{"id":153557,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153557","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c983d9060b80277c2fee41b4d0ae556a0d968f95e3d087843c23d6cc5b51f0f3cef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:53:14 - 10:06:49","影片長度":"00:13:35","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T09:53:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:06:49+08:00","duration":815,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時53分）謝謝召委，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有司法院刑事廳廳長，廳長今天也有來嘛。","部長還有廳長早。我想有幾個問題要來就教，今天整部科技偵查法其實人民也期待，但是人民期待的是在整個犯罪真實或整個犯罪偵防裡面可以提供偵查機關一個更強大的武器，而提供這個強大的武器是要發現真實、打擊犯罪，可是也會擔心它確實也有人權上的一個憂慮。我有幾個問題來就教，比如我們在四年前的一個科技偵查的草案，當初就是有一些人權上的爭議，像不符合需經法官審理同意以後檢方或司法警察才能執行這樣的一個法官保留規定，後來你們法務部的版本做了一些修訂，比如檢警在公共空間蒐證的時候，只能連續24小時，共計2天，超過的部分就是要法官保留，那在M化車跟手機通訊監察都是採用法官保留的一個原則，這個其實是往好的方向去做修正，代表法務部這邊其實對於這個手段也會有疑慮。進步是一件好事，但是本席還是想來就教法務部或者刑事廳廳長，這部法案你們認為有哪些地方還要再精進，會比較符合人權的保障？部長，這是你們提出來的，可能要你講你的看法會比較困難。廳長，你站在院方的看法會是怎麼樣？"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員指教。有關科技偵查法整個的修法過程，或是草案提出的過程，刑事廳一直都有參與，總共參與7次相關的審議。我們當時認為有疑慮的部分，行政院這邊、法務部這邊都已經參採了，目前為止我覺得在層級化的處理跟各個程序審查的部分，我們是可以認同的。以上。"],["莊委員瑞雄：目前你覺得可以接受，我倒認為啦，譬如我們這次的法案，我這兩天才去看了德國的刑事訴訟法，我們確實是大量地去援引它，援引人家進步的立法當然是一件好事，但是我比較擔心的就是我們只學了半套，比如部分條文採法官保留的原則，但是你卻沒有去同步採納發動的要件那種嚴謹性，跟受干預第三者的影響，又或者在告知義務或者權利救濟的部分，我們採了德國刑事訴訟法第一百零一條，強調什麼時候要告知當事人以及第三人的一個不同的規範。","我就以這次法務部提出來的第四條為例，如果調查人員認為犯罪嫌疑可能觸犯到三年以上有期徒刑之罪，必須要法官保留，才可以使用空拍機還有監看這些設備，因為可能會干涉到非當事人，可是我們同時去參考德國的刑事訴訟法100h那個地方，就是我們的法條之幾的那種設計，其中包含另外兩個但書，要有其他手段都沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實。還有第二個，針對非調查主體，你必須要有事實上跟當事人有關聯，所以我就要來請教部長或者廳長，對於制度性保障當事人跟非當事人的這個發動條件，我們把它漏掉了，這個我看廳長繼續來說好了，你認為呢？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分如果要比照通保法的部分，我想委員應該有看過德國刑事訴訟法相關的通訊監察規定，它也是用列舉的重罪原則或是列舉的罪名，包括所謂的最後手段性原則或者叫做侵害最小原則，用這個方式來做處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然啊，你這個叫做制式教科書講法。"],["李廳長釱任：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是，你對這些不相干的人造成的損害，你怎麼辦？造成的影響啦，我們別說損害，因為你的這個設計，你看到第七條，那個是有霸王條款耶！霸王條款是很可怕的，我是認為法務部跟德國的版本有一個基礎的概念，就是犯罪嫌疑如果是重大的，經過法官保留，可以採用科技偵查這樣的一個極端的手段，可是我們去抄德國刑事訴訟法，我為什麼說你只抄了半套？他們是你要窮盡你現在所有的手段，沒有辦法以後，你才可以去向法官聲請，不是這樣嗎？可是我們……好啦，你點頭了，你現在的設計不是喔，廳長，你現在的設計不是喔！"],["李廳長釱任：跟委員……"],["莊委員瑞雄：因為科技偵查會極度侵害到人權，可能會影響到第三人。羅智強委員剛剛提的部分是一般民眾，這個不管是誰來執政，你賦予政府太大的一個權力，其實都無可避免，第一個想到的就是會有政爭的問題，這個你們不要開玩笑，你們當部長的、當廳長的，你們下來以後也是一般老百姓啊，司法人員搞不好覺得你們以前壞得要死，換我來調查你，這個人性都很難去講啦！所以我的意思是，我們設計一套法律的時候，應該設計一個不管是誰來執政，都要讓他們覺得我來使用這個沒有人權上的疑慮，因為你如果用法務部的版本，會變成我今天去調查一個罪行重大的嫌疑犯，經過法官保留以後就可以直接用最極端的手段，你說我們抄人家的，但抄半套，就沒有窮盡一切偵查手段的精神在啦，我擔心的是這個。你現在也開始點頭了，所以我要請教的就是，你們有沒有可能有再調整的地方？有沒有可能，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實我們現在的科技偵查僅限於第二條，就是GPS，還有第三條M化車跟第四條熱顯像儀這一種的設備，事實上，這個對於人，因為它不可錄音，也不能刺探內容，所以它只是追蹤那個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個我知道啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個賦予偵查人員更強大的武器，這個我知道啦！你們在說的是武器對等，但是我講的是當事人人權的保障，你的射程範圍啦！譬如你目前的版本限三種態樣需告知受調查的當事人而已喔！第一個，經法院許可的；第二個，緊急狀況經過法院核發的；第三個，緊急狀況經法院停止以後施行調查的。以你現在目前草案的設計，你去看，只要沒有超過24小時的，我就一天叫一個年輕的，譬如我說部長，跟一下羅智強，跟著他23小時就好、拍個23小時就好，還是不要連續超過兩天，這樣就好。事後偵查人員他哪有可能跟你說他補發一個通知書給你，這個部分我們就有疏漏了。廳長，不是嗎？你是院方喔！而且第七條的霸王條款，緊急狀況實施科技偵查三天內都可以事後來追認，沒人知道，你就這樣閃過去了啦！我的意思就是叫你們重新再考慮一下，有一個好處，你事後才可以去追蹤來看看我們這部法令通過以後，我們有沒有超越人權保障，還是我們會比較不好意思，我們用這個手段，這個武器這麼好用，大家動不動也想要用這個最極端的，大砲就拿出來了，會有這樣子啦！我比較擔心……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其實因為短期24小時那個影響、干預是非常輕微的，所以這部分我們就……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，干預當然我知道你們會認為輕微，但是輕不輕微，每一個人的判斷會有所不同，但是在這個過程裡面，我會擔心造成浮濫，然後大家馬上都跳到第七條去，我要跟你說的是，哪怕是剛才羅智強在質詢的部分，他也是擔心這個，民眾一定希望你們有更好的武器去打擊犯罪，可是民眾真的還是會有這樣的一個疑慮，像我就會有這個疑慮，我認為這有疑慮啊！如果是在過去，你去看以前馬王政爭的時候，「夭壽」！如果還有這部法律，人性！我跟你說，大家都會選那個最極端的、最好用的，我擔心的是這個啦！倒不是跟你提出來，像有些質疑的人都是惡意在阻擋你們，把疑慮解除掉，其實這個法律搞不好大家認為棒！馬上讓它通過。但是我就發現，我們去抄德國刑事訴訟法，我們就真的抄了半套，後面那部分像救濟，你要怎麼救濟？廳長，你們要怎麼救濟？你那個24小時的以及沒有超過兩天的，沒有救濟啊！都白看的啊！愛怎麼看就怎麼看，羅智強你就變透明人，任何人都會變透明人，我擔心的會是這個啦！只要不要超過24小時就好了，整天叫一個年輕人來跟著你，有沒有這個問題？廳長，有沒有這個問題？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分事實上我們在草案研議的時候，當時有跟法務部那邊提出了一些看法，認為在透過行政的開案程序，警察機關在實施科技偵查的時候，他記得要做行政開案，開案之後才可以追蹤他到底有沒有超過24小時，或是累計超過兩天。在事後可能就行政監督的方式來做處理，但是超過……"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，我知道，我知道你們會講到行政監督。好啦！如果我是刑事警察局或是如果我是調查局，檢察官、法官事後根本就不會想去監督啦！