{"id":153568,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153568","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c984b4f5d46e3aeb8e0e41b4d0ae556a0d968f95e3d087843c26a0518872308de285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:07:08 - 10:21:06","影片長度":"00:13:58","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:07:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:21:06+08:00","duration":838,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":402,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時7分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請我們法務部鄭部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也邀請李廳長。"],["主席：來，廳長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、廳長好。部長，我們看到今天所謂的科技偵查法，大家都在討論跟刑訴之間的一個體制選擇的問題，這個需求很久了，大家殷殷期盼這麼久，為什麼到現在才推出？是不是在106年的時候，我們看到最高法院的刑事判決，提到這次科技偵查法當中的GPS追蹤器，它認定是屬於新型的強制偵查，所以必須符合正當法律程序。請問李廳長，是不是有這樣的一個判決？"],["李廳長釱任：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在106年的時候，就發現需要了，對不對？好。部長，那麼在110年，同樣的，有一個刑事判決說M化車在犯罪偵查的效率與人民的基本權保障，它有一個衝突跟抉擇，需要明確規定而妥適立法。請問部長，是不是因為這樣的關係，我們趕快推出了科技偵查法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實科技偵查法已經推一段時間了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！從106年、110年都被告知了，為什麼現在才推出了科技偵查及保障法呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分的確是我們現在科技的發展日新月異，整個犯罪範疇……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我是說很早就知道，可是法體制的沿革好像有點延宕。在4年前，法務部是不是曾經有預告過法案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！那時候是蔡部長的時候，當時我們看到在野黨提出「科技偵查法出爐，全民公敵？威權再現？」是不是由於在野黨的質疑，使得我們法務部的腳步慢了下來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為的確是科技偵查這部分，各界的意見也是非常多……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們要容納各界的意見……"],["鍾委員佳濱：各界的意見都很多，所以花了很多時間去整合各界意見，所以到現在仍然有要求放在刑事訴訟法，或者是用科技偵查法的專法來訂定，是不是這樣的一個體制選擇就存在了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確是有這個問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。這次我們補正科技偵辦工具的證據能力，包括了剛剛講到的GPS，包括了M化車，還有一個熱顯像儀、高倍數相機，是不是包含這些？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是剛剛提到空拍機這部分就排除了嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為空拍的範圍，合成孔徑雷達是在更高的，三、四百公里的也是空拍啊！林務局的飛機也是空拍啊，我們用無人機也是空拍啊，甚至美軍戰術使用的那種微型的、進去室內去看人質被綁票在哪裡的也是空拍啊，那種東西很難界定，目前你們就把它先暫時放在一邊，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在科技偵查及保障法（科偵法）最主要是我們要把新的一些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以使用的科技工具納入？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們把它用列舉的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：列舉的方式。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們現在只在二、三、四，只列舉這三種。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以未來如果有新的科技偵查方式出來，你們會再考慮放到這裡面來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。我們繼續往下看，以這次我們講的GPS，它目前在你們2020的版本當中，你們本來認為20日以內是檢察官保留、20日以上是法官保留，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是現在在法官保留部分，你們限縮到24小時以上就要法官保留，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，連續24小時還有未達2日。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是24小時內的話，本來是法官保留，剛剛也有委員在詢問，但是你們就認為「偵查有必要時」，就是把它有點放寬到「偵查有必要時」，而不是由檢察官來認定，那麼什麼是有必要時？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這個必要時是比照搜索的概念。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼可以放在聯繫人的身上嗎？因為犯罪偵查都有一個犯嫌，如果我們無法找到犯嫌，你們限縮到要跟犯嫌確認有聯繫，有哪些條件讓你們在24小時內，基於偵查有必要，就可以發動？你們有哪些規範？因為必要時這個概念比較抽象，犯嫌是一個很具體的對象，目前我們使用GPS，有時候不是犯罪嫌疑人，車手、那個車子，就是可能不是放在人身上，而是放在車子身上，這個車子你們怎麼判斷它的必要？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我們在追查犯罪的一個……所以跟犯罪有有關係，我們就……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以不見得是人的身上，不見得是車的身上，甚至跟你們犯罪偵查的對象有關聯的人或車都有可能？"],["鄭部長銘謙：都有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這就是我們很關心的，為什麼會認為必須將原定20日以上的法官保留限縮在24小時以上就必須由法官來認定，在24小時以內才准予具偵查的必要性來實施，是不是這樣子？","好，再來看一下GPS人臉追蹤辨識跟車牌自動化辨識。