{"id":153566,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153566","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c980883da1c55d80b6005d12856443da96968f95e3d087843c216cf9a0116e734ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:18:17 - 10:28:05","影片長度":"00:09:48","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧(AI)推動現況與未來方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:18:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:28:05+08:00","duration":588,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":458,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時18分）謝謝主席，請國科會吳主委以及數發部葉次長。"],["主席：好，有請吳主委、葉次長。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：早安，主委。行政院在2018到2021有推出臺灣AI行動計畫，同時國科會前身的科技部也以AI小國大戰略推了五個推展策略，從2017到2021，投入了160億的經費，其中有50億是用於建置一個國家級的AI雲端服務及高速算平臺。在2018年，我們啟用了臺灣杉2號，當時它排名全球第20強，也是能源效率第10高的超級電腦，但是在5年後的今天，臺灣杉的排名已經滑落到第72，現役的超級電腦設備已經比較老舊，算力也亟需擴充。對於算力的需求，數發部也說會提供AI技術共享，建置一個AI的算力池。針對算力提升及設備升級，國科會現在有什麼新的規劃？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會逐步提升算力的建置，就是在公部門，政府投資的部分。現在的算力大概只有9 Petaflops，我們預計逐步提升，4年以後希望達到200Petaflops。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我們提升到200個每秒峰值速度，預計是用4年的時間嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，因為我們預算還是有限，但是……"],["陳委員秀寳：是礙於預算還是因為技術？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實裡面也有風險，因為AI進步得非常快，今天這麼大的算力需求是來自生成式AI。我們瞭解的是，生成式AI的作法其實非常沒有效率，它可以利用算力展現出很好的成果，但是它耗費非常多的能源，所以我們還有很多其他的限制，包含我們的基礎建設要同步搭配，還有我們的人才培育也要跟著上來。"],["陳委員秀寳：當然人才培育是另外一個部分，現在本席是針對這個設備的升級。剛才主委說要用4年的時間升級到200個每秒峰值速度，可以有更快的技術來提升嗎？4年的時間會不會太長？因為在這4年的時間可能發生很多變化。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，像輝達剛剛宣布新的晶片，其實它的效能就提升很多。我們預計因為臺灣的協助、臺灣半導體的進步，以及我們電子設備製造廠的能力，每年硬體的運算能力會大幅提升。我們現在估計未來投資的時候也不能夠太大膽，因為技術的變化很快，我們會逐步檢討。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，我們臺灣進一步發展AI的技術，還是要確保我們能夠逐步跟上AI的浪潮。我們提供足夠的資源、提供足夠的演算能力，都需要有這樣的算力來支撐。剛才其實也有委員，像沛憶委員非常關心到底這個算力，我們自己本身的估算跟我們的技術能不能跟上來。建構AI的研發平臺，有效整合國內資源這個部分，我們希望能夠提供共享、共用的高運算環境，讓整個產業、整個研究量能能夠提升。我們既然已經定了這個目標，往這個目標前進，是不是能夠再評估到底要多少算力才足夠支撐現在整個科研的需要並持續發展？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，這個很重要，除了剛剛講規劃政府投資的算力之外，我們現在也在引導廠商投資，這樣擴散速度才會快。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以除了政府公部門之外，其實民間的力量也要加進來。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來我要請教，隨著AI技術的發展，版權、隱私跟道德的問題都會變成社會非常關心的焦點。我們以後也會看到更多關於如何合理使用AI技術、保護智慧財產以及個人隱私相關法令的討論跟法律的調整。應用AI處理個人數據，譬如說人臉辨識或是行為預測領域，也不自覺的會侵犯到個人的隱私。這個部分我要請教次長，如何在創新跟保護隱私中找到平衡點？現在有沒有開始著手規劃這些規範？"],["葉次長寧：是，謝謝委員給我們回答的機會。首先，我們非常同意委員指出這一點，在生成式AI之下，的確內容的真偽越來越難辨識。基本上，我們有兩個方法進行，第一個，要確保來源的真實性，包括簡訊的短碼、短網址，或是將來推動社群平臺上的廣告必須採取實名制，以確保來源的真實性。