{"id":153584,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153584","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98ddc7f98fb30a922d7e99b63b7a11dbca11da973c502cee622cdafff4c0ecf7955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:52:08 - 11:00:51","影片長度":"00:08:43","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:52:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:00:51+08:00","duration":523,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":392,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時52分）請嚴主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：主委，其實有很多來就讀中正預校或者是三軍官校的學子，過去可能是因為家境貧窮，或者是讀軍校可以包辦生活花費，也包括可能會有一些津貼來照顧家庭，所以我們知道很多軍人是從15歲、18歲就進入到軍人體系，後來就變成為榮民、領終身俸，這是很多軍人他的生命軌跡，所以我們也可以看到，軍旅生涯幾乎也就是他職業生涯的大半部分，退伍即退休。可是現在徵募並行的狀況之下，軍隊其實是需要大量服役4年到9年的短役期官兵，請主委各位看一下螢幕上退輔會的統計資料，最近3年退伍人員中，服役10年以上的第一類官兵，比例大概是36%，平均年齡接近41歲；服役4到9年的，比例大概有64%，平均年齡大概26歲。所以不論是第一類或第二類，就這個表上來看，軍旅生涯恐怕不會是他們職涯的最終站，甚至可能是他們的第一站，這只是其中的一個階段，所以這時候退輔會就學跟就業的功能，我覺得大家就會非常、非常的期待喔！","依照我們現行的法規，在國軍屆退官兵就業輔導措施實施要點裡面，目前看起來只有在退伍前半年要接受職業訓練，主委，你覺得這樣夠嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：時間太短了一點。"],["洪委員申翰：時間太短了一點，對不對？所以有很多年輕人不一定是不願意從軍，但他們一想到或者從過去前人的例子裡面聽到，離開部隊要找下一份工作幾乎是從零開始，不容易有累積，他們一聽到這個訊息，其實就打退堂鼓了，這也是為什麼現在招募軍人難度增高的原因。","下面的重點來了，我要跟主委討論，關於軍事跟民間專長的轉換，其實我們這邊談的不是什麼新的新聞，我們看到2022年國防部有一個軍職專長轉銜民間職業對照計畫，主委，這個計畫最後怎麼了？"],["池處長玉蘭：委員好，我是就學就業處處長……"],["洪委員申翰：我是說這個計畫最後怎麼了？我剛才是問：國防部2022年軍職專長轉銜民間職業對照計畫最後怎麼了？"],["池處長玉蘭：我們其實從109年就跟國防部在談這件事情，但是我們尊重國防部因為有戰訓本務的一個考量，還有其他的因素，所以它就暫停了，但是我們現在還是持續在溝通……"],["洪委員申翰：對，我們就直說了，這個計畫後來失敗了，國防部後來很公開的表示，軍職專長跟民間職業兩者屬性不同，無法順利的轉銜及對照，所以後來這個計畫就告終了，就是你剛才說的暫停，這當然是因為國防部當時講的是很簡單的職業別的對照，比方說飛行員，就是讓他變成轉飛民航機；如果你有開軍卡的駕照，你可以就去開民間的卡車，這幾乎是非常非常直覺性的對照，但問題就來了，那野戰部隊、裝甲兵要對照到什麼呢？沒有職業可以對照啊！所以這是為什麼當時這個計畫很難成功的原因。","可是我現在要講的不是簡單的職業別的對照，我想請主委參考一下其他部會的做法，有幾個我覺得是值得參照的，比方說勞動部的職能基準一覽表裡面，它就分為幾個層次，把職能的內涵包括他的知能，做了更進一步的分析跟探討；勞動部找專家學者來分析，拆分每一個職業，像投影片的第一層，分成主要職責、工作任務，甚至下到第三層，就是要把他的知識面、技能面全部都給挖出來跟呈現出來，以物流管理人員來說，他的職能的基礎，第一個，他的主要職責可能是協調車隊來管控物流；第二個，他的工作任務是要執行車隊管控任務；第三個，下面也把他的知識跟技能給分析出來，這不是只有勞動部這樣做，包括經濟部也有iPAS；包括教育部也有就職平臺UCAN，其實都採用這種細分的科學分析的方法，坦白說，現在我們看到只有國防部沒有這樣做，他們沒有把職能基礎仔細的細分、分類出來，再加上軍隊本身就有它的封閉性，所以外界根本就不知道每個官科到底在做什麼。我要問主委，如果我們把其他部會相關的、可以值得參考的做法都攤在眼前，你覺得退輔會有哪些事情可以多做？"