我們看到了，德國在2021年修改了刑訴，當中納入了這樣的監視器，這樣的監視器有人臉辨識跟車牌自動辨識，你們有做區隔嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：人臉辨識是不行的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為人臉辨識是對整個隱私期待……"],["鍾委員佳濱：生物特徵的隱私侵犯，那為什麼車牌自動化辨識就可以？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為車牌是在公共空間，就是這個車子是在公共空間行動，所以這個車牌一定會在公共空間裡面去顯示。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣的看法，司法院認同嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：我們基本上是認同的，因為車輛車牌的部分是在公共空間，至於駕駛人到底是誰？他沒辦法完全連結到個人隱私，包括他生活圖像的問題，所以單純車牌的部分，我們還是認同法務部剛剛的見解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我為什麼講到GPS？GPS是基於主動安置一個追蹤裝置在人或物件的身上，我們的人臉是人所具備的，因為涉及到個人的生物特徵隱私，所以你們排除，至於車牌、甚至車輛，你們認為是公共上可辨識的，基於追蹤嫌犯可能的移動位置、路徑，所以我們用車牌來調取，是不是這樣的意思？","請問一下，在使用到車牌自動辨識，有沒有要確定偵查的目的、要制訂細則？因為我們知道，現在包括臺北市、新北市，到處都是我們說的閉路監視器，閉路監視器可以蒐集影像，但是你在後台裝上的車牌辨識軟體，我只要輸入車牌，我就可以調閱它在什麼地方、這個車牌的車輛的行駛路徑，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員所關心的這個問題，在我們的草案裡面並沒有這些的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有啊，車牌自動辨識前端要有攝影機，有攝影機我才知道拍到車牌，有車牌在我的數據資料庫裡面，我才知道它移動的路徑，這就是車牌自動辨識的目的嘛，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是調查過往的一個資料，不是我們要處理的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我當然知道，就是說，現在要有配置監視器影像的大數據資料庫，大數據資料庫要有一個車牌辨識軟體，才能達到車牌辨識的目的，差別只在於你要不要輸入那個車牌，所以問的就是，你們對這個車牌的輸入，這個部分要管制啦！你不能張三、李四等無關的車牌都可以輸入，次長要不要幫忙補充？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分不是請黃政次來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，次長。"],["黃次長謀信：有關於車牌辨識部分，我們這次的科技偵查法是即時的辨識，至於委員提到的是他已經蒐證，進入資料庫了，再用軟體去辨識，這是屬於犯罪證據事後的辨識，不是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們是即時的要去調取那個車牌？"],["黃次長謀信：即時的在線上就去辨識出這個車牌的車輛在哪裡。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要知道車輛的現實狀況在哪裡？"],["黃次長謀信：對，如果事後的調查，是刑事訴訟法上的規範，不是科技偵查法的規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝。其實一般民眾常常說：我的車子丟了，找不到了，請警方幫我協尋。這時候是屬於事後的追查，是不是這樣子？我車子疑似遺失、失竊，我的追查是另外這個。","那什麼是M化車呢？M化車我的形容啦！它是偽裝成基地臺，就像大海裡面用拖網去撈魚一樣，會撈到你們要的，也會撈到你們不要的，對不對？是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個M化車的確有時候會蒐集到其他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊，就不是你要的嘛！所以M化車要大幅強化隱私的保障，2020年的版本當中，你們是20日內跟20日以上分別做檢察官保留跟法官保留，但是到了2024年，你們完全是法官保留，而且無關的資料不得使用，必須立即刪除。現在問題來了，到底你們撈進來的、你們要挑出來的，有限於是被告本人的手機，還是第三人手機須限於犯意聯繫人的手機或他人提供的手機？這些規範，當你們撈的時候，你們怎麼去決定要撈哪些號碼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這邊我們是參照德國法的一個觀念……"],["鍾委員佳濱：未來是不是要有更具體的操作型規範？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是要有關聯性，當然我們要跟法官請票的時候，這部分有沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我看到次長有點在搖頭、點頭，當我們在處理這個探手機位置的時候，不是跟你們案件有直接相關的人，你怎麼去界定？你們有沒有一個未來的操作規範？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為M化車這種科技方法使用的技術過程當中，它無可避免的會蒐集到第三人，但它過程中蒐集到的是號碼，號碼本身沒有個人資料，因為它分析工具的特性使然，會蒐集到號碼，所以我們要求只有在比對的過程當中，技術上必須會蒐集到的，這時候才可以暫時的保有，一旦分析完了，無關的你就必須要刪除。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這個號碼本身是未來你們基於犯罪有偵查必要的連結，才會去把它找出來？"],["黃次長謀信：因為M化車這個工具的使用上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它會蒐集到一堆號碼嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：對，它會蒐集到一堆號碼。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就像拖網一樣捕了一堆魚，然後你們再去挑你們要的那一尾魚。","這裡面我們還提到了熱顯像儀跟高倍數的攝像機不可以錄音，原因是在於，如果是M化車，它蒐集到的是號碼，但是在2020年版本跟2024年版本中，你們認為這些熱顯像的部分不可以錄音，主要原因是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是通保法要處理的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，這是通保法，所以我們在這次科偵法就不處理了。最後，關於比照通保法第二十七條第二項洩密情節重大的送評鑑，因為在剛剛講的這些科技偵查的過程當中，難免偵查的發動者可能會因此知悉其他與犯罪偵查無關的資訊，如果他有對外洩漏或是察覺到室內的隱私行為等情況，他如果有做一些非偵查以外的使用，你們怎麼樣去處理？"],["黃次長謀信：我們的法官法以及檢察官倫理規範就違反檢察官倫理情節重大者，即委員所提到的這個情形，本來法官法就有它送評鑑的機制……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是通保法第二十七條第二項是有關……"],["黃次長謀信：對，它其實是個重複規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是重複規定？