{"id":153467,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153467","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c70717707dc9c0dc0f7c59c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be209fd7804f724e0895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:38:46 - 12:48:05","影片長度":"00:09:19","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T12:38:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T12:48:05+08:00","duration":559,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1332,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時38分）好，主席謝謝，麻煩請陳耀祥主委跟中華電信郭董事長。"],["主席：請陳耀祥主委、中華電信郭董事長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委、郭董事長，其實到現在那麼多的委員關心以及人民炸鍋，最主要就是兩個部分，第一，這件事情透過現在執政黨民進黨的政策會執行長，在節目上講出來，我覺得這是非常令人毛骨悚然，我們來看一下他當時怎麼講？他說資料分析有些人是小草、有些是太陽花，太陽花是什麼時候？10年前，換言之，他所掌握資料是現在跟10年前的資料對比啊！再來說，用手機看他的年齡，他有辦法用手機看到年齡；還有，這些人跟原來的小草比對過，517民進黨樓下跟小草的訊號比起來是不同人，這一批人跟上一次選舉，1月13號的選前之夜對比也沒關係，所以他掌握的小草有517，有1月13號選前之夜的對比。主持人問，他說對基地台的訊號就可以知道，王義川先生想要講的是，透過手機訊號能分析。好，我知道，到目前為止，主委也講5月30號馬上找三大電信公司來，也都說沒有外流，中華電信郭董事長更是從一開始到現在都說個人資料都有保護。我們想知道到底這一些電信公司的資料，除了在電信公司的手上以外，還有哪一些公司有可能取得？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：第一個，如果是個人資料的話是電信公司，就是三大電信業者。如果是已經被去識別化以後的數據……"],["洪委員孟楷：看起來沒有去識別化。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是有去識別化的數據，除了電信業者以外，做大數據分析的公司，包括資訊公司、市場調查都有可能有這些數據。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是目前看起來是他一開始講的原文嘛！我們首重他一開始所講的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們是後面……"],["洪委員孟楷：他所講的是沒有去識別化。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們也很好奇他這個說法，資料到底是怎麼取得。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，到目前為止，NCC的資料第3頁就有講，三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業、政府機關、特定黨政人士跟公司洽購相關的資料，公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊。公司沒有主動提供，也沒有被動提供，到底他的資料從哪裡來？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有可能從哪裡來？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個可能要問王義川先生才能瞭解。這個案子為什麼檢調單位在調查？因為很多資料如果要詳細調查，可能要犯罪偵察才有辦法處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，郭董事長，你們沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：中華電信提供的人潮分析、數據應用分析的資料都經過去識別化，合乎法令規定辦理。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們現在如果跟一般的民調公司……現在有跟幾家民調公司合作，可以提供去識別化的資料？"],["郭董事長水義：外部很多公司反而是我們的競爭業者，我們也會針對個案，像剛才所講的商業振興、觀光或者是交通紓解等等目的，協助部分縣市政府提供相關的資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個沒有問題，你要聽懂本席的問題，我在NCC的報告第5頁裡面看到，一開始我們質疑執政黨的政策會執行長的時候，執政黨說沒有，外面的公司都有賣，你看有臺中市政府辦的活動，新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料。本席現在想要問的是，他們的個人資料完全不同，更重要的是，你們現在都信誓旦旦說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天青鳥行動的資料。"],["郭董事長水義：對，我們確實沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止，根據NCC的調查，都沒有主動或被動提供青鳥行動的資料，對不對？那他怎麼能夠跟其他各縣市的資料比對是相同的？"],["郭董事長水義：我們不清楚他的資料，但剛才有報告中華電信遵守個人資料保護法、電信管理法的相關規範，所以個人資料絕對沒有外流，一定是留在公司。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛……"],["郭董事長水義：經過數據分析的輪廓分析……"],["洪委員孟楷：NCC主委，你第5頁的簡報是不是說三大電信業者有配合內政部，有配合新北市政府、觀光局，有配合金門縣政府辦相關活動……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是大數據分析。"],["洪委員孟楷：是數據，對不對？但是到目前為止，我剛剛有請教你，如果三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動的資料給任何人，他怎麼有辦法在27號的節目上講得這樣鉅細靡遺？換言之，到目前為止，就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講，到底有沒有任何青鳥行動的數據給任何民間公司分析？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有提……我再次強調，我有請同仁查5月17號到24號之間，我們大數據的人潮分析平臺，沒有異常的存取跟使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席的問題在哪裡，你知道嗎？