{"id":153586,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153586","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98d387e5fcb18250efe41b4d0ae556a0d911da973c502cee62edafc1b978c0a0025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:55:41 - 11:06:50","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:55:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:06:50+08:00","duration":669,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":654,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時55分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長還有李廳長。"],["主席：請鄭部長跟李廳長。"],["吳委員宗憲：李廳長你好。"],["李廳長釱任：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：在這邊我先跟部長及廳長說一下，我先直接破題說我的想法，對於科技偵查，其實我從到這邊開始就是舉雙手贊成一定要趕快進行修法，但是我的立場一直覺得這個應該要修刑事訴訟法，為什麼是要另立專法？因為就像林山田老師說的，我們國家已經走到一個特別法肥大症，什麼都搞特別法，這樣是對的嗎？我們是不是應該回過頭去思考，是不是要從最根本的方式去著手？就像德國，德國就把科技偵查的方式列在刑事訴訟法中，我自己的提案也是認為應該就刑事訴訟法去修法，另立專章都可以，但是說實在的，我不太認為應該是用另立專法的方式去處理。我想就教一下司法院，請問司法院對於行政院提出科偵法的這個專法有什麼想法？"],["李廳長釱任：有關於科偵法的草擬過程，我們司法院一直都在，都沒有缺席，我們認為用專法來處理也可以適時的、及時的符合偵查機關的需求，這部分之前也有前例，通保法就是一個例子，因為通保法包括整個審查的要件、原理原則，還包括後續的行政處理，包括資料的銷毀、保管，包括證據能力等，這些都由專法來處理。有關德國刑事訴訟法的部分，我們也有查過，的確他們是把相關的科技偵查手段都規範在刑事訴訟法裡面。但是在通訊監察的部分，我國從88年就是用專法的方式來處理了……"],["吳委員宗憲：這個我知道啊！我現在是問你科偵法的部分，至於通保法的部分，我想說已經20年了，我們就不要再去討論那個部分。因為我一直認為侵害人權的東西其實都要法官保留，我一直是這種觀念，不要說由偵查機關自己去下決定，這樣其實對人權保障會更好，否則我跟你講，其實以前搜索權在檢察官那邊的時候，有一些檢察官就會濫用嘛，自從到法官之後，其實已經規避掉很多濫用的問題了，但是我一直覺得很奇怪，106年最高法院在判決裡面就已經要求，有關GPS追蹤器使用的要件，希望要趕快研擬，可是7年過去了，到底司法院有做了什麼樣的改正，去正當化這個法律程序呢？"],["李廳長釱任：跟委員報告一下，從我手邊所查詢到的，因為我是前年才接廳長的位子，但是我搜尋我們廳內的相關資料，事實上，在108年我們刑事廳就曾經草擬過用專章的方式在刑事訴訟法裡面來修法，但是在109年，法務部就已經公布，就是預告了所謂的科技偵查法草案，也許是當時的氛圍或是當時的需要，立法分工改由法務部這邊來處理……"],["吳委員宗憲：廳長，會不會有這個可能性啦？因為訴訟法是司法院處理的嘛，法務部沒辦法啊，法務部一直等著司法院要修法，但司法院一直不修法，然後法務部底下的檢察官們GPS也不能用、M化車也不能用，到最後沒有辦法，只好逼著法務部趕快提專法出來！在我當檢察官的時候我是這麼誤認啦，如果說這是一個誤會的話，我在當檢察官的時候，我一直在說「奇怪！司法院到底在幹嘛？還不趕快修刑事訴訟法」，然後你去逼著法務部，因為法務部沒有辦法修刑事訴訟法，逼著行政院去搞一個專法出來，但這個專法真的是很奇怪，你跟著這次打詐專法一起出來，我覺得其實有更多案子也是很需要科技偵查，當然這個專法是for很多犯罪啦！但是我覺得，如果是各種犯罪都適用的時候，你為什麼不定在基本的刑事訴訟法裡面？搜索、扣押都在刑事訴訟法，今天科技偵查的方式其實類似於搜索、扣押的這種概念，結果你卻要另立專法。其實我跟你說，這次行政院版科偵法專法裡面的條文我沒有反對，我也蠻支持的，但是我今天是對於體例上面為何要另立專法而不是設在刑事訴訟法裡面有疑問，更何況今天我們很多東西要求的是法官保留，今天由司法院就刑事訴訟法去修正，那不是最好嗎？你今天讓法務部來定一個東西，然後叫法官來遵守，我個人覺得無法想像為什麼要把體例弄成這樣。我自己在當檢察官的時候，我的感覺是，到底司法院在混什麼東西，為什麼不趕快修刑事訴訟法，然後搞得我們以前GPS都不能用？就是以前常常在用的GPS，後來發生2014年海巡署的那個案子，海巡署的人被判拘役59天，那個之後沒有人敢用，結果國家在偵查犯罪的時候非常的困難，因為犯嫌他們用最好的車子、最好的電腦設備，因為他們賺很多錢，所以他們都買最好的設備，結果我們的司法機關、我們的警察機關礙於預算，我們都是用比他們舊好幾代的設備在辦他們。今天我們好不容易辦出一個了，我們希望裝個GPS，然後去跟蹤他的車，結果法院說不准，這會妨害秘密，所以大家又只好騎摩托車、開車在後面跟，跟沒有幾條街就找不到，不然就被發現，不然就是為了跟一部車，動用十幾、二十個人。