{"id":153470,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707dd987edbf2ca6fa259c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be252fb35bfe7c29c185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"13:14:57 - 13:23:08","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T13:14:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T13:23:08+08:00","duration":491,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1550,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（13時14分）謝謝主席。麻煩幫我邀請NCC的陳主委，還有中華電信郭董事長。"],["主席：請陳主委、郭董事長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：兩位好。原則上在我們民主國家，一個執政黨的高層在一個公正的政論節目中所講的話，我們原則上是可以相信的，對不對？原則上我們是可以相信的。就是因為在這樣子的背景之下，我們國人才會對我們的資安疑慮產生這麼大的波瀾，如果不是王義川，如果只是一個路邊的阿貓阿狗講，不會有人相信這件事情，就是因為他的身分，然後在特定的新聞台講過這樣的話，才會有這麼大的討論。我知道NCC你們說有函詢三大業者，他們都說沒有提供任何資料。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們請他到會來做調查。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那我先確認一下，在不管他們有沒有提供資料的情況下，針對不同的活動去比對出席的人員有沒有重複這件事情，是我們中華電信一些去識別化，只給輪廓的一些數據所能夠調查出來的事情嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們功能上沒有設定，因為去識別化之後，你就沒辦法回溯，所以沒有辦法做不同場次……"],["廖委員先翔：所以就算有提供這份資料，應該也是沒有辦法做這樣子的判斷嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：是的。"],["廖委員先翔：所以這份資料的來源，絕對也……就算它是真的話，也不會是正常的、正式的管道來獲得，是不是？應該可以這麼來理解？"],["郭董事長水義：本公司沒有提供，中華電信沒有提供這樣的資料。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那所以說，在這樣子的情況下，中華電信有講說我們並沒有針對青鳥活動，或者是之前講的特別活動提供特別訊息的資料？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那我想確認一下，有沒有政府的單位長期以來有跟中華電信的機房來做串接，也就是說他們沒有跟你們提出申請，但是你們要無時無刻的把相關通訊的一些資料傳輸給特定單位，有沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，沒有。中華電信一切都遵照國家的法令來辦理，不可能做這樣的事。"],["廖委員先翔：包括國安單位、任何單位……"],["郭董事長水義：沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：也不可能無時無刻的去串接你們的資料獲取資訊？"],["郭董事長水義：絕對不可能這樣做。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那在假設王義川先生講的是事實的情況下，那我的推論就只有一個可能的，就是電信公司的系統被駭了，才有可能有這樣子的情況，不然你們想得出來有其他的情況，王先生手上拿的資料是怎麼取得的嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：我們不清楚。"],["廖委員先翔：你不清楚嘛！對不對？你們不清楚，那唯一的可能就是……但是他就是有資料嘛！唯一的可能就是中華電信的網路資訊，或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛！你們有沒有被駭過，有沒有辦法做事後的調查？會有相關的足跡吧？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們人潮分析的平台，從5月17號到5月24號之間，這裡面沒有任何的異常存取或使用。"],["廖委員先翔：這個平台應該也是一個整理過的平台，對不對？那原始的資料呢？有整理過了嗎？有去確認過了嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們的原始資料、電信的限定資料都只在中華電信內部，不可能外流。剛才有報告，其他委員有詢問，個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["郭董事長水義：個人資料一定是留在中華電信……"],["廖委員先翔：你們數據分析確認資料沒有被盜過？"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["廖委員先翔：那原始的、最基本的資料在你們中華電信的內部？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那這個東西有沒有被竊取過？會不會長期以來你們就被竊取，只是你們不知道？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們清查的過程是沒有發現。"],["廖委員先翔：有清查過最原始的資料嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：就剛才提到5月17號到24號之間，我們相關的資料，整個平台……"],["廖委員先翔：那是人流的平台，人流數據的平台，我現在講的是最原始的數據，最原本的data，你們有確認過了嗎？