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們認為通保法第二十七條第二項重複規定，所以你們這裡不需要規定，用法官法第三十條第二項及第八十九條第四項就可以了？"],["黃次長謀信：它本來就是要送個案評鑑。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。最後，他案、無關或違法取得證據的禁止行為，在刑事訴訟法第一百五十八條之四有規定，目前通保法第十八條之一也有規定，但是在我們這裡沒有規定，你是認為這也是重複規定，不需要再訂，還是認為這裡面我們需要外部再加強？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們證據上排除有絕對排除和相對排除，如果他違反的是一個訴訟法上非常重大且明文的規定，當然是絕對排除；沒有規定的話，不是證據一定可以使用，要回歸到刑事訴訟法第一百五十八條之四來做相對的排除，審酌整個人權的保障及公共利益的均衡維護，個案上由法官來審酌證據能力有跟沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以問題來了，之前有提到刑事訴訟法的問題，目前科偵法雖然獨立立法，但它相關的一些防弊的規定，還是要適用到刑事訴訟法的規定，是不是這樣？可是通保法我們有做重複的規定啊，你們認為有沒有必要？"],["黃次長謀信：因為通保法規範的是通訊內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["黃次長謀信：它違反人權的這個層級化保障是比較高的，所以它是一違反就絕對排除。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK。"],["黃次長謀信：但我們通保法的規範，它沒有涉及內容，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：科偵法沒有涉及內容。"],["黃次長謀信：所以我們用相對排除的這個第一百五十八條之四的條文就足以保障這個證據……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這一段的說明很重要，科偵法跟通保法，因為前者涉及到有內容，後者涉及到的只是一個外部行為的路徑，或者說確切的位置，並沒有涉及到它的內容，所以在它的保障規範上、強度上就沒有像通保法這樣，是這樣的意思嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，待會我們要繼續做大體討論跟逐條審查，針對您剛剛回應黃委員所說的，包括劍青檢改、檢察官們的期待，希望未來部長有機會多多跟第一線的人員做這些經驗跟意見的交流，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，備詢官員請回。","接下來請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-30","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","黃國昌","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案","agenda_id":"1135601_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"153568","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153568","tool":"pyannote","id":"153568-pyannote"},"job_id":"u9K5uO237I1eTnh8","queued_at":"2024-06-05 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0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,639 --> 00:00:07,181\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n2\n00:00:22,646 --> 00:00:38,622\n部長好庭長好部長我們看到了今天所謂的科技偵查法大家在討論到跟刑訴之間的一個體制選的問題那麼我先來看一下這個需求很久了為什麼到現在大家因期盼這麼久才推出\n\n3\n00:00:38,882 --> 00:00:40,323\n錢防制法第五條及保障法草案案案。」\n\n4\n00:00:56,818 --> 00:01:16,822\n是的在106年就受就發現需要了對不對好部長那麼在110年呢同樣的有一個刑事判決說M化車他在犯罪偵查的效率與人民的基本權保障他有個衝突跟抉擇需要明確規定和妥適立法請問部長是不是因為這樣的關係我們趕快推出了科技偵查法\n\n5\n00:01:18,055 --> 00:01:26,625\n其實科技偵查推已經推一段時間一段時間那對啊從106110都被告知啦那為什麼現在才推出了科技偵查及保障法呢\n\n6\n00:01:27,714 --> 00:01:52,603\n那這部分的確是我們現在的科技的發展自信而已。我是說很早就知道可是法體制的一個嚴格好像有點嚴當我們看一下在四年前是不是法務部曾經有預告過法案有有嗎那時候是蔡部長的時候那時候我們看到的在野黨提出說科技偵查出爐全民公題威權再現是由於在野黨的質疑使得我們法務部的腳步慢了下來\n\n7\n00:01:56,004 --> 00:02:19,287\n那這個他是要跟委員報告因為的確是科技偵查這部分各位的那個可能各界的意見是非常通是的所以各界的意見都很多所以花了很多時間去整合各界意見所以到現在仍然有要求放在刑事訴訟法或者是用科技偵查法的專法來訂定是不是這樣的一個體制選擇就存在了的確是有這個好那我們往下看\n\n8\n00:02:19,847 --> 00:02:21,168\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n9\n00:02:44,952 --> 00:03:01,501\n檸檬局的飛機也是空拍啊,那我們用無人也是空拍啊,甚至美軍使用的戰術使用的那種微型的進去室內去看人質被綁票在哪裡的也是空拍啊,那那種東西很難界定嘛,那目前你們就把它先暫時放在一邊是不是這樣?\n\n10\n00:03:02,701 --> 00:03:19,355\n我們現在科技偵查法科技偵查的保障法科證法最主要是我們我們要把新的一些坑可以使用的科技工具納入列舉的方式所以我們先是在234是列舉這三條所以未來如果有新的科技偵查的方式出來\n\n11\n00:03:19,855 --> 00:03:21,357\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n\n12\n00:03:40,262 --> 00:04:06,210\n這繼續二十四小時還有未拔兩日對但是呢二十四小時內的話本來是法官保留剛剛有委員在詢問但是你們就認為偵查有必要時嘛就把它有點放寬到偵查有必要時不是由檢察官來認定那麼什麼是有必要時我們這個必要時是比照搜索的一個概念好那麼可以放在聯繫人的身上嗎因為我們犯罪偵查都有一個犯嫌嘛\n\n13\n00:04:06,837 --> 00:04:20,006\n那如果說我們無法找到范賢你們限縮到要跟范賢確認有聯繫有哪些條件讓你們在24小時內基於偵查有必要就可以發動你們有哪些的規範\n\n14\n00:04:23,186 --> 00:04:42,137\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行\n\n15\n00:04:50,902 --> 00:05:08,144\n錢防制法的對象有關聯的人或車都有可能,好那這就是我們很關心的,也是為什麼我認為說必須將原定的20日以上的法官保留限縮在24小時以上就必須有法官來認定那在24小時以內才准予依據偵查的必要性來實施是不是這樣子\n\n16\n00:05:09,517 --> 00:05:32,964\n好那我們那接下來看一下的GPS人臉追蹤辨識跟車牌的自動化辨識我們看到了啦其實呢在德國呢他2021年在世修牙他們刑訴的當中納入了包括這樣的一個監視器那請問這樣的一個監視器有人臉辨識跟車牌中辨識你們有做區隔嗎\n\n17\n00:05:33,786 --> 00:05:35,247\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案\n\n18\n00:05:57,258 --> 00:06:22,685\n我們基本上是認同的因為在車輛車牌的部分是在公共空間在自己駕駛人到底是誰他沒辦法完全連結到個人的隱私的包括他生活圖像的問題所以單純車牌的部分我們認為我們認同法務部剛剛的見解好我們講到GPSGPS呢他是基於安置主動安置一個追蹤裝置在人或物件的身上\n\n19\n00:06:24,446 --> 00:06:28,591\n車牌及車輛是公共上可辨識的,基於追蹤嫌犯的可能移動位置入境,所以你用車牌來調取。」