{"id":153585,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153585","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9824cded5adaef77cb05d12856443da96911da973c502cee628317b6e95026e3165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:52:43 - 11:04:26","影片長度":"00:11:43","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧(AI)推動現況與未來方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:52:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:04:26+08:00","duration":703,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":606,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時52分）謝謝主席。有請主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好。剛剛有委員問到有關於兒童教育在AI這一段，我就此延伸來提醒一下。2016年世界經濟論壇已經提出報告提醒大家：面對AI，孩子需要具備的能力是什麼？如何在AI世代成為世界上極具有競爭力的人才？其實是透過遊戲！因為在遊戲之中有充分的創造力練習，這是現在AI所沒有辦法取代的。所以我們雖然要關注兒童的教育面，但我希望我們要非常謹慎，不要投入太多的AI課程，反而剝奪了兒童遊戲的時間，如此將無法在AI世代存活下來，這是從2016年開始世界經濟論壇所給予的一個很大的提醒。","接下來我就進入今天的重點。這幾天大家應該都非常瞭解，黃仁勳在演講中一直不停強調：臺灣是無名英雄，是世界的支柱，這感染了、也鼓舞了所有的臺灣人。同時，接下來有一系列，不管是AMD或超微都宣布要投資臺灣，一瞬間，臺灣變成了世界中心！臺北市電腦公會理事長提到有三個重點需要面對：第一個就是算力；第二個是電力；第三個是人力。上次我在質詢經濟部時有提到，我們有沒有把AI需要的電力算進去？由於現在大家大幅加碼投資，剛剛也有委員提到一堆算力中心要進來了，所以我想請教主委，因為算力非常需要電力，我們之前在做估算時，有沒有把這些電力的規劃都放進去呢？有沒有協助經濟部來做這些規劃呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有。報告委員，我們跟經濟部一直密切在溝通，在經濟部所提出來的規劃裡，其實未來幾年，我們依照現在AI的需求以及半導體製造的需求，有關電力的需求是一直在成長的。在成長過程當中，我們會盡力去開發綠電。以目前規劃當中的綠電來說，希望將來短期內，現在所預計要增建的這些算力、超級電腦，能夠符合現在經濟部的規劃，所以目前經濟部的報告是沒有問題，電力是充足的。"],["張委員雅琳：因為AI的進步成長迅速，雖說好像我們算力增加，效能增加，電力也沒用到這麼多，但我覺得我們還是要時時去保持，並計算出相對的電力需求，確保我們的產業還有AI算力中心都可以持續、好好的運作。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，我們在112年有提出晶片驅動臺灣創新產業的方案，也投入了三千多億來挹注生成式AI的關鍵技術，也說要調查百工百業對AI的需求，並以機械業為示範案例，建立資料共享機制。我想要瞭解，目前針對百工百業雖然從112年開始，但接下來的規劃、目前的進度是什麼？有沒有詳細的推廣……大概要什麼時候、要推廣到多少產業？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我在上個月接任時有跟媒體宣布過，我們在三個月內要規劃出方案來。"],["張委員雅琳：三個月內，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：三個月內……"],["張委員雅琳：之後規劃出方案時，可不可以提供給我們？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然，一定也會在這邊跟委員報告。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來我想要再提醒，不知道主委有沒有看過這一份報告？也就是去年一個有關AI產業化大調查的報告？不知道主委看過這份報告嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這份報告我個人沒有看過。"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，我希望之後主委可以看一下。我剛剛講到百工百業，這裡其實就講到他們去調查了四種不同的產業：製造業、專業服務業、ICP產業等等，裡面有講到他們去瞭解到底有多少企業導入了AI。目前看起來雖然有過半數好像已經導入，但也有近半數完全沒有導入。所以就變成我們要如何協助大家做使用將會是一個很重要的重點，尤其臺灣有非常多的中小企業。你可以看一下這張圖，臺灣製造業的AI化指數差異很大，可能在資訊流通業、ICT產業很高，圖表的黑色虛點線是平均值；但製造業、政府機關以及零售、貿易服務業都低於平均，所以這一塊非常需要主委的協助！我自己也看了一些報導，都說製造業可以導入AI模型來輔助增進產線的生產效率，提升良率、預防性維修，這些都是好處。不過人工智慧學校校長孔祥重院士提到，現在政府的資料其實是有問題的！我們的原始資料不明，是什麼樣的資料、何時蒐集、是否經過整理等這些都不清楚。其次，也不知道資料到底放在哪裡！伺服器經常壞掉，許多實驗產出數據、寫完兩篇論文之後，資料就不知道在哪裡了！第三，授權規格不明還有是否定期維護，所以就變成政府說有資料，但都沒有整理成AI模型可以使用的，所以都不算真的資料。如果以這個標準來看，可用的資料其實非常少，就會很難做出AI模型。因此他有三個建議，也就是我們是不是可以把這個資料整理清楚，建立產業模型來養技職人才；如果是通用資料，就用通用模型給一般人，專業領域如製造業、醫療業，就做出專業模型給產業用，所以我上次才一直提到半導體產業。我想要瞭解的是，之前主委有講資料是很重要的，那我們現在提供的、可用的資料規劃進度又是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我可以請數位部來回答嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：可以。"],["葉次長寧：跟委員報告，本部有關資料治理的部分是由多元創新司負責。委員剛剛說的非常正確，目前政府的資料狀況是還在比較初階的階段，所以我們會爭取公共建設計畫來做所謂的資料圖譜（Data Fabric），讓各個政府資料的整個圖像變得比較清楚。這樣相對來講，不管是要進行資料串接、應用服務也好，或是AI訓練也好，都能夠有一個比較標準的規格。也同時知道這樣的資料大概會在什麼地方可以找得到，這是我們正在努力的方向。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，這個公建計畫大概是什麼時候會確認有這筆預算，因為這個非常影響我們的百工百業到底有沒有東西可以用。"],["葉次長寧：是的，我們現在在爭取114年的計畫。"],["張委員雅琳：114年？那我們相對的一些詳細的規劃現在是有了對不對？"],["葉次長寧：我們現在在進行規劃中。"],["張委員雅琳：那進行規劃之後是不是也可以提供給我？