{"id":153569,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153569","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98e04d0b5fde611b32e41b4d0ae556a0d968f95e3d087843c2ddd93173464eae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:21:14 - 10:32:40","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:21:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:32:40+08:00","duration":686,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時21分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：請鄭部長。"],["林委員思銘：部長好。我想今天大家非常關心這個科技偵查法，其實我們看這部法主要的核心就是第二條、第三條、第四條，我逐一來就教部長。部長，第二條講說檢察官偵查認為有必要時，得用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法來追蹤位置。所以我首先請教部長，全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法，除了我們追蹤嫌犯位置的資訊，還能蒐集到哪些相關的環境資訊？就是你用全球衛星的定位系統去定位這個犯罪嫌疑人，除了他的位置以外，你還可以蒐集到什麼相關的資訊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分以GPS來講，它只能夠定位車輛到哪裡去，就是它的位置在哪裡，至於到底是車輛是哪個人在開，或者是他車內的一個情形以及他談話的內容我們都不知道，也不清楚，包括生物特徵這部分也沒辦法去蒐集。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以只知道他的行蹤。"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是追蹤那個行蹤。"],["林委員思銘：追蹤他這臺車子的蹤跡、軌跡。"],["鄭部長銘謙：軌跡而已。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以我就很好奇啦，因為你後段寫「或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置」部長，這一條後段講說「或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法」是指哪些方法，你可不可以例示一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在最主要是採美國的GPS，歐盟那邊也有伽利略的一個定位系統，事實上都是在追蹤軌跡，就是位置而已。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以非生物特徵的其他方法，你講的只有這個嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，因為現在……"],["林委員思銘：你講全球衛星定位系統，這個我們大家很瞭解，GPS嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，現在很普遍在使用。"],["林委員思銘：但是其他的到底是哪幾種方法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我舉例，像歐盟有伽利略的一個定位系統，那可能有一個新的科技，有一個更先進的定位系統，這個我們不知道。"],["林委員思銘：所以你們在條文裡面沒有特別去把它寫清楚？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，其他就是因為可能會有一個新的科技的方式，這部分我們再來……"],["林委員思銘：好，部長，我想這個我們知道啦！當然你現在只是講說用全球衛星GPS的定位系統，我們知道國外有所謂的天眼系統，這個天眼系統利用衛星定位可以清楚地看到嫌犯的蹤跡，或者剛才講的，嫌犯的人跟臉都可以看得非常清楚，所以我們現在這部法案是把人臉辨識系統排除嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["林委員思銘：你只去知道他的車子、他的一個蹤跡或者是除了生物特徵以外的這些嫌犯的蹤跡，讓你可以去做判斷，所以用這種方式去追蹤的話……可能我電影看太多了，我們看到美國有所謂的追蹤，也就是斬首行動啦，對這些他們想要斬首的恐怖分子，他們可以利用衛星定位系統，很清楚地看到這個嫌犯是在哪一個空間裡面、哪一個房間裡面、這個人是不是他們要追蹤的人，那我們的這一套系統能達到什麼程度？"],["鄭部長銘謙：只能做到追蹤軌跡，委員如果支持的話，當然可以納入一個再……"],["林委員思銘：部長，其實……"],["鄭部長銘謙：立法通過後可以作為修法的一個重要參考。"],["林委員思銘：當然，這個大家見仁見智，很多人都認為這個有侵犯人權之疑，其實我個人是認為，如果要讓犯罪嫌疑人無所遁形，用這個GPS的追蹤系統去定位他，那很可能……你知道現在的嫌犯非常狡猾！"],["鄭部長銘謙：很狡猾！"],["林委員思銘：比如你用手機定位去查他好了，你認為嫌犯只會帶一支手機嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個委員很清楚……"],["林委員思銘：對啊！所以道高一尺，魔高一丈，如果我們要讓科技偵查真的發揮它的效用，我個人覺得可能在某部分我們要有所突破，否則再用這種傳統的方式來做科技偵查，其實我個人覺得在這種AI大數據的時代，我們的這個科技偵查方法其實是落伍的。我講很簡單的例子，因為你剛才提到空拍機的問題，這一次條文的規定到底有沒有包含空拍機？