這些年來我也不懂為什麼司法院遲遲不願意就這幾個重點的部分去修法，所以我才會說是不是這個原因，因為司法院遲遲不肯修刑訴，導致法務部、行政院不得不推這個很奇怪的專法出來。"],["李廳長釱任：委員，我回應一下，當時的時空背景是怎麼樣我可能無從得知，不過我可以推敲的是，偵查作為主要是偵查機關在使用，它最貼近第一線的偵查人員，它對相關偵查手段的日新月異能最快的掌握住，因為它最快掌握住，用專法的話可以馬上作一些相關的修法反應，由法務部這邊做主導，我們也不反對，但是我們司法院在相關的修法過程中，可以立於比較高的人權高度，包括從人權保障的高度來看相關法條訂定的相關內容，我覺得這部分可能比較重要，至於說是在刑事訴訟法或是以另立專法的方式，我覺得這是個政策選擇或立法選擇，但是目前來講，我覺得可以快速反應偵查機關所需，做適當的修正，因為基本上司法院對偵查機關相關偵查作為日新月異的相關手段，我們的知悉可能比較晚一點……"],["吳委員宗憲：廳長，你的想法是這樣，但是我的想法比較是說，很多時候我覺得國家的設計要避免球員兼裁判，他要用的東西讓他來設計，當然有效率，但是對於人權的保障會相對讓大家有所懷疑，如果他要用的規矩由另外一個機關來訂立，有時候我們會覺得比較有保障一些。更何況這些證據的認定，將來有無證據能力或是證據力到哪裡，這個也都是法官在認定，不是檢察官，所以對於這個體例設計由專法來處理，我還是有很多的意見。","因為時間的關係，最後我想請問一下部長，如果這個法過了，你們獲取的這些數位資訊，你們怎麼監督、怎麼管考、怎麼讓人民信任你不會拿去做其他的用途？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會再訂定一個內規的要點，讓這些執行單位有所依循。"],["吳委員宗憲：目前都還沒有定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個法律過了，我們會訂定一個內控的機制。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以目前都沒有任何的計畫嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在還沒定。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！那這樣，兩個月內你可不可以給我一個你們內部……你不能說法過了，檢察官都開始上線在用科技偵查了，結果資料怎麼保存不知道，像德國是有一個中立的單位在審查，你們去看一下，德國是有設置一個外部的中立單位審查。","我跟你講，打擊犯罪大家都OK、都愛，但是今天不管哪一個人都怕我們的資料或者是這些人的資料被拿去濫用，像王義川的事情是不是就讓很多人人心惶惶？雖然結論不知道有沒有違法，但是總是會讓社會造成一些擔心，所以這個部分可不可以兩個月內給我們一份資料，就是說你們打算怎麼樣去監督取得的這些數位資料？還有就是設備端通訊監察的那個部分，可能要麻煩你們思考一下要怎麼做，就是木馬啦！雖然不在這次的範圍內，但是你們將來要怎麼做，可不可以給我們一個資料，能夠讓我們瞭解一下你們對於將來的想法是怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關於委員剛才提到個資的那部分，是由個人資料委員會的籌備處在主管。"],["吳委員宗憲：我瞭解，個資籌備處雖然是中立機關，但是我們也會很怕走到最後會不會跟NCC一樣，又被大家罵到臭頭，大家都開始質疑它的中立性，這是我擔心的部分，當然我也希望制度都很完美，不要讓人去濫用制度，我的想法只是這樣，謝謝兩位。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委、謝謝鄭部長、謝謝李廳長。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","由於稍後我們條文宣讀時間約9分鐘，與會人員可利用宣讀時間去洗手間稍事休息，條文宣讀完畢，我們就直接休息，到11點20分我們繼續開會。","現在進行討論事項，請議事人員先宣讀提案條文，宣讀後，我們會休息到11點20分再進行討論，如有修正動議請一併宣讀。請宣讀。","提案條文：","科技偵查及保障法草案","休息（11時16分）","繼續開會（11時20分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-30","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","黃國昌","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案","agenda_id":"1135601_00006"}},"transcript":{"id":"153586","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153586","tool":"pyannote","id":"153586-pyannote"},"job_id":"5bR6UcFS4tQcoMae","queued_at":"2024-06-05 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\"end\": 481.839, \"text\": \"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"錢\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 481.138, \"end\": 481.218, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 481.218, \"end\": 481.258, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 481.258, \"end\": 481.338, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 481.338, \"end\": 481.438, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 481.438, \"end\": 481.558, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"障\", \"start\": 481.558, \"end\": 481.659, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 481.659, \"end\": 