我們可以做一些討論，好不好？"],["葉次長寧：可以，沒有問題。"],["張委員雅琳：再來就是，因為我的時間有一點不太夠，我要講一個重點，其實今天委員也都有提到，到底我們要不要持續對TAIDE做投資。我自己來看，圖靈獎得主主導Meta AI研究的科學家Yann LeCun就有講，不要研究大型語言模型，上次其實我也有跟主委講，我們應該要專精於本土的語言模型，這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方。","我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告，我也發現資訊業、製造業他們有導入的那些企業所使用的就是ChatGPT、Midjourney這種東西，所以其實是跟TAIDE有相關，我們是有競爭優勢的。但是有一個提醒，金融時報在5月22號報導中國近期透過一些官方訓練他們自己的ChatGPT，叫做「Chat Xi PT」。這是金融時報說的，因為它主要的訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫，習思想是由14條原則來組成的，包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權，加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀，所以它今天產出的內容其實會造成很大偏頗的問題、有不中立的問題。","剛剛好今天國語日報也講到了這一點，所以這一點我想請主委或者是誰可以來回答我，當世界都在發展AI的時候，我們今天在做本土語言模型的時候，要如何確保我們的資料不是偏頗的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：非常同意委員的觀點，其實大型語言模型不是萬靈丹，它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法，是一種統計性的方式，需要大量的資料，非常大的模型、耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案，但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確，也不是所有的應用都適合。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在泛講AI，AI有很多種方式，所以我們要混合其他的方式，不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，我同意。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以委員的觀點非常好，我們要兼顧能源的有效使用，人才的有效使用、模型的優化、資料的準確度，將來在各行各業的應用，我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的發展，很同意委員的觀點。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但我想要知道，因為剛剛其實有講了，我也非常認同，就是我們應該要做出一些差異化，而且是真正適合臺灣產業使用的。當然就是說，我先延伸一下這一點，我們應該要跟企業合作，開發更多的應用情境來協助企業使用這個生成式AI。但是也是要坦白說，也要有一定開發能力的企業才有辦法自己開發出來，所以是不是也……因為目前TAIDE還是一整包資料，未來也希望是不是可以開放出來，這是可以來討論的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：但是回到「偏頗」的問題，我們要如何確保現在所訓練的資料沒有偏頗性的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分現在是可以再做一下說明嗎？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：跟委員報告一下，我們所謂的TAIDE，因為trustworthy確定資料不偏頗是我們的一個滿重要的任務。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：未來數位部的評測中心其實也會做這方面的檢測，所以這是我們很注意的一個重點，在發展TAIDE的時候。"],["張委員雅琳：所以這個檢測性的頻率是多久呢？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：資料進來的時候要經過評測中心檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗。"],["張委員雅琳：所以這跟114年的公建計畫也非常有關係，對不對？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：是。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，主委請回。","我們接下來請AI博士葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葛如鈞","柯志恩","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","范雲","翁曉玲","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","吳春城","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","牛煦庭"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧 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{\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 693.412, \"end\": 693.492, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 693.492, \"end\": 693.512, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 693.512, \"end\": 693.572, \"score\": 0.422}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 693.572, \"end\": 693.652, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 693.652, \"end\": 693.732, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"係\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 693.732, \"end\": 693.832, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 693.832, \"end\": 693.892, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 693.892, \"end\": 693.992, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 693.992, \"end\": 694.053, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 