{"id":153472,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153472","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707e1e641124385b82759c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be2e705b7cd2fed71c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"13:30:52 - 13:44:34","影片長度":"00:13:42","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T13:30:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T13:44:34+08:00","duration":822,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1650,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時30分）謝謝主席，是不是麻煩有請通傳會陳主委，以及中華電信的郭董事長？"],["主席：請陳主委、請郭董事長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好、董事長好。主委，我先針對我上一次提出來的問題繼續往下追，因為前面有一個NCC主委蕭祈宏，他淪為詐團的門神，這件事情人神共憤，我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：上一次我說，針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用，我問你NCC有沒有行政裁處，你說要等到檢察官偵查結束，你要進行行政調查才會裁處，相信主委應該還記得吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們已經有裁處，有相關的案件。"],["黃委員國昌：2024年1月起訴了，從我上次詢問到現在也經過一段時間，現在裁處的結果是什麼？針對飛速移動、台灣卓一、二十五電訊。什麼時候裁處的？裁處的結果是什麼？因為我一直在查NCC相關的委員會議、新聞稿，我都沒找到，現在裁處的結果是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們裁處的是海峽電信還有……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，那個是之前另外一個案，是去年的案子，那早就處理完了啦！我上次在問你的，就是針對蕭祈宏擔任顧問的事，包括飛速移動、台灣卓一、二十五電訊。我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了，你說你要時間嘛！現在裁處的結果是什麼？"],["黃副處長天陽：跟委員報告，因為卓一電訊或二十五電訊是檢察官在偵辦的案子……"],["黃委員國昌：它起訴了啊！"],["黃副處長天陽：對，我理解，我是說，因為它有一些技術的東西，我們還在釐清……"],["黃委員國昌：所以還沒有裁處嗎？"],["黃副處長天陽：這個部分還沒，因為還是要……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有裁處就沒有裁處，浪費這麼多時間，主委，你還需要多久？"],["蔡處長國棟：跟委員報告，二十五電訊跟台灣卓一並非電信事業，二十五電訊提供的服務並……因為下面的資訊是黑莓卡，二十五電訊提供的是黑莓卡，並非提供電信服務。"],["黃委員國昌：所以變成是說，這些都不屬於NCC裁處的範圍嗎？"],["蔡處長國棟：目前為止，我們看到的訊息，二十五電訊和台灣卓一是如此。"],["黃委員國昌：你們那個行政調查報告還要多久？"],["蔡處長國棟：我們看過起訴書上面的訊息，到目前為止二十五電訊現在已經來……終止服務，跟我們廢止他們的電信服務……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，這不是我的問題，你有兩種可能的答案。第一個，我沒有要做行政調查，這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛！主委上次跟我說的是，你要做行政調查嘛！我現在的問題很具體，行政調查什麼時候會出來？"],["蔡處長國棟：我們現在所瞭解的資料是，台灣卓一它並不是電……它並沒有提供電信服務，所以它不是電信事業，如果說調查完，應該是目前這樣的一個情形。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎？請主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個行政調查來講，比如說除這兩家還有沒有其他的，像黑莓卡跟比特幣這個部分，這個會涉及到相關的法律是什麼，我們要……比如說是刑法還是行政法……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你有沒有要做行政調查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這還是在處理當中啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以還要處理多久？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，要看處理什麼事情，如果說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，我請主委再回去看一下我們上次詢答的內容。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，在我們打詐四法裡面，針對黑莓……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我不是在講打詐四法，這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查？"],["蔡處長國棟：跟委員報告，我們現在已經針對二十五電訊去調查過，它提供的服務……"],["黃委員國昌：請問調查報告什麼時候可以做出來？"],["蔡處長國棟：我們目前並沒有發現二十五電訊在這件事情上有違反電光法上的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：所以它被起訴了，但是沒有違法？是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，它起訴所違反的是刑法的相關規定，以行政調查來講，我們只是說，我們當時調查……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，如果你今天行政調查的結果是它沒有違反相關的法令，那也是一個調查的結論嘛！我的意思是……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是說，沒有違反電信管理法……"],["黃委員國昌：我不要聽你們講了，白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來？還需要多久？你說現在調查完了，等一下回去可能就可以寫行政調查報告了嘛！你的行政調查報告經不經得起檢驗再來講嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們一個月內給委員。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月內喔！行政調查報告順便說明一下，檢察官上面所點出來的事實。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，OK。"],["黃委員國昌：蕭祈宏協助二十五電訊公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司的人員接洽，是跟誰接洽？接洽什麼事情？要在行政調查報告當中一併說明，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以，我們正本已經……"],["黃委員國昌：好，請中華電信董事長。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去瞭解？這個詐騙的門神蕭祈宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫？"],["郭董事長水義：本人有瞭解，有跟主管聯繫，但後面我們都沒有進行任何合作。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，他跟誰聯繫、聯繫的事項是什麼，中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明？可以嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：我們會後提供。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！針對大家今天很關心的事情，也就是涉及到在不同的時間跟空間，使用這一些電信的使用人，不管是不是有去識別化，因為你即使有去識別化，如果有ID做連結，還是要回溯才能做比對嘛！我想這個基本的common sense大家都有。","來，請中華電信董事長。我5月29號的時候，我發函給中華電信說我要跟你們購買，2024年5月19號在北平東路的大型集會，2024年5月24號臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路的大型集會，在你們產品裡面，人潮客群分析的這個產品，請問針對這兩場集會，中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：從來都沒有做過？如果我今天要跟你們買，你們會出售嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有的話就無從出售。