{"id":153591,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153591","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98390286f9759ad703155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee62eb4615479df0829c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:47:19 - 09:54:11","影片長度":"00:06:52","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T09:47:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T09:54:11+08:00","duration":412,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時47分）部長，這一次我們要修打詐四法，就是要杜絕詐騙，我想請問一下，這一次的打詐，我們邀集了大概五個跨部會，我們跨部會如何能夠順暢的去協調、去運作？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的垂詢，我們現在推出所謂的打詐四法，以內政部所主導是詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，但是還有包括洗錢防制法，還有科偵法，還有通訊保障監察法，一定要這四個法同時連動，而且把裡面的法條各個環環相扣，全部都扣上去，才能夠解決我們剛剛各位委員所垂詢的，碰到所謂各種不同樣態、新的詐欺犯罪的防制。"],["張委員宏陸：好，我先請問，這次裡面有寫到一定規模的網路廣告平臺業者在臺須設立代理人，並配合防詐義務，違者最高可罰2,500萬，如果情節嚴重會被封網。一定規模，是什麼樣的規模才叫一定規模？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，目前關於一定規模，首先我們會參考歐盟的作法，以人口的10%作為標準，如果一個網路廣告平臺的活躍使用者數目超過10%，歐盟那邊就會開始做控管。但是因為臺灣的人口數比較少，經濟規模也比較小，所以10%我們初步的研判可能是稍微高了一點，我們會在這個地方再訂定出相關的規則，基本上後續等到這部法案通過以後，我們會規定。"],["張委員宏陸：你這樣講讓人家很不放心耶！你直接講一個數數字讓大家瞭解啊！"],["林次長宜敬：OK，以臺灣是2,300萬人的話，人口的10%就是230萬，依照……"],["張委員宏陸：不是啊，剛剛已經說10%你認為太高了啊，你心裡合理的數字是多少？"],["林次長宜敬：抱歉，可以請我們署長代為說明嗎？"],["呂署長正華：謝謝委員讓我們有說明的機會，初步現在是參考歐盟的10%，因為這個法在第二十七條之後會授權……"],["張委員宏陸：不是，你回答我的重點就好了，我沒那麼多時間。"],["呂署長正華：大概就10%上下，但是這個法通過之後，因為6個月內要修子法，它是授權辦法，所以在這一段時間會把它合適的數值確認出來，目前就是先用10%當benchmark，以上補充，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，10%是230萬，都已經……你不覺得這個速度有點慢了嗎，對不對？不是我感覺慢，我認為你這個230萬要全臺灣人都可以接受，我真的不相信，我真的不相信。我為什麼特別問這個你知道嗎？現在的詐騙，打電話的越來越少了，幾乎都是網路比較多，我們如何從一開頭就把它遏止，我相信這是民眾想要的，等到他被騙了，然後再去報案，我覺得那太晚了，應該是把所有有可能的從源頭遏止，是不是？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛！是的話，你看你剛剛說的10%，這樣子你們覺得有沒有太離譜了一點？民眾可以接受嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，因為現在網路的生態，一家網路廣告平臺，它如果開始做起來的話，其實很快就會超過人口10%，像是Meta、像是Google、像是LINE，其實它的活躍會員數早就超過10%了。所以雖然10%看起來好像有點太高，但是現在主要民眾會接觸到的這些網路廣告平臺，其實都已經超過這個數字，這是我們的瞭解。"],["張委員宏陸：是啦！