481.679, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 481.679, \"end\": 481.699, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 481.699, \"end\": 481.719, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 481.719, \"end\": 481.819, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 481.819, \"end\": 481.839, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 496.914, \"end\": 519.953, \"text\": 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,725 --> 00:00:28,156\n好謝謝主席那我們要麻煩部長還有李廳長好請政部長跟李廳長好那個李廳長你好那我想說這邊我先跟部長跟廳長休息一下我先直接破題說我的想法啦就是對於科技偵查其實我從到這邊開始我就是舉雙手贊成一定要趕快\n\n2\n00:00:28,696 --> 00:00:43,642\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及保障法草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第2會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第3會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第4會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第5會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第6會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第7會期司法及保\n\n3\n00:00:57,208 --> 00:01:19,260\n我自己的提案也是認為說應該就刑事訴訟法裡面我們就刑事訴訟法去修法或是另立專章都可以但是實在是我不太認為說應該是用另立專法的方式去處理啦好那我想就教一下那個司法院請問一下那個司法院對於行政院的這個科偵法的這個專法司法院有什麼想法\n\n4\n00:01:21,028 --> 00:01:34,566\n檢查及保障法的草擬過程,我們司法院一直都沒有缺席。我們認為用專法來處理也可以適時及時符合偵查機關的需求。\n\n5\n00:01:35,267 --> 00:01:36,107\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案。\n\n6\n00:02:04,002 --> 00:02:32,333\n通報的那個通訊監察部分我國從88年就把就是用專法的方式來處理了沒有這我知道啊那個我現在是問你科證法的部分吶那通保法的部分我想說已經20年了我們就不要再討論那個部分因為我一直認為侵害人權的東西其實都要法官保留我一直是這種觀念吶不要說由偵查機關自己去下決定這樣其實對人權保障會更好否則我跟你講\n\n7\n00:02:34,025 --> 00:03:02,779\n其實以前搜索權在檢察官那邊的時候當然有一些檢察官他就會濫用嘛那自從到法官之後其實已經規範到很規避掉很多濫用的問題啦但是我一直覺得很奇怪從106年最高法院就已經就已經就判決裡面就要求說有關GPS追蹤器的使用要件他希望要趕快研擬可是這七年過去了到底司法院有做了什麼樣的什麼樣的那個改正然後去正當化這個法律程序呢\n\n8\n00:03:03,739 --> 00:03:05,981\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n\n9\n00:03:19,383 --> 00:03:42,501\n草擬過用專章的方式在刑事訴訟法來修法但是在109年法務部就已經有公佈他的所謂的預告科技偵查法的草案那這邊也許是當時的氛圍或是當時的需要改由立法分工由法務部來處理會不會有這個可能性因為訴訟法是司法院\n\n10\n00:03:46,952 --> 00:03:56,208\n處理的嘛,阿法務部沒辦法啊,法務部拜託,法務部一直等著司法院要修法,然後司法院一直不修法,然後法務部底下的檢察官們\n\n11\n00:03:57,602 --> 00:04:00,264\n檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查\n\n12\n00:04:22,381 --> 00:04:24,202\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案\n\n13\n00:04:50,170 --> 00:05:17,936\n這個搜索扣押的這種概念就你卻要另立專法其實我跟你說這一次院版行政院版的科偵法專法裡面的條文我沒有我沒有反對我也蠻支持的但是我今天是對於體力上面為何要另立專法而不是設在刑事訴訟法裡面更何況今天我們很多東西要求的是法官保留那今天有司法院去就刑事訴訟法去修正那不是最好嗎\n\n14\n00:05:19,156 --> 00:05:38,574\n你今天讓法務部來去定一個東西然後叫你法官來遵守我個人覺得無法想像為什麼要把體力弄成這樣所以我自己在當檢察官的時候我的一個感覺是說你到底司法院在混什麼東西的為什麼不趕快修行這訴訟法然後搞得我們以前GPS都不能用\n\n15\n00:05:39,838 --> 00:06:00,075\n對阿就是以前常常在用的GPS的話你知道嗎2014年那個海巡署的那個案子就海巡署的人被判拘獄59天那個之後沒有人敢用就國家在偵查犯罪的時候非常的困難因為犯嫌他們他們用最好的車子最好的電腦設備他們因為他們賺很多錢所以他們都買最好的設備就我們的\n\n16\n00:06:04,258 --> 