第二個剛才有提到，部長已經提出我們會在近期之內運用AI機器學習、大數據的方式，建立詐騙的通報查詢網，讓民眾有更多資源能夠辨別真偽，以最快的時間拿到正確的資訊。在這樣子的情況下，即便還是有偽造的內容，但是不容易造成負面或不良的影響。"],["陳委員秀寳：整個辨識技術還有相關的法規，我們都已經有著手研議嗎？"],["葉次長寧：對，有些已經做好了，譬如政府機關使用111的簡訊平臺已經建置完畢，而且現在各個機關都開始使用。"],["陳委員秀寳：我請教一下主委，國科會有發布行政院跟所屬機關生成式AI的參考指引，在發布指引之後就跟你們無關，還是你們有在查核？各機關使用這些生成式AI相關的服務，有沒有照著你們的指引，還是發布之後就跟你們無關？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在是提供參考，因為是應急，現在是民眾的需求，但是現在我們開始要制定一些作用法的時候，現在AI基本法也會同步跟各部會一起來溝通，形成一個比較完整的法制系統。"],["陳委員秀寳：我的意思是我們有在做查核嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：查核的部分目前還沒有。"],["陳委員秀寳：還沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有相關的人力還是本身還沒有做到這個部分？"],["陳處長國樑：跟委員報告，實際上來講的話，我們指引是一個行政院通用給各機關，他們根據這個指引來做它內部一些要引用生成式AI的依據，所以現在來講的話，很多機關像金管會、交通部等等相關的部會，像數位部也有，他們根據這個指引做為他們的參考，也訂定了內部相關的指引，像金管會已經訂定相關銀行的一些指引的應用等等，這一些都已經在做了，我們也有跟各部會做一些基本上的接觸，目前來講的話，就是我們主委剛才所說的，我們現在在推動相關的基本法，也跟各部會有做一些基本的討論，像前幾天我們由副主委帶領，有跟數位部做一些初步的探討，以上。"],["陳委員秀寳：像我們的指引裡面有規定各機關使用生成式AI作為執行業務或提供服務的輔助工具時，應該要適當的揭露，主委您知道有哪些機關在使用生成式AI？您知道嗎？不清楚？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我沒有盤點過。"],["陳委員秀寳：像現在有在推廣特定功能的AI機器人，包括口試機器人、教案撰寫機器人或是教師評語撰寫機器人，像這樣機器人的使用，主委您支持嗎？我們要如何確保公正跟無誤呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分公部門應該還沒有正式使用。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個不是正式使用，是說他這樣子使用，我現在是問您的想法跟你的態度，您支持嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，據我個人的瞭解，AI的準確度沒有辦法到百分之百，任何的AI都沒有辦法百分之百，所以它只當作一個協助我們的工具、輔助的工具，人還是最重要的。"],["陳委員秀寳：它只是輔助吧？大眾都非常關心，在各種的領域之內使用這些AI設備到底要如何確保它是無誤的、是公正的，還有民眾很關心隱私權的部分，AI要如何使用、如何規範，相關的這些法規規範也希望國科會跟數發部能夠用你們的專業，可以儘快的來研議相關的部分，讓民眾在使用這一些AI設備時，在方便之餘也能夠兼顧公正、公平，而且是安全的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個部分也請你們儘快來研議，以上，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，主委請回。這邊宣告一下，俟郭昱晴委員質詢完，我們就休息5分鐘。接下來請郭昱晴。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葛如鈞","柯志恩","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","范雲","翁曉玲","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","吳春城","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","牛煦庭"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧 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{\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 563.698, \"end\": 563.718, \"score\": 0.029}, {\"word\": \"餘\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"秀\", \"start\": 576.221, \"end\": 576.301, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"寳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 576.301, \"end\": 576.321, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,270 --> 00:00:01,073\n吳主委葉次長\n\n2\n00:00:06,502 --> 00:00:35,880\n早安,諸位行政院在2018到2021有推出了一個臺灣AI的行動計劃那在這個同時呢我們國科會的前身科技部呢也擬定了以AI小國大戰略來推了個五個推展的策略從2017到2021也投入了160億的經費那其中有50億呢是有建置一個國家級的AI雲端服務及高速算的這個平台\n\n3\n00:00:36,620 --> 00:00:38,723\n在2018年我們啟用的台灣山2號那在當時是排名全球第20強也是能源效率第10高的超級電腦但是在5年後的今天台灣山的這個排名已經滑落到第72\n\n4\n00:00:54,043 --> 00:01:11,211\n現役的超級電腦這個設備已經比較老舊了這個算力也急需的擴充對於算力的需求呢那其實我們數法部這邊也說會提供AI技術共享來建立一個AI的算力池那對於這個算力提升及設備的升級呢國會會現在有什麼新的規劃\n\n5\n00:01:12,523 --> 00:01:33,793\n我們逐步會提升這個算力的建制就是在公部門我們政府的投資的部分我們現在的這個算力大概只有9個PedalFlaps我們預計逐步提升到4年以後4年以後我們希望提升到200個PedalFlaps所以我們要提升到200的這個峰秒速度每秒的峰值速度那預計是要4年的時間嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:39,324 --> 00:01:44,443\n是因為我們預算還是有限是礙於預算還是因為技術?\n\n7\n00:01:46,347 --> 00:02:13,706\n其實裡面也有風險因為AI的進步非常的快今天這麼大的這個算力的需求是來自於生成式AI但是我們了解的是生成式AI的這個做法其實是非常沒有效率的它可以利用算力展現出很好的成果但是它其實是耗費非常非常多的能源所以我們還有很多其他的限制包含我們的基礎建設要同步搭配還有我們的人才的培育也要跟得上來\n\n8\n00:02:14,946 --> 00:02:32,638\n人才培育這是另外一個部分,現在本席是針對說我們這個設備的升級啦那本來剛才卓文林講了說要用4年的時間來升級到200的這個每秒峰值速度提升到200嘛,要用4年,那如果可以有更快的\n\n9\n00:02:34,159 --> 00:02:34,419\n臺灣半導體進步\n\n10\n00:02:52,659 --> 00:03:17,051\n以及我們的電子設備製造廠的能力我們每年都會把硬體的運算的能力大幅提升所以我們現在在估計未來的投資的時候也不能夠太為大膽因為技術的變化很快所以我們會逐步的來宣討我們台灣不論是進一步的發展AI的技術還是要確保說我們能夠逐步的跟上AI的浪潮\n\n11\n00:03:18,552 --> 00:03:32,202\n提供這個足夠的資源提供這個足夠的這樣子演算的這個能力都需要有這樣的算力來支撐那剛才其實也有委員像裴委員也非常關心說到底這個算力我們自己本身的估算跟我們的技術能不能跟上來\n\n12\n00:03:34,143 --> 00:03:44,147\n要建構這個AI的研發平台有效的整合國內資源這個部分我們希望提供能夠共享共用的這個高運算的這個環境讓整個產業跟整個研究的這個量能夠提升上來所以這個部分也請說我們既然已經有定了這個目標往這個目標再前進的也希望說是不是能夠在自己能夠再評估說到底要多少的這個算力才能夠足夠支撐我們整個這個現在科學所需要的這個持續的發展\n\n13\n00:04:03,114 --> 00:04:03,995\n除了說政府公部門之外其實民間的力量也要加進來接下來我要請教\n\n14\n00:04:19,153 --> 00:04:34,123\n隨著這個AI技術的發展不管是版權、隱私跟道德的問題都會變成是社會非常關心的焦點我們以後也會看到說會更多的關於如果合理使用AI技術保護這個智慧財產以及個人隱私的這些相關法令的討論跟法律的調整\n\n15\n00:04:37,105 --> 00:04:55,590\n那在AI應用來處理個人的數據的時候尤其是說是人臉辨識或是行為預測這個領域也不自覺的會侵犯到個人的隱私喔但是這個部分我要請教次長喔如何在創新跟隱私的保護中找到平衡點我們現在對這些的規範我們已經有沒有一開始在著手規劃\n\n16\n00:04:57,954 --> 00:05:25,515\n謝謝委員給我們回答的機會首先我們非常同意委員指出的這一點就是說在深層式AI之下的確內容的真偽越來越難辨識那我們基本上有兩個方法來進行第一個我們要確保它的來源的真實性包括我們的簡訊的短碼也好或是短網址也好或是將來我們會推動社群平台上的廣告它必須採取實名制也就確保它的來源的真實性\n\n17\n00:05:26,315 --> 00:05:51,213\n第二,部長提出我們會在近期之內運用AI及機器學習大數據的方式來建立一個詐騙的通報查詢網讓民眾有更多的資源能夠去辨別真偽最快的時間拿到正確的資訊那這樣的情況下即便還是有偽造的內容但是不容易造成他\n\n18\n00:05:52,153 --> 00:06:08,701\n所以我們在這個整個辨識的這個技術上還有相關的法規上我們都已經有這樣子在著手研議嗎?對有些已經做好了比如說政府機關所使用的一一的這個簡訊平台已經建置完畢而且現在各個機關都開始使用了\n\n19\n00:06:10,163 --> 00:06:21,398\n我請教一下我們主委我們國科會這邊有發布了行政院跟所屬機關的這個生成式AI的參考指引\n\n20\n00:06:22,489 --> 00:06:39,921\n那我們是發布了指引之後就跟你們無關還是我們其實有在做查核?各機關在使用這些所謂的這些深層式AI的這些相關的這個有沒有照著我們的指引還是說我們發布之後就跟我們無關?