你這樣子反而……我剛剛講了一個重點，你如果發現這根本可能是詐騙了，就應該第一時間把它遏止了，是不是？我們的目標是這樣啊，對不對？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["張委員宏陸：結果你還讓它有成長的機會，我覺得這一點不要說我聽不下去，全臺灣的民眾也不會支持吧？"],["林次長宜敬：是，瞭解委員的意思。其實現在對臺灣政府來講，事實上最難管理的是一些跨國的網路平臺，因為跨國網路平臺，我們比較難去處罰他們。所以……"],["張委員宏陸：我知道啦，所以我今天就是跟你探討這一個問題，你要跟民眾講我們打詐四法要怎樣，結果你現在的回答又讓人家覺得好像很困難，我覺得看不出來政府的決心，我完全看不出來政府的決心。將近一半的民眾民調顯示對詐騙是非常深惡痛絕，而我們政府在這個情況下的打詐四法，在其他很多的法令都越趨嚴格的情況之下，我覺得這一點你應該要把它補起來，不然我跟你講，如果內政部要等到人家報案才可以處理的話，他都已經被騙了，這個跟民眾的期待有點落差啦！反正等下還會討論法條，我覺得這一點你們要想一想如何去處理啦！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們政府是相當有決心啦！但是在法條上面如果有檢討改進的空間，我們會跟其他的部會一起來檢討改進。因為如果我們沒有踏出第一步的話，永遠沒有辦法往打擊犯罪上來著手，而很多牽涉到的法令不同，如果以目前民意來講，願意支持打詐四法趕快通過，讓它可以先上路，其實這才是我們決心要走的第一步。"],["張委員宏陸：我當然知道，但我們就明顯看得出來有一些可以再加強的部分，我們等下再來討論看要怎麼處理，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員。","我們請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"宏\", \"start\": 409.712, \"end\": 409.952, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"祿\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 409.952, \"end\": 409.972, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,469 --> 00:00:22,584\n部長其實這一次我們要修這個打詐治法我們其實就是要杜絕這個詐騙那我想請問一下其實這一次的打詐我們騙集了大概5個跨部會那我們這個跨部會如何能夠去順暢的去協調去運作\n\n2\n00:00:25,890 --> 00:00:51,549\n謝謝委員的垂詢這就是我們現在推出所謂的打詐四法以內政部所主導的話是這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例但是還有包括洗錢防治法還有科偵法還有通訊保障監察法一定要這四個法同時連動而且把裡面的法條各個的環環相扣全部都扣上去的話才能夠解決我們剛剛各位委員所垂詢的碰到所謂的各種不同樣態的新的詐欺犯罪的防制\n\n3\n00:00:53,419 --> 00:01:20,274\n我先請問這個我們這次裡面有寫到說一定規模的網路廣告平台業者在台區設立代理人並配合防詐義務違則最高可罰2500萬如果情節嚴重會被封網一定規模是什麼樣的規模才叫一定規模\n\n4\n00:01:21,394 --> 00:01:49,982\n報告委員目前我們關於一定規模的話基本上我們會首先我們會參考那個歐盟的做法歐盟的做法是人口的10%作為標準那如果一個網路廣告平台他的活躍使用者數目超過10%的話那個歐盟他們那邊就會開始做控管但是因為台灣的人口數比較少經濟規模也比較小所以那個10%我們的初步研判可能是稍微\n\n5\n00:01:51,843 --> 00:02:09,772\n稍微低了一點稍微高了一點然後我們會在這個地方我們會在訂令出相關的規則基本上這會後續等到這部法案通過以後我們會做規定你這樣講很讓人家不放心你直接講一個數字讓大家\n\n6\n00:02:12,754 --> 00:02:16,358\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n7\n00:02:34,782 --> 00:02:34,882\n審查委員\n\n8\n00:02:54,793 --> 