{"id":153456,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153456","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7070ec6ef67a6379ff259c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c7aa5c94164d5158c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:54:02 - 11:01:59","影片長度":"00:07:57","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T10:54:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T11:01:59+08:00","duration":477,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時54分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳主委，還有黃部長。"],["主席：陳主委，還有黃部長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：主委、部長，早安。因為王義川先生在5月27號上政論節目的時候說，針對青鳥行動還有519民眾黨的活動有做人流的分析，他的這個發言內容引發了大家對於電信數據分析使用的一些爭議。事實上，我們看到電信大數據分析的運用是有例可循的，而且是目前科技時代在數據使用上的一部分，包括新北也好、臺北也好，有關耶誕城活動、跨年晚會，或者是有關交通部對於智慧道路交通及壅塞路段的大數據分析，或者是有關內政部對於全國電信信令人口的統計資料等等，都會運用電信數據的分析。不過我想今天大家的爭議點可能是在於這個電信資料分析的使用有沒有去侵犯到人民個人的權益，事實上，我想個人資料保護是一個重要的人權，這是不容侵犯的，所以我們也希望政府機關或者是一般的人民都一定要有這樣的觀念，而且我們政府機關也一定要堅守這樣的原則。所以我先請教一下主委，有關電信大數據分析的運用，就主管機關的立場，我們的規範如何？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，依照電管法第十七條，還有我們有一個個人資料維護辦法，我們要求電信業者，他們本來就有所謂的個人資料維護計畫，我們依照這個計畫會定期去稽核，要求它落實內控。另外，在行動寬頻的服務契約裡面，對於這個部分業者也要規劃清楚，而且要明確告知當事人。"],["陳委員素月：好，就是我們有一定的規範，在這樣一個規範下的數據資料，剛剛主委在回答其他委員質詢時有提到，這個是可以透過申請、購買的管道取得。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果已經變成數據的話，個資不可以，個資如果要變數據還要經過去識別化，而且要做不可回逆的處理才可以。"],["陳委員素月：就是一定要去識別化，那我在這邊再請教一下，就您的瞭解，針對王義川他這樣子的發言，他曾經跟相關的電信公司取得相關的資料嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就我們在5月30號的調查，三大電信業者都表示並沒有這種情況出現，所以王義川先生並沒有跟他們取得或是購買相關的資料。"],["陳委員素月：沒有跟三大電信業者取得，那有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個可能要問王義川先生才知道，因為做大數據分析的除了電信公司以外還有很多的民間，比如說資訊服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種，他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析，公關公司裡面蠻多的。"],["陳委員素月：就是民間也有業者做這種分析。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["陳委員素月：可是我們來思考一個問題，他在5月27號上節目談論，5月24號是禮拜五，25、26號短短的兩天有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎？就黃部長您瞭解的話，我們的民間業者有這個能力做相關的分析嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：所以我剛才講，資料散布在不同的系統，你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可，那會有行政的流程，我個人覺得這個時間，而且剛剛講有幾萬筆的資料要做去識別化，而且要做這些統計分析，應該沒辦法那麼快做得到。"],["陳委員素月：應該沒有辦法。"],["黃部長彥男：對，技術上可行，但時間上，包括行政流程、包括拿到許可、包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料，而且是從很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆，再比對，我覺得這個應該會有其困難度，這是我從技術面的判斷。"],["陳委員素月：就NCC陳主委跟黃部長所回復的，就管理單位來說，相關的三大業者也沒有提供；就技術層面來說，在短短的兩天之內要做出來，而且這個還要經過管理機關的同意，包括基地臺、服務的用戶號碼等等，這些取得不是那麼容易，所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門，不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入司法調查的程序，我們就留待司法單位去做進一步的偵查跟瞭解。","在這邊本席要針對有關資安的問題，不管是個人資料的保護，這個是不變的一個原則，其實國家資安也是非常的重要，我們也希望不分朝野，對於個人資料保護的重視還有資安的重視，我們應該都是要一致的。我們知道有關抖音（TikTok）或者小紅書的使用，目前我們看到美國媒體也有揭露，證實TikTok大約是每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資，這些資料包括美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計訊息，抖音的前員工也有證實他們會把用戶的個資傳回中共，所以對於個資的侵害是非常嚴重，我們也希望國內不分朝野、不分政府及人民都要共同面對跟重視這樣的一個問題。因為TikTok在我們臺灣沒有落地，它未來也不可能配合落地，在目前這樣的狀況之下，我們數發部對於TikTok相關訊息的使用，我們有沒有什麼強制手段去做一個維護？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，在我們的打詐法通過後會要求他們落地，如果不落地，我們就根據打詐法來處置，這個處置方法可以包括……反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制它，所以我們還是期待先用法律要求他們落地，若是落地不配合，我們再根據處罰辦法來處置。"],["陳委員素月：好，我想TikTok的危害真的非常大，我們也希望未來主管機關和相關機關要有更積極的一些作為，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳素月委員的發言。","我們現在處理臨時提案，本日共有2案，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","案由：","日前民進黨政策委員會執行長王義川先生，於政論節目公開宣稱可使用手機訊號交叉比對太陽花運動、青鳥行動與519民眾黨集會參與者之異同，其發言如下：","「有些是小草，有些是太陽花的，占了整個活動的六成。我們用手機去看他們的年齡，差不多六成。二十歲以下的，大概占了一成二，所以大概有七成二是七十歲以下的。」