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有包含。"],["林委員思銘：就是在條文第四條。"],["鄭部長銘謙：第四條。"],["林委員思銘：對，沒有包含空拍機嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有包含。"],["林委員思銘：但是部長，你看條文的規定「檢察官偵查或檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本刑三年以上有期徒刑之罪，有相當理由認為具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物與本案有關，得從該空間外，使用非實體侵入性之科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及攝錄影像。」所以從這個條文裡面，講說得從該空間外，使用非實體侵入性之方法對該空間內之人監看或者錄影，從條文裡面看，並沒有排除空拍機啊。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是因為這一條是要處理營救，因為現在詐團，譬如說機房是在很隱密的一個空間內，或者是把人囚禁在裡面，囚禁在一個空間內，這部分我們的這種科技方法，最有名的就是用熱顯像儀去測那個溫度來形成圖像。"],["林委員思銘：是，部長，所以我剛才才會提到……"],["鄭部長銘謙：技術性上，空拍機是可以直接攝錄的，這個除了沒辦法以外，空拍機主要是適用在一個公共空間，這個不是對室內偵查的一個方式。另外，當然空拍機也可以在戶外，可以用其他的搭載設備，譬如委員關心的M化車這種設備，或者GPS這種設備，當然這個就不能獨立來規定空拍機的性質，這還是要回歸到科偵法裡面來做一個規範。"],["林委員思銘：是，部長，所以我剛剛才會講到，其實這部科偵法偵查的手法……"],["鄭部長銘謙：還是太保守。"],["林委員思銘：我個人一直覺得真的很保守，你講說可以用什麼高倍數的攝影機或照相機，透過窗戶拍攝屋內被囚禁的被害人情況，或透過熱顯像設備探知內部溫度等去做調查，實際上為了保護我們的人權，為了保護隱私，進入屋內拍照或在屋內裝設攝影機的方式，即非許可的範圍嘛，所以我聽起來，以這個條文的設計來看，這跟徵信社過去在屋外監看屋內有什麼動靜沒有兩樣，我們的科技偵查是用這種方式喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：最主要還是要兼顧到隱私的一個保障，因為在人的隱私基本權這部分，我們是非常注意的。"],["林委員思銘：所以我的感受是我們還停留在非常低階的科技偵查方式，實際上我剛才也跟你提到，當然國外的天眼系統涉及到人權的保障、隱私各方面，我們認為在這個條文的設計裡面沒有那麼先進，但是現在AI大數據的時代，我們透過衛星的定位其實都可以……或者空拍機，空拍機你都不敢講，到底空中調查涵不涵蓋在這個條文裡面？好像法務部也很保守，我剛才聽到幾個委員在問你，剛才次長也說這個空中調查應該在刑事訴訟法裡面好像有相當的授權，但看不出來耶！反正這個條文裡面就可以用了，你剛才講「得」啊！得從屋外來去攝影，你說空拍機可能會涉及照到第三人的資料或怎麼樣，但是第三人的資料，我想相關的法規你可以即時銷毀嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛才我有提到對內的空拍機，我們空拍機如果掛著熱顯像儀，也可以蒐集這些相關的……"],["林委員思銘：所以其實這個立法我還是希望法務部未來在整個實務的運作上，可能真的要做更先進、高科技各方面，實務研討的方面你可能要再去探究，否則只有法這樣規定，我個人覺得這個說要打詐真的很有限，可能方法、手段上面太落伍了啦！我只能這樣講。","另外，再給我1分鐘。我還是要講，如果說你要去救人，比如說被害人……因為現在我們看的好像感覺就是你只能對這個犯罪嫌疑人去做相關的調查，但是今天你要營救一個被害人，人質在裡面，你要用M化車去調取他的手機的時候，那是不是包含我們被害人的部分？條文裡面好像沒有規定到這個。"],["鄭部長銘謙：最主要是第四條，就是熱顯像儀的，像我們臺版柬埔寨案就有這個問題啦！"],["林委員思銘：但是現在問題就是如果你不知道犯罪嫌疑人的手機號碼，你只知道被害人的手機，家屬提供給你，你是不是對被害人的手機號碼也要去做追蹤？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這可以。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！包含在這個條文裡面嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個在第三條。"],["林委員思銘：是，連被害人的也可以去做……"],["鄭部長銘謙：他如果有手機的話，我們就可以用第三條來處理。"],["林委員思銘：也包含在裡面啦！好，以上，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，也謝謝鄭部長。","先作會議程序的宣告：稍後在翁委員曉玲詢答完畢後，休息5分鐘。接續我們請翁委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-30","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","黃國昌","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案","agenda_id":"1135601_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"153569","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153569","tool":"pyannote","id":"153569-pyannote"},"job_id":"HgoGNJrLxDIhQDea","queued_at":"2024-06-05 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{\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 678.228, \"end\": 678.408, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 678.408, \"end\": 679.11, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 679.11, \"end\": 679.27, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 679.27, \"end\": 