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員給我們指導，我覺得這個很有參考的價值，現在我們碰到的困難，剛剛處長講了，還有委員所發現的，就是這一塊，就是盲點，怎麼樣能夠突破，參考剛剛您列出的勞動部、經濟部、教育部，怎麼樣去把它細分，一定有一些是可以跟軍民介接的工作。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這件事，你接下來新官上任……"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們會努力。"],["洪委員申翰：你要做嗎？你覺得這是退輔會應該大力去推動的事情嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：當然。"],["洪委員申翰：主委，你覺得你們會怎麼做？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我想先參考一下委員所提供的資料，因為我們的屬性不同、我們的特性不同，但是怎麼樣跟民間這些有相同的地方能夠有所介接，這個我們要把它找出來。"],["洪委員申翰：舉例來說，假設一個營長退伍了，如果他的履歷表上寫的是戰車營營長，你可以想像一個企業老闆，當他看到履歷上面提到戰車營營長，他一定想說：我又沒有戰車給你開！可是如果你有辦法把他的職能做出這樣內涵的細分，你就會發現一個營長他要管理、經營400人生活、演訓的任務，甚至他還要管理很多戰車的維修、調度，這裡面包括領導力、包括運輸管理、包括人資，其實有非常非常專業的管理專才在裡面，如果可以協助他清楚的把這些事情都呈現在履歷上，這對一個民間企業老闆、對於他的需求來說，恐怕會大大的提升。"],["嚴主任委員德發：對，會有幫助。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們長期以來並沒有協助我們的退伍軍人來推進這樣子的工作或這樣的分析。坦白說，我覺得這在行政上面是有很大的問題，主委剛上任，我想提醒你，就我的瞭解，當初、之前在李文忠副主委的時候，有進行一項計畫，就是找了專家學者建立國軍的職能基準表，這個計畫其實是有的，我想問主委，我們應該可以在這個計畫的基礎下面再往前推進吧？"],["嚴主任委員德發：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：那這個計畫第一個會往前推進；第二個，甚至我覺得應該要加速大力地推動，主委應該也沒有問題吧？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，沒問題。"],["洪委員申翰：主委，我希望這個事情你們趕快做一個先期的、充足的準備以後，找其他的部會，參考他們的專家、學者或者他們的經驗，我們把它建立好，我覺得要去跟國防部一起來洽談，這應該也沒有問題吧？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對，我們再協調國防部。"],["池處長玉蘭：跟委員補充報告，我們上個月已經陪同國防部的專案人員，我們已經去拜訪教育部、勞動部跟經濟部，這個相關的職能平臺他們也都瞭解，所以我們會持續去跟國防部來洽談。"],["洪委員申翰：可不可以在下個會期前提出相關具體的、明確的計畫？我們要怎麼來執行這樣的計畫？我就給大家一個新的氣象、新的計畫、新的格局局面吧，我覺得這對退輔會接下來業務推展應該非常有幫助。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們跟國防部合作的狀況、進度，會在下會期的業務報告裡面擺進去。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝！謝謝主委的承諾，我們期待，謝謝！"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員。","處長，你承諾很多東西喔！過去這八、九年，我在這邊聽了很久了，加油，謝謝！","接下來進行詢答的委員伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-24","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","林楚茵","黃仁","陳冠廷","馬文君","徐巧芯","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 512.398, \"end\": 512.418, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 512.418, \"end\": 512.438, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 512.438, \"end\": 512.458, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,583 --> 00:00:01,605\n請嚴主委來主委請洪委員好\n\n2\n00:00:09,571 --> 