694.053, \"end\": 694.073, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 694.073, \"end\": 694.093, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 702.948, \"end\": 702.968, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,269 --> 00:00:10,342\n張雅琳委員謝謝主席我們有請主委有請吳主委委員好\n\n2\n00:00:16,154 --> 00:00:38,902\n主委好,因為剛剛有委員問到就是有關於兒童教育在AI這一段那我就想我就先延伸來提醒一下就其實在2016年世界經濟論壇就一路出報告來提醒大家面對AI孩子需要具備的能力是什麼在AI世代如何還是成為世界上極具有競爭力的人才其實是透過遊戲\n\n3\n00:00:40,682 --> 00:01:05,981\n因為遊戲之中其實有充分的創造力的練習這個是AI現在沒有辦法取代的所以我希望就是說我們雖然要關注兒童的教育面的話我們可能還是要非常的謹慎不要就是投入太多的AI的課程反而剝奪了兒童遊戲的時間那反而是讓我們沒有辦法在AI時代可以存活下來這個是從2016年開始世界經濟論壇就一個很大的提醒\n\n4\n00:01:07,543 --> 00:01:09,786\n臺灣是無名英雄是世界的支柱那感染也鼓舞了所有的臺灣人\n\n5\n00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:52,225\n同時接下來有一系列不管是AMD或是超微他們都宣布要投資台灣一瞬間台灣變成了世界的中心台北市電腦工會理事長有提到有三個重點需要面對第一個就是算力第二個是電力第三個是人力上次我在諮詢經濟部的時候有提到說我們有沒有把AI需要的電力來把它算進去\n\n6\n00:01:53,025 --> 00:02:09,258\n因為現在大家都大幅的加碼投資剛剛也是一堆算力中心要進來了那我想跟主委請教就是說因為算力就是非常需要電力那我們之前在做這些估算的時候有沒有把這些電力的規劃都放進去呢?\n\n7\n00:02:10,945 --> 00:02:32,892\n有沒有協助經濟部來做這些規劃呢?有,抱歉。報告委員,我們跟經濟部是一直密切在溝通。在經濟部提出來的這個規劃裡面,其實未來幾年,我們依照現在AI的需求以及半導體製造的需求,這個電力是一直,需求是一直在成長。\n\n8\n00:02:33,993 --> 00:02:39,464\n在成長的過程當中我們會盡力去開發我們的綠電這個綠電目前規劃當中是希望將來短期內\n\n9\n00:02:45,117 --> 00:03:14,363\n我們現在預計要增建這些算力這個超級電腦能夠符合現在經濟部的規劃所以目前經濟部的報告是沒有問題好那這部分因為其實因為這個AI的進步是成長迅速啦所以而且雖然說好像我們算力大幅的增加我們效能增加電力也沒用到這麼多但是我覺得這邊我們還是要實時的去保持我們要去計算出相對的一些電力需求讓我們確保我們的這些產業還有AI算力中心都可以持續的有好好的運作\n\n10\n00:03:15,243 --> 00:03:39,304\n謝謝委員那再來就是說因為其實我們在112年有提供提出一個晶片驅動臺灣創新產業的一個方案也投入了3000多億要來挹注這個生成式AI的關鍵技術那也有說我們要跟百工百業來去調查他們的AI需求然後並且已經以機械業為示範的案例建立了資料共享機制那我想要了解在這一段\n\n11\n00:03:39,884 --> 00:04:02,952\n我們目前針對百工百業雖然是112年開始那我們接下來的一個規劃目前的進度是什麼有沒有詳細的一個推廣我們大概要到什麼時候推廣到多少的產業這樣子我在上個月接任的時候有跟媒體宣布過我們在三個月內要規劃出一個方案出來三個月內是嗎三個月內那之後可以規劃出方案的時候可不可以也提供給我們\n\n12\n00:04:04,509 --> 00:04:16,064\n當然一定也會在這邊報告跟委員報告那接下來我想要再提醒我不知道主委有沒有看過這一份就是AI產業化去年一個新的大調查的報告不知道主委看過這份報告嗎\n\n13\n00:04:18,853 --> 00:04:46,465\n這份報告我個人沒有看過好喔沒關係那我之後也希望說主委可能也可以看一下因為他提我們剛剛講百工百業他其實就講到了他們去調查了四種不同的產業這樣子製造業啦然後還有專業服務業啊然後還有ICP產業等等的那他就講到去了解說到底有多少企業導入了AI那這樣看起來雖然有近半數好像有導入但是也有近半數過半數已經導入但是也有近半數完全沒有\n\n14\n00:05:09,713 --> 00:05:17,741\n但是我們的製造業政府機關以及零售貿易服務業都是低於平均的所以這一塊非常需要主委的協助\n\n15\n00:05:19,353 --> 00:05:48,653\n我自己看了一些報導他們說製造業是可以導入AI模型來輔助增進產線的生產效率提升良率、預防性維修所以這些都是好處但是我也看到了這個人工智慧學校的校長孔祥忠院士他提到說我們現在的政府資料其實是有問題的我們的原始資料不明是什麼樣的資料何時收集是否經過整理都不清楚第二個也不知道資料到底放在哪裡伺服器經常壞許多實驗產出數據寫了兩篇論文之後資料就不知道在哪裡了\n\n16\n00:05:49,433 --> 00:06:07,991\n第三個授權的規格不明是否定期維護所以就變成說政府都說有資料但是沒有整理成AI模型可以使用的都不算真的資料所以如果以這個標準來看可用的資料其實非常少那就會很難做出AI模型那\n\n17\n00:06:09,176 --> 00:06:21,526\n說他有三個建議就是說我們是不是可以把這個資料整理清楚建立產業模型來養技職人才那是不是可以在像是如果是通用的通用資料就用通用模型給一般人專業領域喔如製造業醫療業\n\n18\n00:06:24,608 --> 00:06:24,948\n請數位部回答\n\n19\n00:06:44,552 --> 00:07:12,883\n跟委員報告本部的資料治理的部分是由我們多元創新司來負責那委員剛剛指出的非常正確就是目前政府資料的狀況是屬於一個還在比較初階的階段那我們會爭取一個公共建設計畫做所謂的資料圖譜讓各個政府的資料它的整個圖像變得比較清楚那相對來講不管是要進行資料創接應用服務也好\n\n20\n00:07:13,243 --> 00:07:13,703\n主任委員吳誠文．\n\n21\n00:07:39,098 --> 00:07:39,999\n今天委員也有提到\n\n22\n00:07:54,717 --> 00:08:15,858\n到底我們要不要持續的去對台德做投資?