{"id":153600,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98d750081ddd24e2e4155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee62ed139ae0a6a6f6e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:57:25 - 11:07:48","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:57:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:07:48+08:00","duration":623,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":847,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時57分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。是不是有請部長？"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：部長好。部長，今天我們在討論的就是有關於詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，我覺得這非常的重要，現在全臺灣國人都認為詐騙的案件層出不窮，不只是金額增加，而且對這些有詐騙犯行的人所規定的刑責好像比較低，今天很多的委員都有提出來，可是本席現在要討論的是關於資安的問題，這是現在我們內政委員會一個比較重要、大家在關心的點，就是數位身分證，我們現在有一個專案調閱小組在做查核的動作。我先跟部長報告，109年10月在時任行政院長的賴清德主政之下，行政院通過要換發數位身分證，也就是New eID，可是在時隔3個月以後，在110年由蘇貞昌院長宣布暫緩發放，請問部長知道數位身分證當時停止、暫緩啟動的原因嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告張委員，在當時停止的時候，其實我也是立法委員，在那時候4個黨都同意，停止最主要的原因就是我們數位身分證的資安或是個資在法律上面的法令不足的關係，如果貿然就推動的話，恐怕會造成譬如說身分證裡面的個資外洩或是資安的問題，那會造成更大的詐騙的來源。"],["張委員智倫：好，非常感謝部長，因為部長當時也是非常的專業，所以我相信部長在這個部分應該是非常的用心。本席要跟部長報告，其實數位身分證當時的概念就是因為要維護資安，然後讓人民的數位身分資料可以再進一步，數位身分證當時的用意很單純，只是要把我們現在一般人用的身分證加上自然人憑證，把它併在一起，其實它是用意良善的。我想要請教部長，當時在數位身分證剛開始啟用的時候，先在3個地方試辦，就是新北、澎湖以及新竹市，可是後來這3個地區都反對。部長，我認為中央在做數位身分證的試辦時溝通不足，你認為這個部分誰應該承擔責任？"],["劉部長世芳：我想跟委員報告一下，我剛剛有提到，在立法院是每個黨、每個黨團都同意要暫緩，3個縣市政府當時同意試辦，後來沒有試辦，主要的原因在於，我想張委員非常知道，我們的身分證是採取你在什麼地方都可以移入、移出、遷入、遷出，所以它沒有辦法受限在某一個縣市政府，也就是說，如果現在是新竹市試辦，但是我是新竹縣的人，新竹縣還是用紙本身分證，新竹市是用數位身分證，這樣會產生在民政系統上面，或是戶政系統，或是相關其他身分證用的時候很大的困擾，所以用這樣試辦的方式，其實不是一個太好的試辦措施，所以後來也就停止不再試辦。"],["張委員智倫：我先請教部長，你是支持數位身分證繼續重啟、繼續來做嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想不能完全這樣講，到目前為止，我認為它的法源跟法令的基礎還是不夠，譬如說個資，還有包括數位發展部，因為它是一個新興的部會，它相關的譬如說T-Road也好，或者是機構跟機構之間，包括公務機關，是不是也必須要有一個授權才可以？如果以往是採取行政授權的話，法令是不足的，因為如果發生狀況，誰要負責？不可能說公務員記個過就好了，這反而會造成受害的機會比較大。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。我個人認為我們數位身分證（eID）的部分，第一個，一定要維護資安的安全。"],["劉部長世芳：完全同意。"],["張委員智倫：所以我當時有跟部長報告，第一個，我認為是溝通不足，當然還有資安的問題，整個預算總經費是48億，而且現在依照我們許宇甄委員跟審計部的資料，已經花了14億，這都是人民的納稅錢，而且每年還要再花6,375萬做維護的部分，我最不能接受的就是行政院當時有一個院會──3736次院會，當時最主要說要停止數位身分證的原因是兩個，第一個就是資安的問題，可是它特別提到因為大陸會攻擊我們的這個eID系統，所以就變成資安的問題會有疑慮，所以請問部長，這個院會作出認為大陸會造成我們資安問題的原因是為何？第二個是有關於相關法令的配套，是否已經有開始做修法的動作？如果都沒有、還沒有、有些有修、有些還沒修，就針對一些我們比較重視的，比如說個人資料保護法，還有戶籍法及資通安全管理法，這些部分我們行政院到底有沒有要來修？不然的話，這些東西、這個數位身分證一定會石沉大海，請部長是不是……"],["劉部長世芳：我覺得需要從長計議，因為委員所提到的3個法律分別散在不同部會，目前3個不同部會可能都還沒有共識，如果我們內部的部會沒有共識就貿然啟動的話，我想後面的資安問題還是相當的大，也就是說，我們必須在審慎評估之後才能做決定。"],["張委員智倫：好，最後因為時間的關係，我想要播一段影片給部長看，因為我們現在在數位身分證調查小組裡面，我們希望，第一個，要重視我們內政委員會所有委員大家一個調閱的權力，可是我發現我們在調閱的時候，我覺得本委會的委員非常可憐，我們來看一下，我發現很多的資料不透明、不明確，從第一頁到最後一頁，全部都反黑，請部長看一下。","我想我們都希望大家的數位身分證可以更讓民眾知道，推行數位身分證，政府從102年開始，是一個立意良善，只要資安能夠維護，大家能夠去瞭解，可以大家一起來幫政府去做一個說明的動作，我們的調閱小組，現在召委也非常的重視，想不到給調閱小組的資料居然從第一頁到最後一頁，完全都是反黑的，我私下有跟我們辛苦的內政部戶政司的同仁聊到，他說，他們在反黑這些資料的時候，他們都覺得非常的無言啦！蔣萬安市長當時在調疫苗資料的時候，只有隱藏部分的資料，現在是從第一頁到最後一頁，全部都反黑。再開另外一個檔案，另外一個檔案有嗎？結果後來內部的同仁跟我講，全部反黑好像就是刻意不要讓我們立法委員去看，之後我們所有行政官員太累了，後來有一本，我這邊手上有資料，全部就只印目錄，所以請問部長，你能接受這樣的調閱小組嗎？這樣的調閱小組，你們內政部提供給調閱小組的資料，從第一頁到最後一頁全部反黑，不僅浪費紙，而且一點意義都沒有。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，內政部所提供的資料，大概就是根據政府資訊公開法跟個資法，我們都依照規定來辦理。"],["張委員智倫：部長，其實我有跟你們內部討論了，所以我希望這個調閱小組……而且我想我們召委、主席，大家都非常重視啦！