\n\n21\n00:06:40,441 --> 00:07:05,544\n我們現在是提供參考各部會會因為應急啦現在是民眾的需求但是現在我們開始要制定一些作用法的時候我們現在AI基本法也同部會跟各部會一起來溝通形成一個比較完整的這個法制式那我的意思就是說我們有在做查核嗎查核目前還沒有還沒有沒有相關人力還是說本身還沒有做到這個部分\n\n22\n00:07:07,843 --> 00:07:25,271\n跟委員報告實際上來講話我們指引是一個就是行政院通用給所有各機關他們根據這個指引來做他內部的一些要用甚至是AI的時候的依據對所以現在來講話很多機關呢像金管會\n\n23\n00:07:26,231 --> 00:07:26,291\n陳秀寳陳秀寳陳秀\n\n24\n00:07:47,961 --> 00:07:48,702\n主席主席主席\n\n25\n00:08:07,439 --> 00:08:22,751\n其實在我們的質疑裡面有規定說各機關使用生成式AI作為執行業務或提供服務的輔助工具的時候應該要適當的揭露那主委您知道有哪些機關有在使用生成式AI你知道嗎?\n\n26\n00:08:25,691 --> 00:08:43,846\n我沒有盤點過那像現在有在推廣的像有特定功能的AR機器人包括口試機器人、教案撰寫機器人或是教師評語撰寫機器人是這樣機器人能使用主委您支持嗎?我們要如何確保公正跟無誤呢?對這一部分應該公部門還沒有正式使用\n\n27\n00:08:46,793 --> 00:09:05,612\n這個不是正式使用是說他這樣子使用我下次問說您的想法跟您的態度您支持嗎報告委員我個人的了解AI是沒有辦法準確度到百分之百任何的AI沒有辦法百分之百所以他只能當作一個協助的工具人還是最重要\n\n28\n00:09:07,694 --> 00:09:23,718\n大眾都非常關心到底使用這些AI的這些設備使用在各種的領域之內如何確保它是無誤的如果是公正的還有就是說民眾很關心的隱私權的這個部分那AI如何使用如何規範相關的這些法規規範也希望說我們國科會跟我們數法部這邊用你們的專業可以盡快的來研議相關的讓民眾在使用這一些AI的這些設備方便之餘\n\n29\n00:09:36,221 --> 00:09:36,321\n謝謝陳秀寳委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n270\t1073\t吳主委葉次長\n6502\t35880\t早安,諸位行政院在2018到2021有推出了一個臺灣AI的行動計劃那在這個同時呢我們國科會的前身科技部呢也擬定了以AI小國大戰略來推了個五個推展的策略從2017到2021也投入了160億的經費那其中有50億呢是有建置一個國家級的AI雲端服務及高速算的這個平台\n36620\t38723\t在2018年我們啟用的台灣山2號那在當時是排名全球第20強也是能源效率第10高的超級電腦但是在5年後的今天台灣山的這個排名已經滑落到第72\n54043\t71211\t現役的超級電腦這個設備已經比較老舊了 這個算力也急需的擴充對於算力的需求呢 那其實我們數法部這邊也說會提供AI技術共享來建立一個AI的算力池那對於這個算力提升及設備的升級呢 國會會現在有什麼新的規劃\n72523\t93793\t我們逐步會提升這個算力的建制就是在公部門我們政府的投資的部分我們現在的這個算力大概只有9個Pedal Flaps我們預計逐步提升到4年以後4年以後我們希望提升到200個Pedal Flaps所以我們要提升到200的這個峰秒速度每秒的峰值速度那預計是要4年的時間嗎?\n99324\t104443\t是因為我們預算還是有限是礙於預算還是因為技術?\n106347\t133706\t其實裡面也有風險因為AI的進步非常的快今天這麼大的這個算力的需求是來自於生成式AI但是我們了解的是生成式AI的這個做法其實是非常沒有效率的它可以利用算力展現出很好的成果但是它其實是耗費非常非常多的能源所以我們還有很多其他的限制包含我們的基礎建設要同步搭配還有我們的人才的培育也要跟得上來\n134946\t152638\t人才培育這是另外一個部分,現在本席是針對說我們這個設備的升級啦那本來剛才卓文林講了說要用4年的時間來升級到200的這個每秒峰值速度提升到200嘛,要用4年,那如果可以有更快的\n154159\t154419\t臺灣半導體進步\n172659\t197051\t以及我們的電子設備製造廠的能力我們每年都會把硬體的運算的能力大幅提升所以我們現在在估計未來的投資的時候也不能夠太為大膽因為技術的變化很快所以我們會逐步的來宣討我們台灣不論是進一步的發展AI的技術還是要確保說我們能夠逐步的跟上AI的浪潮\n198552\t212202\t提供這個足夠的資源提供這個足夠的這樣子演算的這個能力都需要有這樣的算力來支撐那剛才其實也有委員像裴委員也非常關心說到底這個算力我們自己本身的估算跟我們的技術能不能跟上來\n214143\t224147\t要建構這個AI的研發平台有效的整合國內資源這個部分我們希望提供能夠共享共用的這個高運算的這個環境讓整個產業跟整個研究的這個量能夠提升上來所以這個部分也請說我們既然已經有定了這個目標往這個目標再前進的也希望說是不是能夠在自己能夠再評估說到底要多少的這個算力才能夠足夠支撐我們整個這個現在科學所需要的這個持續的發展\n243114\t243995\t除了說政府公部門之外其實民間的力量也要加進來接下來我要請教\n259153\t274123\t隨著這個AI技術的發展不管是版權、隱私跟道德的問題都會變成是社會非常關心的焦點我們以後也會看到說會更多的關於如果合理使用AI技術保護這個智慧財產以及個人隱私的這些相關法令的討論跟法律的調整\n277105\t295590\t那在AI應用來處理個人的數據的時候尤其是說是人臉辨識或是行為預測這個領域也不自覺的會侵犯到個人的隱私喔但是這個部分我要請教次長喔如何在創新跟隱私的保護中找到平衡點我們現在對這些的規範我們已經有沒有一開始在著手規劃\n297954\t325515\t謝謝委員給我們回答的機會首先我們非常同意委員指出的這一點就是說在深層式AI之下的確內容的真偽越來越難辨識那我們基本上有兩個方法來進行第一個我們要確保它的來源的真實性包括我們的簡訊的短碼也好或是短網址也好或是將來我們會推動社群平台上的廣告它必須採取實名制也就確保它的來源的真實性\n326315\t351213\t第二,部長提出我們會在近期之內運用AI及機器學習大數據的方式來建立一個詐騙的通報查詢網讓民眾有更多的資源能夠去辨別真偽最快的時間拿到正確的資訊那這樣的情況下即便還是有偽造的內容但是不容易造成他\n352153\t368701\t所以我們在這個整個辨識的這個技術上還有相關的法規上我們都已經有這樣子在著手研議嗎?