那我自己看這個圖靈獎得主主導MetaAI研究的科學家楊立坤他就有講不要研究大型語言模型這上次我有跟主委講我們應該要來專精於本土語言模型這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方那我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告我也發現資訊業\n\n23\n00:08:19,701 --> 00:08:33,155\n資料製造業他們有導入的那些企業他們使用的就是checkGPT、MeJourney這種東西所以其實是跟我們的這個台德是有相關我們是有競爭優勢的啦但是有一個提醒\n\n24\n00:08:37,699 --> 00:08:56,358\n金融時報在5月22日報導了中國近期透過的一些官方訓練他們自己的CHATGPT叫做CHATCPT這是金融時報說的因為它主要訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫\n\n25\n00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:18,126\n習思想是由14條原則來組成的包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀所以他今天闡述的內容其實是會造成一些很大的偏頗的問題有不中立的問題那剛剛好今天國有日報他也講到了這一點\n\n26\n00:09:19,853 --> 00:09:30,486\n所以這一點我想請主委或是誰可以來回答我就說當世界都在發展AI的時候我們今天是我們的本土語言模型的時候我們要如何來確保我們的資料不是偏頗的\n\n27\n00:09:32,202 --> 00:09:59,071\n我非常同意委員的觀點其實大型元模型不是萬靈丹它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法它是一種統計性的方式需要大量的資料、非常大的模型用耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確它其實不是所有的應用都適合\n\n28\n00:09:59,811 --> 00:10:24,511\n我們現在範講AI,AI有很多種方式所以我們要混合其他的方式不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型所以委員的觀點非常好所以我們要兼顧說能源的有效使用人才的有效使用模型的優化資料的準確度將來在各行各業的應用我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的這個發展很同意委員的觀點\n\n29\n00:10:25,331 --> 00:10:42,278\n對,但是我想要知道就是說剛剛其實有講嘛就是說我也非常認同啦就是說我們應該要做出一些差異化而且是真正適合台灣的產業使用的那當然就是說延伸這一點我先延伸一下就是說我們應該要來跟企業來合作開發更多的應用情境來協助企業來使用這個深層式AI這樣子那但是齁\n\n30\n00:10:48,380 --> 00:10:49,020\n您可以再做一些說明嗎?\n\n31\n00:11:12,526 --> 00:11:34,093\n我想跟委員報告一下我們所謂的這個TIDE因為Trustworthy缺的資料不偏頗是我們一個蠻重要的任務那未來這個在數位部的評測中心其實他們也會做這方面的檢測所以這是我們很注意的一個重點在發表TIDE的時候這檢測性是頻率是多久呢我們資料對就資料進來的時候要經過評測中心來檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗這樣子好所以這個那個114年的公建計畫應該也非常有關係對不對會是好了解謝謝喔\n\n32\n00:11:42,948 --> 00:11:42,968\n謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t10342\t張雅琳委員謝謝主席 我們有請主委有請吳主委委員好\n16154\t38902\t主委好,因為剛剛有委員問到就是有關於兒童教育在AI這一段那我就想我就先延伸來提醒一下就其實在2016年世界經濟論壇就一路出報告來提醒大家面對AI孩子需要具備的能力是什麼在AI世代如何還是成為世界上極具有競爭力的人才其實是透過遊戲\n40682\t65981\t因為遊戲之中其實有充分的創造力的練習這個是AI現在沒有辦法取代的所以我希望就是說我們雖然要關注兒童的教育面的話我們可能還是要非常的謹慎不要就是投入太多的AI的課程反而剝奪了兒童遊戲的時間那反而是讓我們沒有辦法在AI時代可以存活下來這個是從2016年開始世界經濟論壇就一個很大的提醒\n67543\t69786\t臺灣是無名英雄是世界的支柱那感染也鼓舞了所有的臺灣人\n83519\t112225\t同時接下來有一系列不管是AMD或是超微他們都宣布要投資台灣一瞬間台灣變成了世界的中心台北市電腦工會理事長有提到有三個重點需要面對第一個就是算力第二個是電力第三個是人力上次我在諮詢經濟部的時候有提到說我們有沒有把AI需要的電力來把它算進去\n113025\t129258\t因為現在大家都大幅的加碼投資剛剛也是一堆算力中心要進來了那我想跟主委請教就是說因為算力就是非常需要電力那我們之前在做這些估算的時候有沒有把這些電力的規劃都放進去呢?\n130945\t152892\t有沒有協助經濟部來做這些規劃呢?有,抱歉。報告委員,我們跟經濟部是一直密切在溝通。在經濟部提出來的這個規劃裡面,其實未來幾年,我們依照現在AI的需求以及半導體製造的需求,這個電力是一直,需求是一直在成長。\n153993\t159464\t在成長的過程當中我們會盡力去開發我們的綠電這個綠電目前規劃當中是希望將來短期內\n165117\t194363\t我們現在預計要增建這些算力這個超級電腦能夠符合現在經濟部的規劃所以目前經濟部的報告是沒有問題好那這部分因為其實因為這個AI的進步是成長迅速啦所以而且雖然說好像我們算力大幅的增加我們效能增加電力也沒用到這麼多但是我覺得這邊我們還是要實時的去保持我們要去計算出相對的一些電力需求讓我們確保我們的這些產業還有AI算力中心都可以持續的有好好的運作\n195243\t219304\t謝謝委員那再來就是說因為其實我們在112年有提供提出一個晶片驅動臺灣創新產業的一個方案也投入了3000多億要來挹注這個生成式AI的關鍵技術那也有說我們要跟百工百業來去調查他們的AI需求然後並且已經以機械業為示範的案例建立了資料共享機制那我想要了解在這一段\n219884\t242952\t我們目前針對百工百業雖然是112年開始那我們接下來的一個規劃目前的進度是什麼有沒有詳細的一個推廣我們大概要到什麼時候推廣到多少的產業這樣子我在上個月接任的時候有跟媒體宣布過我們在三個月內要規劃出一個方案出來三個月內是嗎三個月內那之後可以規劃出方案的時候可不可以也提供給我們\n244509\t256064\t當然一定也會在這邊報告跟委員報告那接下來我想要再提醒我不知道主委有沒有看過這一份就是AI產業化去年一個新的大調查的報告不知道主委看過這份報告嗎\n258853\t286465\t這份報告我個人沒有看過好喔沒關係那我之後也希望說主委可能也可以看一下因為他提我們剛剛講百工百業他其實就講到了他們去調查了四種不同的產業這樣子製造業啦然後還有專業服務業啊然後還有ICP產業等等的那他就講到去了解說到底有多少企業導入了AI那這樣看起來雖然有近半數好像有導入但是也有近半數過半數已經導入但是也有近半數完全沒有\n287125\t309633\t獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n309713\t317741\t但是我們的製造業政府機關以及零售貿易服務業都是低於平均的所以這一塊非常需要主委的協助\n319353\t348653\t我自己看了一些報導他們說製造業是可以導入AI模型來輔助增進產線的生產效率提升良率、預防性維修所以這些都是好處但是我也看到了這個人工智慧學校的校長孔祥忠院士他提到說我們現在的政府資料其實是有問題的我們的原始資料不明是什麼樣的資料何時收集是否經過整理都不清楚第二個也不知道資料到底放在哪裡伺服器經常壞許多實驗產出數據寫了兩篇論文之後資料就不知道在哪裡了\n349433\t367991\t第三個授權的規格不明是否定期維護所以就變成說政府都說有資料但是沒有整理成AI模型可以使用的都不算真的資料所以如果以這個標準來看可用的資料其實非常少那就會很難做出AI模型那\n369176\t381526\t說他有三個建議就是說我們是不是可以把這個資料整理清楚建立產業模型來養技職人才那是不是可以在像是如果是通用的通用資料就用通用模型給一般人專業領域喔如製造業醫療業\n384608\t384948\t請數位部回答\n404552\t432883\t跟委員報告本部的資料治理的部分是由我們多元創新司來負責那委員剛剛指出的非常正確就是目前政府資料的狀況是屬於一個還在比較初階的階段那我們會爭取一個公共建設計畫做所謂的資料圖譜讓各個政府的資料它的整個圖像變得比較清楚那相對來講不管是要進行資料創接應用服務也好\n433243\t433703\t主任委員吳誠文．