部長，我看你在點頭，你有沒有勇氣講出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前的版本以人口數作為很重的指標，確實會變成人口多的地方政府分配的會更大。"],["郭委員國文：對，人口數最多的就是新北、臺北、臺中，對不對？整個版本是厚國民黨執政，輕民進黨執政，瘦到南、高，對不對？分配上會變成這樣子，不是嗎？你剛剛提到統籌分配款是為了整個均衡發展，政策目標是這樣子。我覺得你接下來提出來的時候一定要以正視聽，統籌分配這個目標不是這樣處理的。橫向的分配來說，過往我們的統籌分配太偏重都會，以前就過多偏重都會；整個農村地區，像我所在的臺南偏重的部分，農地只能農用，都市的土地都能夠建造房子，配置上本來就不公平。部長，你接下來的修法有沒有可能打破這個框架，達到均衡的發展？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒錯，中央統籌分配稅款的目的就是在於調劑盈虛，因為各地方政府的自然條件不同、工商條件也不同，所以這個部分就是要我們在水平分配上要能夠做到調劑盈虛及區域均衡發展，這是非常重要的。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，部長，我再提醒一下，我想依照國民黨的也好，民眾黨的也好，他們唯一正當性的理由在哪裡？就是財劃法該修，但是不具正當性的理由是財劃法不能亂修，不能只有以自己執政縣市的觀點來做分配而已，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是……"],["郭委員國文：是沒有錯嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：一定要去考慮整個平衡性。"],["郭委員國文：整個平衡性嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["郭委員國文：如果是這樣平衡性的思考，你在架構這個思維的時候，要有一定的說服力，地方或許有不同的意見，地方會有本位思考的考量，地方想要爭取比較多的自有財源，這都屬正常，當地方都屬正常的情況底下，最後還是部長要拍板定案，財政部的版本出來之後，才有可能送到院，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：部長，所以你還是要抓一個時間點，你不能用沒有時間表作為一個理由、說法，這樣你很難說服目前立法院提出版本的相關黨團。"],["莊部長翠雲：瞭解，我們現在就努力在做，努力這個部分，一定要把共識凝聚出來。"],["郭委員國文：那有沒有時間表？"],["莊部長翠雲：那就要看大家的共識什麼時候可以達成……"],["郭委員國文：我建議……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為沒有共識的情況下，縱使推出版本，也沒有辦法完成修法。"],["郭委員國文：我是覺得你要推出版本的同時，就如同我剛剛所講的，適時的把部分地方制度法的條文或者地方稅法通則的條文，還有包括公債法的條文，重點條文的部分也要納入，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：但是因為地方制度法涉及到內政部的權責……"],["郭委員國文：對，我當然知道地制法是內政部的權力，但是大部分的法案都是你主政的，你主政的範圍先思考，可以不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，當然，有關地方稅法通則，我們也可以再來做檢視……"],["郭委員國文：對呀！不然，這種法修過之後，像馬祖地區整年的預算才44億，光中央補助統籌分配款，將來通過之後，會超過100億，一下子稅收增加double，你想它要怎麼執行，你有沒有考慮到？不是錢多而已，你要考慮到地方有沒有能力執行，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，財政紀律也是非常重要。"],["郭委員國文：對，財政紀律很重要，所以你要把這些不合理性一一列舉出來，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是、是。"],["郭委員國文：我想本委員會當中不分黨派基本上都認為要修，但是問題是怎麼修，怎麼修的癥結點還是來自於部的基本上的指標，好不好？","最後，我要問一下主計長，主計長，你知道我上上週有跟財政委員會去考察財政部所屬的文化資產部分，跟3年前的考察相比，這個其實都沒有變，為什麼沒有變？居然賦稅署的一個訓練中心連規劃費用的維修費用都拿不出錢來，還要4成跟新北市要，4成跟文化部要，它只能拿出2成，花了3年的時間，修復費用還高達1億多，一個超過120年的文化資產，就放在那裡「拋荒」。主計長，你上任之後，能不能來解決這個問題？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們來協助解決。"],["郭委員國文：好，協助處理，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：這個國家文化資產是屬於大家的，不能丟給部會，讓他們去傷腦筋，該花的錢要花……"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是各部會……"],["郭委員國文：你沒有修好之前，臺北市政府不可能移撥接管，莊部長，這件事情也麻煩你放在心上，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，是的。