「第二個，這些人跟原來的小草，我們有去比對過，他跟原來這個五一七（口誤，應是五一九）在民進黨樓下的那些小草的訊號比起來，也不同人，就是說小草也沒跑，但是這一批人跟上次我們選舉，一月十三日選前之夜的人比對，也沒關係。」","其後在面對記者提問時，又有以下發言：","「平常大型的活動，都有這些市場調查公司在做，包括最近的這些活動，也都有人在做，那當然去對應到的是手機的門號，那門號有沒有重疊，門號有沒有這一個出現、停留多久，大概都可以通（過）這些資訊能夠得到，所以這個是業界經常用的一個方法。」","在無正當法律授權之前提下，取得未去識別化之群眾資料，用於政治偵防與群眾運動之數據分析，恐違反通訊保障及監察法、個人資料保護法等相關法規，實有違我國人權保障之意旨，更有損我國自由民主之國家形象。爰此，為釐清爭議，請國家通訊傳播委員會於一個月內清查近三屆總統副總統、直轄市長及縣市長選舉期間，國內政治活動之群眾個資，是否遭不當使用或有外洩之虞，向交通委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：魯明哲　　黃健豪　　林沛祥　　林國成　　廖先翔","二、","數位時代，政府與民間企業就因業務蒐集之民眾個人資料，進行去識別化後之合理運用，有助於企業行銷與服務價值創新，也可以作為政府城市治理與政策規劃參考。惟數據之運用須嚴格遵守保護資料之保護。我國雖通過個人資料保護法，但仍欠缺對個資運用之監管制度與明確規範，亦未規定去識別化及合理運用個資之範圍。不但造成民眾個資外洩隱憂，政府或業者運用相關資料時亦無所適從。綜上，提案要求個人資料保護委員會籌備處，會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部及相關機關，就政府機關與民間業者之個資運用規定、去識別化、合理運用範圍及監管機制等事項，建立完整制度，並每三個月以書面向立法院交通委員會提出進度報告，以利國家數位發展與個資保護。","提案人：林國成　　林沛祥　　魯明哲　　黃健豪"],["主席：請問各位委員，第一案有沒有意見？沒有喔！有嗎？沒有就通過了，請通傳會來說明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：主席、各位委員，大家好。關於臨時提案第一案，我們修正建議的部分請各位委員酌參。我們建議第一個，因為這要相關的資料，以數目字來講，範圍滿廣的，所以建議時間上可不可以給我們三個月？而且我們剛才也有請教過這些相關的電信業者，他們的資料大概是以最近一年內為主。另外，剛才提案後面有寫「國內政治活動之群眾個資」，因為個資的範圍非常非常大，本會負責監理的是屬於行動通訊業者所持有的個資，所以我們修正建議是加入「3家行動電信事業系統所持有之個資，是否遭不當使用或有外洩之虞，向交通委員會提交書面報告。」以上是修正建議。"],["主席：你這個要三個月幹什麼啊？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有……"],["主席：我告訴你喔！十五天就弄好了，我又沒有向你要什麼東西，有向你要什麼嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，報告委員……"],["主席：我有跟你說要清查以前總統副總統、直轄市長選舉的什麼東西嗎？那已經是過去的事情了，你也講查不到資料了，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對，所以……"],["主席：這裡面是講你有沒有去介入這裡面的問題，有就有，沒有就沒有，你就打死不認帳啊！你會承認嗎？你會承認嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，報告委員……"],["主席：你報告還沒寫，我就已經知道你的報告要寫什麼了，我告訴你啦！對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我們的資料只有通訊業者。"],["主席：這要三個月喔？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果委員覺得……"],["主席：我跟你講，十五天就夠了。"],["李委員昆澤：報告召委，這個資料它也是要向三大業者索取，你跟公家機關……"],["主席：三大業者會承認嗎？"],["李委員昆澤：公家機關你可以要求十五天內、一個月內要交出……"],["主席：昆澤召委，我跟你報告，三大業者會承認啦！承認的話，準備明天去坐牢，我跟你講啦！它不會承認、打死不認帳，就跟你去外面偷女人一樣的道理，你會跟老婆講嗎？不可能講，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員……"],["李委員昆澤：在行政程序上……"],["主席：打死不認帳的事情。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個資料還要整理一下，我們……"],["主席：整理什麼呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為電信業者來……"],["主席：一個月你都弄不出來，要三個月喔？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：看時間上能不能比較充裕一點來處理。"],["主席：等一下、等一下，你要幾個月？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們是建議三個月。"],["主席：等一下，哪位委員要發言？李昆澤召委先發言。"],["李委員昆澤：我講過了。"],["主席：你講過了。請魯明哲委員。"],["林委員國成：報告主席！"],["主席：好，你先講，沒關係。"],["林委員國成：他說三個月，就是折衷兩個月就好了。"],["主席：等一下，發言完畢再說。魯明哲委員先講。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝主席。其實其他的文字修正，我覺得我們都可以接受，「三屆總統副總統」改成「一年內之」，我覺得這個我們可以接受，針對個資的範圍就「3家行動電信事業」的部分，我覺得也OK。但是多久提報告，我覺得改成三個月，要不要改成在陳耀祥卸任兩個月之後提報告啊？"],["主席：卸任以後啊？"],["魯委員明哲：不是！三個月？因為目前看起來不知道……"],["主席：對啊！三個月之後，陳主委你已經走人了。"],["魯委員明哲：對，所以一個月的意思就是說……"],["主席：你又推喔？"],["魯委員明哲：我們希望在這個任期之內，因為現在6月了，一個月之內能夠提供給我們這樣的一個報告。"],["主席：7月底以前。"],["魯委員明哲：好不好？不要……"],["主席：但他7月31號提出來，8月1號走人了，還不是一樣的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我只是一個過客而已，我走之後，NCC還是在。"],["主席：什麼過客？你是主任委員，還過客？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我7月31號……"],["主席：你早一點講嘛！你早一點講，我們早一點把你幹掉。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我7月31號就屆期了，這還要留給我們委員這邊，可不可以讓我們同仁整理一下資料？"],["主席：好，蔡其昌委員發言。智強兄，你等一下。"],["蔡委員其昌：行政機關要兩個月、三個月，本席沒有什麼特別意見，但是既然要叫他們寫報告，我是覺得只有針對政治活動、選舉活動的這種個資等等，這樣不夠啦！我覺得應該要直接……就像本席剛剛質詢特別提到的，關於資料的運用，地方政府也在用、公司行號也在用，到底什麼東西可以用、什麼東西不可以用，我覺得這個報告應該要含括除了魯明哲委員所提的這些資料以外，既然給他比較多的時間，所以本席建議應該要把態樣用出來讓立法院瞭解，也讓社會瞭解現在這些資訊的販售及運用。我看到太多，包括全臺灣各地的地方政府，不論是藍執政、綠執政，大家都在運用這些大數據的資訊，我看公司行號也在運用，所以這個報告裡面應該詳細述明什麼叫做大數據可運用的範圍、什麼是不可以被運用的，我覺得這些態樣也請在這個報告裡面一併讓立法院及社會大眾瞭解，這樣對個資的保護才全面，我們談這個不是只有限於政治的活動或者是選舉，我認為這樣不是太充足。"],["主席：不過，副院長，他主要在凸顯這次侵犯人權所涉及到的政治活動，主要是這個，如果把其他的態樣、其他的資料全都放進來的話，反而無法凸顯政治活動，我們所提的主題會偏離了，他會寫一本書，但其中可能只有一、兩頁是牽涉到這裡面……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有，主席，這個我沒有意見，因為你有個人、朝野政黨、各委員有各自的立場，我都尊重，本席是要把我的意見講清楚……"],["主席：我知道。"],["蔡委員其昌：對人權的侵犯問題，我們今天很簡單，今天大家談的是什麼，大家談的是希望個資保護，不要侵犯人權，對人權的保障等，我認為這個題目就像我剛剛的質詢，我也再一次強調，我不把主席的格局做小嘛！