\n459098\t459999\t今天委員也有提到\n474717\t495858\t到底我們要不要持續的去對台德做投資?那我自己看這個圖靈獎得主主導Meta AI研究的科學家楊立坤他就有講不要研究大型語言模型這上次我有跟主委講我們應該要來專精於本土語言模型這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方那我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告我也發現資訊業\n499701\t513155\t資料製造業他們有導入的那些企業他們使用的就是checkGPT、MeJourney這種東西所以其實是跟我們的這個台德是有相關我們是有競爭優勢的啦但是有一個提醒\n517699\t536358\t金融時報在5月22日報導了中國近期透過的一些官方訓練他們自己的CHAT GPT叫做CHAT CPT這是金融時報說的因為它主要訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫\n537679\t558126\t習思想是由14條原則來組成的包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀所以他今天闡述的內容其實是會造成一些很大的偏頗的問題有不中立的問題那剛剛好今天國有日報他也講到了這一點\n559853\t570486\t所以這一點我想請主委或是誰可以來回答我就說當世界都在發展AI的時候我們今天是我們的本土語言模型的時候我們要如何來確保我們的資料不是偏頗的\n572202\t599071\t我非常同意委員的觀點其實大型元模型不是萬靈丹它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法它是一種統計性的方式需要大量的資料、非常大的模型用耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確它其實不是所有的應用都適合\n599811\t624511\t我們現在範講AI,AI有很多種方式所以我們要混合其他的方式不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型所以委員的觀點非常好所以我們要兼顧說能源的有效使用人才的有效使用模型的優化資料的準確度將來在各行各業的應用我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的這個發展很同意委員的觀點\n625331\t642278\t對,但是我想要知道就是說剛剛其實有講嘛就是說我也非常認同啦就是說我們應該要做出一些差異化而且是真正適合台灣的產業使用的那當然就是說延伸這一點我先延伸一下就是說我們應該要來跟企業來合作開發更多的應用情境來協助企業來使用這個深層式AI這樣子那但是齁\n648380\t649020\t您可以再做一些說明嗎?\n672526\t694093\t我想跟委員報告一下我們所謂的這個TIDE因為Trustworthy缺的資料不偏頗是我們一個蠻重要的任務那未來這個在數位部的評測中心其實他們也會做這方面的檢測所以這是我們很注意的一個重點在發表TIDE的時候這檢測性是頻率是多久呢我們資料對就資料進來的時候要經過評測中心來檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗這樣子好所以這個那個114年的公建計畫應該也非常有關係對不對會是好了解謝謝喔\n702948\t702968\t謝謝委員\n","txt":"張雅琳委員謝謝主席 我們有請主委有請吳主委委員好\n主委好,因為剛剛有委員問到就是有關於兒童教育在AI這一段那我就想我就先延伸來提醒一下就其實在2016年世界經濟論壇就一路出報告來提醒大家面對AI孩子需要具備的能力是什麼在AI世代如何還是成為世界上極具有競爭力的人才其實是透過遊戲\n因為遊戲之中其實有充分的創造力的練習這個是AI現在沒有辦法取代的所以我希望就是說我們雖然要關注兒童的教育面的話我們可能還是要非常的謹慎不要就是投入太多的AI的課程反而剝奪了兒童遊戲的時間那反而是讓我們沒有辦法在AI時代可以存活下來這個是從2016年開始世界經濟論壇就一個很大的提醒\n臺灣是無名英雄是世界的支柱那感染也鼓舞了所有的臺灣人\n同時接下來有一系列不管是AMD或是超微他們都宣布要投資台灣一瞬間台灣變成了世界的中心台北市電腦工會理事長有提到有三個重點需要面對第一個就是算力第二個是電力第三個是人力上次我在諮詢經濟部的時候有提到說我們有沒有把AI需要的電力來把它算進去\n因為現在大家都大幅的加碼投資剛剛也是一堆算力中心要進來了那我想跟主委請教就是說因為算力就是非常需要電力那我們之前在做這些估算的時候有沒有把這些電力的規劃都放進去呢?\n有沒有協助經濟部來做這些規劃呢?有,抱歉。報告委員,我們跟經濟部是一直密切在溝通。在經濟部提出來的這個規劃裡面,其實未來幾年,我們依照現在AI的需求以及半導體製造的需求,這個電力是一直,需求是一直在成長。\n在成長的過程當中我們會盡力去開發我們的綠電這個綠電目前規劃當中是希望將來短期內\n我們現在預計要增建這些算力這個超級電腦能夠符合現在經濟部的規劃所以目前經濟部的報告是沒有問題好那這部分因為其實因為這個AI的進步是成長迅速啦所以而且雖然說好像我們算力大幅的增加我們效能增加電力也沒用到這麼多但是我覺得這邊我們還是要實時的去保持我們要去計算出相對的一些電力需求讓我們確保我們的這些產業還有AI算力中心都可以持續的有好好的運作\n謝謝委員那再來就是說因為其實我們在112年有提供提出一個晶片驅動臺灣創新產業的一個方案也投入了3000多億要來挹注這個生成式AI的關鍵技術那也有說我們要跟百工百業來去調查他們的AI需求然後並且已經以機械業為示範的案例建立了資料共享機制那我想要了解在這一段\n我們目前針對百工百業雖然是112年開始那我們接下來的一個規劃目前的進度是什麼有沒有詳細的一個推廣我們大概要到什麼時候推廣到多少的產業這樣子我在上個月接任的時候有跟媒體宣布過我們在三個月內要規劃出一個方案出來三個月內是嗎三個月內那之後可以規劃出方案的時候可不可以也提供給我們\n當然一定也會在這邊報告跟委員報告那接下來我想要再提醒我不知道主委有沒有看過這一份就是AI產業化去年一個新的大調查的報告不知道主委看過這份報告嗎\n這份報告我個人沒有看過好喔沒關係那我之後也希望說主委可能也可以看一下因為他提我們剛剛講百工百業他其實就講到了他們去調查了四種不同的產業這樣子製造業啦然後還有專業服務業啊然後還有ICP產業等等的那他就講到去了解說到底有多少企業導入了AI那這樣看起來雖然有近半數好像有導入但是也有近半數過半數已經導入但是也有近半數完全沒有\n獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲\n但是我們的製造業政府機關以及零售貿易服務業都是低於平均的所以這一塊非常需要主委的協助\n我自己看了一些報導他們說製造業是可以導入AI模型來輔助增進產線的生產效率提升良率、預防性維修所以這些都是好處但是我也看到了這個人工智慧學校的校長孔祥忠院士他提到說我們現在的政府資料其實是有問題的我們的原始資料不明是什麼樣的資料何時收集是否經過整理都不清楚第二個也不知道資料到底放在哪裡伺服器經常壞許多實驗產出數據寫了兩篇論文之後資料就不知道在哪裡了\n第三個授權的規格不明是否定期維護所以就變成說政府都說有資料但是沒有整理成AI模型可以使用的都不算真的資料所以如果以這個標準來看可用的資料其實非常少那就會很難做出AI模型那\n說他有三個建議就是說我們是不是可以把這個資料整理清楚建立產業模型來養技職人才那是不是可以在像是如果是通用的通用資料就用通用模型給一般人專業領域喔如製造業醫療業\n請數位部回答\n跟委員報告本部的資料治理的部分是由我們多元創新司來負責那委員剛剛指出的非常正確就是目前政府資料的狀況是屬於一個還在比較初階的階段那我們會爭取一個公共建設計畫做所謂的資料圖譜讓各個政府的資料它的整個圖像變得比較清楚那相對來講不管是要進行資料創接應用服務也好\n主任委員吳誠文．