\n\n20\n00:06:43,729 --> 00:06:46,510\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n21\n00:07:13,462 --> 00:07:40,236\n這個這個委員你關心這個這個問題這個是在這個我們在草案裡面並沒有這些的一些的沒有啊車牌自動辨識要有有前端要有攝影機啊有攝影機我才知道拍到車牌啊有車牌在我的數據資料庫裡面我才知道他移動的路徑啊這就是車牌自動辨識的目的嗎這是掉盲過往的一個資料不是我們這要處理的問題我當然知道就是說現在要配置監視器要配置監視器影像的大數據的資料庫\n\n22\n00:07:41,417 --> 00:07:42,357\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n23\n00:07:58,462 --> 00:08:21,558\n那這部分我不是請那個防證次來市長來跟我們有關於車牌辨識部分我們這次科技偵查法他是即時的辨識即時的辨識委員你提到的是他已經收這直接進入資料庫了再用軟體去去辨識這是屬於犯罪證據事後的辨識不是本本是所以你們是即時的要去調取那個車牌即時的在線上就去辨識出這個這個車牌的人這車輛是在哪裡\n\n24\n00:08:25,180 --> 00:08:25,480\n車輛的現實狀況在哪裏?」對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對\n\n25\n00:08:48,035 --> 00:09:01,532\n那什麼是N化車呢?N化車我的形容啦他是偽裝成基地台就像大海裡面用拖網去撈魚一樣會撈到你們要的也會撈到你們不要的對不對?是不是這樣子?這個N化車的確會有收集到\n\n26\n00:09:02,284 --> 00:09:03,005\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n27\n00:09:30,714 --> 00:09:31,945\n你們怎麼去決定要撈哪些號碼?\n\n28\n00:09:33,755 --> 00:09:47,782\n檢查及保障法律規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及�\n\n29\n00:10:02,649 --> 00:10:05,690\n檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請\n\n30\n00:10:31,621 --> 00:10:38,251\n所以這個號碼本身是未來你們進行對犯罪犯罪有偵查必要的連結才會去把它找出來\n\n31\n00:10:39,813 --> 00:10:42,114\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n32\n00:11:08,574 --> 00:11:22,684\n這是通保法要處理的問題對就是這是通保法所以這一次呢我們科證法就不處理了好那最後呢關於比照通保法第27條第二項洩密情節重大的送評鑑因為在剛剛講的這些科技偵查的過程當中難免\n\n33\n00:11:23,704 --> 00:11:39,593\n檢查的發動者他可能會因此而窒息其他與跟犯罪偵查無關的資訊那如果他這幾時候有對外洩露或者說察覺到室內的隱私行為這些情況那他如果有做一些非偵查以外的使用那你們怎麼樣去處理\n\n34\n00:11:43,591 --> 00:12:11,361\n各位報告我們的法官法以及我們的檢察官倫理規範就這個違反檢察官倫理情節重大委員座提到這個情形本來我們法官法就有他送評鑑的記錄但是通報法第27條第二項是有他其實是一個重複規定他是重複規定所以你們認為通報法的27條第二項重複規定你們在裡不需要規定當然用法官法的第30條第二項第89條第4項就可以了他本來就是要送個案評鑑好那最後呢我們說的他案無關或違法取得證據的禁用行為\n\n35\n00:12:11,821 --> 00:12:23,826\n在刑事訴訟法第158條之四他有規定那目前通報法18條之一也有規定但是在我們這裡沒有規定你覺得有沒有你是認為也是重複規定不需要再定還是認為這裡面我們需要再加強\n\n36\n00:12:25,981 --> 00:12:26,741\n所以這就問題來了之前有提到刑事訴訟的問題目前克森法雖然獨立立法\n\n37\n00:12:53,007 --> 00:13:04,117\n但他相關的一些防防備的規定他是要適用到刑事訴訟法的規定是不是這樣子那包括可是通報法我們有有做重複的規定啊那你們認為有沒有必要\n\n38\n00:13:05,523 --> 00:13:24,021\n因為通保法規範的是通訊內容。它是違反人權的這個成績化保障是比較高的。所以它一違反就絕對排除。但是我們通保法規範它沒有內容。所以我們用相對保除就相對排除的這個158之四就足以保障這個證據這段的說明很重要\n\n39\n00:13:24,682 --> 00:13:53,514\n科偵法及通保法因為一個前者涉及到有內容後者涉及到只是一個外部行為的路徑或者說確切的位置並沒有涉及到他的內容所以在他的保障的規範上強度上就沒有像通保法是這樣的是這樣意思嗎?好不然那因為待會我們要繼續做大體討論跟主要審查所以希望未來您剛剛回應到黃委員的說的包括我們建清改檢察官們的期待希望未來部長有機會多多到跟第一線的人員多多做這些經驗跟意見的交流可以嗎?可以\n\n40\n00:13:54,394 --> 00:13:57,827\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4639\t7181\t錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n22646\t38622\t部長好 庭長好部長我們看到了今天所謂的科技偵查法大家在討論到跟刑訴之間的一個體制選的問題那麼我先來看一下這個需求很久了為什麼到現在大家因期盼這麼久才推出\n38882\t40323\t錢防制法第五條及保障法草案案 案。」\n56818\t76822\t是的在106年就受就發現需要了對不對好部長那麼在110年呢同樣的有一個刑事判決說M化車他在犯罪偵查的效率與人民的基本權保障他有個衝突跟抉擇需要明確規定和妥適立法請問部長是不是因為這樣的關係我們趕快推出了科技偵查法\n78055\t86625\t其實科技偵查推已經推一段時間一段時間那對啊從106 110都被告知啦那為什麼現在才推出了科技偵查及保障法呢\n87714\t112603\t那這部分的確是我們現在的科技的發展自信而已。我是說很早就知道可是法體制的一個嚴格好像有點嚴當我們看一下在四年前是不是法務部曾經有預告過法案有有嗎那時候是蔡部長的時候那時候我們看到的在野黨提出說科技偵查出爐全民公題威權再現是由於在野黨的質疑使得我們法務部的腳步慢了下來\n116004\t139287\t那這個他是要跟委員報告因為的確是科技偵查這部分各位的那個可能各界的意見是非常通是的所以各界的意見都很多所以花了很多時間去整合各界意見所以到現在仍然有要求放在刑事訴訟法或者是用科技偵查法的專法來訂定是不是這樣的一個體制選擇就存在了的確是有這個好那我們往下看\n139847\t141168\t錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n164952\t181501\t檸檬局的飛機也是空拍啊,那我們用無人也是空拍啊,甚至美軍使用的戰術使用的那種微型的進去室內去看人質被綁票在哪裡的也是空拍啊,那那種東西很難界定嘛,那目前你們就把它先暫時放在一邊是不是這樣?