這個資料有沒有可能……大家都在講國家機器，有沒有可能某一個單位長期以來沒有經過你們的同意去竊取你們的資料？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，不可能發生這樣的事情！我們會定期做資安相關的防護檢查，所以如果有任何異常的行為都會被我們發現。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們確認你們最原始的資料，以及你們整理過的人流資料，長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動，都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性？"],["郭董事長水義：對，不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣一個狀況。"],["廖委員先翔：所以這就是一個很大的羅生門嘛！那你們有猜想得出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有這個時間去想這個。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有時間去想？好。目前唯一可能的是，在政論頻道上面，他的說法有可能是「唬爛」嘛，目前也有這種說法。剛剛也有委員問，現在NCC已經在調查了，其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字寫著「來賓發言不代表本臺立場」，我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視臺嗎？還是誰講的誰負責？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們還是會落實事實查證原則，並不表示他貼了那一張文字以後就免責。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就算是來賓，如果未來來賓在政論節目上面有一些虛偽不實的說法，電視臺應該也是要有相關的責任？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：主持人在主持整個節目過程，對於比如有涉及到可能事實查證的部分，這還是一樣，他有一個維持的義務。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我就尊重後續的調查。最後一點，因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛！剛剛包括吳宗憲委員，還有黃健豪委員都有提到，我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候，都會有定型化契約，裡面可能就有提到這個資料要不要提供，我們會去勾選，對不對？但是其實很多民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼，包括其實我個人，我也已經忘記上次在簽門號的時候，我勾了什麼。現在既然已經變成一個全國性矚目的資安事件，NCC可不可以請三大電信業者發簡訊給每一個用戶，告知用戶當初在個資的定型化契約是勾哪一個選項。如果我們要調整，我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改，這部分可不可以？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：以當事人的個資來講，就是有退出的權利這個部分，如果當事人對他的資料有疑慮，他可以跟服務的這些所謂電信公司要求，比如在這個部分可能有變更，那是契約變更的部分。"],["廖委員先翔：你請電信公司傳簡訊也不用錢嘛！對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們在個人資料提供的過程當中，我們設定default是，如果沒有勾就表示不同意。"],["廖委員先翔：是，當然。"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["廖委員先翔：好，但是我剛剛就講，這個東西大家都只是簽而已，大家不會去看，有時候可能也是服務人員引導就勾選，也有很多這樣的情形。"],["郭董事長水義：他也可以不勾。"],["廖委員先翔：就是服務人員會引導，所以就勾選了。那沒關係，既然已經發生這樣的事情了，很多人想要保護自己的個資，我也沒有一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶，但是至少NCC或者是三大電信應該要有一個公開的說明，如果我們的用戶想要取消相關電信足跡的追蹤，用戶可以怎麼做？是不是可以後續來做一個相關的聲明稿，讓全國民眾都知道來保障自己的權益？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：OK。就是當事人如果對這個有疑慮，比如他事後變更可以退出的這個部分……"],["廖委員先翔：對，三大業者要怎麼做、管道是哪邊？應該讓每一位用戶知道。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們來處理，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員的發言。","下一位登記的委員陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在。","請游顥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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\"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 487.814, \"end\": 487.954, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 487.954, \"end\": 488.014, \"score\": 0.668}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 488.014, \"end\": 488.134, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 