{"id":153625,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c982242e5a81789a19584a12a82c262ca10fc6f3e651eb0065903e0b134b6616cf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:50:37 - 12:12:42","影片長度":"00:22:05","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:50:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:12:42+08:00","duration":1325,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時51分）謝謝。可不可以請邱部長？"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。我在這裡合先敍明，過去我們是好同事，所以情誼沒問題，但是今天在這裡，你已經是部長，不是同事關係，我是受人民之託要來這裡監督政府的立委。"],["邱部長泰源：瞭解。"],["林委員淑芬：所以今天如果態度上有稍微嚴格之處，也請你理解。","我現在要講永豐化學這件事，它被你們停止製造，理由有三個，第一個就是產品檢驗涉及實驗數據造假，而且實驗的數據完整性不足；第二個他們的人員沒有辦法有效執行產品異物檢查作業，也沒有落實承諾的改善措施，執行例行作業；第三個他們重複發生的調製偏差事件，也沒有針對根本原因，執行矯正預防措施等，比如他們的輸液裡面灌水灌很多，有效性不足等等，所以你們要求它停產。但因為它的市占率七成，一個月150萬袋的輸液缺口在這裡。於是食藥署5月20日針對這件事情，發布新聞說食藥署積極調度永豐化學公司停產的替代藥品，確保供應穩定。請問部長，這個新聞稿發布之後，現在的進度如何？要進口嗎？次長說：誰有，他巴不得馬上就飛過去！","其實5月20日那天，食藥署就只是聲明而已，到6月3日缺藥平臺發布大包裝生理食鹽水供應方式之前，整個食藥署神隱，部長現在是沒人可以用了嗎？這個署長早就該下臺了，你沒有讓他下臺，繼續用他，你就要負政治責任！我問你，5月20日到6月3日兩個禮拜，沒有足夠的輸液，醫院裡面等著開刀的病人，診所裡面需要的這些病患，都在那邊等、等、等，因為政府沒有對應的政策，食藥署在那裡擺爛，部長，這樣可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想，我們所有相關的部門，真的每天都在努力。"],["林委員淑芬：努力？請問你們有沒有提出相對應解決缺藥問題的政策？520到6月3日之前，統統都沒有看到？"],["邱部長泰源：是不是請署長把最近的……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，請等一下，你不能叫署長回答，還輪不到吳秀梅！當初成立缺藥平臺有三大目標，它並不是讓人到那裡發洩的！缺藥平臺成立的目標，第一個要解決，第二個要緩解，第三個要預防缺藥。如今這三個功能完全沒有功用！","本席今天也不是要針對這一次的個案，我們是要跟你講，回顧整個永豐化學的輸液事件，食藥署5月13日就在缺藥平臺上公告輸液劑型短缺，徵求有意願供應的廠商，然後就什麼都沒有了！整個事件是藥師公會在5月18日發布新聞稿，指出各類手術、洗腎（透析）、醫院住院所必需的生理食鹽水、葡萄糖等輸液出現缺藥，是藥師公會去反映的。公會一直跟你們講，這樣會造成各大醫院開刀、住院停擺，洗腎的人怎麼辦？事實上，你們5月13日就知道了這件事，還說「我們缺這些東西，誰有，請趕快來跟我們講」！5月18日藥師公會跟你們說了，這樣會出問題；食藥署當天的回應是什麼，部長知道嗎？食藥署5月18日跟公會及這些醫院診所說「已經協調國內其他廠增加產能，考慮廠商如果調整產線，需要先完成測試評估，現在的做法是請國內廠商就可供應的規格，儘量擴充生產，並請醫療院所配合調整使用習慣」。要醫療院所調整使用習慣是什麼意思？是要開刀的不要開刀？要洗腎的不要洗腎？要使用輸液的都不要使用嗎？還有國內藥廠4月就知道這個問題，拖到現在都一、兩個月了，國內藥廠有辦法解決這個缺口嗎？完全沒有！你們現在的對策是要進口。部長，你們的食藥署怎麼了？舊政府用這位食藥署署長，新政府還要繼續用，那你就要把他們的所有責任都承擔起來！我現在跟部長講，食藥署在5月20日發布新聞，說他們會積極調度停產的替代藥品，確保供應穩定，之後，都沒有更新進度，也都沒有結果，只有6月3日有一則。","我現在跟部長講，你要聽好，因為我剛才聽別人問你的時候，其實你都不是很狀況內。現在新聞媒體報導輸液的調度進度都來自於次長的臉書──5月21日、5月24日、5月29日、5月31日。次長說，提醒基層診所要上藥品短缺通報平臺，食藥署會聯繫並提供服務。5月29日還說，健保共擬會要加開會議，同意啟動緊急專案進口，第一批輸液在6月10日前到貨，由食藥署評估專案期長短，健保在專案期間要以平時價格二到三倍支付。所以你們緊急專案進口。這些都不在政府的官方網站公布，次長的臉書變成官方網站、網頁了嗎？像這種調度的重要資訊，衛福部沒有，食藥署沒有，健保署網站、新聞稿統統都沒有，短缺藥品等重要資訊的發布是以次長個人的臉書粉專為準的嗎？