第二……"],["黃委員國昌：你們可以回去做啊！"],["郭董事長水義：第二，我們公司基本上基於行政中立、政治中立的立場，還有在政策上我們不承接政黨還有涉及到選舉，或者是有……"],["黃委員國昌：所以政黨沒有、選舉沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：那我就進一步具體地請教，因為你們講得很清楚了，你東西都沒有提供給王義川，我們辜且相信，但我現在要進一步地問，不管是在北平東路的519，還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候，週遭所聚集的人群，到目前為止，中華電信從來沒有做過人群、客群分析？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：從來沒有做過嘛！第二個，今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話，你們也不會出售？"],["郭董事長水義：我們拒絕提供這方面的服務。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們拒絕提供這方面的服務。我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題，中華電信裡面在過去這段時間當中，被媒體披露有非常多的綠友友，當然，他們是按照自己的專業還是按照政治關係到中華電信去任職，我相信這個社會會公評。我現在具體的問題是，從2018年以後到現在，中華電信有沒有針對，譬如說像選舉的時候的選前之夜，這一種人群的聚集做過任何的分析？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有，報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：從來都沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：從來都沒有，所以從2018年到現在，如果有人手上拿到針對這一個客群進行分析……因為今天董事長說，中華電信從來沒做過嘛！"],["郭董事長水義：就我的瞭解，沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：如果有人手上有這樣子的人群、客群分析，他一定是偷偷的、非法的使用你們的data去進行分析，我這樣子的理解對嗎？因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛！"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["黃委員國昌：就正常的管道、公開的，從來沒做過嘛！現在大家在質疑的是什麼？有沒有私底下用這個data去做分析！所以我的問題很簡單，中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人，中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析，我的理解沒有錯吧！"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["黃委員國昌：如果有人手上拿到這個東西，一定是非法使用，對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！你說你沒有提供這方面的資料，我姑且信之，但我的意思就是如果有人手上有的話，那一定是非法使用，對不對？中華電信要有個立場，你們沒有做過這個事啊！如果有人背著中華電信的高層，董總不知道，私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情，中華電信絕不容許，一定是非法的，追究法律責任到底！董事長可不可以展現這個態度？"],["郭董事長水義：如果有剛才委員所提的相關個案，我們一定會查明議處究責。"],["黃委員國昌：好。最後，請主委，不好意思！再1分鐘就好。依照個人資料保護法第二十二條的規定，中央目的事業主管機關或者是地方政府為了要確保有關於個人資料保護，認為有必要的話，是不是可以進行行政調查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以，我們叫稽查。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！依照個人資料保護法第二十二條第一項、第二項的規定，它可以做什麼？它可以進入那個場所，它可以檢查或者是處分，它可以要求你提出資料，還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製，這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限，主委，我的理解應該沒有錯吧！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，我們基本上是用稽查的手段去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，到目前為止，你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請同仁跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請。"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，其實我們非常重視個資，NCC成立以來，至少我瞭解108年就開始每一年都要求做個資……"],["黃委員國昌：108年開始……"],["黃副處長天陽：就開始有做……"],["黃委員國昌：每一年通通都有檢查嘛！"],["黃副處長天陽：都有，對，舉例來說，去年大概在7、8月完成，今年我們也排定在8、9月陸陸續續要去看業者有沒有落實它的個資維護計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：我先確定一下，你們從108年就有做行政檢查，到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前為止來講的話，個人資料維護的部分，並沒有相關的裁處，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：我就簡單講違反第二十二條的法律效果是什麼，如果你拒絕配合調查的話，中央目的事業主管機關可以罰多少錢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前來講，沒有電信事業拒絕調查過。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我說依照法律效果來講，可以罰多少錢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就2萬元到20萬元以下罰鍰。"],["黃委員國昌：2萬以上20萬以下嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對。"],["黃委員國昌：還有第二十五條的各項處分嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後一個最關鍵的問題，請中華電信董事長，還有NCC主委，一併回答最後的問題。剛剛NCC說了，從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對個資進行行政檢查，這個行政檢查的檢查報告，NCC可不可以提供？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們回去提供，把它整理一下。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？每一年，從你們開始做到現在，每一年的行政檢查報告可不可以提供？"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下，因為我剛才講108年是我的認知，我回去再確定，我們倒過來，譬如從112年、111年……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛！"],["黃副處長天陽：好，是不是可以給我們三個禮拜……"],["黃委員國昌：看你做幾年，所有的行政檢查報告都交出來，可以嗎？"],["黃副處長天陽：好，一個月。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們一個月裡面整理給委員這邊來看。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月太久了啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：剛剛講三個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：三個禮拜，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？可以，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的發言。