我相信這是史無前例，第一次從第一頁到最後一頁，一千多頁全部都反黑，所以我相信是不是你們在內部溝通的部分有出現了什麼樣的狀況？最後還是拜託，關於數位身分證，第一個，未來還有沒有大陸這個資安的疑慮？你們要去做一個解釋的動作，不然數位身分證是完全無法重啟。第二個就是我們相關的法令配套，從當時109年的時候，當時的行政院長、現在的總統賴清德通過了以後，現在已經是113年了，這幾年內政部、行政院有沒有想要修相關的法令？如果沒有的話，數位身分證要如何重啟？第三個，請部長協助，要重視我們內政委員會調查委員會職權行使的一個權力，不能說從第一頁到最後一頁，全部都反黑，第一個是浪費紙，而且內部人員在施行的時候也覺得很無言，到最後直接就只有印目錄，我覺得這樣是非常沒有意義的，而且我覺得國人也沒辦法接受，所以請部長協助，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，剛剛委員有特別提到要不要重啟新式身分證的部分，國安疑慮確實是我們現在所碰到最大的困擾，它必須修的法真的是像剛剛委員所提到的，不只3個法，還有其他的相關措施，因為國安疑慮真的是非常的大。第二個，還是一樣，我剛剛有特別提到，內政委員會的調閱小組所要提供的資料，站在內政部的立場，就是按照我們政府資訊公開法跟個人資料保護法的規定來辦理。"],["張委員智倫：部長，其實我沒有要你回答這一塊，所以你認同他從第一頁到最後一頁、一千多頁都是反黑嗎？如果你當委員的時候，你看到這樣的資料，你能同意嗎？所以部長，我沒有要你回答，可是這一點我希望你可以好好去改善啦！因為這樣子我相信我們內政委員會的委員都沒有辦法去接受啦！而且你之前也是當過立法委員，我希望大家應該互相尊重，好不好？部長，這部分再拜託你，我們希望讓內政委員會的委員能有一個更公開、透明，大家去瞭解，而且一起來推動政府最重視的資安問題，也跟今天的主題──打詐、防詐騙一樣是非常重要，好嗎？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，下一位是丁學忠委員，丁學忠委員質詢完就休息5分鐘，剛才已經宣布了，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"153600","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153600","tool":"pyannote","id":"153600-pyannote"},"job_id":"6ehjlFMWj9UfGe5w","queued_at":"2024-06-05 11:31:47","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-06-05 11:31:49","msg":"downloading 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{\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 554.509, \"end\": 555.189, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"擾\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 555.189, \"end\": 555.289, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 555.289, \"end\": 555.429, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 555.429, \"end\": 555.67, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 555.67, \"end\": 555.83, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 555.83, \"end\": 556.03, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 556.03, \"end\": 556.17, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 556.17, \"end\": 556.37, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 556.37, \"end\": 556.49, \"score\": 0.718}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 556.49, \"end\": 556.611, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 556.611, \"end\": 556.771, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 556.771, \"end\": 557.291, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 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00:01:12,248\n在值得這個行政院長賴清德的主政之下,行政院通過這個換發數位身份證,就是NEID,可是在時隔3個月以後,在110年由蘇貞昌院長宣布暫緩發放。請問部長你知道說這個數位身份證當時這個停止暫緩啟動的原因嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:18,014 --> 00:01:38,392\n報告張委員當時停止的時候其實我也是立法委員大概那個時候的四個黨都同意最主要的原因就是我們數位身份證在資安或是個資還有法律上面的法令不足的關係如果貿然就推動的話恐怕會造成譬如說身份證裡面的個資外洩或是資安的問題會造成更大的詐騙的來源\n\n6\n00:01:42,796 --> 00:02:00,983\n非常感謝部長,因為部長當時也是非常的專業,所以我相信部長在這一部分應該是非常的用心。那本席要跟部長報告就是說,其實數位身份證當時的概念就是因為要維護治安,然後要人民的這個數位的這個身份資料可以再進一步。\n\n7\n00:02:01,403 --> 00:02:21,820\n但數位身份證當時的用意很單純只是要把身份證我們現在一般人用的身份證加上自然能憑證把它併在一起其實它是用意良善的那我想要請教部長的是說當時在這個數位身份證剛開始啟用的時候它有先有三個地方先做市營運是新北澎湖以及是新竹市可是後來這三個地區都反對\n\n8\n00:02:23,641 --> 00:02:27,851\n所以部長我認為這邊是在中央在做這個輸入身分證的這個試營運的時候溝通的不足你認為這個部分誰應該承擔責任?