是不是自始至終這個王先生在節目上都是唬爛？現在NCC給我們的簡報第3頁提到，現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供青鳥行動的資訊，對不對？你又看到第5頁說，如果真的有提供資訊，有這樣的數據分析，一定要有政府或是相關機關申請，才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他們有一些契約，有一些商業使用……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在講的是，如果到目前為止，三大電信業者說在這次的青鳥行動，沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話，27號他有辦法在節目裡面講得鉅細靡遺嗎？它已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題，是不是自始之終他根本都是在唬爛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個恐怕你要請教王義川先生。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是我請教王義川先生，NCC是主管機關，他是在節目裡面講的，三立新聞臺是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，已經有好幾個人檢舉，所以我們現在針對是否違反事實調查去處理了。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，如果真的自始至終在唬爛的話，衛廣法可以開罰多少錢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那個是事實查證的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，事實查證的問題，到目前為止你說他自始至終可能都是不實的，我不知道他怎麼天馬行空，但是他講得好像煞有其事，但實際上它是新聞臺，要事實查證。如果這個新聞臺播出這種完全沒有事實根據的內容，他還可以講太陽花、小草、517、民進黨樓下交叉分析、基地臺分析，難怪人家說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果違反事實查證的話，最高可以裁處20萬到200萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：最高可以從20萬罰到200萬。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：20萬……"],["洪委員孟楷：最低20萬。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，到200萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以調查出來？我剛剛聽到委員有講，好像是3個月到6個月。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：3個月到6個月，我們剛才講……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會太久？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們一般收到案件的程序都是這樣處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，什麼時候會請三立新聞臺說明？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們這個禮拜會發函先請他們陳述意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個禮拜會先請三立新聞臺陳述意見。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候他們必須回復？"],["林處長慧玲：原則上他們要提倫委員會，以我們的慣例14天內他們要提倫委會。"],["洪委員孟楷：提什麼會？"],["林處長慧玲：提他們的倫理委員會。"],["洪委員孟楷：倫委會，OK，所以14天內他們要提他們的倫委會。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在看起來……"],["林處長慧玲：原則上我們之前是14到21天，因為這個案子大家都很關切……"],["洪委員孟楷：社會矚目。"],["林處長慧玲：我們會請他儘量趕快提。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席對任何人都沒有意見，但是如果是執政黨的高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情，當然大家心裡會毛骨悚然，這也是為什麼今天召委安排國家機器做相關事情的報告，因為我們很怕國家機器介入太深。我還是姑且相信大家今天的講法，但是如果真的是這樣的話，代表這中間一定有環節有差錯，到底是誰的問題？NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們已經……謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：再請NCC將報告提供給洪孟楷委員。謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言。","下一位請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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\"士\", \"start\": 155.868, \"end\": 156.348, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 156.348, \"end\": 156.628, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 156.628, \"end\": 156.948, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 156.948, \"end\": 157.169, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 157.169, \"end\": 157.449, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 157.449, \"end\": 157.729, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 157.729, \"end\": 158.89, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"洽\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 158.89, \"end\": 159.31, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 159.31, \"end\": 