00:06:07,100\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案\n\n17\n00:06:32,998 --> 00:06:52,245\n那這些年來我也不懂為什麼司法院遲遲不願意就這幾個重點的部分去修法所以我才會說是不是這個原因是不是這個原因因為司法院遲遲不肯修刑訴導致法務部、行政院不得不推這個很奇怪的專法出來\n\n18\n00:06:54,083 --> 00:07:14,571\n委員我可以回應一下是那也在當時的時空背景是怎麼樣我可能無從得知啦不過我可以推敲的是偵查偵查作為主要是偵查機關在使用他最貼近第一線的偵查人員他對相關的偵查手段的日新月異他的人最快的掌握住\n\n19\n00:07:15,111 --> 00:07:16,812\n檢查及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n20\n00:07:43,908 --> 00:08:00,177\n但是目前來講我覺得可以快速反映偵查機關所需然後做反映說適當的修正因為基本上司法院對相關偵查機關的相關偵查作為的日行願意的相關手段我們的資訊可能比較軟一點聽起來你的想法是這樣但是我的想法是比較是說\n\n21\n00:08:01,138 --> 00:08:01,839\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案。\n\n22\n00:08:16,914 --> 00:08:39,953\n我們會覺得會比較保障一點保障一些啦欸再給我一點時間吼好那還有吼就是更何況這些證據的認定將來有無證據能力或是證據力到哪裡這個也都是法官在認定嗎不是檢察官啊所以這個東西吼我還是覺得我還是對於這個體力去設計由專法來處理我還是有很多的意見吼那因為時間的關係吼\n\n23\n00:08:41,434 --> 00:09:05,160\n我最後我是希望一個東西啦我想請問一下你們這些獲取的數位資訊請問部長獲取的如果這個法過了獲取的數位資訊你們怎麼監督怎麼管考怎麼讓人民信任你不會拿去做其他的用途我們會對一個會再制定一個定定一個內規的一個一個要點讓這些執行單位那個這個有這個依循\n\n24\n00:09:06,872 --> 00:09:16,748\n所以目前都還沒有任何...這個法律過了我們會定定一個內控的一個機制所以目前都沒有任何的那個計劃嗎?\n\n25\n00:09:19,838 --> 00:09:20,719\n檢查及保障法草案案案。\n\n26\n00:09:43,038 --> 00:09:44,879\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n\n27\n00:10:00,151 --> 00:10:00,911\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n28\n00:10:26,073 --> 00:10:27,874\n檢查及保障法草案案件事宜,請審議\n\n29\n00:10:44,226 --> 00:11:05,076\n我了解啦但是各自籌備處我們也會很怕各自籌備處雖然是中立機關但走到最後會不會跟NCC一樣又被大家罵到臭頭就大家都開始質疑他的中立性這是我擔心的部分啦當然我很希望說制度都很完美不要讓人去濫用制度我的想法只是這樣好謝謝兩位好謝謝吳釗緯謝謝鄭部長謝謝李\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2725\t28156\t好謝謝主席那我們要麻煩部長還有李廳長好請政部長跟李廳長好那個李廳長你好那我想說這邊我先跟部長跟廳長休息一下我先直接破題說我的想法啦就是對於科技偵查其實我從到這邊開始我就是舉雙手贊成一定要趕快\n28696\t43642\t錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及保障法草案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第3會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第4會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第5會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第6會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第7會期司法及保\n57208\t79260\t我自己的提案也是認為說應該就刑事訴訟法裡面我們就刑事訴訟法去修法或是另立專章都可以但是實在是我不太認為說應該是用另立專法的方式去處理啦好那我想就教一下那個司法院請問一下那個司法院對於行政院的這個科偵法的這個專法司法院有什麼想法\n81028\t94566\t檢查及保障法的草擬過程,我們司法院一直都沒有缺席。我們認為用專法來處理也可以適時及時符合偵查機關的需求。\n95267\t96107\t錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。\n124002\t152333\t通報的那個通訊監察部分我國從88年就把就是用專法的方式來處理了沒有這我知道啊那個我現在是問你科證法的部分吶那通保法的部分我想說已經20年了我們就不要再討論那個部分因為我一直認為侵害人權的東西其實都要法官保留我一直是這種觀念吶不要說由偵查機關自己去下決定這樣其實對人權保障會更好否則我跟你講\n154025\t182779\t其實以前搜索權在檢察官那邊的時候當然有一些檢察官他就會濫用嘛那自從到法官之後其實已經規範到很規避掉很多濫用的問題啦但是我一直覺得很奇怪從106年最高法院就已經就已經就判決裡面就要求說有關GPS追蹤器的使用要件他希望要趕快研擬可是這七年過去了到底司法院有做了什麼樣的什麼樣的那個改正然後去正當化這個法律程序呢\n183739\t185981\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案\n199383\t222501\t草擬過用專章的方式在刑事訴訟法來修法但是在109年法務部就已經有公佈他的所謂的預告科技偵查法