\n182701\t199355\t我們現在科技偵查法科技偵查的保障法科證法最主要是我們我們要把新的一些坑可以使用的科技工具納入列舉的方式所以我們先是在234是列舉這三條所以未來如果有新的科技偵查的方式出來\n199855\t201357\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案\n220262\t246210\t這繼續二十四小時還有未拔兩日對但是呢二十四小時內的話本來是法官保留剛剛有委員在詢問但是你們就認為偵查有必要時嘛就把它有點放寬到偵查有必要時不是由檢察官來認定那麼什麼是有必要時我們這個必要時是比照搜索的一個概念好那麼可以放在聯繫人的身上嗎因為我們犯罪偵查都有一個犯嫌嘛\n246837\t260006\t那如果說我們無法找到范賢你們限縮到要跟范賢確認有聯繫有哪些條件讓你們在24小時內基於偵查有必要就可以發動你們有哪些的規範\n263186\t282137\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行\n290902\t308144\t錢防制法的對象有關聯的人或車都有可能,好那這就是我們很關心的,也是為什麼我認為說必須將原定的20日以上的法官保留限縮在24小時以上就必須有法官來認定那在24小時以內才准予依據偵查的必要性來實施是不是這樣子\n309517\t332964\t好那我們那接下來看一下的GPS人臉追蹤辨識跟車牌的自動化辨識我們看到了啦其實呢在德國呢他2021年在世修牙他們刑訴的當中納入了包括這樣的一個監視器那請問這樣的一個監視器有人臉辨識跟車牌中辨識你們有做區隔嗎\n333786\t335247\t錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案\n357258\t382685\t我們基本上是認同的因為在車輛車牌的部分是在公共空間在自己駕駛人到底是誰他沒辦法完全連結到個人的隱私的包括他生活圖像的問題所以單純車牌的部分我們認為我們認同法務部剛剛的見解好我們講到GPSGPS呢他是基於安置主動安置一個追蹤裝置在人或物件的身上\n384446\t388591\t車牌及車輛是公共上可辨識的,基於追蹤嫌犯的可能移動位置入境,所以你用車牌來調取。」\n403729\t406510\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。\n433462\t460236\t這個這個委員你關心這個這個問題這個是在這個我們在草案裡面並沒有這些的一些的沒有啊車牌自動辨識要有有前端要有攝影機啊有攝影機我才知道拍到車牌啊有車牌在我的數據資料庫裡面我才知道他移動的路徑啊這就是車牌自動辨識的目的嗎這是掉盲過往的一個資料不是我們這要處理的問題我當然知道就是說現在要配置監視器要配置監視器影像的大數據的資料庫\n461417\t462357\t錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n478462\t501558\t那這部分我不是請那個防證次來市長來跟我們有關於車牌辨識部分我們這次科技偵查法他是即時的辨識即時的辨識委員你提到的是他已經收這直接進入資料庫了再用軟體去去辨識這是屬於犯罪證據事後的辨識不是本本是所以你們是即時的要去調取那個車牌即時的在線上就去辨識出這個這個車牌的人這車輛是在哪裡\n505180\t505480\t車輛的現實狀況在哪裏?」對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對\n528035\t541532\t那什麼是N化車呢?N化車我的形容啦他是偽裝成基地台就像大海裡面用拖網去撈魚一樣會撈到你們要的也會撈到你們不要的對不對?是不是這樣子?這個N化車的確會有收集到\n542284\t543005\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n570714\t571945\t你們怎麼去決定要撈哪些號碼?\n573755\t587782\t檢查及保障法律規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及�\n602649\t605690\t檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請\n631621\t638251\t所以這個號碼本身是未來你們進行對犯罪犯罪有偵查必要的連結才會去把它找出來\n639813\t642114\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n668574\t682684\t這是通保法要處理的問題對就是這是通保法所以這一次呢我們科證法就不處理了好那最後呢關於比照通保法第27條第二項洩密情節重大的送評鑑因為在剛剛講的這些科技偵查的過程當中難免\n683704\t699593\t檢查的發動者他可能會因此而窒息其他與跟犯罪偵查無關的資訊那如果他這幾時候有對外洩露或者說察覺到室內的隱私行為這些情況那他如果有做一些非偵查以外的使用那你們怎麼樣去處理\n703591\t731361\t各位報告我們的法官法以及我們的檢察官倫理規範就這個違反檢察官倫理情節重大委員座提到這個情形本來我們法官法就有他送評鑑的記錄但是通報法第27條第二項是有他其實是一個重複規定他是重複規定所以你們認為通報法的27條第二項重複規定你們在裡不需要規定當然用法官法的第30條第二項第89條第4項就可以了他本來就是要送個案評鑑好那最後呢我們說的他案無關或違法取得證據的禁用行為\n731821\t743826\t在刑事訴訟法第158條之四他有規定那目前通報法18條之一也有規定但是在我們這裡沒有規定你覺得有沒有你是認為也是重複規定不需要再定還是認為這裡面我們需要再加強\n745981\t746741\t所以這就問題來了之前有提到刑事訴訟的問題目前克森法雖然獨立立法\n773007\t784117\t但他相關的一些防防備的規定他是要適用到刑事訴訟法的規定是不是這樣子那包括可是通報法我們有有做重複的規定啊那你們認為有沒有必要\n785523\t804021\t因為通保法規範的是通訊內容。它是違反人權的這個成績化保障是比較高的。所以它一違反就絕對排除。但是我們通保法規範它沒有內容。所以我們用相對保除就相對排除的這個158之四就足以保障這個證據這段的說明很重要\n804682\t833514\t科偵法及通保法因為一個前者涉及到有內容後者涉及到只是一個外部行為的路徑或者說確切的位置並沒有涉及到他的內容所以在他的保障的規範上強度上就沒有像通保法是這樣的是這樣意思嗎?好不然那因為待會我們要繼續做大體討論跟主要審查所以希望未來您剛剛回應到黃委員的說的包括我們建清改檢察官們的期待希望未來部長有機會多多到跟第一線的人員多多做這些經驗跟意見的交流可以嗎?可以\n834394\t837827\t錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。\n","txt":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n部長好 庭長好部長我們看到了今天所謂的科技偵查法大家在討論到跟刑訴之間的一個體制選的問題那麼我先來看一下這個需求很久了為什麼到現在大家因期盼這麼久才推出\n錢防制法第五條及保障法草案案 案。」\n是的在106年就受就發現需要了對不對好部長那麼在110年呢同樣的有一個刑事判決說M化車他在犯罪偵查的效率與人民的基本權保障他有個衝突跟抉擇需要明確規定和妥適立法請問部長是不是因為這樣的關係我們趕快推出了科技偵查法\n其實科技偵查推已經推一段時間一段時間那對啊從106 110都被告知啦那為什麼現在才推出了科技偵查及保障法呢\n那這部分的確是我們現在的科技的發展自信而已。