對 有些已經做好了比如說政府機關所使用的一一的這個簡訊平台已經建置完畢而且現在各個機關都開始使用了\n370163\t381398\t我請教一下我們主委我們國科會這邊有發布了行政院跟所屬機關的這個生成式AI的參考指引\n382489\t399921\t那我們是發布了指引之後就跟你們無關還是我們其實有在做查核?各機關在使用這些所謂的這些深層式AI的這些相關的這個有沒有照著我們的指引還是說我們發布之後就跟我們無關?\n400441\t425544\t我們現在是提供參考各部會會因為應急啦現在是民眾的需求但是現在我們開始要制定一些作用法的時候我們現在AI基本法也同部會跟各部會一起來溝通形成一個比較完整的這個法制式那我的意思就是說我們有在做查核嗎查核目前還沒有還沒有沒有相關人力還是說本身還沒有做到這個部分\n427843\t445271\t跟委員報告實際上來講話我們指引是一個就是行政院通用給所有各機關他們根據這個指引來做他內部的一些要用甚至是AI的時候的依據對所以現在來講話很多機關呢像金管會\n446231\t446291\t陳秀寳陳秀寳陳秀\n467961\t468702\t主席主席主席\n487439\t502751\t其實在我們的質疑裡面有規定說各機關使用生成式AI作為執行業務或提供服務的輔助工具的時候應該要適當的揭露那主委您知道有哪些機關有在使用生成式AI你知道嗎?\n505691\t523846\t我沒有盤點過那像現在有在推廣的像有特定功能的AR機器人包括口試機器人、教案撰寫機器人或是教師評語撰寫機器人是這樣機器人能使用主委您支持嗎?我們要如何確保公正跟無誤呢?對這一部分應該公部門還沒有正式使用\n526793\t545612\t這個不是正式使用是說他這樣子使用我下次問說您的想法跟您的態度您支持嗎報告委員我個人的了解AI是沒有辦法準確度到百分之百任何的AI沒有辦法百分之百所以他只能當作一個協助的工具人還是最重要\n547694\t563718\t大眾都非常關心到底使用這些AI的這些設備使用在各種的領域之內如何確保它是無誤的如果是公正的還有就是說民眾很關心的隱私權的這個部分那AI如何使用如何規範相關的這些法規規範也希望說我們國科會跟我們數法部這邊用你們的專業可以盡快的來研議相關的讓民眾在使用這一些AI的這些設備方便之餘\n576221\t576321\t謝謝陳秀寳委員\n","txt":"吳主委葉次長\n早安,諸位行政院在2018到2021有推出了一個臺灣AI的行動計劃那在這個同時呢我們國科會的前身科技部呢也擬定了以AI小國大戰略來推了個五個推展的策略從2017到2021也投入了160億的經費那其中有50億呢是有建置一個國家級的AI雲端服務及高速算的這個平台\n在2018年我們啟用的台灣山2號那在當時是排名全球第20強也是能源效率第10高的超級電腦但是在5年後的今天台灣山的這個排名已經滑落到第72\n現役的超級電腦這個設備已經比較老舊了 這個算力也急需的擴充對於算力的需求呢 那其實我們數法部這邊也說會提供AI技術共享來建立一個AI的算力池那對於這個算力提升及設備的升級呢 國會會現在有什麼新的規劃\n我們逐步會提升這個算力的建制就是在公部門我們政府的投資的部分我們現在的這個算力大概只有9個Pedal Flaps我們預計逐步提升到4年以後4年以後我們希望提升到200個Pedal Flaps所以我們要提升到200的這個峰秒速度每秒的峰值速度那預計是要4年的時間嗎?\n是因為我們預算還是有限是礙於預算還是因為技術?\n其實裡面也有風險因為AI的進步非常的快今天這麼大的這個算力的需求是來自於生成式AI但是我們了解的是生成式AI的這個做法其實是非常沒有效率的它可以利用算力展現出很好的成果但是它其實是耗費非常非常多的能源所以我們還有很多其他的限制包含我們的基礎建設要同步搭配還有我們的人才的培育也要跟得上來\n人才培育這是另外一個部分,現在本席是針對說我們這個設備的升級啦那本來剛才卓文林講了說要用4年的時間來升級到200的這個每秒峰值速度提升到200嘛,要用4年,那如果可以有更快的\n臺灣半導體進步\n以及我們的電子設備製造廠的能力我們每年都會把硬體的運算的能力大幅提升所以我們現在在估計未來的投資的時候也不能夠太為大膽因為技術的變化很快所以我們會逐步的來宣討我們台灣不論是進一步的發展AI的技術還是要確保說我們能夠逐步的跟上AI的浪潮\n提供這個足夠的資源提供這個足夠的這樣子演算的這個能力都需要有這樣的算力來支撐那剛才其實也有委員像裴委員也非常關心說到底這個算力我們自己本身的估算跟我們的技術能不能跟上來\n要建構這個AI的研發平台有效的整合國內資源這個部分我們希望提供能夠共享共用的這個高運算的這個環境讓整個產業跟整個研究的這個量能夠提升上來所以這個部分也請說我們既然已經有定了這個目標往這個目標再前進的也希望說是不是能夠在自己能夠再評估說到底要多少的這個算力才能夠足夠支撐我們整個這個現在科學所需要的這個持續的發展\n除了說政府公部門之外其實民間的力量也要加進來接下來我要請教\n隨著這個AI技術的發展不管是版權、隱私跟道德的問題都會變成是社會非常關心的焦點我們以後也會看到說會更多的關於如果合理使用AI技術保護這個智慧財產以及個人隱私的這些相關法令的討論跟法律的調整\n那在AI應用來處理個人的數據的時候尤其是說是人臉辨識或是行為預測這個領域也不自覺的會侵犯到個人的隱私喔但是這個部分我要請教次長喔如何在創新跟隱私的保護中找到平衡點我們現在對這些的規範我們已經有沒有一開始在著手規劃\n謝謝委員給我們回答的機會首先我們非常同意委員指出的這一點就是說在深層式AI之下的確內容的真偽越來越難辨識那我們基本上有兩個方法來進行第一個我們要確保它的來源的真實性包括我們的簡訊的短碼也好或是短網址也好或是將來我們會推動社群平台上的廣告它必須採取實名制也就確保它的來源的真實性\n第二,部長提出我們會在近期之內運用AI及機器學習大數據的方式來建立一個詐騙的通報查詢網讓民眾有更多的資源能夠去辨別真偽最快的時間拿到正確的資訊那這樣的情況下即便還是有偽造的內容但是不容易造成他\n所以我們在這個整個辨識的這個技術上還有相關的法規上我們都已經有這樣子在著手研議嗎?