{"id":153550,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153550","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98354d10738d9c897105d12856443da96968f95e3d087843c294876b56de8f8c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:46:06 - 09:57:48","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧(AI)推動現況與未來方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T09:46:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T09:57:48+08:00","duration":702,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時46分）謝謝召委。我們有請吳主委還有葉次長。"],["主席：好，有請吳主委、葉次長。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：主委好。主委，我想任何事情一定都是一體兩面，我們現在AI這麼高速的發展，誠如上一次我們在質詢的過程當中，吳主委您有舉了一個例子說，就像這個刀可以用來做菜，也許也可以做其他的。我們看到其實這一次民進黨政策會的執行長王義川有說，他說可以用基地台的訊號來查看民眾是否有足跡堆疊的大數據，這個新聞一出來，不知道主委有沒有follow，但是會弄得全國人心惶惶，大家都很擔心是不是遭到監控。但是今天要討論的不是這件事情，因為本席更加擔心的是，如果AI的發展被有心人利用，恐怕會侵犯個資還有個人隱私，這樣的情況其實會更加地嚴重，這樣的說法、我的這個看法，我不曉得兩位同意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我同意。"],["萬委員美玲：次長？"],["葉次長寧：是，風險需要控管。"],["萬委員美玲：是。所以我想請教一下，以主委為主，還有次長，您知道現在其實已經可以透過AI來監控電腦或者是應用軟體，而且可以獲得個人的資料跟隱私嗎？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個還是要使用者同意，目前的機制是這樣。"],["萬委員美玲：您的意思是說現在無法透過AI來監控？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果使用者的設定沒有辦法監控的話，就沒有辦法監控。"],["萬委員美玲：次長？"],["葉次長寧：是，就我瞭解，這跟個人資料儲存環境有關，他的資訊系統通常會設定一些權限，從我們部的立場來看的話，從資安的角度來看，個人資料的儲存跟他的整個……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有，本席的問題很簡單，您認為是可以還是不可以？就您所知。"],["葉次長寧：要看他在應用的……"],["萬委員美玲：做得到還是做不到，可以監控嗎？"],["葉次長寧：如果這個資料庫是開放的，那不用AI也搜尋得到，如果這個資料有設定良好的儲存權限，以及他的加密措施，不見得可以搜尋得到。"],["萬委員美玲：兩位一起，根據媒體的報導，我們看到全球有22%的企業是以AI來監控員工的活動數據，有17%可以監控員工的電腦使用，16%則可以紀錄員工的email，連全球最大電商亞馬遜、星巴克、達美航空、雀巢等等這些大企業都可以透過AI新創公司來監控員工，不管是監控他們的動態、聊天紀錄或是計算績效等等，有不同的監控方向，雖然AI新創公司都說這個分析是一個匿名的數據，但是用以上這樣來看，主委，先請教您一下，您認為這樣的監控有沒有侵犯隱私權或是違反個資法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分如果是……"],["萬委員美玲：就是以上我跟您說的這種情況，您認為有沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認為這不是一般的隱私問題，企業內部的內規在法令允許的範圍之內……"],["萬委員美玲：好。次長，您的看法呢？"],["葉次長寧：就如剛才主委所說的，這如果涉及到勞動條件的部分，這個恐怕要看勞動條件的法規而定。"],["萬委員美玲：好。所以現在二位的意思是說，只要內規有自己規定，就可以無上限去監控員工，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個當然是……"],["萬委員美玲：所以要說清楚嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：聘僱契約是雇主跟員工簽訂的，所以這個我們應該可以理解。"],["萬委員美玲：好。主委、次長，我想再請教一下，所以臺灣的企業是不是在剛剛上述的條件之下，一樣可以用AI來監控員工？這是第一個問題。第二個部分，我們公部門是不是也可以這樣來做，用AI來監控公務人員的電腦，可以嗎？"],["葉次長寧：我們首先要說明的就是，剛才這邊所看到的資料，所謂的監控或是針對員工的活動，都是指他在職場場域使用公用的系統跟電腦所從事職務上的行為，並不包括他的私人生活。"],["萬委員美玲：好。次長，您剛剛所說的就是他是公務上的公務使用；再來，電腦雖然是企業或是公務機關的資產，但我們知道，其實很多的網頁或者程式都是需要去登錄一些個人的資料，所以AI監控員工的電腦，不管您認為這個監控能不能接受，但是這已經是全面性的蒐集數據，如果是在一個沒有告知或者同意的情況之下，根據我國個人資料保護法的規定，其實已經有觸法疑慮了。所以我想目前你們看到的可能是比較淺層面的，但是未來發展之後，在監控上面有關觸法的疑慮，或者是將來有失控的狀態，我想國科會跟數發部是不是應該就本席今天的提醒，再回去做一些研究？","同時，我們都在講說有很多地方可能是匿名，都有保護，可是根據美國紐約大學AI Now研究所的報告顯示，這個資訊可以讓你看一下，即使數據是彙整在一起或者是匿名的，可是在保護隱私上面，他們認為仍然是有缺陷的。在1990年美國人口普查數據所做的一個研究，AI透過郵遞區號、出生日期跟性別，就可以辨識出87%的美國人，而且歐美企業使用AI監控員工，其實也引發了對於AI侵犯隱私權的相關疑慮，所以我想這樣的疑慮，我們也不能輕忽，也不能太胸有成竹跟自信。","除了擔憂AI會侵害人權之外，我們也擔心未來AI技術的應用在詐騙上面，像這幾年的深偽或是偽造聲音，這種詐騙比一般詐騙還要難辨別，我記得數發部黃部長在上週的業務報告也有說3個月內要推出打詐通報查詢網，這個部分請教一下次長，數發部這個查詢網是不是能夠對於AI相關的詐騙有效地來防止？