\n今天委員也有提到\n到底我們要不要持續的去對台德做投資?那我自己看這個圖靈獎得主主導Meta AI研究的科學家楊立坤他就有講不要研究大型語言模型這上次我有跟主委講我們應該要來專精於本土語言模型這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方那我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告我也發現資訊業\n資料製造業他們有導入的那些企業他們使用的就是checkGPT、MeJourney這種東西所以其實是跟我們的這個台德是有相關我們是有競爭優勢的啦但是有一個提醒\n金融時報在5月22日報導了中國近期透過的一些官方訓練他們自己的CHAT GPT叫做CHAT CPT這是金融時報說的因為它主要訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫\n習思想是由14條原則來組成的包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀所以他今天闡述的內容其實是會造成一些很大的偏頗的問題有不中立的問題那剛剛好今天國有日報他也講到了這一點\n所以這一點我想請主委或是誰可以來回答我就說當世界都在發展AI的時候我們今天是我們的本土語言模型的時候我們要如何來確保我們的資料不是偏頗的\n我非常同意委員的觀點其實大型元模型不是萬靈丹它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法它是一種統計性的方式需要大量的資料、非常大的模型用耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確它其實不是所有的應用都適合\n我們現在範講AI,AI有很多種方式所以我們要混合其他的方式不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型所以委員的觀點非常好所以我們要兼顧說能源的有效使用人才的有效使用模型的優化資料的準確度將來在各行各業的應用我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的這個發展很同意委員的觀點\n對,但是我想要知道就是說剛剛其實有講嘛就是說我也非常認同啦就是說我們應該要做出一些差異化而且是真正適合台灣的產業使用的那當然就是說延伸這一點我先延伸一下就是說我們應該要來跟企業來合作開發更多的應用情境來協助企業來使用這個深層式AI這樣子那但是齁\n您可以再做一些說明嗎?\n我想跟委員報告一下我們所謂的這個TIDE因為Trustworthy缺的資料不偏頗是我們一個蠻重要的任務那未來這個在數位部的評測中心其實他們也會做這方面的檢測所以這是我們很注意的一個重點在發表TIDE的時候這檢測性是頻率是多久呢我們資料對就資料進來的時候要經過評測中心來檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗這樣子好所以這個那個114年的公建計畫應該也非常有關係對不對會是好了解謝謝喔\n謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:10.342\n張雅琳委員謝謝主席我們有請主委有請吳主委委員好\n\n00:16.154 --> 00:38.902\n主委好,因為剛剛有委員問到就是有關於兒童教育在AI這一段那我就想我就先延伸來提醒一下就其實在2016年世界經濟論壇就一路出報告來提醒大家面對AI孩子需要具備的能力是什麼在AI世代如何還是成為世界上極具有競爭力的人才其實是透過遊戲\n\n00:40.682 --> 01:05.981\n因為遊戲之中其實有充分的創造力的練習這個是AI現在沒有辦法取代的所以我希望就是說我們雖然要關注兒童的教育面的話我們可能還是要非常的謹慎不要就是投入太多的AI的課程反而剝奪了兒童遊戲的時間那反而是讓我們沒有辦法在AI時代可以存活下來這個是從2016年開始世界經濟論壇就一個很大的提醒\n\n01:07.543 --> 01:09.786\n臺灣是無名英雄是世界的支柱那感染也鼓舞了所有的臺灣人\n\n01:23.519 --> 01:52.225\n同時接下來有一系列不管是AMD或是超微他們都宣布要投資台灣一瞬間台灣變成了世界的中心台北市電腦工會理事長有提到有三個重點需要面對第一個就是算力第二個是電力第三個是人力上次我在諮詢經濟部的時候有提到說我們有沒有把AI需要的電力來把它算進去\n\n01:53.025 --> 02:09.258\n因為現在大家都大幅的加碼投資剛剛也是一堆算力中心要進來了那我想跟主委請教就是說因為算力就是非常需要電力那我們之前在做這些估算的時候有沒有把這些電力的規劃都放進去呢?\n\n02:10.945 --> 02:32.892\n有沒有協助經濟部來做這些規劃呢?有,抱歉。報告委員,我們跟經濟部是一直密切在溝通。在經濟部提出來的這個規劃裡面,其實未來幾年,我們依照現在AI的需求以及半導體製造的需求,這個電力是一直,需求是一直在成長。\n\n02:33.993 --> 02:39.464\n在成長的過程當中我們會盡力去開發我們的綠電這個綠電目前規劃當中是希望將來短期內\n\n02:45.117 --> 03:14.363\n我們現在預計要增建這些算力這個超級電腦能夠符合現在經濟部的規劃所以目前經濟部的報告是沒有問題好那這部分因為其實因為這個AI的進步是成長迅速啦所以而且雖然說好像我們算力大幅的增加我們效能增加電力也沒用到這麼多但是我覺得這邊我們還是要實時的去保持我們要去計算出相對的一些電力需求讓我們確保我們的這些產業還有AI算力中心都可以持續的有好好的運作\n\n03:15.243 --> 03:39.304\n謝謝委員那再來就是說因為其實我們在112年有提供提出一個晶片驅動臺灣創新產業的一個方案也投入了3000多億要來挹注這個生成式AI的關鍵技術那也有說我們要跟百工百業來去調查他們的AI需求然後並且已經以機械業為示範的案例建立了資料共享機制那我想要了解在這一段\n\n03:39.884 --> 04:02.952\n我們目前針對百工百業雖然是112年開始那我們接下來的一個規劃目前的進度是什麼有沒有詳細的一個推廣我們大概要到什麼時候推廣到多少的產業這樣子我在上個月接任的時候有跟媒體宣布過我們在三個月內要規劃出一個方案出來三個月內是嗎三個月內那之後可以規劃出方案的時候可不可以也提供給我們\n\n04:04.509 --> 04:16.064\n當然一定也會在這邊報告跟委員報告那接下來我想要再提醒我不知道主委有沒有看過這一份就是AI產業化去年一個新的大調查的報告不知道主委看過這份報告嗎\n\n04:18.853 --> 04:46.465\n這份報告我個人沒有看過好喔沒關係那我之後也希望說主委可能也可以看一下因為他提我們剛剛講百工百業他其實就講到了他們去調查了四種不同的產業這樣子製造業啦然後還有專業服務業啊然後還有ICP產業等等的那他就講到去了解說到底有多少企業導入了AI那這樣看起來雖然有近半數好像有導入但是也有近半數過半數已經導入但是也有近半數完全沒有\n\n05:09.713 --> 05:17.741\n但是我們的製造業政府機關以及零售貿易服務業都是低於平均的所以這一塊非常需要主委的協助\n\n05:19.353 --> 05:48.653\n我自己看了一些報導他們說製造業是可以導入AI模型來輔助增進產線的生產效率提升良率、預防性維修所以這些都是好處但是我也看到了這個人工智慧學校的校長孔祥忠院士他提到說我們現在的政府資料其實是有問題的我們的原始資料不明是什麼樣的資料何時收集是否經過整理都不清楚第二個也不知道資料到底放在哪裡伺服器經常壞許多實驗產出數據寫了兩篇論文之後資料就不知道在哪裡了\n\n05:49.433 --> 06:07.991\n第三個授權的規格不明是否定期維護所以就變成說政府都說有資料但是沒有整理成AI模型可以使用的都不算真的資料所以如果以這個標準來看可用的資料其實非常少那就會很難做出AI模型那\n\n06:09.176 --> 06:21.526\n說他有三個建議就是說我們是不是可以把這個資料整理清楚建立產業模型來養技職人才那是不是可以在像是如果是通用的通用資料就用通用模型給一般人專業領域喔如製造業醫療業\n\n06:24.608 --> 06:24.948\n請數位部回答\n\n06:44.552 --> 07:12.883\n跟委員報告本部的資料治理的部分是由我們多元創新司來負責那委員剛剛指出的非常正確就是目前政府資料的狀況是屬於一個還在比較初階的階段那我們會爭取一個公共建設計畫做所謂的資料圖譜讓各個政府的資料它的整個圖像變得比較清楚那相對來講不管是要進行資料創接應用服務也好\n\n07:13.243 --> 07:13.703\n主任委員吳誠文．