488.134, \"end\": 488.374, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"戶\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 488.374, \"end\": 488.494, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 488.494, \"end\": 489.075, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 489.075, \"end\": 489.095, \"score\": 0.058}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,517 --> 00:00:13,003\n好謝謝主席麻煩幫我邀請我們這個NCC的陳朱偉還有中華電信郭董事長請陳朱偉郭董事長好兩位好原則上在我們一個民主國家一個執政黨的高層在一個公正的一個政論節目中所講的話我們原則上是可以相信的嘛對不對\n\n2\n00:00:31,991 --> 00:00:32,151\n我先確認一下\n\n3\n00:01:00,089 --> 00:01:15,108\n在不管他們有沒有提供資料的情況下針對不同的活動去比對出席的人員有沒有重複這件事情是我們中華電信一些去識別化只給輪廓的一些數據所能夠\n\n4\n00:01:16,189 --> 00:01:31,383\n所能夠這個調查出來的事情嗎報告委員我們功能上沒有設定因為去識別化之後你就沒辦法回溯所以沒有辦法做不同所以就算有提供這份資料應該也是沒有辦法做這樣子的判斷嗎是的是所以\n\n5\n00:01:32,504 --> 00:02:00,226\n這份資料的來源那絕對也不應該就算它是真的的話也不會是正常的正式的管道來獲得嘛是不是應該可以這麼來理解本公司沒有提供中華電信沒有提供這樣的資料好那所以說在這樣子的情況下我們中華電信有講說我們並沒有針對清雕活動或是之前講的特別活動提供特別的訊息的資料那我想確認一下有沒有\n\n6\n00:02:01,314 --> 00:02:26,491\n政府的單位長期以來有跟我們中華電信的記憶房來做串接也就是說我們他們沒有跟你們提出申請但是我們是在無時無刻的把我們相關的通訊的一些資料傳輸給特定的單位有沒有委員沒有沒有中華電信一切都遵照國家的法令來辦理不可能做這樣的事包括國安單位任何的單位沒有也不可能無時無刻的去串接我們的資料獲取資訊\n\n7\n00:02:28,714 --> 00:02:41,334\n好那在假設王逸川先生講的是事實的情況下那我們目前可能我的推論就只有一個可能了嘛就是我們電信公司的系統被害了嘛才有可能有這樣子的情況嘛\n\n8\n00:02:42,506 --> 00:03:03,655\n不然你們有想得出來其他的情況王毅先生手上拿的資料他是怎麼取得的嗎我們不清楚你不清楚嘛對不對你們不清楚那唯一的可能就是但是他就是有資料嘛唯一的可能就是我們中華電信的網路資訊或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛我們之後有沒有被駭過有沒有辦法做事後的調查\n\n9\n00:03:05,510 --> 00:03:30,373\n報告委員,上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護的單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們燃草分析的平台從5月17日到5月14日之間,這裡面沒有任何的異常的存取或使用這個平台應該也是整理過的一個平台嗎?對不對?那原始的資料呢?\n\n10\n00:03:31,380 --> 00:03:59,806\n有整理過了嗎?有去確認過了嗎?剛剛委員我們的這個原始的資料電信的信令資料呢都只在中華電信內部不可能這個外流剛才有報告其他委員有詢問個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事對個人資料一定是留在中華電信對你們數據分析確認沒有資料沒有沒有被盜過嗎?對那原始的最基本的資料在我們中華電信的內部嗎?是那這個東西有沒有被竊取過?或是長期來你們就會被竊取你們不知道啊\n\n11\n00:04:00,806 --> 00:04:19,978\n報告委員我們清查的過程是沒有發現有清查過嗎最原始的資料就剛才提到5月17日到24日之間我們相關的資料有這個整個平台有那是人流的平台嘛人流數據的平台嘛我現在講的是最原始的數據最原本的data你們有確認過了嗎這個資料我們有可能\n\n12\n00:04:21,311 --> 00:04:42,707\n大家都在講國家機器嘛有沒有可能某個單位長期來就是沒有經過你們的同意去調取去竊取你們的資料報告委員不可能發生這樣的事情我們會定期做這個治安相關的防護的檢查所以如果有任何這個異常的行為都會被我們發現所以你們確認你們最原始的資料以及你們整理過的人流資料在\n\n13\n00:04:44,506 --> 00:04:57,534\n長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣的一個狀況所以現在目前就是一個很大的螺旋門那你們有猜想的出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎\n\n14\n00:04:59,622 --> 00:05:22,120\n我們沒有這個時間去想這個目前唯一可能唯一可能的那就可能在政論頻道上面有他的說法有可能是唬爛嘛目前有這種說法嘛那剛剛也有委員問的就是說我們現在NCC也已經在調查了嘛那其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字啦寫說來賓的發言就可能\n\n15\n00:05:26,403 --> 00:05:30,795\n我們來賓發言不代表本台立場我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視台嗎?還是說誰講的誰負責?