的草案那這邊也許是當時的氛圍或是當時的需要改由立法分工由法務部來處理會不會有這個可能性因為訴訟法是司法院\n226952\t236208\t處理的嘛,阿法務部沒辦法啊,法務部拜託,法務部一直等著司法院要修法,然後司法院一直不修法,然後法務部底下的檢察官們\n237602\t240264\t檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查\n262381\t264202\t錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案\n290170\t317936\t這個搜索扣押的這種概念就你卻要另立專法其實我跟你說這一次院版行政院版的科偵法專法裡面的條文我沒有我沒有反對我也蠻支持的但是我今天是對於體力上面為何要另立專法而不是設在刑事訴訟法裡面更何況今天我們很多東西要求的是法官保留那今天有司法院去就刑事訴訟法去修正那不是最好嗎\n319156\t338574\t你今天讓法務部來去定一個東西然後叫你法官來遵守我個人覺得無法想像為什麼要把體力弄成這樣所以我自己在當檢察官的時候我的一個感覺是說你到底司法院在混什麼東西的為什麼不趕快修行這訴訟法然後搞得我們以前GPS都不能用\n339838\t360075\t對阿就是以前常常在用的GPS的話你知道嗎2014年那個海巡署的那個案子就海巡署的人被判拘獄59天那個之後沒有人敢用就國家在偵查犯罪的時候非常的困難因為犯嫌他們他們用最好的車子最好的電腦設備他們因為他們賺很多錢所以他們都買最好的設備就我們的\n364258\t367100\t錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案\n392998\t412245\t那這些年來我也不懂為什麼司法院遲遲不願意就這幾個重點的部分去修法所以我才會說是不是這個原因是不是這個原因因為司法院遲遲不肯修刑訴導致法務部、行政院不得不推這個很奇怪的專法出來\n414083\t434571\t委員我可以回應一下是那也在當時的時空背景是怎麼樣我可能無從得知啦不過我可以推敲的是偵查偵查作為主要是偵查機關在使用他最貼近第一線的偵查人員他對相關的偵查手段的日新月異他的人最快的掌握住\n435111\t436812\t檢查及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案\n463908\t480177\t但是目前來講我覺得可以快速反映偵查機關所需然後做反映說適當的修正因為基本上司法院對相關偵查機關的相關偵查作為的日行願意的相關手段我們的資訊可能比較軟一點聽起來你的想法是這樣但是我的想法是比較是說\n481138\t481839\t錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。\n496914\t519953\t我們會覺得會比較保障一點保障一些啦欸再給我一點時間吼好那還有吼就是更何況這些證據的認定將來有無證據能力或是證據力到哪裡這個也都是法官在認定嗎不是檢察官啊所以這個東西吼我還是覺得我還是對於這個體力去設計由專法來處理我還是有很多的意見吼那因為時間的關係吼\n521434\t545160\t我最後我是希望一個東西啦我想請問一下你們這些獲取的數位資訊請問部長獲取的如果這個法過了獲取的數位資訊你們怎麼監督怎麼管考怎麼讓人民信任你不會拿去做其他的用途我們會對一個會再制定一個定定一個內規的一個一個要點讓這些執行單位那個這個有這個依循\n546872\t556748\t所以目前都還沒有任何...這個法律過了我們會定定一個內控的一個機制所以目前都沒有任何的那個計劃嗎?\n559838\t560719\t檢查及保障法草案案 案。\n583038\t584879\t錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案\n600151\t600911\t錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n626073\t627874\t檢查及保障法草案案件事宜,請審議\n644226\t665076\t我了解啦但是各自籌備處我們也會很怕各自籌備處雖然是中立機關但走到最後會不會跟NCC一樣又被大家罵到臭頭就大家都開始質疑他的中立性這是我擔心的部分啦當然我很希望說制度都很完美不要讓人去濫用制度我的想法只是這樣好謝謝兩位好謝謝吳釗緯謝謝鄭部長謝謝李\n","txt":"好謝謝主席那我們要麻煩部長還有李廳長好請政部長跟李廳長好那個李廳長你好那我想說這邊我先跟部長跟廳長休息一下我先直接破題說我的想法啦就是對於科技偵查其實我從到這邊開始我就是舉雙手贊成一定要趕快\n錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及保障法草案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第3會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第4會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第5會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第6會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第7會期司法及保\n我自己的提案也是認為說應該就刑事訴訟法裡面我們就刑事訴訟法去修法或是另立專章都可以但是實在是我不太認為說應該是用另立專法的方式去處理啦好那我想就教一下那個司法院請問一下那個司法院對於行政院的這個科偵法的這個專法司法院有什麼想法\n檢查及保障法的草擬過程,我們司法院一直都沒有缺席。我們認為用專法來處理也可以適時及時符合偵查機關的需求。\n錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。