\n\n07:39.098 --> 07:39.999\n今天委員也有提到\n\n07:54.717 --> 08:15.858\n到底我們要不要持續的去對台德做投資?那我自己看這個圖靈獎得主主導MetaAI研究的科學家楊立坤他就有講不要研究大型語言模型這上次我有跟主委講我們應該要來專精於本土語言模型這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方那我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告我也發現資訊業\n\n08:19.701 --> 08:33.155\n資料製造業他們有導入的那些企業他們使用的就是checkGPT、MeJourney這種東西所以其實是跟我們的這個台德是有相關我們是有競爭優勢的啦但是有一個提醒\n\n08:37.699 --> 08:56.358\n金融時報在5月22日報導了中國近期透過的一些官方訓練他們自己的CHATGPT叫做CHATCPT這是金融時報說的因為它主要訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫\n\n08:57.679 --> 09:18.126\n習思想是由14條原則來組成的包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀所以他今天闡述的內容其實是會造成一些很大的偏頗的問題有不中立的問題那剛剛好今天國有日報他也講到了這一點\n\n09:19.853 --> 09:30.486\n所以這一點我想請主委或是誰可以來回答我就說當世界都在發展AI的時候我們今天是我們的本土語言模型的時候我們要如何來確保我們的資料不是偏頗的\n\n09:32.202 --> 09:59.071\n我非常同意委員的觀點其實大型元模型不是萬靈丹它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法它是一種統計性的方式需要大量的資料、非常大的模型用耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確它其實不是所有的應用都適合\n\n09:59.811 --> 10:24.511\n我們現在範講AI,AI有很多種方式所以我們要混合其他的方式不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型所以委員的觀點非常好所以我們要兼顧說能源的有效使用人才的有效使用模型的優化資料的準確度將來在各行各業的應用我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的這個發展很同意委員的觀點\n\n10:25.331 --> 10:42.278\n對,但是我想要知道就是說剛剛其實有講嘛就是說我也非常認同啦就是說我們應該要做出一些差異化而且是真正適合台灣的產業使用的那當然就是說延伸這一點我先延伸一下就是說我們應該要來跟企業來合作開發更多的應用情境來協助企業來使用這個深層式AI這樣子那但是齁\n\n10:48.380 --> 10:49.020\n您可以再做一些說明嗎?\n\n11:12.526 --> 11:34.093\n我想跟委員報告一下我們所謂的這個TIDE因為Trustworthy缺的資料不偏頗是我們一個蠻重要的任務那未來這個在數位部的評測中心其實他們也會做這方面的檢測所以這是我們很注意的一個重點在發表TIDE的時候這檢測性是頻率是多久呢我們資料對就資料進來的時候要經過評測中心來檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗這樣子好所以這個那個114年的公建計畫應該也非常有關係對不對會是好了解謝謝喔\n\n11:42.948 --> 11:42.968\n謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.269,"end":10.342,"text":"張雅琳委員謝謝主席 我們有請主委有請吳主委委員好"},{"start":16.154,"end":38.902,"text":"主委好,因為剛剛有委員問到就是有關於兒童教育在AI這一段那我就想我就先延伸來提醒一下就其實在2016年世界經濟論壇就一路出報告來提醒大家面對AI孩子需要具備的能力是什麼在AI世代如何還是成為世界上極具有競爭力的人才其實是透過遊戲"},{"start":40.682,"end":65.981,"text":"因為遊戲之中其實有充分的創造力的練習這個是AI現在沒有辦法取代的所以我希望就是說我們雖然要關注兒童的教育面的話我們可能還是要非常的謹慎不要就是投入太多的AI的課程反而剝奪了兒童遊戲的時間那反而是讓我們沒有辦法在AI時代可以存活下來這個是從2016年開始世界經濟論壇就一個很大的提醒"},{"start":67.543,"end":69.786,"text":"臺灣是無名英雄是世界的支柱那感染也鼓舞了所有的臺灣人"},{"start":83.519,"end":112.225,"text":"同時接下來有一系列不管是AMD或是超微他們都宣布要投資台灣一瞬間台灣變成了世界的中心台北市電腦工會理事長有提到有三個重點需要面對第一個就是算力第二個是電力第三個是人力上次我在諮詢經濟部的時候有提到說我們有沒有把AI需要的電力來把它算進去"},{"start":113.025,"end":129.258,"text":"因為現在大家都大幅的加碼投資剛剛也是一堆算力中心要進來了那我想跟主委請教就是說因為算力就是非常需要電力那我們之前在做這些估算的時候有沒有把這些電力的規劃都放進去呢?"},{"start":130.945,"end":152.892,"text":"有沒有協助經濟部來做這些規劃呢?有,抱歉。報告委員,我們跟經濟部是一直密切在溝通。在經濟部提出來的這個規劃裡面,其實未來幾年,我們依照現在AI的需求以及半導體製造的需求,這個電力是一直,需求是一直在成長。"