679.491, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 679.491, \"end\": 679.631, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 679.631, \"end\": 679.771, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 679.771, \"end\": 679.891, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 679.891, \"end\": 679.992, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 679.992, \"end\": 680.172, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 680.172, \"end\": 680.292, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 680.292, \"end\": 680.392, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 680.392, \"end\": 680.412, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 680.412, \"end\": 680.553, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 680.553, \"end\": 680.653, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 680.653, \"end\": 680.673, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,004 --> 00:00:11,888\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n2\n00:00:23,278 --> 00:00:48,960\n謝謝部長好部長我想今天大家非常關心這個科技偵查法其實這部法我們看到主要的核心就是第二條第三條第四條那我主一來這個就叫部長部長就第二條講說我們檢察官偵查認為有必要時得用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法來追蹤位置\n\n3\n00:00:51,003 --> 00:01:16,338\n我首先請教部長全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法除了我們追蹤嫌犯位置的資訊還能收集到哪些相關的環境資訊就是說你用全國衛星的定位系統你去定位這個犯罪嫌疑人除了他的位置以外你還可以收集到什麼相關的資訊\n\n4\n00:01:21,387 --> 00:01:24,911\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案\n\n5\n00:01:39,989 --> 00:02:04,722\n所以只知道他的行蹤行蹤他追蹤那個行蹤追蹤他這台車子的呃這個呃這個蹤跡蹤跡軌跡而已是所以我就很好奇了因為你後段學說或其他以非辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置那部長那這一這一條後段講說或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法\n\n6\n00:02:05,486 --> 00:02:06,367\n指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指\n\n7\n00:02:33,507 --> 00:02:34,908\n洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n\n8\n00:02:53,945 --> 00:03:09,532\n我們我們知道了國外當然你先只是講說用全球衛星GPS的定位系統那我們知道國外有所謂的天眼系統這個天眼系統可以看到利用衛星定位啊可以清楚的看到說嫌犯他的蹤跡\n\n9\n00:03:11,055 --> 00:03:12,396\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n10\n00:03:36,792 --> 00:03:53,824\n用這種方式來去做追蹤的話其實我是比較一個可能這個電影看太多了我們看到美國有所謂的去追蹤就是斬首行動去對這些他們想要去這個斬首的這些恐怖份子\n\n11\n00:03:54,861 --> 00:04:13,479\n他們可以利用這個衛星定位系統很清楚的看到說這個嫌犯他是在哪一個這個房間裡面哪一個房間裡面那這個人是不是他們要追蹤的人那我們的這一套系統只能達到什麼程度\n\n12\n00:04:14,844 --> 00:04:42,760\n只能做到一個軌跡,那委員如果說至此的話,那待會可以由納入那個一個一個一個一個在（市長部長其實其實通過可以做一個一個修法的一個重要參考。當然這大家見仁見智,很多大家都認為這有侵犯人權的質疑。其實我個人是認為說,如果要讓犯罪嫌疑人無所遁形,用這個GPS的追蹤系統去定位他,\n\n13\n00:04:43,900 --> 00:04:46,363\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n14\n00:04:56,940 --> 00:05:24,506\n這個委員很清楚對啊所以道高一尺磨高一丈對如果說我們要讓科技偵查真的發揮它的效用我個人覺得說可能在某部分我們要有所突破要有所突破否則這個再用這種傳統的方式來這個做一個科技偵查其實我個人覺得在這種AI大數據的時代我們這科技的偵查方法其實是落伍的\n\n15\n00:05:26,058 --> 00:05:43,898\n我講很簡單的例子啦齁。