我認為主席是一個很有格局、大格局的人……"],["主席：沒有、沒有，我小格……"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我想主席是對於整體國家人權的保障、個資的保護，應該站在這個角度，我們來做一個全面性的檢討，當然你要檢討個案，本席也不反對，我剛剛已經講過了。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝副院長。","羅智強委員。"],["羅委員智強：大家都知道，我對陳耀祥主委向來沒有什麼正面評價，今天我第一次正式的肯定你，為什麼呢？你赤裸裸的陽謀很簡單嘛！3個月後你就拍拍屁股走人嘛！那為什麼我肯定你？因為你也知道不要幫王義川背書嘛！你也不想蹚這混水，可能也跟你沒有關係。可是我要特別講，今天王義川變身為天眼局，對人民做政治偵防，這是直接侵害民主的核心，也侵害人民的權益，所以我覺得雖然陳主委可能不想要幫王義川擔，但是人民等得起這3個月嗎？人民其實想要的是一個儘快的答案，抱歉！我覺得不只是人民喔！這個提案我非常贊成，我覺得檢察機關也應該要動起來了吧！現在王義川已經在改口、在串供啦！已經在改口啦！從天眼局變成膝蓋局啊！現在已經說是用膝蓋想，我說三大電信可以廢了啦！三大電信公司你們比不過王義川的膝蓋啦！你們還要一堆程序才能夠申請到基地臺的資料，然後去比對手機訊號才能夠做識別化的訊息或去識別化的訊息。王義川不用啦！他用膝蓋就可以了啦！他用膝蓋就可以了。","這邊我也要跟民進黨呼籲一下，你們不要忘了王義川不只是王義川啊！王義川是民進黨政策會執行長，也是民進黨不分區的立委，名單上接下來排行就是他啦！下一個就是他了啦！我想請問民進黨你還要集體護航王義川嗎？所以這邊我肯定陳耀祥，為什麼今天特別講3個月？期間算的剛剛好，3個月後陳耀祥就拍拍屁股走人了，雖然你不想要幫王義川背書，但是抱歉！我覺得你還是要幫人民把關，以上。"],["主席：好，許智傑委員。"],["許委員智傑：主席，大家好。我還是呼應一下剛才蔡其昌委員提到的，我們希望什麼是可以合法去買，什麼是要去識別化，你要把這樣一個方向、大數據的狀況等整體的資料很清楚地告訴國人，就像我剛才的質詢一樣。今天不管是不是政治、是不是商業，任何人要去買大數據資料，就是有權力可以去買，這就是商業嘛！那今天人民會覺得恐慌，要如何去識別化，你把它訂在條約裡面，或者是訂在契約裡面，或者是很清楚讓人民知道你的所作所為完全就是大數據的提供，任何個人的資料如果有被洩漏就法律處理，很清楚！這個就是一個正常的行為嘛！但是要要求如何讓人民不擔心、可以合法去購買，我覺得應該是要整體考量，所以剛剛蔡其昌委員提到的，我認為三大電信要給我們一個這樣子的交代。"],["主席：好，謝謝許智傑委員。","陳素月委員發言，下面游顥委員，還有翁曉玲委員。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝主席。對於個人資料保護是基本的人權，這個都是不容侵犯的，所以我也呼應蔡其昌副院長的主張，就是我們對於資料的保護要有一致性。針對王義川的言論，目前都已經進入司法調查的程序了，所以我們也不宜再討論，我們也希望對於民主的價值，都要來共同捍衛及維護。剛剛陳主委提到他是一個過客，我想他要凸顯的就是制度是一定的，每一個人在這個位置上都是來來去去，所以我們就是一定要捍衛這樣的民主制度，我希望不分朝野都要共同有這樣的想法跟主張，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝何素月委員。","下面游顥委員。"],["游委員顥：謝謝召委。本席在這邊還是……"],["陳委員素月：等一下，我先……主席，你給我改姓啊？"],["主席：什麼？"],["陳委員素月：你給我改姓！"],["主席：陳素月委員，對不起！對不起！"],["陳委員素月：主席還沒睡醒喔？"],["主席：素月委員對不起！我沒有睡覺。","好，游顥委員。"],["游委員顥：謝謝召委。本席認為王義川的這一案，其實社會大家都在關注，搶救義川天兵這個大家也都在關注，所以剛才不管是藍綠的委員都提到個資很重要，人權不容侵犯，而NCC三個月、兩個月其實都太久了，大家都在共同矚目這個案子到底他是如何取得這些去識別化的資料，所以建議不管是中華電信或是三大電信業者能夠趕快證明清白，應該是要在兩個禮拜之內就要公布報告跟數據了，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位翁曉玲委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：在這邊跟各位委員報告，其實NCC主管的是電信管理法，所以在提案裡面只有說數據分析恐違反通訊保障監察法、個資法等等相關法規，我建議還要再加上電信管理法，也就是「恐違反電信管理法」，並且也要要求這三家電信業者，他們在這段調查的期間裡面販售給其他私人公司這些所有的資料都應該要提報，以上建議。"],["主席：這裡面就是執政黨、反對黨嘛！執政黨講的是人權、公開等等；反對黨講的就是看不見的那隻手啦！如果大數據去買賣OK啦！問題就不是搞買賣嘛！私底下提供嘛！問題出在這裡，你現在要大數據，你要中華電信、要三大業者去提供，你打死他，他也不會認帳啊！所以時間為什麼要3個月，我真搞不懂，是不是陳主委你要退休了？你把時間就如同羅智強委員講的？","好，來。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝主席。我想大家只卡在時間，我想折衷一下啦！3個月不是在會期中間，你突然提個報告，我們也沒開會，我覺得這樣實在不好，最多最多就7月16號，我們現在延會延到7月16號，正好一個半月的時間，剛好今天是2號嘛！就一個半月的時間，好不好？"],["主席：7月16日你也不會來啊！"],["魯委員明哲：我知道，但至少是在會期……"],["主席：他送來都已經5點了。"],["魯委員明哲：我是建議啦！最多最多我們是希望一個月，但是我想最多就一個半月，至少我們在會期的期間能夠拿到這個報告，剩下看主席的裁示。至於如果有其他的公司，甚至政府的大數據資料，我們看到副院長剛剛有提到的，我個人也支持，可能請另外寫一個案，我們的案子就是大概針對這次提到的3個政治運動，所以是跟政治有關的，其他的部分我們都尊重，就另外再提案，我們也會支持，好不好？那時間是不是裁示一下？"],["主席：陳主委，7月15日好啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：7月15號？"],["主席：7月15號，你不要再講了啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，就7月15號。"],["主席：再講的話，等一下就變成7月3號，現在才6月3號。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，7月15號。"],["主席：這個很快嘛！我告訴你，我當你的下面，10天就提供給你了，你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["主席：你下面是打死不認帳的啦！你放心啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，還有其他電信業者……"],["主席：你把他打死，他都不會認帳啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就7月15號。"],["主席：7月15號好不好？國成兄，這你提的案子嘛？魯明哲委員提的，7月15號好不好？"],["魯委員明哲：可以。"],["主席：7月15號啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，配合辦理。"],["主席：蔡副院長呢？針對這個問題，很單純。"],["蔡委員其昌：我沒意見。"],["主席：蔡副院長所提的可以啦！我們預為防範的話，可以弄一本出來。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告主席，蔡副院長所提的那個在第二案裡面是可以處理啦！