我是說很早就知道可是法體制的一個嚴格好像有點嚴當我們看一下在四年前是不是法務部曾經有預告過法案有有嗎那時候是蔡部長的時候那時候我們看到的在野黨提出說科技偵查出爐全民公題威權再現是由於在野黨的質疑使得我們法務部的腳步慢了下來\n那這個他是要跟委員報告因為的確是科技偵查這部分各位的那個可能各界的意見是非常通是的所以各界的意見都很多所以花了很多時間去整合各界意見所以到現在仍然有要求放在刑事訴訟法或者是用科技偵查法的專法來訂定是不是這樣的一個體制選擇就存在了的確是有這個好那我們往下看\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n檸檬局的飛機也是空拍啊,那我們用無人也是空拍啊,甚至美軍使用的戰術使用的那種微型的進去室內去看人質被綁票在哪裡的也是空拍啊,那那種東西很難界定嘛,那目前你們就把它先暫時放在一邊是不是這樣?\n我們現在科技偵查法科技偵查的保障法科證法最主要是我們我們要把新的一些坑可以使用的科技工具納入列舉的方式所以我們先是在234是列舉這三條所以未來如果有新的科技偵查的方式出來\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案\n這繼續二十四小時還有未拔兩日對但是呢二十四小時內的話本來是法官保留剛剛有委員在詢問但是你們就認為偵查有必要時嘛就把它有點放寬到偵查有必要時不是由檢察官來認定那麼什麼是有必要時我們這個必要時是比照搜索的一個概念好那麼可以放在聯繫人的身上嗎因為我們犯罪偵查都有一個犯嫌嘛\n那如果說我們無法找到范賢你們限縮到要跟范賢確認有聯繫有哪些條件讓你們在24小時內基於偵查有必要就可以發動你們有哪些的規範\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案 案﹖一）行\n錢防制法的對象有關聯的人或車都有可能,好那這就是我們很關心的,也是為什麼我認為說必須將原定的20日以上的法官保留限縮在24小時以上就必須有法官來認定那在24小時以內才准予依據偵查的必要性來實施是不是這樣子\n好那我們那接下來看一下的GPS人臉追蹤辨識跟車牌的自動化辨識我們看到了啦其實呢在德國呢他2021年在世修牙他們刑訴的當中納入了包括這樣的一個監視器那請問這樣的一個監視器有人臉辨識跟車牌中辨識你們有做區隔嗎\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案\n我們基本上是認同的因為在車輛車牌的部分是在公共空間在自己駕駛人到底是誰他沒辦法完全連結到個人的隱私的包括他生活圖像的問題所以單純車牌的部分我們認為我們認同法務部剛剛的見解好我們講到GPSGPS呢他是基於安置主動安置一個追蹤裝置在人或物件的身上\n車牌及車輛是公共上可辨識的,基於追蹤嫌犯的可能移動位置入境,所以你用車牌來調取。」\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。\n這個這個委員你關心這個這個問題這個是在這個我們在草案裡面並沒有這些的一些的沒有啊車牌自動辨識要有有前端要有攝影機啊有攝影機我才知道拍到車牌啊有車牌在我的數據資料庫裡面我才知道他移動的路徑啊這就是車牌自動辨識的目的嗎這是掉盲過往的一個資料不是我們這要處理的問題我當然知道就是說現在要配置監視器要配置監視器影像的大數據的資料庫\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n那這部分我不是請那個防證次來市長來跟我們有關於車牌辨識部分我們這次科技偵查法他是即時的辨識即時的辨識委員你提到的是他已經收這直接進入資料庫了再用軟體去去辨識這是屬於犯罪證據事後的辨識不是本本是所以你們是即時的要去調取那個車牌即時的在線上就去辨識出這個這個車牌的人這車輛是在哪裡\n車輛的現實狀況在哪裏?」對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對\n那什麼是N化車呢?N化車我的形容啦他是偽裝成基地台就像大海裡面用拖網去撈魚一樣會撈到你們要的也會撈到你們不要的對不對?是不是這樣子?這個N化車的確會有收集到\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n你們怎麼去決定要撈哪些號碼?\n檢查及保障法律規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及�\n檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請\n所以這個號碼本身是未來你們進行對犯罪犯罪有偵查必要的連結才會去把它找出來\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n這是通保法要處理的問題對就是這是通保法所以這一次呢我們科證法就不處理了好那最後呢關於比照通保法第27條第二項洩密情節重大的送評鑑因為在剛剛講的這些科技偵查的過程當中難免\n檢查的發動者他可能會因此而窒息其他與跟犯罪偵查無關的資訊那如果他這幾時候有對外洩露或者說察覺到室內的隱私行為這些情況那他如果有做一些非偵查以外的使用那你們怎麼樣去處理\n各位報告我們的法官法以及我們的檢察官倫理規範就這個違反檢察官倫理情節重大委員座提到這個情形本來我們法官法就有他送評鑑的記錄但是通報法第27條第二項是有他其實是一個重複規定他是重複規定所以你們認為通報法的27條第二項重複規定你們在裡不需要規定當然用法官法的第30條第二項第89條第4項就可以了他本來就是要送個案評鑑好那最後呢我們說的他案無關或違法取得證據的禁用行為\n在刑事訴訟法第158條之四他有規定那目前通報法18條之一也有規定但是在我們這裡沒有規定你覺得有沒有你是認為也是重複規定不需要再定還是認為這裡面我們需要再加強\n所以這就問題來了之前有提到刑事訴訟的問題目前克森法雖然獨立立法\n但他相關的一些防防備的規定他是要適用到刑事訴訟法的規定是不是這樣子那包括可是通報法我們有有做重複的規定啊那你們認為有沒有必要\n因為通保法規範的是通訊內容。它是違反人權的這個成績化保障是比較高的。所以它一違反就絕對排除。但是我們通保法規範它沒有內容。所以我們用相對保除就相對排除的這個158之四就足以保障這個證據這段的說明很重要\n科偵法及通保法因為一個前者涉及到有內容後者涉及到只是一個外部行為的路徑或者說確切的位置並沒有涉及到他的內容所以在他的保障的規範上強度上就沒有像通保法是這樣的是這樣意思嗎?好不然那因為待會我們要繼續做大體討論跟主要審查所以希望未來您剛剛回應到黃委員的說的包括我們建清改檢察官們的期待希望未來部長有機會多多到跟第一線的人員多多做這些經驗跟意見的交流可以嗎?可以\n錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.639 --> 00:07.181\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n00:22.646 --> 00:38.622\n部長好庭長好部長我們看到了今天所謂的科技偵查法大家在討論到跟刑訴之間的一個體制選的問題那麼我先來看一下這個需求很久了為什麼到現在大家因期盼這麼久才推出\n\n00:38.882 --> 00:40.323\n錢防制法第五條及保障法草案案案。」\n\n00:56.818 --> 01:16.822\n是的在106年就受就發現需要了對不對好部長那麼在110年呢同樣的有一個刑事判決說M化車他在犯罪偵查的效率與人民的基本權保障他有個衝突跟抉擇需要明確規定和妥適立法請問部長是不是因為這樣的關係我們趕快推出了科技偵查法\n\n01:18.055 --> 01:26.625\n其實科技偵查推已經推一段時間一段時間那對啊從106110都被告知啦那為什麼現在才推出了科技偵查及保障法呢\n\n01:27.714 --> 01:52.603\n那這部分的確是我們現在的科技的發展自信而已。我是說很早就知道可是法體制的一個嚴格好像有點嚴當我們看一下在四年前是不是法務部曾經有預告過法案有有嗎那時候是蔡部長的時候那時候我們看到的在野黨提出說科技偵查出爐全民公題威權再現是由於在野黨的質疑使得我們法務部的腳步慢了下來\n\n01:56.004 --> 02:19.287\n那這個他是要跟委員報告因為的確是科技偵查這部分各位的那個可能各界的意見是非常通是的所以各界的意見都很多所以花了很多時間去整合各界意見所以到現在仍然有要求放在刑事訴訟法或者是用科技偵查法的專法來訂定是不是這樣的一個體制選擇就存在了的確是有這個好那我們往下看\n\n02:19.847 --> 02:21.168\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n02:44.952 --> 03:01.501\n檸檬局的飛機也是空拍啊,那我們用無人也是空拍啊,甚至美軍使用的戰術使用的那種微型的進去室內去看人質被綁票在哪裡的也是空拍啊,那那種東西很難界定嘛,那目前你們就把它先暫時放在一邊是不是這樣?