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝兩位，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"153445","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153445","tool":"pyannote","id":"153445-pyannote"},"job_id":"0RxQc8bIpHN8gq5R","queued_at":"2024-06-03 15:08:24","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-03 15:09:08","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153445"},{"time":"2024-06-03 15:09:09","msg":"downloading 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\"end\": 657.265, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 657.265, \"end\": 657.925, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 657.925, \"end\": 658.246, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 658.246, \"end\": 658.366, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 658.366, \"end\": 658.926, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 658.926, \"end\": 659.367, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 659.367, \"end\": 659.387, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,608 --> 00:00:13,793\n主席有請總部長還有陳主席長請總部長還有陳主席長委員好部長好部長你剛剛提到因為過去經過5次的修法都沒有辦法修成那歷經了20幾年那看起來你要再一次的諮詢地方政府的財政單位那預計是這個會期會提還是下個會期會提\n\n2\n00:00:35,478 --> 00:00:54,289\n委員報告,這個部分我就講說沒有時間表,為什麼?因為目前的差距還很大,我們盡量縮小。可是已經兵臨沉下了,那個部長已經兵臨沉下了,在野黨如果按照那職權行使法的方式強行要碾壓的話,再這樣拖下去,你的統籌分配款就會沒有了,你知道嗎?你不擔心嗎?\n\n3\n00:00:58,092 --> 00:01:21,046\n希望不要是這樣為什麼因為地方的財政要考慮那如果強行點壓下去的話那我想請問一下那個主計長強行點壓下去的整個統籌分配款如果按照國民黨版本那個給地方多了五千多億的情況底下那傅昆奇總召又提到7月16號那個花東三案兩兆的這個法案又要通過那你主計長編的出來嗎\n\n4\n00:01:23,395 --> 00:01:37,654\n這如果是5777億的影響數是真的很大那對我們在中央總預算的籌編是有困難的因為我們目前初步大家114年大家報的一個大概是有3兆2000多億的一個幹算難道那個籌編有困難難道要舉債嗎\n\n5\n00:01:40,037 --> 00:01:54,382\n收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第9\n\n6\n00:02:10,842 --> 00:02:12,605\n地方制度法還有什麼法?\n\n7\n00:02:14,910 --> 00:02:18,573\n財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法\n\n8\n00:02:44,713 --> 00:03:01,569\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法�\n\n9\n00:03:04,749 --> 00:03:27,407\n公債法裡面當然最主要第一個就是有一個債限對有一個債限這也跟地方的財政有所關聯嘛對不對所以舉凡跟地方財政相關的看不當當至少有這四個法要處理嘛你是不是要拿出四個法的配套方式才有可能來健全地方的財政而不是只有從財法法存資思考來取得更多的中央預算而已對不對\n\n10\n00:03:27,907 --> 00:03:40,282\n是,委員說的是,也就是說在垂直分配這一塊除了要求把稅款要撥出這麼多,但是要考慮事權。對,所以說部長、部長、主席長,我是說你不要陷入現在齁,國眾兩黨的這一個思維\n\n11\n00:03:43,285 --> 00:03:44,646\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n\n12\n00:04:04,852 --> 00:04:05,493\n收支劃分法修正草案．\n\n13\n00:04:21,355 --> 00:04:32,027\n稅增加稅確實增加了很多。對,然後你看看這兩年的補助款來看,也高達8000多億,真正地方缺口大概是500多億,對不對?從預算估計的話大概550左右。我跟你算過,老實說,在當年1999年的時候,那時候經審之後的財法法通過的時候,\n\n14\n00:04:41,678 --> 00:04:55,014\n我們有一個比例上有凹到地方的部分就是原來我們營業稅的部分中央的部分大概是50%佔比大概50%經過之後營業稅的部分中央變佔60%\n\n15\n00:04:57,496 --> 00:05:18,626\n所以說大概我算過只要你這10%挪過去之後再多了500多億出來這地方就不至於負債了就不至於負債最起碼你修法的目標不要造成地方上的一個負擔嘛不要造成地方上的負擔這是第一個要展現出來的誠意然後你看中央地方搶錢大作戰你看喔民眾黨大概多了300多億這個銀索稅這個多這5%這根本是高雄安條款嘛\n\n16\n00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:30,084\n銀索稅條款、國民黨還有3%的首都條款、蔣安安條款。