00:00:31,456\n所以其實我們有很多來就讀中正裕校或者是三軍官校的學子那他過去可能他是因為這個家境貧窮或者是讀軍校包辦生活發花費也包括其實可能會有一些津貼可以來照顧家庭所以其實我們知道有很多這些我們的軍人是從15歲18歲就進入到軍人體系\n\n3\n00:00:36,399 --> 00:00:52,696\n後來成為榮民領終身奉這是很多軍人生命的軌跡所以我們可以看到軍旅生涯幾乎也就是職業生涯的大半部分退伍就退休\n\n4\n00:00:54,278 --> 00:01:11,497\n那可是在現在徵募並行的狀況之下這個軍隊其實是需要大量這個服役4年到9年的這個短役期的官兵那請主委看一下一幕退伍會統計的資料最近3年退伍人員的比例服役10年以上的第一類\n\n5\n00:01:12,498 --> 00:01:32,766\n官兵大概36%那平均年齡接近41歲那服役4到9年的大概有64%平均年齡大概26歲所以不論是第一類或第二類其實就這個表上來看的話軍旅生涯恐怕不會是他們執牙的最終戰甚至可能是他們的第一戰\n\n6\n00:01:34,326 --> 00:01:54,215\n這只是其中的一個階段所以這時候退輔會的就學跟就業的功能我覺得大家就會非常非常的期待那依照我們看得下現在的現行的法規在這個國軍介退官兵就業輔導措施實施要點裡面目前看起來只有在退伍前的前半年要接受職業訓練主委你覺得這樣夠嗎\n\n7\n00:01:57,175 --> 00:02:13,428\n時間太短了一點時間太短了一點嘛對不對所以其實我們看到有很多年輕人他不一定是不願意從軍但他們一想到或者從過去前人的例子裡面聽到說離開部隊要找下一份工作幾乎是從零開始\n\n8\n00:02:14,309 --> 00:02:14,890\n主委不好意思\n\n9\n00:02:28,530 --> 00:02:42,423\n那我這下面重點來是我要跟主委討論我們關於軍事跟這個民間專長的轉換其實我們這邊在談的不是什麼新的新聞我們其實看到2022年國防部其實有一個這個軍職專長轉嫌民間職業對照的這個計畫這個計畫最後怎麼了\n\n10\n00:02:55,079 --> 00:03:12,364\n國防部軍職專長轉弦民間職業對照計畫最後怎麼了?我們其實從109年就跟國防部在談這件事情但是因為我們尊重國防部他因為有戰訓本務的一個考量還有其他的因素所以他就暫停\n\n11\n00:03:13,204 --> 00:03:17,170\n但是我們現在已經還持續在溝通對,我們就只講這個計畫後來失敗了\n\n12\n00:03:20,410 --> 00:03:24,954\n國防部公開表示,軍事專長與民間職業兩者屬性不同,無法順利轉弦及對照。這當然是因為國防部當時是想很簡單的職業別對照,比如飛行員,我就是讓他去找變成是轉飛民航機\n\n13\n00:03:45,450 --> 00:03:56,288\n那如果你開軍卡的駕照你可以就去開民間的卡車這幾乎是非常非常直覺性的這樣子的對照那問題就來啦那你的野戰部隊你的裝甲兵要對到什麼\n\n14\n00:03:57,554 --> 00:04:22,559\n沒有能對照啊對不對所以這是為什麼當時這個計畫其實很難成功的原因可是我現在要講的不是簡單的這個職業別的對照我其實想請主委參考一下其他部會有幾個我覺得值得參照的比方說在勞動部裡面我們看到這個職能基準的一覽表裡面其實它分為幾個層次它其實是把職能的內涵包括它的職能做了更進一步的分析跟探討\n\n15\n00:04:23,439 --> 00:04:40,301\n洪申翰找了專家學者來分析、拆分每一個職業包括投影片的第一層他分了他的主要職責工作的任務甚至下到第三層是要去把他的知識面、技能面全部都給挖出來跟呈現出來所以以這個物流管理人員來說\n\n16\n00:04:41,582 --> 00:05:07,333\n他的職能的基礎第一個職責是可能是協調車隊來管控物流第二個是他的工作任務是要執行車隊管控任務那第三個是他下面也把他的知識跟技能給分析出來這不是只有勞動部這樣做包括經濟部也有IPAS包括教育部也有就職平台的U-CAN其實都採用這種細分的科學分析的方法\n\n17\n00:05:08,336 --> 00:05:08,476\n主席\n\n18\n00:05:25,458 --> 00:05:51,354\n如果我們把其他部會相關的做法可以值得參考的我們現在都攤在眼前你覺得退輔會有哪些事情可以多做是謝謝委員給我們指導我覺得這很有參考的價值現在最主要就是剛剛我們碰到的困難剛剛處長講的還有委員所發現的就是這一塊這是盲點那怎麼樣能夠突破參考剛剛林鄭月娥的勞動部經濟部這個教育部他怎麼樣去把它細分一定有一些\n\n19\n00:05:52,395 --> 00:05:54,456\n主委你覺得你們會怎麼做?