如果說現在我因為你剛才提到說這個呃就是空拍機的問題啊齁那這一次的條文我們看到第三條的欸就是條文裡面的規定喔是不是到底有沒有包含空拍機啊有沒有包含空拍機就是在呃\n\n16\n00:05:46,241 --> 00:05:52,868\n檢察官或檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本刑三年以上有刑徒刑之罪\n\n17\n00:06:03,979 --> 00:06:23,171\n有相當理由認為具隱密或私密合理其擔之空間內之人或物與本案有關得從該空間外使用非實體侵入性之科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及攝錄影像。」所以從這個條裡面你講說得從該空間外\n\n18\n00:06:28,529 --> 00:06:40,807\n來使用非實體侵入性質方法對該空間內之人來監看或者錄影。」所以條文裡面看並沒有排除空拍機啊?這部分因為\n\n19\n00:06:42,421 --> 00:06:44,643\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n20\n00:07:09,085 --> 00:07:10,866\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n21\n00:07:37,446 --> 00:07:54,319\n是那個部長所以我該會講到說其實這部科證法的偵查的手法我個人一直覺得真的很保守我再講就是說你講說可以用什麼高倍數的攝影機或照相機透過窗戶拍攝屋內囚禁被害人的情況或透過熱顯像設備探知內部溫度等\n\n22\n00:08:01,084 --> 00:08:26,236\n來去做調查那實際上為了保護人這個我們人權啊為保護隱私啦所以你什麼進入屋內拍照然後在屋內專攝攝影機放是極非許可的範圍嗎所以我聽起來啊這個條文的設計看起來這跟徵信社在監看監看這個過去在屋外一直監看說哎這個外面去監看屋內有什麼動靜沒有兩樣哎\n\n23\n00:08:28,220 --> 00:08:30,069\n我們的科技偵查是用這種方式喔?\n\n24\n00:08:31,769 --> 00:08:55,228\n因為最主要還是要監護隱私的一個保障因為在一個人的隱私的基本權這部分我們是非常注意的所以我的感受就是說我們還停留在非常低階的一個科技偵查方式裡面實際上我剛才也跟你提到就是說當然國外的天眼系統這個涉及到當然人權的保障的隱私各方面那我們認為在這個條文的設計裡面沒有那麼先進\n\n25\n00:08:58,030 --> 00:09:23,211\n但是現在AI大數據的時代我們透過衛星的定位其實都可以或者空拍機啊剛才你都空拍機你都不敢講到底空中調查含不含蓋在這一個條文裡面好像法務部也很保守我剛才聽到幾個委員在問你你也想說這個空中調查應該他好像剛才次長講說這個應該在刑事訴訟法裡面好像有相當的授權但看不出來\n\n26\n00:09:24,716 --> 00:09:35,574\n其實反而這個條文裡面就可以用了你剛才講得啊得從屋外來去就是可以去攝影啊空拍機你說會可能涉及到會有照到第三人的資料或怎麼樣啊\n\n27\n00:09:37,577 --> 00:10:00,733\n但是第三人的資料我想相關的法規你可以及時銷毀嗎?那個剛才委員有提到就是對內的那個空拍機我們空拍機如果說掛著那個那個熱顯性熱顯性熱顯像以或者是mr可以收集這些的以這相關的所以我想其實這個立法我還是希望法務部未來在這個實務上的運作上面可以做\n\n28\n00:10:01,994 --> 00:10:25,880\n可能真的要做更先進高科技各方面的一個師傅的研討方面你可能要再去探究是否則只有這樣法這樣規定我個人覺得這個說要打詐這個很有限的這個可能方法手段上面太落伍了啦我我只能這樣講了另外就是說我還是要講再給我一分鐘就是說我們在這個如果說你要去去用這個\n\n29\n00:10:28,578 --> 00:10:30,180\n洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n30\n00:10:50,359 --> 00:11:17,667\n條文裏面好像沒有規定到這個。最主要是第四條啦。對。第四條就熱選像以的那個像我們那個台版柬埔災案就這個這個一個問題啦。但是現在如果你不知道犯罪嫌疑人的手機號碼。你只知道被害人的手機啊。家屬提供給你啊。你是不是對被害人的手機號碼。你也要去做一個追蹤啊。這可以。是啊。包含在這個條文裏面嗎。這個在第三條。是。第三條可以。\n\n31\n00:11:17,827 --> 00:11:20,673\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2004\t11888\t錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n23278\t48960\t謝謝部長好部長我想今天大家非常關心這個科技偵查法其實這部法我們看到主要的核心就是第二條第三條第四條那我主一來這個就叫部長部長就第二條講說我們檢察官偵查認為有必要時得用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法來追蹤位置\n51003\t76338\t我首先請教部長全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法除了我們追蹤嫌犯位置的資訊還能收集到哪些相關的環境資訊就是說你用全國衛星的定位系統你去定位這個犯罪嫌疑人除了他的位置以外你還可以收集到什麼相關的資訊\n81387\t84911\t錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案\n99989\t124722\t所以只知道他的行蹤行蹤他追蹤那個行蹤追蹤他這台車子的呃這個呃這個蹤跡蹤跡軌跡而已是所以我就很好奇了因為你後段學說或其他以非辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置那部長那這一這一條後段講說或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法\n125486\t126367\t指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指\n153507\t154908\t洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n173945\t189532\t我們我們知道了國外當然你先只是講說用全球衛星GPS的定位系統那我們知道國外有所謂的天眼系統這個天眼系統可以看到利用衛星定位啊可以清楚的看到說嫌犯他的蹤跡\n191055\t192396\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案。