00:02:55,133\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n\n9\n00:03:10,779 --> 00:03:11,600\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具\n\n10\n00:03:25,931 --> 00:03:52,054\n我真的不相信我為什麼要特別問這個你知道嗎現在的詐騙打電話的越來越少了啦幾乎都是網路比較多啦那我們如何從一開頭就把它遏止我相信這是民眾想要的啦等到他被騙了然後再去報案我覺得那太晚了啦應該是把所有有可能的從源頭遏止啊是不是應該這樣啊\n\n11\n00:03:54,130 --> 00:04:19,490\n是,報告委員是。是嗎?啊,是的話,如果你說,你看你剛剛說10%這樣子,你們覺得有沒有有點太離譜了一點,民眾可以接受嗎?因為,報告委員,因為現在網路的生態,就是說,那個一家網路廣告平台,它如果說開始做起來的話,其實很快就會超過那個人口的10%,像是Meta,像是Google,像是Line,它其實它的會員數,\n\n12\n00:04:20,771 --> 00:04:26,417\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、\n\n13\n00:04:36,278 --> 00:05:02,297\n這是我們的了解。是啦!那你這樣子反而我剛講一個重點你如果發現了這根本就是可能是詐騙的你就是應該第一時間把他遏止了啊!對不對!是不是我們的目標是這樣啊!對不對!那結果你還讓他有成長的機會我覺得這一點不要說我覺得我聽不下去我覺得全台灣的民眾也不會支持吧!\n\n14\n00:05:03,177 --> 00:05:20,385\n是了解委員的意思那現在其實對我們台灣政府來講最難管理的事實上是一些跨國的網路平台那因為這個跨國網路平台我們沒有比較難去處罰他們所以我知道啦所以我今天就是跟你探討這一個問題\n\n15\n00:05:22,226 --> 00:05:41,457\n你又要跟民眾講說我們打詐釋法要怎樣怎樣結果你現在你今天的現在的回答又讓人家覺得說哇好像很困難啊怎麼樣怎麼樣因為我覺得看不出來政府的決心我完全看不出來政府的決心將近一半的民眾民調顯示出來對這個詐騙是非常痛惡深惡\n\n16\n00:05:46,178 --> 00:06:11,258\n那我們政府在這個情況打詐是法你其他的很多的法令都越趨嚴格的情況之下我覺得這一點啦你應該要把它補起來不然我跟你講啦內政部齁要等到人家報案才可以處理的話我覺得都已經被騙了這個跟民眾的期待有點落差啦我覺得這一點你們應該要齁反正等一下還會討論法條我覺得這一點你們要想想如何去處理啦\n\n17\n00:06:12,954 --> 00:06:37,157\n報告委員我想我們是政府是相當有決心的但是在法條上面的如果有檢討改進的空間的話我們會跟其他的部會一起來檢討改進因為如果我們沒有踏出第一步的話永遠是沒有辦法往這個打擊犯罪的上面著手那很多牽涉到的法令不同如果認為說以目前的民意來講的話願意支持打詐司法趕快通過讓他可以先上路其實這才是我們決心要走的第一步\n\n18\n00:06:38,478 --> 00:06:49,972\n我當然知道啦吼,但我們就明顯看得出來有一些可以再加強的部分,我們等一下再來討論看要怎麼處理啦,好不好。好,謝謝。好,謝謝,感謝張宏祿委員。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n469\t22584\t部長其實這一次我們要修這個打詐治法我們其實就是要杜絕這個詐騙那我想請問一下其實這一次的打詐我們騙集了大概5個跨部會那我們這個跨部會如何能夠去順暢的去協調去運作\n25890\t51549\t謝謝委員的垂詢這就是我們現在推出所謂的打詐四法以內政部所主導的話是這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例但是還有包括洗錢防治法還有科偵法還有通訊保障監察法一定要這四個法同時連動而且把裡面的法條各個的環環相扣全部都扣上去的話才能夠解決我們剛剛各位委員所垂詢的碰到所謂的各種不同樣態的新的詐欺犯罪的防制\n53419\t80274\t我先請問這個我們這次裡面有寫到說一定規模的網路廣告平台業者在台區設立代理人並配合防詐義務違則最高可罰2500萬如果情節嚴重會被封網一定規模是什麼樣的規模才叫一定規模\n81394\t109982\t報告委員目前我們關於一定規模的話基本上我們會首先我們會參考那個歐盟的做法歐盟的做法是人口的10%作為標準那如果一個網路廣告平台他的活躍使用者數目超過10