\n\n20\n00:06:08,524 --> 00:06:35,952\n我先想參考一下委員所提供的資料然後回去之後我們依據我們的屬性不同我們的特性不同但是怎麼樣跟民間這些有相同的地方能夠能夠借鞋所以我們把它找出來所以我舉例來說假設今天是一個營長他這個退伍了以後如果他的履歷表上面他是寫我是戰車營營長今天你想像一個企業的老闆他看到履歷上面是戰車營長他一定想說我又沒有戰車給你開\n\n21\n00:06:37,694 --> 00:06:51,307\n對不對可是如果你有辦法把他做出他的職能做出這樣子內涵的細分的時候你就會發現一個營長他要管理經營400人的生活演訓任務甚至他還要來管理很多戰車的維修調度\n\n22\n00:06:53,188 --> 00:07:19,811\n這裡面包括了領導力包括運輸管理包括人資其實有非常非常管理的專才在這裡面如果他的履歷可以清楚的協助他把這些事情都呈現上去恐怕其實對一個民間企業的老闆對於他的需求來說恐怕會大大的提升所以我們長期以來沒有協助我們的退伍軍人來推進這樣子的工作或這樣的分析坦白說我覺得這在行政上面是有很大的問題的\n\n23\n00:07:23,004 --> 00:07:42,939\n主委你剛上任我想提醒就了解其實當初之前在李文忠副主委的時候其實他有計畫找了專家的學者來做建立國軍的職能基準表那這個計畫其實是有的那我想問主委我們應該可以在這個計畫的基礎下面再往前推進吧可以\n\n24\n00:07:43,919 --> 00:07:45,200\n對,我們在協調國防部\n\n25\n00:08:06,992 --> 00:08:16,554\n各位委員補充報告我們上個月已經陪同國防部的專案人員我們已經去拜訪教育部勞動部跟那個經濟部這個相關的職能平台他們也都了解所以我們會持續去跟國防部來洽談那可不可以在下個會期前提出相關具體的明確的計畫我們要怎麼來執行這樣的計畫我就給大家一個新的氣象新的計畫新的格局局面吧\n\n26\n00:08:31,977 --> 00:08:32,458\n謝謝主委的承諾,我們很期待,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n583\t1605\t請嚴主委來主委請洪委員好\n9571\t31456\t所以其實我們有很多來就讀中正裕校或者是三軍官校的學子那他過去可能他是因為這個家境貧窮或者是讀軍校包辦生活發花費也包括其實可能會有一些津貼可以來照顧家庭所以其實我們知道有很多這些我們的軍人是從15歲18歲就進入到軍人體系\n36399\t52696\t後來成為榮民領終身奉這是很多軍人生命的軌跡所以我們可以看到軍旅生涯幾乎也就是職業生涯的大半部分退伍就退休\n54278\t71497\t那可是在現在徵募並行的狀況之下這個軍隊其實是需要大量這個服役4年到9年的這個短役期的官兵那請主委看一下一幕退伍會統計的資料最近3年退伍人員的比例服役10年以上的第一類\n72498\t92766\t官兵大概36%那平均年齡接近41歲那服役4到9年的大概有64%平均年齡大概26歲所以不論是第一類或第二類其實就這個表上來看的話軍旅生涯恐怕不會是他們執牙的最終戰甚至可能是他們的第一戰\n94326\t114215\t這只是其中的一個階段所以這時候退輔會的就學跟就業的功能我覺得大家就會非常非常的期待那依照我們看得下現在的現行的法規在這個國軍介退官兵就業輔導措施實施要點裡面目前看起來只有在退伍前的前半年要接受職業訓練主委你覺得這樣夠嗎\n117175\t133428\t時間太短了一點時間太短了一點嘛對不對所以其實我們看到有很多年輕人他不一定是不願意從軍但他們一想到或者從過去前人的例子裡面聽到說離開部隊要找下一份工作幾乎是從零開始\n134309\t134890\t主委 不好意思\n148530\t162423\t那我這下面重點來是我要跟主委討論我們關於軍事跟這個民間專長的轉換其實我們這邊在談的不是什麼新的新聞我們其實看到2022年國防部其實有一個這個軍職專長轉嫌民間職業對照的這個計畫這個計畫最後怎麼了\n175079\t192364\t國防部軍職專長轉弦民間職業對照計畫 最後怎麼了?我們其實從109年就跟國防部在談這件事情但是因為我們尊重國防部他因為有戰訓本務的一個考量還有其他的因素所以他就暫停\n193204\t197170\t但是我們現在已經還持續在溝通對,我們就只講這個計畫後來失敗了\n200410\t204954\t國防部公開表示,軍事專長與民間職業兩者屬性不同,無法順利轉弦及對照。這當然是因為國防部當時是想很簡單的職業別對照,比如飛行員,我就是讓他去找變成是轉飛民航機\n225450\t236288\t那如果你開軍卡的駕照你可以就去開民間的卡車這幾乎是非常非常直覺性的這樣子的對照那問題就來啦那你的野戰部隊你的裝甲兵要對到什麼\n237554\t262559\t沒有能對照啊 對不對所以這是為什麼當時這個計畫其實很難成功的原因可是我現在要講的不是簡單的這個職業別的對照我其實想請主委參考一下其他部會有幾個我覺得值得參照的比方說在勞動部裡面我們看到這個職能基準的一覽表裡面其實它分為幾個層次它其實是把職能的內涵包括它的職能做了更進一步的分析跟探討\n263439\t280301\t洪申翰找了專家學者來分析、拆分每一個職業包括投影片的第一層他分了他的主要職責工作的任務甚至下到第三層是要去把他的知識面、技能面全部都給挖出來跟呈現出來所以以這個物流管理人員來說\n281582\t307333\t他的職能的基礎第一個職責是可能是協調車隊來管控物流第二個是他的工作任務是要執行車隊管控任務那第三個是他下面也把他的知識跟技能給分析出來這不是只有勞動部這樣做包括經濟部也有IPAS包括教育部也有就職平台的U-CAN其實都採用這種細分的科學分析的方法\n308336\t308476\t主席\n325458\t351354\t如果我們把其他部會相關的做法可以值得參考的我們現在都攤在眼前你覺得退輔會有哪些事情可以多做是 謝謝委員給我們指導我覺得這很有參考的價值現在最主要就是剛剛我們碰到的困難剛剛處長講的還有委員所發現的就是這一塊這是盲點那怎麼樣能夠突破參考剛剛林鄭月娥的勞動部經濟部這個教育部他怎麼樣去把它細分一定有一些\n352395\t354456\t主委你覺得你們會怎麼做?