\n通報的那個通訊監察部分我國從88年就把就是用專法的方式來處理了沒有這我知道啊那個我現在是問你科證法的部分吶那通保法的部分我想說已經20年了我們就不要再討論那個部分因為我一直認為侵害人權的東西其實都要法官保留我一直是這種觀念吶不要說由偵查機關自己去下決定這樣其實對人權保障會更好否則我跟你講\n其實以前搜索權在檢察官那邊的時候當然有一些檢察官他就會濫用嘛那自從到法官之後其實已經規範到很規避掉很多濫用的問題啦但是我一直覺得很奇怪從106年最高法院就已經就已經就判決裡面就要求說有關GPS追蹤器的使用要件他希望要趕快研擬可是這七年過去了到底司法院有做了什麼樣的什麼樣的那個改正然後去正當化這個法律程序呢\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案\n草擬過用專章的方式在刑事訴訟法來修法但是在109年法務部就已經有公佈他的所謂的預告科技偵查法的草案那這邊也許是當時的氛圍或是當時的需要改由立法分工由法務部來處理會不會有這個可能性因為訴訟法是司法院\n處理的嘛,阿法務部沒辦法啊,法務部拜託,法務部一直等著司法院要修法,然後司法院一直不修法,然後法務部底下的檢察官們\n檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查\n錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案\n這個搜索扣押的這種概念就你卻要另立專法其實我跟你說這一次院版行政院版的科偵法專法裡面的條文我沒有我沒有反對我也蠻支持的但是我今天是對於體力上面為何要另立專法而不是設在刑事訴訟法裡面更何況今天我們很多東西要求的是法官保留那今天有司法院去就刑事訴訟法去修正那不是最好嗎\n你今天讓法務部來去定一個東西然後叫你法官來遵守我個人覺得無法想像為什麼要把體力弄成這樣所以我自己在當檢察官的時候我的一個感覺是說你到底司法院在混什麼東西的為什麼不趕快修行這訴訟法然後搞得我們以前GPS都不能用\n對阿就是以前常常在用的GPS的話你知道嗎2014年那個海巡署的那個案子就海巡署的人被判拘獄59天那個之後沒有人敢用就國家在偵查犯罪的時候非常的困難因為犯嫌他們他們用最好的車子最好的電腦設備他們因為他們賺很多錢所以他們都買最好的設備就我們的\n錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案\n那這些年來我也不懂為什麼司法院遲遲不願意就這幾個重點的部分去修法所以我才會說是不是這個原因是不是這個原因因為司法院遲遲不肯修刑訴導致法務部、行政院不得不推這個很奇怪的專法出來\n委員我可以回應一下是那也在當時的時空背景是怎麼樣我可能無從得知啦不過我可以推敲的是偵查偵查作為主要是偵查機關在使用他最貼近第一線的偵查人員他對相關的偵查手段的日新月異他的人最快的掌握住\n檢查及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案\n但是目前來講我覺得可以快速反映偵查機關所需然後做反映說適當的修正因為基本上司法院對相關偵查機關的相關偵查作為的日行願意的相關手段我們的資訊可能比較軟一點聽起來你的想法是這樣但是我的想法是比較是說\n錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。\n我們會覺得會比較保障一點保障一些啦欸再給我一點時間吼好那還有吼就是更何況這些證據的認定將來有無證據能力或是證據力到哪裡這個也都是法官在認定嗎不是檢察官啊所以這個東西吼我還是覺得我還是對於這個體力去設計由專法來處理我還是有很多的意見吼那因為時間的關係吼\n我最後我是希望一個東西啦我想請問一下你們這些獲取的數位資訊請問部長獲取的如果這個法過了獲取的數位資訊你們怎麼監督怎麼管考怎麼讓人民信任你不會拿去做其他的用途我們會對一個會再制定一個定定一個內規的一個一個要點讓這些執行單位那個這個有這個依循\n所以目前都還沒有任何...這個法律過了我們會定定一個內控的一個機制所以目前都沒有任何的那個計劃嗎?\n檢查及保障法草案案 案。\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。\n檢查及保障法草案案件事宜,請審議\n我了解啦但是各自籌備處我們也會很怕各自籌備處雖然是中立機關但走到最後會不會跟NCC一樣又被大家罵到臭頭就大家都開始質疑他的中立性這是我擔心的部分啦當然我很希望說制度都很完美不要讓人去濫用制度我的想法只是這樣好謝謝兩位好謝謝吳釗緯謝謝鄭部長謝謝李\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.725 --> 00:28.156\n好謝謝主席那我們要麻煩部長還有李廳長好請政部長跟李廳長好那個李廳長你好那我想說這邊我先跟部長跟廳長休息一下我先直接破題說我的想法啦就是對於科技偵查其實我從到這邊開始我就是舉雙手贊成一定要趕快\n\n00:28.696 --> 00:43.642\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及保障法草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第2會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第3會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第4會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第5會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第6會期司法及保障法草案案．立法院第7會期司法及保\n\n00:57.208 --> 01:19.260\n我自己的提案也是認為說應該就刑事訴訟法裡面我們就刑事訴訟法去修法或是另立專章都可以但是實在是我不太認為說應該是用另立專法的方式去處理啦好那我想就教一下那個司法院請問一下那個司法院對於行政院的這個科偵法的這個專法司法院有什麼想法\n\n01:21.028 --> 01:34.566\n檢查及保障法的草擬過程,我們司法院一直都沒有缺席。我們認為用專法來處理也可以適時及時符合偵查機關的需求。\n\n01:35.267 --> 01:36.107\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案。