%的話那個歐盟他們那邊就會開始做控管但是因為台灣的人口數比較少經濟規模也比較小所以那個10%我們的初步研判可能是稍微\n111843\t129772\t稍微低了一點稍微高了一點然後我們會在這個地方我們會在訂令出相關的規則基本上這會後續等到這部法案通過以後我們會做規定你這樣講很讓人家不放心你直接講一個數字讓大家\n132754\t136358\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案\n154782\t154882\t審查委員\n174793\t175133\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n190779\t191600\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具\n205931\t232054\t我真的不相信我為什麼要特別問這個你知道嗎現在的詐騙打電話的越來越少了啦幾乎都是網路比較多啦那我們如何從一開頭就把它遏止我相信這是民眾想要的啦等到他被騙了然後再去報案我覺得那太晚了啦應該是把所有有可能的從源頭遏止啊是不是應該這樣啊\n234130\t259490\t是,報告委員是。是嗎?啊,是的話,如果你說,你看你剛剛說10%這樣子,你們覺得有沒有有點太離譜了一點,民眾可以接受嗎?因為,報告委員,因為現在網路的生態,就是說,那個一家網路廣告平台,它如果說開始做起來的話,其實很快就會超過那個人口的10%,像是Meta,像是Google,像是Line,它其實它的會員數,\n260771\t266417\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、\n276278\t302297\t這是我們的了解。是啦!那你這樣子反而我剛講一個重點你如果發現了這根本就是可能是詐騙的你就是應該第一時間把他遏止了啊!對不對!是不是我們的目標是這樣啊!對不對!那結果你還讓他有成長的機會我覺得這一點不要說我覺得我聽不下去我覺得全台灣的民眾也不會支持吧!\n303177\t320385\t是 了解委員的意思那現在其實對我們台灣政府來講最難管理的事實上是一些跨國的網路平台那因為這個跨國網路平台我們沒有比較難去處罰他們所以我知道啦所以我今天就是跟你探討這一個問題\n322226\t341457\t你又要跟民眾講說我們打詐釋法要怎樣怎樣結果你現在你今天的現在的回答又讓人家覺得說哇好像很困難啊怎麼樣怎麼樣因為我覺得看不出來政府的決心我完全看不出來政府的決心將近一半的民眾民調顯示出來對這個詐騙是非常痛惡深惡\n346178\t371258\t那我們政府在這個情況打詐是法你其他的很多的法令都越趨嚴格的情況之下我覺得這一點啦你應該要把它補起來不然我跟你講啦內政部齁要等到人家報案才可以處理的話我覺得都已經被騙了這個跟民眾的期待有點落差啦我覺得這一點你們應該要齁反正等一下還會討論法條我覺得這一點你們要想想如何去處理啦\n372954\t397157\t報告委員我想我們是政府是相當有決心的但是在法條上面的如果有檢討改進的空間的話我們會跟其他的部會一起來檢討改進因為如果我們沒有踏出第一步的話永遠是沒有辦法往這個打擊犯罪的上面著手那很多牽涉到的法令不同如果認為說以目前的民意來講的話願意支持打詐司法趕快通過讓他可以先上路其實這才是我們決心要走的第一步\n398478\t409972\t我當然知道啦吼,但我們就明顯看得出來有一些可以再加強的部分,我們等一下再來討論看要怎麼處理啦,好不好。好,謝謝。好,謝謝,感謝張宏祿委員。\n","txt":"部長其實這一次我們要修這個打詐治法我們其實就是要杜絕這個詐騙那我想請問一下其實這一次的打詐我們騙集了大概5個跨部會那我們這個跨部會如何能夠去順暢的去協調去運作\n謝謝委員的垂詢這就是我們現在推出所謂的打詐四法以內政部所主導的話是這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例但是還有包括洗錢防治法還有科偵法還有通訊保障監察法一定要這四個法同時連動而且把裡面的法條各個的環環相扣全部都扣上去的話才能夠解決我們剛剛各位委員所垂詢的碰到所謂的各種不同樣態的新的詐欺犯罪的防制\n我先請問這個我們這次裡面有寫到說一定規模的網路廣告平台業者在台區設立代理人並配合防詐義務違則最高可罰2500萬如果情節嚴重會被封網一定規模是什麼樣的規模才叫一定規模\n報告委員目前我們關於一定規模的話基本上我們會首先我們會參考那個歐盟的做法歐盟的做法是人口的10%作為標準那如果一個網路廣告平台他的活躍使用者數目超過10%的話那個歐盟他們那邊就會開始做控管但是因為台灣的人