部長，現在是不是都要看次長的臉書粉專？現在是依次長的粉專為政策發布的主要平臺，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是要以官方的。"],["林委員淑芬：可是你們都沒有。"],["邱部長泰源：應該都有。"],["林委員淑芬：人民要問責的話，是要問次長，你在臉書寫這樣，怎麼跟實際不同？人民要問責是找次長的臉書，還是要找衛福部……"],["邱部長泰源：沒有啦，次長在上面也寫了，那是提醒大家，如果有什麼問題……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你說，不論是缺藥平臺，還是你們食藥署的正式官網，統統都沒有，只有6月3日提到大瓶輸液有，其他統統都沒有。部長，現在是怎麼樣了？是不是以次長的臉書發布為主？"],["邱部長泰源：不是啦，次長是提醒一下，因為……"],["林委員淑芬：次長提醒？你們的官網怎麼都沒有資料？為什麼官網都沒有針對這幾個提出相對應的新聞稿或資料呢？不要在這裡說謊喔！藐視國會，我是不主張抓起來關或是罰錢，但食藥署竟然在這裡藐視國會！署長曾經叫林淑芬時間到了，下去！我是不會主張把你抓起來關，也不會主張用罰錢來解決；但藐視國會這種事情，衛福部食藥署都發生過。現在食藥署對食安藥品的準則是怎麼樣？立委不動，我就不動；輿論不動，我就不動！現在不是腳麻──末梢神經循環有問題，現在是中樞神經傳導已經壞了！","剛才講到健保低價，這個是不是缺藥的理由？部長說我們回去檢討，請問健保低價是缺藥的理由嗎？你們的次長也不承認有這件事！你們的次長5月20日說，在藥品價格的部分，這次因為違反GMP而停產的藥品，過去九年我們都沒有調降它的價格，而且藥廠也沒有在定期詢問價格調整機制時反映想要調高藥價。這是你們的次長在臉書上說的，請問，次長臉書代表官方立場，是不是？食藥署推卸責任說是藥價太低，所以沒人要做，你們的次長說：如果是藥價太低，過去怎麼都沒有反映？我們也沒有調降藥品價格。請問人民若要問責要找誰，請你告訴我！次長的臉書？我講這個是很嚴肅的，次長個人要作秀，我沒有意見；問題是政府的態度是什麼，人民要問責，請問要找誰？部長，現在是要繼續亂下去嗎？整個體制都混亂了，整個國家、整個政府運作的體制現在是要怎樣？","我再問部長，今天食藥署藥品組組長有來嗎？沒有！知道大家今天都會關心這個議題，最重要的藥品組卻沒有到場！對國內藥品市占率不均，或是原料易生短缺的藥品名單，過去有沒有整理統計出來？依據藥事法第二十七條之二所規範的必要藥品有481項，但本席現在不是問你們必要藥品，必要藥品本來就要管制、要盤點，我現在問的是另外兩個問題，第一個是市占率不均，是「重頭輕」──單靠一家做，別人都不要做，另一個是原物料易生短缺。這兩部分有沒有清單？藥品組有在做事情嗎？"],["吳署長秀梅：我們之前在評估，其實都有把這個考慮進去，都放在我們的必要藥品清單裡面。"],["林委員淑芬：署長，資料拿出來，你若要回答，用麥克風，列為會議紀錄，明天就把資料交到我們辦公室，因為你說你有做，我就相信你有做，明天馬上交出資料來。"],["吳署長秀梅：因為這份必要藥品清單是新的……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講必要藥品清單，我問你輸液是不是必要藥品？"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["林委員淑芬：輸液不在必要藥品的清單上面啦，你都搞不清楚，輸液會在必要藥品清單上面嗎？你當署長當幾年了，連這個都不知道，輸液不在必要藥品清單裡面！部長，你們從署長到組長到部長，什麼事情都不知道，我在這裡要質詢誰？人民要找誰負責？署長自己都搞不清楚，輸液絕對不在必要藥品清單！我跟你講，必要藥品清單是法律規定的，你一定要好好的統計和盤點它有沒有問題。這次出事的輸液就不在必要藥品清單裡面。","所以我才跟你提點兩個，第一個是市占不均，第二個是原料易生短缺。永豐輸液是市占不均的問題，預防藥品因為市占不均或原物料易生短缺的預警機制跟處理機制是什麼？有沒有？你們連這兩樣的統計都沒有，有本事說你們有什麼預警機制和處理機制？有沒有這種機制？就是市占率不均跟原料易生短缺的，有沒有預警機制和處理機制？沒有！請署長用麥克風回答，現在不是站在那裡，立委質詢你，你安靜、傻傻的，就可以「準過」！不行！"],["吳署長秀梅：因為我們就是在必要藥品清單這邊來做評估，評估了以後，有納進來的，我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：這不是在必要藥品清單！"],["吳署長秀梅：因為當時永豐的市占率是40%，我們如果以這樣子去算的話，那還有其他六家……"],["林委員淑芬：當時，現在是七成，過去曾經八成。你再告訴我，市占不均跟原料易生短缺的藥品名單，你覺得應該用什麼當指標？因為市占率高跟原料易生短缺，不一定代表用量大，也有可能是有替代藥品，所以你們有沒有研擬指標應該訂成什麼？你們有去思考過嗎？我想部長不知道，署長，你有沒有思考過？