剛剛李昆城擔心說新北市,新北市裡頭人口佔比的部分以國民黨的版本有佔67%之多。\n\n17\n00:05:42,452 --> 00:05:43,793\n收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法\n\n18\n00:06:08,817 --> 00:06:28,656\n版本以人口數為做一個很重的一個指標,確實會變成人口多的地方政府分配的會更大。對啊,人口數最多的就是新北嘛,台北嘛,台中嘛,對不對?所以說整個版本是後國民黨執政嘛,清民進黨執政嘛,受到那個,受到\n\n19\n00:06:29,817 --> 00:06:56,788\n難搞嘛對不對分配商會變成這樣子嗎不是嗎那這樣子你剛剛提到說統籌分配款的部分是為了整個均衡發展嘛政策目標是這樣子嘛所以我是覺得你接下來提出來的時候一定要去以正式聽的部分是說統籌分配如果是這個目標不是這樣子處理的橫向的分配來說過往我們的統籌分配就是太偏重於都會了以前過多偏重於都會整個\n\n20\n00:06:58,500 --> 00:07:12,481\n農村地區,像我所在的台南,偏種的部分,即便上農地只能農用,都市的土地都能夠建造房子,配置上去本來就不公平啊,部長\n\n21\n00:07:13,562 --> 00:07:42,310\n你接下來的修法有沒有可能打破這個框架,達到一個均衡的發展?沒錯,中央統籌分配稅款的目的就是在於調劑營需,因為各地方政府的自然條件不同,工商條件也不同,所以這個部分就是要我們在水平分配上要能夠做到調劑營需跟區域均衡發展,這是非常重要的。我跟你講部長,我再提醒一下,我想依照那個國民黨也好,那個民眾黨也好,他們唯一正當性的理由在哪裡?\n\n22\n00:07:43,050 --> 00:07:53,907\n收支劃分法修正草案案。但是不具正當性的理由是財法法不能亂修不能只有以執政縣市的自己執政縣市的這個觀點來做分配而已對不對\n\n23\n00:07:56,372 --> 00:08:23,350\n是沒有錯嗎?要去考慮這個整個的一個平衡性整個平衡性嘛如果是這樣平衡性的思考你在思考架構這個思維的時候你要有一定的說服力地方或許有不同的意見地方會有本位思考的考量地方想要爭取比較多的自有財源這都屬正常啊當地方都屬正常的情況底下最後還是部長你的版本你要拍板定案從你的部的版本形成出來之後你才有可能送到院嘛對不對\n\n24\n00:08:24,932 --> 00:08:44,205\n所以說你還是要抓一個時間點嘛你不能用一個沒有時間表做一個理由說法嘛你很難說服目前立法院有版本提出版本的相關的黨團嘛部長了解但是我們現在就努力在做努力這個部分把共識一定要把它凝聚出來那也沒時間表\n\n25\n00:08:45,633 --> 00:09:06,901\n那就要看大家共識什麼時候可以達成了因為沒有共識的情況下縱使推出版本也沒有辦法完全修法我是覺得你要推出版本的同時就如同我剛剛所講的你要適時的把部分的地方制度法的一個條文或者地方稅法通則的條文還有包括公債法的這個條文的部分重點條文的部分你要納入可以不可以\n\n26\n00:09:08,154 --> 00:09:35,316\n但是因為地方制度法涉及到內政部的一個權責對當然啦一部分我當然知道地方制度法是內政部的權利啊但是有很多大部分的法案都是你主政的嘛你主政的範圍你先思考嘛可以不可以是當然有關那個地方稅法通則我們也可以再來做檢視對啊像他這種法修過之後有一些馬祖地區整年的預算才44億光中央補助統籌分配款將來通過之後會就超過100億欸你想一下子稅收增加double他要怎麼執行\n\n27\n00:09:36,477 --> 00:09:40,601\n財政基率很重要所以你要把這些不合理性你要一一列舉出來嘛對不對所以我現在本委員會當中部分黨派基本上都認為要修啦但是問題是怎麼修的問題啦怎麼修的根結點還是來自於這部的一個基本上的一個指標嘛好不好那最後我要問一下主計長齁主計長\n\n28\n00:10:01,218 --> 00:10:01,578\n稅務署的訓練中心\n\n29\n00:10:17,351 --> 00:10:34,268\n連這一個規劃費用的維修費用啊都拿不出錢來還要4成跟新北市要4成的跟文化部要他只能拿出2成花了3年的時間充分費用還高達1億多一個文化資產超過120年的文化資產就放在那旁邊嘿\n\n30\n00:10:36,463 --> 00:10:59,387\n組長,你上任之後能不能來解決這個問題啊?我能來協助解決。協助處理好不好?是。這國家資產、文化資產是屬於大家的啊。不能丟個部會當裝去那邊傷腦筋啊。該花的錢要花。他不可能台北市政府跟你接管啊。一波接管。你沒有修好之前他不可能一波接管嘛。部長這件事情也麻煩你放在心上好不好?莊部長。好的。是的。好,謝謝兩位。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7608\t13793\t主席有請總部長還有陳主席長請總部長還有陳主席長委員好部長好部長你剛剛提到因為過去經過5次的修法都沒有辦法修成那歷經了20幾年那看起來你要再一次的諮詢地方政府的財政單位那預計是這個會期會提還是下個會期會提\n35478\t54289\t委員報告,這個部分我就講說沒有時間表,為什麼?因為目前的差距還很大,我們盡量縮小。可是已經兵臨沉下了,那個部長已經兵臨沉下了,在野黨如果按照那職權行使法的方式強行要碾壓的話,再這樣拖下去,你的統籌分配款就會沒有了,你知道嗎?你不擔心嗎?\n58092\t81046\t希望不要是這樣為什麼因為地方的財政要考慮那如果強行點壓下去的話那我想請問一下那個主計長強行點壓下去的整個統籌分配款如果按照國民黨版本那個給地方多了五千多億的情況底下那傅昆奇總召又提到7月16號那個花東三案兩兆的這個法案又要通過那你主計長編的出來嗎\n83395\t97654\t這如果是5777億的影響數是真的很大那對我們在中央總預算的籌編是有困難的因為我們目前初步大家114年大家報的一個大概是有3兆2000多億的一個幹算難道那個籌編有困難難道要舉債嗎\n100037\t114382\t收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第9\n130842\t132605\t地方制度法還有什麼法?