口數比較少經濟規模也比較小所以那個10%我們的初步研判可能是稍微\n稍微低了一點稍微高了一點然後我們會在這個地方我們會在訂令出相關的規則基本上這會後續等到這部法案通過以後我們會做規定你這樣講很讓人家不放心你直接講一個數字讓大家\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案\n審查委員\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具\n我真的不相信我為什麼要特別問這個你知道嗎現在的詐騙打電話的越來越少了啦幾乎都是網路比較多啦那我們如何從一開頭就把它遏止我相信這是民眾想要的啦等到他被騙了然後再去報案我覺得那太晚了啦應該是把所有有可能的從源頭遏止啊是不是應該這樣啊\n是,報告委員是。是嗎?啊,是的話,如果你說,你看你剛剛說10%這樣子,你們覺得有沒有有點太離譜了一點,民眾可以接受嗎?因為,報告委員,因為現在網路的生態,就是說,那個一家網路廣告平台,它如果說開始做起來的話,其實很快就會超過那個人口的10%,像是Meta,像是Google,像是Line,它其實它的會員數,\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、\n這是我們的了解。是啦!那你這樣子反而我剛講一個重點你如果發現了這根本就是可能是詐騙的你就是應該第一時間把他遏止了啊!對不對!是不是我們的目標是這樣啊!對不對!那結果你還讓他有成長的機會我覺得這一點不要說我覺得我聽不下去我覺得全台灣的民眾也不會支持吧!\n是 了解委員的意思那現在其實對我們台灣政府來講最難管理的事實上是一些跨國的網路平台那因為這個跨國網路平台我們沒有比較難去處罰他們所以我知道啦所以我今天就是跟你探討這一個問題\n你又要跟民眾講說我們打詐釋法要怎樣怎樣結果你現在你今天的現在的回答又讓人家覺得說哇好像很困難啊怎麼樣怎麼樣因為我覺得看不出來政府的決心我完全看不出來政府的決心將近一半的民眾民調顯示出來對這個詐騙是非常痛惡深惡\n那我們政府在這個情況打詐是法你其他的很多的法令都越趨嚴格的情況之下我覺得這一點啦你應該要把它補起來不然我跟你講啦內政部齁要等到人家報案才可以處理的話我覺得都已經被騙了這個跟民眾的期待有點落差啦我覺得這一點你們應該要齁反正等一下還會討論法條我覺得這一點你們要想想如何去處理啦\n報告委員我想我們是政府是相當有決心的但是在法條上面的如果有檢討改進的空間的話我們會跟其他的部會一起來檢討改進因為如果我們沒有踏出第一步的話永遠是沒有辦法往這個打擊犯罪的上面著手那很多牽涉到的法令不同如果認為說以目前的民意來講的話願意支持打詐司法趕快通過讓他可以先上路其實這才是我們決心要走的第一步\n我當然知道啦吼,但我們就明顯看得出來有一些可以再加強的部分,我們等一下再來討論看要怎麼處理啦,好不好。好,謝謝。好,謝謝,感謝張宏祿委員。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.469 --> 00:22.584\n部長其實這一次我們要修這個打詐治法我們其實就是要杜絕這個詐騙那我想請問一下其實這一次的打詐我們騙集了大概5個跨部會那我們這個跨部會如何能夠去順暢的去協調去運作\n\n00:25.890 --> 00:51.549\n謝謝委員的垂詢這就是我們現在推出所謂的打詐四法以內政部所主導的話是這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例但是還有包括洗錢防治法還有科偵法還有通訊保障監察法一定要這四個法同時連動而且把裡面的法條各個的環環相扣全部都扣上去的話才能夠解決我們剛剛各位委員所垂詢的碰到所謂的各種不同樣態的新的詐欺犯罪的防制\n\n00:53.419 --> 01:20.274\n我先請問這個我們這次裡面有寫到說一定規模的網路廣告平台業者在台區設立代理人並配合防詐義務違則最高可罰2500萬如果情節嚴重會被封網一定規模是什麼樣的規模才叫一定規模\n\n01:21.394 --> 01:49.982\n報告委員目前我們關於一定規模的話基本上我們會首先我們會參考那個歐盟的做法歐盟的做法是人口的10%作為標準那如果一個網路廣告平台他的活躍使用者數目超過10%的話那個歐盟他們那邊就會開始做控管但是因為台灣的人口數比較少經濟規模也比較小所以那個10%我們的初步研判可能是稍微\n\n01:51.843 --> 02:09.772\n稍微低了一點稍微高了一點然後我們會在這個地方我們會在訂令出相關的規則基本上這會後續等到這部法案通過以後我們會做規定你這樣講很讓人家不放心你直接講一個數字讓大家\n\n02:12.754 --> 