市占率高跟原料易生短缺，如果它的用量不大，而且有其他替代藥品，也不會是問題，那到底要管制什麼、哪些要列為清單、它的指標要怎麼定，你們有想過嗎？"],["吳署長秀梅：如果有替代藥品的……"],["林委員淑芬：有替代藥品的就不用管制了！"],["吳署長秀梅：它本身等於還有其他的藥品可以過來……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在問你這個啦！我就跟你說了，用量不大，有替代藥品的，就不要討論了，它不會產生問題。現在是沒有替代品，用量又很大的，出問題了。你看，現在不是腳麻手麻，是中樞神經傳導都中風了，動不了！就今天這個案例來看，你們4月就知道它沒有獲得展延，沒辦法繼續，因為永豐化學吃定政府，吃定食藥署，吃定衛福部，所以它敢擺爛！它擺爛之後，你們就這樣放它擺爛，要它停產，然後叫洗腎的不要洗腎、叫開刀的不要開刀，叫用輸液的不要用輸液嗎？藥品組是最重要的，藥品組的人員沒來，今天不用被委員質詢，就安靜沒事？藥品組沒有去盤點市占不均或易生短缺會產生問題的藥品？所以你們都「無要無緊」，讓病患自求多福，緣木求魚！","署長剛剛說永豐化學2015年出問題，不只是2015年，它還有其他不良紀錄，你們的藥品組在做什麼？2015年監察院對食藥署提出糾正，2021年他們又出問題，所做的生理食鹽水都不合規定，2023年市占率已經八成了，它的生理食鹽水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物，市占率都已經占八成了，做出來的產品還有黑色懸浮物，我就不要講這個個案了。整個食藥署說因為價格太低，如果調高價格就不會有這個問題，別家也會要做。請問，價格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\"組\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1041.586, \"end\": 1041.887, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1041.887, \"end\": 1042.047, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 1042.047, \"end\": 1042.067, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}]}, {\"start\": 1044.275, \"end\": 1069.932, \"text\": \"2015年檢察院提出對食藥署提出糾正2021年他們也還是出問題他們做的生理實驗署都不合規定2023年的去年是戰率已經八成了他的生理實驗水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物背上遮出來還有黑色的懸浮物\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1044.275, \"end\": 1045.596, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 1045.596, \"end\": 1045.816, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1045.816, \"end\": 1046.397, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1046.397, \"end\": 1046.557, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1046.557, \"end\": 1047.357, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 1047.357, \"end\": 1047.718, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"藥\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 1047.718, \"end\": 1047.898, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1047.898, \"end\": 1048.018, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1048.018, \"end\": 1048.378, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"糾\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 1048.378, \"end\": 1049.959, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1049.959, \"end\": 1051.14, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1051.14, \"end\": 