\n134910\t138573\t財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法\n164713\t181569\t收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法�\n184749\t207407\t公債法裡面當然最主要第一個就是有一個債限對有一個債限這也跟地方的財政有所關聯嘛對不對所以舉凡跟地方財政相關的看不當當至少有這四個法要處理嘛你是不是要拿出四個法的配套方式才有可能來健全地方的財政而不是只有從財法法存資思考來取得更多的中央預算而已對不對\n207907\t220282\t是,委員說的是,也就是說在垂直分配這一塊除了要求把稅款要撥出這麼多,但是要考慮事權。對,所以說部長、部長、主席長,我是說你不要陷入現在齁,國眾兩黨的這一個思維\n223285\t224646\t收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n244852\t245493\t收支劃分法修正草案．\n261355\t272027\t稅增加稅確實增加了很多。對,然後你看看這兩年的補助款來看,也高達8000多億,真正地方缺口大概是500多億,對不對?從預算估計的話大概550左右。我跟你算過,老實說,在當年1999年的時候,那時候經審之後的財法法通過的時候,\n281678\t295014\t我們有一個比例上有凹到地方的部分就是原來我們營業稅的部分中央的部分大概是50%佔比大概50%經過之後營業稅的部分中央變佔60%\n297496\t318626\t所以說大概我算過只要你這10%挪過去之後再多了500多億出來這地方就不至於負債了就不至於負債最起碼你修法的目標不要造成地方上的一個負擔嘛不要造成地方上的負擔這是第一個要展現出來的誠意然後你看中央地方搶錢大作戰你看喔民眾黨大概多了300多億這個銀索稅這個多這5%這根本是高雄安條款嘛\n324960\t330084\t銀索稅條款、國民黨還有3%的首都條款、蔣安安條款。剛剛李昆城擔心說新北市,新北市裡頭人口佔比的部分以國民黨的版本有佔67%之多。\n342452\t343793\t收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法\n368817\t388656\t版本以人口數為做一個很重的一個指標,確實會變成人口多的地方政府分配的會更大。對啊,人口數最多的就是新北嘛,台北嘛,台中嘛,對不對?所以說整個版本是後國民黨執政嘛,清民進黨執政嘛,受到那個,受到\n389817\t416788\t難搞嘛 對不對分配商會變成這樣子嗎不是嗎那這樣子你剛剛提到說統籌分配款的部分是為了整個均衡發展嘛政策目標是這樣子嘛所以我是覺得你接下來提出來的時候一定要去以正式聽的部分是說統籌分配如果是這個目標不是這樣子處理的橫向的分配來說過往我們的統籌分配就是太偏重於都會了以前過多偏重於都會整個\n418500\t432481\t農村地區,像我所在的台南,偏種的部分,即便上農地只能農用,都市的土地都能夠建造房子,配置上去本來就不公平啊,部長\n433562\t462310\t你接下來的修法有沒有可能打破這個框架,達到一個均衡的發展?沒錯,中央統籌分配稅款的目的就是在於調劑營需,因為各地方政府的自然條件不同,工商條件也不同,所以這個部分就是要我們在水平分配上要能夠做到調劑營需跟區域均衡發展,這是非常重要的。我跟你講部長,我再提醒一下,我想依照那個國民黨也好,那個民眾黨也好,他們唯一正當性的理由在哪裡?\n463050\t473907\t收支劃分法修正草案案。但是不具正當性的理由是財法法不能亂修不能只有以執政縣市的自己執政縣市的這個觀點來做分配而已 對不對\n476372\t503350\t是沒有錯嗎?要去考慮這個整個的一個平衡性整個平衡性嘛如果是這樣平衡性的思考你在思考架構這個思維的時候你要有一定的說服力地方或許有不同的意見地方會有本位思考的考量地方想要爭取比較多的自有財源這都屬正常啊當地方都屬正常的情況底下最後還是部長你的版本你要拍板定案從你的部的版本形成出來之後你才有可能送到院嘛 對不對\n504932\t524205\t所以說你還是要抓一個時間點嘛你不能用一個沒有時間表做一個理由說法嘛你很難說服目前立法院有版本提出版本的相關的黨團嘛部長了解但是我們現在就努力在做努力這個部分把共識一定要把它凝聚出來那也沒時間表\n525633\t546901\t那就要看大家共識什麼時候可以達成了因為沒有共識的情況下縱使推出版本也沒有辦法完全修法我是覺得你要推出版本的同時就如同我剛剛所講的你要適時的把部分的地方制度法的一個條文或者地方稅法通則的條文還有包括公債法的這個條文的部分重點條文的部分你要納入可以不可以\n548154\t575316\t但是因為地方制度法涉及到內政部的一個權責對當然啦一部分我當然知道地方制度法是內政部的權利啊但是有很多大部分的法案都是你主政的嘛你主政的範圍你先思考嘛可以不可以是當然有關那個地方稅法通則我們也可以再來做檢視對啊像他這種法修過之後有一些馬祖地區整年的預算才44億光中央補助統籌分配款將來通過之後會就超過100億欸你想一下子稅收增加double他要怎麼執行\n576477\t580601\t財政基率很重要所以你要把這些不合理性你要一一列舉出來嘛 對不對所以我現在本委員會當中部分黨派基本上都認為要修啦但是問題是怎麼修的問題啦怎麼修的根結點還是來自於這部的一個基本上的一個指標嘛好不好那最後我要問一下主計長齁主計長\n601218\t601578\t稅務署的訓練中心\n617351\t634268\t連這一個規劃費用的維修費用啊都拿不出錢來還要4成跟新北市要4成的跟文化部要他只能拿出2成花了3年的時間充分費用還高達1億多一個文化資產超過120年的文化資產就放在那旁邊嘿\n636463\t659387\t組長,你上任之後能不能來解決這個問題啊?