\n368524\t395952\t我先想參考一下委員所提供的資料然後回去之後我們依據我們的屬性不同我們的特性不同但是怎麼樣跟民間這些有相同的地方能夠能夠借鞋所以我們把它找出來所以我舉例來說假設今天是一個營長他這個退伍了以後如果他的履歷表上面他是寫我是戰車營營長今天你想像一個企業的老闆他看到履歷上面是戰車營長他一定想說我又沒有戰車給你開\n397694\t411307\t對不對可是如果你有辦法把他做出他的職能做出這樣子內涵的細分的時候你就會發現一個營長他要管理經營400人的生活演訓任務甚至他還要來管理很多戰車的維修調度\n413188\t439811\t這裡面包括了領導力包括運輸管理包括人資其實有非常非常管理的專才在這裡面如果他的履歷可以清楚的協助他把這些事情都呈現上去恐怕其實對一個民間企業的老闆對於他的需求來說恐怕會大大的提升所以我們長期以來沒有協助我們的退伍軍人來推進這樣子的工作或這樣的分析坦白說我覺得這在行政上面是有很大的問題的\n443004\t462939\t主委你剛上任我想提醒就了解其實當初之前在李文忠副主委的時候其實他有計畫找了專家的學者來做建立國軍的職能基準表那這個計畫其實是有的那我想問主委我們應該可以在這個計畫的基礎下面再往前推進吧可以\n463919\t465200\t對,我們在協調國防部\n486992\t496554\t各位委員補充報告我們上個月已經陪同國防部的專案人員我們已經去拜訪教育部勞動部跟那個經濟部這個相關的職能平台他們也都了解所以我們會持續去跟國防部來洽談那可不可以在下個會期前提出相關具體的明確的計畫我們要怎麼來執行這樣的計畫我就給大家一個新的氣象新的計畫新的格局局面吧\n511977\t512458\t謝謝主委的承諾,我們很期待,謝謝\n","txt":"請嚴主委來主委請洪委員好\n所以其實我們有很多來就讀中正裕校或者是三軍官校的學子那他過去可能他是因為這個家境貧窮或者是讀軍校包辦生活發花費也包括其實可能會有一些津貼可以來照顧家庭所以其實我們知道有很多這些我們的軍人是從15歲18歲就進入到軍人體系\n後來成為榮民領終身奉這是很多軍人生命的軌跡所以我們可以看到軍旅生涯幾乎也就是職業生涯的大半部分退伍就退休\n那可是在現在徵募並行的狀況之下這個軍隊其實是需要大量這個服役4年到9年的這個短役期的官兵那請主委看一下一幕退伍會統計的資料最近3年退伍人員的比例服役10年以上的第一類\n官兵大概36%那平均年齡接近41歲那服役4到9年的大概有64%平均年齡大概26歲所以不論是第一類或第二類其實就這個表上來看的話軍旅生涯恐怕不會是他們執牙的最終戰甚至可能是他們的第一戰\n這只是其中的一個階段所以這時候退輔會的就學跟就業的功能我覺得大家就會非常非常的期待那依照我們看得下現在的現行的法規在這個國軍介退官兵就業輔導措施實施要點裡面目前看起來只有在退伍前的前半年要接受職業訓練主委你覺得這樣夠嗎\n時間太短了一點時間太短了一點嘛對不對所以其實我們看到有很多年輕人他不一定是不願意從軍但他們一想到或者從過去前人的例子裡面聽到說離開部隊要找下一份工作幾乎是從零開始\n主委 不好意思\n那我這下面重點來是我要跟主委討論我們關於軍事跟這個民間專長的轉換其實我們這邊在談的不是什麼新的新聞我們其實看到2022年國防部其實有一個這個軍職專長轉嫌民間職業對照的這個計畫這個計畫最後怎麼了\n國防部軍職專長轉弦民間職業對照計畫 最後怎麼了?我們其實從109年就跟國防部在談這件事情但是因為我們尊重國防部他因為有戰訓本務的一個考量還有其他的因素所以他就暫停\n但是我們現在已經還持續在溝通對,我們就只講這個計畫後來失敗了\n國防部公開表示,軍事專長與民間職業兩者屬性不同,無法順利轉弦及對照。這當然是因為國防部當時是想很簡單的職業別對照,比如飛行員,我就是讓他去找變成是轉飛民航機\n那如果你開軍卡的駕照你可以就去開民間的卡車這幾乎是非常非常直覺性的這樣子的對照那問題就來啦那你的野戰部隊你的裝甲兵要對到什麼\n沒有能對照啊 對不對所以這是為什麼當時這個計畫其實很難成功的原因可是我現在要講的不是簡單的這個職業別的對照我其實想請主委參考一下其他部會有幾個我覺得值得參照的比方說在勞動部裡面我們看到這個職能基準的一覽表裡面其實它分為幾個層次它其實是把職能的內涵包括它的職能做了更進一步的分析跟探討\n洪申翰找了專家學者來分析、拆分每一個職業包括投影片的第一層他分了他的主要職責工作的任務甚至下到第三層是要去把他的知識面、技能面全部都給挖出來跟呈現出來所以以這個物流管理人員來說\n他的職能的基礎第一個職責是可能是協調車隊來管控物流第二個是他的工作任務是要執行車隊管控任務那第三個是他下面也把他的知識跟技能給分析出來這不是只有勞動部這樣做包括經濟部也有IPAS包括教育部也有就職平台的U-CAN其實都採用這種細分的科學分析的方法\n主席\n如果我們把其他部會相關的做法可以值得參考的我們現在都攤在眼前你覺得退輔會有哪些事情可以多做是 謝謝委員給我們指導我覺得這很有參考的價值現在最主要就是剛剛我們碰到的困難剛剛處長講的還有委員所發現的就是這一塊這是盲點那怎麼樣能夠突破參考剛剛林鄭月娥的勞動部經濟部這個教育部他怎麼樣去把它細分一定有一些\n主委你覺得你們會怎麼做?