\n216792\t233824\t用這種方式來去做追蹤的話其實我是比較一個可能這個電影看太多了我們看到美國有所謂的去追蹤就是斬首行動去對這些他們想要去這個斬首的這些恐怖份子\n234861\t253479\t他們可以利用這個衛星定位系統很清楚的看到說這個嫌犯他是在哪一個這個房間裡面哪一個房間裡面那這個人是不是他們要追蹤的人那我們的這一套系統只能達到什麼程度\n254844\t282760\t只能做到一個軌跡,那委員如果說至此的話,那待會可以由納入那個一個一個一個一個在（市長部長其實其實通過可以做一個一個修法的一個重要參考。當然這大家見仁見智,很多大家都認為這有侵犯人權的質疑。其實我個人是認為說,如果要讓犯罪嫌疑人無所遁形,用這個GPS的追蹤系統去定位他,\n283900\t286363\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n296940\t324506\t這個委員很清楚對啊所以道高一尺磨高一丈對如果說我們要讓科技偵查真的發揮它的效用我個人覺得說可能在某部分我們要有所突破要有所突破否則這個再用這種傳統的方式來這個做一個科技偵查其實我個人覺得在這種AI大數據的時代我們這科技的偵查方法其實是落伍的\n326058\t343898\t我講很簡單的例子啦齁。如果說現在我因為你剛才提到說這個呃就是空拍機的問題啊齁那這一次的條文我們看到第三條的欸就是條文裡面的規定喔是不是到底有沒有包含空拍機啊有沒有包含空拍機就是在呃\n346241\t352868\t檢察官或檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本刑三年以上有刑徒刑之罪\n363979\t383171\t有相當理由認為具隱密或私密合理其擔之空間內之人或物與本案有關得從該空間外使用非實體侵入性之科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及攝錄影像。」所以從這個條裡面你講說得從該空間外\n388529\t400807\t來使用非實體侵入性質方法對該空間內之人來監看或者錄影。」所以條文裡面看並沒有排除空拍機啊?這部分因為\n402421\t404643\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n429085\t430866\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。\n457446\t474319\t是那個部長所以我該會講到說其實這部科證法的偵查的手法我個人一直覺得真的很保守我再講就是說你講說可以用什麼高倍數的攝影機或照相機透過窗戶拍攝屋內囚禁被害人的情況或透過熱顯像設備探知內部溫度等\n481084\t506236\t來去做調查那實際上為了保護人這個我們人權啊為保護隱私啦所以你什麼進入屋內拍照然後在屋內專攝攝影機放是極非許可的範圍嗎所以我聽起來啊這個條文的設計看起來這跟徵信社在監看監看這個過去在屋外一直監看說哎這個外面去監看屋內有什麼動靜沒有兩樣哎\n508220\t510069\t我們的科技偵查是用這種方式喔?\n511769\t535228\t因為最主要還是要監護隱私的一個保障因為在一個人的隱私的基本權這部分我們是非常注意的所以我的感受就是說我們還停留在非常低階的一個科技偵查方式裡面實際上我剛才也跟你提到就是說當然國外的天眼系統這個涉及到當然人權的保障的隱私各方面那我們認為在這個條文的設計裡面沒有那麼先進\n538030\t563211\t但是現在AI大數據的時代我們透過衛星的定位其實都可以或者空拍機啊剛才你都空拍機你都不敢講到底空中調查含不含蓋在這一個條文裡面好像法務部也很保守我剛才聽到幾個委員在問你你也想說這個空中調查應該他好像剛才次長講說這個應該在刑事訴訟法裡面好像有相當的授權但看不出來\n564716\t575574\t其實反而這個條文裡面就可以用了你剛才講得啊得從屋外來去就是可以去攝影啊空拍機你說會可能涉及到會有照到第三人的資料或怎麼樣啊\n577577\t600733\t但是第三人的資料我想相關的法規你可以及時銷毀嗎?那個剛才委員有提到就是對內的那個空拍機我們空拍機如果說掛著那個那個熱顯性熱顯性熱顯像以或者是mr可以收集這些的以這相關的所以我想其實這個立法我還是希望法務部未來在這個實務上的運作上面可以做\n601994\t625880\t可能真的要做更先進高科技各方面的一個師傅的研討方面你可能要再去探究是否則只有這樣法這樣規定我個人覺得這個說要打詐這個很有限的這個可能方法手段上面太落伍了啦我我只能這樣講了另外就是說我還是要講再給我一分鐘就是說我們在這個如果說你要去去用這個\n628578\t630180\t洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n650359\t677667\t條文裏面好像沒有規定到這個。最主要是第四條啦。對。第四條就熱選像以的那個像我們那個台版柬埔災案就這個這個一個問題啦。但是現在如果你不知道犯罪嫌疑人的手機號碼。你只知道被害人的手機啊。家屬提供給你啊。你是不是對被害人的手機號碼。你也要去做一個追蹤啊。這可以。是啊。包含在這個條文裏面嗎。這個在第三條。是。第三條可以。\n677827\t680673\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n","txt":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n謝謝部長好部長我想今天大家非常關心這個科技偵查法其實這部法我們看到主要的核心就是第二條第三條第四條那我主一來這個就叫部長部長就第二條講說我們檢察官偵查認為有必要時得用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法來追蹤位置\n我首先請教部長全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法除了我們追蹤嫌犯位置的資訊還能收集到哪些相關的環境資訊就是說你用全國衛星的定位系統你去定位這個犯罪嫌疑人除了他的位置以外你還可以收集到什麼相關的資訊\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案\n所以只知道他的行蹤行蹤他追蹤那個行蹤追蹤他這台車子的呃這個呃這個蹤跡蹤跡軌跡而已是所以我就很好奇了因為你後段學說或其他以非辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置那部長那這一這一條後段講說或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法\n指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指\n洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n我們我們知道了國外當然你先只是講說用全球衛星GPS的定位系統那我們知道國外有所謂的天眼系統這個天眼系統可以看到利用衛星定位啊可以清楚的看到說嫌犯他的蹤跡\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案。