\n\n9\n00:02:34,148 --> 00:02:58,605\n我想跟委員報告一下我剛有提到了在立法院是每個黨每個黨團都同意要暫緩那三個縣市政府當時要同意事辦那後來沒有事辦我想主要的原因在於說我想張委員非常知道我們身份證是採取你在什麼地方都可以移入移出遷入遷出所以他沒有辦法受限在某一個縣市政府\n\n10\n00:03:02,108 --> 00:03:21,066\n新竹市用紙本身份證,新竹市用數位身份證,這樣會產生在民政系統上或是戶政系統或是相關的其他身份證用的時候很大的困擾,所以用這樣示範的方式其實不是一個太好的示範的措施,所以後來也就停止不再示範。\n\n11\n00:03:22,233 --> 00:03:48,591\n所以我先請教部長,所以部長你是支持這個數位身份證繼續重啟,繼續來做嗎?我想不能完全這樣講,目前為止我認為它的法源跟法令的基礎還是不夠,譬如說個資,還有包括數位發展部,因為它是一個新興的部會,它相關的這個譬如說TRO也好,或者是在機構跟機構之間,是不是也必須要,包括公務機關,是不是也必須要有一個授權才可以。\n\n12\n00:03:49,251 --> 00:04:09,164\n以往是採取行政授權的話法令是不足的因為如果發生狀況誰要負責你不能說公務員記個過就好了這個會反而造成受害的機會比較大所以我個人認為就是我們的數位身份證EID的部分第一個一定要維護資安的安全所以我當時跟部長報告第一個我認為就是溝通的不足\n\n13\n00:04:09,784 --> 00:04:35,531\n那當然還有治安的問題那整個預算其實總經費是48億而且現在依照我們徐宇貞委員跟審計部的這個資料已經花了14億這都是人民的納稅錢而且每年還要再花6,375萬做維護的部分所以我這不能接受就是行政院當時有一個這個院會3736院會他當時最主要說要停止輸的身份證原因是兩個\n\n14\n00:04:36,471 --> 00:04:51,383\n第一個就是說資安的問題可是他特別提到的是因為大陸會攻擊我們的這個EID系統所以就變成資安的問題會有疑慮所以請部長問說到底這個院會做出任何大陸會造成我們資安問題的原因是為何第二個\n\n15\n00:04:51,883 --> 00:05:15,764\n是有關於相當相關的法律的配套是否已經有已經有開始做修法的這個動作如果都沒有還沒有有些有修有些還沒修就針對一些我們比較重視的比如說個人資料保護法還有戶籍法及這個資通安全管理法這些部分到底我們行政院有沒有要來修不然的話這些東西有這個數位身份證一定會石沉大海請部長是不是\n\n16\n00:05:16,244 --> 00:05:35,522\n我覺得需要從長計議因為委員所提到的三個法律分別擅在不同的部會目前可能三個不同的部會都還沒有共識如果我們內部的部會沒有共識的話貿然就啟動我想後面的資安問題還是相當的大也就是說我們必須要在審慎的評估之後才能做決定\n\n17\n00:05:36,377 --> 00:05:55,645\n好,最後是時間的關係,我想要播一段影片給部長看。因為我們現在在數位身份證調查小組裡面,我們希望說第一個要重視我們內政委員會所有的委員,大家一個這個調閱的權利啦。可是我發現這個我們在調閱的時候,我覺得我們本委會的委員非常的可憐。\n\n18\n00:05:57,561 --> 00:06:09,430\n來我們看一下我發現就是說很多的資料不透明、不明確從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑請部長看一下\n\n19\n00:06:12,984 --> 00:06:39,115\n我想說我們都希望大家的數位身份證可以更讓民眾知道說推行數位身份證從政府102年開始是一個利益良善只要資安能夠維護那大家能夠去了解可以大家一起來幫政府來去做一個說明的動作想不到我們調閱小組現在招委也非常的重視調閱小組裡面給的資料居然從第一頁到最後一頁完全都是反黑的\n\n20\n00:06:39,835 --> 00:07:00,954\n那我私下有跟我們辛苦的這個內政部副縣市的同仁聊到他說他們在這個反黑這些資料的時候他們都覺得非常的無言啊這個比我相信蔣安安市長當時在調這個疫苗的時候只有隱藏部分的資料現在是從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑結果我再開另外一個檔案\n\n21\n00:07:02,674 --> 00:07:23,191\n有另外答案有嗎?結果後來我們這個內部的同仁跟我講因為就是因為宣誤反黑就是不要讓我們好像就是有刻意不要讓我們立法院來去看所以之後我們所有行政官員太累了後來有一本我這邊手上有資料全部都指令目錄所以請問部長你能接受這樣的第二個小組嗎?\n\n22\n00:07:24,532 --> 00:07:38,827\n這樣第二小組你們這個內政部提供的第二小組的資料全部第一頁到最後一頁反黑不僅浪費值啊而且一點意義都沒有報告委員那內政部所提供的資料大概就是根據政府資訊公開法跟個資法我們都依照規定來辦理\n\n23\n00:07:40,748 --> 00:08:05,173\n所以部長其實我有跟你們內部討論了啦所以我希望是說這個第二小組而且我想這個我們召委主席大家都非常重視啦所以我相信這是史無前例喔從第一次喔從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁全部都反黑啊所以我相信是不是你們在內部溝通的部分有出現了什麼樣的狀況齁所以所以在最後還是拜託就是數位身份證\n\n24\n00:08:05,993 --> 00:08:22,756\n第1個就是說大陸未來還有沒有大陸這個治安的疑慮第一個你們要來去做一個來做一個解釋的一個動作不然說身份證是完全無法重啟第二個就是說我們相關的法令配套從當時一百\n\n25\n00:08:24,657 --> 00:08:50,029\n109年的時候行政院長當了行政院長現在總統賴清德通過了以後現在已經是113年了這幾年我們內政部、行政院有沒有想要修相關的法律如果沒有的話輸入身份證要如何重啟那第三個請部長協助要重視我們這個內政委員會、調查委員會來做職權行使的一個權利不能說從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑\n\n26\n00:08:52,004 --> 00:09:06,281\n這個看到這個那位子啊因為他們這個內部人員在施行的時候也覺得很無言到最後直接是只有一目錄所以我覺得這個是非常大家從功沒有意義的而且這真的讓大家我覺得國人沒辦法接受所以請部長協助可以嗎\n\n27\n00:09:06,821 --> 00:09:22,957\n是,剛剛委員特別提到就是說要不要重啟這個新式身份證的部分的話國安一律確實是我們現在所碰到最大的困擾那它必須要修的法真的是像剛剛委員所提到的不只三個法還有其他的相關的這個措施因為國安一律真的是非常的大\n\n28\n00:09:23,337 --> 00:09:43,556\n那第二個還是一樣我剛有特別提到說我們這個內政委會的這個調閱小組所要提供的資料的話站在內政部的立場就是按照我們政府資訊公開法跟個人資訊公開法的規定來管理。所以部長其實我們要你回答這一塊所以你認同這個他從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁都是反黑嗎?沒有你當委員的時候你看到這樣的資料你能同意嗎?