02:16.358\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案\n\n02:34.782 --> 02:34.882\n審查委員\n\n02:54.793 --> 02:55.133\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n\n03:10.779 --> 03:11.600\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具\n\n03:25.931 --> 03:52.054\n我真的不相信我為什麼要特別問這個你知道嗎現在的詐騙打電話的越來越少了啦幾乎都是網路比較多啦那我們如何從一開頭就把它遏止我相信這是民眾想要的啦等到他被騙了然後再去報案我覺得那太晚了啦應該是把所有有可能的從源頭遏止啊是不是應該這樣啊\n\n03:54.130 --> 04:19.490\n是,報告委員是。是嗎?啊,是的話,如果你說,你看你剛剛說10%這樣子,你們覺得有沒有有點太離譜了一點,民眾可以接受嗎?因為,報告委員,因為現在網路的生態,就是說,那個一家網路廣告平台,它如果說開始做起來的話,其實很快就會超過那個人口的10%,像是Meta,像是Google,像是Line,它其實它的會員數,\n\n04:20.771 --> 04:26.417\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、\n\n04:36.278 --> 05:02.297\n這是我們的了解。是啦!那你這樣子反而我剛講一個重點你如果發現了這根本就是可能是詐騙的你就是應該第一時間把他遏止了啊!對不對!是不是我們的目標是這樣啊!對不對!那結果你還讓他有成長的機會我覺得這一點不要說我覺得我聽不下去我覺得全台灣的民眾也不會支持吧!\n\n05:03.177 --> 05:20.385\n是了解委員的意思那現在其實對我們台灣政府來講最難管理的事實上是一些跨國的網路平台那因為這個跨國網路平台我們沒有比較難去處罰他們所以我知道啦所以我今天就是跟你探討這一個問題\n\n05:22.226 --> 05:41.457\n你又要跟民眾講說我們打詐釋法要怎樣怎樣結果你現在你今天的現在的回答又讓人家覺得說哇好像很困難啊怎麼樣怎麼樣因為我覺得看不出來政府的決心我完全看不出來政府的決心將近一半的民眾民調顯示出來對這個詐騙是非常痛惡深惡\n\n05:46.178 --> 06:11.258\n那我們政府在這個情況打詐是法你其他的很多的法令都越趨嚴格的情況之下我覺得這一點啦你應該要把它補起來不然我跟你講啦內政部齁要等到人家報案才可以處理的話我覺得都已經被騙了這個跟民眾的期待有點落差啦我覺得這一點你們應該要齁反正等一下還會討論法條我覺得這一點你們要想想如何去處理啦\n\n06:12.954 --> 06:37.157\n報告委員我想我們是政府是相當有決心的但是在法條上面的如果有檢討改進的空間的話我們會跟其他的部會一起來檢討改進因為如果我們沒有踏出第一步的話永遠是沒有辦法往這個打擊犯罪的上面著手那很多牽涉到的法令不同如果認為說以目前的民意來講的話願意支持打詐司法趕快通過讓他可以先上路其實這才是我們決心要走的第一步\n\n06:38.478 --> 06:49.972\n我當然知道啦吼,但我們就明顯看得出來有一些可以再加強的部分,我們等一下再來討論看要怎麼處理啦,好不好。好,謝謝。好,謝謝,感謝張宏祿委員。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.469,"end":22.584,"text":"部長其實這一次我們要修這個打詐治法我們其實就是要杜絕這個詐騙那我想請問一下其實這一次的打詐我們騙集了大概5個跨部會那我們這個跨部會如何能夠去順暢的去協調去運作"},{"start":25.89,"end":51.549,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢這就是我們現在推出所謂的打詐四法以內政部所主導的話是這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例但是還有包括洗錢防治法還有科偵法還有通訊保障監察法一定要這四個法同時連動而且把裡面的法條各個的環環相扣全部都扣上去的話才能夠解決我們剛剛各位委員所垂詢的碰到所謂的各種不同樣態的新的詐欺犯罪的防制"},{"start":53.419,"end":80.274,"text":"我先請問這個我們這次裡面有寫到說一定規模的網路廣告平台業者在台區設立代