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12:28:10","影片長度":"00:06:03","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T12:22:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T12:28:10+08:00","duration":363,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1235,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時22分）謝謝主席。主席，請中華電信郭董事長。"],["主席：中華電信郭董事長。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：郭董事長好。董事長，我在數發部的書面報告結語看到，就技術層面，的確可以用手機訊號分析用戶的個人資料，同時取得電信業者基地臺服務之用戶號碼，及帳務、客戶資料庫等資料進行交叉比對。這邊要請教郭董事長，中華電信是官股背景，近年也投入大數據的分析，過去有協助建置防疫監控平臺，請說明清楚，當面對中央政府或是政黨有需求的時候，能不能抗拒，拒絕提供資料作為政治目的使用？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們有關防疫的平臺是在疾管局以及NCC依照相關法令規範的遵守下，委託中華電信建置跟維護防疫平臺，基本上這些都是合乎法令相關規定辦理的，至於您剛才所提的人潮分析這個部分，我們是……"],["邱委員若華：我沒有提到人潮分析。直接回答能不能抗拒提供資料作為政治目的使用？"],["郭董事長水義：我們不會提供政治目的使用的相關服務。"],["邱委員若華：王義川先生在節目上面提到手機定位還有分析，這個資料從何而來？有沒有涉及不法？"],["郭董事長水義：我毫無所悉，這資料不是我們提供的。"],["邱委員若華：董事長也一直說絕對不會外流，不是外流，而外流是被動式的，還是這是主動式的提供？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有主動提供，也沒有被動的提供。"],["邱委員若華：也沒有被動的提供？據瞭解，手機IP判定足跡重複就代表未去識別化，NCC是在講外行話，因為國人的質疑是王義川先生用這個資料，我們都在想這資料到底是從何而來？依照電信業者的看法，極有可能是基於國安維安用途，還有陳抗情資蒐集，可見這份資料遭到不法使用，也可能會引發國安問題。董事長，你怎麼看？"],["郭董事長水義：中華電信所提供的人潮分析，都是依照個人資料保護法、電信管理法相關規定，在合法前提下所提供的商業性分析應用，目的是促進地方經濟、觀光需求，還有交通紓解等等這些有利於地方政府治理的相關數據應用分析。"],["邱委員若華：電信管理法第十七條第二項第七款規定，中華電信應該要負保密的義務，並採取適當安全措施。"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["邱委員若華：這一次有盡到保密的義務嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：我們完全遵照法令規定來辦理個人資料保護，還有相關措施。"],["邱委員若華：那可不可以解釋為什麼對應到的手機號碼、號碼有沒有重疊這些都可以……"],["郭董事長水義：跟委員報告，中華電信人潮分析相關的應用平臺沒有違反任何相關法令，我們沒有在這上面設定任何功能。"],["邱委員若華：先請陳主委，主席，謝謝。"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有設定這樣一個交叉比對的功能。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：主委好。5月30日有請三大行動業者進行瞭解，行動業者都表示不曾參與進行青鳥行動群眾相關資訊的瞭解。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["邱委員若華：請問NCC判定業者有沒有提供資料的依據為何？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：第一個，我們做成正式的行政調查，第二個，我們請它有相關的資料，事後補充，然後才去做判斷。"],["邱委員若華：因為三大通信業者都說沒有提供，對於王義川先生在節目上的透露，主委，你怎麼看？