\n\n29\n00:09:44,588 --> 00:10:13,317\n所以部長我沒有讓你回答可是因為這點我是希望你可以好好去去改善啦因為這樣子我相信對我們內政委員會的委員都沒有辦法去接受啦而且你之前也是當過立法委員我需要說大家應該互相尊重好不好那部長這部分再拜託你我們需要說讓這個內政委員會的委員喔都一個一個可以更公開透明大家去了解而且一起來推動這個政府最重視的資安的問題也跟今天的主題這個打詐防詐騙是非常重要的好嗎部長\n\n30\n00:10:13,757 --> 00:10:23,640\n二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n289\t4616\t好,謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員,大家早。是邀請部長。\n11764\t29458\t政委員吾好部長吾好部長今天我們在討論的就是有關於詐欺犯罪的這個遇害防治法我覺得這非常重要那所以我覺得現在全台灣國人都認為這個詐騙的案件層數不窮不只是金額增加而且是說這些詐騙的人\n30919\t41404\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、\n56411\t72248\t在值得這個行政院長賴清德的主政之下,行政院通過這個換發數位身份證,就是NEID,可是在時隔3個月以後,在110年由蘇貞昌院長宣布暫緩發放。請問部長你知道說這個數位身份證當時這個停止暫緩啟動的原因嗎?\n78014\t98392\t報告張委員當時停止的時候其實我也是立法委員大概那個時候的四個黨都同意最主要的原因就是我們數位身份證在資安或是個資還有法律上面的法令不足的關係如果貿然就推動的話恐怕會造成譬如說身份證裡面的個資外洩或是資安的問題會造成更大的詐騙的來源\n102796\t120983\t非常感謝部長,因為部長當時也是非常的專業,所以我相信部長在這一部分應該是非常的用心。那本席要跟部長報告就是說,其實數位身份證當時的概念就是因為要維護治安,然後要人民的這個數位的這個身份資料可以再進一步。\n121403\t141820\t但數位身份證當時的用意很單純只是要把身份證我們現在一般人用的身份證加上自然能憑證把它併在一起其實它是用意良善的那我想要請教部長的是說當時在這個數位身份證剛開始啟用的時候它有先有三個地方先做市營運是新北澎湖以及是新竹市可是後來這三個地區都反對\n143641\t147851\t所以部長我認為這邊是在中央在做這個輸入身分證的這個試營運的時候溝通的不足你認為這個部分誰應該承擔責任?\n154148\t178605\t我想跟委員報告一下我剛有提到了在立法院是每個黨每個黨團都同意要暫緩那三個縣市政府當時要同意事辦那後來沒有事辦我想主要的原因在於說我想張委員非常知道我們身份證是採取你在什麼地方都可以移入移出遷入遷出所以他沒有辦法受限在某一個縣市政府\n182108\t201066\t新竹市用紙本身份證,新竹市用數位身份證,這樣會產生在民政系統上或是戶政系統或是相關的其他身份證用的時候很大的困擾,所以用這樣示範的方式其實不是一個太好的示範的措施,所以後來也就停止不再示範。\n202233\t228591\t所以我先請教部長,所以部長你是支持這個數位身份證繼續重啟,繼續來做嗎?我想不能完全這樣講,目前為止我認為它的法源跟法令的基礎還是不夠,譬如說個資,還有包括數位發展部,因為它是一個新興的部會,它相關的這個譬如說TRO也好,或者是在機構跟機構之間,是不是也必須要,包括公務機關,是不是也必須要有一個授權才可以。\n229251\t249164\t以往是採取行政授權的話法令是不足的因為如果發生狀況誰要負責你不能說公務員記個過就好了這個會反而造成受害的機會比較大所以我個人認為就是我們的數位身份證EID的部分第一個一定要維護資安的安全所以我當時跟部長報告第一個我認為就是溝通的不足\n249784\t275531\t那當然還有治安的問題那整個預算其實總經費是48億而且現在依照我們徐宇貞委員跟審計部的這個資料已經花了14億這都是人民的納稅錢而且每年還要再花6,375萬做維護的部分所以我這不能接受就是行政院當時有一個這個院會3736院會他當時最主要說要停止輸的身份證原因是兩個\n276471\t291383\t第一個就是說資安的問題可是他特別提到的是因為大陸會攻擊我們的這個EID系統所以就變成資安的問題會有疑慮所以請部長問說到底這個院會做出任何大陸會造成我們資安問題的原因是為何第二個\n291883\t315764\t是有關於相當相關的法律的配套是否已經有已經有開始做修法的這個動作如果都沒有還沒有有些有修有些還沒修就針對一些我們比較重視的比如說個人資料保護法還有戶籍法及這個資通安全管理法這些部分到底我們行政院有沒有要來修不然的話這些東西有這個數位身份證一定會石沉大海請部長是不是\n316244\t335522\t我覺得需要從長計議因為委員所提到的三個法律分別擅在不同的部會目前可能三個不同的部會都還沒有共識如果我們內部的部會沒有共識的話貿然就啟動我想後面的資安問題還是相當的大也就是說我們必須要在審慎的評估之後才能做決定\n336377\t355645\t好,最後是時間的關係,我想要播一段影片給部長看。因為我們現在在數位身份證調查小組裡面,我們希望說第一個要重視我們內政委員會所有的委員,大家一個這個調閱的權利啦。可是我發現這個我們在調閱的時候,我覺得我們本委會的委員非常的可憐。\n357561\t369430\t來我們看一下我發現就是說很多的資料不透明、不明確從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑請部長看一下\n372984\t399115\t我想說我們都希望大家的數位身份證可以更讓民眾知道說推行數位身份證從政府102年開始是一個利益良善只要資安能夠維護那大家能夠去了解可以大家一起來幫政府來去做一個說明的動作想不到我們調閱小組現在招委也非常的重視調閱小組裡面給的資料居然從第一頁到最後一頁完全都是反黑的\n399835\t420954\t那我私下有跟我們辛苦的這個內政部副縣市的同仁聊到他說他們在這個反黑這些資料的時候他們都覺得非常的無言啊這個比我相信蔣安安市長當時在調這個疫苗的時候只有隱藏部分的資料現在是從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑結果我再開另外一個檔案\n422674\t443191\t有另外答案有嗎?結果後來我們這個內部的同仁跟我講因為就是因為宣誤反黑就是不要讓我們好像就是有刻意不要讓我們立法院來去看所以之後我們所有行政官員太累了後來有一本我這邊手上有資料全部都指令目錄所以請問部長你能接受這樣的第二個小組嗎?\n444532\t458827\t這樣第二小組你們這個內政部提供的第二小組的資料全部第一頁到最後一頁反黑不僅浪費值啊而且一點意義都沒有報告委員那內政部所提供的資料大概就是根據政府資訊公開法跟個資法我們都依照規定來辦理\n460748\t485173\t所以部長其實我有跟你們內部討論了啦所以我希望是說這個第二小組而且我想這個我們召委主席大家都非常重視啦所以我相信這是史無前例喔從第一次喔從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁全部都反黑啊所以我相信是不是你們在內部溝通的部分有出現了什麼樣的狀況齁所以所以在最後還是拜託就是數位身份證\n485993\t502756\t第1個就是說大陸未來還有沒有大陸這個治安的疑慮第一個你們要來去做一個來做一個解釋的一個動作不然說身份證是完全無法重啟第二個就是說我們相關的法令配套從當時一百\n504657\t530029\t109年的時候行政院長當了行政院長現在總統賴清德通過了以後現在已經是113年了這幾年我們內政部、行政院有沒有想要修相關的法律如果沒有的話輸入身份證要如何重啟那第三個請部長協助要重視我們這個內政委員會、調查委員會來做職權行使的一個權利不能說從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑\n532004\t546281\t這個看到這個那位子啊因為他們這個內部人員在施行的時候也覺得很無言到最後直接是只有一目錄所以我覺得這個是非常大家從功沒有意義的而且這真的讓大家我覺得國人沒辦法接受所以請部長協助可以嗎\n546821\t562957\t是,剛剛委員特別提到就是說要不要重啟這個新式身份證的部分的話國安一律確實是我們現在所碰到最大的困擾那它必須要修的法真的是像剛剛委員所提到的不只三個法還有其他的相關的這個措施因為國安一律真的是非常的大\n563337\t583556\t那第二個還是一樣我剛有特別提到說我們這個內政委會的這個調閱小組所要提供的資料的話站在內政部的立場就是按照我們政府資訊公開法跟個人資訊公開法的規定來管理。