159.59, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 159.59, \"end\": 160.43, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 160.43, \"end\": 160.751, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 160.751, \"end\": 160.951, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"也\", 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00:00:45,749\n主委、國董事長其實到現在那麼多的委員關心以及人民炸鍋最主要就是兩個部分第一這件事情透過一個民進黨的現在執政黨的政策會執行長在節目上講出來我覺得這是非常令人這個毛骨悚然我們來看一下他當時怎麼講他說資料分析有些人是小草有些是太陽花太陽花什麼時候\n\n3\n00:00:47,070 --> 00:01:05,865\n10年前換言之他掌握的資料是現在跟10年前的資料對比再來說用手機看他的年齡他有辦法用手機看到年齡還有這些人跟原來的小草比對過517民進黨樓下跟小草訊號比起來是不同人\n\n4\n00:01:07,134 --> 00:01:30,335\n這一批人跟上一次選舉1月13號選前之夜對比也沒關係所以他掌握的是有這個小草有517有1月13號的選前之夜的對比然後主持人問說你去對這個記憶體來訊號啊你就可以知道啊所以王逸川王先生講的是透過手機訊號能分析啊\n\n5\n00:01:31,260 --> 00:01:53,599\n好我知道到目前為止不管是主委也講說5月30號馬上找三大電信公司來講也都說沒有沒有外流中華電信國董事長更是從一開始到現在都講說個人資料都有保護嘛那我們想知道到底這一些電信公司的資料除了在中華電信手上以外除了在電信公司手上以外還有哪一些公司有可能取得\n\n6\n00:01:55,727 --> 00:02:16,276\n委員這個可能第一個如果是個人資料來講的話就是電信公司就是三家三大電信業者那如果是已經被去識別化以後的這個數據看起來他是沒有去識別化如果有去識別化數據的話說電信業者來講的話最大數據分析的公司包括所謂的資訊公司市場調查都有可能有這些數據但是目前看起來他一開始講的原文對\n\n7\n00:02:17,737 --> 00:02:41,951\n手中都是他一開始最一開始所講的嘛他所講的是沒有去識別化我們也很好奇說他這個說法來講他資料到底是怎麼去取得好那到目前為止今天NCC的資料在第三頁的時候就講是說三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業政府機關特定黨政人士跟政府跟公司來洽購相關的資料公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊\n\n8\n00:02:43,584 --> 00:03:00,002\n所以公司沒有主動提供然後也沒有被動提供那到底他的資料從哪裡來還有可能從哪裡來這個可能要問王一川先生才了解所以說這個案子為什麼說那個檢調單位在調查就是這樣因為很多的資料你如果想去調查來講的話那可能要犯罪生產才有辦法去處理\n\n9\n00:03:01,683 --> 00:03:28,128\n國董事長,你們這樣子的一個沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎?中華電信提供的人潮分析等這個數據應用分析的資料都是經過去識別化合乎法令規定來辦理的那你們現在跟,如果說跟一般的這個民調公司,現在有跟幾家民調公司合作是可以提供去識別化的資料?外部的很多的公司反而是我們的競爭業者\n\n10\n00:03:30,987 --> 00:03:51,517\n我們會針對這個個案然後針對例如剛才所講的商業的這個振興觀光或者是這個交通疏解等等這些目的然後協助部分的縣市政府來提供這些相關的資料這個沒有問題你要聽懂本席的問題\n\n11\n00:03:52,958 --> 00:04:17,399\n我在NCC的第5頁的報告裡面有看到嘛就是說這個也是一開始我們質疑這一個執政黨的政策會執政黨的時候執政黨的說法執政黨說沒有啊這個外面公司都有賣啊你看有什麼台中市政府辦的活動有新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料啊那本席現在想要問的是他各資料就是完全不同啊那還有\n\n12\n00:04:18,280 --> 00:04:46,150\n更重要的是你們現在信誓旦旦都講是說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天親鳥行動的資料嘛對我們確實沒有對確實沒有好本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止NCC的調查都沒有提供親鳥行動的資料主動或被動提供嘛對不對那他又怎麼能夠來跟這個其他的這個各縣市的這樣的資料來去做比對是相同\n\n13\n00:04:47,677 --> 00:05:02,737\n報告委員我們不清楚他的資料但我們剛才報告就是中華電信遵守個人資料保護法電信管理法的相關規範所以個人資料絕對沒有外流一定是留在公司通過數據分析的輪廓分析\n\n14\n00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:27,614\nNCC主委你第5月的簡報是不是講是說三大電信業者有配合內政部有配合新北市政府觀光局有配合金門縣政府有辦相關活動那是數據是數據嘛對不對但到目前為止我剛剛請教的是說你三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動給任何人那這樣子他怎麼有辦法說在節目上27號講的這樣鉅細靡靡\n\n15\n00:05:30,898 --> 00:05:39,170\n換言之到目前為止就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講的話是青鳥行動到底有沒有任何數據去給任何民間的公司去做分析?\n\n16\n00:05:41,926 --> 00:06:04,438\n報告委員,我們沒有提這個再次強調這個我們在我有下去請同仁查5月17日到24日之間我們的大數據的這個人潮分析平台沒有異常的存取跟使用本席的問題在哪裡你知道就是說是不是自始至終這個王先生他節目上就都是唬爛啊因為\n\n17\n00:06:07,728 --> 00:06:35,084\n你現在NCC給我們的數據第三頁的簡報是現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供輕鳥行動的資訊對不對那你又看到第五頁是說如果說真的有提供資訊要有這樣子的一個數據分析一定要有政府或是相關機關來去申請你才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析嗎他們有一些契約啦有一些上來使用也要有契約是不是對\n\n18\n00:06:36,044 --> 00:06:52,713\n那我現在講的是說如果說到目前為止三大電信業者講的是說在這次清了行動沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話那27號他有辦法在節目裡面講的那居信迷你他已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題了是不是自始至終他根本都是在唬爛\n\n19\n00:06:55,015 --> 00:07:16,651\n這恐怕你要請教王逸川先生這不是我請教王逸川先生的NCC是主管機關他是在節目裡面講的三立新聞台是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目所以委員已經有好幾個檢舉說我們現在以是否有違反事實調查去處理是來主委你在咳嗽啊來主委我請教如果說真的自始至終在唬爛的話這個衛廣法可以開罰多少錢\n\n20\n00:07:20,905 --> 00:07:37,382\n那個是事實查證的問題是事實查證的問題因為到目前你講就是說他事實中可能都是在都是不實的嘛我不知道他怎麼天馬行空但他講的好像是煞有其事但實際上他是新聞台那事實查證如果說這個新聞台他播出這種完全沒有事實根據的\n\n21\n00:07:38,143 --> 00:07:54,575\n他還可以講的太陽花、小草、五一七、民進黨樓下、交叉分析、基地台分析難怪人家講說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮如果違反事實查證的話從20萬到200萬是可以採取的\n\n22\n00:07:57,057 --> 00:08:25,100\n最高可以從20萬罰到200萬最低20萬什麼時候可以調查出來因為我剛剛聽到委員有講好像是3個月到6個月3個月到6個月我們一般的程序沒有我們一般所有案件程序都是這樣處理好那什麼時候會請三立新聞台來說明我們這個禮拜會請發行一切先請他們意見陳述這個禮拜會先請三立新聞台意見陳述什麼時候他們必須要回覆原則上因為他要提輪委會所以以我們的慣例就是14天內他要提輪委會\n\n23\n00:08:26,223 --> 00:08:33,430\n提什麼會?提他們的倫理委員會。倫理委員會。所以14天內他們要提他們的倫理委員會。所以現在看起來\n\n24\n00:08:35,299 --> 00:09:00,745\n我們之前是14到21啦那因為這個案子都很關切社會矚目盡量趕快提對其實本席對於任何人都沒有意見但本席對於如果說今天是執政黨的一個高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情當然大家會心裡會毛骨悚然這也是為什麼今天召委會排說國家機器來做相關的事情因為我們很怕說國家機器介入太深\n\n25\n00:09:02,230 --> 00:09:11,818\n我估計還是相信大家今天的講法但如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是說這中間一定有環節有差錯那到底是誰的問題我想NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2875\t9465\t主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳耀祥主委跟中華電信國董事長請陳耀祥主委、中華電信國董事長\n18690\t45749\t主委、國董事長其實到現在那麼多的委員關心以及人民炸鍋最主要就是兩個部分第一這件事情透過一個民進黨的現在執政黨的政策會執行長在節目上講出來我覺得這是非常令人這個毛骨悚然我們來看一下他當時怎麼講他說資料分析有些人是小草有些是太陽花太陽花什麼時候\n47070\t65865\t10年前換言之他掌握的資料是現在跟10年前的資料對比再來說用手機看他的年齡他有辦法用手機看到年齡還有這些人跟原來的小草比對過517民進黨樓下跟小草訊號比起來是不同人\n67134\t90335\t這一批人跟上一次選舉1月13號選前之夜對比也沒關係所以他掌握的是有這個小草有517有1月13號的選前之夜的對比然後主持人問說你去對這個記憶體來訊號啊你就可以知道啊所以王逸川王先生講的是透過手機訊號能分析啊\n91260\t113599\t好我知道到目前為止不管是主委也講說5月30號馬上找三大電信公司來講也都說沒有沒有外流中華電信國董事長更是從一開始到現在都講說個人資料都有保護嘛那我們想知道到底這一些電信公司的資料除了在中華電信手上以外除了在電信公司手上以外還有哪一些公司有可能取得\n115727\t136276\t委員這個可能第一個如果是個人資料來講的話就是電信公司就是三家三大電信業者那如果是已經被去識別化以後的這個數據看起來他是沒有去識別化如果有去識別化數據的話說電信業者來講的話最大數據分析的公司包括所謂的資訊公司市場調查都有可能有這些數據但是目前看起來他一開始講的原文對\n137737\t161951\t手中都是他一開始最一開始所講的嘛他所講的是沒有去識別化我們也很好奇說他這個說法來講他資料到底是怎麼去取得好那到目前為止今天NCC的資料在第三頁的時候就講是說三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業政府機關特定黨政人士跟政府跟公司來洽購相關的資料公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊\n163584\t180002\t所以公司沒有主動提供然後也沒有被動提供那到底他的資料從哪裡來還有可能從哪裡來這個可能要問王一川先生才了解所以說這個案子為什麼說那個檢調單位在調查就是這樣因為很多的資料你如果想去調查來講的話那可能要犯罪生產才有辦法去處理\n181683\t208128\t國董事長,你們這樣子的一個沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎?中華電信提供的人潮分析等這個數據應用分析的資料都是經過去識別化合乎法令規定來辦理的那你們現在跟,如果說跟一般的這個民調公司,現在有跟幾家民調公司合作是可以提供去識別化的資料?外部的很多的公司反而是我們的競爭業者\n210987\t231517\t我們會針對這個個案然後針對例如剛才所講的商業的這個振興觀光或者是這個交通疏解等等這些目的然後協助部分的縣市政府來提供這些相關的資料這個沒有問題你要聽懂本席的問題\n232958\t257399\t我在NCC的第5頁的報告裡面有看到嘛就是說這個也是一開始我們質疑這一個執政黨的政策會執政黨的時候執政黨的說法執政黨說沒有啊這個外面公司都有賣啊你看有什麼台中市政府辦的活動有新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料啊那本席現在想要問的是他各資料就是完全不同啊那還有\n258280\t286150\t更重要的是你們現在信誓旦旦都講是說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天親鳥行動的資料嘛對我們確實沒有對確實沒有好本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止NCC的調查都沒有提供親鳥行動的資料主動或被動提供嘛對不對那他又怎麼能夠來跟這個其他的這個各縣市的這樣的資料來去做比對是相同\n287677\t302737\t報告委員我們不清楚他的資料但我們剛才報告就是中華電信遵守個人資料保護法電信管理法的相關規範所以個人資料絕對沒有外流一定是留在公司通過數據分析的輪廓分析\n305200\t327614\tNCC主委你第5月的簡報是不是講是說三大電信業者有配合內政部有配合新北市政府觀光局有配合金門縣政府有辦相關活動那是數據是數據嘛對不對但到目前為止我剛剛請教的是說你三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動給任何人那這樣子他怎麼有辦法說在節目上27號講的這樣鉅細靡靡\n330898\t339170\t換言之到目前為止就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講的話是青鳥行動到底有沒有任何數據去給任何民間的公司去做分析?