\n我先想參考一下委員所提供的資料然後回去之後我們依據我們的屬性不同我們的特性不同但是怎麼樣跟民間這些有相同的地方能夠能夠借鞋所以我們把它找出來所以我舉例來說假設今天是一個營長他這個退伍了以後如果他的履歷表上面他是寫我是戰車營營長今天你想像一個企業的老闆他看到履歷上面是戰車營長他一定想說我又沒有戰車給你開\n對不對可是如果你有辦法把他做出他的職能做出這樣子內涵的細分的時候你就會發現一個營長他要管理經營400人的生活演訓任務甚至他還要來管理很多戰車的維修調度\n這裡面包括了領導力包括運輸管理包括人資其實有非常非常管理的專才在這裡面如果他的履歷可以清楚的協助他把這些事情都呈現上去恐怕其實對一個民間企業的老闆對於他的需求來說恐怕會大大的提升所以我們長期以來沒有協助我們的退伍軍人來推進這樣子的工作或這樣的分析坦白說我覺得這在行政上面是有很大的問題的\n主委你剛上任我想提醒就了解其實當初之前在李文忠副主委的時候其實他有計畫找了專家的學者來做建立國軍的職能基準表那這個計畫其實是有的那我想問主委我們應該可以在這個計畫的基礎下面再往前推進吧可以\n對,我們在協調國防部\n各位委員補充報告我們上個月已經陪同國防部的專案人員我們已經去拜訪教育部勞動部跟那個經濟部這個相關的職能平台他們也都了解所以我們會持續去跟國防部來洽談那可不可以在下個會期前提出相關具體的明確的計畫我們要怎麼來執行這樣的計畫我就給大家一個新的氣象新的計畫新的格局局面吧\n謝謝主委的承諾,我們很期待,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.583 --> 00:01.605\n請嚴主委來主委請洪委員好\n\n00:09.571 --> 00:31.456\n所以其實我們有很多來就讀中正裕校或者是三軍官校的學子那他過去可能他是因為這個家境貧窮或者是讀軍校包辦生活發花費也包括其實可能會有一些津貼可以來照顧家庭所以其實我們知道有很多這些我們的軍人是從15歲18歲就進入到軍人體系\n\n00:36.399 --> 00:52.696\n後來成為榮民領終身奉這是很多軍人生命的軌跡所以我們可以看到軍旅生涯幾乎也就是職業生涯的大半部分退伍就退休\n\n00:54.278 --> 01:11.497\n那可是在現在徵募並行的狀況之下這個軍隊其實是需要大量這個服役4年到9年的這個短役期的官兵那請主委看一下一幕退伍會統計的資料最近3年退伍人員的比例服役10年以上的第一類\n\n01:12.498 --> 01:32.766\n官兵大概36%那平均年齡接近41歲那服役4到9年的大概有64%平均年齡大概26歲所以不論是第一類或第二類其實就這個表上來看的話軍旅生涯恐怕不會是他們執牙的最終戰甚至可能是他們的第一戰\n\n01:34.326 --> 01:54.215\n這只是其中的一個階段所以這時候退輔會的就學跟就業的功能我覺得大家就會非常非常的期待那依照我們看得下現在的現行的法規在這個國軍介退官兵就業輔導措施實施要點裡面目前看起來只有在退伍前的前半年要接受職業訓練主委你覺得這樣夠嗎\n\n01:57.175 --> 02:13.428\n時間太短了一點時間太短了一點嘛對不對所以其實我們看到有很多年輕人他不一定是不願意從軍但他們一想到或者從過去前人的例子裡面聽到說離開部隊要找下一份工作幾乎是從零開始\n\n02:14.309 --> 02:14.890\n主委不好意思\n\n02:28.530 --> 02:42.423\n那我這下面重點來是我要跟主委討論我們關於軍事跟這個民間專長的轉換其實我們這邊在談的不是什麼新的新聞我們其實看到2022年國防部其實有一個這個軍職專長轉嫌民間職業對照的這個計畫這個計畫最後怎麼了\n\n02:55.079 --> 03:12.364\n國防部軍職專長轉弦民間職業對照計畫最後怎麼了?我們其實從109年就跟國防部在談這件事情但是因為我們尊重國防部他因為有戰訓本務的一個考量還有其他的因素所以他就暫停\n\n03:13.204 --> 03:17.170\n但是我們現在已經還持續在溝通對,我們就只講這個計畫後來失敗了\n\n03:20.410 --> 03:24.954\n國防部公開表示,軍事專長與民間職業兩者屬性不同,無法順利轉弦及對照。