1052.06, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1052.06, \"end\": 1052.401, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1052.401, \"end\": 1052.561, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1052.561, \"end\": 1053.281, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1053.281, \"end\": 1053.561, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", 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\"end\": 1062.447, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 1062.447, \"end\": 1062.687, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"射\", \"start\": 1062.687, \"end\": 1062.947, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"液\", \"start\": 1062.947, \"end\": 1063.307, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1063.307, \"end\": 1064.068, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1064.068, \"end\": 1064.368, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"黑\", \"start\": 1064.368, \"end\": 1064.828, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"色\", \"start\": 1064.828, \"end\": 1065.089, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1065.089, \"end\": 1066.189, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"懸\"}, {\"word\": \"浮\", \"start\": 1066.189, \"end\": 1066.469, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 1066.469, \"end\": 1067.63, \"score\": 0.614}, {\"word\": \"背\", \"start\": 1067.63, \"end\": 1067.87, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1067.87, \"end\": 1068.351, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"遮\", \"start\": 1068.351, \"end\": 1068.511, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1068.511, \"end\": 1068.831, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1068.831, \"end\": 1069.051, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"黑\", \"start\": 1069.051, \"end\": 1069.311, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"色\", \"start\": 1069.311, \"end\": 1069.571, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1069.571, \"end\": 1069.752, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"懸\"}, {\"word\": \"浮\", \"start\": 1069.752, \"end\": 1069.912, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 1069.912, \"end\": 1069.932, \"score\": 0.537}]}, {\"start\": 1070.802, \"end\": 1078.168, \"text\": \"我們不要說這個個案啦!