\n341926\t364438\t報告委員,我們沒有提這個再次強調這個我們在我有下去請同仁查5月17日到24日之間我們的大數據的這個人潮分析平台沒有異常的存取跟使用本席的問題在哪裡你知道就是說是不是自始至終這個王先生他節目上就都是唬爛啊因為\n367728\t395084\t你現在NCC給我們的數據第三頁的簡報是現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供輕鳥行動的資訊對不對那你又看到第五頁是說如果說真的有提供資訊要有這樣子的一個數據分析一定要有政府或是相關機關來去申請你才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析嗎他們有一些契約啦有一些上來使用也要有契約是不是對\n396044\t412713\t那我現在講的是說如果說到目前為止三大電信業者講的是說在這次清了行動沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話那27號他有辦法在節目裡面講的那居信迷你他已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題了是不是自始至終他根本都是在唬爛\n415015\t436651\t這恐怕你要請教王逸川先生這不是我請教王逸川先生的NCC是主管機關他是在節目裡面講的三立新聞台是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目所以委員已經有好幾個檢舉說我們現在以是否有違反事實調查去處理是來主委你在咳嗽啊來主委我請教如果說真的自始至終在唬爛的話這個衛廣法可以開罰多少錢\n440905\t457382\t那個是事實查證的問題是事實查證的問題因為到目前你講就是說他事實中可能都是在都是不實的嘛我不知道他怎麼天馬行空但他講的好像是煞有其事但實際上他是新聞台那事實查證如果說這個新聞台他播出這種完全沒有事實根據的\n458143\t474575\t他還可以講的太陽花、小草、五一七、民進黨樓下、交叉分析、基地台分析難怪人家講說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮如果違反事實查證的話從20萬到200萬是可以採取的\n477057\t505100\t最高可以從20萬罰到200萬最低20萬什麼時候可以調查出來因為我剛剛聽到委員有講好像是3個月到6個月3個月到6個月我們一般的程序沒有我們一般所有案件程序都是這樣處理好那什麼時候會請三立新聞台來說明我們這個禮拜會請發行一切先請他們意見陳述這個禮拜會先請三立新聞台意見陳述什麼時候他們必須要回覆原則上因為他要提輪委會所以以我們的慣例就是14天內他要提輪委會\n506223\t513430\t提什麼會?提他們的倫理委員會。倫理委員會。所以14天內他們要提他們的倫理委員會。所以現在看起來\n515299\t540745\t我們之前是14到21啦那因為這個案子都很關切社會矚目盡量趕快提對其實本席對於任何人都沒有意見但本席對於如果說今天是執政黨的一個高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情當然大家會心裡會毛骨悚然這也是為什麼今天召委會排說國家機器來做相關的事情因為我們很怕說國家機器介入太深\n542230\t551818\t我估計還是相信大家今天的講法但如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是說這中間一定有環節有差錯那到底是誰的問題我想NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳耀祥主委跟中華電信國董事長請陳耀祥主委、中華電信國董事長\n主委、國董事長其實到現在那麼多的委員關心以及人民炸鍋最主要就是兩個部分第一這件事情透過一個民進黨的現在執政黨的政策會執行長在節目上講出來我覺得這是非常令人這個毛骨悚然我們來看一下他當時怎麼講他說資料分析有些人是小草有些是太陽花太陽花什麼時候\n10年前換言之他掌握的資料是現在跟10年前的資料對比再來說用手機看他的年齡他有辦法用手機看到年齡還有這些人跟原來的小草比對過517民進黨樓下跟小草訊號比起來是不同人\n這一批人跟上一次選舉1月13號選前之夜對比也沒關係所以他掌握的是有這個小草有517有1月13號的選前之夜的對比然後主持人問說你去對這個記憶體來訊號啊你就可以知道啊所以王逸川王先生講的是透過手機訊號能分析啊\n好我知道到目前為止不管是主委也講說5月30號馬上找三大電信公司來講也都說沒有沒有外流中華電信國董事長更是從一開始到現在都講說個人資料都有保護嘛那我們想知道到底這一些電信公司的資料除了在中華電信手上以外除了在電信公司手上以外還有哪一些公司有可能取得\n委員這個可能第一個如果是個人資料來講的話就是電信公司就是三家三大電信業者那如果是已經被去識別化以後的這個數據看起來他是沒有去識別化如果有去識別化數據的話說電信業者來講的話最大數據分析的公司包括所謂的資訊公司市場調查都有可能有這些數據但是目前看起來他一開始講的原文對\n手中都是他一開始最一開始所講的嘛他所講的是沒有去識別化我們也很好奇說他這個說法來講他資料到底是怎麼去取得好那到目前為止今天NCC的資料在第三頁的時候就講是說三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業政府機關特定黨政人士跟政府跟公司來洽購相關的資料公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊\n所以公司沒有主動提供然後也沒有被動提供那到底他的資料從哪裡來還有可能從哪裡來這個可能要問王一川先生才了解所以說這個案子為什麼說那個檢調單位在調查就是這樣因為很多的資料你如果想去調查來講的話那可能要犯罪生產才有辦法去處理\n國董事長,你們這樣子的一個沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎?中華電信提供的人潮分析等這個數據應用分析的資料都是經過去識別化合乎法令規定來辦理的那你們現在跟,如果說跟一般的這個民調公司,現在有跟幾家民調公司合作是可以提供去識別化的資料?外部的很多的公司反而是我們的競爭業者\n我們會針對這個個案然後針對例如剛才所講的商業的這個振興觀光或者是這個交通疏解等等這些目的然後協助部分的縣市政府來提供這些相關的資料這個沒有問題你要聽懂本席的問題\n我在NCC的第5頁的報告裡面有看到嘛就是說這個也是一開始我們質疑這一個執政黨的政策會執政黨的時候執政黨的說法執政黨說沒有啊這個外面公司都有賣啊你看有什麼台中市政府辦的活動有新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料啊那本席現在想要問的是他各資料就是完全不同啊那還有\n更重要的是你們現在信誓旦旦都講是說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天親鳥行動的資料嘛對我們確實沒有對確實沒有好本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止NCC的調查都沒有提供親鳥行動的資料主動或被動提供嘛對不對那他又怎麼能夠來跟這個其他的這個各縣市的這樣的資料來去做比對是相同\n報告委員我們不清楚他的資料但我們剛才報告就是中華電信遵守個人資料保護法電信管理法的相關規範所以個人資料絕對沒有外流一定是留在公司通過數據分析的輪廓分析\nNCC主委你第5月的簡報是不是講是說三大電信業者有配合內政部有配合新北市政府觀光局有配合金門縣政府有辦相關活動那是數據是數據嘛對不對但到目前為止我剛剛請教的是說你三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動給任何人那這樣子他怎麼有辦法說在節目上27號講的這樣鉅細靡靡\n換言之到目前為止就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講的話是青鳥行動到底有沒有任何數據去給任何民間的公司去做分析?