所以部長其實我們要你回答這一塊所以你認同這個他從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁都是反黑嗎?沒有你當委員的時候你看到這樣的資料你能同意嗎?\n584588\t613317\t所以部長我沒有讓你回答可是因為這點我是希望你可以好好去去改善啦因為這樣子我相信對我們內政委員會的委員都沒有辦法去接受啦而且你之前也是當過立法委員我需要說大家應該互相尊重好不好那部長這部分再拜託你我們需要說讓這個內政委員會的委員喔都一個一個可以更公開透明大家去了解而且一起來推動這個政府最重視的資安的問題也跟今天的主題這個打詐防詐騙是非常重要的好嗎部長\n613757\t623640\t二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員,大家早。是邀請部長。\n政委員吾好部長吾好部長今天我們在討論的就是有關於詐欺犯罪的這個遇害防治法我覺得這非常重要那所以我覺得現在全台灣國人都認為這個詐騙的案件層數不窮不只是金額增加而且是說這些詐騙的人\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、\n在值得這個行政院長賴清德的主政之下,行政院通過這個換發數位身份證,就是NEID,可是在時隔3個月以後,在110年由蘇貞昌院長宣布暫緩發放。請問部長你知道說這個數位身份證當時這個停止暫緩啟動的原因嗎?\n報告張委員當時停止的時候其實我也是立法委員大概那個時候的四個黨都同意最主要的原因就是我們數位身份證在資安或是個資還有法律上面的法令不足的關係如果貿然就推動的話恐怕會造成譬如說身份證裡面的個資外洩或是資安的問題會造成更大的詐騙的來源\n非常感謝部長,因為部長當時也是非常的專業,所以我相信部長在這一部分應該是非常的用心。那本席要跟部長報告就是說,其實數位身份證當時的概念就是因為要維護治安,然後要人民的這個數位的這個身份資料可以再進一步。\n但數位身份證當時的用意很單純只是要把身份證我們現在一般人用的身份證加上自然能憑證把它併在一起其實它是用意良善的那我想要請教部長的是說當時在這個數位身份證剛開始啟用的時候它有先有三個地方先做市營運是新北澎湖以及是新竹市可是後來這三個地區都反對\n所以部長我認為這邊是在中央在做這個輸入身分證的這個試營運的時候溝通的不足你認為這個部分誰應該承擔責任?\n我想跟委員報告一下我剛有提到了在立法院是每個黨每個黨團都同意要暫緩那三個縣市政府當時要同意事辦那後來沒有事辦我想主要的原因在於說我想張委員非常知道我們身份證是採取你在什麼地方都可以移入移出遷入遷出所以他沒有辦法受限在某一個縣市政府\n新竹市用紙本身份證,新竹市用數位身份證,這樣會產生在民政系統上或是戶政系統或是相關的其他身份證用的時候很大的困擾,所以用這樣示範的方式其實不是一個太好的示範的措施,所以後來也就停止不再示範。\n所以我先請教部長,所以部長你是支持這個數位身份證繼續重啟,繼續來做嗎?我想不能完全這樣講,目前為止我認為它的法源跟法令的基礎還是不夠,譬如說個資,還有包括數位發展部,因為它是一個新興的部會,它相關的這個譬如說TRO也好,或者是在機構跟機構之間,是不是也必須要,包括公務機關,是不是也必須要有一個授權才可以。\n以往是採取行政授權的話法令是不足的因為如果發生狀況誰要負責你不能說公務員記個過就好了這個會反而造成受害的機會比較大所以我個人認為就是我們的數位身份證EID的部分第一個一定要維護資安的安全所以我當時跟部長報告第一個我認為就是溝通的不足\n那當然還有治安的問題那整個預算其實總經費是48億而且現在依照我們徐宇貞委員跟審計部的這個資料已經花了14億這都是人民的納稅錢而且每年還要再花6,375萬做維護的部分所以我這不能接受就是行政院當時有一個這個院會3736院會他當時最主要說要停止輸的身份證原因是兩個\n第一個就是說資安的問題可是他特別提到的是因為大陸會攻擊我們的這個EID系統所以就變成資安的問題會有疑慮所以請部長問說到底這個院會做出任何大陸會造成我們資安問題的原因是為何第二個\n是有關於相當相關的法律的配套是否已經有已經有開始做修法的這個動作如果都沒有還沒有有些有修有些還沒修就針對一些我們比較重視的比如說個人資料保護法還有戶籍法及這個資通安全管理法這些部分到底我們行政院有沒有要來修不然的話這些東西有這個數位身份證一定會石沉大海請部長是不是\n我覺得需要從長計議因為委員所提到的三個法律分別擅在不同的部會目前可能三個不同的部會都還沒有共識如果我們內部的部會沒有共識的話貿然就啟動我想後面的資安問題還是相當的大也就是說我們必須要在審慎的評估之後才能做決定\n好,最後是時間的關係,我想要播一段影片給部長看。因為我們現在在數位身份證調查小組裡面,我們希望說第一個要重視我們內政委員會所有的委員,大家一個這個調閱的權利啦。可是我發現這個我們在調閱的時候,我覺得我們本委會的委員非常的可憐。\n來我們看一下我發現就是說很多的資料不透明、不明確從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑請部長看一下\n我想說我們都希望大家的數位身份證可以更讓民眾知道說推行數位身份證從政府102年開始是一個利益良善只要資安能夠維護那大家能夠去了解可以大家一起來幫政府來去做一個說明的動作想不到我們調閱小組現在招委也非常的重視調閱小組裡面給的資料居然從第一頁到最後一頁完全都是反黑的\n那我私下有跟我們辛苦的這個內政部副縣市的同仁聊到他說他們在這個反黑這些資料的時候他們都覺得非常的無言啊這個比我相信蔣安安市長當時在調這個疫苗的時候只有隱藏部分的資料現在是從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑結果我再開另外一個檔案\n有另外答案有嗎?結果後來我們這個內部的同仁跟我講因為就是因為宣誤反黑就是不要讓我們好像就是有刻意不要讓我們立法院來去看所以之後我們所有行政官員太累了後來有一本我這邊手上有資料全部都指令目錄所以請問部長你能接受這樣的第二個小組嗎?