就是輕微嘛！23小時，沒有超過24小時，或是沒有連續超過兩天嘛。我的意思是，你怎麼樣去踐行通知當事人的程序，這個部分我們有漏掉，我之所以會特別點出這個，就是因為第七條是一個帝王條款，那個是最嚴重的，我把你搭配起來之後，那個不超過兩小時。還是你那個射程，比方我有夠倒楣，我今天跟羅智強在一起之後，你是要看羅智強，卻連我也都拍下去了，會有這個問題，不是沒有啊！這個不管是誰當家、誰執政都會碰到這個問題，我都會提出來。"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於這一種，我們會做一個內控的機制。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就知道你會說內控，我也知道你會說內控，可是我的意思是，我不知道前面有沒有人問到，我也覺得很奇怪，像這一部法，為什麼這一些不放在刑事訴訟法裡面就好？你的救濟，你說裁定要撤銷跟變更的部分，準用刑事訴訟法，準用刑事訴訟法是檢察官跟法官而已，可是如果司法警察或者調查人員，要怎麼辦？這要怎麼救濟？如果是你法官下的或者你檢察官下的，可以啊！但是問題這些不是，你要怎麼救濟？你這個範圍……所以我就比較針對救濟這個部分，因為涉及到你要去發現真實、打擊犯罪，我相信立法院這邊大家都會給你贊同，可是提出的這些人權保障的疑慮，因為畢竟這是科技在偵查，你要去發現、追訴犯罪，然後讓刑法權來具體的實現，我相信大家都不會質疑，但是這個法定程序跟保障這些，以上我提出的這幾個，剛剛看廳長也一直有辦法對話，但是提出來法務部的這個地方，我就不曉得你們有沒有可能就這個部分再去做加強或者去調整，會啊！真的會有我提出的問題啊！剛才廳長跟我說是行政的內控而已啊！但是內控是你們自己，你們如果沒有內控呢？會有這個問題。簡單回答一下吧，好不好，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法律當然是沒有規定內控機制，但是整個通過後，我們會訂定內控跟稽核的一個要點，這部分我也是要管制。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我比較擔心的是，真的只抄一半而已！"],["鄭部長銘謙：請委員放心，這個我們會……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，因為德國刑事訴訟法的部分，你們真的把它弄一半進來，像我剛才說的那個部分就漏掉了，我是認為可以再討論一下，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員、謝謝鄭部長、謝謝廳長。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄代）：接下來請鍾佳濱鍾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-30","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","黃國昌","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11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\"我們同時去參考德國的刑事訴訟法那個100H那個地方就是我們知己那個設計其中另外兩個包含的一個但書裡面要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實其他手段都沒有辦法還有第二個就針對非調查主體你必須要事實上跟當事人有關聯\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 214.708, \"end\": 214.948, \"score\": 0.604}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 214.948, \"end\": 215.328, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 215.328, \"end\": 215.629, \"score\": 0.549}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 215.629, \"end\": 215.849, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"德\", \"start\": 215.849, \"end\": 216.169, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 216.169, \"end\": 216.329, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 216.329, \"end\": 216.509, \"score\": 0.652}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 216.509, \"end\": 216.909, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"訴\"}, {\"word\": \"訟\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 216.909, \"end\": 217.05, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 217.05, \"end\": 217.65, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": 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225.495, \"end\": 225.855, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"手\", \"start\": 225.855, \"end\": 226.195, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 226.195, \"end\": 226.555, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 226.555, \"end\": 226.695, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 226.695, \"end\": 226.935, \"score\": 0.531}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 226.935, \"end\": 227.316, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 227.316, \"end\": 227.496, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 227.496, \"end\": 227.576, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 227.576, \"end\": 227.816, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 227.816, \"end\": 227.956, \"score\": 0.704}, {\"word\": \"罪\", \"start\": 227.956, \"end\": 228.116, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 228.116, \"end\": 229.097, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 229.097, \"end\": 229.237, 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247.805, \"text\": \"所以我就要來請教部長或者廳長對於制度性保障當事人跟非當事人的這個發動條件我們把他漏掉了。這個我看聽到你繼續講你認為呢?