我能來協助解決。協助處理好不好?是。這國家資產、文化資產是屬於大家的啊。不能丟個部會當裝去那邊傷腦筋啊。該花的錢要花。他不可能台北市政府跟你接管啊。一波接管。你沒有修好之前他不可能一波接管嘛。部長這件事情也麻煩你放在心上好不好?莊部長。好的。是的。好,謝謝兩位。\n","txt":"主席有請總部長還有陳主席長請總部長還有陳主席長委員好部長好部長你剛剛提到因為過去經過5次的修法都沒有辦法修成那歷經了20幾年那看起來你要再一次的諮詢地方政府的財政單位那預計是這個會期會提還是下個會期會提\n委員報告,這個部分我就講說沒有時間表,為什麼?因為目前的差距還很大,我們盡量縮小。可是已經兵臨沉下了,那個部長已經兵臨沉下了,在野黨如果按照那職權行使法的方式強行要碾壓的話,再這樣拖下去,你的統籌分配款就會沒有了,你知道嗎?你不擔心嗎?\n希望不要是這樣為什麼因為地方的財政要考慮那如果強行點壓下去的話那我想請問一下那個主計長強行點壓下去的整個統籌分配款如果按照國民黨版本那個給地方多了五千多億的情況底下那傅昆奇總召又提到7月16號那個花東三案兩兆的這個法案又要通過那你主計長編的出來嗎\n這如果是5777億的影響數是真的很大那對我們在中央總預算的籌編是有困難的因為我們目前初步大家114年大家報的一個大概是有3兆2000多億的一個幹算難道那個籌編有困難難道要舉債嗎\n收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第9\n地方制度法還有什麼法?\n財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法�\n公債法裡面當然最主要第一個就是有一個債限對有一個債限這也跟地方的財政有所關聯嘛對不對所以舉凡跟地方財政相關的看不當當至少有這四個法要處理嘛你是不是要拿出四個法的配套方式才有可能來健全地方的財政而不是只有從財法法存資思考來取得更多的中央預算而已對不對\n是,委員說的是,也就是說在垂直分配這一塊除了要求把稅款要撥出這麼多,但是要考慮事權。對,所以說部長、部長、主席長,我是說你不要陷入現在齁,國眾兩黨的這一個思維\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n收支劃分法修正草案．\n稅增加稅確實增加了很多。對,然後你看看這兩年的補助款來看,也高達8000多億,真正地方缺口大概是500多億,對不對?從預算估計的話大概550左右。我跟你算過,老實說,在當年1999年的時候,那時候經審之後的財法法通過的時候,\n我們有一個比例上有凹到地方的部分就是原來我們營業稅的部分中央的部分大概是50%佔比大概50%經過之後營業稅的部分中央變佔60%\n所以說大概我算過只要你這10%挪過去之後再多了500多億出來這地方就不至於負債了就不至於負債最起碼你修法的目標不要造成地方上的一個負擔嘛不要造成地方上的負擔這是第一個要展現出來的誠意然後你看中央地方搶錢大作戰你看喔民眾黨大概多了300多億這個銀索稅這個多這5%這根本是高雄安條款嘛\n銀索稅條款、國民黨還有3%的首都條款、蔣安安條款。剛剛李昆城擔心說新北市,新北市裡頭人口佔比的部分以國民黨的版本有佔67%之多。\n收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法\n版本以人口數為做一個很重的一個指標,確實會變成人口多的地方政府分配的會更大。對啊,人口數最多的就是新北嘛,台北嘛,台中嘛,對不對?所以說整個版本是後國民黨執政嘛,清民進黨執政嘛,受到那個,受到\n難搞嘛 對不對分配商會變成這樣子嗎不是嗎那這樣子你剛剛提到說統籌分配款的部分是為了整個均衡發展嘛政策目標是這樣子嘛所以我是覺得你接下來提出來的時候一定要去以正式聽的部分是說統籌分配如果是這個目標不是這樣子處理的橫向的分配來說過往我們的統籌分配就是太偏重於都會了以前過多偏重於都會整個\n農村地區,像我所在的台南,偏種的部分,即便上農地只能農用,都市的土地都能夠建造房子,配置上去本來就不公平啊,部長\n你接下來的修法有沒有可能打破這個框架,達到一個均衡的發展?沒錯,中央統籌分配稅款的目的就是在於調劑營需,因為各地方政府的自然條件不同,工商條件也不同,所以這個部分就是要我們在水平分配上要能夠做到調劑營需跟區域均衡發展,這是非常重要的。我跟你講部長,我再提醒一下,我想依照那個國民黨也好,那個民眾黨也好,他們唯一正當性的理由在哪裡?\n收支劃分法修正草案案。但是不具正當性的理由是財法法不能亂修不能只有以執政縣市的自己執政縣市的這個觀點來做分配而已 對不對\n是沒有錯嗎?要去考慮這個整個的一個平衡性整個平衡性嘛如果是這樣平衡性的思考你在思考架構這個思維的時候你要有一定的說服力地方或許有不同的意見地方會有本位思考的考量地方想要爭取比較多的自有財源這都屬正常啊當地方都屬正常的情況底下最後還是部長你的版本你要拍板定案從你的部的版本形成出來之後你才有可能送到院嘛 對不對\n所以說你還是要抓一個時間點嘛你不能用一個沒有時間表做一個理由說法嘛你很難說服目前立法院有版本提出版本的相關的黨團嘛部長了解但是我們現在就努力在做努力這個部分把共識一定要把它凝聚出來那也沒時間表\n那就要看大家共識什麼時候可以達成了因為沒有共識的情況下縱使推出版本也沒有辦法完全修法我是覺得你要推出版本的同時就如同我剛剛所講的你要適時的把部分的地方制度法的一個條文或者地方稅法通則的條文還有包括公債法的這個條文的部分重點條文的部分你要納入可以不可以\n但是因為地方制度法涉及到內政部的一個權責對當然啦一部分我當然知道地方制度法是內政部的權利啊但是有很多大部分的法案都是你主政的嘛你主政的範圍你先思考嘛可以不可以是當然有關那個地方稅法通則我們也可以再來做檢視對啊像他這種法修過之後有一些馬祖地區整年的預算才44億光中央補助統籌分配款將來通過之後會就超過100億欸你想一下子稅收增加double他要怎麼執行\n財政基率很重要所以你要把這些不合理性你要一一列舉出來嘛 對不對所以我現在本委員會當中部分黨派基本上都認為要修啦但是問題是怎麼修的問題啦怎麼修的根結點還是來自於這部的一個基本上的一個指標嘛好不好那最後我要問一下主計長齁主計長\n稅務署的訓練中心\n連這一個規劃費用的維修費用啊都拿不出錢來還要4成跟新北市要4成的跟文化部要他只能拿出2成花了3年的時間充分費用還高達1億多一個文化資產超過120年的文化資產就放在那旁邊嘿\n組長,你上任之後能不能來解決這個問題啊?