\n\n02:04.002 --> 02:32.333\n通報的那個通訊監察部分我國從88年就把就是用專法的方式來處理了沒有這我知道啊那個我現在是問你科證法的部分吶那通保法的部分我想說已經20年了我們就不要再討論那個部分因為我一直認為侵害人權的東西其實都要法官保留我一直是這種觀念吶不要說由偵查機關自己去下決定這樣其實對人權保障會更好否則我跟你講\n\n02:34.025 --> 03:02.779\n其實以前搜索權在檢察官那邊的時候當然有一些檢察官他就會濫用嘛那自從到法官之後其實已經規範到很規避掉很多濫用的問題啦但是我一直覺得很奇怪從106年最高法院就已經就已經就判決裡面就要求說有關GPS追蹤器的使用要件他希望要趕快研擬可是這七年過去了到底司法院有做了什麼樣的什麼樣的那個改正然後去正當化這個法律程序呢\n\n03:03.739 --> 03:05.981\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n\n03:19.383 --> 03:42.501\n草擬過用專章的方式在刑事訴訟法來修法但是在109年法務部就已經有公佈他的所謂的預告科技偵查法的草案那這邊也許是當時的氛圍或是當時的需要改由立法分工由法務部來處理會不會有這個可能性因為訴訟法是司法院\n\n03:46.952 --> 03:56.208\n處理的嘛,阿法務部沒辦法啊,法務部拜託,法務部一直等著司法院要修法,然後司法院一直不修法,然後法務部底下的檢察官們\n\n03:57.602 --> 04:00.264\n檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查\n\n04:22.381 --> 04:24.202\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案\n\n04:50.170 --> 05:17.936\n這個搜索扣押的這種概念就你卻要另立專法其實我跟你說這一次院版行政院版的科偵法專法裡面的條文我沒有我沒有反對我也蠻支持的但是我今天是對於體力上面為何要另立專法而不是設在刑事訴訟法裡面更何況今天我們很多東西要求的是法官保留那今天有司法院去就刑事訴訟法去修正那不是最好嗎\n\n05:19.156 --> 05:38.574\n你今天讓法務部來去定一個東西然後叫你法官來遵守我個人覺得無法想像為什麼要把體力弄成這樣所以我自己在當檢察官的時候我的一個感覺是說你到底司法院在混什麼東西的為什麼不趕快修行這訴訟法然後搞得我們以前GPS都不能用\n\n05:39.838 --> 06:00.075\n對阿就是以前常常在用的GPS的話你知道嗎2014年那個海巡署的那個案子就海巡署的人被判拘獄59天那個之後沒有人敢用就國家在偵查犯罪的時候非常的困難因為犯嫌他們他們用最好的車子最好的電腦設備他們因為他們賺很多錢所以他們都買最好的設備就我們的\n\n06:04.258 --> 06:07.100\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案\n\n06:32.998 --> 06:52.245\n那這些年來我也不懂為什麼司法院遲遲不願意就這幾個重點的部分去修法所以我才會說是不是這個原因是不是這個原因因為司法院遲遲不肯修刑訴導致法務部、行政院不得不推這個很奇怪的專法出來\n\n06:54.083 --> 07:14.571\n委員我可以回應一下是那也在當時的時空背景是怎麼樣我可能無從得知啦不過我可以推敲的是偵查偵查作為主要是偵查機關在使用他最貼近第一線的偵查人員他對相關的偵查手段的日新月異他的人最快的掌握住\n\n07:15.111 --> 07:16.812\n檢查及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n07:43.908 --> 08:00.177\n但是目前來講我覺得可以快速反映偵查機關所需然後做反映說適當的修正因為基本上司法院對相關偵查機關的相關偵查作為的日行願意的相關手段我們的資訊可能比較軟一點聽起來你的想法是這樣但是我的想法是比較是說\n\n08:01.138 --> 08:01.839\n錢防制法及保障法草案案案。\n\n08:16.914 --> 08:39.953\n我們會覺得會比較保障一點保障一些啦欸再給我一點時間吼好那還有吼就是更何況這些證據的認定將來有無證據能力或是證據力到哪裡這個也都是法官在認定嗎不是檢察官啊所以這個東西吼我還是覺得我還是對於這個體力去設計由專法來處理我還是有很多的意見吼那因為時間的關係吼\n\n08:41.434 --> 09:05.160\n我最後我是希望一個東西啦我想請問一下你們這些獲取的數位資訊請問部長獲取的如果這個法過了獲取的數位資訊你們怎麼監督怎麼管考怎麼讓人民信任你不會拿去做其他的用途我們會對一個會再制定一個定定一個內規的一個一個要點讓這些執行單位那個這個有這個依循\n\n09:06.872 --> 09:16.748\n所以目前都還沒有任何...這個法律過了我們會定定一個內控的一個機制所以目前都沒有任何的那個計劃嗎?\n\n09:19.838 --> 09:20.719\n檢查及保障法草案案案。\n\n09:43.038 --> 09:44.879\n錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案\n\n10:00.151 --> 10:00.911\n錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案。