\n用這種方式來去做追蹤的話其實我是比較一個可能這個電影看太多了我們看到美國有所謂的去追蹤就是斬首行動去對這些他們想要去這個斬首的這些恐怖份子\n他們可以利用這個衛星定位系統很清楚的看到說這個嫌犯他是在哪一個這個房間裡面哪一個房間裡面那這個人是不是他們要追蹤的人那我們的這一套系統只能達到什麼程度\n只能做到一個軌跡,那委員如果說至此的話,那待會可以由納入那個一個一個一個一個在（市長部長其實其實通過可以做一個一個修法的一個重要參考。當然這大家見仁見智,很多大家都認為這有侵犯人權的質疑。其實我個人是認為說,如果要讓犯罪嫌疑人無所遁形,用這個GPS的追蹤系統去定位他,\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n這個委員很清楚對啊所以道高一尺磨高一丈對如果說我們要讓科技偵查真的發揮它的效用我個人覺得說可能在某部分我們要有所突破要有所突破否則這個再用這種傳統的方式來這個做一個科技偵查其實我個人覺得在這種AI大數據的時代我們這科技的偵查方法其實是落伍的\n我講很簡單的例子啦齁。如果說現在我因為你剛才提到說這個呃就是空拍機的問題啊齁那這一次的條文我們看到第三條的欸就是條文裡面的規定喔是不是到底有沒有包含空拍機啊有沒有包含空拍機就是在呃\n檢察官或檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本刑三年以上有刑徒刑之罪\n有相當理由認為具隱密或私密合理其擔之空間內之人或物與本案有關得從該空間外使用非實體侵入性之科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及攝錄影像。」所以從這個條裡面你講說得從該空間外\n來使用非實體侵入性質方法對該空間內之人來監看或者錄影。」所以條文裡面看並沒有排除空拍機啊?這部分因為\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。\n是那個部長所以我該會講到說其實這部科證法的偵查的手法我個人一直覺得真的很保守我再講就是說你講說可以用什麼高倍數的攝影機或照相機透過窗戶拍攝屋內囚禁被害人的情況或透過熱顯像設備探知內部溫度等\n來去做調查那實際上為了保護人這個我們人權啊為保護隱私啦所以你什麼進入屋內拍照然後在屋內專攝攝影機放是極非許可的範圍嗎所以我聽起來啊這個條文的設計看起來這跟徵信社在監看監看這個過去在屋外一直監看說哎這個外面去監看屋內有什麼動靜沒有兩樣哎\n我們的科技偵查是用這種方式喔?\n因為最主要還是要監護隱私的一個保障因為在一個人的隱私的基本權這部分我們是非常注意的所以我的感受就是說我們還停留在非常低階的一個科技偵查方式裡面實際上我剛才也跟你提到就是說當然國外的天眼系統這個涉及到當然人權的保障的隱私各方面那我們認為在這個條文的設計裡面沒有那麼先進\n但是現在AI大數據的時代我們透過衛星的定位其實都可以或者空拍機啊剛才你都空拍機你都不敢講到底空中調查含不含蓋在這一個條文裡面好像法務部也很保守我剛才聽到幾個委員在問你你也想說這個空中調查應該他好像剛才次長講說這個應該在刑事訴訟法裡面好像有相當的授權但看不出來\n其實反而這個條文裡面就可以用了你剛才講得啊得從屋外來去就是可以去攝影啊空拍機你說會可能涉及到會有照到第三人的資料或怎麼樣啊\n但是第三人的資料我想相關的法規你可以及時銷毀嗎?那個剛才委員有提到就是對內的那個空拍機我們空拍機如果說掛著那個那個熱顯性熱顯性熱顯像以或者是mr可以收集這些的以這相關的所以我想其實這個立法我還是希望法務部未來在這個實務上的運作上面可以做\n可能真的要做更先進高科技各方面的一個師傅的研討方面你可能要再去探究是否則只有這樣法這樣規定我個人覺得這個說要打詐這個很有限的這個可能方法手段上面太落伍了啦我我只能這樣講了另外就是說我還是要講再給我一分鐘就是說我們在這個如果說你要去去用這個\n洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n條文裏面好像沒有規定到這個。最主要是第四條啦。對。第四條就熱選像以的那個像我們那個台版柬埔災案就這個這個一個問題啦。但是現在如果你不知道犯罪嫌疑人的手機號碼。你只知道被害人的手機啊。家屬提供給你啊。你是不是對被害人的手機號碼。你也要去做一個追蹤啊。這可以。是啊。包含在這個條文裏面嗎。這個在第三條。是。第三條可以。\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.004 --> 00:11.888\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n00:23.278 --> 00:48.960\n謝謝部長好部長我想今天大家非常關心這個科技偵查法其實這部法我們看到主要的核心就是第二條第三條第四條那我主一來這個就叫部長部長就第二條講說我們檢察官偵查認為有必要時得用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法來追蹤位置\n\n00:51.003 --> 01:16.338\n我首先請教部長全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法除了我們追蹤嫌犯位置的資訊還能收集到哪些相關的環境資訊就是說你用全國衛星的定位系統你去定位這個犯罪嫌疑人除了他的位置以外你還可以收集到什麼相關的資訊\n\n01:21.387 --> 01:24.911\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案\n\n01:39.989 --> 02:04.722\n所以只知道他的行蹤行蹤他追蹤那個行蹤追蹤他這台車子的呃這個呃這個蹤跡蹤跡軌跡而已是所以我就很好奇了因為你後段學說或其他以非辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置那部長那這一這一條後段講說或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法\n\n02:05.486 --> 