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢；委員鍾佳濱、張智倫所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報；委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請列席相關部會及中華電信儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","張智倫"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"153472","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153472","tool":"pyannote","id":"153472-pyannote"},"job_id":"SOBZJIeCGZSFUeSL","queued_at":"2024-06-03 14:28:27","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-03 14:28:27","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153472"},{"time":"2024-06-03 14:28:28","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707e1e641124385b82759c493b59145da8fe95a6641c58d016c3ca1aa3cb4c11c7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-06-03 14:29:02","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-06-03 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\"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 808.727, \"end\": 808.847, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 808.847, \"end\": 809.027, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 809.027, \"end\": 809.228, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 809.228, \"end\": 809.488, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 809.488, \"end\": 809.728, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 809.728, \"end\": 809.849, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 809.849, \"end\": 810.149, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 810.149, \"end\": 810.289, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 810.289, \"end\": 810.309, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,372 --> 00:00:21,475\n謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請通傳會陳朱瑞以及中華電信的郭董事長請陳朱瑞請郭董事長委員好委員好\n\n2\n00:00:23,107 --> 00:00:38,994\n主委好董事長主委我先針對我上一次提出來的問題繼續往下追因為前面有個NCC主委蕭啟宏他聯合詐團的本事這件事情人神共憤我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明\n\n3\n00:00:42,293 --> 00:01:01,083\n上一次我說針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用我問你說NCC有沒有行政裁處你說要等到檢察官偵查結束你要進行行政調查才會裁處我相信應該主委還記得吧我們已經有裁處相關案件\n\n4\n00:01:02,174 --> 00:01:25,592\n來那2024年1月起訴了嘛那從我上次詢問到現在也經過一段時間現在採取的結果是什麼?針對飛速移動台灣卓域跟25電信那個平台處什麼時候採取的?採取的結果是什麼?因為我一直在查NCCR相關的委員會議新聞稿我都沒找到\n\n5\n00:01:27,237 --> 00:01:49,379\n現在採取的結果是什麼我們採取的是海峽電信還有那個那個是之前另外一個案子去年的案子啊早就處理完了啊我上次在問你的就是針對這個蕭啟宏擔任顧問這個飛速移動台灣卓越跟25電信嘛我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了你說你要時間嘛那現在採取的結果是什麼是\n\n6\n00:01:49,599 --> 00:01:49,919\n還需要多久?還需要多久?\n\n7\n00:02:19,127 --> 00:02:46,659\n跟委員報告二五電訊跟台灣卓伊他並非電信事業那二五電訊他提供的服務並因為下面的這個資訊是黑莓卡那二五電訊他並沒有是提供這種黑莓他提供的是黑莓卡並會提供電信服務所以變成的是說這都不是屬於NCC採取的範圍是嗎目前為止我們看到的訊息二五電訊跟台灣卓伊是如此你們那個行政調查報告還要多久\n\n8\n00:02:48,001 --> 00:03:11,401\n我們看過這個起訴書上面的這個訊息目前的為止是二五電訊他現在已經來中止跟我們匯值他的電信服務的重點對不起這不是我的問題啊你有兩種可能的答案第一個我沒有要做行政調查但這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛主委上次跟我說你要做行政調查嘛那我現在的問題很具體行政調查什麼時候會出來\n\n9\n00:03:13,410 --> 00:03:42,470\n我們現在所了解的資料就是臺灣卓伊他並不是他沒有提供電信服務所以他不是電信事業所以在如果說調查完應該是目前這樣的一個情形所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎請數位這個行政調查來講是說比如說這兩家還有沒有其他的比如說像黑美卡跟比特幣這個部分那這會涉及到相關的法律是什麼那我們要比如說是所以你有沒有要做行政調查沒有沒有這還是在處理當中所以還要處理多久\n\n10\n00:03:43,490 --> 00:04:07,025\n不是,要看處理什麼事情如果說比如說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話沒有啦,我請主委齁,再回去看一下我們上次詢答的那個有有,我們打詐司法裡面來講的話,比如針對黑命貓現在我不是在講打詐司法,這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查跟委員報告,我們現在已經針對二五電信去調查過他提供的服務行政調查報告什麼時候可以做出來\n\n11\n00:04:08,462 --> 00:04:37,363\n我們目前並沒有發現二五電訊在這一件事情上有違反我們電網法上面的規定所以他被起訴了但是沒有違法是這樣嗎沒有沒有他起訴違法但是違反相關的刑法的規定嘛那行政調查來講的話只是說我們當時有調查沒有關係嘛如果你今天行政調查的結果是他沒有違反相關的法律那也是一個調查的結論嘛那我的意思就是我現在不要聽你們講的白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來\n\n12\n00:04:38,806 --> 00:04:57,440\n還需要多久?你說現在調查完了那你等一下可能回去就可以寫行政調查報告嗎?那你的行政調查報告經不經典型檢驗站來講嗎?我們一個月內給委員這邊一個月內齁好行政調查報告齁順便說明一下檢察官上面所點出來的事情齁蕭啟宏他協助\n\n13\n00:05:01,107 --> 00:05:26,799\n二五電信公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司人員接洽。跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?在行政調查報告當中一併說明可以嗎?好來請中華電信董事長。中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去了解這一個詐騙的門神蕭啟宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫?\n\n14\n00:05:30,970 --> 00:05:33,733\n沒關係齁他跟誰聯繫聯繫的事項是什麼中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明\n\n15\n00:05:47,292 --> 00:06:01,531\n可以嗎?可以嘛,好那針對大家今天很關心的事情也就是說涉及到在不同的時間跟空間使用這一些電信使用人\n\n16\n00:06:02,592 --> 00:06:21,202\n不管是不是有去識別話因為你即使有去識別話如果有ID做連結還是要回溯才能做比對嘛我想這個基本的commentary大家都有來請中華電信董事長5月19號的時候我發函給中華電信所以我要跟你們購買2024年5月19號在\n\n17\n00:06:27,642 --> 00:06:56,583\n北平東路的大型集會2024年5月24日臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路大型集會你們產品裡面的人潮客群分析的這個產品那請問針對這兩場集會中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析我們沒有從來就沒有做過好那如果我今天要跟你們買你們會出售嗎我們沒有的話就無從出售第二你們可以回去做啊\n\n18\n00:06:57,202 --> 00:07:24,499\n第二這個我們公司基本上基於這個行政中立政治中立的一個立場還有在政策上我們不承接這個政黨還有這個涉及到包括選舉或者是有所以政黨沒有選舉沒有好那我就進一步要具體的請教就是說因為你們講得很清楚了啦你東西都沒有提供給王玉川嘛我們姑且相信\n\n19\n00:07:25,259 --> 00:07:45,578\n我們姑且相信但我現在要進一步的問是說不管是在北平東路的519還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候周遭所聚集的人群到目前為止中華電信從來沒有做過人群客氣分析我們沒有從來沒有做過嘛那第二個\n\n20\n00:07:47,045 --> 