\n這樣第二小組你們這個內政部提供的第二小組的資料全部第一頁到最後一頁反黑不僅浪費值啊而且一點意義都沒有報告委員那內政部所提供的資料大概就是根據政府資訊公開法跟個資法我們都依照規定來辦理\n所以部長其實我有跟你們內部討論了啦所以我希望是說這個第二小組而且我想這個我們召委主席大家都非常重視啦所以我相信這是史無前例喔從第一次喔從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁全部都反黑啊所以我相信是不是你們在內部溝通的部分有出現了什麼樣的狀況齁所以所以在最後還是拜託就是數位身份證\n第1個就是說大陸未來還有沒有大陸這個治安的疑慮第一個你們要來去做一個來做一個解釋的一個動作不然說身份證是完全無法重啟第二個就是說我們相關的法令配套從當時一百\n109年的時候行政院長當了行政院長現在總統賴清德通過了以後現在已經是113年了這幾年我們內政部、行政院有沒有想要修相關的法律如果沒有的話輸入身份證要如何重啟那第三個請部長協助要重視我們這個內政委員會、調查委員會來做職權行使的一個權利不能說從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑\n這個看到這個那位子啊因為他們這個內部人員在施行的時候也覺得很無言到最後直接是只有一目錄所以我覺得這個是非常大家從功沒有意義的而且這真的讓大家我覺得國人沒辦法接受所以請部長協助可以嗎\n是,剛剛委員特別提到就是說要不要重啟這個新式身份證的部分的話國安一律確實是我們現在所碰到最大的困擾那它必須要修的法真的是像剛剛委員所提到的不只三個法還有其他的相關的這個措施因為國安一律真的是非常的大\n那第二個還是一樣我剛有特別提到說我們這個內政委會的這個調閱小組所要提供的資料的話站在內政部的立場就是按照我們政府資訊公開法跟個人資訊公開法的規定來管理。所以部長其實我們要你回答這一塊所以你認同這個他從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁都是反黑嗎?沒有你當委員的時候你看到這樣的資料你能同意嗎?\n所以部長我沒有讓你回答可是因為這點我是希望你可以好好去去改善啦因為這樣子我相信對我們內政委員會的委員都沒有辦法去接受啦而且你之前也是當過立法委員我需要說大家應該互相尊重好不好那部長這部分再拜託你我們需要說讓這個內政委員會的委員喔都一個一個可以更公開透明大家去了解而且一起來推動這個政府最重視的資安的問題也跟今天的主題這個打詐防詐騙是非常重要的好嗎部長\n二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.289 --> 00:04.616\n好,謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員,大家早。是邀請部長。\n\n00:11.764 --> 00:29.458\n政委員吾好部長吾好部長今天我們在討論的就是有關於詐欺犯罪的這個遇害防治法我覺得這非常重要那所以我覺得現在全台灣國人都認為這個詐騙的案件層數不窮不只是金額增加而且是說這些詐騙的人\n\n00:30.919 --> 00:41.404\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、\n\n00:56.411 --> 01:12.248\n在值得這個行政院長賴清德的主政之下,行政院通過這個換發數位身份證,就是NEID,可是在時隔3個月以後,在110年由蘇貞昌院長宣布暫緩發放。請問部長你知道說這個數位身份證當時這個停止暫緩啟動的原因嗎?\n\n01:18.014 --> 01:38.392\n報告張委員當時停止的時候其實我也是立法委員大概那個時候的四個黨都同意最主要的原因就是我們數位身份證在資安或是個資還有法律上面的法令不足的關係如果貿然就推動的話恐怕會造成譬如說身份證裡面的個資外洩或是資安的問題會造成更大的詐騙的來源\n\n01:42.796 --> 02:00.983\n非常感謝部長,因為部長當時也是非常的專業,所以我相信部長在這一部分應該是非常的用心。那本席要跟部長報告就是說,其實數位身份證當時的概念就是因為要維護治安,然後要人民的這個數位的這個身份資料可以再進一步。\n\n02:01.403 --> 02:21.820\n但數位身份證當時的用意很單純只是要把身份證我們現在一般人用的身份證加上自然能憑證把它併在一起其實它是用意良善的那我想要請教部長的是說當時在這個數位身份證剛開始啟用的時候它有先有三個地方先做市營運是新北澎湖以及是新竹市可是後來這三個地區都反對\n\n02:23.641 --> 02:27.851\n所以部長我認為這邊是在中央在做這個輸入身分證的這個試營運的時候溝通的不足你認為這個部分誰應該承擔責任?\n\n02:34.148 --> 02:58.605\n我想跟委員報告一下我剛有提到了在立法院是每個黨每個黨團都同意要暫緩那三個縣市政府當時要同意事辦那後來沒有事辦我想主要的原因在於說我想張委員非常知道我們身份證是採取你在什麼地方都可以移入移出遷入遷出所以他沒有辦法受限在某一個縣市政府\n\n03:02.108 --> 03:21.066\n新竹市用紙本身份證,新竹市用數位身份證,這樣會產生在民政系統上或是戶政系統或是相關的其他身份證用的時候很大的困擾,所以用這樣示範的方式其實不是一個太好的示範的措施,所以後來也就停止不再示範。\n\n03:22.233 --> 03:48.591\n所以我先請教部長,所以部長你是支持這個數位身份證繼續重啟,繼續來做嗎?我想不能完全這樣講,目前為止我認為它的法源跟法令的基礎還是不夠,譬如說個資,還有包括數位發展部,因為它是一個新興的部會,它相關的這個譬如說TRO也好,或者是在機構跟機構之間,是不是也必須要,包括公務機關,是不是也必須要有一個授權才可以。\n\n03:49.251 --> 04:09.164\n以往是採取行政授權的話法令是不足的因為如果發生狀況誰要負責你不能說公務員記個過就好了這個會反而造成受害的機會比較大所以我個人認為就是我們的數位身份證EID的部分第一個一定要維護資安的安全所以我當時跟部長報告第一個我認為就是溝通的不足\n\n04:09.784 --> 04:35.531\n那當然還有治安的問題那整個預算其實總經費是48億而且現在依照我們徐宇貞委員跟審計部的這個資料已經花了14億這都是人民的納稅錢而且每年還要再花6,375萬做維護的部分所以我這不能接受就是行政院當時有一個這個院會3736院會他當時最主要說要停止輸的身份證原因是兩個\n\n04:36.471 --> 04:51.383\n第一個就是說資安的問題可是他特別提到的是因為大陸會攻擊我們的這個EID系統所以就變成資安的問題會有疑慮所以請部長問說到底這個院會做出任何大陸會造成我們資安問題的原因是為何第二個\n\n04:51.883 --> 05:15.764\n是有關於相當相關的法律的配套是否已經有已經有開始做修法的這個動作如果都沒有還沒有有些有修有些還沒修就針對一些我們比較重視的比如說個人資料保護法還有戶籍法及這個資通安全管理法這些部分到底我們行政院有沒有要來修不然的話這些東西有這個數位身份證一定會石沉大海請部長是不是\n\n05:16.244 --> 05:35.522\n我覺得需要從長計議因為委員所提到的三個法律分別擅在不同的部會目前可能三個不同的部會都還沒有共識如果我們內部的部會沒有共識的話貿然就啟動我想後面的資安問題還是相當的大也就是說我們必須要在審慎的評估之後才能做決定\n\n05:36.377 --> 05:55.645\n好,最後是時間的關係,我想要播一段影片給部長看。因為我們現在在數位身份證調查小組裡面,我們希望說第一個要重視我們內政委員會所有的委員,大家一個這個調閱的權利啦。可是我發現這個我們在調閱的時候,我覺得我們本委會的委員非常的可憐。