\n\n03:02.701 --> 03:19.355\n我們現在科技偵查法科技偵查的保障法科證法最主要是我們我們要把新的一些坑可以使用的科技工具納入列舉的方式所以我們先是在234是列舉這三條所以未來如果有新的科技偵查的方式出來\n\n03:19.855 --> 03:21.357\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n\n03:40.262 --> 04:06.210\n這繼續二十四小時還有未拔兩日對但是呢二十四小時內的話本來是法官保留剛剛有委員在詢問但是你們就認為偵查有必要時嘛就把它有點放寬到偵查有必要時不是由檢察官來認定那麼什麼是有必要時我們這個必要時是比照搜索的一個概念好那麼可以放在聯繫人的身上嗎因為我們犯罪偵查都有一個犯嫌嘛\n\n04:06.837 --> 04:20.006\n那如果說我們無法找到范賢你們限縮到要跟范賢確認有聯繫有哪些條件讓你們在24小時內基於偵查有必要就可以發動你們有哪些的規範\n\n04:23.186 --> 04:42.137\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法及保障法草案案﹖一）行\n\n04:50.902 --> 05:08.144\n錢防制法的對象有關聯的人或車都有可能,好那這就是我們很關心的,也是為什麼我認為說必須將原定的20日以上的法官保留限縮在24小時以上就必須有法官來認定那在24小時以內才准予依據偵查的必要性來實施是不是這樣子\n\n05:09.517 --> 05:32.964\n好那我們那接下來看一下的GPS人臉追蹤辨識跟車牌的自動化辨識我們看到了啦其實呢在德國呢他2021年在世修牙他們刑訴的當中納入了包括這樣的一個監視器那請問這樣的一個監視器有人臉辨識跟車牌中辨識你們有做區隔嗎\n\n05:33.786 --> 05:35.247\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案\n\n05:57.258 --> 06:22.685\n我們基本上是認同的因為在車輛車牌的部分是在公共空間在自己駕駛人到底是誰他沒辦法完全連結到個人的隱私的包括他生活圖像的問題所以單純車牌的部分我們認為我們認同法務部剛剛的見解好我們講到GPSGPS呢他是基於安置主動安置一個追蹤裝置在人或物件的身上\n\n06:24.446 --> 06:28.591\n車牌及車輛是公共上可辨識的,基於追蹤嫌犯的可能移動位置入境,所以你用車牌來調取。」\n\n06:43.729 --> 06:46.510\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n07:13.462 --> 07:40.236\n這個這個委員你關心這個這個問題這個是在這個我們在草案裡面並沒有這些的一些的沒有啊車牌自動辨識要有有前端要有攝影機啊有攝影機我才知道拍到車牌啊有車牌在我的數據資料庫裡面我才知道他移動的路徑啊這就是車牌自動辨識的目的嗎這是掉盲過往的一個資料不是我們這要處理的問題我當然知道就是說現在要配置監視器要配置監視器影像的大數據的資料庫\n\n07:41.417 --> 07:42.357\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n07:58.462 --> 08:21.558\n那這部分我不是請那個防證次來市長來跟我們有關於車牌辨識部分我們這次科技偵查法他是即時的辨識即時的辨識委員你提到的是他已經收這直接進入資料庫了再用軟體去去辨識這是屬於犯罪證據事後的辨識不是本本是所以你們是即時的要去調取那個車牌即時的在線上就去辨識出這個這個車牌的人這車輛是在哪裡\n\n08:25.180 --> 08:25.480\n車輛的現實狀況在哪裏?」對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對\n\n08:48.035 --> 09:01.532\n那什麼是N化車呢?N化車我的形容啦他是偽裝成基地台就像大海裡面用拖網去撈魚一樣會撈到你們要的也會撈到你們不要的對不對?是不是這樣子?這個N化車的確會有收集到\n\n09:02.284 --> 09:03.005\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n09:30.714 --> 09:31.945\n你們怎麼去決定要撈哪些號碼?\n\n09:33.755 --> 09:47.782\n檢查及保障法律規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及操作規範及�\n\n10:02.649 --> 10:05.690\n檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請\n\n10:31.621 --> 10:38.251\n所以這個號碼本身是未來你們進行對犯罪犯罪有偵查必要的連結才會去把它找出來\n\n10:39.813 --> 10:42.114\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n11:08.574 --> 11:22.684\n這是通保法要處理的問題對就是這是通保法所以這一次呢我們科證法就不處理了好那最後呢關於比照通保法第27條第二項洩密情節重大的送評鑑因為在剛剛講的這些科技偵查的過程當中難免\n\n11:23.704 --> 11:39.593\n檢查的發動者他可能會因此而窒息其他與跟犯罪偵查無關的資訊那如果他這幾時候有對外洩露或者說察覺到室內的隱私行為這些情況那他如果有做一些非偵查以外的使用那你們怎麼樣去處理\n\n11:43.591 --> 12:11.361\n各位報告我們的法官法以及我們的檢察官倫理規範就這個違反檢察官倫理情節重大委員座提到這個情形本來我們法官法就有他送評鑑的記錄但是通報法第27條第二項是有他其實是一個重複規定他是重複規定所以你們認為通報法的27條第二項重複規定你們在裡不需要規定當然用法官法的第30條第二項第89條第4項就可以了他本來就是要送個案評鑑好那最後呢我們說的他案無關或違法取得證據的禁用行為\n\n12:11.821 --> 12:23.826\n在刑事訴訟法第158條之四他有規定那目前通報法18條之一也有規定但是在我們這裡沒有規定你覺得有沒有你是認為也是重複規定不需要再定還是認為這裡面我們需要再加強\n\n12:25.981 --> 12:26.741\n所以這就問題來了之前有提到刑事訴訟的問題目前克森法雖然獨立立法\n\n12:53.007 --> 13:04.117\n但他相關的一些防防備的規定他是要適用到刑事訴訟法的規定是不是這樣子那包括可是通報法我們有有做重複的規定啊那你們認為有沒有必要\n\n13:05.523 --> 13:24.021\n因為通保法規範的是通訊內容。它是違反人權的這個成績化保障是比較高的。所以它一違反就絕對排除。但是我們通保法規範它沒有內容。所以我們用相對保除就相對排除的這個158之四就足以保障這個證據這段的說明很重要\n\n13:24.682 --> 13:53.514\n科偵法及通保法因為一個前者涉及到有內容後者涉及到只是一個外部行為的路徑或者說確切的位置並沒有涉及到他的內容所以在他的保障的規範上強度上就沒有像通保法是這樣的是這樣意思嗎?好不然那因為待會我們要繼續做大體討論跟主要審查所以希望未來您剛剛回應到黃委員的說的包括我們建清改檢察官們的期待希望未來部長有機會多多到跟第一線的人員多多做這些經驗跟意見的交流可以嗎?可以\n\n13:54.394 --> 13:57.827\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案。