00:08:16,238\n今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話你們也不會出手我們拒絕提供這方面的服務你們拒絕提供這方面的服務那我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題就是說中華電信裡面過去這段時間當中被媒體披露有非常多的綠油友有非常多的綠油友當然他們是按照自己的專業還是按照\n\n21\n00:08:17,540 --> 00:08:39,560\n政治關係到中華電信去任職我相信這社會會公平我現在具體的問題是從2018年以後到現在中華電信有沒有針對譬如說像選舉的時候選前之夜這種人群的聚集做過任何的分析\n\n22\n00:08:40,205 --> 00:08:41,467\n從2018年到現在如果有人手上拿到\n\n23\n00:08:53,897 --> 00:09:12,084\n針對這一個客群進行分析因為今天董事長說中華電信從來沒做過嘛就我的了解沒有如果有人手上有這樣子的人群客群分析他一定是偷偷的非法的使用你們的data去進行分析我這樣子的理解對嗎\n\n24\n00:09:15,677 --> 00:09:25,095\n因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛就正常的管道公開的從來沒做過嘛現在大家在質疑的是什麼有沒有私底下\n\n25\n00:09:26,229 --> 00:09:47,932\n用這個data去做私底下的分析所以我的問題很簡單中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析我的理解沒有錯吧如果有人手上拿到這個東西一定是非法使用對不對\n\n26\n00:09:50,078 --> 00:10:01,080\n我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料對啦你說你沒有提供這方面的資料我姑且信之嘛但我的意思就是說如果有人手上有的話那一定是非法使用對不對\n\n27\n00:10:02,489 --> 00:10:31,849\n中華電信要有個立場啊我們沒有做過這個事啊如果有人背著中華電信的高層董總不知道私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情中華電信絕不容許一定是非法的追究法律責任到底董事長可以展現這個態度這個如果有這個剛才委員所提的相關的個案我們一定會查明役處究責好下一個來最後請主委不好意思再一分鐘就好\n\n28\n00:10:32,949 --> 00:10:49,894\n依照個人資料保護法22條的規定中央目的主管機關或是其實地方政府他為了要去確保有關於個人資料保護認為有必要的話是不是可以進行行政調查如果依照個人資料保護法22條的規定如果對於\n\n29\n00:10:55,307 --> 00:11:19,732\n本法所規定第一項第二項他可以做什麼他可以進入那個場所他可以檢查或者是處分喔他可以要求你提出資料喔還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧主委是我們基本上是用機場的手段去處理好\n\n30\n00:11:20,612 --> 00:11:39,042\n到目前為止,你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查?報告委員,其實我們非常重視個資,NCC成立以後至少我了解108年就開始每一年都要求\n\n31\n00:11:40,103 --> 00:12:01,263\n108年開始每一年通通都有檢查舉例來說像去年大概在七八月完成那我們今年也排定在八九月也陸陸續續也要去進行看業者有沒有落實他的個資委員會計畫我先確定一下啦你們從108年就有做行政檢查到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況對不對\n\n32\n00:12:02,964 --> 00:12:05,646\n所以我說依照法律效果來講可以罰多少錢?\n\n33\n00:12:31,259 --> 00:12:56,594\n2萬元到20萬元以下2萬以上20萬以下還有第25條的各項處分最後一個最關鍵的問題來請中華電信董事長還有NCC主委一併回答最後的問題剛剛NCC說了從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對各支進行行政檢查這個行政檢查的檢查報告NCC可不可以提供\n\n34\n00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:27,546\n需要多久每一年喔從你們開始做到現在喔每一年的行政檢查的報告可不可以提供報告委員我們大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下因為我剛才108年是我任職啦那我回去再確定我們倒過來從比如說從2011年我們回去沒有關係啊你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛看你做幾年所有的行政檢查報告都交出來可以嗎\n\n35\n00:13:28,727 --> 00:13:30,309\n我們要一個月裡面來整理給委員這邊來看\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4372\t21475\t謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請通傳會陳朱瑞以及中華電信的郭董事長請陳朱瑞請郭董事長委員好委員好\n23107\t38994\t主委好 董事長主委我先針對我上一次提出來的問題繼續往下追因為前面有個NCC主委 蕭啟宏他聯合詐團的本事這件事情人神共憤我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明\n42293\t61083\t上一次我說針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用我問你說NCC有沒有行政裁處你說要等到檢察官偵查結束你要進行行政調查才會裁處我相信應該主委還記得吧我們已經有裁處相關案件\n62174\t85592\t來那2024年1月起訴了嘛那從我上次詢問到現在也經過一段時間現在採取的結果是什麼?針對飛速移動台灣卓域跟25電信那個平台處什麼時候採取的?採取的結果是什麼?因為我一直在查NCCR相關的委員會議新聞稿我都沒找到\n87237\t109379\t現在採取的結果是什麼我們採取的是海峽電信還有那個那個是之前另外一個案子去年的案子啊早就處理完了啊我上次在問你的就是針對這個蕭啟宏擔任顧問這個飛速移動台灣卓越跟25電信嘛我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了你說你要時間嘛那現在採取的結果是什麼是\n109599\t109919\t還需要多久?還需要多久?\n139127\t166659\t跟委員報告二五電訊跟台灣卓伊他並非電信事業那二五電訊他提供的服務並因為下面的這個資訊是黑莓卡那二五電訊他並沒有是提供這種黑莓他提供的是黑莓卡並會提供電信服務所以變成的是說這都不是屬於NCC採取的範圍是嗎目前為止我們看到的訊息二五電訊跟台灣卓伊是如此你們那個行政調查報告還要多久\n168001\t191401\t我們看過這個起訴書上面的這個訊息目前的為止是二五電訊他現在已經來中止跟我們匯值他的電信服務的重點對不起這不是我的問題啊你有兩種可能的答案第一個我沒有要做行政調查但這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛主委上次跟我說你要做行政調查嘛那我現在的問題很具體行政調查什麼時候會出來\n193410\t222470\t我們現在所了解的資料就是臺灣卓伊他並不是他沒有提供電信服務所以他不是電信事業所以在如果說調查完應該是目前這樣的一個情形所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎請數位這個行政調查來講是說比如說這兩家還有沒有其他的比如說像黑美卡跟比特幣這個部分那這會涉及到相關的法律是什麼那我們要比如說是所以你有沒有要做行政調查沒有沒有這還是在處理當中所以還要處理多久\n223490\t247025\t不是,要看處理什麼事情如果說比如說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話沒有啦,我請主委齁,再回去看一下我們上次詢答的那個有有,我們打詐司法裡面來講的話,比如針對黑命貓現在我不是在講打詐司法,這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查跟委員報告,我們現在已經針對二五電信去調查過他提供的服務行政調查報告什麼時候可以做出來\n248462\t277363\t我們目前並沒有發現二五電訊在這一件事情上有違反我們電網法上面的規定所以他被起訴了但是沒有違法是這樣嗎沒有沒有他起訴違法但是違反相關的刑法的規定嘛那行政調查來講的話只是說我們當時有調查沒有關係嘛如果你今天行政調查的結果是他沒有違反相關的法律那也是一個調查的結論嘛那我的意思就是我現在不要聽你們講的白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來\n278806\t297440\t還需要多久?你說現在調查完了那你等一下可能回去就可以寫行政調查報告嗎?那你的行政調查報告經不經典型檢驗站來講嗎?我們一個月內給委員這邊一個月內齁好行政調查報告齁順便說明一下檢察官上面所點出來的事情齁蕭啟宏他協助\n301107\t326799\t二五電信公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司人員接洽。跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?在行政調查報告當中一併說明可以嗎?好來請中華電信董事長。中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去了解這一個詐騙的門神蕭啟宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫?\n330970\t333733\t沒關係齁他跟誰聯繫聯繫的事項是什麼中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明\n347292\t361531\t可以嗎?