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：坦白說，我也很好奇他的資料是怎麼來的，我也是看電視才知道，怎麼會有出現這種狀況。所以當時一發生的時候，我們馬上要求業者到會接受調查、去處理。"],["邱委員若華：因為王義川先生現在是說用膝蓋想的，也未免太侮辱國人的智慧了。這樣子的話，個資保護是否不足發生爭議？這一次因為自爆，監控群眾事件才公開，NCC處理個資保護的問題能不能公開透明？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們的個資保護本來就有公開透明，而且我們是依照法定程序去處理。剛剛也跟委員報告，包括電信管理法第十七條還有個資法相關規定，我們要求業者必須訂定個資保護維護計畫，而且這個有經過國際認證，並且我們是定期稽查，他們也必須落實內控機制，比如說，萬一他們個資如果外洩的話，我們就予以裁罰。我們的電信業者的確也曾經出現個資外洩，後來被我們裁罰。"],["邱委員若華：請數發部黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。數發部成立後，行政院資通安全處有將它的業務移撥至數發部。部長，您上任之後有沒有確認接手的電子圍籬作業系統有銷毀？"],["黃部長彥男：我們目前沒有看到這個系統，完全沒有！"],["邱委員若華：完全沒有看到這個系統？"],["黃部長彥男：應該是已經銷毀了，我們完全沒有看到。"],["邱委員若華：應該已經銷毀？"],["黃部長彥男：就是我上任以後沒有人跟我做這個報告。"],["邱委員若華：可以再提供相關書面報告嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：可以，我們再提供，再確認一下，可以，沒問題。"],["邱委員若華：OK！我特別要提到，因為當初使用這個系統的時候就有人權的疑慮，疫情後這套系統的控管程序如果不是因為這件事的爆發，我想很多民眾都已經忘了，請數發部再提供相關資訊。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝我們邱若華委員的質詢。","現在請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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00:01:26,163\n至於您剛才所提的人潮分析這個部分我們是我沒有提到人潮分析那直接回答能不能抗拒提供資料作為政治目的使用我們不會提供政治目的使用的這個相關的服務\n\n6\n00:01:27,079 --> 00:01:48,391\n那王一川先生在節目上面提到手機定位還有分析那這資料從何而來有沒有涉及不法我毫無所惜這資料不是我們提供的不是提供那董事長也一直說到絕對不會外流不是外流外流是被動式的還是這是主動式的提供我們沒有主動提供也沒有被動的提供\n\n7\n00:01:49,011 --> 00:02:14,907\n也沒有被動的提供那據了解手機IP來判定足跡重複就代表未去識別化那NCC是在講外行話因為國人的質疑是王逸川先生用這個資料我們都在想這資料到底是從何而來那依照電信業者的看法只有可能是基於國安危安用途還有陳抗情資收集那可見這份資料遭到不法使用那也可能會引發國安問題董事長您怎麼看\n\n8\n00:02:17,096 --> 00:02:41,992\n我中華電信所提供的人潮分析都是依照個人資料保護法電信管理法相關規定在合法前提下所提供的商業性的分析應用目的是促進地方經濟還有觀光需求還有交通疏解等等這些有利於地方政府\n\n9\n00:02:44,834 --> 00:02:55,520\n是在電信管理法第17條第2項第7款規定中華電信應該要負保密的義務並採取適當安全措施那這一次有盡到保密的義務嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:03,274 --> 00:03:24,142\n那可不可以解釋為什麼對應到的手機號碼、號碼有沒有重疊這些都可以?