你們有沒有跟國科會做橫向的溝通跟合作？"],["葉次長寧：我們當然一直都有跟國科會保持密切合作。首先，我們非常同意剛才委員的說法，即便企業要對員工在職務上的行為有所瞭解，他也要完全符合個資法的規定，譬如說必須充分地告知跟同意。第二個，剛剛所提到的詐騙通報查詢網，部長的理念非常清楚，既然詐騙有可能由AI產生，那他的辨識跟分辨以及通知也應該用AI來防禦，所以我們是同樣用AI來進行這方面的……"],["萬委員美玲：好，OK。我想我們就是要更細地去做一些相關研究跟橫向聯繫。","吳主委，您有說您希望在10月就會想辦法把AI基本法草案送進行政院嘛。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：上次有講。但是我想AI不管是在剛剛本席所講的詐騙上面、監控上面，甚至於將來有可能侵害到民眾的個資隱私，我想未來只會有更加嚴重的狀況，所以針對AI的濫用，國科會在AI基本法中是不是應該要做清楚的規範跟納入？這一點我想提醒吳主委，在這個草案送上來之前要詳加研究，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來再一題，一樣是請教吳主委，黃仁勳來臺的旋風，當然您還沒跟他見面，也應該想辦法要跟他見一見，但不管是他或是超微等等，都要在臺灣做更多的研發中心設立等等，這一連串的旋風有助於AI的科技成果，但不曉得您認為有沒有辦法應用在民生，讓全民共享？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們正在努力做這件事，剛剛前面委員也有問到這個問題，所以除了在算力的建置、人才培育上面我們要努力之外，我們在應用方面也要努力。"],["萬委員美玲：有，本席有感受到您正在努力。但是我們來討論一下，上週本席質詢的時候，主委說當前的AI應用仍然有相當的距離，我們要循序漸進。我們看到107年有推動四年期的臺灣AI行動計畫，要全面啟動AI產業化，您應該清楚，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["萬委員美玲：好。根據112年國家數位發展研究報告指出，我國採用智慧居家相關服務，有很多部分、很多項目不升反降，如智慧家電由109年的15%降到112年剩下11%，智慧照護的部分也從109年的14%往下降，一樣來到112年的13%，所以我們看到AI科技在應用上面其實越推越退步，這是第一個。","第二個，依照國科會2022年臺灣AI國力調查，這一點比較重要，公部門的AI成熟度的等級竟然只有3.3，排名為倒數第三，賴總統說要推AI之島，我們看到公部門其實還跟不上，所以不管是我們剛剛說的應用在民生上面還有公部門，看起來我們都沒有跟上腳步，這兩個部分能不能請主委回答一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會努力做。"],["萬委員美玲：就這麼簡單一句話？能不能告訴我一下為什麼我們在科技應用上面會越推越退步？是什麼原因？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們整個公部門、全國公務機關的預算其實相當的沉重，按照委員的建議，我們希望增加，能夠推動，不是只有產業AI化，在政府AI化的部分，我們也希望能夠開啟一些新的方案來協助他們。"],["萬委員美玲：好，主委，我想我可以接受，為什麼呢？因為我看你講這兩題講得真的好勉強喔！也不要再為難你了，但是我希望會後針對我們剛剛說AI科技的應用比例不升反降，還有我們公部門的狀況，請你會後還是給我一個報告，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：最後，行政院今年推動AI行動方案2.0，期程是在2023到2026，整個願景是希望能夠帶動產業升級還有增進社會福祉，讓臺灣成為全球AI的一個新銳，可是你看我們從107年開始推動AI，然後我們在所有的報告當中看到所有的數據不升反降，請問一下這樣的一個計畫是要怎麼去增進社會福祉這一條？這你能跟我簡單說明一下嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們要增進社會福祉的部分，就是希望不是只有在AI的……我們現在主要是在AI硬體的產業，不是只有這個產業一直往前衝，我們是希望，第一是建置臺灣自己的算力，可以擴展AI在臺灣的應用，不是只有在幫國外、幫國際來貢獻而已，所以這個政策我們現在正在扭轉，然後會慢慢應用到各行各業的算力以及人力會把它增加。"],["萬委員美玲：好，主委，有一些資料請您會後提供給我，但是本席最後提醒，我想科技發展跟科技應用一樣重要，我們希望齊頭並進、一起加油！謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，同意，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，主委請回。我們接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葛如鈞","柯志恩","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","范雲","翁曉玲","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","吳春城","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","牛煦庭"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧 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00:02:45,860\n有17%可以監控員工的電腦使用16%則可以記錄員工的電郵所以連全球最大電商亞馬遜、星巴克、達美航空、雀巢等等這些大企業都可以透過AI新創公司來監控員工\n\n9\n00:02:47,641 --> 00:03:06,130\n不管是監控他們的動態、聊天記錄或是計算績效等等有不同的一個監控的方向但是雖然AI的新創公司都說他這個分析他是一個匿名的數據但是用以上這樣來看我想主委先請教您一下您認為這樣的監控有沒有侵犯隱私權或是違反個資法\n\n10\n00:03:08,104 --> 00:03:11,146\n市長,您的看法呢?就如剛剛蘇薇所說的,這其實如果涉及到勞動條件的部分,那這恐怕要看勞動條件的法規而定。\n\n11\n00:03:30,805 --> 00:03:47,206\n所以現在二位的意思是說只要內規有內規這個自己規定我們就可以無上去監控員工是這樣嗎?