對 有些已經做好了比如說政府機關所使用的一一的這個簡訊平台已經建置完畢而且現在各個機關都開始使用了\n我請教一下我們主委我們國科會這邊有發布了行政院跟所屬機關的這個生成式AI的參考指引\n那我們是發布了指引之後就跟你們無關還是我們其實有在做查核?各機關在使用這些所謂的這些深層式AI的這些相關的這個有沒有照著我們的指引還是說我們發布之後就跟我們無關?\n我們現在是提供參考各部會會因為應急啦現在是民眾的需求但是現在我們開始要制定一些作用法的時候我們現在AI基本法也同部會跟各部會一起來溝通形成一個比較完整的這個法制式那我的意思就是說我們有在做查核嗎查核目前還沒有還沒有沒有相關人力還是說本身還沒有做到這個部分\n跟委員報告實際上來講話我們指引是一個就是行政院通用給所有各機關他們根據這個指引來做他內部的一些要用甚至是AI的時候的依據對所以現在來講話很多機關呢像金管會\n陳秀寳陳秀寳陳秀\n主席主席主席\n其實在我們的質疑裡面有規定說各機關使用生成式AI作為執行業務或提供服務的輔助工具的時候應該要適當的揭露那主委您知道有哪些機關有在使用生成式AI你知道嗎?\n我沒有盤點過那像現在有在推廣的像有特定功能的AR機器人包括口試機器人、教案撰寫機器人或是教師評語撰寫機器人是這樣機器人能使用主委您支持嗎?我們要如何確保公正跟無誤呢?對這一部分應該公部門還沒有正式使用\n這個不是正式使用是說他這樣子使用我下次問說您的想法跟您的態度您支持嗎報告委員我個人的了解AI是沒有辦法準確度到百分之百任何的AI沒有辦法百分之百所以他只能當作一個協助的工具人還是最重要\n大眾都非常關心到底使用這些AI的這些設備使用在各種的領域之內如何確保它是無誤的如果是公正的還有就是說民眾很關心的隱私權的這個部分那AI如何使用如何規範相關的這些法規規範也希望說我們國科會跟我們數法部這邊用你們的專業可以盡快的來研議相關的讓民眾在使用這一些AI的這些設備方便之餘\n謝謝陳秀寳委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.270 --> 00:01.073\n吳主委葉次長\n\n00:06.502 --> 00:35.880\n早安,諸位行政院在2018到2021有推出了一個臺灣AI的行動計劃那在這個同時呢我們國科會的前身科技部呢也擬定了以AI小國大戰略來推了個五個推展的策略從2017到2021也投入了160億的經費那其中有50億呢是有建置一個國家級的AI雲端服務及高速算的這個平台\n\n00:36.620 --> 00:38.723\n在2018年我們啟用的台灣山2號那在當時是排名全球第20強也是能源效率第10高的超級電腦但是在5年後的今天台灣山的這個排名已經滑落到第72\n\n00:54.043 --> 01:11.211\n現役的超級電腦這個設備已經比較老舊了這個算力也急需的擴充對於算力的需求呢那其實我們數法部這邊也說會提供AI技術共享來建立一個AI的算力池那對於這個算力提升及設備的升級呢國會會現在有什麼新的規劃\n\n01:12.523 --> 01:33.793\n我們逐步會提升這個算力的建制就是在公部門我們政府的投資的部分我們現在的這個算力大概只有9個PedalFlaps我們預計逐步提升到4年以後4年以後我們希望提升到200個PedalFlaps所以我們要提升到200的這個峰秒速度每秒的峰值速度那預計是要4年的時間嗎?\n\n01:39.324 --> 01:44.443\n是因為我們預算還是有限是礙於預算還是因為技術?\n\n01:46.347 --> 02:13.706\n其實裡面也有風險因為AI的進步非常的快今天這麼大的這個算力的需求是來自於生成式AI但是我們了解的是生成式AI的這個做法其實是非常沒有效率的它可以利用算力展現出很好的成果但是它其實是耗費非常非常多的能源所以我們還有很多其他的限制包含我們的基礎建設要同步搭配還有我們的人才的培育也要跟得上來\n\n02:14.946 --> 02:32.638\n人才培育這是另外一個部分,現在本席是針對說我們這個設備的升級啦那本來剛才卓文林講了說要用4年的時間來升級到200的這個每秒峰值速度提升到200嘛,要用4年,那如果可以有更快的\n\n02:34.159 --> 02:34.419\n臺灣半導體進步\n\n02:52.659 --> 03:17.051\n以及我們的電子設備製造廠的能力我們每年都會把硬體的運算的能力大幅提升所以我們現在在估計未來的投資的時候也不能夠太為大膽因為技術的變化很快所以我們會逐步的來宣討我們台灣不論是進一步的發展AI的技術還是要確保說我們能夠逐步的跟上AI的浪潮\n\n03:18.552 --> 03:32.202\n提供這個足夠的資源提供這個足夠的這樣子演算的這個能力都需要有這樣的算力來支撐那剛才其實也有委員像裴委員也非常關心說到底這個算力我們自己本身的估算跟我們的技術能不能跟上來\n\n03:34.143 --> 03:44.147\n要建構這個AI的研發平台有效的整合國內資源這個部分我們希望提供能夠共享共用的這個高運算的這個環境讓整個產業跟整個研究的這個量能夠提升上來所以這個部分也請說我們既然已經有定了這個目標往這個目標再前進的也希望說是不是能夠在自己能夠再評估說到底要多少的這個算力才能夠足夠支撐我們整個這個現在科學所需要的這個持續的發展\n\n04:03.114 --> 04:03.995\n除了說政府公部門之外其實民間的力量也要加進來接下來我要請教\n\n04:19.153 --> 04:34.123\n隨著這個AI技術的發展不管是版權、隱私跟道德的問題都會變成是社會非常關心的焦點我們以後也會看到說會更多的關於如果合理使用AI技術保護這個智慧財產以及個人隱私的這些相關法令的討論跟法律的調整\n\n04:37.105 --> 