我能來協助解決。協助處理好不好?是。這國家資產、文化資產是屬於大家的啊。不能丟個部會當裝去那邊傷腦筋啊。該花的錢要花。他不可能台北市政府跟你接管啊。一波接管。你沒有修好之前他不可能一波接管嘛。部長這件事情也麻煩你放在心上好不好?莊部長。好的。是的。好,謝謝兩位。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.608 --> 00:13.793\n主席有請總部長還有陳主席長請總部長還有陳主席長委員好部長好部長你剛剛提到因為過去經過5次的修法都沒有辦法修成那歷經了20幾年那看起來你要再一次的諮詢地方政府的財政單位那預計是這個會期會提還是下個會期會提\n\n00:35.478 --> 00:54.289\n委員報告,這個部分我就講說沒有時間表,為什麼?因為目前的差距還很大,我們盡量縮小。可是已經兵臨沉下了,那個部長已經兵臨沉下了,在野黨如果按照那職權行使法的方式強行要碾壓的話,再這樣拖下去,你的統籌分配款就會沒有了,你知道嗎?你不擔心嗎?\n\n00:58.092 --> 01:21.046\n希望不要是這樣為什麼因為地方的財政要考慮那如果強行點壓下去的話那我想請問一下那個主計長強行點壓下去的整個統籌分配款如果按照國民黨版本那個給地方多了五千多億的情況底下那傅昆奇總召又提到7月16號那個花東三案兩兆的這個法案又要通過那你主計長編的出來嗎\n\n01:23.395 --> 01:37.654\n這如果是5777億的影響數是真的很大那對我們在中央總預算的籌編是有困難的因為我們目前初步大家114年大家報的一個大概是有3兆2000多億的一個幹算難道那個籌編有困難難道要舉債嗎\n\n01:40.037 --> 01:54.382\n收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第9\n\n02:10.842 --> 02:12.605\n地方制度法還有什麼法?\n\n02:14.910 --> 02:18.573\n財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法\n\n02:44.713 --> 03:01.569\n收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法�\n\n03:04.749 --> 03:27.407\n公債法裡面當然最主要第一個就是有一個債限對有一個債限這也跟地方的財政有所關聯嘛對不對所以舉凡跟地方財政相關的看不當當至少有這四個法要處理嘛你是不是要拿出四個法的配套方式才有可能來健全地方的財政而不是只有從財法法存資思考來取得更多的中央預算而已對不對\n\n03:27.907 --> 03:40.282\n是,委員說的是,也就是說在垂直分配這一塊除了要求把稅款要撥出這麼多,但是要考慮事權。對,所以說部長、部長、主席長,我是說你不要陷入現在齁,國眾兩黨的這一個思維\n\n03:43.285 --> 03:44.646\n收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法\n\n04:04.852 --> 04:05.493\n收支劃分法修正草案．\n\n04:21.355 --> 04:32.027\n稅增加稅確實增加了很多。對,然後你看看這兩年的補助款來看,也高達8000多億,真正地方缺口大概是500多億,對不對?從預算估計的話大概550左右。我跟你算過,老實說,在當年1999年的時候,那時候經審之後的財法法通過的時候,\n\n04:41.678 --> 04:55.014\n我們有一個比例上有凹到地方的部分就是原來我們營業稅的部分中央的部分大概是50%佔比大概50%經過之後營業稅的部分中央變佔60%\n\n04:57.496 --> 05:18.626\n所以說大概我算過只要你這10%挪過去之後再多了500多億出來這地方就不至於負債了就不至於負債最起碼你修法的目標不要造成地方上的一個負擔嘛不要造成地方上的負擔這是第一個要展現出來的誠意然後你看中央地方搶錢大作戰你看喔民眾黨大概多了300多億這個銀索稅這個多這5%這根本是高雄安條款嘛\n\n05:24.960 --> 05:30.084\n銀索稅條款、國民黨還有3%的首都條款、蔣安安條款。剛剛李昆城擔心說新北市,新北市裡頭人口佔比的部分以國民黨的版本有佔67%之多。\n\n05:42.452 --> 05:43.793\n收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法\n\n06:08.817 --> 06:28.656\n版本以人口數為做一個很重的一個指標,確實會變成人口多的地方政府分配的會更大。對啊,人口數最多的就是新北嘛,台北嘛,台中嘛,對不對?所以說整個版本是後國民黨執政嘛,清民進黨執政嘛,受到那個,受到\n\n06:29.817 --> 06:56.788\n難搞嘛對不對分配商會變成這樣子嗎不是嗎那這樣子你剛剛提到說統籌分配款的部分是為了整個均衡發展嘛政策目標是這樣子嘛所以我是覺得你接下來提出來的時候一定要去以正式聽的部分是說統籌分配如果是這個目標不是這樣子處理的橫向的分配來說過往我們的統籌分配就是太偏重於都會了以前過多偏重於都會整個\n\n06:58.500 --> 07:12.481\n農村地區,像我所在的台南,偏種的部分,即便上農地只能農用,都市的土地都能夠建造房子,配置上去本來就不公平啊,部長\n\n07:13.562 --> 07:42.310\n你接下來的修法有沒有可能打破這個框架,達到一個均衡的發展?沒錯,中央統籌分配稅款的目的就是在於調劑營需,因為各地方政府的自然條件不同,工商條件也不同,所以這個部分就是要我們在水平分配上要能夠做到調劑營需跟區域均衡發展,這是非常重要的。