這個當然是並估契約是僱主跟員工簽訂的所以這個我們應該可以理解\n\n12\n00:03:48,588 --> 00:04:01,528\n主委、次長,我想再請教一下所以台灣的企業我們是不是一樣可以在您剛剛所上述的條件之下可以用AI來監控員工這第一個問題第二個部分我們工部門是不是也可以這樣來做用AI來監控我們公務人員的電腦可以嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:03,558 --> 00:04:19,550\n我們首先要說明的就是說剛才這邊所看到的資料所謂的監控或是針對員工的活動都是指他在職場場域使用公用的系統跟電腦那他所從事他職務上的行為並不包括他私人生活在裡面\n\n14\n00:04:21,111 --> 00:04:41,469\n市長,您剛所說的,它是公務上的一個公務使用,然後再來電腦雖然是企業或是公務的一個機關資產,但我們知道其實有很多的網頁或的程式,它其實都是需要去登入一些個人的資料,所以在AI監控員工的電腦,不管您認為這個監控能不能接受,但是它已經是一個全面性的一個蒐集這個數據,\n\n15\n00:04:43,351 --> 00:04:56,966\n那如果是在一個沒有告知或者同意的情況之下那根據我國個人資料保護法的規定其實已經有觸法的疑慮了所以我是想目前你們看到的可能是比較淺層面但是未來發展之後\n\n16\n00:04:59,549 --> 00:05:05,516\n會怎樣去在監控上面去觸法的疑慮或者是說將來有視空的狀態我想國科會跟訴發部是不是應該都要就本席今天提醒能夠再回去做一些研究那同時\n\n17\n00:05:14,986 --> 00:05:31,253\n我們都在講說有很多地方他其實可能匿名啊都有保護啊可是根據美國紐約大學AINOW的研究所的報告顯示這個資訊給讓你看一下即使數據是彙整在一起或者是一個匿名的可是在保護的這個隱私上面他們認為仍然是有缺陷的\n\n18\n00:05:32,194 --> 00:05:59,636\n在1990年美國人口普查數據做的研究AI只有透過由地區號、出生日期跟性別它就可以辨識出87%的美國人而且歐美企業使用AI監控員工其實也引發了相關對於AI侵犯隱私權的疑慮所以我想這樣的疑慮我們也不能輕忽它也不能太胸有成竹跟自信我們除了擔憂AI會侵害人權之外我們也擔心未來AI技術的\n\n19\n00:06:00,356 --> 00:06:00,716\n主任委員會主任委員會主席\n\n20\n00:06:26,039 --> 00:06:44,709\n我們一直當然都跟國科會保持密切合作首先我們非常同意剛才委員的說法即便企業要對員工的職務上的行為作為有所了解的話他也要符合完全符合各自法的規定譬如說他必須充分的告知跟同意第二AI剛剛我們所提到的\n\n21\n00:06:45,149 --> 00:06:45,369\n吳主委,我想您有說\n\n22\n00:07:06,617 --> 00:07:20,543\n您希望在10月就會想辦法把AI基本法草案送進行政院嗎?是上次有講但是我想這個AI不管是在我剛剛本席所講的詐騙上面、監控上面甚至於將來有可能侵害到民眾的個資、隱私我想未來只會有更加嚴重的狀況所以針對AI的濫用我想國科會在AI基本法當中\n\n23\n00:07:27,526 --> 00:07:39,816\n是不是應該要做一些清楚的規範跟納入這一點我想提醒吳主委在這個草案送上來之前我想要強加研究好不好那接下來我再一提一樣是請教一下吳主委我想這個黃仁勛來台這個旋風那當然您還沒跟他見面了也在想辦法應該要跟他見一見\n\n24\n00:07:46,441 --> 00:08:04,816\n但是不管是他啦或者是這個超維啦等等都有要在台灣來做更多的一些研發中心的設立啦等等啦那不曉得您認為這一些這一連串這些旋風有助於這個AI的這個科技成果但是有沒有辦法運用在民生讓全民共享\n\n25\n00:08:05,714 --> 00:08:32,615\n我們正在努力做這件事剛剛前面委員也有問到這個問題所以除了在算力的建置人才培育上面我們要努力之外本席有感受到您正在努力但是我們來討論一下上一週本席質詢的時候主委說當前的AI應用仍然有相當的距離那我們要循序漸進那我們看到107年我們推動四年期的台灣AI行動計畫全面要啟動AI產業化您應該清楚對不對\n\n26\n00:08:35,837 --> 00:08:48,402\n好那根據112年國家數位發展研究報告指出我國採用智慧居家相關服務有很多的部分很多的項目不升反降如智慧家電109年15%降到112年剩下11%那智慧照顧的部分也從109年的14%往下降一樣來到這個112年13%所以為什麼\n\n27\n00:08:58,806 --> 00:09:27,802\n我們看到這個AI科技的應用上面其實越推其實越退步這第一個第二個在一到國科會2022年台灣AI國力的調查那這一點比較重要公部門的AI成熟度的等級竟然只有3.3排名排序在倒數第三所以其實賴總統說要推這個AI之道那我們看到公部門其實還跟不上所以不管是我們剛剛說的應用在民生上面還有公部門看起來我們都沒有跟上腳步這兩個部分能不能請主委回答一下\n\n28\n00:09:30,384 --> 00:09:38,203\n我們會努力做就這麼簡單一句話能不能告訴我一下為什麼我們在科技應用上面會越退越退步?什麼原因?\n\n29\n00:09:39,574 --> 00:10:05,881\n我們整個公部門全國的公務機關的其實那個預算也相當的沉重那我們將來希望按照委員的建議我們希望增加能夠推動不是只有產業AI化在政府AI化的部分我們也希望能夠開啟一些新的這個方案來協助他們\n\n30\n00:10:07,862 --> 00:10:22,610\n主委,我想我可以接受,為什麼?因為我看你講這兩題講得真的好勉強,那這個也不要再為難你,但是我希望會後針對我們剛剛說的AI科技的應用,這個不升反降,比例不升反降,還有我們公部門的這個狀況,會後還是給我一個報告好不好?\n\n31\n00:10:24,731 --> 00:10:29,392\n最後我想行政院在今年推動AI的這個我們剛說的AI行動方案2.0期程是要在2023到2026那這整個願景是希望能夠帶動產業升級還有增進社會福祉讓台灣成為全球AI的一個新銳可是你看我們從107年我們開始推動AI然後我們在所有報告當中看到所有的數據不升反降請問一下這樣的一個計畫我們是要怎麼去\n\n32\n00:10:52,678 --> 00:10:56,556\n去增進社會福祉這一條這你能跟我簡單說明一下嗎?