理人並配合防詐義務違則最高可罰2500萬如果情節嚴重會被封網一定規模是什麼樣的規模才叫一定規模"},{"start":81.394,"end":109.982,"text":"報告委員目前我們關於一定規模的話基本上我們會首先我們會參考那個歐盟的做法歐盟的做法是人口的10%作為標準那如果一個網路廣告平台他的活躍使用者數目超過10%的話那個歐盟他們那邊就會開始做控管但是因為台灣的人口數比較少經濟規模也比較小所以那個10%我們的初步研判可能是稍微"},{"start":111.843,"end":129.772,"text":"稍微低了一點稍微高了一點然後我們會在這個地方我們會在訂令出相關的規則基本上這會後續等到這部法案通過以後我們會做規定你這樣講很讓人家不放心你直接講一個數字讓大家"},{"start":132.754,"end":136.358,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":154.782,"end":154.882,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":174.793,"end":175.133,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":190.779,"end":191.6,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":205.931,"end":232.054,"text":"我真的不相信我為什麼要特別問這個你知道嗎現在的詐騙打電話的越來越少了啦幾乎都是網路比較多啦那我們如何從一開頭就把它遏止我相信這是民眾想要的啦等到他被騙了然後再去報案我覺得那太晚了啦應該是把所有有可能的從源頭遏止啊是不是應該這樣啊"},{"start":234.13,"end":259.49,"text":"是,報告委員是。是嗎?啊,是的話,如果你說,你看你剛剛說10%這樣子,你們覺得有沒有有點太離譜了一點,民眾可以接受嗎?因為,報告委員,因為現在網路的生態,就是說,那個一家網路廣告平台,它如果說開始做起來的話,其實很快就會超過那個人口的10%,像是Meta,像是Google,像是Line,它其實它的會員數,"},{"start":260.771,"end":266.417,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":276.278,"end":302.297,"text":"這是我們的了解。是啦!那你這樣子反而我剛講一個重點你如果發現了這根本就是可能是詐騙的你就是應該第一時間把他遏止了啊!對不對!是不是我們的目標是這樣啊!對不對!那結果你還讓他有成長的機會我覺得這一點不要說我覺得我聽不下去我覺得全台灣的民眾也不會支持吧!"},{"start":303.177,"end":320.385,"text":"是 了解委員的意思那現在其實對我們台灣政府來講最難管理的事實上是一些跨國的網路平台那因為這個跨國網路平台我們沒有比較難去處罰他們所以我知道啦所以我今天就是跟你探討這一個問題"},{"start":322.226,"end":341.457,"text":"你又要跟民眾講說我們打詐釋法要怎樣怎樣結果你現在你今天的現在的回答又讓人家覺得說哇好像很困難啊怎麼樣怎麼樣因為我覺得看不出來政府的決心我完全看不出來政府的決心將近一半的民眾民調顯示出來對這個詐騙是非常痛惡深惡"},{"start":346.178,"end":371.258,"text":"那我們政府在這個情況打詐是法你其他的很多的法令都越趨嚴格的情況之下我覺得這一點啦你應該要把它補起來不然我跟你講啦內政部齁要等到人家報案才可以處理的話我覺得都已經被騙了這個跟民眾的期待有點落差啦我覺得這一點你們應該要齁反正等一下還會討論法條我覺得這一點你們要想想如何去處理啦"},{"start":372.954,"end":397.157,"text":"報告委員我想我們是政府是相當有決心的但是在法條上面的如果有檢討改進的空間的話我們會跟其他的部會一起來檢討改進因為如果我們沒有踏出第一步的話永遠是沒有辦法往這個打擊犯罪的上面著手那很多牽涉到的法令不同如果認為說以目前的民意來講的話願意支持打詐司法趕快通過讓他可以先上路其實這才是我們決心要走的第一步"},{"start":398.478,"end":409.972,"text":"我當然知道啦吼,但我們就明顯看得出來有一些可以再加強的部分,我們等一下再來討論看要怎麼處理啦,好不好。好,謝謝。好,謝謝,感謝張宏祿委員。"}]}}}}