\n\n16\n00:05:35,346 --> 00:06:02,933\n我們還是會依照我們的若實事實查證原則並不表示說他貼在那一張文字以後就免責所以說就算是來賓如果說未來的來賓在這段節目上面有一些虛偽不實的說法那電視台應該也是要有相關的一個責任這個主持人在主持整個節目過程裡面來講的話對於這個比如說這個有涉及到可能事實查證的部分這還是要他有一個維持的義務好那我就尊重我們後續的調查那最後一點\n\n17\n00:06:03,433 --> 00:06:19,243\n因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛對不對那剛剛包括我們的吳宗憲委員還有我們的黃建浩委員都有提到我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候都會有定型化契約嘛那裡面可能就是有提到這個資料要不要提供我們會去勾選嘛對不對\n\n18\n00:06:20,123 --> 00:06:37,126\n那我想但是其實很多的民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼包括其實我個人我已經忘記我上次在簽門號的時候我勾了什麼嘛那現在既然已經變成一個是全國性的一個矚目的資安事件我們可不可以我們NCC可不可以請我們的三大\n\n19\n00:06:38,343 --> 00:06:54,259\n電信業者每個人去發簡訊給每個用戶告知你這個用戶當初在個資的定期化契約你是勾哪一個選項如果我們要調整我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改這部分可不可以\n\n20\n00:06:55,020 --> 00:06:57,621\n報告委員我們在個人資料提供的過程當中我們設定我們的D4是如果沒有勾就表示不同意是當然對\n\n21\n00:07:20,874 --> 00:07:38,964\n好那但是我剛剛就講很多人就說這個東西大概就只是簽而已嘛大家不會去看那有時候可能也是這個服務人員引導啊就勾勾勾也有很多這樣的情形嘛對不對就是服務人員會引導嘛啊就勾勾勾那沒關係我們可不可以既然已經發生這樣的事情了很多人想要保護自己的個資\n\n22\n00:07:40,264 --> 00:07:54,217\n我也沒有說一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶但是至少我們NCC或者是三大電信業者應該要有一個公開的說明如果說我們的用戶想要取消相關的電信足跡的追蹤的話我們用戶可以怎麼做\n\n23\n00:07:54,978 --> 00:08:09,095\n是不是可以後續來做一個相關的聲明稿讓全國民眾人都知道來保障自己的權益就是說當事人如果對這個有疑慮來講的話比如說這個部分他事後邊跟可以退出的這個部分對三大業者要怎麼做管到是哪邊應該讓每一位用戶知道好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4517\t13003\t好謝謝主席麻煩幫我邀請我們這個NCC的陳朱偉還有中華電信郭董事長請陳朱偉郭董事長好兩位好原則上在我們一個民主國家一個執政黨的高層在一個公正的一個政論節目中所講的話我們原則上是可以相信的嘛對不對\n31991\t32151\t我先確認一下\n60089\t75108\t在不管他們有沒有提供資料的情況下針對不同的活動去比對出席的人員有沒有重複這件事情是我們中華電信一些去識別化只給輪廓的一些數據所能夠\n76189\t91383\t所能夠這個調查出來的事情嗎報告委員我們功能上沒有設定因為去識別化之後你就沒辦法回溯所以沒有辦法做不同所以就算有提供這份資料應該也是沒有辦法做這樣子的判斷嗎是的是所以\n92504\t120226\t這份資料的來源那絕對也不應該就算它是真的的話也不會是正常的正式的管道來獲得嘛是不是應該可以這麼來理解本公司沒有提供中華電信沒有提供這樣的資料好那所以說在這樣子的情況下我們中華電信有講說我們並沒有針對清雕活動或是之前講的特別活動提供特別的訊息的資料那我想確認一下有沒有\n121314\t146491\t政府的單位長期以來有跟我們中華電信的記憶房來做串接也就是說我們他們沒有跟你們提出申請但是我們是在無時無刻的把我們相關的通訊的一些資料傳輸給特定的單位有沒有委員沒有沒有中華電信一切都遵照國家的法令來辦理不可能做這樣的事包括國安單位任何的單位沒有也不可能無時無刻的去串接我們的資料獲取資訊\n148714\t161334\t好 那在假設王逸川先生講的是事實的情況下 那我們目前可能 我的推論就只有一個可能了嘛 就是我們電信公司的系統被害了嘛 才有可能有這樣子的情況嘛\n162506\t183655\t不然你們有想得出來其他的情況王毅先生手上拿的資料他是怎麼取得的嗎我們不清楚你不清楚嘛 對不對你們不清楚那唯一的可能就是但是他就是有資料嘛唯一的可能就是我們中華電信的網路資訊或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛我們之後有沒有被駭過有沒有辦法做事後的調查\n185510\t210373\t報告委員,上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護的單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們燃草分析的平台從5月17日到5月14日之間,這裡面沒有任何的異常的存取或使用這個平台應該也是整理過的一個平台嗎?對不對?那原始的資料呢?\n211380\t239806\t有整理過了嗎?有去確認過了嗎?剛剛委員我們的這個原始的資料電信的信令資料呢都只在中華電信內部不可能這個外流剛才有報告其他委員有詢問個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事對個人資料一定是留在中華電信對你們數據分析確認沒有資料沒有沒有被盜過嗎?對那原始的最基本的資料在我們中華電信的內部嗎?是那這個東西有沒有被竊取過?或是長期來你們就會被竊取你們不知道啊\n240806\t259978\t報告委員我們清查的過程是沒有發現有清查過嗎最原始的資料就剛才提到5月17日到24日之間我們相關的資料有這個整個平台有那是人流的平台嘛人流數據的平台嘛我現在講的是最原始的數據最原本的data你們有確認過了嗎這個資料我們有可能\n261311\t282707\t大家都在講國家機器嘛有沒有可能某個單位長期來就是沒有經過你們的同意去調取去竊取你們的資料報告委員不可能發生這樣的事情我們會定期做這個治安相關的防護的檢查所以如果有任何這個異常的行為都會被我們發現所以你們確認你們最原始的資料以及你們整理過的人流資料在\n284506\t297534\t長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣的一個狀況所以現在目前就是一個很大的螺旋門那你們有猜想的出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎\n299622\t322120\t我們沒有這個時間去想這個目前唯一可能唯一可能的那就可能在政論頻道上面有他的說法有可能是唬爛嘛目前有這種說法嘛那剛剛也有委員問的就是說我們現在NCC也已經在調查了嘛那其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字啦寫說來賓的發言就可能\n326403\t330795\t我們來賓發言不代表本台立場我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視台嗎?