剛委員報告中華電信的人潮分析相關的應用平台沒有違反任何相關法令我們沒有在這上面設定任何功能我們沒有設定這樣的一個交叉比對的功能\n\n11\n00:03:28,378 --> 00:03:51,494\n主委好,那這邊5月30有請到三大的行動業者到進行了解嘛那行動業者都表示不曾參與輕量行動的群眾進行相關的資訊了解那請問NCC判定業者有沒有提供資料的依據為何那當然是要第一個要他們我們這個是做成正式的行政調查第二個我們請他有相關的資料來事後補充啊這個才是做判斷\n\n12\n00:03:52,831 --> 00:04:19,722\n因為三大通訊業者都說沒有提供那對於王一船先生在節目上有透露主意您怎麼看這個坦白說我很好奇他的資料是怎麼來的這個我也是看電視才知道說怎麼會有出現這種狀況所以我們當時一發生的時候馬上要求業者到會去來接受調查去處理是因為王一船先生現在是說用膝蓋想的也太也未免太太汙辱國人的智慧了\n\n13\n00:04:20,410 --> 00:04:42,348\n那這樣子的話那個資保護是否不足發生爭議那這一次因為自爆監控群眾事件才公開那NCC處理個資保護的問題能不能公開透明我們個資保護本來就公開透明而且我們是依照法定程序去處理就剛剛跟委員報告包括我們電信管理法第17條還有我們個資法的相關規定我們要求業者來講的話必須訂定這個個資保護的那個維護計畫而且這個有經過國際\n\n14\n00:04:48,353 --> 00:04:48,914\n那我這邊先請那個我們的訴發部黃部長\n\n15\n00:05:14,599 --> 00:05:38,769\n蘇發部成立後,行政院資通安全處有將他的業務移撥至蘇發部。部長,您上任之後有沒有確認接手的電子圍籬作業系統有銷毀?我們目前沒有看到這個系統,完全沒有。完全沒有看到這個系統?應該是已經銷毀,你們完全沒有看到。應該已經銷毀。就是說我上任以後沒有人跟我做這個報告。那可以再提供相關的書面報告嗎?可以,我們再提供那個,再確認一下,可以,沒問題。\n\n16\n00:05:39,189 --> 00:05:39,289\n邱若華\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3612\t8123\t謝謝主席 主席請中華電信郭董事長好 中華電信郭董事長\n15598\t15618\t委員會長\n35071\t49708\t中華電信是關股背景那近年也投入大數據的分析過去有協助建置防疫監控平台請說明清楚當面對中央政府或是政黨有需求的時候能不能抗拒拒絕提供資料作為政治目的使用\n51636\t71643\t報告委員,我們有關防疫的平台是在疾管局以及NCC依照相關法令規範的遵守下委託中華電信來建置跟維護的防疫平台那基本上這些都是合乎法令相關規定來辦理\n73203\t86163\t至於您剛才所提的人潮分析這個部分我們是我沒有提到人潮分析那直接回答能不能抗拒提供資料作為政治目的使用我們不會提供政治目的使用的這個相關的服務\n87079\t108391\t那王一川先生在節目上面提到手機定位還有分析那這資料從何而來有沒有涉及不法我毫無所惜這資料不是我們提供的不是提供那董事長也一直說到絕對不會外流不是外流外流是被動式的還是這是主動式的提供我們沒有主動提供也沒有被動的提供\n109011\t134907\t也沒有被動的提供那據了解手機IP來判定足跡重複就代表未去識別化那NCC是在講外行話因為國人的質疑是王逸川先生用這個資料我們都在想這資料到底是從何而來那依照電信業者的看法只有可能是基於國安危安用途還有陳抗情資收集那可見這份資料遭到不法使用那也可能會引發國安問題董事長您怎麼看\n137096\t161992\t我中華電信所提供的人潮分析都是依照個人資料保護法電信管理法相關規定在合法前提下所提供的商業性的分析應用目的是促進地方經濟還有觀光需求還有交通疏解等等這些有利於地方政府\n164834\t175520\t是在電信管理法第17條第2項第7款規定中華電信應該要負保密的義務並採取適當安全措施那這一次有盡到保密的義務嗎?\n183274\t204142\t那可不可以解釋為什麼對應到的手機號碼、號碼有沒有重疊這些都可以?