\n\n33\n00:10:57,937 --> 00:11:23,323\n我們要增進社會福祉的部分就是希望不是只有在AI的我們現在是主要是在AI的硬體的產業不是只有這個產業一直往前衝那我們希望說第一建置台灣自己的算力可以擴展AI在台灣的應用不是只有在幫國外幫國際來貢獻而已所以這個政策我們現在正在扭轉然後慢慢會把\n\n34\n00:11:24,063 --> 00:11:39,497\n應用到各行各業的這樣的這個算力以及人力會把它增加主委我想有一些資料您會後提供給我但是本期最後提醒我想科技發展跟科技應用一樣重要我們希望齊同並進一起加油是同意謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n529\t870\t萬美玲委員\n22307\t43256\t主委好 主委我想這個任何的事情一定都是一體兩面的 那我們現在AI這麼高速的一個發展 誠如上一次吳組委我們在這個質詢的過程當中您有舉了一個例子說 就像這個刀可以用來做菜也許也可以做其他的 那我們看到其實在這一次我們民進黨政策會的執行長王一川有說他說\n43996\t44036\t拜訪委員\n75037\t82344\t您知道現在其實已經可以透過AI來監控電腦或者是應用軟體﹖而且可以獲得了個人的資料跟隱私了嗎?主委您的意思是說現在無法透過AI來監控?\n99695\t99875\t市長市長\n107970\t129193\t就我了解就是所謂的個人資料的跟個人資料儲存環境有關那他資訊系統通常會設定一些權限那從我們部的立場來看的話所謂的從資安的角度來看個人資料的儲存跟他的整個沒有我本身問題很簡單阿現在您認為是可以還是不可以就您所知要看他在應用的做得到還是做不到\n130333\t149784\t如果這個資料庫是開放的 那不用AI也搜尋得到 那如果這個資料有設定良好的儲存權限以及它的這個加密的措施 不見得可以搜尋得到我想兩位一起 根據媒體的報導 我們看到全球有22%的企業是以AI來監控員工的活動數據\n151145\t165860\t有17%可以監控員工的電腦使用16%則可以記錄員工的電郵所以連全球最大電商亞馬遜、星巴克、達美航空、雀巢等等這些大企業都可以透過AI新創公司來監控員工\n167641\t186130\t不管是監控他們的動態、聊天記錄或是計算績效等等有不同的一個監控的方向但是雖然AI的新創公司都說他這個分析他是一個匿名的數據但是用以上這樣來看我想主委先請教您一下您認為這樣的監控有沒有侵犯隱私權或是違反個資法\n188104\t191146\t市長,您的看法呢?就如剛剛蘇薇所說的,這其實如果涉及到勞動條件的部分,那這恐怕要看勞動條件的法規而定。\n210805\t227206\t所以現在二位的意思是說只要內規有內規這個自己規定我們就可以無上去監控員工是這樣嗎?這個當然是並估契約是僱主跟員工簽訂的所以這個我們應該可以理解\n228588\t241528\t主委、次長,我想再請教一下所以台灣的企業我們是不是一樣可以在您剛剛所上述的條件之下可以用AI來監控員工這第一個問題第二個部分我們工部門是不是也可以這樣來做用AI來監控我們公務人員的電腦可以嗎?\n243558\t259550\t我們首先要說明的就是說剛才這邊所看到的資料所謂的監控或是針對員工的活動都是指他在職場場域使用公用的系統跟電腦那他所從事他職務上的行為並不包括他私人生活在裡面\n261111\t281469\t市長,您剛所說的,它是公務上的一個公務使用,然後再來電腦雖然是企業或是公務的一個機關資產,但我們知道其實有很多的網頁或的程式,它其實都是需要去登入一些個人的資料,所以在AI監控員工的電腦,不管您認為這個監控能不能接受,但是它已經是一個全面性的一個蒐集這個數據,\n283351\t296966\t那如果是在一個沒有告知或者同意的情況之下那根據我國個人資料保護法的規定其實已經有觸法的疑慮了所以我是想目前你們看到的可能是比較淺層面但是未來發展之後\n299549\t305516\t會怎樣去在監控上面去觸法的疑慮或者是說將來有視空的狀態我想國科會跟訴發部是不是應該都要就本席今天提醒能夠再回去做一些研究那同時\n314986\t331253\t我們都在講說有很多地方他其實可能匿名啊都有保護啊可是根據美國紐約大學AI NOW的研究所的報告顯示這個資訊給讓你看一下即使數據是彙整在一起或者是一個匿名的可是在保護的這個隱私上面他們認為仍然是有缺陷的\n332194\t359636\t在1990年美國人口普查數據做的研究AI只有透過由地區號、出生日期跟性別它就可以辨識出87%的美國人而且歐美企業使用AI監控員工其實也引發了相關對於AI侵犯隱私權的疑慮所以我想這樣的疑慮我們也不能輕忽它也不能太胸有成竹跟自信我們除了擔憂AI會侵害人權之外我們也擔心未來AI技術的\n360356\t360716\t主任委員會主任委員會主席\n386039\t404709\t我們一直當然都跟國科會保持密切合作首先我們非常同意剛才委員的說法即便企業要對員工的職務上的行為作為有所了解的話他也要符合完全符合各自法的規定譬如說他必須充分的告知跟同意第二AI剛剛我們所提到的\n405149\t405369\t吳主委,我想您有說\n426617\t440543\t您希望在10月就會想辦法把AI基本法草案送進行政院嗎?是上次有講但是我想這個AI不管是在我剛剛本席所講的詐騙上面、監控上面甚至於將來有可能侵害到民眾的個資、隱私我想未來只會有更加嚴重的狀況所以針對AI的濫用我想國科會在AI基本法當中\n447526\t459816\t是不是應該要做一些清楚的規範跟納入這一點我想提醒吳主委在這個草案送上來之前我想要強加研究好不好那接下來我再一提一樣是請教一下吳主委我想這個黃仁勛來台這個旋風那當然您還沒跟他見面了也在想辦法應該要跟他見一見\n466441\t484816\t但是不管是他啦或者是這個超維啦等等都有要在台灣來做更多的一些研發中心的設立啦等等啦那不曉得您認為這一些這一連串這些旋風有助於這個AI的這個科技成果但是有沒有辦法運用在民生讓全民共享\n485714\t512615\t我們正在努力做這件事剛剛前面委員也有問到這個問題所以除了在算力的建置人才培育上面我們要努力之外本席有感受到您正在努力但是我們來討論一下上一週本席質詢的時候主委說當前的AI應用仍然有相當的距離那我們要循序漸進那我們看到107年我們推動四年期的台灣AI行動計畫全面要啟動AI產業化您應該清楚對不對\n515837\t528402\t好那根據112年國家數位發展研究報告指出我國採用智慧居家相關服務有很多的部分很多的項目不升反降如智慧家電109年15%降到112年剩下11%那智慧照顧的部分也從109年的14%往下降一樣來到這個112年13%所以為什麼\n538806\t567802\t我們看到這個AI科技的應用上面其實越推其實越退步這第一個第二個在一到國科會2022年台灣AI國力的調查那這一點比較重要公部門的AI成熟度的等級竟然只有3.3排名排序在倒數第三所以其實賴總統說要推這個AI之道那我們看到公部門其實還跟不上所以不管是我們剛剛說的應用在民生上面還有公部門看起來我們都沒有跟上腳步這兩個部分能不能請主委回答一下\n570384\t578203\t我們會努力做就這麼簡單一句話能不能告訴我一下為什麼我們在科技應用上面會越退越退步?