還是說誰講的誰負責?\n335346\t362933\t我們還是會依照我們的若實事實查證原則並不表示說他貼在那一張文字以後就免責所以說就算是來賓如果說未來的來賓在這段節目上面有一些虛偽不實的說法那電視台應該也是要有相關的一個責任這個主持人在主持整個節目過程裡面來講的話對於這個比如說這個有涉及到可能事實查證的部分這還是要他有一個維持的義務好那我就尊重我們後續的調查那最後一點\n363433\t379243\t因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛 對不對那剛剛包括我們的吳宗憲委員還有我們的黃建浩委員都有提到我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候都會有定型化契約嘛那裡面可能就是有提到這個資料要不要提供我們會去勾選嘛 對不對\n380123\t397126\t那我想但是其實很多的民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼包括其實我個人我已經忘記我上次在簽門號的時候我勾了什麼嘛那現在既然已經變成一個是全國性的一個矚目的資安事件我們可不可以我們NCC可不可以請我們的三大\n398343\t414259\t電信業者每個人去發簡訊給每個用戶告知你這個用戶當初在個資的定期化契約你是勾哪一個選項如果我們要調整我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改這部分可不可以\n415020\t417621\t報告委員我們在個人資料提供的過程當中我們設定我們的D4是如果沒有勾就表示不同意是當然對\n440874\t458964\t好那但是我剛剛就講很多人就說這個東西大概就只是簽而已嘛大家不會去看那有時候可能也是這個服務人員引導啊就勾勾勾也有很多這樣的情形嘛對不對就是服務人員會引導嘛啊就勾勾勾那沒關係我們可不可以既然已經發生這樣的事情了很多人想要保護自己的個資\n460264\t474217\t我也沒有說一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶但是至少我們NCC或者是三大電信業者應該要有一個公開的說明如果說我們的用戶想要取消相關的電信足跡的追蹤的話我們用戶可以怎麼做\n474978\t489095\t是不是可以後續來做一個相關的聲明稿讓全國民眾人都知道來保障自己的權益就是說當事人如果對這個有疑慮來講的話比如說這個部分他事後邊跟可以退出的這個部分對三大業者要怎麼做管到是哪邊應該讓每一位用戶知道好謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席麻煩幫我邀請我們這個NCC的陳朱偉還有中華電信郭董事長請陳朱偉郭董事長好兩位好原則上在我們一個民主國家一個執政黨的高層在一個公正的一個政論節目中所講的話我們原則上是可以相信的嘛對不對\n我先確認一下\n在不管他們有沒有提供資料的情況下針對不同的活動去比對出席的人員有沒有重複這件事情是我們中華電信一些去識別化只給輪廓的一些數據所能夠\n所能夠這個調查出來的事情嗎報告委員我們功能上沒有設定因為去識別化之後你就沒辦法回溯所以沒有辦法做不同所以就算有提供這份資料應該也是沒有辦法做這樣子的判斷嗎是的是所以\n這份資料的來源那絕對也不應該就算它是真的的話也不會是正常的正式的管道來獲得嘛是不是應該可以這麼來理解本公司沒有提供中華電信沒有提供這樣的資料好那所以說在這樣子的情況下我們中華電信有講說我們並沒有針對清雕活動或是之前講的特別活動提供特別的訊息的資料那我想確認一下有沒有\n政府的單位長期以來有跟我們中華電信的記憶房來做串接也就是說我們他們沒有跟你們提出申請但是我們是在無時無刻的把我們相關的通訊的一些資料傳輸給特定的單位有沒有委員沒有沒有中華電信一切都遵照國家的法令來辦理不可能做這樣的事包括國安單位任何的單位沒有也不可能無時無刻的去串接我們的資料獲取資訊\n好 那在假設王逸川先生講的是事實的情況下 那我們目前可能 我的推論就只有一個可能了嘛 就是我們電信公司的系統被害了嘛 才有可能有這樣子的情況嘛\n不然你們有想得出來其他的情況王毅先生手上拿的資料他是怎麼取得的嗎我們不清楚你不清楚嘛 對不對你們不清楚那唯一的可能就是但是他就是有資料嘛唯一的可能就是我們中華電信的網路資訊或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛我們之後有沒有被駭過有沒有辦法做事後的調查\n報告委員,上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護的單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們燃草分析的平台從5月17日到5月14日之間,這裡面沒有任何的異常的存取或使用這個平台應該也是整理過的一個平台嗎?對不對?那原始的資料呢?\n有整理過了嗎?有去確認過了嗎?剛剛委員我們的這個原始的資料電信的信令資料呢都只在中華電信內部不可能這個外流剛才有報告其他委員有詢問個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事對個人資料一定是留在中華電信對你們數據分析確認沒有資料沒有沒有被盜過嗎?對那原始的最基本的資料在我們中華電信的內部嗎?是那這個東西有沒有被竊取過?