可以嘛,好那針對大家今天很關心的事情也就是說涉及到在不同的時間跟空間使用這一些電信使用人\n362592\t381202\t不管是不是有去識別話因為你即使有去識別話 如果有ID做連結還是要回溯才能做比對嘛我想這個基本的commentary大家都有來請中華電信董事長5月19號的時候我發函給中華電信所以我要跟你們購買2024年5月19號在\n387642\t416583\t北平東路的大型集會2024年5月24日臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路大型集會你們產品裡面的人潮客群分析的這個產品那請問針對這兩場集會中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析我們沒有從來就沒有做過好那如果我今天要跟你們買你們會出售嗎我們沒有的話就無從出售第二你們可以回去做啊\n417202\t444499\t第二 這個我們公司基本上基於這個行政中立政治中立的一個立場還有在政策上我們不承接這個政黨還有這個涉及到包括選舉或者是有所以政黨沒有選舉沒有好 那我就進一步要具體的請教就是說因為你們講得很清楚了啦你東西都沒有提供給王玉川嘛我們姑且相信\n445259\t465578\t我們姑且相信但我現在要進一步的問是說不管是在北平東路的519還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候周遭所聚集的人群到目前為止中華電信從來沒有做過人群客氣分析我們沒有從來沒有做過嘛那第二個\n467045\t496238\t今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話你們也不會出手我們拒絕提供這方面的服務你們拒絕提供這方面的服務那我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題就是說中華電信裡面過去這段時間當中被媒體披露有非常多的綠油友有非常多的綠油友當然他們是按照自己的專業還是按照\n497540\t519560\t政治關係到中華電信去任職我相信這社會會公平我現在具體的問題是從2018年以後到現在中華電信有沒有針對譬如說像選舉的時候選前之夜這種人群的聚集做過任何的分析\n520205\t521467\t從2018年到現在如果有人手上拿到\n533897\t552084\t針對這一個客群進行分析因為今天董事長說中華電信從來沒做過嘛就我的了解沒有如果有人手上有這樣子的人群客群分析他一定是偷偷的非法的使用你們的data去進行分析我這樣子的理解對嗎\n555677\t565095\t因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛就正常的管道公開的從來沒做過嘛現在大家在質疑的是什麼有沒有私底下\n566229\t587932\t用這個data去做私底下的分析所以我的問題很簡單中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析我的理解沒有錯吧如果有人手上拿到這個東西一定是非法使用對不對\n590078\t601080\t我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料對啦你說你沒有提供這方面的資料我姑且信之嘛但我的意思就是說如果有人手上有的話那一定是非法使用對不對\n602489\t631849\t中華電信要有個立場啊我們沒有做過這個事啊如果有人背著中華電信的高層董總不知道私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情中華電信絕不容許一定是非法的追究法律責任到底董事長可以展現這個態度這個如果有這個剛才委員所提的相關的個案我們一定會查明役處究責好下一個來最後請主委不好意思再一分鐘就好\n632949\t649894\t依照個人資料保護法22條的規定中央目的主管機關或是其實地方政府他為了要去確保有關於個人資料保護認為有必要的話是不是可以進行行政調查如果依照個人資料保護法22條的規定如果對於\n655307\t679732\t本法所規定第一項第二項他可以做什麼他可以進入那個場所他可以檢查或者是處分喔他可以要求你提出資料喔還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧主委是我們基本上是用機場的手段去處理好\n680612\t699042\t到目前為止,你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查?報告委員,其實我們非常重視個資,NCC成立以後至少我了解108年就開始每一年都要求\n700103\t721263\t108年開始每一年通通都有檢查舉例來說像去年大概在七八月完成那我們今年也排定在八九月也陸陸續續也要去進行看業者有沒有落實他的個資委員會計畫我先確定一下啦你們從108年就有做行政檢查到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況對不對\n722964\t725646\t所以我說依照法律效果來講可以罰多少錢?\n751259\t776594\t2萬元到20萬元以下 2萬以上20萬以下還有第25條的各項處分最後一個最關鍵的問題來請中華電信董事長還有NCC主委一併回答最後的問題剛剛NCC說了從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對各支進行行政檢查這個行政檢查的檢查報告NCC可不可以提供\n780120\t807546\t需要多久每一年喔從你們開始做到現在喔每一年的行政檢查的報告可不可以提供報告委員我們大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下因為我剛才108年是我任職啦那我回去再確定我們倒過來從比如說從2011年我們回去沒有關係啊你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛看你做幾年所有的行政檢查報告都交出來可以嗎\n808727\t810309\t我們要一個月裡面來整理給委員這邊來看\n","txt":"謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請通傳會陳朱瑞以及中華電信的郭董事長請陳朱瑞請郭董事長委員好委員好\n主委好 董事長主委我先針對我上一次提出來的問題繼續往下追因為前面有個NCC主委 蕭啟宏他聯合詐團的本事這件事情人神共憤我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明\n上一次我說針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用我問你說NCC有沒有行政裁處你說要等到檢察官偵查結束你要進行行政調查才會裁處我相信應該主委還記得吧我們已經有裁處相關案件\n來那2024年1月起訴了嘛那從我上次詢問到現在也經過一段時間現在採取的結果是什麼?針對飛速移動台灣卓域跟25電信那個平台處什麼時候採取的?採取的結果是什麼?因為我一直在查NCCR相關的委員會議新聞稿我都沒找到\n現在採取的結果是什麼我們採取的是海峽電信還有那個那個是之前另外一個案子去年的案子啊早就處理完了啊我上次在問你的就是針對這個蕭啟宏擔任顧問這個飛速移動台灣卓越跟25電信嘛我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了你說你要時間嘛那現在採取的結果是什麼是\n還需要多久?還需要多久?\n跟委員報告二五電訊跟台灣卓伊他並非電信事業那二五電訊他提供的服務並因為下面的這個資訊是黑莓卡那二五電訊他並沒有是提供這種黑莓他提供的是黑莓卡並會提供電信服務所以變成的是說這都不是屬於NCC採取的範圍是嗎目前為止我們看到的訊息二五電訊跟台灣卓伊是如此你們那個行政調查報告還要多久\n我們看過這個起訴書上面的這個訊息目前的為止是二五電訊他現在已經來中止跟我們匯值他的電信服務的重點對不起這不是我的問題啊你有兩種可能的答案第一個我沒有要做行政調查但這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛主委上次跟我說你要做行政調查嘛那我現在的問題很具體行政調查什麼時候會出來\n我們現在所了解的資料就是臺灣卓伊他並不是他沒有提供電信服務所以他不是電信事業所以在如果說調查完應該是目前這樣的一個情形所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎請數位這個行政調查來講是說比如說這兩家還有沒有其他的比如說像黑美卡跟比特幣這個部分那這會涉及到相關的法律是什麼那我們要比如說是所以你有沒有要做行政調查沒有沒有這還是在處理當中所以還要處理多久\n不是,要看處理什麼事情如果說比如說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話沒有啦,我請主委齁,再回去看一下我們上次詢答的那個有有,我們打詐司法裡面來講的話,比如針對黑命貓現在我不是在講打詐司法,這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查跟委員報告,我們現在已經針對二五電信去調查過他提供的服務行政調查報告什麼時候可以做出來\n我們目前並沒有發現二五電訊在這一件事情上有違反我們電網法上面的規定所以他被起訴了但是沒有違法是這樣嗎沒有沒有他起訴違法但是違反相關的刑法的規定嘛那行政調查來講的話只是說我們當時有調查沒有關係嘛如果你今天行政調查的結果是他沒有違反相關的法律那也是一個調查的結論嘛那我的意思就是我現在不要聽你們講的白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來\n還需要多久?你說現在調查完了那你等一下可能回去就可以寫行政調查報告嗎?那你的行政調查報告經不經典型檢驗站來講嗎?我們一個月內給委員這邊一個月內齁好行政調查報告齁順便說明一下檢察官上面所點出來的事情齁蕭啟宏他協助\n二五電信公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司人員接洽。跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?在行政調查報告當中一併說明可以嗎?好來請中華電信董事長。