你們自己看看,你們整個食藥署都可以說因為價格太低,所以調高價格就不會有這個問題就北京也在做價格太低可以成為製造出這種問題的理由和藉口嗎?保證你們說看看\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1070.802, \"end\": 1071.062, \"score\": 0.653}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1071.062, \"end\": 1071.222, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1304.955, \"end\": 1304.975, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1304.975, \"end\": 1305.115, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"楊\"}, {\"word\": \"瓊\"}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 1305.115, \"end\": 1305.215, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1305.215, \"end\": 1305.275, \"score\": 0.638}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 1305.275, \"end\": 1305.295, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,631 --> 00:00:19,716\n我做一下宣告不好意思現在請林淑芬委員質詢那淑芬委員發言結束中午就休息30分鐘4分鐘我沒有要講8分鐘喔剛剛好孟凱就10幾分鐘了\n\n2\n00:00:24,116 --> 00:00:37,964\n有啦,沒關係啦,我不是說你,我也是要說很久的啦。我只是在說,我沒有說到最後。好,那我重新宣告,現在請林淑芬委員質詢。楊瓊英委員質詢結束,我們就休息30分鐘。好,謝謝,可不可以請邱部長。請邱部長。\n\n3\n00:00:48,927 --> 00:01:11,068\n委員好部長好我在這裡先和序聲明過去我們是好同事所以情誼沒問題但今天在這裡你已經不是同事關係你是部長然後我是受人民之托要來這裡監督政府的立委所以今天如果態度上如果有稍微嚴格之處那也請你理解那我現在講永豐化學這件事情\n\n4\n00:01:11,909 --> 00:01:32,938\n他被你們停止製造那他的理由有三個第一個就是說產品檢驗涉及實驗數據造假而且實驗的數據完整性不足第二個他們的人員沒有辦法有效的執行產品義務檢查的作業也沒有落實承諾的改善措施執行例行作業第三個\n\n5\n00:01:33,578 --> 00:01:49,729\n他們重複發生的調製偏差事件並沒有針對根本原因執行矯正預防措施等比如說他們的輸液裡面灌水灌很多有效性不足等等所以導致你們把它停產了七成\n\n6\n00:01:52,611 --> 00:02:16,242\n市佔率7成．一個月150萬袋的輸益缺口在這裡但我今天要問你部長這個事情石耀署在5月20日發布了一個新聞他說我們石耀署積極調度永豐化學公司平產的替代藥品確保供應穩定這個新聞稿一發布以後現在進度怎麼樣沒有要進口\n\n7\n00:02:19,949 --> 00:02:42,441\n市長說的誰有,他發布的就馬上飛過去了5月20,食藥署就只是聲明,只有聲明而已然後到6月3號缺藥平台發布了一個大包裝生理食鹽水供應方式前整個食藥署神明書店,現在這個書店你現在是沒有人可以贏了\n\n8\n00:02:44,847 --> 00:03:08,045\n這件事早就要落台啊!我們如果沒有落台,你繼續因爲你在附近在這邊我問你5月20到6月3號兩個禮拜沒有足夠的輸液然後醫院裡面等著開刀的病人診所裡面需要的大家這些病患都在等等等因為你政府沒有對應的政策食藥署在那裡擺爛不然這樣還不行\n\n9\n00:03:11,752 --> 00:03:22,304\n我想我們所有的相關的部門都真的是每天在努力啦努力請問你有沒有做出相對應解決缺藥的問題的政策520到6月3日之前通通都沒有看到\n\n10\n00:03:28,482 --> 00:03:31,605\n當時成立缺藥平臺有三大目標缺藥平臺不是都要讓人發現欸缺藥平臺成立的目標第一個要解決第二個要緩解第三個要預防缺藥\n\n11\n00:03:48,542 --> 00:04:17,205\n缺藥平台這三個功能完全沒有功用那我今天部長我也不是要針對這一次的個案我們是要跟你講回顧整個永豐化學的輸液事件食藥署在5月5月13日在缺藥平台公告了5月13就公告了輸液畸形短缺徵求有意願供應的廠商然後就沒有了什麼都沒有了\n\n12\n00:04:17,952 --> 