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 236.321, \"end\": 236.401, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 236.401, \"end\": 236.481, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 236.481, \"end\": 236.621, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 236.621, \"end\": 236.741, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 236.741, \"end\": 237.321, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 237.321, \"end\": 237.581, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 237.581, \"end\": 237.882, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 237.882, \"end\": 237.982, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 237.982, \"end\": 238.342, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"廳\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 238.342, \"end\": 239.562, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 239.562, 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{\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 244.464, \"end\": 245.824, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 245.824, \"end\": 246.044, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 246.044, \"end\": 246.144, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 246.144, \"end\": 246.284, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"漏\", \"start\": 246.284, \"end\": 246.464, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"掉\", \"start\": 246.464, \"end\": 246.644, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 246.644, \"end\": 247.445, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 247.445, \"end\": 247.485, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 247.485, \"end\": 247.545, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 247.545, \"end\": 247.565, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 247.565, \"end\": 247.645, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 247.645, \"end\": 247.785, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 247.785, \"end\": 247.805, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 251.843, \"end\": 279.317, \"text\": \"這個部分如果要比照所謂的通保法的部分我想在我應該有看過的行事書那個德國行事書他有相關的通信監察的部分的規定的話他也是用列舉的重罪原則或是列舉的罪名那包括所謂的罪惡手段性原則或者叫做侵害罪小原則用這個方式來做處理當然啊你這叫做自視教科書講法對對對我的意思說那你對這一些那個其他人不相干的人造成的損害你怎麼辦的影響啦他不要說損害啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 251.843, \"end\": 251.983, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 251.983, \"end\": 252.143, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 252.143, \"end\": 252.304, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 252.304, \"end\": 252.444, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 252.444, \"end\": 252.804, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 252.804, \"end\": 253.044, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 253.044, \"end\": 253.364, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 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\"部\", \"start\": 813.624, \"end\": 813.645, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,265 --> 00:00:11,768\n謝謝張偉有請我們法務部正部長有請正部長我們司法院那個刑事廳廳長好吧廳長今天也有來部長早還有廳長那我想幾個問題要來就教就是說今天我們這整個科技偵查法這個其實是\n\n2\n00:00:35,486 --> 00:00:37,748\n檢查及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n3\n00:00:53,459 --> 00:01:17,060\n也會擔心確實有人權上的一個憂慮讓我幾個問題來就教就是說你比如說我們在四年前科技偵查的一個草案當初就是有一些人權上的一個爭議像是比如說不符合這個虛情法官審理同意以後檢方或司法警察才能執行的法官保留這樣一個規定後來我們法務部去做了版本去做了一些修訂\n\n4\n00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,221\n錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n5\n00:01:35,872 --> 00:02:03,080\n這個代表法務部這邊其實也對這個手段啊你們也會有疑慮啦這進步是一個好事啊但是本席還是想來就叫法務部或者說刑事廳廳長就是說這部法案法案你們認為有哪些地方還要精進的地方比較符合人群的一個保障我對你的看法還是這人站出來你可能跟你講比較困難聽到你的看法你站在院方的看法你的看法會怎麼樣\n\n6\n00:02:04,684 --> 00:02:32,294\n謝謝委員指教有關於科技偵查法這個整個立法過程修法過程或是草案提出的過程行政院一直都有參與參與七次的相關的審議那我們認為我們當時所認為有疑慮的部分那行政院這邊法務部這邊都已經參裁了就目前為止我覺得在成績化的處理跟各個程序的審查的部分我覺得是我們認為目前我們是可以認同的以上\n\n7\n00:02:32,858 --> 00:02:33,259\n錢防制法修正草案案案。\n\n8\n00:02:39,042 --> 00:03:05,388\n我這兩天才去看了德國的刑事訴訟法了那我們確實是去大量的去援引他援引人家進步的立法當然是一個好事啊但是我比較擔心的就是我們學了半套學了半套你像比如說你這個部分條文採法官保留的原則但是你卻沒有去同步採納發動的要見那種嚴謹性跟受干預第三者的這樣的一個影響\n\n9\n00:03:06,528 --> 00:03:16,955\n又或者說你在告知義務或者在權力救濟的部分我們去採了德國行動訴訟法第101條強調什麼時候要告知當事人以第三人的不同的一個規範我就以這次法務部提出來的第四條為例所以如果調查人員認為犯罪嫌疑可能觸犯到三年以上有歧途刑必須要法官保留才可以使用空拍機還有監看這些設備因為可能會干涉到非當事人可是\n\n10\n00:03:34,708 --> 00:03:54,960\n我們同時去參考德國的刑事訴訟法那個100H那個地方就是我們知己那個設計其中另外兩個包含的一個但書裡面要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實其他手段都沒有辦法還有第二個就針對非調查主體你必須要事實上跟當事人有關聯\n\n11\n00:03:56,321 --> 00:04:07,805\n所以我就要來請教部長或者廳長對於制度性保障當事人跟非當事人的這個發動條件我們把他漏掉了。