\n報告委員,我們沒有提這個再次強調這個我們在我有下去請同仁查5月17日到24日之間我們的大數據的這個人潮分析平台沒有異常的存取跟使用本席的問題在哪裡你知道就是說是不是自始至終這個王先生他節目上就都是唬爛啊因為\n你現在NCC給我們的數據第三頁的簡報是現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供輕鳥行動的資訊對不對那你又看到第五頁是說如果說真的有提供資訊要有這樣子的一個數據分析一定要有政府或是相關機關來去申請你才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析嗎他們有一些契約啦有一些上來使用也要有契約是不是對\n那我現在講的是說如果說到目前為止三大電信業者講的是說在這次清了行動沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話那27號他有辦法在節目裡面講的那居信迷你他已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題了是不是自始至終他根本都是在唬爛\n這恐怕你要請教王逸川先生這不是我請教王逸川先生的NCC是主管機關他是在節目裡面講的三立新聞台是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目所以委員已經有好幾個檢舉說我們現在以是否有違反事實調查去處理是來主委你在咳嗽啊來主委我請教如果說真的自始至終在唬爛的話這個衛廣法可以開罰多少錢\n那個是事實查證的問題是事實查證的問題因為到目前你講就是說他事實中可能都是在都是不實的嘛我不知道他怎麼天馬行空但他講的好像是煞有其事但實際上他是新聞台那事實查證如果說這個新聞台他播出這種完全沒有事實根據的\n他還可以講的太陽花、小草、五一七、民進黨樓下、交叉分析、基地台分析難怪人家講說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮如果違反事實查證的話從20萬到200萬是可以採取的\n最高可以從20萬罰到200萬最低20萬什麼時候可以調查出來因為我剛剛聽到委員有講好像是3個月到6個月3個月到6個月我們一般的程序沒有我們一般所有案件程序都是這樣處理好那什麼時候會請三立新聞台來說明我們這個禮拜會請發行一切先請他們意見陳述這個禮拜會先請三立新聞台意見陳述什麼時候他們必須要回覆原則上因為他要提輪委會所以以我們的慣例就是14天內他要提輪委會\n提什麼會?提他們的倫理委員會。倫理委員會。所以14天內他們要提他們的倫理委員會。所以現在看起來\n我們之前是14到21啦那因為這個案子都很關切社會矚目盡量趕快提對其實本席對於任何人都沒有意見但本席對於如果說今天是執政黨的一個高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情當然大家會心裡會毛骨悚然這也是為什麼今天召委會排說國家機器來做相關的事情因為我們很怕說國家機器介入太深\n我估計還是相信大家今天的講法但如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是說這中間一定有環節有差錯那到底是誰的問題我想NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.875 --> 00:09.465\n主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳耀祥主委跟中華電信國董事長請陳耀祥主委、中華電信國董事長\n\n00:18.690 --> 00:45.749\n主委、國董事長其實到現在那麼多的委員關心以及人民炸鍋最主要就是兩個部分第一這件事情透過一個民進黨的現在執政黨的政策會執行長在節目上講出來我覺得這是非常令人這個毛骨悚然我們來看一下他當時怎麼講他說資料分析有些人是小草有些是太陽花太陽花什麼時候\n\n00:47.070 --> 01:05.865\n10年前換言之他掌握的資料是現在跟10年前的資料對比再來說用手機看他的年齡他有辦法用手機看到年齡還有這些人跟原來的小草比對過517民進黨樓下跟小草訊號比起來是不同人\n\n01:07.134 --> 01:30.335\n這一批人跟上一次選舉1月13號選前之夜對比也沒關係所以他掌握的是有這個小草有517有1月13號的選前之夜的對比然後主持人問說你去對這個記憶體來訊號啊你就可以知道啊所以王逸川王先生講的是透過手機訊號能分析啊\n\n01:31.260 --> 01:53.599\n好我知道到目前為止不管是主委也講說5月30號馬上找三大電信公司來講也都說沒有沒有外流中華電信國董事長更是從一開始到現在都講說個人資料都有保護嘛那我們想知道到底這一些電信公司的資料除了在中華電信手上以外除了在電信公司手上以外還有哪一些公司有可能取得\n\n01:55.727 --> 02:16.276\n委員這個可能第一個如果是個人資料來講的話就是電信公司就是三家三大電信業者那如果是已經被去識別化以後的這個數據看起來他是沒有去識別化如果有去識別化數據的話說電信業者來講的話最大數據分析的公司包括所謂的資訊公司市場調查都有可能有這些數據但是目前看起來他一開始講的原文對\n\n02:17.737 --> 02:41.951\n手中都是他一開始最一開始所講的嘛他所講的是沒有去識別化我們也很好奇說他這個說法來講他資料到底是怎麼去取得好那到目前為止今天NCC的資料在第三頁的時候就講是說三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業政府機關特定黨政人士跟政府跟公司來洽購相關的資料公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊\n\n02:43.584 --> 03:00.002\n所以公司沒有主動提供然後也沒有被動提供那到底他的資料從哪裡來還有可能從哪裡來這個可能要問王一川先生才了解所以說這個案子為什麼說那個檢調單位在調查就是這樣因為很多的資料你如果想去調查來講的話那可能要犯罪生產才有辦法去處理\n\n03:01.683 --> 03:28.128\n國董事長,你們這樣子的一個沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎?中華電信提供的人潮分析等這個數據應用分析的資料都是經過去識別化合乎法令規定來辦理的那你們現在跟,如果說跟一般的這個民調公司,現在有跟幾家民調公司合作是可以提供去識別化的資料?