02:06.367\n指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指指\n\n02:33.507 --> 02:34.908\n洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n\n02:53.945 --> 03:09.532\n我們我們知道了國外當然你先只是講說用全球衛星GPS的定位系統那我們知道國外有所謂的天眼系統這個天眼系統可以看到利用衛星定位啊可以清楚的看到說嫌犯他的蹤跡\n\n03:11.055 --> 03:12.396\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n03:36.792 --> 03:53.824\n用這種方式來去做追蹤的話其實我是比較一個可能這個電影看太多了我們看到美國有所謂的去追蹤就是斬首行動去對這些他們想要去這個斬首的這些恐怖份子\n\n03:54.861 --> 04:13.479\n他們可以利用這個衛星定位系統很清楚的看到說這個嫌犯他是在哪一個這個房間裡面哪一個房間裡面那這個人是不是他們要追蹤的人那我們的這一套系統只能達到什麼程度\n\n04:14.844 --> 04:42.760\n只能做到一個軌跡,那委員如果說至此的話,那待會可以由納入那個一個一個一個一個在（市長部長其實其實通過可以做一個一個修法的一個重要參考。當然這大家見仁見智,很多大家都認為這有侵犯人權的質疑。其實我個人是認為說,如果要讓犯罪嫌疑人無所遁形,用這個GPS的追蹤系統去定位他,\n\n04:43.900 --> 04:46.363\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。\n\n04:56.940 --> 05:24.506\n這個委員很清楚對啊所以道高一尺磨高一丈對如果說我們要讓科技偵查真的發揮它的效用我個人覺得說可能在某部分我們要有所突破要有所突破否則這個再用這種傳統的方式來這個做一個科技偵查其實我個人覺得在這種AI大數據的時代我們這科技的偵查方法其實是落伍的\n\n05:26.058 --> 05:43.898\n我講很簡單的例子啦齁。如果說現在我因為你剛才提到說這個呃就是空拍機的問題啊齁那這一次的條文我們看到第三條的欸就是條文裡面的規定喔是不是到底有沒有包含空拍機啊有沒有包含空拍機就是在呃\n\n05:46.241 --> 05:52.868\n檢察官或檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本刑三年以上有刑徒刑之罪\n\n06:03.979 --> 06:23.171\n有相當理由認為具隱密或私密合理其擔之空間內之人或物與本案有關得從該空間外使用非實體侵入性之科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及攝錄影像。」所以從這個條裡面你講說得從該空間外\n\n06:28.529 --> 06:40.807\n來使用非實體侵入性質方法對該空間內之人來監看或者錄影。」所以條文裡面看並沒有排除空拍機啊?這部分因為\n\n06:42.421 --> 06:44.643\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n07:09.085 --> 07:10.866\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n07:37.446 --> 07:54.319\n是那個部長所以我該會講到說其實這部科證法的偵查的手法我個人一直覺得真的很保守我再講就是說你講說可以用什麼高倍數的攝影機或照相機透過窗戶拍攝屋內囚禁被害人的情況或透過熱顯像設備探知內部溫度等\n\n08:01.084 --> 08:26.236\n來去做調查那實際上為了保護人這個我們人權啊為保護隱私啦所以你什麼進入屋內拍照然後在屋內專攝攝影機放是極非許可的範圍嗎所以我聽起來啊這個條文的設計看起來這跟徵信社在監看監看這個過去在屋外一直監看說哎這個外面去監看屋內有什麼動靜沒有兩樣哎\n\n08:28.220 --> 08:30.069\n我們的科技偵查是用這種方式喔?\n\n08:31.769 --> 08:55.228\n因為最主要還是要監護隱私的一個保障因為在一個人的隱私的基本權這部分我們是非常注意的所以我的感受就是說我們還停留在非常低階的一個科技偵查方式裡面實際上我剛才也跟你提到就是說當然國外的天眼系統這個涉及到當然人權的保障的隱私各方面那我們認為在這個條文的設計裡面沒有那麼先進\n\n08:58.030 --> 09:23.211\n但是現在AI大數據的時代我們透過衛星的定位其實都可以或者空拍機啊剛才你都空拍機你都不敢講到底空中調查含不含蓋在這一個條文裡面好像法務部也很保守我剛才聽到幾個委員在問你你也想說這個空中調查應該他好像剛才次長講說這個應該在刑事訴訟法裡面好像有相當的授權但看不出來\n\n09:24.716 --> 09:35.574\n其實反而這個條文裡面就可以用了你剛才講得啊得從屋外來去就是可以去攝影啊空拍機你說會可能涉及到會有照到第三人的資料或怎麼樣啊\n\n09:37.577 --> 10:00.733\n但是第三人的資料我想相關的法規你可以及時銷毀嗎?那個剛才委員有提到就是對內的那個空拍機我們空拍機如果說掛著那個那個熱顯性熱顯性熱顯像以或者是mr可以收集這些的以這相關的所以我想其實這個立法我還是希望法務部未來在這個實務上的運作上面可以做\n\n10:01.994 --> 10:25.880\n可能真的要做更先進高科技各方面的一個師傅的研討方面你可能要再去探究是否則只有這樣法這樣規定我個人覺得這個說要打詐這個很有限的這個可能方法手段上面太落伍了啦我我只能這樣講了另外就是說我還是要講再給我一分鐘就是說我們在這個如果說你要去去用這個\n\n10:28.578 --> 10:30.180\n洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n10:50.359 --> 11:17.667\n條文裏面好像沒有規定到這個。最主要是第四條啦。對。第四條就熱選像以的那個像我們那個台版柬埔災案就這個這個一個問題啦。但是現在如果你不知道犯罪嫌疑人的手機號碼。你只知道被害人的手機啊。家屬提供給你啊。你是不是對被害人的手機號碼。你也要去做一個追蹤啊。這可以。是啊。包含在這個條文裏面嗎。這個在第三條。是。第三條可以。