這當然是因為國防部當時是想很簡單的職業別對照,比如飛行員,我就是讓他去找變成是轉飛民航機\n\n03:45.450 --> 03:56.288\n那如果你開軍卡的駕照你可以就去開民間的卡車這幾乎是非常非常直覺性的這樣子的對照那問題就來啦那你的野戰部隊你的裝甲兵要對到什麼\n\n03:57.554 --> 04:22.559\n沒有能對照啊對不對所以這是為什麼當時這個計畫其實很難成功的原因可是我現在要講的不是簡單的這個職業別的對照我其實想請主委參考一下其他部會有幾個我覺得值得參照的比方說在勞動部裡面我們看到這個職能基準的一覽表裡面其實它分為幾個層次它其實是把職能的內涵包括它的職能做了更進一步的分析跟探討\n\n04:23.439 --> 04:40.301\n洪申翰找了專家學者來分析、拆分每一個職業包括投影片的第一層他分了他的主要職責工作的任務甚至下到第三層是要去把他的知識面、技能面全部都給挖出來跟呈現出來所以以這個物流管理人員來說\n\n04:41.582 --> 05:07.333\n他的職能的基礎第一個職責是可能是協調車隊來管控物流第二個是他的工作任務是要執行車隊管控任務那第三個是他下面也把他的知識跟技能給分析出來這不是只有勞動部這樣做包括經濟部也有IPAS包括教育部也有就職平台的U-CAN其實都採用這種細分的科學分析的方法\n\n05:08.336 --> 05:08.476\n主席\n\n05:25.458 --> 05:51.354\n如果我們把其他部會相關的做法可以值得參考的我們現在都攤在眼前你覺得退輔會有哪些事情可以多做是謝謝委員給我們指導我覺得這很有參考的價值現在最主要就是剛剛我們碰到的困難剛剛處長講的還有委員所發現的就是這一塊這是盲點那怎麼樣能夠突破參考剛剛林鄭月娥的勞動部經濟部這個教育部他怎麼樣去把它細分一定有一些\n\n05:52.395 --> 05:54.456\n主委你覺得你們會怎麼做?\n\n06:08.524 --> 06:35.952\n我先想參考一下委員所提供的資料然後回去之後我們依據我們的屬性不同我們的特性不同但是怎麼樣跟民間這些有相同的地方能夠能夠借鞋所以我們把它找出來所以我舉例來說假設今天是一個營長他這個退伍了以後如果他的履歷表上面他是寫我是戰車營營長今天你想像一個企業的老闆他看到履歷上面是戰車營長他一定想說我又沒有戰車給你開\n\n06:37.694 --> 06:51.307\n對不對可是如果你有辦法把他做出他的職能做出這樣子內涵的細分的時候你就會發現一個營長他要管理經營400人的生活演訓任務甚至他還要來管理很多戰車的維修調度\n\n06:53.188 --> 07:19.811\n這裡面包括了領導力包括運輸管理包括人資其實有非常非常管理的專才在這裡面如果他的履歷可以清楚的協助他把這些事情都呈現上去恐怕其實對一個民間企業的老闆對於他的需求來說恐怕會大大的提升所以我們長期以來沒有協助我們的退伍軍人來推進這樣子的工作或這樣的分析坦白說我覺得這在行政上面是有很大的問題的\n\n07:23.004 --> 07:42.939\n主委你剛上任我想提醒就了解其實當初之前在李文忠副主委的時候其實他有計畫找了專家的學者來做建立國軍的職能基準表那這個計畫其實是有的那我想問主委我們應該可以在這個計畫的基礎下面再往前推進吧可以\n\n07:43.919 --> 07:45.200\n對,我們在協調國防部\n\n08:06.992 --> 08:16.554\n各位委員補充報告我們上個月已經陪同國防部的專案人員我們已經去拜訪教育部勞動部跟那個經濟部這個相關的職能平台他們也都了解所以我們會持續去跟國防部來洽談那可不可以在下個會期前提出相關具體的明確的計畫我們要怎麼來執行這樣的計畫我就給大家一個新的氣象新的計畫新的格局局面吧\n\n08:31.977 --> 08:32.458\n謝謝主委的承諾,我們很期待,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.583,"end":1.605,"text":"請嚴主委來主委請洪委員好"},{"start":9.571,"end":31.456,"text":"所以其實我們有很多來就讀中正裕校或者是三軍官校的學子那他過去可能他是因為這個家境貧窮或者是讀軍校包辦生活發花費也包括其實可能會有一些津貼可以來照顧家庭所以其實我們知道有很多這些我們的軍人是從15歲18歲就進入到軍人體系"},{"start":36.399,"end":52.696,"text":"後來成為榮民領終身奉這是很多軍人生命的軌跡所以我們可以看到軍旅生涯幾乎也就是職業生涯的大半部分退伍就退休"},{"start":54.278,"end":71.497,"text":"那可是在現在徵募並行的狀況之下這個軍隊其實是需要大量這個服役4年到9年的這個短役期的官兵那請主委看一下一幕退伍會統計的資料最近3年退伍人員的比例服役10年以上的第一類"},{"start":72.498,"end":92.766,"text":"官兵大概36%那平均年齡接近41歲那服役4到9年的大概有64%平均年齡大概26歲所以不論是第一類或第二類其實就這個表上來看的話軍旅生涯恐怕不會是他們執牙的最終戰甚至可能是他們的第一戰"},{"start":94.326,"end":114.215,"text":"這只是其中的一個階段所以這時候退輔會的就學跟就業的功能我覺得大家就會非常非常的期待那依照我們看得下現在的現行的法規在這個國軍介退官兵就業輔導措施實施要點裡面目前看起來只有在退伍前的前半年要接受職業訓練主委你覺得這樣夠嗎"},{"start":117.175,"end":133.428,"text":"時間太短了一點時間太短了一點嘛對不對所以其實我們看到有很多年輕人他不一定是不願意從軍但他們一想到或者從過去前人的例子裡面聽到說離開部隊要找下一份工作幾乎是從零開始"},{"start":134.309,"end":134.89,"text":"主委 不好意思"},{"start":148.53,"end":162.423,"text":"那我這下面重點來是我要跟主委討論我們關於軍事跟這個民間專長的轉換其實我們這邊在談的不是什麼新的新聞我們其實看到2022年國防部其實有一個這個軍職專長轉嫌民間職業對照的這個計畫這個計畫最後怎麼了"},{"start":175.079,"end":192.364,"text":"國防部軍職專長轉弦民間職業對照計畫 最後怎麼了?