\n\n05:57.561 --> 06:09.430\n來我們看一下我發現就是說很多的資料不透明、不明確從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑請部長看一下\n\n06:12.984 --> 06:39.115\n我想說我們都希望大家的數位身份證可以更讓民眾知道說推行數位身份證從政府102年開始是一個利益良善只要資安能夠維護那大家能夠去了解可以大家一起來幫政府來去做一個說明的動作想不到我們調閱小組現在招委也非常的重視調閱小組裡面給的資料居然從第一頁到最後一頁完全都是反黑的\n\n06:39.835 --> 07:00.954\n那我私下有跟我們辛苦的這個內政部副縣市的同仁聊到他說他們在這個反黑這些資料的時候他們都覺得非常的無言啊這個比我相信蔣安安市長當時在調這個疫苗的時候只有隱藏部分的資料現在是從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑結果我再開另外一個檔案\n\n07:02.674 --> 07:23.191\n有另外答案有嗎?結果後來我們這個內部的同仁跟我講因為就是因為宣誤反黑就是不要讓我們好像就是有刻意不要讓我們立法院來去看所以之後我們所有行政官員太累了後來有一本我這邊手上有資料全部都指令目錄所以請問部長你能接受這樣的第二個小組嗎?\n\n07:24.532 --> 07:38.827\n這樣第二小組你們這個內政部提供的第二小組的資料全部第一頁到最後一頁反黑不僅浪費值啊而且一點意義都沒有報告委員那內政部所提供的資料大概就是根據政府資訊公開法跟個資法我們都依照規定來辦理\n\n07:40.748 --> 08:05.173\n所以部長其實我有跟你們內部討論了啦所以我希望是說這個第二小組而且我想這個我們召委主席大家都非常重視啦所以我相信這是史無前例喔從第一次喔從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁全部都反黑啊所以我相信是不是你們在內部溝通的部分有出現了什麼樣的狀況齁所以所以在最後還是拜託就是數位身份證\n\n08:05.993 --> 08:22.756\n第1個就是說大陸未來還有沒有大陸這個治安的疑慮第一個你們要來去做一個來做一個解釋的一個動作不然說身份證是完全無法重啟第二個就是說我們相關的法令配套從當時一百\n\n08:24.657 --> 08:50.029\n109年的時候行政院長當了行政院長現在總統賴清德通過了以後現在已經是113年了這幾年我們內政部、行政院有沒有想要修相關的法律如果沒有的話輸入身份證要如何重啟那第三個請部長協助要重視我們這個內政委員會、調查委員會來做職權行使的一個權利不能說從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑\n\n08:52.004 --> 09:06.281\n這個看到這個那位子啊因為他們這個內部人員在施行的時候也覺得很無言到最後直接是只有一目錄所以我覺得這個是非常大家從功沒有意義的而且這真的讓大家我覺得國人沒辦法接受所以請部長協助可以嗎\n\n09:06.821 --> 09:22.957\n是,剛剛委員特別提到就是說要不要重啟這個新式身份證的部分的話國安一律確實是我們現在所碰到最大的困擾那它必須要修的法真的是像剛剛委員所提到的不只三個法還有其他的相關的這個措施因為國安一律真的是非常的大\n\n09:23.337 --> 09:43.556\n那第二個還是一樣我剛有特別提到說我們這個內政委會的這個調閱小組所要提供的資料的話站在內政部的立場就是按照我們政府資訊公開法跟個人資訊公開法的規定來管理。所以部長其實我們要你回答這一塊所以你認同這個他從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁都是反黑嗎?沒有你當委員的時候你看到這樣的資料你能同意嗎?\n\n09:44.588 --> 10:13.317\n所以部長我沒有讓你回答可是因為這點我是希望你可以好好去去改善啦因為這樣子我相信對我們內政委員會的委員都沒有辦法去接受啦而且你之前也是當過立法委員我需要說大家應該互相尊重好不好那部長這部分再拜託你我們需要說讓這個內政委員會的委員喔都一個一個可以更公開透明大家去了解而且一起來推動這個政府最重視的資安的問題也跟今天的主題這個打詐防詐騙是非常重要的好嗎部長\n\n10:13.757 --> 10:23.640\n二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.289,"end":4.616,"text":"好,謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員,大家早。是邀請部長。"},{"start":11.764,"end":29.458,"text":"政委員吾好部長吾好部長今天我們在討論的就是有關於詐欺犯罪的這個遇害防治法我覺得這非常重要那所以我覺得現在全台灣國人都認為這個詐騙的案件層數不窮不只是金額增加而且是說這些詐騙的人"},{"start":30.919,"end":41.404,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":56.411,"end":72.248,"text":"在值得這個行政院長賴清德的主政之下,行政院通過這個換發數位身份證,就是NEID,可是在時隔3個月以後,在110年由蘇貞昌院長宣布暫緩發放。請問部長你知道說這個數位身份證當時這個停止暫緩啟動的原因嗎?"},{"start":78.014,"end":98.392,"text":"報告張委員當時停止的時候其實我也是立法委員大概那個時候的四個黨都同意最主要的原因就是我們數位身份證在資安或是個資還有法律上面的法令不足的關係如果貿然就推動的話恐怕會造成譬如說身份證裡面的個資外洩或是資安的問題會造成更大的詐騙的來源"},{"start":102.796,"end":120.983,"text":"非常感謝部長,因為部長當時也是非常的專業,所以我相信部長在這一部分應該是非常的用心。那本席要跟部長報告就是說,其實數位身份證當時的概念就是因為要維護治安,然後要人民的這個數位的這個身份資料可以再進一步。"},{"start":121.403,"end":141.82,"text":"但數位身份證當時的用意很單純只是要把身份證我們現在一般人用的身份證加上自然能憑證把它併在一起其實它是用意良善的那我想要請教部長的是說當時在這個數位身份證剛開始啟用的時候它有先有三個地方先做市營運是新北澎湖以及是新竹市可是後來這三個地區都反對"},{"start":143.641,"end":147.851,"text":"所以部長我認為這邊是在中央在做這個輸入身分證的這個試營運的時候溝通的不足你認為這個部分誰應該承擔責任?"},{"start":154.148,"end":178.605,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我剛有提到了在立法院是每個黨每個黨團都同意要暫緩那三個縣市政府當時要同意事辦那後來沒有事辦我想主要的原因在於說我想張委員非常知道我們身份證是採取你在什麼地方都可以移入移出遷入遷出所以他沒有辦法受限在某一個縣市政府"},{"start":182.108,"end":201.066,"text":"新竹市用紙本身份證,新竹市用數位身份證,這樣會產生在民政系統上或是戶政系統或是相關的其他身份證用的時候很大的困擾,所以用這樣示範的方式其實不是一個太好的示範的措施,所以後來也就停止不再示範。"},{"start":202.233,"end":228.591,"text":"所以我先請教部長,所以部長你是支持這個數位身份證繼續重啟,繼續來做嗎?