或是長期來你們就會被竊取你們不知道啊\n報告委員我們清查的過程是沒有發現有清查過嗎最原始的資料就剛才提到5月17日到24日之間我們相關的資料有這個整個平台有那是人流的平台嘛人流數據的平台嘛我現在講的是最原始的數據最原本的data你們有確認過了嗎這個資料我們有可能\n大家都在講國家機器嘛有沒有可能某個單位長期來就是沒有經過你們的同意去調取去竊取你們的資料報告委員不可能發生這樣的事情我們會定期做這個治安相關的防護的檢查所以如果有任何這個異常的行為都會被我們發現所以你們確認你們最原始的資料以及你們整理過的人流資料在\n長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣的一個狀況所以現在目前就是一個很大的螺旋門那你們有猜想的出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎\n我們沒有這個時間去想這個目前唯一可能唯一可能的那就可能在政論頻道上面有他的說法有可能是唬爛嘛目前有這種說法嘛那剛剛也有委員問的就是說我們現在NCC也已經在調查了嘛那其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字啦寫說來賓的發言就可能\n我們來賓發言不代表本台立場我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視台嗎?還是說誰講的誰負責?\n我們還是會依照我們的若實事實查證原則並不表示說他貼在那一張文字以後就免責所以說就算是來賓如果說未來的來賓在這段節目上面有一些虛偽不實的說法那電視台應該也是要有相關的一個責任這個主持人在主持整個節目過程裡面來講的話對於這個比如說這個有涉及到可能事實查證的部分這還是要他有一個維持的義務好那我就尊重我們後續的調查那最後一點\n因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛 對不對那剛剛包括我們的吳宗憲委員還有我們的黃建浩委員都有提到我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候都會有定型化契約嘛那裡面可能就是有提到這個資料要不要提供我們會去勾選嘛 對不對\n那我想但是其實很多的民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼包括其實我個人我已經忘記我上次在簽門號的時候我勾了什麼嘛那現在既然已經變成一個是全國性的一個矚目的資安事件我們可不可以我們NCC可不可以請我們的三大\n電信業者每個人去發簡訊給每個用戶告知你這個用戶當初在個資的定期化契約你是勾哪一個選項如果我們要調整我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改這部分可不可以\n報告委員我們在個人資料提供的過程當中我們設定我們的D4是如果沒有勾就表示不同意是當然對\n好那但是我剛剛就講很多人就說這個東西大概就只是簽而已嘛大家不會去看那有時候可能也是這個服務人員引導啊就勾勾勾也有很多這樣的情形嘛對不對就是服務人員會引導嘛啊就勾勾勾那沒關係我們可不可以既然已經發生這樣的事情了很多人想要保護自己的個資\n我也沒有說一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶但是至少我們NCC或者是三大電信業者應該要有一個公開的說明如果說我們的用戶想要取消相關的電信足跡的追蹤的話我們用戶可以怎麼做\n是不是可以後續來做一個相關的聲明稿讓全國民眾人都知道來保障自己的權益就是說當事人如果對這個有疑慮來講的話比如說這個部分他事後邊跟可以退出的這個部分對三大業者要怎麼做管到是哪邊應該讓每一位用戶知道好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.517 --> 00:13.003\n好謝謝主席麻煩幫我邀請我們這個NCC的陳朱偉還有中華電信郭董事長請陳朱偉郭董事長好兩位好原則上在我們一個民主國家一個執政黨的高層在一個公正的一個政論節目中所講的話我們原則上是可以相信的嘛對不對\n\n00:31.991 --> 00:32.151\n我先確認一下\n\n01:00.089 --> 01:15.108\n在不管他們有沒有提供資料的情況下針對不同的活動去比對出席的人員有沒有重複這件事情是我們中華電信一些去識別化只給輪廓的一些數據所能夠\n\n01:16.189 --> 01:31.383\n所能夠這個調查出來的事情嗎報告委員我們功能上沒有設定因為去識別化之後你就沒辦法回溯所以沒有辦法做不同所以就算有提供這份資料應該也是沒有辦法做這樣子的判斷嗎是的是所以\n\n01:32.504 --> 02:00.226\n這份資料的來源那絕對也不應該就算它是真的的話也不會是正常的正式的管道來獲得嘛是不是應該可以這麼來理解本公司沒有提供中華電信沒有提供這樣的資料好那所以說在這樣子的情況下我們中華電信有講說我們並沒有針對清雕活動或是之前講的特別活動提供特別的訊息的資料那我想確認一下有沒有\n\n02:01.314 --> 02:26.491\n政府的單位長期以來有跟我們中華電信的記憶房來做串接也就是說我們他們沒有跟你們提出申請但是我們是在無時無刻的把我們相關的通訊的一些資料傳輸給特定的單位有沒有委員沒有沒有中華電信一切都遵照國家的法令來辦理不可能做這樣的事包括國安單位任何的單位沒有也不可能無時無刻的去串接我們的資料獲取資訊\n\n02:28.714 --> 02:41.334\n好那在假設王逸川先生講的是事實的情況下那我們目前可能我的推論就只有一個可能了嘛就是我們電信公司的系統被害了嘛才有可能有這樣子的情況嘛\n\n02:42.506 --> 03:03.655\n不然你們有想得出來其他的情況王毅先生手上拿的資料他是怎麼取得的嗎我們不清楚你不清楚嘛對不對你們不清楚那唯一的可能就是但是他就是有資料嘛唯一的可能就是我們中華電信的網路資訊或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛我們之後有沒有被駭過有沒有辦法做事後的調查\n\n03:05.510 --> 03:30.373\n報告委員,上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護的單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們燃草分析的平台從5月17日到5月14日之間,這裡面沒有任何的異常的存取或使用這個平台應該也是整理過的一個平台嗎?對不對?那原始的資料呢?\n\n03:31.380 --> 03:59.806\n有整理過了嗎?有去確認過了嗎?剛剛委員我們的這個原始的資料電信的信令資料呢都只在中華電信內部不可能這個外流剛才有報告其他委員有詢問個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事對個人資料一定是留在中華電信對你們數據分析確認沒有資料沒有沒有被盜過嗎?對那原始的最基本的資料在我們中華電信的內部嗎?是那這個東西有沒有被竊取過?