中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去了解這一個詐騙的門神蕭啟宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫?\n沒關係齁他跟誰聯繫聯繫的事項是什麼中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明\n可以嗎?可以嘛,好那針對大家今天很關心的事情也就是說涉及到在不同的時間跟空間使用這一些電信使用人\n不管是不是有去識別話因為你即使有去識別話 如果有ID做連結還是要回溯才能做比對嘛我想這個基本的commentary大家都有來請中華電信董事長5月19號的時候我發函給中華電信所以我要跟你們購買2024年5月19號在\n北平東路的大型集會2024年5月24日臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路大型集會你們產品裡面的人潮客群分析的這個產品那請問針對這兩場集會中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析我們沒有從來就沒有做過好那如果我今天要跟你們買你們會出售嗎我們沒有的話就無從出售第二你們可以回去做啊\n第二 這個我們公司基本上基於這個行政中立政治中立的一個立場還有在政策上我們不承接這個政黨還有這個涉及到包括選舉或者是有所以政黨沒有選舉沒有好 那我就進一步要具體的請教就是說因為你們講得很清楚了啦你東西都沒有提供給王玉川嘛我們姑且相信\n我們姑且相信但我現在要進一步的問是說不管是在北平東路的519還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候周遭所聚集的人群到目前為止中華電信從來沒有做過人群客氣分析我們沒有從來沒有做過嘛那第二個\n今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話你們也不會出手我們拒絕提供這方面的服務你們拒絕提供這方面的服務那我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題就是說中華電信裡面過去這段時間當中被媒體披露有非常多的綠油友有非常多的綠油友當然他們是按照自己的專業還是按照\n政治關係到中華電信去任職我相信這社會會公平我現在具體的問題是從2018年以後到現在中華電信有沒有針對譬如說像選舉的時候選前之夜這種人群的聚集做過任何的分析\n從2018年到現在如果有人手上拿到\n針對這一個客群進行分析因為今天董事長說中華電信從來沒做過嘛就我的了解沒有如果有人手上有這樣子的人群客群分析他一定是偷偷的非法的使用你們的data去進行分析我這樣子的理解對嗎\n因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛就正常的管道公開的從來沒做過嘛現在大家在質疑的是什麼有沒有私底下\n用這個data去做私底下的分析所以我的問題很簡單中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析我的理解沒有錯吧如果有人手上拿到這個東西一定是非法使用對不對\n我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料對啦你說你沒有提供這方面的資料我姑且信之嘛但我的意思就是說如果有人手上有的話那一定是非法使用對不對\n中華電信要有個立場啊我們沒有做過這個事啊如果有人背著中華電信的高層董總不知道私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情中華電信絕不容許一定是非法的追究法律責任到底董事長可以展現這個態度這個如果有這個剛才委員所提的相關的個案我們一定會查明役處究責好下一個來最後請主委不好意思再一分鐘就好\n依照個人資料保護法22條的規定中央目的主管機關或是其實地方政府他為了要去確保有關於個人資料保護認為有必要的話是不是可以進行行政調查如果依照個人資料保護法22條的規定如果對於\n本法所規定第一項第二項他可以做什麼他可以進入那個場所他可以檢查或者是處分喔他可以要求你提出資料喔還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧主委是我們基本上是用機場的手段去處理好\n到目前為止,你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查?報告委員,其實我們非常重視個資,NCC成立以後至少我了解108年就開始每一年都要求\n108年開始每一年通通都有檢查舉例來說像去年大概在七八月完成那我們今年也排定在八九月也陸陸續續也要去進行看業者有沒有落實他的個資委員會計畫我先確定一下啦你們從108年就有做行政檢查到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況對不對\n所以我說依照法律效果來講可以罰多少錢?\n2萬元到20萬元以下 2萬以上20萬以下還有第25條的各項處分最後一個最關鍵的問題來請中華電信董事長還有NCC主委一併回答最後的問題剛剛NCC說了從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對各支進行行政檢查這個行政檢查的檢查報告NCC可不可以提供\n需要多久每一年喔從你們開始做到現在喔每一年的行政檢查的報告可不可以提供報告委員我們大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下因為我剛才108年是我任職啦那我回去再確定我們倒過來從比如說從2011年我們回去沒有關係啊你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛看你做幾年所有的行政檢查報告都交出來可以嗎\n我們要一個月裡面來整理給委員這邊來看\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.372 --> 00:21.475\n謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請通傳會陳朱瑞以及中華電信的郭董事長請陳朱瑞請郭董事長委員好委員好\n\n00:23.107 --> 00:38.994\n主委好董事長主委我先針對我上一次提出來的問題繼續往下追因為前面有個NCC主委蕭啟宏他聯合詐團的本事這件事情人神共憤我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明\n\n00:42.293 --> 01:01.083\n上一次我說針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用我問你說NCC有沒有行政裁處你說要等到檢察官偵查結束你要進行行政調查才會裁處我相信應該主委還記得吧我們已經有裁處相關案件\n\n01:02.174 --> 01:25.592\n來那2024年1月起訴了嘛那從我上次詢問到現在也經過一段時間現在採取的結果是什麼?針對飛速移動台灣卓域跟25電信那個平台處什麼時候採取的?採取的結果是什麼?因為我一直在查NCCR相關的委員會議新聞稿我都沒找到\n\n01:27.237 --> 01:49.379\n現在採取的結果是什麼我們採取的是海峽電信還有那個那個是之前另外一個案子去年的案子啊早就處理完了啊我上次在問你的就是針對這個蕭啟宏擔任顧問這個飛速移動台灣卓越跟25電信嘛我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了你說你要時間嘛那現在採取的結果是什麼是\n\n01:49.599 --> 01:49.919\n還需要多久?還需要多久?\n\n02:19.127 --> 02:46.659\n跟委員報告二五電訊跟台灣卓伊他並非電信事業那二五電訊他提供的服務並因為下面的這個資訊是黑莓卡那二五電訊他並沒有是提供這種黑莓他提供的是黑莓卡並會提供電信服務所以變成的是說這都不是屬於NCC採取的範圍是嗎目前為止我們看到的訊息二五電訊跟台灣卓伊是如此你們那個行政調查報告還要多久\n\n02:48.001 --> 03:11.401\n我們看過這個起訴書上面的這個訊息目前的為止是二五電訊他現在已經來中止跟我們匯值他的電信服務的重點對不起這不是我的問題啊你有兩種可能的答案第一個我沒有要做行政調查但這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛主委上次跟我說你要做行政調查嘛那我現在的問題很具體行政調查什麼時候會出來\n\n03:13.410 --> 03:42.470\n我們現在所了解的資料就是臺灣卓伊他並不是他沒有提供電信服務所以他不是電信事業所以在如果說調查完應該是目前這樣的一個情形所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎請數位這個行政調查來講是說比如說這兩家還有沒有其他的比如說像黑美卡跟比特幣這個部分那這會涉及到相關的法律是什麼那我們要比如說是所以你有沒有要做行政調查沒有沒有這還是在處理當中所以還要處理多久\n\n03:43.490 --> 04:07.025\n不是,要看處理什麼事情如果說比如說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話沒有啦,我請主委齁,再回去看一下我們上次詢答的那個有有,我們打詐司法裡面來講的話,比如針對黑命貓現在我不是在講打詐司法,這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查跟委員報告,我們現在已經針對二五電信去調查過他提供的服務行政調查報告什麼時候可以做出來\n\n04:08.462 --> 04:37.363\n我們目前並沒有發現二五電訊在這一件事情上有違反我們電網法上面的規定所以他被起訴了但是沒有違法是這樣嗎沒有沒有他起訴違法但是違反相關的刑法的規定嘛那行政調查來講的話只是說我們當時有調查沒有關係嘛如果你今天行政調查的結果是他沒有違反相關的法律那也是一個調查的結論嘛那我的意思就是我現在不要聽你們講的白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來\n\n04:38.806 --> 04:57.440\n還需要多久?你說現在調查完了那你等一下可能回去就可以寫行政調查報告嗎?那你的行政調查報告經不經典型檢驗站來講嗎?