我跟你講部長,我再提醒一下,我想依照那個國民黨也好,那個民眾黨也好,他們唯一正當性的理由在哪裡?\n\n07:43.050 --> 07:53.907\n收支劃分法修正草案案。但是不具正當性的理由是財法法不能亂修不能只有以執政縣市的自己執政縣市的這個觀點來做分配而已對不對\n\n07:56.372 --> 08:23.350\n是沒有錯嗎?要去考慮這個整個的一個平衡性整個平衡性嘛如果是這樣平衡性的思考你在思考架構這個思維的時候你要有一定的說服力地方或許有不同的意見地方會有本位思考的考量地方想要爭取比較多的自有財源這都屬正常啊當地方都屬正常的情況底下最後還是部長你的版本你要拍板定案從你的部的版本形成出來之後你才有可能送到院嘛對不對\n\n08:24.932 --> 08:44.205\n所以說你還是要抓一個時間點嘛你不能用一個沒有時間表做一個理由說法嘛你很難說服目前立法院有版本提出版本的相關的黨團嘛部長了解但是我們現在就努力在做努力這個部分把共識一定要把它凝聚出來那也沒時間表\n\n08:45.633 --> 09:06.901\n那就要看大家共識什麼時候可以達成了因為沒有共識的情況下縱使推出版本也沒有辦法完全修法我是覺得你要推出版本的同時就如同我剛剛所講的你要適時的把部分的地方制度法的一個條文或者地方稅法通則的條文還有包括公債法的這個條文的部分重點條文的部分你要納入可以不可以\n\n09:08.154 --> 09:35.316\n但是因為地方制度法涉及到內政部的一個權責對當然啦一部分我當然知道地方制度法是內政部的權利啊但是有很多大部分的法案都是你主政的嘛你主政的範圍你先思考嘛可以不可以是當然有關那個地方稅法通則我們也可以再來做檢視對啊像他這種法修過之後有一些馬祖地區整年的預算才44億光中央補助統籌分配款將來通過之後會就超過100億欸你想一下子稅收增加double他要怎麼執行\n\n09:36.477 --> 09:40.601\n財政基率很重要所以你要把這些不合理性你要一一列舉出來嘛對不對所以我現在本委員會當中部分黨派基本上都認為要修啦但是問題是怎麼修的問題啦怎麼修的根結點還是來自於這部的一個基本上的一個指標嘛好不好那最後我要問一下主計長齁主計長\n\n10:01.218 --> 10:01.578\n稅務署的訓練中心\n\n10:17.351 --> 10:34.268\n連這一個規劃費用的維修費用啊都拿不出錢來還要4成跟新北市要4成的跟文化部要他只能拿出2成花了3年的時間充分費用還高達1億多一個文化資產超過120年的文化資產就放在那旁邊嘿\n\n10:36.463 --> 10:59.387\n組長,你上任之後能不能來解決這個問題啊?我能來協助解決。協助處理好不好?是。這國家資產、文化資產是屬於大家的啊。不能丟個部會當裝去那邊傷腦筋啊。該花的錢要花。他不可能台北市政府跟你接管啊。一波接管。你沒有修好之前他不可能一波接管嘛。部長這件事情也麻煩你放在心上好不好?莊部長。好的。是的。好,謝謝兩位。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.608,"end":13.793,"text":"主席有請總部長還有陳主席長請總部長還有陳主席長委員好部長好部長你剛剛提到因為過去經過5次的修法都沒有辦法修成那歷經了20幾年那看起來你要再一次的諮詢地方政府的財政單位那預計是這個會期會提還是下個會期會提"},{"start":35.478,"end":54.289,"text":"委員報告,這個部分我就講說沒有時間表,為什麼?因為目前的差距還很大,我們盡量縮小。可是已經兵臨沉下了,那個部長已經兵臨沉下了,在野黨如果按照那職權行使法的方式強行要碾壓的話,再這樣拖下去,你的統籌分配款就會沒有了,你知道嗎?你不擔心嗎?"},{"start":58.092,"end":81.046,"text":"希望不要是這樣為什麼因為地方的財政要考慮那如果強行點壓下去的話那我想請問一下那個主計長強行點壓下去的整個統籌分配款如果按照國民黨版本那個給地方多了五千多億的情況底下那傅昆奇總召又提到7月16號那個花東三案兩兆的這個法案又要通過那你主計長編的出來嗎"},{"start":83.395,"end":97.654,"text":"這如果是5777億的影響數是真的很大那對我們在中央總預算的籌編是有困難的因為我們目前初步大家114年大家報的一個大概是有3兆2000多億的一個幹算難道那個籌編有困難難道要舉債嗎"},{"start":100.037,"end":114.382,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第9"},{"start":130.842,"end":132.605,"text":"地方制度法還有什麼法?"},{"start":134.91,"end":138.573,"text":"財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":164.713,"end":181.569,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":184.749,"end":207.407,"text":"公債法裡面當然最主要第一個就是有一個債限對有一個債限這也跟地方的財政有所關聯嘛對不對所以舉凡跟地方財政相關的看不當當至少有這四個法要處理嘛你是不是要拿出四個法的配套方式才有可能來健全地方的財政而不是只有從財法法存資思考來取得更多的中央預算而已對不對"},{"start":207.907,"end":220.282,"text":"是,委員說的是,也就是說在垂直分配這一塊除了要求把稅款要撥出這麼多,但是要考慮事權。對,所以說部長、部長、主席長,我是說你不要陷入現在齁,國眾兩黨的這一個思維"},{"start":223.285,"end":224.646,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":244.852,"end":245.493,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．"