我們其實從109年就跟國防部在談這件事情但是因為我們尊重國防部他因為有戰訓本務的一個考量還有其他的因素所以他就暫停"},{"start":193.204,"end":197.17,"text":"但是我們現在已經還持續在溝通對,我們就只講這個計畫後來失敗了"},{"start":200.41,"end":204.954,"text":"國防部公開表示,軍事專長與民間職業兩者屬性不同,無法順利轉弦及對照。這當然是因為國防部當時是想很簡單的職業別對照,比如飛行員,我就是讓他去找變成是轉飛民航機"},{"start":225.45,"end":236.288,"text":"那如果你開軍卡的駕照你可以就去開民間的卡車這幾乎是非常非常直覺性的這樣子的對照那問題就來啦那你的野戰部隊你的裝甲兵要對到什麼"},{"start":237.554,"end":262.559,"text":"沒有能對照啊 對不對所以這是為什麼當時這個計畫其實很難成功的原因可是我現在要講的不是簡單的這個職業別的對照我其實想請主委參考一下其他部會有幾個我覺得值得參照的比方說在勞動部裡面我們看到這個職能基準的一覽表裡面其實它分為幾個層次它其實是把職能的內涵包括它的職能做了更進一步的分析跟探討"},{"start":263.439,"end":280.301,"text":"洪申翰找了專家學者來分析、拆分每一個職業包括投影片的第一層他分了他的主要職責工作的任務甚至下到第三層是要去把他的知識面、技能面全部都給挖出來跟呈現出來所以以這個物流管理人員來說"},{"start":281.582,"end":307.333,"text":"他的職能的基礎第一個職責是可能是協調車隊來管控物流第二個是他的工作任務是要執行車隊管控任務那第三個是他下面也把他的知識跟技能給分析出來這不是只有勞動部這樣做包括經濟部也有IPAS包括教育部也有就職平台的U-CAN其實都採用這種細分的科學分析的方法"},{"start":308.336,"end":308.476,"text":"主席"},{"start":325.458,"end":351.354,"text":"如果我們把其他部會相關的做法可以值得參考的我們現在都攤在眼前你覺得退輔會有哪些事情可以多做是 謝謝委員給我們指導我覺得這很有參考的價值現在最主要就是剛剛我們碰到的困難剛剛處長講的還有委員所發現的就是這一塊這是盲點那怎麼樣能夠突破參考剛剛林鄭月娥的勞動部經濟部這個教育部他怎麼樣去把它細分一定有一些"},{"start":352.395,"end":354.456,"text":"主委你覺得你們會怎麼做?"},{"start":368.524,"end":395.952,"text":"我先想參考一下委員所提供的資料然後回去之後我們依據我們的屬性不同我們的特性不同但是怎麼樣跟民間這些有相同的地方能夠能夠借鞋所以我們把它找出來所以我舉例來說假設今天是一個營長他這個退伍了以後如果他的履歷表上面他是寫我是戰車營營長今天你想像一個企業的老闆他看到履歷上面是戰車營長他一定想說我又沒有戰車給你開"},{"start":397.694,"end":411.307,"text":"對不對可是如果你有辦法把他做出他的職能做出這樣子內涵的細分的時候你就會發現一個營長他要管理經營400人的生活演訓任務甚至他還要來管理很多戰車的維修調度"},{"start":413.188,"end":439.811,"text":"這裡面包括了領導力包括運輸管理包括人資其實有非常非常管理的專才在這裡面如果他的履歷可以清楚的協助他把這些事情都呈現上去恐怕其實對一個民間企業的老闆對於他的需求來說恐怕會大大的提升所以我們長期以來沒有協助我們的退伍軍人來推進這樣子的工作或這樣的分析坦白說我覺得這在行政上面是有很大的問題的"},{"start":443.004,"end":462.939,"text":"主委你剛上任我想提醒就了解其實當初之前在李文忠副主委的時候其實他有計畫找了專家的學者來做建立國軍的職能基準表那這個計畫其實是有的那我想問主委我們應該可以在這個計畫的基礎下面再往前推進吧可以"},{"start":463.919,"end":465.2,"text":"對,我們在協調國防部"},{"start":486.992,"end":496.554,"text":"各位委員補充報告我們上個月已經陪同國防部的專案人員我們已經去拜訪教育部勞動部跟那個經濟部這個相關的職能平台他們也都了解所以我們會持續去跟國防部來洽談那可不可以在下個會期前提出相關具體的明確的計畫我們要怎麼來執行這樣的計畫我就給大家一個新的氣象新的計畫新的格局局面吧"},{"start":511.977,"end":512.458,"text":"謝謝主委的承諾,我們很期待,謝謝"}]}}}}