我們一個月內給委員這邊一個月內齁好行政調查報告齁順便說明一下檢察官上面所點出來的事情齁蕭啟宏他協助\n\n05:01.107 --> 05:26.799\n二五電信公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司人員接洽。跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?在行政調查報告當中一併說明可以嗎?好來請中華電信董事長。中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去了解這一個詐騙的門神蕭啟宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫?\n\n05:30.970 --> 05:33.733\n沒關係齁他跟誰聯繫聯繫的事項是什麼中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明\n\n05:47.292 --> 06:01.531\n可以嗎?可以嘛,好那針對大家今天很關心的事情也就是說涉及到在不同的時間跟空間使用這一些電信使用人\n\n06:02.592 --> 06:21.202\n不管是不是有去識別話因為你即使有去識別話如果有ID做連結還是要回溯才能做比對嘛我想這個基本的commentary大家都有來請中華電信董事長5月19號的時候我發函給中華電信所以我要跟你們購買2024年5月19號在\n\n06:27.642 --> 06:56.583\n北平東路的大型集會2024年5月24日臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路大型集會你們產品裡面的人潮客群分析的這個產品那請問針對這兩場集會中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析我們沒有從來就沒有做過好那如果我今天要跟你們買你們會出售嗎我們沒有的話就無從出售第二你們可以回去做啊\n\n06:57.202 --> 07:24.499\n第二這個我們公司基本上基於這個行政中立政治中立的一個立場還有在政策上我們不承接這個政黨還有這個涉及到包括選舉或者是有所以政黨沒有選舉沒有好那我就進一步要具體的請教就是說因為你們講得很清楚了啦你東西都沒有提供給王玉川嘛我們姑且相信\n\n07:25.259 --> 07:45.578\n我們姑且相信但我現在要進一步的問是說不管是在北平東路的519還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候周遭所聚集的人群到目前為止中華電信從來沒有做過人群客氣分析我們沒有從來沒有做過嘛那第二個\n\n07:47.045 --> 08:16.238\n今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話你們也不會出手我們拒絕提供這方面的服務你們拒絕提供這方面的服務那我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題就是說中華電信裡面過去這段時間當中被媒體披露有非常多的綠油友有非常多的綠油友當然他們是按照自己的專業還是按照\n\n08:17.540 --> 08:39.560\n政治關係到中華電信去任職我相信這社會會公平我現在具體的問題是從2018年以後到現在中華電信有沒有針對譬如說像選舉的時候選前之夜這種人群的聚集做過任何的分析\n\n08:40.205 --> 08:41.467\n從2018年到現在如果有人手上拿到\n\n08:53.897 --> 09:12.084\n針對這一個客群進行分析因為今天董事長說中華電信從來沒做過嘛就我的了解沒有如果有人手上有這樣子的人群客群分析他一定是偷偷的非法的使用你們的data去進行分析我這樣子的理解對嗎\n\n09:15.677 --> 09:25.095\n因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛就正常的管道公開的從來沒做過嘛現在大家在質疑的是什麼有沒有私底下\n\n09:26.229 --> 09:47.932\n用這個data去做私底下的分析所以我的問題很簡單中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析我的理解沒有錯吧如果有人手上拿到這個東西一定是非法使用對不對\n\n09:50.078 --> 10:01.080\n我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料對啦你說你沒有提供這方面的資料我姑且信之嘛但我的意思就是說如果有人手上有的話那一定是非法使用對不對\n\n10:02.489 --> 10:31.849\n中華電信要有個立場啊我們沒有做過這個事啊如果有人背著中華電信的高層董總不知道私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情中華電信絕不容許一定是非法的追究法律責任到底董事長可以展現這個態度這個如果有這個剛才委員所提的相關的個案我們一定會查明役處究責好下一個來最後請主委不好意思再一分鐘就好\n\n10:32.949 --> 10:49.894\n依照個人資料保護法22條的規定中央目的主管機關或是其實地方政府他為了要去確保有關於個人資料保護認為有必要的話是不是可以進行行政調查如果依照個人資料保護法22條的規定如果對於\n\n10:55.307 --> 11:19.732\n本法所規定第一項第二項他可以做什麼他可以進入那個場所他可以檢查或者是處分喔他可以要求你提出資料喔還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧主委是我們基本上是用機場的手段去處理好\n\n11:20.612 --> 11:39.042\n到目前為止,你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查?報告委員,其實我們非常重視個資,NCC成立以後至少我了解108年就開始每一年都要求\n\n11:40.103 --> 12:01.263\n108年開始每一年通通都有檢查舉例來說像去年大概在七八月完成那我們今年也排定在八九月也陸陸續續也要去進行看業者有沒有落實他的個資委員會計畫我先確定一下啦你們從108年就有做行政檢查到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況對不對\n\n12:02.964 --> 12:05.646\n所以我說依照法律效果來講可以罰多少錢?\n\n12:31.259 --> 12:56.594\n2萬元到20萬元以下2萬以上20萬以下還有第25條的各項處分最後一個最關鍵的問題來請中華電信董事長還有NCC主委一併回答最後的問題剛剛NCC說了從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對各支進行行政檢查這個行政檢查的檢查報告NCC可不可以提供\n\n13:00.120 --> 13:27.546\n需要多久每一年喔從你們開始做到現在喔每一年的行政檢查的報告可不可以提供報告委員我們大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下因為我剛才108年是我任職啦那我回去再確定我們倒過來從比如說從2011年我們回去沒有關係啊你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛看你做幾年所有的行政檢查報告都交出來可以嗎\n\n13:28.727 --> 13:30.309\n我們要一個月裡面來整理給委員這邊來看\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.372,"end":21.475,"text":"謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請通傳會陳朱瑞以及中華電信的郭董事長請陳朱瑞請郭董事長委員好委員好"},{"start":23.107,"end":38.994,"text":"主委好 董事長主委我先針對我上一次提出來的問題繼續往下追因為前面有個NCC主委 蕭啟宏他聯合詐團的本事這件事情人神共憤我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明"},{"start":42.293,"end":61.083,"text":"上一次我說針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用我問你說NCC有沒有行政裁處你說要等到檢察官偵查結束你要進行行政調查才會裁處我相信應該主委還記得吧我們已經有裁處相關案件"},{"start":62.174,"end":85.592,"text":"來那2024年1月起訴了嘛那從我上次詢問到現在也經過一段時間現在採取的結果是什麼?針對飛速移動台灣卓域跟25電信那個平台處什麼時候採取的?採取的結果是什麼?因為我一直在查NCCR相關的委員會議新聞稿我都沒找到"},{"start":87.237,"end":109.379,"text":"現在採取的結果是什麼我們採取的是海峽電信還有那個那個是之前另外一個案子去年的案子啊早就處理完了啊我上次在問你的就是針對這個蕭啟宏擔任顧問這個飛速移動台灣卓越跟25電信嘛我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了你說你要時間嘛那現在採取的結果是什麼是"},{"start":109.599,"end":109.919,"text":"還需要多久?還需要多久?"