什麼原因?\n579574\t605881\t我們整個公部門全國的公務機關的其實那個預算也相當的沉重那我們將來希望按照委員的建議我們希望增加能夠推動不是只有產業AI化在政府AI化的部分我們也希望能夠開啟一些新的這個方案來協助他們\n607862\t622610\t主委,我想我可以接受,為什麼?因為我看你講這兩題講得真的好勉強,那這個也不要再為難你,但是我希望會後針對我們剛剛說的AI科技的應用,這個不升反降,比例不升反降,還有我們公部門的這個狀況,會後還是給我一個報告好不好?\n624731\t629392\t最後我想行政院在今年推動AI的這個我們剛說的AI行動方案2.0期程是要在2023到2026那這整個願景是希望能夠帶動產業升級還有增進社會福祉讓台灣成為全球AI的一個新銳可是你看我們從107年我們開始推動AI然後我們在所有報告當中看到所有的數據不升反降請問一下這樣的一個計畫我們是要怎麼去\n652678\t656556\t去增進社會福祉這一條這你能跟我簡單說明一下嗎?\n657937\t683323\t我們要增進社會福祉的部分就是希望不是只有在AI的我們現在是主要是在AI的硬體的產業不是只有這個產業一直往前衝那我們希望說第一建置台灣自己的算力可以擴展AI在台灣的應用不是只有在幫國外幫國際來貢獻而已所以這個政策我們現在正在扭轉然後慢慢會把\n684063\t699497\t應用到各行各業的這樣的這個算力以及人力會把它增加主委我想有一些資料您會後提供給我但是本期最後提醒我想科技發展跟科技應用一樣重要我們希望齊同並進一起加油是同意謝謝\n","txt":"萬美玲委員\n主委好 主委我想這個任何的事情一定都是一體兩面的 那我們現在AI這麼高速的一個發展 誠如上一次吳組委我們在這個質詢的過程當中您有舉了一個例子說 就像這個刀可以用來做菜也許也可以做其他的 那我們看到其實在這一次我們民進黨政策會的執行長王一川有說他說\n拜訪委員\n您知道現在其實已經可以透過AI來監控電腦或者是應用軟體﹖而且可以獲得了個人的資料跟隱私了嗎?主委您的意思是說現在無法透過AI來監控?\n市長市長\n就我了解就是所謂的個人資料的跟個人資料儲存環境有關那他資訊系統通常會設定一些權限那從我們部的立場來看的話所謂的從資安的角度來看個人資料的儲存跟他的整個沒有我本身問題很簡單阿現在您認為是可以還是不可以就您所知要看他在應用的做得到還是做不到\n如果這個資料庫是開放的 那不用AI也搜尋得到 那如果這個資料有設定良好的儲存權限以及它的這個加密的措施 不見得可以搜尋得到我想兩位一起 根據媒體的報導 我們看到全球有22%的企業是以AI來監控員工的活動數據\n有17%可以監控員工的電腦使用16%則可以記錄員工的電郵所以連全球最大電商亞馬遜、星巴克、達美航空、雀巢等等這些大企業都可以透過AI新創公司來監控員工\n不管是監控他們的動態、聊天記錄或是計算績效等等有不同的一個監控的方向但是雖然AI的新創公司都說他這個分析他是一個匿名的數據但是用以上這樣來看我想主委先請教您一下您認為這樣的監控有沒有侵犯隱私權或是違反個資法\n市長,您的看法呢?就如剛剛蘇薇所說的,這其實如果涉及到勞動條件的部分,那這恐怕要看勞動條件的法規而定。\n所以現在二位的意思是說只要內規有內規這個自己規定我們就可以無上去監控員工是這樣嗎?這個當然是並估契約是僱主跟員工簽訂的所以這個我們應該可以理解\n主委、次長,我想再請教一下所以台灣的企業我們是不是一樣可以在您剛剛所上述的條件之下可以用AI來監控員工這第一個問題第二個部分我們工部門是不是也可以這樣來做用AI來監控我們公務人員的電腦可以嗎?\n我們首先要說明的就是說剛才這邊所看到的資料所謂的監控或是針對員工的活動都是指他在職場場域使用公用的系統跟電腦那他所從事他職務上的行為並不包括他私人生活在裡面\n市長,您剛所說的,它是公務上的一個公務使用,然後再來電腦雖然是企業或是公務的一個機關資產,但我們知道其實有很多的網頁或的程式,它其實都是需要去登入一些個人的資料,所以在AI監控員工的電腦,不管您認為這個監控能不能接受,但是它已經是一個全面性的一個蒐集這個數據,\n那如果是在一個沒有告知或者同意的情況之下那根據我國個人資料保護法的規定其實已經有觸法的疑慮了所以我是想目前你們看到的可能是比較淺層面但是未來發展之後\n會怎樣去在監控上面去觸法的疑慮或者是說將來有視空的狀態我想國科會跟訴發部是不是應該都要就本席今天提醒能夠再回去做一些研究那同時\n我們都在講說有很多地方他其實可能匿名啊都有保護啊可是根據美國紐約大學AI NOW的研究所的報告顯示這個資訊給讓你看一下即使數據是彙整在一起或者是一個匿名的可是在保護的這個隱私上面他們認為仍然是有缺陷的\n在1990年美國人口普查數據做的研究AI只有透過由地區號、出生日期跟性別它就可以辨識出87%的美國人而且歐美企業使用AI監控員工其實也引發了相關對於AI侵犯隱私權的疑慮所以我想這樣的疑慮我們也不能輕忽它也不能太胸有成竹跟自信我們除了擔憂AI會侵害人權之外我們也擔心未來AI技術的\n主任委員會主任委員會主席\n我們一直當然都跟國科會保持密切合作首先我們非常同意剛才委員的說法即便企業要對員工的職務上的行為作為有所了解的話他也要符合完全符合各自法的規定譬如說他必須充分的告知跟同意第二AI剛剛我們所提到的\n吳主委,我想您有說\n您希望在10月就會想辦法把AI基本法草案送進行政院嗎?是上次有講但是我想這個AI不管是在我剛剛本席所講的詐騙上面、監控上面甚至於將來有可能侵害到民眾的個資、隱私我想未來只會有更加嚴重的狀況所以針對AI的濫用我想國科會在AI基本法當中\n是不是應該要做一些清楚的規範跟納入這一點我想提醒吳主委在這個草案送上來之前我想要強加研究好不好那接下來我再一提一樣是請教一下吳主委我想這個黃仁勛來台這個旋風那當然您還沒跟他見面了也在想辦法應該要跟他見一見\n但是不管是他啦或者是這個超維啦等等都有要在台灣來做更多的一些研發中心的設立啦等等啦那不曉得您認為這一些這一連串這些旋風有助於這個AI的這個科技成果但是有沒有辦法運用在民生讓全民共享\n我們正在努力做這件事剛剛前面委員也有問到這個問題所以除了在算力的建置人才培育上面我們要努力之外本席有感受到您正在努力但是我們來討論一下上一週本席質詢的時候主委說當前的AI應用仍然有相當的距離那我們要循序漸進那我們看到107年我們推動四年期的台灣AI行動計畫全面要啟動AI產業化您應該清楚對不對\n好那根據112年國家數位發展研究報告指出我國採用智慧居家相關服務有很多的部分很多的項目不升反降如智慧家電109年15%降到112年剩下11%那智慧照顧的部分也從109年的14%往下降一樣來到這個112年13%所以為什麼\n我們看到這個AI科技的應用上面其實越推其實越退步這第一個第二個在一到國科會2022年台灣AI國力的調查那這一點比較重要公部門的AI成熟度的等級竟然只有3.3排名排序在倒數第三所以其實賴總統說要推這個AI之道那我們看到公部門其實還跟不上所以不管是我們剛剛說的應用在民生上面還有公部門看起來我們都沒有跟上腳步這兩個部分能不能請主委回答一下\n我們會努力做就這麼簡單一句話能不能告訴我一下為什麼我們在科技應用上面會越退越退步?