第二案裡面有這個部分是可以處理的。"],["主席：我們很尊重蔡副院長啦，好不好？而且他在這邊講話都擲地有聲，我們也不能不尊重，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：在電信這個部分……"],["主席：這樣好不好？阿昌？可以吧？"],["蔡委員其昌：我剛剛已經講了，我後來就沒意見。"],["主席：好，謝謝。第一案……就一個半月嘛！就7月15日前，就這樣就好了，修正這幾個字，其他不動啦！下面是誰改的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，後面，因為我們提供的是行動通信業者所持有的個資，所以這要改，因為我們是三大……"],["主席：那你們念一遍嘛！我沒改啊，是誰改的？是魯委員改的嗎？魯委員它下面有改喔！拿給魯委員看一下，後面是NCC改的。","臨時提案一倒數第四行開始，爰此，為釐清爭議，請國家通訊傳播委員會於7月15日前清查最近一年內之總統副總統、直轄市長及縣市長選舉期間，國內政治活動之群眾個資，3家行動電信事業系統所持有之個資是否遭不當使用或有外洩之虞，向交通委員會提交書面報告。","修正通過，可以啦！","第二案，沒聽清楚就算啦！誰叫他不聽。第二案。"],["林委員國成：提案說明嘛？"],["主席：第二案有沒有委員有意見？"],["林委員國成：我跟各位報告一下，我不同意他們提出修改要6個月，還有什麼只有針對電信業以及手機姓名，我提案主要是建議個人資料保護籌備處要積極去做，要做的問題是除了電信之外，還包括app、LINE這些東西要如何去做保障，我要它在3個月以內做這些，但是這裡我同意，也就是粗字的部分，提案要求行政院敬邀，就是因為資料保護委員會籌備處的人員比較少，所以我們把它加在敬邀行政院與個人資料保護籌備處會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位部及有關單位，原來籌備處修改的這個，原則性我是不同意。我是同意他們人不夠，我們就請行政院，敬邀行政院來籌措，把各有關單位去做……原則性我還是保持3個。"],["主席：林國成委員，你改的版本我們看不到啊！"],["林委員國成：有啊！"],["主席：每個人都有嗎？"],["林委員國成：有，每一個人都有啊！"],["主席：你念了老半天，我一個字都找不到。"],["林委員國成：沒有經過提案人你們就去修改，這樣不尊重嘛！"],["主席：倒數第七行有沒有？倒數第七行提案要求這邊勾進去，提案要求「行政院邀集」個人資料保……是行政院來邀集啊？"],["林委員國成：對！"],["主席：行政院邀集也很奇怪耶！行政院誰？院長啊？他怎麼跟你邀集這個？"],["林委員國成：這個個人資料保護……"],["主席：不是，國成兄，你說提案要求行政院邀集，行政院那就秘書長喔？"],["林委員國成：沒有，我特別跟主席報告，原來我是要求個人資料保護籌備處他們來做。"],["主席：我知道。"],["林委員國成：如果是這樣，行政院可以拿掉。"],["主席：個人資料保護委員會籌備處是去年成立的嘛，是不是？"],["鄭副主任其昀：是。"],["主席：掛牌？那這樣你們單位要幹什麼？"],["鄭副主任其昀：主席，我可以說明一下。"],["主席：你們就要去負責溝通協調的工作啊！"],["鄭副主任其昀：跟主席報告一下，應該是不用行政院，應該是我們籌備處來就可以了，這個先說明一下，不用到行政院。"],["主席：你說什麼？"],["鄭副主任其昀：這個部分就是維持原提案，就是由我們來會同相關的機關就可以了，所以建議可以不用到行政院。"],["主席：不用行政院。"],["林委員國成：好，就把行政院拿掉，照我的原案……"],["主席：你會同各機關？各機關不是不同意嗎？"],["鄭副主任其昀：當然我們會盡力啦……"],["主席：什麼盡力？這是臨時提案的決議，我們要決議了，你還在盡力？沒有盡力的問題！"],["鄭副主任其昀：我們會依照決議會同相關機關處理，第二個部分是針對……"],["主席：等一下，通傳會有沒有問題？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：會同這個部分沒問題。"],["主席：它會同你們。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["主席：還有數位發展部，有沒有問題？"],["黃部長彥男：沒有問題。"],["主席：沒問題？那這張都沒有問題嘛，誰講有問題？","請副院長。"],["蔡委員其昌：國成兄的提案基本上沒有什麼問題，但這裡面的問題在哪裡？就是國成兄如果按照他的原提案，今天這些部會恐怕不夠，因為個資的保護等等這些問題，只要它有蒐集過你資訊的行業通通要保護嘛！所以我看行政單位的建議，把它在所謂電信跟手機的信號嘛，對不對？因為你談這些個資保護，主席，三百六十五行各行業都有個資保護，你只要申請任何一個東西都可能有個資的問題，所以你要把它……你不單要會同國家通傳會，你連會同經濟部、會同所有各部會，等於所有各部會你都要了嘛？","所以我的意思就是，如果針對電信，那就是電信業者手機的這些問題嘛？如果你要談的是個資保護，這個國家全部都要來了……"],["主席：那很多啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：可能不只是6個月，可能要1年、2年了。"],["主席：國成兄，副院長也是好意啦！因為你那牽涉太廣，你不如就寫「就政府機關與民間業者」的部分改為「優先」啦！「優先就電信業者」這樣就單純了嘛？「優先就電信業者之手機信令」，信什麼令啊？訊號啦！之手機信號，這樣就好了嘛？那六個月不要啦！三個月啦！"],["林委員國成：主席，我再度建議，個人資料保護委員會籌備處要做的是很廣大的這些個資的問題，它現在要求我去把它改為只有電信，這裡面沒有app也沒有什麼其他，所以……"],["主席：包含啦！"],["林委員國成：所以這個部分，我說實在的，就變成NCC跟數位部他們只做他們的，那其他都不要做嗎？所以我的意思就你可以優先去做什麼，但你還是要有個資保護，所以我提這個案當然會很大、很廣，但是是你個人資料保護籌備處的責任嘛！"],["主席：好、好、好。"],["林委員國成：你知道嗎？是責任嘛！所以我還是建議……"],["蔡委員其昌：主席，我來幫國成兄再修正一下啦！應該是這樣說，其中有一段就不要了，「數位發展部及相關機關，就」……"],["主席：在第幾行？"],["蔡委員其昌：就是不用講政府機關跟民間業者啦！你就直接，他要的就是那個架構嘛！就是「會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部及相關機關，就個資運用規定、去識別化、合理運用範圍及監管機制等事項」，這樣對不對，國成兄？"],["林委員國成：這樣可以啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：好，就這樣。"],["主席：可以了嗎？"],["林委員國成：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：這樣對了嘛！"],["主席：好，還是三個月，不是六個月？"],["林委員國成：三個月啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：原來的三個月可以啦！"],["主席：好，這個要表決嗎？"],["蔡委員其昌：不用啦！"],["主席：你們既然雙方都甲動了，表決一下好了嘛！通通都甲動了，來這邊不表決舉手一下，不好玩啊！好啦！就修正文字通過。","臨時提案處理完畢，如果有委員對上述提案補簽的話，列入紀錄並刊登公報。","一、","案由：","日前民進黨政策委員會執行長王義川先生，於政論節目公開宣稱可使用手機訊號交叉比對太陽花運動、青鳥行動與519民眾黨集會參與者之異同，其發言如下：","“有些是小草，有些是太陽花的，占了整個活動的六成。我們用手機去看他們的年齡，差不多六成。廿歲以下的，大概占了一成二，所以大概有七成二是七十歲以下的。」「第二個，這些人跟原來的小草，我們有去比對過，他跟原來這個五一七（口誤，應是五一九）在民進黨樓下的那些小草的訊號比起來，也不同人，就是說小草也沒跑，但是這一批人跟上次我們選舉，一月十三日選前之夜的人比對，也沒關係。”","其後在面對記者提問時，又有以下發言：","“平常大型的活動，都有這些市場調查公司在做，包括最近的這些活動，也都有人在做，那當然去對應到的是手機的門號，那門號有沒有重疊，門號有沒有這一個出現、停留多久，大概都可以通（過）這些資訊能夠得到，所以這個是業界經常用的一個方法”","在無正當法律授權之前提下，取得未去識別化之群眾資料，用於政治偵防與群眾運動之數據分析，恐違反通訊保障及監察法，個人資料保護法等相關法規，實有違我國人權保障之意旨，更有損我國自由民主之國家形象。