04:55.590\n那在AI應用來處理個人的數據的時候尤其是說是人臉辨識或是行為預測這個領域也不自覺的會侵犯到個人的隱私喔但是這個部分我要請教次長喔如何在創新跟隱私的保護中找到平衡點我們現在對這些的規範我們已經有沒有一開始在著手規劃\n\n04:57.954 --> 05:25.515\n謝謝委員給我們回答的機會首先我們非常同意委員指出的這一點就是說在深層式AI之下的確內容的真偽越來越難辨識那我們基本上有兩個方法來進行第一個我們要確保它的來源的真實性包括我們的簡訊的短碼也好或是短網址也好或是將來我們會推動社群平台上的廣告它必須採取實名制也就確保它的來源的真實性\n\n05:26.315 --> 05:51.213\n第二,部長提出我們會在近期之內運用AI及機器學習大數據的方式來建立一個詐騙的通報查詢網讓民眾有更多的資源能夠去辨別真偽最快的時間拿到正確的資訊那這樣的情況下即便還是有偽造的內容但是不容易造成他\n\n05:52.153 --> 06:08.701\n所以我們在這個整個辨識的這個技術上還有相關的法規上我們都已經有這樣子在著手研議嗎?對有些已經做好了比如說政府機關所使用的一一的這個簡訊平台已經建置完畢而且現在各個機關都開始使用了\n\n06:10.163 --> 06:21.398\n我請教一下我們主委我們國科會這邊有發布了行政院跟所屬機關的這個生成式AI的參考指引\n\n06:22.489 --> 06:39.921\n那我們是發布了指引之後就跟你們無關還是我們其實有在做查核?各機關在使用這些所謂的這些深層式AI的這些相關的這個有沒有照著我們的指引還是說我們發布之後就跟我們無關?\n\n06:40.441 --> 07:05.544\n我們現在是提供參考各部會會因為應急啦現在是民眾的需求但是現在我們開始要制定一些作用法的時候我們現在AI基本法也同部會跟各部會一起來溝通形成一個比較完整的這個法制式那我的意思就是說我們有在做查核嗎查核目前還沒有還沒有沒有相關人力還是說本身還沒有做到這個部分\n\n07:07.843 --> 07:25.271\n跟委員報告實際上來講話我們指引是一個就是行政院通用給所有各機關他們根據這個指引來做他內部的一些要用甚至是AI的時候的依據對所以現在來講話很多機關呢像金管會\n\n07:26.231 --> 07:26.291\n陳秀寳陳秀寳陳秀\n\n07:47.961 --> 07:48.702\n主席主席主席\n\n08:07.439 --> 08:22.751\n其實在我們的質疑裡面有規定說各機關使用生成式AI作為執行業務或提供服務的輔助工具的時候應該要適當的揭露那主委您知道有哪些機關有在使用生成式AI你知道嗎?\n\n08:25.691 --> 08:43.846\n我沒有盤點過那像現在有在推廣的像有特定功能的AR機器人包括口試機器人、教案撰寫機器人或是教師評語撰寫機器人是這樣機器人能使用主委您支持嗎?我們要如何確保公正跟無誤呢?對這一部分應該公部門還沒有正式使用\n\n08:46.793 --> 09:05.612\n這個不是正式使用是說他這樣子使用我下次問說您的想法跟您的態度您支持嗎報告委員我個人的了解AI是沒有辦法準確度到百分之百任何的AI沒有辦法百分之百所以他只能當作一個協助的工具人還是最重要\n\n09:07.694 --> 09:23.718\n大眾都非常關心到底使用這些AI的這些設備使用在各種的領域之內如何確保它是無誤的如果是公正的還有就是說民眾很關心的隱私權的這個部分那AI如何使用如何規範相關的這些法規規範也希望說我們國科會跟我們數法部這邊用你們的專業可以盡快的來研議相關的讓民眾在使用這一些AI的這些設備方便之餘\n\n09:36.221 --> 09:36.321\n謝謝陳秀寳委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.27,"end":1.073,"text":"吳主委葉次長"},{"start":6.502,"end":35.88,"text":"早安,諸位行政院在2018到2021有推出了一個臺灣AI的行動計劃那在這個同時呢我們國科會的前身科技部呢也擬定了以AI小國大戰略來推了個五個推展的策略從2017到2021也投入了160億的經費那其中有50億呢是有建置一個國家級的AI雲端服務及高速算的這個平台"},{"start":36.62,"end":38.723,"text":"在2018年我們啟用的台灣山2號那在當時是排名全球第20強也是能源效率第10高的超級電腦但是在5年後的今天台灣山的這個排名已經滑落到第72"},{"start":54.043,"end":71.211,"text":"現役的超級電腦這個設備已經比較老舊了 這個算力也急需的擴充對於算力的需求呢 那其實我們數法部這邊也說會提供AI技術共享來建立一個AI的算力池那對於這個算力提升及設備的升級呢 國會會現在有什麼新的規劃"},{"start":72.523,"end":93.793,"text":"我們逐步會提升這個算力的建制就是在公部門我們政府的投資的部分我們現在的這個算力大概只有9個Pedal Flaps我們預計逐步提升到4年以後4年以後我們希望提升到200個Pedal Flaps所以我們要提升到200的這個峰秒速度每秒的峰值速度那預計是要4年的時間嗎?"},{"start":99.324,"end":104.443,"text":"是因為我們預算還是有限是礙於預算還是因為技術?"