什麼原因?\n我們整個公部門全國的公務機關的其實那個預算也相當的沉重那我們將來希望按照委員的建議我們希望增加能夠推動不是只有產業AI化在政府AI化的部分我們也希望能夠開啟一些新的這個方案來協助他們\n主委,我想我可以接受,為什麼?因為我看你講這兩題講得真的好勉強,那這個也不要再為難你,但是我希望會後針對我們剛剛說的AI科技的應用,這個不升反降,比例不升反降,還有我們公部門的這個狀況,會後還是給我一個報告好不好?\n最後我想行政院在今年推動AI的這個我們剛說的AI行動方案2.0期程是要在2023到2026那這整個願景是希望能夠帶動產業升級還有增進社會福祉讓台灣成為全球AI的一個新銳可是你看我們從107年我們開始推動AI然後我們在所有報告當中看到所有的數據不升反降請問一下這樣的一個計畫我們是要怎麼去\n去增進社會福祉這一條這你能跟我簡單說明一下嗎?\n我們要增進社會福祉的部分就是希望不是只有在AI的我們現在是主要是在AI的硬體的產業不是只有這個產業一直往前衝那我們希望說第一建置台灣自己的算力可以擴展AI在台灣的應用不是只有在幫國外幫國際來貢獻而已所以這個政策我們現在正在扭轉然後慢慢會把\n應用到各行各業的這樣的這個算力以及人力會把它增加主委我想有一些資料您會後提供給我但是本期最後提醒我想科技發展跟科技應用一樣重要我們希望齊同並進一起加油是同意謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.529 --> 00:00.870\n萬美玲委員\n\n00:22.307 --> 00:43.256\n主委好主委我想這個任何的事情一定都是一體兩面的那我們現在AI這麼高速的一個發展誠如上一次吳組委我們在這個質詢的過程當中您有舉了一個例子說就像這個刀可以用來做菜也許也可以做其他的那我們看到其實在這一次我們民進黨政策會的執行長王一川有說他說\n\n00:43.996 --> 00:44.036\n拜訪委員\n\n01:15.037 --> 01:22.344\n您知道現在其實已經可以透過AI來監控電腦或者是應用軟體﹖而且可以獲得了個人的資料跟隱私了嗎?主委您的意思是說現在無法透過AI來監控?\n\n01:39.695 --> 01:39.875\n市長市長\n\n01:47.970 --> 02:09.193\n就我了解就是所謂的個人資料的跟個人資料儲存環境有關那他資訊系統通常會設定一些權限那從我們部的立場來看的話所謂的從資安的角度來看個人資料的儲存跟他的整個沒有我本身問題很簡單阿現在您認為是可以還是不可以就您所知要看他在應用的做得到還是做不到\n\n02:10.333 --> 02:29.784\n如果這個資料庫是開放的那不用AI也搜尋得到那如果這個資料有設定良好的儲存權限以及它的這個加密的措施不見得可以搜尋得到我想兩位一起根據媒體的報導我們看到全球有22%的企業是以AI來監控員工的活動數據\n\n02:31.145 --> 02:45.860\n有17%可以監控員工的電腦使用16%則可以記錄員工的電郵所以連全球最大電商亞馬遜、星巴克、達美航空、雀巢等等這些大企業都可以透過AI新創公司來監控員工\n\n02:47.641 --> 03:06.130\n不管是監控他們的動態、聊天記錄或是計算績效等等有不同的一個監控的方向但是雖然AI的新創公司都說他這個分析他是一個匿名的數據但是用以上這樣來看我想主委先請教您一下您認為這樣的監控有沒有侵犯隱私權或是違反個資法\n\n03:08.104 --> 03:11.146\n市長,您的看法呢?就如剛剛蘇薇所說的,這其實如果涉及到勞動條件的部分,那這恐怕要看勞動條件的法規而定。\n\n03:30.805 --> 03:47.206\n所以現在二位的意思是說只要內規有內規這個自己規定我們就可以無上去監控員工是這樣嗎?這個當然是並估契約是僱主跟員工簽訂的所以這個我們應該可以理解\n\n03:48.588 --> 04:01.528\n主委、次長,我想再請教一下所以台灣的企業我們是不是一樣可以在您剛剛所上述的條件之下可以用AI來監控員工這第一個問題第二個部分我們工部門是不是也可以這樣來做用AI來監控我們公務人員的電腦可以嗎?\n\n04:03.558 --> 04:19.550\n我們首先要說明的就是說剛才這邊所看到的資料所謂的監控或是針對員工的活動都是指他在職場場域使用公用的系統跟電腦那他所從事他職務上的行為並不包括他私人生活在裡面\n\n04:21.111 --> 04:41.469\n市長,您剛所說的,它是公務上的一個公務使用,然後再來電腦雖然是企業或是公務的一個機關資產,但我們知道其實有很多的網頁或的程式,它其實都是需要去登入一些個人的資料,所以在AI監控員工的電腦,不管您認為這個監控能不能接受,但是它已經是一個全面性的一個蒐集這個數據,\n\n04:43.351 --> 04:56.966\n那如果是在一個沒有告知或者同意的情況之下那根據我國個人資料保護法的規定其實已經有觸法的疑慮了所以我是想目前你們看到的可能是比較淺層面但是未來發展之後\n\n04:59.549 --> 05:05.516\n會怎樣去在監控上面去觸法的疑慮或者是說將來有視空的狀態我想國科會跟訴發部是不是應該都要就本席今天提醒能夠再回去做一些研究那同時\n\n05:14.986 --> 05:31.253\n我們都在講說有很多地方他其實可能匿名啊都有保護啊可是根據美國紐約大學AINOW的研究所的報告顯示這個資訊給讓你看一下即使數據是彙整在一起或者是一個匿名的可是在保護的這個隱私上面他們認為仍然是有缺陷的\n\n05:32.194 --> 05:59.636\n在1990年美國人口普查數據做的研究AI只有透過由地區號、出生日期跟性別它就可以辨識出87%的美國人而且歐美企業使用AI監控員工其實也引發了相關對於AI侵犯隱私權的疑慮所以我想這樣的疑慮我們也不能輕忽它也不能太胸有成竹跟自信我們除了擔憂AI會侵害人權之外我們也擔心未來AI技術的\n\n06:00.356 --> 06:00.716\n主任委員會主任委員會主席\n\n06:26.039 --> 06:44.709\n我們一直當然都跟國科會保持密切合作首先我們非常同意剛才委員的說法即便企業要對員工的職務上的行為作為有所了解的話他也要符合完全符合各自法的規定譬如說他必須充分的告知跟同意第二AI剛剛我們所提到的\n\n06:45.149 --> 06:45.369\n吳主委,我想您有說\n\n07:06.617 --> 07:20.543\n您希望在10月就會想辦法把AI基本法草案送進行政院嗎?