這個我看聽到你繼續講你認為呢?\n\n12\n00:04:11,843 --> 00:04:39,317\n這個部分如果要比照所謂的通保法的部分我想在我應該有看過的行事書那個德國行事書他有相關的通信監察的部分的規定的話他也是用列舉的重罪原則或是列舉的罪名那包括所謂的罪惡手段性原則或者叫做侵害罪小原則用這個方式來做處理當然啊你這叫做自視教科書講法對對對我的意思說那你對這一些那個其他人不相干的人造成的損害你怎麼辦的影響啦他不要說損害啊\n\n13\n00:04:41,414 --> 00:05:10,313\n因為你這個設計喔你那個到第七條那個是有霸王條款捏你那霸王條款是很可怕的捏我是認為啦法務部跟德國的版本有一個基礎的概念就是說犯罪嫌疑如果是重大經過法官保留可以採用科技偵查這樣的一個極端的一個手段可是呢德國刑事訴訟法我們去抄到為什麼說你抄了半套他們是你要窮盡一些必要的那個你現在的一個手段沒有辦法以後啊你才可以去向法官來申請啊\n\n14\n00:05:11,533 --> 00:05:13,936\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n15\n00:05:30,684 --> 00:05:47,323\n這個不管誰來執政啊你賦予政府太大的這樣一個權利喔其實喔都無可避免第一個想到的就是說會有政爭的問題啊這你有沒有開玩笑欸這有些你做部長的、你做廳長的、你落後了也是一般老百姓啊司法人員搞不好\n\n16\n00:05:48,424 --> 00:05:49,485\n錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案\n\n17\n00:06:06,804 --> 00:06:30,638\n你如果用法務部的版本會變成說我今天去調查一個罪行重大的一個嫌疑犯經過法官保留以後呢就可以直接用最極端的手段你說變成我們去抄人家就沒有窮盡一切這個偵查的手段的精神在啦我擔心的是這個啊所以你現在也開始在點頭啊所以我要請教的就是說你們有沒有可能在調整的一個地方有沒有可能部長\n\n18\n00:06:36,676 --> 00:06:56,611\n其實我們現在的科技科技偵查方針線裡第二條就是GPS還有第三條M花車跟第四條的那種熱血性的這一種的設備事實上這個對人的因為他不可錄音嘛他不可錄音也不能吃他那個內容嘛所以他只是只是追蹤那個學習\n\n19\n00:06:57,972 --> 00:07:00,714\n負以偵查人員更強大的武器武器對黨但是我講的是說當事人人權的一個保障你的射程的一個範圍你像比如說你現在目前的版本線三種太陽區告知受調查的當事人而已\n\n20\n00:07:19,884 --> 00:07:25,886\n第一個法案許可的或者緊急狀況經過法案核發的緊急狀況經法院停職以後來進行施行調查的這一些以現在的目前草案的一個設計的話你去看你若我資料若沒有超過24小時的我若一天叫一個年輕人說來保證我都自己先給你兌一兌23小時就好給你卸23小時就好或是連鎖不要超過兩天這樣就好\n\n21\n00:07:42,310 --> 00:07:44,031\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n22\n00:07:52,588 --> 00:08:04,998\n不是嘛,你是院方喔,以下你們第七條的法王條款、緊急狀況、實施科技偵查三天內都可以事後來追認喔,沒人知道你就給我閃過了啦。我的意思就是說,叫你們重新再考慮一下有一個好處,你事後才可以去追蹤,來看看說我們這副法令通過以後,我們有沒有去超越人權保障,還是說我們會比較不好意思,我們用這個手段喔,\n\n23\n00:08:21,932 --> 00:08:24,819\n洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n24\n00:08:29,209 --> 00:08:33,371\n乾綠是當然我知道你們會認為輕微但是輕不輕微啊每一個人的判斷會有所不同但是在這個過程裡面我會擔心造成腐爛然後大家一馬上都跳到第七條去\n\n25\n00:08:57,809 --> 00:09:14,592\n我還要跟你說的就哪怕是剛羅志強在他在質詢的部分他也是他也是自己擔心這個喔民眾一定希望你們有更好的武器去打擊犯罪可是呢他真的民眾還是會有這樣的一個疑慮像我就會有這個疑慮啊我認為這個有疑慮啊這如果過去你看以前馬王正正的孫子吼夭壽喔這波如果還有這個法律下去喔\n\n26\n00:09:24,522 --> 00:09:49,038\n人性,我告訴你,大家都會怕那個最極端的啦,最好用的啦,我擔心的是這個啦,倒不是跟你提出來,有些質疑人都是拍耳,在阻擋你,把餘力把它解除掉的話,這個其實大家,這個法律搞不好大家認為,噢,棒,漂亮好過啦,但是我就認為,我就發現說,我們去抄德國刑事訴訟法,我們就把,我們就真的抄了半套啦。阿比,那個博恩,你想救濟那個,你要怎麼救濟?\n\n27\n00:09:55,186 --> 00:10:00,251\n庭長,你怎麼這麼糾激?你24小時沒有超過兩天的啦,沒有糾激啊,都白看的啊。愛怎麼看就怎麼看。羅志強你就變透明人,誰任何人都會變透明人,我擔心的會有這個啦。我就不要超過24小時就好了啊,整天叫個年輕人跟你們對啊。\n\n28\n00:10:15,712 --> 00:10:30,601\n有沒有這個問題來清檔你有沒有這個問題這個事實上在我們在草案演繹的時候當時有跟法務部那邊有一些提出有一些看法那我說在透過行政的開案的程序就是說警察機關在實施科技偵查的時候他記得要做行政開案那開案的時候才可以追蹤他到底有沒有超過24小時或是累計超過兩天這部分那在事後你可以用行政監督的方式來做處理\n\n29\n00:10:40,467 --> 00:10:41,667\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n30\n00:11:07,332 --> 00:11:09,094\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案。\n\n31\n00:11:18,809 --> 00:11:20,210\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n32\n00:11:49,653 --> 00:11:50,954\n審查及保障法草案案案。\n\n33\n00:12:03,985 --> 00:12:05,986\n你這個範圍所以我就比較針對這個救濟這個部分因為涉及到說你要去發見真實打擊犯罪我相信立法院這邊大家都會給你贊同可是提出了這些人權保障的疑慮因為畢竟這是科技在偵查\n\n34\n00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:47,710\n你要去發現追溯犯罪然後把讓這個刑法權來具體的一個實現我向大家都不會質疑啊但這個法定程序跟保障這個我以上我提出了這幾個我都要看廳長你還一直覺得我都對話但是提出來的法務部這個地方我就不曉得裡面有沒有可能這個部分再去做加強或者去調整\n\n35\n00:12:49,437 --> 00:12:50,138\n洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n36\n00:13:04,232 --> 00:13:30,848\n這部分我們這個這個法律當然是沒有規定那個內空機制但是我們會整個通過我們會會做一個訂定一個內空的一個一個內空跟集合的一個要點這部分我一定要管制我比較煩惱的是今天吵一半而已啊今天我們就啊這個請委員放心這個我們會會是因為行德國刑事署啊部分你今天給他衝一半去買啊你像我剛才講的那個保文就漏掉了我是認為可以再討論一下啦好不好啊\n\n37\n00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:33,645\n好謝謝莊委員謝謝鄭部長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7265\t11768\t謝謝張偉有請我們法務部正部長有請正部長我們司法院那個刑事廳廳長好吧廳長今天也有來部長早還有廳長那我想幾個問題要來就教就是說今天我們這整個科技偵查法這個其實是\n35486\t37748\t檢查及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案\n53459\t77060\t也會擔心確實有人權上的一個憂慮讓我幾個問題來就教就是說你比如說我們在四年前科技偵查的一個草案當初就是有一些人權上的一個爭議像是比如說不符合這個虛情法官審理同意以後檢方或司法警察才能執行的法官保留這樣一個規定後來我們法務部去做了版本去做了一些修訂\n77760\t79221\t錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n95872\t123080\t這個代表法務部這邊其實也對這個手段啊你們也會有疑慮啦這進步是一個好事啊但是本席還是想來就叫法務部或者說刑事廳廳長就是說這部法案法案你們認為有哪些地方還要精進的地方比較符合人群的一個保障我對你的看法還是這人站出來你可能跟你講比較困難聽到你的看法你站在院方的看法你的看法會怎麼樣\n124684\t152294\t謝謝委員指教有關於科技偵查法這個整個立法過程修法過程或是草案提出的過程行政院一直都有參與參與七次的相關的審議那我們認為我們當時所認為有疑慮的部分那行政院這邊法務部這邊都已經參裁了就目前為止我覺得在成績化的處理跟各個程序的審查的部分我覺得是我們認為目前我們是可以認同的以上\n152858\t153259\t錢防制法修正草案案 案。