我想不能完全這樣講,目前為止我認為它的法源跟法令的基礎還是不夠,譬如說個資,還有包括數位發展部,因為它是一個新興的部會,它相關的這個譬如說TRO也好,或者是在機構跟機構之間,是不是也必須要,包括公務機關,是不是也必須要有一個授權才可以。"},{"start":229.251,"end":249.164,"text":"以往是採取行政授權的話法令是不足的因為如果發生狀況誰要負責你不能說公務員記個過就好了這個會反而造成受害的機會比較大所以我個人認為就是我們的數位身份證EID的部分第一個一定要維護資安的安全所以我當時跟部長報告第一個我認為就是溝通的不足"},{"start":249.784,"end":275.531,"text":"那當然還有治安的問題那整個預算其實總經費是48億而且現在依照我們徐宇貞委員跟審計部的這個資料已經花了14億這都是人民的納稅錢而且每年還要再花6,375萬做維護的部分所以我這不能接受就是行政院當時有一個這個院會3736院會他當時最主要說要停止輸的身份證原因是兩個"},{"start":276.471,"end":291.383,"text":"第一個就是說資安的問題可是他特別提到的是因為大陸會攻擊我們的這個EID系統所以就變成資安的問題會有疑慮所以請部長問說到底這個院會做出任何大陸會造成我們資安問題的原因是為何第二個"},{"start":291.883,"end":315.764,"text":"是有關於相當相關的法律的配套是否已經有已經有開始做修法的這個動作如果都沒有還沒有有些有修有些還沒修就針對一些我們比較重視的比如說個人資料保護法還有戶籍法及這個資通安全管理法這些部分到底我們行政院有沒有要來修不然的話這些東西有這個數位身份證一定會石沉大海請部長是不是"},{"start":316.244,"end":335.522,"text":"我覺得需要從長計議因為委員所提到的三個法律分別擅在不同的部會目前可能三個不同的部會都還沒有共識如果我們內部的部會沒有共識的話貿然就啟動我想後面的資安問題還是相當的大也就是說我們必須要在審慎的評估之後才能做決定"},{"start":336.377,"end":355.645,"text":"好,最後是時間的關係,我想要播一段影片給部長看。因為我們現在在數位身份證調查小組裡面,我們希望說第一個要重視我們內政委員會所有的委員,大家一個這個調閱的權利啦。可是我發現這個我們在調閱的時候,我覺得我們本委會的委員非常的可憐。"},{"start":357.561,"end":369.43,"text":"來我們看一下我發現就是說很多的資料不透明、不明確從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑請部長看一下"},{"start":372.984,"end":399.115,"text":"我想說我們都希望大家的數位身份證可以更讓民眾知道說推行數位身份證從政府102年開始是一個利益良善只要資安能夠維護那大家能夠去了解可以大家一起來幫政府來去做一個說明的動作想不到我們調閱小組現在招委也非常的重視調閱小組裡面給的資料居然從第一頁到最後一頁完全都是反黑的"},{"start":399.835,"end":420.954,"text":"那我私下有跟我們辛苦的這個內政部副縣市的同仁聊到他說他們在這個反黑這些資料的時候他們都覺得非常的無言啊這個比我相信蔣安安市長當時在調這個疫苗的時候只有隱藏部分的資料現在是從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑結果我再開另外一個檔案"},{"start":422.674,"end":443.191,"text":"有另外答案有嗎?結果後來我們這個內部的同仁跟我講因為就是因為宣誤反黑就是不要讓我們好像就是有刻意不要讓我們立法院來去看所以之後我們所有行政官員太累了後來有一本我這邊手上有資料全部都指令目錄所以請問部長你能接受這樣的第二個小組嗎?"},{"start":444.532,"end":458.827,"text":"這樣第二小組你們這個內政部提供的第二小組的資料全部第一頁到最後一頁反黑不僅浪費值啊而且一點意義都沒有報告委員那內政部所提供的資料大概就是根據政府資訊公開法跟個資法我們都依照規定來辦理"},{"start":460.748,"end":485.173,"text":"所以部長其實我有跟你們內部討論了啦所以我希望是說這個第二小組而且我想這個我們召委主席大家都非常重視啦所以我相信這是史無前例喔從第一次喔從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁全部都反黑啊所以我相信是不是你們在內部溝通的部分有出現了什麼樣的狀況齁所以所以在最後還是拜託就是數位身份證"},{"start":485.993,"end":502.756,"text":"第1個就是說大陸未來還有沒有大陸這個治安的疑慮第一個你們要來去做一個來做一個解釋的一個動作不然說身份證是完全無法重啟第二個就是說我們相關的法令配套從當時一百"},{"start":504.657,"end":530.029,"text":"109年的時候行政院長當了行政院長現在總統賴清德通過了以後現在已經是113年了這幾年我們內政部、行政院有沒有想要修相關的法律如果沒有的話輸入身份證要如何重啟那第三個請部長協助要重視我們這個內政委員會、調查委員會來做職權行使的一個權利不能說從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑"},{"start":532.004,"end":546.281,"text":"這個看到這個那位子啊因為他們這個內部人員在施行的時候也覺得很無言到最後直接是只有一目錄所以我覺得這個是非常大家從功沒有意義的而且這真的讓大家我覺得國人沒辦法接受所以請部長協助可以嗎"},{"start":546.821,"end":562.957,"text":"是,剛剛委員特別提到就是說要不要重啟這個新式身份證的部分的話國安一律確實是我們現在所碰到最大的困擾那它必須要修的法真的是像剛剛委員所提到的不只三個法還有其他的相關的這個措施因為國安一律真的是非常的大"},{"start":563.337,"end":583.556,"text":"那第二個還是一樣我剛有特別提到說我們這個內政委會的這個調閱小組所要提供的資料的話站在內政部的立場就是按照我們政府資訊公開法跟個人資訊公開法的規定來管理。所以部長其實我們要你回答這一塊所以你認同這個他從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁都是反黑嗎?沒有你當委員的時候你看到這樣的資料你能同意嗎?"},{"start":584.588,"end":613.317,"text":"所以部長我沒有讓你回答可是因為這點我是希望你可以好好去去改善啦因為這樣子我相信對我們內政委員會的委員都沒有辦法去接受啦而且你之前也是當過立法委員我需要說大家應該互相尊重好不好那部長這部分再拜託你我們需要說讓這個內政委員會的委員喔都一個一個可以更公開透明大家去了解而且一起來推動這個政府最重視的資安的問題也跟今天的主題這個打詐防詐騙是非常重要的好嗎部長"},{"start":613.757,"end":623.64,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"}]}}}}