是上次有講但是我想這個AI不管是在我剛剛本席所講的詐騙上面、監控上面甚至於將來有可能侵害到民眾的個資、隱私我想未來只會有更加嚴重的狀況所以針對AI的濫用我想國科會在AI基本法當中\n\n07:27.526 --> 07:39.816\n是不是應該要做一些清楚的規範跟納入這一點我想提醒吳主委在這個草案送上來之前我想要強加研究好不好那接下來我再一提一樣是請教一下吳主委我想這個黃仁勛來台這個旋風那當然您還沒跟他見面了也在想辦法應該要跟他見一見\n\n07:46.441 --> 08:04.816\n但是不管是他啦或者是這個超維啦等等都有要在台灣來做更多的一些研發中心的設立啦等等啦那不曉得您認為這一些這一連串這些旋風有助於這個AI的這個科技成果但是有沒有辦法運用在民生讓全民共享\n\n08:05.714 --> 08:32.615\n我們正在努力做這件事剛剛前面委員也有問到這個問題所以除了在算力的建置人才培育上面我們要努力之外本席有感受到您正在努力但是我們來討論一下上一週本席質詢的時候主委說當前的AI應用仍然有相當的距離那我們要循序漸進那我們看到107年我們推動四年期的台灣AI行動計畫全面要啟動AI產業化您應該清楚對不對\n\n08:35.837 --> 08:48.402\n好那根據112年國家數位發展研究報告指出我國採用智慧居家相關服務有很多的部分很多的項目不升反降如智慧家電109年15%降到112年剩下11%那智慧照顧的部分也從109年的14%往下降一樣來到這個112年13%所以為什麼\n\n08:58.806 --> 09:27.802\n我們看到這個AI科技的應用上面其實越推其實越退步這第一個第二個在一到國科會2022年台灣AI國力的調查那這一點比較重要公部門的AI成熟度的等級竟然只有3.3排名排序在倒數第三所以其實賴總統說要推這個AI之道那我們看到公部門其實還跟不上所以不管是我們剛剛說的應用在民生上面還有公部門看起來我們都沒有跟上腳步這兩個部分能不能請主委回答一下\n\n09:30.384 --> 09:38.203\n我們會努力做就這麼簡單一句話能不能告訴我一下為什麼我們在科技應用上面會越退越退步?什麼原因?\n\n09:39.574 --> 10:05.881\n我們整個公部門全國的公務機關的其實那個預算也相當的沉重那我們將來希望按照委員的建議我們希望增加能夠推動不是只有產業AI化在政府AI化的部分我們也希望能夠開啟一些新的這個方案來協助他們\n\n10:07.862 --> 10:22.610\n主委,我想我可以接受,為什麼?因為我看你講這兩題講得真的好勉強,那這個也不要再為難你,但是我希望會後針對我們剛剛說的AI科技的應用,這個不升反降,比例不升反降,還有我們公部門的這個狀況,會後還是給我一個報告好不好?\n\n10:24.731 --> 10:29.392\n最後我想行政院在今年推動AI的這個我們剛說的AI行動方案2.0期程是要在2023到2026那這整個願景是希望能夠帶動產業升級還有增進社會福祉讓台灣成為全球AI的一個新銳可是你看我們從107年我們開始推動AI然後我們在所有報告當中看到所有的數據不升反降請問一下這樣的一個計畫我們是要怎麼去\n\n10:52.678 --> 10:56.556\n去增進社會福祉這一條這你能跟我簡單說明一下嗎?\n\n10:57.937 --> 11:23.323\n我們要增進社會福祉的部分就是希望不是只有在AI的我們現在是主要是在AI的硬體的產業不是只有這個產業一直往前衝那我們希望說第一建置台灣自己的算力可以擴展AI在台灣的應用不是只有在幫國外幫國際來貢獻而已所以這個政策我們現在正在扭轉然後慢慢會把\n\n11:24.063 --> 11:39.497\n應用到各行各業的這樣的這個算力以及人力會把它增加主委我想有一些資料您會後提供給我但是本期最後提醒我想科技發展跟科技應用一樣重要我們希望齊同並進一起加油是同意謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.529,"end":0.87,"text":"萬美玲委員"},{"start":22.307,"end":43.256,"text":"主委好 主委我想這個任何的事情一定都是一體兩面的 那我們現在AI這麼高速的一個發展 誠如上一次吳組委我們在這個質詢的過程當中您有舉了一個例子說 就像這個刀可以用來做菜也許也可以做其他的 那我們看到其實在這一次我們民進黨政策會的執行長王一川有說他說"},{"start":43.996,"end":44.036,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":75.037,"end":82.344,"text":"您知道現在其實已經可以透過AI來監控電腦或者是應用軟體﹖而且可以獲得了個人的資料跟隱私了嗎?主委您的意思是說現在無法透過AI來監控?"},{"start":99.695,"end":99.875,"text":"市長市長"},{"start":107.97,"end":129.193,"text":"就我了解就是所謂的個人資料的跟個人資料儲存環境有關那他資訊系統通常會設定一些權限那從我們部的立場來看的話所謂的從資安的角度來看個人資料的儲存跟他的整個沒有我本身問題很簡單阿現在您認為是可以還是不可以就您所知要看他在應用的做得到還是做不到"},{"start":130.333,"end":149.784,"text":"如果這個資料庫是開放的 那不用AI也搜尋得到 那如果這個資料有設定良好的儲存權限以及它的這個加密的措施 不見得可以搜尋得到我想兩位一起 根據媒體的報導 我們看到全球有22%的企業是以AI來監控員工的活動數據"},{"start":151.145,"end":165.86,"text":"有17%可以監控員工的電腦使用16%則可以記錄員工的電郵所以連全球最大電商亞馬遜、星巴克、達美航空、雀巢等等這些大企業都可以透過AI新創公司來監控員工"},{"start":167.641,"end":186.13,"text":"不管是監控他們的動態、聊天記錄或是計算績效等等有不同的一個監控的方向但是雖然AI的新創公司都說他這個分析他是一個匿名的數據但是用以上這樣來看我想主委先請教您一下您認為這樣的監控有沒有侵犯隱私權或是違反個資法"},{"start":188.104,"end":191.146,"text":"市長,您的看法呢?就如剛剛蘇薇所說的,這其實如果涉及到勞動條件的部分,那這恐怕要看勞動條件的法規而定。"},{"start":210.805,"end":227.206,"text":"所以現在二位的意思是說只要內規有內規這個自己規定我們就可以無上去監控員工是這樣嗎?這個當然是並估契約是僱主跟員工簽訂的所以這個我們應該可以理解"},{"start":228.588,"end":241.528,"text":"主委、次長,我想再請教一下所以台灣的企業我們是不是一樣可以在您剛剛所上述的條件之下可以用AI來監控員工這第一個問題第二個部分我們工部門是不是也可以這樣來做用AI來監控我們公務人員的電腦可以嗎?"