外部的很多的公司反而是我們的競爭業者\n\n03:30.987 --> 03:51.517\n我們會針對這個個案然後針對例如剛才所講的商業的這個振興觀光或者是這個交通疏解等等這些目的然後協助部分的縣市政府來提供這些相關的資料這個沒有問題你要聽懂本席的問題\n\n03:52.958 --> 04:17.399\n我在NCC的第5頁的報告裡面有看到嘛就是說這個也是一開始我們質疑這一個執政黨的政策會執政黨的時候執政黨的說法執政黨說沒有啊這個外面公司都有賣啊你看有什麼台中市政府辦的活動有新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料啊那本席現在想要問的是他各資料就是完全不同啊那還有\n\n04:18.280 --> 04:46.150\n更重要的是你們現在信誓旦旦都講是說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天親鳥行動的資料嘛對我們確實沒有對確實沒有好本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止NCC的調查都沒有提供親鳥行動的資料主動或被動提供嘛對不對那他又怎麼能夠來跟這個其他的這個各縣市的這樣的資料來去做比對是相同\n\n04:47.677 --> 05:02.737\n報告委員我們不清楚他的資料但我們剛才報告就是中華電信遵守個人資料保護法電信管理法的相關規範所以個人資料絕對沒有外流一定是留在公司通過數據分析的輪廓分析\n\n05:05.200 --> 05:27.614\nNCC主委你第5月的簡報是不是講是說三大電信業者有配合內政部有配合新北市政府觀光局有配合金門縣政府有辦相關活動那是數據是數據嘛對不對但到目前為止我剛剛請教的是說你三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動給任何人那這樣子他怎麼有辦法說在節目上27號講的這樣鉅細靡靡\n\n05:30.898 --> 05:39.170\n換言之到目前為止就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講的話是青鳥行動到底有沒有任何數據去給任何民間的公司去做分析?\n\n05:41.926 --> 06:04.438\n報告委員,我們沒有提這個再次強調這個我們在我有下去請同仁查5月17日到24日之間我們的大數據的這個人潮分析平台沒有異常的存取跟使用本席的問題在哪裡你知道就是說是不是自始至終這個王先生他節目上就都是唬爛啊因為\n\n06:07.728 --> 06:35.084\n你現在NCC給我們的數據第三頁的簡報是現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供輕鳥行動的資訊對不對那你又看到第五頁是說如果說真的有提供資訊要有這樣子的一個數據分析一定要有政府或是相關機關來去申請你才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析嗎他們有一些契約啦有一些上來使用也要有契約是不是對\n\n06:36.044 --> 06:52.713\n那我現在講的是說如果說到目前為止三大電信業者講的是說在這次清了行動沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話那27號他有辦法在節目裡面講的那居信迷你他已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題了是不是自始至終他根本都是在唬爛\n\n06:55.015 --> 07:16.651\n這恐怕你要請教王逸川先生這不是我請教王逸川先生的NCC是主管機關他是在節目裡面講的三立新聞台是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目所以委員已經有好幾個檢舉說我們現在以是否有違反事實調查去處理是來主委你在咳嗽啊來主委我請教如果說真的自始至終在唬爛的話這個衛廣法可以開罰多少錢\n\n07:20.905 --> 07:37.382\n那個是事實查證的問題是事實查證的問題因為到目前你講就是說他事實中可能都是在都是不實的嘛我不知道他怎麼天馬行空但他講的好像是煞有其事但實際上他是新聞台那事實查證如果說這個新聞台他播出這種完全沒有事實根據的\n\n07:38.143 --> 07:54.575\n他還可以講的太陽花、小草、五一七、民進黨樓下、交叉分析、基地台分析難怪人家講說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮如果違反事實查證的話從20萬到200萬是可以採取的\n\n07:57.057 --> 08:25.100\n最高可以從20萬罰到200萬最低20萬什麼時候可以調查出來因為我剛剛聽到委員有講好像是3個月到6個月3個月到6個月我們一般的程序沒有我們一般所有案件程序都是這樣處理好那什麼時候會請三立新聞台來說明我們這個禮拜會請發行一切先請他們意見陳述這個禮拜會先請三立新聞台意見陳述什麼時候他們必須要回覆原則上因為他要提輪委會所以以我們的慣例就是14天內他要提輪委會\n\n08:26.223 --> 08:33.430\n提什麼會?提他們的倫理委員會。倫理委員會。所以14天內他們要提他們的倫理委員會。所以現在看起來\n\n08:35.299 --> 09:00.745\n我們之前是14到21啦那因為這個案子都很關切社會矚目盡量趕快提對其實本席對於任何人都沒有意見但本席對於如果說今天是執政黨的一個高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情當然大家會心裡會毛骨悚然這也是為什麼今天召委會排說國家機器來做相關的事情因為我們很怕說國家機器介入太深\n\n09:02.230 --> 09:11.818\n我估計還是相信大家今天的講法但如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是說這中間一定有環節有差錯那到底是誰的問題我想NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.875,"end":9.465,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳耀祥主委跟中華電信國董事長請陳耀祥主委、中華電信國董事長"},{"start":18.69,"end":45.749,"text":"主委、國董事長其實到現在那麼多的委員關心以及人民炸鍋最主要就是兩個部分第一這件事情透過一個民進黨的現在執政黨的政策會執行長在節目上講出來我覺得這是非常令人這個毛骨悚然我們來看一下他當時怎麼講他說資料分析有些人是小草有些是太陽花太陽花什麼時候"},{"start":47.07,"end":65.865,"text":"10年前換言之他掌握的資料是現在跟10年前的資料對比再來說用手機看他的年齡他有辦法用手機看到年齡還有這些人跟原來的小草比對過517民進黨樓下跟小草訊號比起來是不同人"},{"start":67.134,"end":90.335,"text":"這一批人跟上一次選舉1月13號選前之夜對比也沒關係所以他掌握的是有這個小草有517有1月13號的選前之夜的對比然後主持人問說你去對這個記憶體來訊號啊你就可以知道啊所以王逸川王先生講的是透過手機訊號能分析啊"},{"start":91.26,"end":113.599,"text":"好我知道到目前為止不管是主委也講說5月30號馬上找三大電信公司來講也都說沒有沒有外流中華電信國董事長更是從一開始到現在都講說個人資料都有保護嘛那我們想知道到底這一些電信公司的資料除了在中華電信手上以外除了在電信公司手上以外還有哪一些公司有可能取得"},{"start":115.727,"end":136.276,"text":"委員這個可能第一個如果是個人資料來講的話就是電信公司就是三家三大電信業者那如果是已經被去識別化以後的這個數據看起來他是沒有去識別化如果有去識別化數據的話說電信業者來講的話最大數據分析的公司包括所謂的資訊公司市場調查都有可能有這些數據但是目前看起來他一開始講的原文對"},{"start":137.737,"end":161.951,"text":"手中都是他一開始最一開始所講的嘛他所講的是沒有去識別化我們也很好奇說他這個說法來講他資料到底是怎麼去取得好那到目前為止今天NCC的資料在第三頁的時候就講是說三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業政府機關特定黨政人士跟政府跟公司來洽購相關的資料公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊"},{"start":163.584,"end":180.002,"text":"所以公司沒有主動提供然後也沒有被動提供那到底他的資料從哪裡來還有可能從哪裡來這個可能要問王一川先生才了解所以說這個案子為什麼說那個檢調單位在調查就是這樣因為很多的資料你如果想去調查來講的話那可能要犯罪生產才有辦法去處理"},{"start":181.683,"end":208.128,"text":"國董事長,你們這樣子的一個沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎?中華電信提供的人潮分析等這個數據應用分析的資料都是經過去識別化合乎法令規定來辦理的那你們現在跟,如果說跟一般的這個民調公司,現在有跟幾家民調公司合作是可以提供去識別化的資料?外部的很多的公司反而是我們的競爭業者"},{"start":210.987,"end":231.517,"text":"我們會針對這個個案然後針對例如剛才所講的商業的這個振興觀光或者是這個交通疏解等等這些目的然後協助部分的縣市政府來提供這些相關的資料這個沒有問題你要聽懂本席的問題"},{"start":232.958,"end":257.399,"text":"我在NCC的第5頁的報告裡面有看到嘛就是說這個也是一開始我們質疑這一個執政黨的政策會執政黨的時候執政黨的說法執政黨說沒有啊這個外面公司都有賣啊你看有什麼台中市政府辦的活動有新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料啊那本席現在想要問的是他各資料就是完全不同啊那還有"},{"start":258.28,"end":286.15,"text":"更重要的是你們現在信誓旦旦都講是說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天親鳥行動的資料嘛對我們確實沒有對確實沒有好本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止NCC的調查都沒有提供親鳥行動的資料主動或被動提供嘛對不對那他又怎麼能夠來跟這個其他的這個各縣市的這樣的資料來去做比對是相同"},{"start":287.677,"end":302.737,"text":"報告委員我們不清楚他的資料但我們剛才報告就是中華電信遵守個人資料保護法電信管理法的相關規範所以個人資料絕對沒有外流一定是留在公司通過數據分析的輪廓分析"},{"start":305.2,"end":327.614,"text":"NCC主委你第5月的簡報是不是講是說三大電信業者有配合內政部有配合新北市政府觀光局有配合金門縣政府有辦相關活動那是數據是數據嘛對不對但到目前為止我剛剛請教的是說你三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動給任何人那這樣子他怎麼有辦法說在節目上27號講的這樣鉅細靡靡"},{"start":330.898,"end":339.17,"text":"換言之到目前為止就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講的話是青鳥行動到底有沒有任何數據去給任何民間的公司去做分析?"},{"start":341.926,"end":364.438,"text":"報告委員,我們沒有提這個再次強調這個我們在我有下去請同仁查5月17日到24日之間我們的大數據的這個人潮分析平台沒有異常的存取跟使用本席的問題在哪裡你知道就是說是不是自始至終這個王先生他節目上就都是唬爛啊因為"},{"start":367.728,"end":395.084,"text":"你現在NCC給我們的數據第三頁的簡報是現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供輕鳥行動的資訊對不對那你又看到第五頁是說如果說真的有提供資訊要有這樣子的一個數據分析一定要有政府或是相關機關來去申請你才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析嗎他們有一些契約啦有一些上來使用也要有契約是不是對"},{"start":396.044,"end":412.713,"text":"那我現在講的是說如果說到目前為止三大電信業者講的是說在這次清了行動沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話那27號他有辦法在節目裡面講的那居信迷你他已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題了是不是自始至終他根本都是在唬爛"},{"start":415.015,"end":436.651,"text":"這恐怕你要請教王逸川先生這不是我請教王逸川先生的NCC是主管機關他是在節目裡面講的三立新聞台是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目所以委員已經有好幾個檢舉說我們現在以是否有違反事實調查去處理是來主委你在咳嗽啊來主委我請教如果說真的自始至終在唬爛的話這個衛廣法可以開罰多少錢"},{"start":440.905,"end":457.382,"text":"那個是事實查證的問題是事實查證的問題因為到目前你講就是說他事實中可能都是在都是不實的嘛我不知道他怎麼天馬行空但他講的好像是煞有其事但實際上他是新聞台那事實查證如果說這個新聞台他播出這種完全沒有事實根據的"},{"start":458.143,"end":474.575,"text":"他還可以講的太陽花、小草、五一七、民進黨樓下、交叉分析、基地台分析難怪人家講說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮如果違反事實查證的話從20萬到200萬是可以採取的"},{"start":477.057,"end":505.1,"text":"最高可以從20萬罰到200萬最低20萬什麼時候可以調查出來因為我剛剛聽到委員有講好像是3個月到6個月3個月到6個月我們一般的程序沒有我們一般所有案件程序都是這樣處理好那什麼時候會請三立新聞台來說明我們這個禮拜會請發行一切先請他們意見陳述這個禮拜會先請三立新聞台意見陳述什麼時候他們必須要回覆原則上因為他要提輪委會所以以我們的慣例就是14天內他要提輪委會"},{"start":506.223,"end":513.43,"text":"提什麼會?提他們的倫理委員會。倫理委員會。所以14天內他們要提他們的倫理委員會。所以現在看起來"},{"start":515.299,"end":540.745,"text":"我們之前是14到21啦那因為這個案子都很關切社會矚目盡量趕快提對其實本席對於任何人都沒有意見但本席對於如果說今天是執政黨的一個高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情當然大家會心裡會毛骨悚然這也是為什麼今天召委會排說國家機器來做相關的事情因為我們很怕說國家機器介入太深"},{"start":542.23,"end":551.818,"text":"我估計還是相信大家今天的講法但如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是說這中間一定有環節有差錯那到底是誰的問題我想NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚"}]}}}}