爰此，為釐清爭議，請國家通訊傳播委員會於一個月內清查近三屆總統副總統，直轄市長及縣市長選舉期間，國內政治活動之群眾個資，是否遭不當使用或有外洩之虞，向交通委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：魯明哲　　邱若華　　黃健豪　　林沛祥　　林國成　　廖先翔","二、","數位時代，政府與民間企業就因業務蒐集之民眾個人資料，進行去識別化後之合理運用，有助於企業行銷與服務價值創新，也可以作為政府城市治理與政策規劃參考。惟數據之運用須嚴格遵守保護資料之保護。我國雖通過個人資料保護法，但仍欠缺對個資運用之監管制度與明確規範，亦未規定去識別化及合理運用個資之範圍。不但造成民眾個資外洩隱憂，政府或業者運用相關資料時亦無所適從。綜上，提案要求個人資料保護委員會籌備處，會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部及相關機關，就政府機關與民間業者之個資運用規定、去識別化、合理運用範圍及監管機制等事項，建立完整制度，並每三個月以書面向立法院交通委員會提出進度報告，以利國家數位發展與個資保護。","提案人：林國成　　林沛祥　　邱若華　　魯明哲　　黃健豪"],["主席：繼續請翁曉玲委員。素月委員對不起，剛才我明明要喊陳素月委員，怎麼弄錯了，對不起、對不起！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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\"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 459.205, \"end\": 459.485, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"罰\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 459.485, \"end\": 459.505, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 461.186, \"end\": 461.206, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,928 --> 00:00:06,270\n謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委還有黃部長主委還有部長早安就是有關於因為王一川先生在5月27號上政論節目的時候針對這個青鳥行動還有519的這個就是這個民眾黨的一個活動\n\n2\n00:00:30,900 --> 00:00:55,102\n針對他們的這個人流的一個分析所以他的這個發言的內容引發了大家對於就是電信數據分析的使用的一些爭議那事實上我們看到就是說有關電信大數據的分析的運用是有利可循的而且是目前科技時代我們應該是我們在數據使用上的一部分\n\n3\n00:00:55,802 --> 00:01:21,854\n我們看到包括就是新北也好臺北也好有關這個耶誕城的活動快年晚會或者是有關這個交通部對於這個智慧道路交通擁塞路段的一個大數據的一個分析或者是說有關這個內政部對於就是全國電信信任人口的一個統計資料等等都是就是會運用這個電信數據的一個分析\n\n4\n00:01:22,754 --> 00:01:50,591\n不過我想今天大家的一個爭議點可能就是說對於這個電信資料分析的一個使用有沒有去侵犯到個人人民的一個權益所以事實上我想對於個人資料保護這樣子的是一個重要的人權這是不容侵犯的所以我們也希望就是說政府機關或者是一般我們的人民對這樣子的觀念都一定要有這樣的觀念而且我們政府機關也一定要\n\n5\n00:01:51,091 --> 00:01:51,231\n陳素月議員\n\n6\n00:02:05,241 --> 00:02:33,244\n報告委員基本上依照我們電管法的第17條還有我們的要求我們有一個叫做那個個人資料維護辦法我們要求電信業者這個他們本來就是有所謂個人資料的維護計畫那我們依照這個計畫會定期去集合要求他們落實那個內控另外一個在這個行動寬屏的服務契約裡面對這個部分我們業者也要規範清楚而且要明確告知當事人\n\n7\n00:02:34,349 --> 00:02:34,970\n如果已經變成那個數據的話\n\n8\n00:02:59,977 --> 00:03:11,930\n對就是一定要去識別化那我在這邊再請教一下就是說針對王逸川他這樣子的發言他曾經跟我們就是相關的電信公司取得相關的資料就您的了解\n\n9\n00:03:12,512 --> 00:03:31,439\n我們在5月30日調查三大電信業者都表示並沒有有這種情況出現所以說王宇春先生並沒有跟他們去取得或是購買這些相關的資料是沒有跟我們三大電信業者取得那如果說有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎\n\n10\n00:03:32,288 --> 00:03:46,965\n這個可能要問王佑川先生才知道因為做大數據分析的基本上來說電信公司以外還有很多的民間比如說資訊服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析\n\n11\n00:03:47,626 --> 00:03:48,006\n短短的兩天25、26號我們\n\n12\n00:04:03,975 --> 00:04:20,719\n有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎?就那個黃部長您瞭解的話我們民間業者有這個能力做這些相關的一個分析嗎?所以我剛才講就是說資料散佈在不同系統那你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可那會有行政的流程\n\n13\n00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:47,357\n那我個人啦我個人覺得這個時間而且剛剛講幾萬筆資料要去做去識別化而且要再做這些統計分析應該沒辦法那麼快做得到應該沒有辦法對技術上可行但時間上包括行政流程包括要拿到許可包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料的而且是從這個很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆再比對我覺得這個應該會有它的困難度\n\n14\n00:04:51,159 --> 00:05:09,813\n這是我的從技術面判斷就我們NCC陳素月跟法務部長這邊所回覆的就是說就我們管理單位那個相關的這個三大業者也沒有提供那我們就技術層面來說在短短的幾天之內兩天之內要做這樣子而且這個還要經過\n\n15\n00:05:11,534 --> 00:05:33,054\n關於機關的同意包括基地台服務的用戶號碼等等這些取得不是那麼容易所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入了司法調查的程序我們就留待司法單位去做進一步的偵查跟了解\n\n16\n00:05:33,755 --> 00:05:48,741\n那在這邊本席要針對就是說事實上有關這個資安的問題不管是個人資料的一個保護這個是不變的一個原則然後即使國家資安也是非常的一個重要那我們也希望就是說我們\n\n17\n00:05:49,421 --> 00:05:49,741\n﹚陳素月\n\n18\n00:06:08,291 --> 00:06:21,432\n大約每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資包括這些資料包括美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計訊息\n\n19\n00:06:23,935 --> 00:06:44,709\n然後抖音的前員工也有證實就是說這些他們會把用戶的個資傳回這個中共所以這個對於我們的這個個資的一個侵害是非常的一個嚴重所以我們也希望我們我們國內不分朝野不分政府人民都要去共同面對跟重視這樣子的一個問題\n\n20\n00:06:46,050 --> 00:07:09,887\n那這個對TikTok因為在我們台灣沒有落地那未來不曉得就是說在這樣子的一個狀況下它如果未來也不可能配合落地那目前這樣子的狀況之下我們書畫部對於TikTok的就是說相關的就是訊息的一個使用我們有沒有什麼強制的手段去做一個維護\n\n21\n00:07:12,027 --> 00:07:39,505\n報告委員就是當然就是說我們這個我們的打就是說我們這樣打造法通過之後會要求他們落地那如果不落地我們就根據打造法來來處置那但這個處置方法可以包括就是包括可能就是反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制他這樣子所以我想這個我們還是期待先用法律先要求他們落地那再從落地不配合我們再來處置這樣根據處罰辦法\n\n22\n00:07:41,186 --> 00:07:41,206\n謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1928\t6270\t謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委還有黃部長主委還有部長早安就是有關於因為王一川先生在5月27號上政論節目的時候針對這個青鳥行動還有519的這個就是這個民眾黨的一個活動\n30900\t55102\t針對他們的這個人流的一個分析所以他的這個發言的內容引發了大家對於就是電信數據分析的使用的一些爭議那事實上我們看到就是說有關電信大數據的分析的運用是有利可循的而且是目前科技時代我們應該是我們在數據使用上的一部分\n55802\t81854\t我們看到包括就是新北也好臺北也好有關這個耶誕城的活動快年晚會或者是有關這個交通部對於這個智慧道路交通擁塞路段的一個大數據的一個分析或者是說有關這個內政部對於就是全國電信信任人口的一個統計資料等等都是就是會運用這個電信數據的一個分析\n82754\t110591\t不過我想今天大家的一個爭議點可能就是說對於這個電信資料分析的一個使用有沒有去侵犯到個人人民的一個權益所以事實上我想對於個人資料保護這樣子的是一個重要的人權這是不容侵犯的所以我們也希望就是說政府機關或者是一般我們的人民對這樣子的觀念都一定要有這樣的觀念而且我們政府機關也一定要\n111091\t111231\t陳素月議員\n125241\t153244\t報告委員基本上依照我們電管法的第17條還有我們的要求我們有一個叫做那個個人資料維護辦法我們要求電信業者這個他們本來就是有所謂個人資料的維護計畫那我們依照這個計畫會定期去集合要求他們落實那個內控另外一個在這個行動寬屏的服務契約裡面對這個部分我們業者也要規範清楚而且要明確告知當事人\n154349\t154970\t如果已經變成那個數據的話\n179977\t191930\t對就是一定要去識別化那我在這邊再請教一下就是說針對王逸川他這樣子的發言他曾經跟我們就是相關的電信公司取得相關的資料就您的了解\n192512\t211439\t我們在5月30日調查三大電信業者都表示並沒有有這種情況出現所以說王宇春先生並沒有跟他們去取得或是購買這些相關的資料是沒有跟我們三大電信業者取得那如果說有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎\n212288\t226965\t這個可能要問王佑川先生才知道因為做大數據分析的基本上來說電信公司以外還有很多的民間比如說資訊服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析\n227626\t228006\t短短的兩天25、26號我們\n243975\t260719\t有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎?就那個黃部長您瞭解的話我們民間業者有這個能力做這些相關的一個分析嗎?所以我剛才講就是說資料散佈在不同系統那你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可那會有行政的流程\n261400\t287357\t那我個人啦我個人覺得這個時間而且剛剛講幾萬筆資料要去做去識別化而且要再做這些統計分析應該沒辦法那麼快做得到應該沒有辦法對技術上可行但時間上包括行政流程包括要拿到許可包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料的而且是從這個很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆再比對我覺得這個應該會有它的困難度\n291159\t309813\t這是我的從技術面判斷就我們NCC陳素月跟法務部長這邊所回覆的就是說就我們管理單位那個相關的這個三大業者也沒有提供那我們就技術層面來說在短短的幾天之內兩天之內要做這樣子而且這個還要經過\n311534\t333054\t關於機關的同意包括基地台服務的用戶號碼等等這些取得不是那麼容易所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入了司法調查的程序我們就留待司法單位去做進一步的偵查跟了解\n333755\t348741\t那在這邊本席要針對就是說事實上有關這個資安的問題不管是個人資料的一個保護這個是不變的一個原則然後即使國家資安也是非常的一個重要那我們也希望就是說我們\n349421\t349741\t﹚陳素月\n368291\t381432\t大約每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資包括這些資料包括美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計訊息\n383935\t404709\t然後抖音的前員工也有證實就是說這些他們會把用戶的個資傳回這個中共所以這個對於我們的這個個資的一個侵害是非常的一個嚴重所以我們也希望我們我們國內不分朝野不分政府人民都要去共同面對跟重視這樣子的一個問題\n406050\t429887\t那這個對TikTok因為在我們台灣沒有落地那未來不曉得就是說在這樣子的一個狀況下它如果未來也不可能配合落地那目前這樣子的狀況之下我們書畫部對於TikTok的就是說相關的就是訊息的一個使用我們有沒有什麼強制的手段去做一個維護\n432027\t459505\t報告委員就是當然就是說我們這個我們的打就是說我們這樣打造法通過之後會要求他們落地那如果不落地我們就根據打造法來來處置那但這個處置方法可以包括就是包括可能就是反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制他這樣子所以我想這個我們還是期待先用法律先要求他們落地那再從落地不配合我們再來處置這樣根據處罰辦法\n461186\t461206\t謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委還有黃部長主委還有部長早安就是有關於因為王一川先生在5月27號上政論節目的時候針對這個青鳥行動還有519的這個就是這個民眾黨的一個活動\n針對他們的這個人流的一個分析所以他的這個發言的內容引發了大家對於就是電信數據分析的使用的一些爭議那事實上我們看到就是說有關電信大數據的分析的運用是有利可循的而且是目前科技時代我們應該是我們在數據使用上的一部分\n我們看到包括就是新北也好臺北也好有關這個耶誕城的活動快年晚會或者是有關這個交通部對於這個智慧道路交通擁塞路段的一個大數據的一個分析或者是說有關這個內政部對於就是全國電信信任人口的一個統計資料等等都是就是會運用這個電信數據的一個分析\n不過我想今天大家的一個爭議點可能就是說對於這個電信資料分析的一個使用有沒有去侵犯到個人人民的一個權益所以事實上我想對於個人資料保護這樣子的是一個重要的人權這是不容侵犯的所以我們也希望就是說政府機關或者是一般我們的人民對這樣子的觀念都一定要有這樣的觀念而且我們政府機關也一定要\n陳素月議員\n報告委員基本上依照我們電管法的第17條還有我們的要求我們有一個叫做那個個人資料維護辦法我們要求電信業者這個他們本來就是有所謂個人資料的維護計畫那我們依照這個計畫會定期去集合要求他們落實那個內控另外一個在這個行動寬屏的服務契約裡面對這個部分我們業者也要規範清楚而且要明確告知當事人\n如果已經變成那個數據的話\n對就是一定要去識別化那我在這邊再請教一下就是說針對王逸川他這樣子的發言他曾經跟我們就是相關的電信公司取得相關的資料就您的了解\n我們在5月30日調查三大電信業者都表示並沒有有這種情況出現所以說王宇春先生並沒有跟他們去取得或是購買這些相關的資料是沒有跟我們三大電信業者取得那如果說有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎\n這個可能要問王佑川先生才知道因為做大數據分析的基本上來說電信公司以外還有很多的民間比如說資訊服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析\n短短的兩天25、26號我們\n有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎?就那個黃部長您瞭解的話我們民間業者有這個能力做這些相關的一個分析嗎?所以我剛才講就是說資料散佈在不同系統那你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可那會有行政的流程\n那我個人啦我個人覺得這個時間而且剛剛講幾萬筆資料要去做去識別化而且要再做這些統計分析應該沒辦法那麼快做得到應該沒有辦法對技術上可行但時間上包括行政流程包括要拿到許可包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料的而且是從這個很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆再比對我覺得這個應該會有它的困難度\n這是我的從技術面判斷就我們NCC陳素月跟法務部長這邊所回覆的就是說就我們管理單位那個相關的這個三大業者也沒有提供那我們就技術層面來說在短短的幾天之內兩天之內要做這樣子而且這個還要經過\n關於機關的同意包括基地台服務的用戶號碼等等這些取得不是那麼容易所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入了司法調查的程序我們就留待司法單位去做進一步的偵查跟了解\n那在這邊本席要針對就是說事實上有關這個資安的問題不管是個人資料的一個保護這個是不變的一個原則然後即使國家資安也是非常的一個重要那我們也希望就是說我們\n﹚陳素月\n大約每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資包括這些資料包括美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計訊息\n然後抖音的前員工也有證實就是說這些他們會把用戶的個資傳回這個中共所以這個對於我們的這個個資的一個侵害是非常的一個嚴重所以我們也希望我們我們國內不分朝野不分政府人民都要去共同面對跟重視這樣子的一個問題\n那這個對TikTok因為在我們台灣沒有落地那未來不曉得就是說在這樣子的一個狀況下它如果未來也不可能配合落地那目前這樣子的狀況之下我們書畫部對於TikTok的就是說相關的就是訊息的一個使用我們有沒有什麼強制的手段去做一個維護\n報告委員就是當然就是說我們這個我們的打就是說我們這樣打造法通過之後會要求他們落地那如果不落地我們就根據打造法來來處置那但這個處置方法可以包括就是包括可能就是反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制他這樣子所以我想這個我們還是期待先用法律先要求他們落地那再從落地不配合我們再來處置這樣根據處罰辦法\n謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.928 --> 00:06.270\n謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委還有黃部長主委還有部長早安就是有關於因為王一川先生在5月27號上政論節目的時候針對這個青鳥行動還有519的這個就是這個民眾黨的一個活動\n\n00:30.900 --> 00:55.102\n針對他們的這個人流的一個分析所以他的這個發言的內容引發了大家對於就是電信數據分析的使用的一些爭議那事實上我們看到就是說有關電信大數據的分析的運用是有利可循的而且是目前科技時代我們應該是我們在數據使用上的一部分\n\n00:55.802 --> 01:21.854\n我們看到包括就是新北也好臺北也好有關這個耶誕城的活動快年晚會或者是有關這個交通部對於這個智慧道路交通擁塞路段的一個大數據的一個分析或者是說有關這個內政部對於就是全國電信信任人口的一個統計資料等等都是就是會運用這個電信數據的一個分析\n\n01:22.754 --> 01:50.591\n不過我想今天大家的一個爭議點可能就是說對於這個電信資料分析的一個使用有沒有去侵犯到個人人民的一個權益所以事實上我想對於個人資料保護這樣子的是一個重要的人權這是不容侵犯的所以我們也希望就是說政府機關或者是一般我們的人民對這樣子的觀念都一定要有這樣的觀念而且我們政府機關也一定要\n\n01:51.091 --> 01:51.231\n陳素月議員\n\n02:05.241 --> 02:33.244\n報告委員基本上依照我們電管法的第17條還有我們的要求我們有一個叫做那個個人資料維護辦法我們要求電信業者這個他們本來就是有所謂個人資料的維護計畫那我們依照這個計畫會定期去集合要求他們落實那個內控另外一個在這個行動寬屏的服務契約裡面對這個部分我們業者也要規範清楚而且要明確告知當事人\n\n02:34.349 --> 02:34.970\n如果已經變成那個數據的話\n\n02:59.977 --> 03:11.930\n對就是一定要去識別化那我在這邊再請教一下就是說針對王逸川他這樣子的發言他曾經跟我們就是相關的電信公司取得相關的資料就您的了解\n\n03:12.512 --> 03:31.439\n我們在5月30日調查三大電信業者都表示並沒有有這種情況出現所以說王宇春先生並沒有跟他們去取得或是購買這些相關的資料是沒有跟我們三大電信業者取得那如果說有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎\n\n03:32.288 --> 03:46.965\n這個可能要問王佑川先生才知道因為做大數據分析的基本上來說電信公司以外還有很多的民間比如說資訊服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析\n\n03:47.626 --> 03:48.006\n短短的兩天25、26號我們\n\n04:03.975 --> 04:20.719\n有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎?就那個黃部長您瞭解的話我們民間業者有這個能力做這些相關的一個分析嗎?所以我剛才講就是說資料散佈在不同系統那你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可那會有行政的流程\n\n04:21.400 --> 04:47.357\n那我個人啦我個人覺得這個時間而且剛剛講幾萬筆資料要去做去識別化而且要再做這些統計分析應該沒辦法那麼快做得到應該沒有辦法對技術上可行但時間上包括行政流程包括要拿到許可包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料的而且是從這個很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆再比對我覺得這個應該會有它的困難度\n\n04:51.159 --> 05:09.813\n這是我的從技術面判斷就我們NCC陳素月跟法務部長這邊所回覆的就是說就我們管理單位那個相關的這個三大業者也沒有提供那我們就技術層面來說在短短的幾天之內兩天之內要做這樣子而且這個還要經過\n\n05:11.534 --> 05:33.054\n關於機關的同意包括基地台服務的用戶號碼等等這些取得不是那麼容易所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入了司法調查的程序我們就留待司法單位去做進一步的偵查跟了解\n\n05:33.755 --> 05:48.741\n那在這邊本席要針對就是說事實上有關這個資安的問題不管是個人資料的一個保護這個是不變的一個原則然後即使國家資安也是非常的一個重要那我們也希望就是說我們\n\n05:49.421 --> 05:49.741\n﹚陳素月\n\n06:08.291 --> 06:21.432\n大約每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資包括這些資料包括美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計訊息\n\n06:23.935 --> 06:44.709\n然後抖音的前員工也有證實就是說這些他們會把用戶的個資傳回這個中共所以這個對於我們的這個個資的一個侵害是非常的一個嚴重所以我們也希望我們我們國內不分朝野不分政府人民都要去共同面對跟重視這樣子的一個問題\n\n06:46.050 --> 07:09.887\n那這個對TikTok因為在我們台灣沒有落地那未來不曉得就是說在這樣子的一個狀況下它如果未來也不可能配合落地那目前這樣子的狀況之下我們書畫部對於TikTok的就是說相關的就是訊息的一個使用我們有沒有什麼強制的手段去做一個維護\n\n07:12.027 --> 07:39.505\n報告委員就是當然就是說我們這個我們的打就是說我們這樣打造法通過之後會要求他們落地那如果不落地我們就根據打造法來來處置那但這個處置方法可以包括就是包括可能就是反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制他這樣子所以我想這個我們還是期待先用法律先要求他們落地那再從落地不配合我們再來處置這樣根據處罰辦法\n\n07:41.186 --> 07:41.206\n謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.928,"end":6.27,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委還有黃部長主委還有部長早安就是有關於因為王一川先生在5月27號上政論節目的時候針對這個青鳥行動還有519的這個就是這個民眾黨的一個活動"},{"start":30.9,"end":55.102,"text":"針對他們的這個人流的一個分析所以他的這個發言的內容引發了大家對於就是電信數據分析的使用的一些爭議那事實上我們看到就是說有關電信大數據的分析的運用是有利可循的而且是目前科技時代我們應該是我們在數據使用上的一部分"},{"start":55.802,"end":81.854,"text":"我們看到包括就是新北也好臺北也好有關這個耶誕城的活動快年晚會或者是有關這個交通部對於這個智慧道路交通擁塞路段的一個大數據的一個分析或者是說有關這個內政部對於就是全國電信信任人口的一個統計資料等等都是就是會運用這個電信數據的一個分析"},{"start":82.754,"end":110.591,"text":"不過我想今天大家的一個爭議點可能就是說對於這個電信資料分析的一個使用有沒有去侵犯到個人人民的一個權益所以事實上我想對於個人資料保護這樣子的是一個重要的人權這是不容侵犯的所以我們也希望就是說政府機關或者是一般我們的人民對這樣子的觀念都一定要有這樣的觀念而且我們政府機關也一定要"},{"start":111.091,"end":111.231,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":125.241,"end":153.244,"text":"報告委員基本上依照我們電管法的第17條還有我們的要求我們有一個叫做那個個人資料維護辦法我們要求電信業者這個他們本來就是有所謂個人資料的維護計畫那我們依照這個計畫會定期去集合要求他們落實那個內控另外一個在這個行動寬屏的服務契約裡面對這個部分我們業者也要規範清楚而且要明確告知當事人"},{"start":154.349,"end":154.97,"text":"如果已經變成那個數據的話"},{"start":179.977,"end":191.93,"text":"對就是一定要去識別化那我在這邊再請教一下就是說針對王逸川他這樣子的發言他曾經跟我們就是相關的電信公司取得相關的資料就您的了解"},{"start":192.512,"end":211.439,"text":"我們在5月30日調查三大電信業者都表示並沒有有這種情況出現所以說王宇春先生並沒有跟他們去取得或是購買這些相關的資料是沒有跟我們三大電信業者取得那如果說有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎"},{"start":212.288,"end":226.965,"text":"這個可能要問王佑川先生才知道因為做大數據分析的基本上來說電信公司以外還有很多的民間比如說資訊服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析"},{"start":227.626,"end":228.006,"text":"短短的兩天25、26號我們"},{"start":243.975,"end":260.719,"text":"有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎?就那個黃部長您瞭解的話我們民間業者有這個能力做這些相關的一個分析嗎?所以我剛才講就是說資料散佈在不同系統那你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可那會有行政的流程"},{"start":261.4,"end":287.357,"text":"那我個人啦我個人覺得這個時間而且剛剛講幾萬筆資料要去做去識別化而且要再做這些統計分析應該沒辦法那麼快做得到應該沒有辦法對技術上可行但時間上包括行政流程包括要拿到許可包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料的而且是從這個很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆再比對我覺得這個應該會有它的困難度"},{"start":291.159,"end":309.813,"text":"這是我的從技術面判斷就我們NCC陳素月跟法務部長這邊所回覆的就是說就我們管理單位那個相關的這個三大業者也沒有提供那我們就技術層面來說在短短的幾天之內兩天之內要做這樣子而且這個還要經過"},{"start":311.534,"end":333.054,"text":"關於機關的同意包括基地台服務的用戶號碼等等這些取得不是那麼容易所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入了司法調查的程序我們就留待司法單位去做進一步的偵查跟了解"},{"start":333.755,"end":348.741,"text":"那在這邊本席要針對就是說事實上有關這個資安的問題不管是個人資料的一個保護這個是不變的一個原則然後即使國家資安也是非常的一個重要那我們也希望就是說我們"},{"start":349.421,"end":349.741,"text":"﹚陳素月"},{"start":368.291,"end":381.432,"text":"大約每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資包括這些資料包括美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計訊息"},{"start":383.935,"end":404.709,"text":"然後抖音的前員工也有證實就是說這些他們會把用戶的個資傳回這個中共所以這個對於我們的這個個資的一個侵害是非常的一個嚴重所以我們也希望我們我們國內不分朝野不分政府人民都要去共同面對跟重視這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":406.05,"end":429.887,"text":"那這個對TikTok因為在我們台灣沒有落地那未來不曉得就是說在這樣子的一個狀況下它如果未來也不可能配合落地那目前這樣子的狀況之下我們書畫部對於TikTok的就是說相關的就是訊息的一個使用我們有沒有什麼強制的手段去做一個維護"},{"start":432.027,"end":459.505,"text":"報告委員就是當然就是說我們這個我們的打就是說我們這樣打造法通過之後會要求他們落地那如果不落地我們就根據打造法來來處置那但這個處置方法可以包括就是包括可能就是反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制他這樣子所以我想這個我們還是期待先用法律先要求他們落地那再從落地不配合我們再來處置這樣根據處罰辦法"},{"start":461.186,"end":461.206,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}}}}