或是長期來你們就會被竊取你們不知道啊\n\n04:00.806 --> 04:19.978\n報告委員我們清查的過程是沒有發現有清查過嗎最原始的資料就剛才提到5月17日到24日之間我們相關的資料有這個整個平台有那是人流的平台嘛人流數據的平台嘛我現在講的是最原始的數據最原本的data你們有確認過了嗎這個資料我們有可能\n\n04:21.311 --> 04:42.707\n大家都在講國家機器嘛有沒有可能某個單位長期來就是沒有經過你們的同意去調取去竊取你們的資料報告委員不可能發生這樣的事情我們會定期做這個治安相關的防護的檢查所以如果有任何這個異常的行為都會被我們發現所以你們確認你們最原始的資料以及你們整理過的人流資料在\n\n04:44.506 --> 04:57.534\n長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣的一個狀況所以現在目前就是一個很大的螺旋門那你們有猜想的出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎\n\n04:59.622 --> 05:22.120\n我們沒有這個時間去想這個目前唯一可能唯一可能的那就可能在政論頻道上面有他的說法有可能是唬爛嘛目前有這種說法嘛那剛剛也有委員問的就是說我們現在NCC也已經在調查了嘛那其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字啦寫說來賓的發言就可能\n\n05:26.403 --> 05:30.795\n我們來賓發言不代表本台立場我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視台嗎?還是說誰講的誰負責?\n\n05:35.346 --> 06:02.933\n我們還是會依照我們的若實事實查證原則並不表示說他貼在那一張文字以後就免責所以說就算是來賓如果說未來的來賓在這段節目上面有一些虛偽不實的說法那電視台應該也是要有相關的一個責任這個主持人在主持整個節目過程裡面來講的話對於這個比如說這個有涉及到可能事實查證的部分這還是要他有一個維持的義務好那我就尊重我們後續的調查那最後一點\n\n06:03.433 --> 06:19.243\n因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛對不對那剛剛包括我們的吳宗憲委員還有我們的黃建浩委員都有提到我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候都會有定型化契約嘛那裡面可能就是有提到這個資料要不要提供我們會去勾選嘛對不對\n\n06:20.123 --> 06:37.126\n那我想但是其實很多的民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼包括其實我個人我已經忘記我上次在簽門號的時候我勾了什麼嘛那現在既然已經變成一個是全國性的一個矚目的資安事件我們可不可以我們NCC可不可以請我們的三大\n\n06:38.343 --> 06:54.259\n電信業者每個人去發簡訊給每個用戶告知你這個用戶當初在個資的定期化契約你是勾哪一個選項如果我們要調整我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改這部分可不可以\n\n06:55.020 --> 06:57.621\n報告委員我們在個人資料提供的過程當中我們設定我們的D4是如果沒有勾就表示不同意是當然對\n\n07:20.874 --> 07:38.964\n好那但是我剛剛就講很多人就說這個東西大概就只是簽而已嘛大家不會去看那有時候可能也是這個服務人員引導啊就勾勾勾也有很多這樣的情形嘛對不對就是服務人員會引導嘛啊就勾勾勾那沒關係我們可不可以既然已經發生這樣的事情了很多人想要保護自己的個資\n\n07:40.264 --> 07:54.217\n我也沒有說一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶但是至少我們NCC或者是三大電信業者應該要有一個公開的說明如果說我們的用戶想要取消相關的電信足跡的追蹤的話我們用戶可以怎麼做\n\n07:54.978 --> 08:09.095\n是不是可以後續來做一個相關的聲明稿讓全國民眾人都知道來保障自己的權益就是說當事人如果對這個有疑慮來講的話比如說這個部分他事後邊跟可以退出的這個部分對三大業者要怎麼做管到是哪邊應該讓每一位用戶知道好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.517,"end":13.003,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩幫我邀請我們這個NCC的陳朱偉還有中華電信郭董事長請陳朱偉郭董事長好兩位好原則上在我們一個民主國家一個執政黨的高層在一個公正的一個政論節目中所講的話我們原則上是可以相信的嘛對不對"},{"start":31.991,"end":32.151,"text":"我先確認一下"},{"start":60.089,"end":75.108,"text":"在不管他們有沒有提供資料的情況下針對不同的活動去比對出席的人員有沒有重複這件事情是我們中華電信一些去識別化只給輪廓的一些數據所能夠"},{"start":76.189,"end":91.383,"text":"所能夠這個調查出來的事情嗎報告委員我們功能上沒有設定因為去識別化之後你就沒辦法回溯所以沒有辦法做不同所以就算有提供這份資料應該也是沒有辦法做這樣子的判斷嗎是的是所以"},{"start":92.504,"end":120.226,"text":"這份資料的來源那絕對也不應該就算它是真的的話也不會是正常的正式的管道來獲得嘛是不是應該可以這麼來理解本公司沒有提供中華電信沒有提供這樣的資料好那所以說在這樣子的情況下我們中華電信有講說我們並沒有針對清雕活動或是之前講的特別活動提供特別的訊息的資料那我想確認一下有沒有"},{"start":121.314,"end":146.491,"text":"政府的單位長期以來有跟我們中華電信的記憶房來做串接也就是說我們他們沒有跟你們提出申請但是我們是在無時無刻的把我們相關的通訊的一些資料傳輸給特定的單位有沒有委員沒有沒有中華電信一切都遵照國家的法令來辦理不可能做這樣的事包括國安單位任何的單位沒有也不可能無時無刻的去串接我們的資料獲取資訊"},{"start":148.714,"end":161.334,"text":"好 那在假設王逸川先生講的是事實的情況下 