},{"start":153.993,"end":159.464,"text":"在成長的過程當中我們會盡力去開發我們的綠電這個綠電目前規劃當中是希望將來短期內"},{"start":165.117,"end":194.363,"text":"我們現在預計要增建這些算力這個超級電腦能夠符合現在經濟部的規劃所以目前經濟部的報告是沒有問題好那這部分因為其實因為這個AI的進步是成長迅速啦所以而且雖然說好像我們算力大幅的增加我們效能增加電力也沒用到這麼多但是我覺得這邊我們還是要實時的去保持我們要去計算出相對的一些電力需求讓我們確保我們的這些產業還有AI算力中心都可以持續的有好好的運作"},{"start":195.243,"end":219.304,"text":"謝謝委員那再來就是說因為其實我們在112年有提供提出一個晶片驅動臺灣創新產業的一個方案也投入了3000多億要來挹注這個生成式AI的關鍵技術那也有說我們要跟百工百業來去調查他們的AI需求然後並且已經以機械業為示範的案例建立了資料共享機制那我想要了解在這一段"},{"start":219.884,"end":242.952,"text":"我們目前針對百工百業雖然是112年開始那我們接下來的一個規劃目前的進度是什麼有沒有詳細的一個推廣我們大概要到什麼時候推廣到多少的產業這樣子我在上個月接任的時候有跟媒體宣布過我們在三個月內要規劃出一個方案出來三個月內是嗎三個月內那之後可以規劃出方案的時候可不可以也提供給我們"},{"start":244.509,"end":256.064,"text":"當然一定也會在這邊報告跟委員報告那接下來我想要再提醒我不知道主委有沒有看過這一份就是AI產業化去年一個新的大調查的報告不知道主委看過這份報告嗎"},{"start":258.853,"end":286.465,"text":"這份報告我個人沒有看過好喔沒關係那我之後也希望說主委可能也可以看一下因為他提我們剛剛講百工百業他其實就講到了他們去調查了四種不同的產業這樣子製造業啦然後還有專業服務業啊然後還有ICP產業等等的那他就講到去了解說到底有多少企業導入了AI那這樣看起來雖然有近半數好像有導入但是也有近半數過半數已經導入但是也有近半數完全沒有"},{"start":287.125,"end":309.633,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":309.713,"end":317.741,"text":"但是我們的製造業政府機關以及零售貿易服務業都是低於平均的所以這一塊非常需要主委的協助"},{"start":319.353,"end":348.653,"text":"我自己看了一些報導他們說製造業是可以導入AI模型來輔助增進產線的生產效率提升良率、預防性維修所以這些都是好處但是我也看到了這個人工智慧學校的校長孔祥忠院士他提到說我們現在的政府資料其實是有問題的我們的原始資料不明是什麼樣的資料何時收集是否經過整理都不清楚第二個也不知道資料到底放在哪裡伺服器經常壞許多實驗產出數據寫了兩篇論文之後資料就不知道在哪裡了"},{"start":349.433,"end":367.991,"text":"第三個授權的規格不明是否定期維護所以就變成說政府都說有資料但是沒有整理成AI模型可以使用的都不算真的資料所以如果以這個標準來看可用的資料其實非常少那就會很難做出AI模型那"},{"start":369.176,"end":381.526,"text":"說他有三個建議就是說我們是不是可以把這個資料整理清楚建立產業模型來養技職人才那是不是可以在像是如果是通用的通用資料就用通用模型給一般人專業領域喔如製造業醫療業"},{"start":384.608,"end":384.948,"text":"請數位部回答"},{"start":404.552,"end":432.883,"text":"跟委員報告本部的資料治理的部分是由我們多元創新司來負責那委員剛剛指出的非常正確就是目前政府資料的狀況是屬於一個還在比較初階的階段那我們會爭取一個公共建設計畫做所謂的資料圖譜讓各個政府的資料它的整個圖像變得比較清楚那相對來講不管是要進行資料創接應用服務也好"},{"start":433.243,"end":433.703,"text":"主任委員吳誠文．"},{"start":459.098,"end":459.999,"text":"今天委員也有提到"},{"start":474.717,"end":495.858,"text":"到底我們要不要持續的去對台德做投資?那我自己看這個圖靈獎得主主導Meta AI研究的科學家楊立坤他就有講不要研究大型語言模型這上次我有跟主委講我們應該要來專精於本土語言模型這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方那我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告我也發現資訊業"},{"start":499.701,"end":513.155,"text":"資料製造業他們有導入的那些企業他們使用的就是checkGPT、MeJourney這種東西所以其實是跟我們的這個台德是有相關我們是有競爭優勢的啦但是有一個提醒"},{"start":517.699,"end":536.358,"text":"金融時報在5月22日報導了中國近期透過的一些官方訓練他們自己的CHAT GPT叫做CHAT CPT這是金融時報說的因為它主要訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫"},{"start":537.679,"end":558.126,"text":"習思想是由14條原則來組成的包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀所以他今天闡述的內容其實是會造成一些很大的偏頗的問題有不中立的問題那剛剛好今天國有日報他也講到了這一點"},{"start":559.853,"end":570.486,"text":"所以這一點我想請主委或是誰可以來回答我就說當世界都在發展AI的時候我們今天是我們的本土語言模型的時候我們要如何來確保我們的資料不是偏頗的"},{"start":572.202,"end":599.071,"text":"我非常同意委員的觀點其實大型元模型不是萬靈丹它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法它是一種統計性的方式需要大量的資料、非常大的模型用耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確它其實不是所有的應用都適合"},{"start":599.811,"end":624.511,"text":"我們現在範講AI,AI有很多種方式所以我們要混合其他的方式不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型所以委員的觀點非常好所以我們要兼顧說能源的有效使用人才的有效使用模型的優化資料的準確度將來在各行各業的應用我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的這個發展很同意委員的觀點"},{"start":625.331,"end":642.278,"text":"對,但是我想要知道就是說剛剛其實有講嘛就是說我也非常認同啦就是說我們應該要做出一些差異化而且是真正適合台灣的產業使用的那當然就是說延伸這一點我先延伸一下就是說我們應該要來跟企業來合作開發更多的應用情境來協助企業來使用這個深層式AI這樣子那但是齁"},{"start":648.38,"end":649.02,"text":"您可以再做一些說明嗎?"},{"start":672.526,"end":694.093,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我們所謂的這個TIDE因為Trustworthy缺的資料不偏頗是我們一個蠻重要的任務那未來這個在數位部的評測中心其實他們也會做這方面的檢測所以這是我們很注意的一個重點在發表TIDE的時候這檢測性是頻率是多久呢我們資料對就資料進來的時候要經過評測中心來檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗這樣子好所以這個那個114年的公建計畫應該也非常有關係對不對會是好了解謝謝喔"},{"start":702.948,"end":702.968,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}}}}