},{"start":106.347,"end":133.706,"text":"其實裡面也有風險因為AI的進步非常的快今天這麼大的這個算力的需求是來自於生成式AI但是我們了解的是生成式AI的這個做法其實是非常沒有效率的它可以利用算力展現出很好的成果但是它其實是耗費非常非常多的能源所以我們還有很多其他的限制包含我們的基礎建設要同步搭配還有我們的人才的培育也要跟得上來"},{"start":134.946,"end":152.638,"text":"人才培育這是另外一個部分,現在本席是針對說我們這個設備的升級啦那本來剛才卓文林講了說要用4年的時間來升級到200的這個每秒峰值速度提升到200嘛,要用4年,那如果可以有更快的"},{"start":154.159,"end":154.419,"text":"臺灣半導體進步"},{"start":172.659,"end":197.051,"text":"以及我們的電子設備製造廠的能力我們每年都會把硬體的運算的能力大幅提升所以我們現在在估計未來的投資的時候也不能夠太為大膽因為技術的變化很快所以我們會逐步的來宣討我們台灣不論是進一步的發展AI的技術還是要確保說我們能夠逐步的跟上AI的浪潮"},{"start":198.552,"end":212.202,"text":"提供這個足夠的資源提供這個足夠的這樣子演算的這個能力都需要有這樣的算力來支撐那剛才其實也有委員像裴委員也非常關心說到底這個算力我們自己本身的估算跟我們的技術能不能跟上來"},{"start":214.143,"end":224.147,"text":"要建構這個AI的研發平台有效的整合國內資源這個部分我們希望提供能夠共享共用的這個高運算的這個環境讓整個產業跟整個研究的這個量能夠提升上來所以這個部分也請說我們既然已經有定了這個目標往這個目標再前進的也希望說是不是能夠在自己能夠再評估說到底要多少的這個算力才能夠足夠支撐我們整個這個現在科學所需要的這個持續的發展"},{"start":243.114,"end":243.995,"text":"除了說政府公部門之外其實民間的力量也要加進來接下來我要請教"},{"start":259.153,"end":274.123,"text":"隨著這個AI技術的發展不管是版權、隱私跟道德的問題都會變成是社會非常關心的焦點我們以後也會看到說會更多的關於如果合理使用AI技術保護這個智慧財產以及個人隱私的這些相關法令的討論跟法律的調整"},{"start":277.105,"end":295.59,"text":"那在AI應用來處理個人的數據的時候尤其是說是人臉辨識或是行為預測這個領域也不自覺的會侵犯到個人的隱私喔但是這個部分我要請教次長喔如何在創新跟隱私的保護中找到平衡點我們現在對這些的規範我們已經有沒有一開始在著手規劃"},{"start":297.954,"end":325.515,"text":"謝謝委員給我們回答的機會首先我們非常同意委員指出的這一點就是說在深層式AI之下的確內容的真偽越來越難辨識那我們基本上有兩個方法來進行第一個我們要確保它的來源的真實性包括我們的簡訊的短碼也好或是短網址也好或是將來我們會推動社群平台上的廣告它必須採取實名制也就確保它的來源的真實性"},{"start":326.315,"end":351.213,"text":"第二,部長提出我們會在近期之內運用AI及機器學習大數據的方式來建立一個詐騙的通報查詢網讓民眾有更多的資源能夠去辨別真偽最快的時間拿到正確的資訊那這樣的情況下即便還是有偽造的內容但是不容易造成他"},{"start":352.153,"end":368.701,"text":"所以我們在這個整個辨識的這個技術上還有相關的法規上我們都已經有這樣子在著手研議嗎?對 有些已經做好了比如說政府機關所使用的一一的這個簡訊平台已經建置完畢而且現在各個機關都開始使用了"},{"start":370.163,"end":381.398,"text":"我請教一下我們主委我們國科會這邊有發布了行政院跟所屬機關的這個生成式AI的參考指引"},{"start":382.489,"end":399.921,"text":"那我們是發布了指引之後就跟你們無關還是我們其實有在做查核?各機關在使用這些所謂的這些深層式AI的這些相關的這個有沒有照著我們的指引還是說我們發布之後就跟我們無關?"},{"start":400.441,"end":425.544,"text":"我們現在是提供參考各部會會因為應急啦現在是民眾的需求但是現在我們開始要制定一些作用法的時候我們現在AI基本法也同部會跟各部會一起來溝通形成一個比較完整的這個法制式那我的意思就是說我們有在做查核嗎查核目前還沒有還沒有沒有相關人力還是說本身還沒有做到這個部分"},{"start":427.843,"end":445.271,"text":"跟委員報告實際上來講話我們指引是一個就是行政院通用給所有各機關他們根據這個指引來做他內部的一些要用甚至是AI的時候的依據對所以現在來講話很多機關呢像金管會"},{"start":446.231,"end":446.291,"text":"陳秀寳陳秀寳陳秀"},{"start":467.961,"end":468.702,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":487.439,"end":502.751,"text":"其實在我們的質疑裡面有規定說各機關使用生成式AI作為執行業務或提供服務的輔助工具的時候應該要適當的揭露那主委您知道有哪些機關有在使用生成式AI你知道嗎?"},{"start":505.691,"end":523.846,"text":"我沒有盤點過那像現在有在推廣的像有特定功能的AR機器人包括口試機器人、教案撰寫機器人或是教師評語撰寫機器人是這樣機器人能使用主委您支持嗎?我們要如何確保公正跟無誤呢?對這一部分應該公部門還沒有正式使用"},{"start":526.793,"end":545.612,"text":"這個不是正式使用是說他這樣子使用我下次問說您的想法跟您的態度您支持嗎報告委員我個人的了解AI是沒有辦法準確度到百分之百任何的AI沒有辦法百分之百所以他只能當作一個協助的工具人還是最重要"},{"start":547.694,"end":563.718,"text":"大眾都非常關心到底使用這些AI的這些設備使用在各種的領域之內如何確保它是無誤的如果是公正的還有就是說民眾很關心的隱私權的這個部分那AI如何使用如何規範相關的這些法規規範也希望說我們國科會跟我們數法部這邊用你們的專業可以盡快的來研議相關的讓民眾在使用這一些AI的這些設備方便之餘"},{"start":576.221,"end":576.321,"text":"謝謝陳秀寳委員"}]}}}}