},{"start":139.127,"end":166.659,"text":"跟委員報告二五電訊跟台灣卓伊他並非電信事業那二五電訊他提供的服務並因為下面的這個資訊是黑莓卡那二五電訊他並沒有是提供這種黑莓他提供的是黑莓卡並會提供電信服務所以變成的是說這都不是屬於NCC採取的範圍是嗎目前為止我們看到的訊息二五電訊跟台灣卓伊是如此你們那個行政調查報告還要多久"},{"start":168.001,"end":191.401,"text":"我們看過這個起訴書上面的這個訊息目前的為止是二五電訊他現在已經來中止跟我們匯值他的電信服務的重點對不起這不是我的問題啊你有兩種可能的答案第一個我沒有要做行政調查但這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛主委上次跟我說你要做行政調查嘛那我現在的問題很具體行政調查什麼時候會出來"},{"start":193.41,"end":222.47,"text":"我們現在所了解的資料就是臺灣卓伊他並不是他沒有提供電信服務所以他不是電信事業所以在如果說調查完應該是目前這樣的一個情形所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎請數位這個行政調查來講是說比如說這兩家還有沒有其他的比如說像黑美卡跟比特幣這個部分那這會涉及到相關的法律是什麼那我們要比如說是所以你有沒有要做行政調查沒有沒有這還是在處理當中所以還要處理多久"},{"start":223.49,"end":247.025,"text":"不是,要看處理什麼事情如果說比如說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話沒有啦,我請主委齁,再回去看一下我們上次詢答的那個有有,我們打詐司法裡面來講的話,比如針對黑命貓現在我不是在講打詐司法,這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查跟委員報告,我們現在已經針對二五電信去調查過他提供的服務行政調查報告什麼時候可以做出來"},{"start":248.462,"end":277.363,"text":"我們目前並沒有發現二五電訊在這一件事情上有違反我們電網法上面的規定所以他被起訴了但是沒有違法是這樣嗎沒有沒有他起訴違法但是違反相關的刑法的規定嘛那行政調查來講的話只是說我們當時有調查沒有關係嘛如果你今天行政調查的結果是他沒有違反相關的法律那也是一個調查的結論嘛那我的意思就是我現在不要聽你們講的白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":278.806,"end":297.44,"text":"還需要多久?你說現在調查完了那你等一下可能回去就可以寫行政調查報告嗎?那你的行政調查報告經不經典型檢驗站來講嗎?我們一個月內給委員這邊一個月內齁好行政調查報告齁順便說明一下檢察官上面所點出來的事情齁蕭啟宏他協助"},{"start":301.107,"end":326.799,"text":"二五電信公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司人員接洽。跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?在行政調查報告當中一併說明可以嗎?好來請中華電信董事長。中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去了解這一個詐騙的門神蕭啟宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫?"},{"start":330.97,"end":333.733,"text":"沒關係齁他跟誰聯繫聯繫的事項是什麼中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明"},{"start":347.292,"end":361.531,"text":"可以嗎?可以嘛,好那針對大家今天很關心的事情也就是說涉及到在不同的時間跟空間使用這一些電信使用人"},{"start":362.592,"end":381.202,"text":"不管是不是有去識別話因為你即使有去識別話 如果有ID做連結還是要回溯才能做比對嘛我想這個基本的commentary大家都有來請中華電信董事長5月19號的時候我發函給中華電信所以我要跟你們購買2024年5月19號在"},{"start":387.642,"end":416.583,"text":"北平東路的大型集會2024年5月24日臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路大型集會你們產品裡面的人潮客群分析的這個產品那請問針對這兩場集會中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析我們沒有從來就沒有做過好那如果我今天要跟你們買你們會出售嗎我們沒有的話就無從出售第二你們可以回去做啊"},{"start":417.202,"end":444.499,"text":"第二 這個我們公司基本上基於這個行政中立政治中立的一個立場還有在政策上我們不承接這個政黨還有這個涉及到包括選舉或者是有所以政黨沒有選舉沒有好 那我就進一步要具體的請教就是說因為你們講得很清楚了啦你東西都沒有提供給王玉川嘛我們姑且相信"},{"start":445.259,"end":465.578,"text":"我們姑且相信但我現在要進一步的問是說不管是在北平東路的519還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候周遭所聚集的人群到目前為止中華電信從來沒有做過人群客氣分析我們沒有從來沒有做過嘛那第二個"},{"start":467.045,"end":496.238,"text":"今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話你們也不會出手我們拒絕提供這方面的服務你們拒絕提供這方面的服務那我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題就是說中華電信裡面過去這段時間當中被媒體披露有非常多的綠油友有非常多的綠油友當然他們是按照自己的專業還是按照"},{"start":497.54,"end":519.56,"text":"政治關係到中華電信去任職我相信這社會會公平我現在具體的問題是從2018年以後到現在中華電信有沒有針對譬如說像選舉的時候選前之夜這種人群的聚集做過任何的分析"},{"start":520.205,"end":521.467,"text":"從2018年到現在如果有人手上拿到"},{"start":533.897,"end":552.084,"text":"針對這一個客群進行分析因為今天董事長說中華電信從來沒做過嘛就我的了解沒有如果有人手上有這樣子的人群客群分析他一定是偷偷的非法的使用你們的data去進行分析我這樣子的理解對嗎"},{"start":555.677,"end":565.095,"text":"因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛就正常的管道公開的從來沒做過嘛現在大家在質疑的是什麼有沒有私底下"},{"start":566.229,"end":587.932,"text":"用這個data去做私底下的分析所以我的問題很簡單中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析我的理解沒有錯吧如果有人手上拿到這個東西一定是非法使用對不對"},{"start":590.078,"end":601.08,"text":"我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料對啦你說你沒有提供這方面的資料我姑且信之嘛但我的意思就是說如果有人手上有的話那一定是非法使用對不對"},{"start":602.489,"end":631.849,"text":"中華電信要有個立場啊我們沒有做過這個事啊如果有人背著中華電信的高層董總不知道私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情中華電信絕不容許一定是非法的追究法律責任到底董事長可以展現這個態度這個如果有這個剛才委員所提的相關的個案我們一定會查明役處究責好下一個來最後請主委不好意思再一分鐘就好"},{"start":632.949,"end":649.894,"text":"依照個人資料保護法22條的規定中央目的主管機關或是其實地方政府他為了要去確保有關於個人資料保護認為有必要的話是不是可以進行行政調查如果依照個人資料保護法22條的規定如果對於"},{"start":655.307,"end":679.732,"text":"本法所規定第一項第二項他可以做什麼他可以進入那個場所他可以檢查或者是處分喔他可以要求你提出資料喔還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧主委是我們基本上是用機場的手段去處理好"},{"start":680.612,"end":699.042,"text":"到目前為止,你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查?報告委員,其實我們非常重視個資,NCC成立以後至少我了解108年就開始每一年都要求"},{"start":700.103,"end":721.263,"text":"108年開始每一年通通都有檢查舉例來說像去年大概在七八月完成那我們今年也排定在八九月也陸陸續續也要去進行看業者有沒有落實他的個資委員會計畫我先確定一下啦你們從108年就有做行政檢查到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況對不對"},{"start":722.964,"end":725.646,"text":"所以我說依照法律效果來講可以罰多少錢?"},{"start":751.259,"end":776.594,"text":"2萬元到20萬元以下 2萬以上20萬以下還有第25條的各項處分最後一個最關鍵的問題來請中華電信董事長還有NCC主委一併回答最後的問題剛剛NCC說了從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對各支進行行政檢查這個行政檢查的檢查報告NCC可不可以提供"},{"start":780.12,"end":807.546,"text":"需要多久每一年喔從你們開始做到現在喔每一年的行政檢查的報告可不可以提供報告委員我們大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下因為我剛才108年是我任職啦那我回去再確定我們倒過來從比如說從2011年我們回去沒有關係啊你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛看你做幾年所有的行政檢查報告都交出來可以嗎"},{"start":808.727,"end":810.309,"text":"我們要一個月裡面來整理給委員這邊來看"}]}}}}