剛委員報告中華電信的人潮分析相關的應用平台沒有違反任何相關法令我們沒有在這上面設定任何功能我們沒有設定這樣的一個交叉比對的功能\n208378\t231494\t主委好,那這邊5月30有請到三大的行動業者到進行了解嘛那行動業者都表示不曾參與輕量行動的群眾進行相關的資訊了解那請問NCC判定業者有沒有提供資料的依據為何那當然是要第一個要他們我們這個是做成正式的行政調查第二個我們請他有相關的資料來事後補充啊這個才是做判斷\n232831\t259722\t因為三大通訊業者都說沒有提供那對於王一船先生在節目上有透露主意您怎麼看這個坦白說我很好奇他的資料是怎麼來的這個我也是看電視才知道說怎麼會有出現這種狀況所以我們當時一發生的時候馬上要求業者到會去來接受調查去處理是因為王一船先生現在是說用膝蓋想的也太也未免太太汙辱國人的智慧了\n260410\t282348\t那這樣子的話那個資保護是否不足發生爭議那這一次因為自爆監控群眾事件才公開那NCC處理個資保護的問題能不能公開透明我們個資保護本來就公開透明而且我們是依照法定程序去處理就剛剛跟委員報告包括我們電信管理法第17條還有我們個資法的相關規定我們要求業者來講的話必須訂定這個個資保護的那個維護計畫而且這個有經過國際\n288353\t288914\t那我這邊先請那個我們的訴發部黃部長\n314599\t338769\t蘇發部成立後,行政院資通安全處有將他的業務移撥至蘇發部。部長,您上任之後有沒有確認接手的電子圍籬作業系統有銷毀?我們目前沒有看到這個系統,完全沒有。完全沒有看到這個系統?應該是已經銷毀,你們完全沒有看到。應該已經銷毀。就是說我上任以後沒有人跟我做這個報告。那可以再提供相關的書面報告嗎?可以,我們再提供那個,再確認一下,可以,沒問題。\n339189\t339289\t邱若華\n","txt":"謝謝主席 主席請中華電信郭董事長好 中華電信郭董事長\n委員會長\n中華電信是關股背景那近年也投入大數據的分析過去有協助建置防疫監控平台請說明清楚當面對中央政府或是政黨有需求的時候能不能抗拒拒絕提供資料作為政治目的使用\n報告委員,我們有關防疫的平台是在疾管局以及NCC依照相關法令規範的遵守下委託中華電信來建置跟維護的防疫平台那基本上這些都是合乎法令相關規定來辦理\n至於您剛才所提的人潮分析這個部分我們是我沒有提到人潮分析那直接回答能不能抗拒提供資料作為政治目的使用我們不會提供政治目的使用的這個相關的服務\n那王一川先生在節目上面提到手機定位還有分析那這資料從何而來有沒有涉及不法我毫無所惜這資料不是我們提供的不是提供那董事長也一直說到絕對不會外流不是外流外流是被動式的還是這是主動式的提供我們沒有主動提供也沒有被動的提供\n也沒有被動的提供那據了解手機IP來判定足跡重複就代表未去識別化那NCC是在講外行話因為國人的質疑是王逸川先生用這個資料我們都在想這資料到底是從何而來那依照電信業者的看法只有可能是基於國安危安用途還有陳抗情資收集那可見這份資料遭到不法使用那也可能會引發國安問題董事長您怎麼看\n我中華電信所提供的人潮分析都是依照個人資料保護法電信管理法相關規定在合法前提下所提供的商業性的分析應用目的是促進地方經濟還有觀光需求還有交通疏解等等這些有利於地方政府\n是在電信管理法第17條第2項第7款規定中華電信應該要負保密的義務並採取適當安全措施那這一次有盡到保密的義務嗎?\n那可不可以解釋為什麼對應到的手機號碼、號碼有沒有重疊這些都可以?剛委員報告中華電信的人潮分析相關的應用平台沒有違反任何相關法令我們沒有在這上面設定任何功能我們沒有設定這樣的一個交叉比對的功能\n主委好,那這邊5月30有請到三大的行動業者到進行了解嘛那行動業者都表示不曾參與輕量行動的群眾進行相關的資訊了解那請問NCC判定業者有沒有提供資料的依據為何那當然是要第一個要他們我們這個是做成正式的行政調查第二個我們請他有相關的資料來事後補充啊這個才是做判斷\n因為三大通訊業者都說沒有提供那對於王一船先生在節目上有透露主意您怎麼看這個坦白說我很好奇他的資料是怎麼來的這個我也是看電視才知道說怎麼會有出現這種狀況所以我們當時一發生的時候馬上要求業者到會去來接受調查去處理是因為王一船先生現在是說用膝蓋想的也太也未免太太汙辱國人的智慧了\n那這樣子的話那個資保護是否不足發生爭議那這一次因為自爆監控群眾事件才公開那NCC處理個資保護的問題能不能公開透明我們個資保護本來就公開透明而且我們是依照法定程序去處理就剛剛跟委員報告包括我們電信管理法第17條還有我們個資法的相關規定我們要求業者來講的話必須訂定這個個資保護的那個維護計畫而且這個有經過國際\n那我這邊先請那個我們的訴發部黃部長\n蘇發部成立後,行政院資通安全處有將他的業務移撥至蘇發部。部長,您上任之後有沒有確認接手的電子圍籬作業系統有銷毀?我們目前沒有看到這個系統,完全沒有。完全沒有看到這個系統?應該是已經銷毀,你們完全沒有看到。應該已經銷毀。就是說我上任以後沒有人跟我做這個報告。那可以再提供相關的書面報告嗎?可以,我們再提供那個,再確認一下,可以,沒問題。