\n159042\t185388\t我這兩天才去看了德國的刑事訴訟法了那我們確實是去大量的去援引他援引人家進步的立法當然是一個好事啊但是我比較擔心的就是我們學了半套學了半套你像比如說你這個部分條文採法官保留的原則但是你卻沒有去同步採納發動的要見那種嚴謹性跟受干預第三者的這樣的一個影響\n186528\t196955\t又或者說你在告知義務或者在權力救濟的部分我們去採了德國行動訴訟法第101條強調什麼時候要告知當事人以第三人的不同的一個規範我就以這次法務部提出來的第四條為例所以如果調查人員認為犯罪嫌疑可能觸犯到三年以上有歧途刑必須要法官保留才可以使用空拍機還有監看這些設備因為可能會干涉到非當事人可是\n214708\t234960\t我們同時去參考德國的刑事訴訟法那個100H那個地方就是我們知己那個設計其中另外兩個包含的一個但書裡面要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實其他手段都沒有辦法還有第二個就針對非調查主體你必須要事實上跟當事人有關聯\n236321\t247805\t所以我就要來請教部長或者廳長對於制度性保障當事人跟非當事人的這個發動條件我們把他漏掉了。這個我看聽到你繼續講你認為呢?\n251843\t279317\t這個部分如果要比照所謂的通保法的部分我想在我應該有看過的行事書那個德國行事書他有相關的通信監察的部分的規定的話他也是用列舉的重罪原則或是列舉的罪名那包括所謂的罪惡手段性原則或者叫做侵害罪小原則用這個方式來做處理當然啊你這叫做自視教科書講法對對對我的意思說那你對這一些那個其他人不相干的人造成的損害你怎麼辦的影響啦他不要說損害啊\n281414\t310313\t因為你這個設計喔你那個到第七條那個是有霸王條款捏你那霸王條款是很可怕的捏我是認為啦法務部跟德國的版本有一個基礎的概念就是說犯罪嫌疑如果是重大經過法官保留可以採用科技偵查這樣的一個極端的一個手段可是呢德國刑事訴訟法我們去抄到為什麼說你抄了半套他們是你要窮盡一些必要的那個你現在的一個手段沒有辦法以後啊你才可以去向法官來申請啊\n311533\t313936\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n330684\t347323\t這個不管誰來執政啊你賦予政府太大的這樣一個權利喔其實喔都無可避免第一個想到的就是說會有政爭的問題啊這你有沒有開玩笑欸這有些你做部長的、你做廳長的、你落後了也是一般老百姓啊司法人員搞不好\n348424\t349485\t錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案\n366804\t390638\t你如果用法務部的版本會變成說我今天去調查一個罪行重大的一個嫌疑犯經過法官保留以後呢就可以直接用最極端的手段你說變成我們去抄人家就沒有窮盡一切這個偵查的手段的精神在啦我擔心的是這個啊所以你現在也開始在點頭啊所以我要請教的就是說你們有沒有可能在調整的一個地方有沒有可能部長\n396676\t416611\t其實我們現在的科技科技偵查方針線裡第二條就是GPS還有第三條M花車跟第四條的那種熱血性的這一種的設備事實上這個對人的因為他不可錄音嘛他不可錄音也不能吃他那個內容嘛所以他只是只是追蹤那個學習\n417972\t420714\t負以偵查人員更強大的武器 武器對黨但是我講的是說當事人人權的一個保障你的射程的一個範圍你像比如說你現在目前的版本線三種太陽區告知受調查的當事人而已\n439884\t445886\t第一個法案許可的或者緊急狀況經過法案核發的緊急狀況經法院停職以後來進行施行調查的這一些以現在的目前草案的一個設計的話你去看你若我資料若沒有超過24小時的我若一天叫一個年輕人說來保證我都自己先給你兌一兌23小時就好給你卸23小時就好或是連鎖不要超過兩天這樣就好\n462310\t464031\t錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n472588\t484998\t不是嘛,你是院方喔,以下你們第七條的法王條款、緊急狀況、實施科技偵查三天內都可以事後來追認喔,沒人知道你就給我閃過了啦。我的意思就是說,叫你們重新再考慮一下有一個好處,你事後才可以去追蹤,來看看說我們這副法令通過以後,我們有沒有去超越人權保障,還是說我們會比較不好意思,我們用這個手段喔,\n501932\t504819\t洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n509209\t513371\t乾綠是當然我知道你們會認為輕微但是輕不輕微啊每一個人的判斷會有所不同但是在這個過程裡面我會擔心造成腐爛然後大家一馬上都跳到第七條去\n537809\t554592\t我還要跟你說的就哪怕是剛羅志強在他在質詢的部分他也是他也是自己擔心這個喔民眾一定希望你們有更好的武器去打擊犯罪可是呢他真的民眾還是會有這樣的一個疑慮像我就會有這個疑慮啊我認為這個有疑慮啊這如果過去你看以前馬王正正的孫子吼夭壽喔這波如果還有這個法律下去喔\n564522\t589038\t人性,我告訴你,大家都會怕那個最極端的啦,最好用的啦,我擔心的是這個啦,倒不是跟你提出來,有些質疑人都是拍耳,在阻擋你,把餘力把它解除掉的話,這個其實大家,這個法律搞不好大家認為,噢,棒,漂亮好過啦,但是我就認為,我就發現說,我們去抄德國刑事訴訟法,我們就把,我們就真的抄了半套啦。阿比,那個博恩,你想救濟那個,你要怎麼救濟?\n595186\t600251\t庭長,你怎麼這麼糾激?你24小時沒有超過兩天的啦,沒有糾激啊,都白看的啊。愛怎麼看就怎麼看。羅志強你就變透明人,誰任何人都會變透明人,我擔心的會有這個啦。我就不要超過24小時就好了啊,整天叫個年輕人跟你們對啊。\n615712\t630601\t有沒有這個問題來清檔你有沒有這個問題這個事實上在我們在草案演繹的時候當時有跟法務部那邊有一些提出有一些看法那我說在透過行政的開案的程序就是說警察機關在實施科技偵查的時候他記得要做行政開案那開案的時候才可以追蹤他到底有沒有超過24小時或是累計超過兩天這部分那在事後你可以用行政監督的方式來做處理\n640467\t641667\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n667332\t669094\t錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。\n678809\t680210\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n709653\t710954\t審查及保障法草案案 案。\n723985\t725986\t你這個範圍所以我就比較針對這個救濟這個部分因為涉及到說你要去發見真實打擊犯罪我相信立法院這邊大家都會給你贊同可是提出了這些人權保障的疑慮因為畢竟這是科技在偵查\n744600\t767710\t你要去發現追溯犯罪然後把讓這個刑法權來具體的一個實現我向大家都不會質疑啊但這個法定程序跟保障這個我以上我提出了這幾個我都要看廳長你還一直覺得我都對話但是提出來的法務部這個地方我就不曉得裡面有沒有可能這個部分再去做加強或者去調整\n769437\t770138\t洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n784232\t810848\t這部分我們這個這個法律當然是沒有規定那個內空機制但是我們會整個通過我們會會做一個訂定一個內空的一個一個內空跟集合的一個要點這部分我一定要管制我比較煩惱的是今天吵一半而已啊今天我們就啊這個請委員放心這個我們會會是因為行 德國刑事署啊部分你今天給他衝一半去買啊你像我剛才講的那個保文就漏掉了我是認為可以再討論一下啦好不好啊\n813240\t813645\t好謝謝莊委員謝謝鄭部長謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝張偉有請我們法務部正部長有請正部長我們司法院那個刑事廳廳長好吧廳長今天也有來部長早還有廳長那我想幾個問題要來就教就是說今天我們這整個科技偵查法這個其實是\n檢查及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案\n也會擔心確實有人權上的一個憂慮讓我幾個問題來就教就是說你比如說我們在四年前科技偵查的一個草案當初就是有一些人權上的一個爭議像是比如說不符合這個虛情法官審理同意以後檢方或司法警察才能執行的法官保留這樣一個規定後來我們法務部去做了版本去做了一些修訂\n錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n這個代表法務部這邊其實也對這個手段啊你們也會有疑慮啦這進步是一個好事啊但是本席還是想來就叫法務部或者說刑事廳廳長就是說這部法案法案你們認為有哪些地方還要精進的地方比較符合人群的一個保障我對你的看法還是這人站出來你可能跟你講比較困難聽到你的看法你站在院方的看法你的看法會怎麼樣\n謝謝委員指教有關於科技偵查法這個整個立法過程修法過程或是草案提出的過程行政院一直都有參與參與七次的相關的審議那我們認為我們當時所認為有疑慮的部分那行政院這邊法務部這邊都已經參裁了就目前為止我覺得在成績化的處理跟各個程序的審查的部分我覺得是我們認為目前我們是可以認同的以上\n錢防制法修正草案案 案。