\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.639,"end":7.181,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":22.646,"end":38.622,"text":"部長好 庭長好部長我們看到了今天所謂的科技偵查法大家在討論到跟刑訴之間的一個體制選的問題那麼我先來看一下這個需求很久了為什麼到現在大家因期盼這麼久才推出"},{"start":38.882,"end":40.323,"text":"錢防制法第五條及保障法草案案 案。」"},{"start":56.818,"end":76.822,"text":"是的在106年就受就發現需要了對不對好部長那麼在110年呢同樣的有一個刑事判決說M化車他在犯罪偵查的效率與人民的基本權保障他有個衝突跟抉擇需要明確規定和妥適立法請問部長是不是因為這樣的關係我們趕快推出了科技偵查法"},{"start":78.055,"end":86.625,"text":"其實科技偵查推已經推一段時間一段時間那對啊從106 110都被告知啦那為什麼現在才推出了科技偵查及保障法呢"},{"start":87.714,"end":112.603,"text":"那這部分的確是我們現在的科技的發展自信而已。我是說很早就知道可是法體制的一個嚴格好像有點嚴當我們看一下在四年前是不是法務部曾經有預告過法案有有嗎那時候是蔡部長的時候那時候我們看到的在野黨提出說科技偵查出爐全民公題威權再現是由於在野黨的質疑使得我們法務部的腳步慢了下來"},{"start":116.004,"end":139.287,"text":"那這個他是要跟委員報告因為的確是科技偵查這部分各位的那個可能各界的意見是非常通是的所以各界的意見都很多所以花了很多時間去整合各界意見所以到現在仍然有要求放在刑事訴訟法或者是用科技偵查法的專法來訂定是不是這樣的一個體制選擇就存在了的確是有這個好那我們往下看"},{"start":139.847,"end":141.168,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":164.952,"end":181.501,"text":"檸檬局的飛機也是空拍啊,那我們用無人也是空拍啊,甚至美軍使用的戰術使用的那種微型的進去室內去看人質被綁票在哪裡的也是空拍啊,那那種東西很難界定嘛,那目前你們就把它先暫時放在一邊是不是這樣?"},{"start":182.701,"end":199.355,"text":"我們現在科技偵查法科技偵查的保障法科證法最主要是我們我們要把新的一些坑可以使用的科技工具納入列舉的方式所以我們先是在234是列舉這三條所以未來如果有新的科技偵查的方式出來"},{"start":199.855,"end":201.357,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 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案﹖一）行"},{"start":290.902,"end":308.144,"text":"錢防制法的對象有關聯的人或車都有可能,好那這就是我們很關心的,也是為什麼我認為說必須將原定的20日以上的法官保留限縮在24小時以上就必須有法官來認定那在24小時以內才准予依據偵查的必要性來實施是不是這樣子"},{"start":309.517,"end":332.964,"text":"好那我們那接下來看一下的GPS人臉追蹤辨識跟車牌的自動化辨識我們看到了啦其實呢在德國呢他2021年在世修牙他們刑訴的當中納入了包括這樣的一個監視器那請問這樣的一個監視器有人臉辨識跟車牌中辨識你們有做區隔嗎"},{"start":333.786,"end":335.247,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案"},{"start":357.258,"end":382.685,"text":"我們基本上是認同的因為在車輛車牌的部分是在公共空間在自己駕駛人到底是誰他沒辦法完全連結到個人的隱私的包括他生活圖像的問題所以單純車牌的部分我們認為我們認同法務部剛剛的見解好我們講到GPSGPS呢他是基於安置主動安置一個追蹤裝置在人或物件的身上"},{"start":384.446,"end":388.591,"text":"車牌及車輛是公共上可辨識的,基於追蹤嫌犯的可能移動位置入境,所以你用車牌來調取。」"},{"start":403.729,"end":406.51,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":433.462,"end":460.236,"text":"這個這個委員你關心這個這個問題這個是在這個我們在草案裡面並沒有這些的一些的沒有啊車牌自動辨識要有有前端要有攝影機啊有攝影機我才知道拍到車牌啊有車牌在我的數據資料庫裡面我才知道他移動的路徑啊這就是車牌自動辨識的目的嗎這是掉盲過往的一個資料不是我們這要處理的問題我當然知道就是說現在要配置監視器要配置監視器影像的大數據的資料庫"},{"start":461.417,"end":462.357,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 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案。"},{"start":668.574,"end":682.684,"text":"這是通保法要處理的問題對就是這是通保法所以這一次呢我們科證法就不處理了好那最後呢關於比照通保法第27條第二項洩密情節重大的送評鑑因為在剛剛講的這些科技偵查的過程當中難免"},{"start":683.704,"end":699.593,"text":"檢查的發動者他可能會因此而窒息其他與跟犯罪偵查無關的資訊那如果他這幾時候有對外洩露或者說察覺到室內的隱私行為這些情況那他如果有做一些非偵查以外的使用那你們怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":703.591,"end":731.361,"text":"各位報告我們的法官法以及我們的檢察官倫理規範就這個違反檢察官倫理情節重大委員座提到這個情形本來我們法官法就有他送評鑑的記錄但是通報法第27條第二項是有他其實是一個重複規定他是重複規定所以你們認為通報法的27條第二項重複規定你們在裡不需要規定當然用法官法的第30條第二項第89條第4項就可以了他本來就是要送個案評鑑好那最後呢我們說的他案無關或違法取得證據的禁用行為"},{"start":731.821,"end":743.826,"text":"在刑事訴訟法第158條之四他有規定那目前通報法18條之一也有規定但是在我們這裡沒有規定你覺得有沒有你是認為也是重複規定不需要再定還是認為這裡面我們需要再加強"},{"start":745.981,"end":746.741,"text":"所以這就問題來了之前有提到刑事訴訟的問題目前克森法雖然獨立立法"},{"start":773.007,"end":784.117,"text":"但他相關的一些防防備的規定他是要適用到刑事訴訟法的規定是不是這樣子那包括可是通報法我們有有做重複的規定啊那你們認為有沒有必要"},{"start":785.523,"end":804.021,"text":"因為通保法規範的是通訊內容。它是違反人權的這個成績化保障是比較高的。所以它一違反就絕對排除。但是我們通保法規範它沒有內容。所以我們用相對保除就相對排除的這個158之四就足以保障這個證據這段的說明很重要"},{"start":804.682,"end":833.514,"text":"科偵法及通保法因為一個前者涉及到有內容後者涉及到只是一個外部行為的路徑或者說確切的位置並沒有涉及到他的內容所以在他的保障的規範上強度上就沒有像通保法是這樣的是這樣意思嗎?好不然那因為待會我們要繼續做大體討論跟主要審查所以希望未來您剛剛回應到黃委員的說的包括我們建清改檢察官們的期待希望未來部長有機會多多到跟第一線的人員多多做這些經驗跟意見的交流可以嗎?可以"},{"start":834.394,"end":837.827,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"}]}}}}