},{"start":243.558,"end":259.55,"text":"我們首先要說明的就是說剛才這邊所看到的資料所謂的監控或是針對員工的活動都是指他在職場場域使用公用的系統跟電腦那他所從事他職務上的行為並不包括他私人生活在裡面"},{"start":261.111,"end":281.469,"text":"市長,您剛所說的,它是公務上的一個公務使用,然後再來電腦雖然是企業或是公務的一個機關資產,但我們知道其實有很多的網頁或的程式,它其實都是需要去登入一些個人的資料,所以在AI監控員工的電腦,不管您認為這個監控能不能接受,但是它已經是一個全面性的一個蒐集這個數據,"},{"start":283.351,"end":296.966,"text":"那如果是在一個沒有告知或者同意的情況之下那根據我國個人資料保護法的規定其實已經有觸法的疑慮了所以我是想目前你們看到的可能是比較淺層面但是未來發展之後"},{"start":299.549,"end":305.516,"text":"會怎樣去在監控上面去觸法的疑慮或者是說將來有視空的狀態我想國科會跟訴發部是不是應該都要就本席今天提醒能夠再回去做一些研究那同時"},{"start":314.986,"end":331.253,"text":"我們都在講說有很多地方他其實可能匿名啊都有保護啊可是根據美國紐約大學AI NOW的研究所的報告顯示這個資訊給讓你看一下即使數據是彙整在一起或者是一個匿名的可是在保護的這個隱私上面他們認為仍然是有缺陷的"},{"start":332.194,"end":359.636,"text":"在1990年美國人口普查數據做的研究AI只有透過由地區號、出生日期跟性別它就可以辨識出87%的美國人而且歐美企業使用AI監控員工其實也引發了相關對於AI侵犯隱私權的疑慮所以我想這樣的疑慮我們也不能輕忽它也不能太胸有成竹跟自信我們除了擔憂AI會侵害人權之外我們也擔心未來AI技術的"},{"start":360.356,"end":360.716,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":386.039,"end":404.709,"text":"我們一直當然都跟國科會保持密切合作首先我們非常同意剛才委員的說法即便企業要對員工的職務上的行為作為有所了解的話他也要符合完全符合各自法的規定譬如說他必須充分的告知跟同意第二AI剛剛我們所提到的"},{"start":405.149,"end":405.369,"text":"吳主委,我想您有說"},{"start":426.617,"end":440.543,"text":"您希望在10月就會想辦法把AI基本法草案送進行政院嗎?是上次有講但是我想這個AI不管是在我剛剛本席所講的詐騙上面、監控上面甚至於將來有可能侵害到民眾的個資、隱私我想未來只會有更加嚴重的狀況所以針對AI的濫用我想國科會在AI基本法當中"},{"start":447.526,"end":459.816,"text":"是不是應該要做一些清楚的規範跟納入這一點我想提醒吳主委在這個草案送上來之前我想要強加研究好不好那接下來我再一提一樣是請教一下吳主委我想這個黃仁勛來台這個旋風那當然您還沒跟他見面了也在想辦法應該要跟他見一見"},{"start":466.441,"end":484.816,"text":"但是不管是他啦或者是這個超維啦等等都有要在台灣來做更多的一些研發中心的設立啦等等啦那不曉得您認為這一些這一連串這些旋風有助於這個AI的這個科技成果但是有沒有辦法運用在民生讓全民共享"},{"start":485.714,"end":512.615,"text":"我們正在努力做這件事剛剛前面委員也有問到這個問題所以除了在算力的建置人才培育上面我們要努力之外本席有感受到您正在努力但是我們來討論一下上一週本席質詢的時候主委說當前的AI應用仍然有相當的距離那我們要循序漸進那我們看到107年我們推動四年期的台灣AI行動計畫全面要啟動AI產業化您應該清楚對不對"},{"start":515.837,"end":528.402,"text":"好那根據112年國家數位發展研究報告指出我國採用智慧居家相關服務有很多的部分很多的項目不升反降如智慧家電109年15%降到112年剩下11%那智慧照顧的部分也從109年的14%往下降一樣來到這個112年13%所以為什麼"},{"start":538.806,"end":567.802,"text":"我們看到這個AI科技的應用上面其實越推其實越退步這第一個第二個在一到國科會2022年台灣AI國力的調查那這一點比較重要公部門的AI成熟度的等級竟然只有3.3排名排序在倒數第三所以其實賴總統說要推這個AI之道那我們看到公部門其實還跟不上所以不管是我們剛剛說的應用在民生上面還有公部門看起來我們都沒有跟上腳步這兩個部分能不能請主委回答一下"},{"start":570.384,"end":578.203,"text":"我們會努力做就這麼簡單一句話能不能告訴我一下為什麼我們在科技應用上面會越退越退步?什麼原因?"},{"start":579.574,"end":605.881,"text":"我們整個公部門全國的公務機關的其實那個預算也相當的沉重那我們將來希望按照委員的建議我們希望增加能夠推動不是只有產業AI化在政府AI化的部分我們也希望能夠開啟一些新的這個方案來協助他們"},{"start":607.862,"end":622.61,"text":"主委,我想我可以接受,為什麼?因為我看你講這兩題講得真的好勉強,那這個也不要再為難你,但是我希望會後針對我們剛剛說的AI科技的應用,這個不升反降,比例不升反降,還有我們公部門的這個狀況,會後還是給我一個報告好不好?"},{"start":624.731,"end":629.392,"text":"最後我想行政院在今年推動AI的這個我們剛說的AI行動方案2.0期程是要在2023到2026那這整個願景是希望能夠帶動產業升級還有增進社會福祉讓台灣成為全球AI的一個新銳可是你看我們從107年我們開始推動AI然後我們在所有報告當中看到所有的數據不升反降請問一下這樣的一個計畫我們是要怎麼去"},{"start":652.678,"end":656.556,"text":"去增進社會福祉這一條這你能跟我簡單說明一下嗎?"},{"start":657.937,"end":683.323,"text":"我們要增進社會福祉的部分就是希望不是只有在AI的我們現在是主要是在AI的硬體的產業不是只有這個產業一直往前衝那我們希望說第一建置台灣自己的算力可以擴展AI在台灣的應用不是只有在幫國外幫國際來貢獻而已所以這個政策我們現在正在扭轉然後慢慢會把"},{"start":684.063,"end":699.497,"text":"應用到各行各業的這樣的這個算力以及人力會把它增加主委我想有一些資料您會後提供給我但是本期最後提醒我想科技發展跟科技應用一樣重要我們希望齊同並進一起加油是同意謝謝"}]}}}}