\n我這兩天才去看了德國的刑事訴訟法了那我們確實是去大量的去援引他援引人家進步的立法當然是一個好事啊但是我比較擔心的就是我們學了半套學了半套你像比如說你這個部分條文採法官保留的原則但是你卻沒有去同步採納發動的要見那種嚴謹性跟受干預第三者的這樣的一個影響\n又或者說你在告知義務或者在權力救濟的部分我們去採了德國行動訴訟法第101條強調什麼時候要告知當事人以第三人的不同的一個規範我就以這次法務部提出來的第四條為例所以如果調查人員認為犯罪嫌疑可能觸犯到三年以上有歧途刑必須要法官保留才可以使用空拍機還有監看這些設備因為可能會干涉到非當事人可是\n我們同時去參考德國的刑事訴訟法那個100H那個地方就是我們知己那個設計其中另外兩個包含的一個但書裡面要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實其他手段都沒有辦法還有第二個就針對非調查主體你必須要事實上跟當事人有關聯\n所以我就要來請教部長或者廳長對於制度性保障當事人跟非當事人的這個發動條件我們把他漏掉了。這個我看聽到你繼續講你認為呢?\n這個部分如果要比照所謂的通保法的部分我想在我應該有看過的行事書那個德國行事書他有相關的通信監察的部分的規定的話他也是用列舉的重罪原則或是列舉的罪名那包括所謂的罪惡手段性原則或者叫做侵害罪小原則用這個方式來做處理當然啊你這叫做自視教科書講法對對對我的意思說那你對這一些那個其他人不相干的人造成的損害你怎麼辦的影響啦他不要說損害啊\n因為你這個設計喔你那個到第七條那個是有霸王條款捏你那霸王條款是很可怕的捏我是認為啦法務部跟德國的版本有一個基礎的概念就是說犯罪嫌疑如果是重大經過法官保留可以採用科技偵查這樣的一個極端的一個手段可是呢德國刑事訴訟法我們去抄到為什麼說你抄了半套他們是你要窮盡一些必要的那個你現在的一個手段沒有辦法以後啊你才可以去向法官來申請啊\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n這個不管誰來執政啊你賦予政府太大的這樣一個權利喔其實喔都無可避免第一個想到的就是說會有政爭的問題啊這你有沒有開玩笑欸這有些你做部長的、你做廳長的、你落後了也是一般老百姓啊司法人員搞不好\n錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案\n你如果用法務部的版本會變成說我今天去調查一個罪行重大的一個嫌疑犯經過法官保留以後呢就可以直接用最極端的手段你說變成我們去抄人家就沒有窮盡一切這個偵查的手段的精神在啦我擔心的是這個啊所以你現在也開始在點頭啊所以我要請教的就是說你們有沒有可能在調整的一個地方有沒有可能部長\n其實我們現在的科技科技偵查方針線裡第二條就是GPS還有第三條M花車跟第四條的那種熱血性的這一種的設備事實上這個對人的因為他不可錄音嘛他不可錄音也不能吃他那個內容嘛所以他只是只是追蹤那個學習\n負以偵查人員更強大的武器 武器對黨但是我講的是說當事人人權的一個保障你的射程的一個範圍你像比如說你現在目前的版本線三種太陽區告知受調查的當事人而已\n第一個法案許可的或者緊急狀況經過法案核發的緊急狀況經法院停職以後來進行施行調查的這一些以現在的目前草案的一個設計的話你去看你若我資料若沒有超過24小時的我若一天叫一個年輕人說來保證我都自己先給你兌一兌23小時就好給你卸23小時就好或是連鎖不要超過兩天這樣就好\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n不是嘛,你是院方喔,以下你們第七條的法王條款、緊急狀況、實施科技偵查三天內都可以事後來追認喔,沒人知道你就給我閃過了啦。我的意思就是說,叫你們重新再考慮一下有一個好處,你事後才可以去追蹤,來看看說我們這副法令通過以後,我們有沒有去超越人權保障,還是說我們會比較不好意思,我們用這個手段喔,\n洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n乾綠是當然我知道你們會認為輕微但是輕不輕微啊每一個人的判斷會有所不同但是在這個過程裡面我會擔心造成腐爛然後大家一馬上都跳到第七條去\n我還要跟你說的就哪怕是剛羅志強在他在質詢的部分他也是他也是自己擔心這個喔民眾一定希望你們有更好的武器去打擊犯罪可是呢他真的民眾還是會有這樣的一個疑慮像我就會有這個疑慮啊我認為這個有疑慮啊這如果過去你看以前馬王正正的孫子吼夭壽喔這波如果還有這個法律下去喔\n人性,我告訴你,大家都會怕那個最極端的啦,最好用的啦,我擔心的是這個啦,倒不是跟你提出來,有些質疑人都是拍耳,在阻擋你,把餘力把它解除掉的話,這個其實大家,這個法律搞不好大家認為,噢,棒,漂亮好過啦,但是我就認為,我就發現說,我們去抄德國刑事訴訟法,我們就把,我們就真的抄了半套啦。阿比,那個博恩,你想救濟那個,你要怎麼救濟?\n庭長,你怎麼這麼糾激?你24小時沒有超過兩天的啦,沒有糾激啊,都白看的啊。愛怎麼看就怎麼看。羅志強你就變透明人,誰任何人都會變透明人,我擔心的會有這個啦。我就不要超過24小時就好了啊,整天叫個年輕人跟你們對啊。\n有沒有這個問題來清檔你有沒有這個問題這個事實上在我們在草案演繹的時候當時有跟法務部那邊有一些提出有一些看法那我說在透過行政的開案的程序就是說警察機關在實施科技偵查的時候他記得要做行政開案那開案的時候才可以追蹤他到底有沒有超過24小時或是累計超過兩天這部分那在事後你可以用行政監督的方式來做處理\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n審查及保障法草案案 案。\n你這個範圍所以我就比較針對這個救濟這個部分因為涉及到說你要去發見真實打擊犯罪我相信立法院這邊大家都會給你贊同可是提出了這些人權保障的疑慮因為畢竟這是科技在偵查\n你要去發現追溯犯罪然後把讓這個刑法權來具體的一個實現我向大家都不會質疑啊但這個法定程序跟保障這個我以上我提出了這幾個我都要看廳長你還一直覺得我都對話但是提出來的法務部這個地方我就不曉得裡面有沒有可能這個部分再去做加強或者去調整\n洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n這部分我們這個這個法律當然是沒有規定那個內空機制但是我們會整個通過我們會會做一個訂定一個內空的一個一個內空跟集合的一個要點這部分我一定要管制我比較煩惱的是今天吵一半而已啊今天我們就啊這個請委員放心這個我們會會是因為行 德國刑事署啊部分你今天給他衝一半去買啊你像我剛才講的那個保文就漏掉了我是認為可以再討論一下啦好不好啊\n好謝謝莊委員謝謝鄭部長謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.265 --> 00:11.768\n謝謝張偉有請我們法務部正部長有請正部長我們司法院那個刑事廳廳長好吧廳長今天也有來部長早還有廳長那我想幾個問題要來就教就是說今天我們這整個科技偵查法這個其實是\n\n00:35.486 --> 00:37.748\n檢查及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n00:53.459 --> 01:17.060\n也會擔心確實有人權上的一個憂慮讓我幾個問題來就教就是說你比如說我們在四年前科技偵查的一個草案當初就是有一些人權上的一個爭議像是比如說不符合這個虛情法官審理同意以後檢方或司法警察才能執行的法官保留這樣一個規定後來我們法務部去做了版本去做了一些修訂\n\n01:17.760 --> 01:19.221\n錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n01:35.872 --> 02:03.080\n這個代表法務部這邊其實也對這個手段啊你們也會有疑慮啦這進步是一個好事啊但是本席還是想來就叫法務部或者說刑事廳廳長就是說這部法案法案你們認為有哪些地方還要精進的地方比較符合人群的一個保障我對你的看法還是這人站出來你可能跟你講比較困難聽到你的看法你站在院方的看法你的看法會怎麼樣\n\n02:04.684 --> 02:32.294\n謝謝委員指教有關於科技偵查法這個整個立法過程修法過程或是草案提出的過程行政院一直都有參與參與七次的相關的審議那我們認為我們當時所認為有疑慮的部分那行政院這邊法務部這邊都已經參裁了就目前為止我覺得在成績化的處理跟各個程序的審查的部分我覺得是我們認為目前我們是可以認同的以上\n\n02:32.858 --> 02:33.259\n錢防制法修正草案案案。\n\n02:39.042 --> 03:05.388\n我這兩天才去看了德國的刑事訴訟法了那我們確實是去大量的去援引他援引人家進步的立法當然是一個好事啊但是我比較擔心的就是我們學了半套學了半套你像比如說你這個部分條文採法官保留的原則但是你卻沒有去同步採納發動的要見那種嚴謹性跟受干預第三者的這樣的一個影響\n\n03:06.528 --> 03:16.955\n又或者說你在告知義務或者在權力救濟的部分我們去採了德國行動訴訟法第101條強調什麼時候要告知當事人以第三人的不同的一個規範我就以這次法務部提出來的第四條為例所以如果調查人員認為犯罪嫌疑可能觸犯到三年以上有歧途刑必須要法官保留才可以使用空拍機還有監看這些設備因為可能會干涉到非當事人可是\n\n03:34.708 --> 03:54.960\n我們同時去參考德國的刑事訴訟法那個100H那個地方就是我們知己那個設計其中另外兩個包含的一個但書裡面要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實其他手段都沒有辦法還有第二個就針對非調查主體你必須要事實上跟當事人有關聯\n\n03:56.321 --> 04:07.805\n所以我就要來請教部長或者廳長對於制度性保障當事人跟非當事人的這個發動條件我們把他漏掉了。