},{"start":261.355,"end":272.027,"text":"稅增加稅確實增加了很多。對,然後你看看這兩年的補助款來看,也高達8000多億,真正地方缺口大概是500多億,對不對?從預算估計的話大概550左右。我跟你算過,老實說,在當年1999年的時候,那時候經審之後的財法法通過的時候,"},{"start":281.678,"end":295.014,"text":"我們有一個比例上有凹到地方的部分就是原來我們營業稅的部分中央的部分大概是50%佔比大概50%經過之後營業稅的部分中央變佔60%"},{"start":297.496,"end":318.626,"text":"所以說大概我算過只要你這10%挪過去之後再多了500多億出來這地方就不至於負債了就不至於負債最起碼你修法的目標不要造成地方上的一個負擔嘛不要造成地方上的負擔這是第一個要展現出來的誠意然後你看中央地方搶錢大作戰你看喔民眾黨大概多了300多億這個銀索稅這個多這5%這根本是高雄安條款嘛"},{"start":324.96,"end":330.084,"text":"銀索稅條款、國民黨還有3%的首都條款、蔣安安條款。剛剛李昆城擔心說新北市,新北市裡頭人口佔比的部分以國民黨的版本有佔67%之多。"},{"start":342.452,"end":343.793,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":368.817,"end":388.656,"text":"版本以人口數為做一個很重的一個指標,確實會變成人口多的地方政府分配的會更大。對啊,人口數最多的就是新北嘛,台北嘛,台中嘛,對不對?所以說整個版本是後國民黨執政嘛,清民進黨執政嘛,受到那個,受到"},{"start":389.817,"end":416.788,"text":"難搞嘛 對不對分配商會變成這樣子嗎不是嗎那這樣子你剛剛提到說統籌分配款的部分是為了整個均衡發展嘛政策目標是這樣子嘛所以我是覺得你接下來提出來的時候一定要去以正式聽的部分是說統籌分配如果是這個目標不是這樣子處理的橫向的分配來說過往我們的統籌分配就是太偏重於都會了以前過多偏重於都會整個"},{"start":418.5,"end":432.481,"text":"農村地區,像我所在的台南,偏種的部分,即便上農地只能農用,都市的土地都能夠建造房子,配置上去本來就不公平啊,部長"},{"start":433.562,"end":462.31,"text":"你接下來的修法有沒有可能打破這個框架,達到一個均衡的發展?沒錯,中央統籌分配稅款的目的就是在於調劑營需,因為各地方政府的自然條件不同,工商條件也不同,所以這個部分就是要我們在水平分配上要能夠做到調劑營需跟區域均衡發展,這是非常重要的。我跟你講部長,我再提醒一下,我想依照那個國民黨也好,那個民眾黨也好,他們唯一正當性的理由在哪裡?"},{"start":463.05,"end":473.907,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案案。但是不具正當性的理由是財法法不能亂修不能只有以執政縣市的自己執政縣市的這個觀點來做分配而已 對不對"},{"start":476.372,"end":503.35,"text":"是沒有錯嗎?要去考慮這個整個的一個平衡性整個平衡性嘛如果是這樣平衡性的思考你在思考架構這個思維的時候你要有一定的說服力地方或許有不同的意見地方會有本位思考的考量地方想要爭取比較多的自有財源這都屬正常啊當地方都屬正常的情況底下最後還是部長你的版本你要拍板定案從你的部的版本形成出來之後你才有可能送到院嘛 對不對"},{"start":504.932,"end":524.205,"text":"所以說你還是要抓一個時間點嘛你不能用一個沒有時間表做一個理由說法嘛你很難說服目前立法院有版本提出版本的相關的黨團嘛部長了解但是我們現在就努力在做努力這個部分把共識一定要把它凝聚出來那也沒時間表"},{"start":525.633,"end":546.901,"text":"那就要看大家共識什麼時候可以達成了因為沒有共識的情況下縱使推出版本也沒有辦法完全修法我是覺得你要推出版本的同時就如同我剛剛所講的你要適時的把部分的地方制度法的一個條文或者地方稅法通則的條文還有包括公債法的這個條文的部分重點條文的部分你要納入可以不可以"},{"start":548.154,"end":575.316,"text":"但是因為地方制度法涉及到內政部的一個權責對當然啦一部分我當然知道地方制度法是內政部的權利啊但是有很多大部分的法案都是你主政的嘛你主政的範圍你先思考嘛可以不可以是當然有關那個地方稅法通則我們也可以再來做檢視對啊像他這種法修過之後有一些馬祖地區整年的預算才44億光中央補助統籌分配款將來通過之後會就超過100億欸你想一下子稅收增加double他要怎麼執行"},{"start":576.477,"end":580.601,"text":"財政基率很重要所以你要把這些不合理性你要一一列舉出來嘛 對不對所以我現在本委員會當中部分黨派基本上都認為要修啦但是問題是怎麼修的問題啦怎麼修的根結點還是來自於這部的一個基本上的一個指標嘛好不好那最後我要問一下主計長齁主計長"},{"start":601.218,"end":601.578,"text":"稅務署的訓練中心"},{"start":617.351,"end":634.268,"text":"連這一個規劃費用的維修費用啊都拿不出錢來還要4成跟新北市要4成的跟文化部要他只能拿出2成花了3年的時間充分費用還高達1億多一個文化資產超過120年的文化資產就放在那旁邊嘿"},{"start":636.463,"end":659.387,"text":"組長,你上任之後能不能來解決這個問題啊?我能來協助解決。協助處理好不好?是。這國家資產、文化資產是屬於大家的啊。不能丟個部會當裝去那邊傷腦筋啊。該花的錢要花。他不可能台北市政府跟你接管啊。一波接管。你沒有修好之前他不可能一波接管嘛。部長這件事情也麻煩你放在心上好不好?莊部長。好的。是的。好,謝謝兩位。"}]}}}}