00:04:35,462\n整個事件是藥師公會發布新聞稿在5月18日指出各類的手術洗腎的透析醫院住院所必需的身體食鹽水葡萄糖等輸液出現缺藥是藥師公會然後去反映的\n\n13\n00:04:36,463 --> 00:04:51,170\n他一直跟你們講說這樣會造成各大醫院開刀住院停擺然後洗腎的人怎麼辦結果呢5月13日你們就知道你們就跟我們說我們欠這個東西看誰有錢來跟我們說5月18日藥師就跟你們說說這會出問題搞不好你們需要想在5月18當天的回應是什麼你知道嗎部長\n\n14\n00:05:00,729 --> 00:05:21,378\n5月18日施要署告訴這些公會跟這些醫院診所說已經協調國內其他廠增加產能考慮廠商若有調整產線需要先完成測試評估現在做法是請國內廠商就可供應的規格盡量擴充生產並請醫療院所配合調整使用習慣\n\n15\n00:05:23,139 --> 00:05:30,581\n醫療院所調整使用習慣是什麼意思叫開刀的不要開刀叫洗身的不要洗身叫用書意的都不要用嗎然後我們今天在講他講說國內藥廠欸結果現在到4月他們就知道這個問題拖到現在一兩個月了國內藥廠有辦法解決這個缺口嗎完全沒有你們現在對案和這個對策也是要進口\n\n16\n00:05:54,827 --> 00:06:08,832\n拜託你的食藥署什麼啦就政府用這個食藥署署長新政府還要繼續用那你就要為他們的所有責任都要承擔起來\n\n17\n00:06:10,342 --> 00:06:24,670\n我現在跟你講部長,食藥署在5月20他們發佈一個我剛剛講的他說他們會積極調度停產的替代藥品確保供應穩定的新聞稿以後都沒有更新進度也沒有結果只有6月3號有嘛但是我現在跟你講喔,保證有你聽好喔,現在我剛才聽你白人問你其實是都\n\n18\n00:06:36,428 --> 00:06:39,112\n五月二十一日、五月二十四日、五月二十九日、五月三十一日\n\n19\n00:06:51,974 --> 00:07:17,290\n他們次長說提醒基層診所要上藥品短缺通報平臺食藥署會聯繫並提供服務然後還講到說5月29號公布了健保共理會要加開會議同意啟動緊急專案進口第一批輸液在6月10號前到貨食藥署評估專案期長短在於專案期這個\n\n20\n00:07:19,091 --> 00:07:27,687\n要平時價格二到三倍支付所以你們緊急專案進口這都不是在政府的官方網站公佈的\n\n21\n00:07:30,724 --> 00:07:49,690\n市長的臉書變成官方網站網頁了嗎?這種調度的重要資訊衛福部沒有食藥署沒有健保署網站新聞稿通通都沒有短缺藥品的重要訊息是發布是以市長個人的臉書粉專為準的嗎?現在是要看市長的臉書粉專是不是?現在是依市長的粉專\n\n22\n00:07:59,569 --> 00:08:14,856\n為主政策發布的主要平台,是不是?當然是要以官方的...啊你們都沒有捏?都沒有捏?應該都有啊人民要問責,是要問責次長說你臉書什麼這樣?啊怎麼才是很多天?啊如果要問責是找次長的臉書,還是要找衛福部?\n\n23\n00:08:22,509 --> 00:08:23,129\n市長的臉書發佈為主是不是?\n\n24\n00:08:51,941 --> 00:09:01,184\n沒有啦次長提醒你官網怎麼都沒有資料為什麼官網都沒有針對這幾個有相對應的新聞稿或資料呢不要在這裡說謊喔藐視國會我是不主張抓起來關或是罰錢啦但是十一號署經常在這裡藐視國會署長曾經叫林淑芬時間倒了下去\n\n25\n00:09:20,287 --> 00:09:30,973\n我是不會主張把你抓起來關啦也不會主張用錢、罰錢給你解決啦但是藐視國會這種事情衛福部、食藥署都壞心鬼\n\n26\n00:09:32,165 --> 00:09:46,870\n現在食藥署對食安藥品的準則是怎麼樣?立委不動,我就不動。輿論不動,我就不動。現在不是咖吧?末梢神經循環有問題。現在是中樞神經傳導已經壞掉了。壞掉了。所以剛才還可以講到健保低價。所以這個是不是缺藥的理由?\n\n27\n00:09:57,028 --> 00:10:22,479\n我對你說這個是我們回去檢討請問健保低價是缺藥的理由嗎?您的次長也不承認有這件事喔你們的次長5月20說在藥品價格的部分這一次因為違反GMP而停產的藥品過去9年我們都沒有調降它的價格而且藥廠也沒有在定期詢問價格調整機制表示說藥廠也沒有反應說想要調高藥價\n\n28\n00:10:24,977 --> 00:10:31,499\n您的署長說的啊,署長臉書說的那我問你,次長臉書是代表官方立場是不是?他說的啊,有您食藥署推卸責任給藥價太低所以沒人要負責您的次長說藥價太低過去怎麼都沒人認我也沒給他們調降藥品價格請問我是要找誰問責啦人民藥問責要找誰,你告訴我次長的臉書\n\n29\n00:10:57,591 --> 00:11:11,556\n我講這個是很嚴肅喔次長要個人作秀我沒有意見但是你正式人你政府態度是什麼我人民要問責我要找誰保證現在要繼續亂下去嗎整個體制都混亂啦整個國家整個政府運作的體制現在是要怎麼做我再問你勒保證我們食藥署的藥品組昨天有來嗎\n\n30\n00:11:29,003 --> 00:11:47,090\n藥品組主長有來嗎?