\n邱若華\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.612 --> 00:08.123\n謝謝主席主席請中華電信郭董事長好中華電信郭董事長\n\n00:15.598 --> 00:15.618\n委員會長\n\n00:35.071 --> 00:49.708\n中華電信是關股背景那近年也投入大數據的分析過去有協助建置防疫監控平台請說明清楚當面對中央政府或是政黨有需求的時候能不能抗拒拒絕提供資料作為政治目的使用\n\n00:51.636 --> 01:11.643\n報告委員,我們有關防疫的平台是在疾管局以及NCC依照相關法令規範的遵守下委託中華電信來建置跟維護的防疫平台那基本上這些都是合乎法令相關規定來辦理\n\n01:13.203 --> 01:26.163\n至於您剛才所提的人潮分析這個部分我們是我沒有提到人潮分析那直接回答能不能抗拒提供資料作為政治目的使用我們不會提供政治目的使用的這個相關的服務\n\n01:27.079 --> 01:48.391\n那王一川先生在節目上面提到手機定位還有分析那這資料從何而來有沒有涉及不法我毫無所惜這資料不是我們提供的不是提供那董事長也一直說到絕對不會外流不是外流外流是被動式的還是這是主動式的提供我們沒有主動提供也沒有被動的提供\n\n01:49.011 --> 02:14.907\n也沒有被動的提供那據了解手機IP來判定足跡重複就代表未去識別化那NCC是在講外行話因為國人的質疑是王逸川先生用這個資料我們都在想這資料到底是從何而來那依照電信業者的看法只有可能是基於國安危安用途還有陳抗情資收集那可見這份資料遭到不法使用那也可能會引發國安問題董事長您怎麼看\n\n02:17.096 --> 02:41.992\n我中華電信所提供的人潮分析都是依照個人資料保護法電信管理法相關規定在合法前提下所提供的商業性的分析應用目的是促進地方經濟還有觀光需求還有交通疏解等等這些有利於地方政府\n\n02:44.834 --> 02:55.520\n是在電信管理法第17條第2項第7款規定中華電信應該要負保密的義務並採取適當安全措施那這一次有盡到保密的義務嗎?\n\n03:03.274 --> 03:24.142\n那可不可以解釋為什麼對應到的手機號碼、號碼有沒有重疊這些都可以?剛委員報告中華電信的人潮分析相關的應用平台沒有違反任何相關法令我們沒有在這上面設定任何功能我們沒有設定這樣的一個交叉比對的功能\n\n03:28.378 --> 03:51.494\n主委好,那這邊5月30有請到三大的行動業者到進行了解嘛那行動業者都表示不曾參與輕量行動的群眾進行相關的資訊了解那請問NCC判定業者有沒有提供資料的依據為何那當然是要第一個要他們我們這個是做成正式的行政調查第二個我們請他有相關的資料來事後補充啊這個才是做判斷\n\n03:52.831 --> 04:19.722\n因為三大通訊業者都說沒有提供那對於王一船先生在節目上有透露主意您怎麼看這個坦白說我很好奇他的資料是怎麼來的這個我也是看電視才知道說怎麼會有出現這種狀況所以我們當時一發生的時候馬上要求業者到會去來接受調查去處理是因為王一船先生現在是說用膝蓋想的也太也未免太太汙辱國人的智慧了\n\n04:20.410 --> 04:42.348\n那這樣子的話那個資保護是否不足發生爭議那這一次因為自爆監控群眾事件才公開那NCC處理個資保護的問題能不能公開透明我們個資保護本來就公開透明而且我們是依照法定程序去處理就剛剛跟委員報告包括我們電信管理法第17條還有我們個資法的相關規定我們要求業者來講的話必須訂定這個個資保護的那個維護計畫而且這個有經過國際\n\n04:48.353 --> 04:48.914\n那我這邊先請那個我們的訴發部黃部長\n\n05:14.599 --> 05:38.769\n蘇發部成立後,行政院資通安全處有將他的業務移撥至蘇發部。部長,您上任之後有沒有確認接手的電子圍籬作業系統有銷毀?我們目前沒有看到這個系統,完全沒有。完全沒有看到這個系統?應該是已經銷毀,你們完全沒有看到。應該已經銷毀。就是說我上任以後沒有人跟我做這個報告。那可以再提供相關的書面報告嗎?可以,我們再提供那個,再確認一下,可以,沒問題。\n\n05:39.189 --> 05:39.289\n邱若華\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.612,"end":8.123,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請中華電信郭董事長好 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