那我們目前可能 我的推論就只有一個可能了嘛 就是我們電信公司的系統被害了嘛 才有可能有這樣子的情況嘛"},{"start":162.506,"end":183.655,"text":"不然你們有想得出來其他的情況王毅先生手上拿的資料他是怎麼取得的嗎我們不清楚你不清楚嘛 對不對你們不清楚那唯一的可能就是但是他就是有資料嘛唯一的可能就是我們中華電信的網路資訊或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛我們之後有沒有被駭過有沒有辦法做事後的調查"},{"start":185.51,"end":210.373,"text":"報告委員,上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護的單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們燃草分析的平台從5月17日到5月14日之間,這裡面沒有任何的異常的存取或使用這個平台應該也是整理過的一個平台嗎?對不對?那原始的資料呢?"},{"start":211.38,"end":239.806,"text":"有整理過了嗎?有去確認過了嗎?剛剛委員我們的這個原始的資料電信的信令資料呢都只在中華電信內部不可能這個外流剛才有報告其他委員有詢問個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事對個人資料一定是留在中華電信對你們數據分析確認沒有資料沒有沒有被盜過嗎?對那原始的最基本的資料在我們中華電信的內部嗎?是那這個東西有沒有被竊取過?或是長期來你們就會被竊取你們不知道啊"},{"start":240.806,"end":259.978,"text":"報告委員我們清查的過程是沒有發現有清查過嗎最原始的資料就剛才提到5月17日到24日之間我們相關的資料有這個整個平台有那是人流的平台嘛人流數據的平台嘛我現在講的是最原始的數據最原本的data你們有確認過了嗎這個資料我們有可能"},{"start":261.311,"end":282.707,"text":"大家都在講國家機器嘛有沒有可能某個單位長期來就是沒有經過你們的同意去調取去竊取你們的資料報告委員不可能發生這樣的事情我們會定期做這個治安相關的防護的檢查所以如果有任何這個異常的行為都會被我們發現所以你們確認你們最原始的資料以及你們整理過的人流資料在"},{"start":284.506,"end":297.534,"text":"長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣的一個狀況所以現在目前就是一個很大的螺旋門那你們有猜想的出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎"},{"start":299.622,"end":322.12,"text":"我們沒有這個時間去想這個目前唯一可能唯一可能的那就可能在政論頻道上面有他的說法有可能是唬爛嘛目前有這種說法嘛那剛剛也有委員問的就是說我們現在NCC也已經在調查了嘛那其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字啦寫說來賓的發言就可能"},{"start":326.403,"end":330.795,"text":"我們來賓發言不代表本台立場我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視台嗎?還是說誰講的誰負責?"},{"start":335.346,"end":362.933,"text":"我們還是會依照我們的若實事實查證原則並不表示說他貼在那一張文字以後就免責所以說就算是來賓如果說未來的來賓在這段節目上面有一些虛偽不實的說法那電視台應該也是要有相關的一個責任這個主持人在主持整個節目過程裡面來講的話對於這個比如說這個有涉及到可能事實查證的部分這還是要他有一個維持的義務好那我就尊重我們後續的調查那最後一點"},{"start":363.433,"end":379.243,"text":"因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛 對不對那剛剛包括我們的吳宗憲委員還有我們的黃建浩委員都有提到我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候都會有定型化契約嘛那裡面可能就是有提到這個資料要不要提供我們會去勾選嘛 對不對"},{"start":380.123,"end":397.126,"text":"那我想但是其實很多的民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼包括其實我個人我已經忘記我上次在簽門號的時候我勾了什麼嘛那現在既然已經變成一個是全國性的一個矚目的資安事件我們可不可以我們NCC可不可以請我們的三大"},{"start":398.343,"end":414.259,"text":"電信業者每個人去發簡訊給每個用戶告知你這個用戶當初在個資的定期化契約你是勾哪一個選項如果我們要調整我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改這部分可不可以"},{"start":415.02,"end":417.621,"text":"報告委員我們在個人資料提供的過程當中我們設定我們的D4是如果沒有勾就表示不同意是當然對"},{"start":440.874,"end":458.964,"text":"好那但是我剛剛就講很多人就說這個東西大概就只是簽而已嘛大家不會去看那有時候可能也是這個服務人員引導啊就勾勾勾也有很多這樣的情形嘛對不對就是服務人員會引導嘛啊就勾勾勾那沒關係我們可不可以既然已經發生這樣的事情了很多人想要保護自己的個資"},{"start":460.264,"end":474.217,"text":"我也沒有說一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶但是至少我們NCC或者是三大電信業者應該要有一個公開的說明如果說我們的用戶想要取消相關的電信足跡的追蹤的話我們用戶可以怎麼做"},{"start":474.978,"end":489.095,"text":"是不是可以後續來做一個相關的聲明稿讓全國民眾人都知道來保障自己的權益就是說當事人如果對這個有疑慮來講的話比如說這個部分他事後邊跟可以退出的這個部分對三大業者要怎麼做管到是哪邊應該讓每一位用戶知道好謝謝"}]}}}}