這個我看聽到你繼續講你認為呢?\n\n04:11.843 --> 04:39.317\n這個部分如果要比照所謂的通保法的部分我想在我應該有看過的行事書那個德國行事書他有相關的通信監察的部分的規定的話他也是用列舉的重罪原則或是列舉的罪名那包括所謂的罪惡手段性原則或者叫做侵害罪小原則用這個方式來做處理當然啊你這叫做自視教科書講法對對對我的意思說那你對這一些那個其他人不相干的人造成的損害你怎麼辦的影響啦他不要說損害啊\n\n04:41.414 --> 05:10.313\n因為你這個設計喔你那個到第七條那個是有霸王條款捏你那霸王條款是很可怕的捏我是認為啦法務部跟德國的版本有一個基礎的概念就是說犯罪嫌疑如果是重大經過法官保留可以採用科技偵查這樣的一個極端的一個手段可是呢德國刑事訴訟法我們去抄到為什麼說你抄了半套他們是你要窮盡一些必要的那個你現在的一個手段沒有辦法以後啊你才可以去向法官來申請啊\n\n05:11.533 --> 05:13.936\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n05:30.684 --> 05:47.323\n這個不管誰來執政啊你賦予政府太大的這樣一個權利喔其實喔都無可避免第一個想到的就是說會有政爭的問題啊這你有沒有開玩笑欸這有些你做部長的、你做廳長的、你落後了也是一般老百姓啊司法人員搞不好\n\n05:48.424 --> 05:49.485\n錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案\n\n06:06.804 --> 06:30.638\n你如果用法務部的版本會變成說我今天去調查一個罪行重大的一個嫌疑犯經過法官保留以後呢就可以直接用最極端的手段你說變成我們去抄人家就沒有窮盡一切這個偵查的手段的精神在啦我擔心的是這個啊所以你現在也開始在點頭啊所以我要請教的就是說你們有沒有可能在調整的一個地方有沒有可能部長\n\n06:36.676 --> 06:56.611\n其實我們現在的科技科技偵查方針線裡第二條就是GPS還有第三條M花車跟第四條的那種熱血性的這一種的設備事實上這個對人的因為他不可錄音嘛他不可錄音也不能吃他那個內容嘛所以他只是只是追蹤那個學習\n\n06:57.972 --> 07:00.714\n負以偵查人員更強大的武器武器對黨但是我講的是說當事人人權的一個保障你的射程的一個範圍你像比如說你現在目前的版本線三種太陽區告知受調查的當事人而已\n\n07:19.884 --> 07:25.886\n第一個法案許可的或者緊急狀況經過法案核發的緊急狀況經法院停職以後來進行施行調查的這一些以現在的目前草案的一個設計的話你去看你若我資料若沒有超過24小時的我若一天叫一個年輕人說來保證我都自己先給你兌一兌23小時就好給你卸23小時就好或是連鎖不要超過兩天這樣就好\n\n07:42.310 --> 07:44.031\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n07:52.588 --> 08:04.998\n不是嘛,你是院方喔,以下你們第七條的法王條款、緊急狀況、實施科技偵查三天內都可以事後來追認喔,沒人知道你就給我閃過了啦。我的意思就是說,叫你們重新再考慮一下有一個好處,你事後才可以去追蹤,來看看說我們這副法令通過以後,我們有沒有去超越人權保障,還是說我們會比較不好意思,我們用這個手段喔,\n\n08:21.932 --> 08:24.819\n洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n08:29.209 --> 08:33.371\n乾綠是當然我知道你們會認為輕微但是輕不輕微啊每一個人的判斷會有所不同但是在這個過程裡面我會擔心造成腐爛然後大家一馬上都跳到第七條去\n\n08:57.809 --> 09:14.592\n我還要跟你說的就哪怕是剛羅志強在他在質詢的部分他也是他也是自己擔心這個喔民眾一定希望你們有更好的武器去打擊犯罪可是呢他真的民眾還是會有這樣的一個疑慮像我就會有這個疑慮啊我認為這個有疑慮啊這如果過去你看以前馬王正正的孫子吼夭壽喔這波如果還有這個法律下去喔\n\n09:24.522 --> 09:49.038\n人性,我告訴你,大家都會怕那個最極端的啦,最好用的啦,我擔心的是這個啦,倒不是跟你提出來,有些質疑人都是拍耳,在阻擋你,把餘力把它解除掉的話,這個其實大家,這個法律搞不好大家認為,噢,棒,漂亮好過啦,但是我就認為,我就發現說,我們去抄德國刑事訴訟法,我們就把,我們就真的抄了半套啦。阿比,那個博恩,你想救濟那個,你要怎麼救濟?\n\n09:55.186 --> 10:00.251\n庭長,你怎麼這麼糾激?你24小時沒有超過兩天的啦,沒有糾激啊,都白看的啊。愛怎麼看就怎麼看。羅志強你就變透明人,誰任何人都會變透明人,我擔心的會有這個啦。我就不要超過24小時就好了啊,整天叫個年輕人跟你們對啊。\n\n10:15.712 --> 10:30.601\n有沒有這個問題來清檔你有沒有這個問題這個事實上在我們在草案演繹的時候當時有跟法務部那邊有一些提出有一些看法那我說在透過行政的開案的程序就是說警察機關在實施科技偵查的時候他記得要做行政開案那開案的時候才可以追蹤他到底有沒有超過24小時或是累計超過兩天這部分那在事後你可以用行政監督的方式來做處理\n\n10:40.467 --> 10:41.667\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n11:07.332 --> 11:09.094\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案。\n\n11:18.809 --> 11:20.210\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n11:49.653 --> 11:50.954\n審查及保障法草案案案。\n\n12:03.985 --> 12:05.986\n你這個範圍所以我就比較針對這個救濟這個部分因為涉及到說你要去發見真實打擊犯罪我相信立法院這邊大家都會給你贊同可是提出了這些人權保障的疑慮因為畢竟這是科技在偵查\n\n12:24.600 --> 12:47.710\n你要去發現追溯犯罪然後把讓這個刑法權來具體的一個實現我向大家都不會質疑啊但這個法定程序跟保障這個我以上我提出了這幾個我都要看廳長你還一直覺得我都對話但是提出來的法務部這個地方我就不曉得裡面有沒有可能這個部分再去做加強或者去調整\n\n12:49.437 --> 12:50.138\n洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n13:04.232 --> 13:30.848\n這部分我們這個這個法律當然是沒有規定那個內空機制但是我們會整個通過我們會會做一個訂定一個內空的一個一個內空跟集合的一個要點這部分我一定要管制我比較煩惱的是今天吵一半而已啊今天我們就啊這個請委員放心這個我們會會是因為行德國刑事署啊部分你今天給他衝一半去買啊你像我剛才講的那個保文就漏掉了我是認為可以再討論一下啦好不好啊\n\n13:33.240 --> 13:33.645\n好謝謝莊委員謝謝鄭部長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.265,"end":11.768,"text":"謝謝張偉有請我們法務部正部長有請正部長我們司法院那個刑事廳廳長好吧廳長今天也有來部長早還有廳長那我想幾個問題要來就教就是說今天我們這整個科技偵查法這個其實是"},{"start":35.486,"end":37.748,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":53.459,"end":77.06,"text":"也會擔心確實有人權上的一個憂慮讓我幾個問題來就教就是說你比如說我們在四年前科技偵查的一個草案當初就是有一些人權上的一個爭議像是比如說不符合這個虛情法官審理同意以後檢方或司法警察才能執行的法官保留這樣一個規定後來我們法務部去做了版本去做了一些修訂"},{"start":77.76,"end":79.221,"text":"錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":95.872,"end":123.08,"text":"這個代表法務部這邊其實也對這個手段啊你們也會有疑慮啦這進步是一個好事啊但是本席還是想來就叫法務部或者說刑事廳廳長就是說這部法案法案你們認為有哪些地方還要精進的地方比較符合人群的一個保障我對你的看法還是這人站出來你可能跟你講比較困難聽到你的看法你站在院方的看法你的看法會怎麼樣"},{"start":124.684,"end":152.294,"text":"謝謝委員指教有關於科技偵查法這個整個立法過程修法過程或是草案提出的過程行政院一直都有參與參與七次的相關的審議那我們認為我們當時所認為有疑慮的部分那行政院這邊法務部這邊都已經參裁了就目前為止我覺得在成績化的處理跟各個程序的審查的部分我覺得是我們認為目前我們是可以認同的以上"},{"start":152.858,"end":153.259,"text":"錢防制法修正草案案 案。"