\n\n11:17.827 --> 11:20.673\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.004,"end":11.888,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 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案。"},{"start":216.792,"end":233.824,"text":"用這種方式來去做追蹤的話其實我是比較一個可能這個電影看太多了我們看到美國有所謂的去追蹤就是斬首行動去對這些他們想要去這個斬首的這些恐怖份子"},{"start":234.861,"end":253.479,"text":"他們可以利用這個衛星定位系統很清楚的看到說這個嫌犯他是在哪一個這個房間裡面哪一個房間裡面那這個人是不是他們要追蹤的人那我們的這一套系統只能達到什麼程度"},{"start":254.844,"end":282.76,"text":"只能做到一個軌跡,那委員如果說至此的話,那待會可以由納入那個一個一個一個一個在（市長部長其實其實通過可以做一個一個修法的一個重要參考。當然這大家見仁見智,很多大家都認為這有侵犯人權的質疑。其實我個人是認為說,如果要讓犯罪嫌疑人無所遁形,用這個GPS的追蹤系統去定位他,"},{"start":283.9,"end":286.363,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":296.94,"end":324.506,"text":"這個委員很清楚對啊所以道高一尺磨高一丈對如果說我們要讓科技偵查真的發揮它的效用我個人覺得說可能在某部分我們要有所突破要有所突破否則這個再用這種傳統的方式來這個做一個科技偵查其實我個人覺得在這種AI大數據的時代我們這科技的偵查方法其實是落伍的"},{"start":326.058,"end":343.898,"text":"我講很簡單的例子啦齁。如果說現在我因為你剛才提到說這個呃就是空拍機的問題啊齁那這一次的條文我們看到第三條的欸就是條文裡面的規定喔是不是到底有沒有包含空拍機啊有沒有包含空拍機就是在呃"},{"start":346.241,"end":352.868,"text":"檢察官或檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本刑三年以上有刑徒刑之罪"},{"start":363.979,"end":383.171,"text":"有相當理由認為具隱密或私密合理其擔之空間內之人或物與本案有關得從該空間外使用非實體侵入性之科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及攝錄影像。」所以從這個條裡面你講說得從該空間外"},{"start":388.529,"end":400.807,"text":"來使用非實體侵入性質方法對該空間內之人來監看或者錄影。」所以條文裡面看並沒有排除空拍機啊?這部分因為"},{"start":402.421,"end":404.643,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":429.085,"end":430.866,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":457.446,"end":474.319,"text":"是那個部長所以我該會講到說其實這部科證法的偵查的手法我個人一直覺得真的很保守我再講就是說你講說可以用什麼高倍數的攝影機或照相機透過窗戶拍攝屋內囚禁被害人的情況或透過熱顯像設備探知內部溫度等"},{"start":481.084,"end":506.236,"text":"來去做調查那實際上為了保護人這個我們人權啊為保護隱私啦所以你什麼進入屋內拍照然後在屋內專攝攝影機放是極非許可的範圍嗎所以我聽起來啊這個條文的設計看起來這跟徵信社在監看監看這個過去在屋外一直監看說哎這個外面去監看屋內有什麼動靜沒有兩樣哎"},{"start":508.22,"end":510.069,"text":"我們的科技偵查是用這種方式喔?"},{"start":511.769,"end":535.228,"text":"因為最主要還是要監護隱私的一個保障因為在一個人的隱私的基本權這部分我們是非常注意的所以我的感受就是說我們還停留在非常低階的一個科技偵查方式裡面實際上我剛才也跟你提到就是說當然國外的天眼系統這個涉及到當然人權的保障的隱私各方面那我們認為在這個條文的設計裡面沒有那麼先進"},{"start":538.03,"end":563.211,"text":"但是現在AI大數據的時代我們透過衛星的定位其實都可以或者空拍機啊剛才你都空拍機你都不敢講到底空中調查含不含蓋在這一個條文裡面好像法務部也很保守我剛才聽到幾個委員在問你你也想說這個空中調查應該他好像剛才次長講說這個應該在刑事訴訟法裡面好像有相當的授權但看不出來"},{"start":564.716,"end":575.574,"text":"其實反而這個條文裡面就可以用了你剛才講得啊得從屋外來去就是可以去攝影啊空拍機你說會可能涉及到會有照到第三人的資料或怎麼樣啊"},{"start":577.577,"end":600.733,"text":"但是第三人的資料我想相關的法規你可以及時銷毀嗎?那個剛才委員有提到就是對內的那個空拍機我們空拍機如果說掛著那個那個熱顯性熱顯性熱顯像以或者是mr可以收集這些的以這相關的所以我想其實這個立法我還是希望法務部未來在這個實務上的運作上面可以做"},{"start":601.994,"end":625.88,"text":"可能真的要做更先進高科技各方面的一個師傅的研討方面你可能要再去探究是否則只有這樣法這樣規定我個人覺得這個說要打詐這個很有限的這個可能方法手段上面太落伍了啦我我只能這樣講了另外就是說我還是要講再給我一分鐘就是說我們在這個如果說你要去去用這個"},{"start":628.578,"end":630.18,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":650.359,"end":677.667,"text":"條文裏面好像沒有規定到這個。最主要是第四條啦。對。第四條就熱選像以的那個像我們那個台版柬埔災案就這個這個一個問題啦。但是現在如果你不知道犯罪嫌疑人的手機號碼。你只知道被害人的手機啊。家屬提供給你啊。你是不是對被害人的手機號碼。你也要去做一個追蹤啊。這可以。是啊。包含在這個條文裏面嗎。這個在第三條。是。第三條可以。"},{"start":677.827,"end":680.673,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"}]}}}}