\n\n10:26.073 --> 10:27.874\n檢查及保障法草案案件事宜,請審議\n\n10:44.226 --> 11:05.076\n我了解啦但是各自籌備處我們也會很怕各自籌備處雖然是中立機關但走到最後會不會跟NCC一樣又被大家罵到臭頭就大家都開始質疑他的中立性這是我擔心的部分啦當然我很希望說制度都很完美不要讓人去濫用制度我的想法只是這樣好謝謝兩位好謝謝吳釗緯謝謝鄭部長謝謝李\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.725,"end":28.156,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們要麻煩部長還有李廳長好請政部長跟李廳長好那個李廳長你好那我想說這邊我先跟部長跟廳長休息一下我先直接破題說我的想法啦就是對於科技偵查其實我從到這邊開始我就是舉雙手贊成一定要趕快"},{"start":28.696,"end":43.642,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及保障法草案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第3會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第4會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第5會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第6會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第7會期司法及保"},{"start":57.208,"end":79.26,"text":"我自己的提案也是認為說應該就刑事訴訟法裡面我們就刑事訴訟法去修法或是另立專章都可以但是實在是我不太認為說應該是用另立專法的方式去處理啦好那我想就教一下那個司法院請問一下那個司法院對於行政院的這個科偵法的這個專法司法院有什麼想法"},{"start":81.028,"end":94.566,"text":"檢查及保障法的草擬過程,我們司法院一直都沒有缺席。我們認為用專法來處理也可以適時及時符合偵查機關的需求。"},{"start":95.267,"end":96.107,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":124.002,"end":152.333,"text":"通報的那個通訊監察部分我國從88年就把就是用專法的方式來處理了沒有這我知道啊那個我現在是問你科證法的部分吶那通保法的部分我想說已經20年了我們就不要再討論那個部分因為我一直認為侵害人權的東西其實都要法官保留我一直是這種觀念吶不要說由偵查機關自己去下決定這樣其實對人權保障會更好否則我跟你講"},{"start":154.025,"end":182.779,"text":"其實以前搜索權在檢察官那邊的時候當然有一些檢察官他就會濫用嘛那自從到法官之後其實已經規範到很規避掉很多濫用的問題啦但是我一直覺得很奇怪從106年最高法院就已經就已經就判決裡面就要求說有關GPS追蹤器的使用要件他希望要趕快研擬可是這七年過去了到底司法院有做了什麼樣的什麼樣的那個改正然後去正當化這個法律程序呢"},{"start":183.739,"end":185.981,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 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案"},{"start":392.998,"end":412.245,"text":"那這些年來我也不懂為什麼司法院遲遲不願意就這幾個重點的部分去修法所以我才會說是不是這個原因是不是這個原因因為司法院遲遲不肯修刑訴導致法務部、行政院不得不推這個很奇怪的專法出來"},{"start":414.083,"end":434.571,"text":"委員我可以回應一下是那也在當時的時空背景是怎麼樣我可能無從得知啦不過我可以推敲的是偵查偵查作為主要是偵查機關在使用他最貼近第一線的偵查人員他對相關的偵查手段的日新月異他的人最快的掌握住"},{"start":435.111,"end":436.812,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":463.908,"end":480.177,"text":"但是目前來講我覺得可以快速反映偵查機關所需然後做反映說適當的修正因為基本上司法院對相關偵查機關的相關偵查作為的日行願意的相關手段我們的資訊可能比較軟一點聽起來你的想法是這樣但是我的想法是比較是說"},{"start":481.138,"end":481.839,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":496.914,"end":519.953,"text":"我們會覺得會比較保障一點保障一些啦欸再給我一點時間吼好那還有吼就是更何況這些證據的認定將來有無證據能力或是證據力到哪裡這個也都是法官在認定嗎不是檢察官啊所以這個東西吼我還是覺得我還是對於這個體力去設計由專法來處理我還是有很多的意見吼那因為時間的關係吼"},{"start":521.434,"end":545.16,"text":"我最後我是希望一個東西啦我想請問一下你們這些獲取的數位資訊請問部長獲取的如果這個法過了獲取的數位資訊你們怎麼監督怎麼管考怎麼讓人民信任你不會拿去做其他的用途我們會對一個會再制定一個定定一個內規的一個一個要點讓這些執行單位那個這個有這個依循"},{"start":546.872,"end":556.748,"text":"所以目前都還沒有任何...這個法律過了我們會定定一個內控的一個機制所以目前都沒有任何的那個計劃嗎?"},{"start":559.838,"end":560.719,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":583.038,"end":584.879,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":600.151,"end":600.911,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":626.073,"end":627.874,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案件事宜,請審議"},{"start":644.226,"end":665.076,"text":"我了解啦但是各自籌備處我們也會很怕各自籌備處雖然是中立機關但走到最後會不會跟NCC一樣又被大家罵到臭頭就大家都開始質疑他的中立性這是我擔心的部分啦當然我很希望說制度都很完美不要讓人去濫用制度我的想法只是這樣好謝謝兩位好謝謝吳釗緯謝謝鄭部長謝謝李"}]}}}}