},{"start":159.042,"end":185.388,"text":"我這兩天才去看了德國的刑事訴訟法了那我們確實是去大量的去援引他援引人家進步的立法當然是一個好事啊但是我比較擔心的就是我們學了半套學了半套你像比如說你這個部分條文採法官保留的原則但是你卻沒有去同步採納發動的要見那種嚴謹性跟受干預第三者的這樣的一個影響"},{"start":186.528,"end":196.955,"text":"又或者說你在告知義務或者在權力救濟的部分我們去採了德國行動訴訟法第101條強調什麼時候要告知當事人以第三人的不同的一個規範我就以這次法務部提出來的第四條為例所以如果調查人員認為犯罪嫌疑可能觸犯到三年以上有歧途刑必須要法官保留才可以使用空拍機還有監看這些設備因為可能會干涉到非當事人可是"},{"start":214.708,"end":234.96,"text":"我們同時去參考德國的刑事訴訟法那個100H那個地方就是我們知己那個設計其中另外兩個包含的一個但書裡面要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實其他手段都沒有辦法還有第二個就針對非調查主體你必須要事實上跟當事人有關聯"},{"start":236.321,"end":247.805,"text":"所以我就要來請教部長或者廳長對於制度性保障當事人跟非當事人的這個發動條件我們把他漏掉了。這個我看聽到你繼續講你認為呢?"},{"start":251.843,"end":279.317,"text":"這個部分如果要比照所謂的通保法的部分我想在我應該有看過的行事書那個德國行事書他有相關的通信監察的部分的規定的話他也是用列舉的重罪原則或是列舉的罪名那包括所謂的罪惡手段性原則或者叫做侵害罪小原則用這個方式來做處理當然啊你這叫做自視教科書講法對對對我的意思說那你對這一些那個其他人不相干的人造成的損害你怎麼辦的影響啦他不要說損害啊"},{"start":281.414,"end":310.313,"text":"因為你這個設計喔你那個到第七條那個是有霸王條款捏你那霸王條款是很可怕的捏我是認為啦法務部跟德國的版本有一個基礎的概念就是說犯罪嫌疑如果是重大經過法官保留可以採用科技偵查這樣的一個極端的一個手段可是呢德國刑事訴訟法我們去抄到為什麼說你抄了半套他們是你要窮盡一些必要的那個你現在的一個手段沒有辦法以後啊你才可以去向法官來申請啊"},{"start":311.533,"end":313.936,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":330.684,"end":347.323,"text":"這個不管誰來執政啊你賦予政府太大的這樣一個權利喔其實喔都無可避免第一個想到的就是說會有政爭的問題啊這你有沒有開玩笑欸這有些你做部長的、你做廳長的、你落後了也是一般老百姓啊司法人員搞不好"},{"start":348.424,"end":349.485,"text":"錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":366.804,"end":390.638,"text":"你如果用法務部的版本會變成說我今天去調查一個罪行重大的一個嫌疑犯經過法官保留以後呢就可以直接用最極端的手段你說變成我們去抄人家就沒有窮盡一切這個偵查的手段的精神在啦我擔心的是這個啊所以你現在也開始在點頭啊所以我要請教的就是說你們有沒有可能在調整的一個地方有沒有可能部長"},{"start":396.676,"end":416.611,"text":"其實我們現在的科技科技偵查方針線裡第二條就是GPS還有第三條M花車跟第四條的那種熱血性的這一種的設備事實上這個對人的因為他不可錄音嘛他不可錄音也不能吃他那個內容嘛所以他只是只是追蹤那個學習"},{"start":417.972,"end":420.714,"text":"負以偵查人員更強大的武器 武器對黨但是我講的是說當事人人權的一個保障你的射程的一個範圍你像比如說你現在目前的版本線三種太陽區告知受調查的當事人而已"},{"start":439.884,"end":445.886,"text":"第一個法案許可的或者緊急狀況經過法案核發的緊急狀況經法院停職以後來進行施行調查的這一些以現在的目前草案的一個設計的話你去看你若我資料若沒有超過24小時的我若一天叫一個年輕人說來保證我都自己先給你兌一兌23小時就好給你卸23小時就好或是連鎖不要超過兩天這樣就好"},{"start":462.31,"end":464.031,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":472.588,"end":484.998,"text":"不是嘛,你是院方喔,以下你們第七條的法王條款、緊急狀況、實施科技偵查三天內都可以事後來追認喔,沒人知道你就給我閃過了啦。我的意思就是說,叫你們重新再考慮一下有一個好處,你事後才可以去追蹤,來看看說我們這副法令通過以後,我們有沒有去超越人權保障,還是說我們會比較不好意思,我們用這個手段喔,"},{"start":501.932,"end":504.819,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":509.209,"end":513.371,"text":"乾綠是當然我知道你們會認為輕微但是輕不輕微啊每一個人的判斷會有所不同但是在這個過程裡面我會擔心造成腐爛然後大家一馬上都跳到第七條去"},{"start":537.809,"end":554.592,"text":"我還要跟你說的就哪怕是剛羅志強在他在質詢的部分他也是他也是自己擔心這個喔民眾一定希望你們有更好的武器去打擊犯罪可是呢他真的民眾還是會有這樣的一個疑慮像我就會有這個疑慮啊我認為這個有疑慮啊這如果過去你看以前馬王正正的孫子吼夭壽喔這波如果還有這個法律下去喔"},{"start":564.522,"end":589.038,"text":"人性,我告訴你,大家都會怕那個最極端的啦,最好用的啦,我擔心的是這個啦,倒不是跟你提出來,有些質疑人都是拍耳,在阻擋你,把餘力把它解除掉的話,這個其實大家,這個法律搞不好大家認為,噢,棒,漂亮好過啦,但是我就認為,我就發現說,我們去抄德國刑事訴訟法,我們就把,我們就真的抄了半套啦。阿比,那個博恩,你想救濟那個,你要怎麼救濟?"},{"start":595.186,"end":600.251,"text":"庭長,你怎麼這麼糾激?你24小時沒有超過兩天的啦,沒有糾激啊,都白看的啊。愛怎麼看就怎麼看。羅志強你就變透明人,誰任何人都會變透明人,我擔心的會有這個啦。我就不要超過24小時就好了啊,整天叫個年輕人跟你們對啊。"},{"start":615.712,"end":630.601,"text":"有沒有這個問題來清檔你有沒有這個問題這個事實上在我們在草案演繹的時候當時有跟法務部那邊有一些提出有一些看法那我說在透過行政的開案的程序就是說警察機關在實施科技偵查的時候他記得要做行政開案那開案的時候才可以追蹤他到底有沒有超過24小時或是累計超過兩天這部分那在事後你可以用行政監督的方式來做處理"},{"start":640.467,"end":641.667,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":667.332,"end":669.094,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":678.809,"end":680.21,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":709.653,"end":710.954,"text":"審查及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":723.985,"end":725.986,"text":"你這個範圍所以我就比較針對這個救濟這個部分因為涉及到說你要去發見真實打擊犯罪我相信立法院這邊大家都會給你贊同可是提出了這些人權保障的疑慮因為畢竟這是科技在偵查"},{"start":744.6,"end":767.71,"text":"你要去發現追溯犯罪然後把讓這個刑法權來具體的一個實現我向大家都不會質疑啊但這個法定程序跟保障這個我以上我提出了這幾個我都要看廳長你還一直覺得我都對話但是提出來的法務部這個地方我就不曉得裡面有沒有可能這個部分再去做加強或者去調整"},{"start":769.437,"end":770.138,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":784.232,"end":810.848,"text":"這部分我們這個這個法律當然是沒有規定那個內空機制但是我們會整個通過我們會會做一個訂定一個內空的一個一個內空跟集合的一個要點這部分我一定要管制我比較煩惱的是今天吵一半而已啊今天我們就啊這個請委員放心這個我們會會是因為行 德國刑事署啊部分你今天給他衝一半去買啊你像我剛才講的那個保文就漏掉了我是認為可以再討論一下啦好不好啊"},{"start":813.24,"end":813.645,"text":"好謝謝莊委員謝謝鄭部長謝謝"}]}}}}