沒有今天你知道大家會關心這個議題最重要藥品組都沒有來他過去有沒有整理統計國內藥品市佔率不均或者是原料益生短缺的藥品名單來有沒有\n\n31\n00:11:52,490 --> 00:12:19,108\n來,依據藥事法27條之2規範的必要藥品481項但我不是在問你們必要藥品必要藥品本來就要管制、要盤點但我現在問題的是另外兩個第一個,市佔率不均當初如果放一間在做別人都不喜歡做的還有一種是原物料益生短缺有沒有啦?有沒有清單啊?\n\n32\n00:12:20,988 --> 00:12:25,135\n我們之前在評估其實都有把這個考慮進去都放在我們的必要品清單裡面\n\n33\n00:12:31,373 --> 00:12:57,501\n來資料拿出來署長你如果要回答用麥克風列為會議記錄然後你要馬上明天就把資料提交到我們辦公室因為你說你有做我就相信你有做明天在水搞出來資料搞出來因為這份必要品清單是新的我不是在講必要品清單我是跟你講書意是不是必要品\n\n34\n00:12:58,795 --> 00:13:18,874\n蘇毅他不在必要品的清單上面啊你都搞不清楚蘇毅會在必要品清單上面嗎你連這個都不知道你當署長當幾年了蘇毅不在必要品清單裡面\n\n35\n00:13:21,670 --> 00:13:23,092\n人民要找誰負責呢\n\n36\n00:13:39,086 --> 00:14:05,224\n蘇義絕對不是必要品清單所以我跟你講了必要品清單是法律規定的你一定要好好的統計案盤點他有沒有問題可是這次出事的蘇義他就不是必要品清單所以我才跟你提點兩個第一個叫事戰不均第二個叫原料益生短缺永豐蘇義他是事戰不均的問題\n\n37\n00:14:07,185 --> 00:14:22,535\n預防藥品因為施戰不均或原物料一生短缺的預警機制跟處理機制是什麼?有沒有?這兩項的統計就沒有啊!你跟我解釋一下你要怎麼預警機制跟處理機制有沒有?有沒有?有這種機制嗎?\n\n38\n00:14:29,068 --> 00:14:39,395\n市政不均的跟原料一生短缺的有沒有預警機制和處理機制?沒有!現在你用麥克風回答,現在不是站在那裡委員幫你質詢,然後你又點點就可以轉過了!沒有!\n\n39\n00:14:44,378 --> 00:15:09,223\n因為我們就是在必要品清單這邊來做評估那評估了以後有納進來的就說我們這不是必要品清單因為當時永豐的他其實他市佔率是40%所以我們如果以這樣子去算的話那還有其他的當時現在是七成過去曾經八成有六家好來你再告訴我市佔不均和原料醫生短缺的藥品名單的指標你覺得用什麼當指標\n\n40\n00:15:10,816 --> 00:15:39,384\n因為市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺也不一定代表用量大有可能是有替代藥品啊那你有沒有研理指標應該定成什麼?你有沒有去書課過?你有沒有書課過?書訂我想部長不知道你有沒有思考過市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺如果他用量不大而且有其他替代藥品也不會是問題啊那到底是要管制什麼啊哪些是要\n\n41\n00:15:40,865 --> 00:15:42,206\n現在就是沒有替代品用量又很大出問題了\n\n42\n00:16:12,321 --> 00:16:36,434\n所以你看,不是腳麻手麻麻,總是神經穿斗齁,都中風了,未定未當啦!所以今天以這個案例來看,你們4月就知道了就知道說他沒有獲得展言,沒有辦法繼續,因為永豐化學吃定了你政府,吃定了你S藥署,吃定了你衛福部,所以敢擺爛\n\n43\n00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:45,345\n可是他擺爛你就這樣子一磅的爛啊你現在給他停產這樣叫世新的不要世新開刀的不要開刀用書意的不要用書意嗎你們藥品組最重要藥品組的人沒有來今天不用去用這季今天點點都沒有事情藥品組沒有盤點市站不均或醫生短缺的這個會產生問題的藥品\n\n44\n00:17:02,819 --> 00:17:22,067\n所以你都說沒藥沒金,你沒藥沒金叫大家病患自求多福捏,緣木求雨捏我再說一下,你剛才署長你說永豐化學2015年出問題他不是只有2015年,他的不良紀錄也有,你的藥品組在做什麼\n\n45\n00:17:24,275 --> 00:17:49,932\n2015年檢察院提出對食藥署提出糾正2021年他們也還是出問題他們做的生理實驗署都不合規定2023年的去年是戰率已經八成了他的生理實驗水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物背上遮出來還有黑色的懸浮物\n\n46\n00:17:50,802 --> 00:17:58,168\n我們不要說這個個案啦!你們自己看看,你們整個食藥署都可以說因為價格太低,所以調高價格就不會有這個問題就北京也在做價格太低可以成為製造出這種問題的理由和藉口嗎?保證你們說看看\n\n47\n00:18:10,450 --> 00:18:24,309\n我想人民的安全是第一,所以絕對不允許不管價格...人民的安全第一這口號我可以講,現在是政府做什麼,你的食藥署做什麼?你的食藥署覺得價格太低,覺得去跟健保署反映過\n\n48\n00:18:25,350 --> 00:18:31,997\n建保署覺得你不來我聽到過嗎?政府是一體這個問題就是沒人要做會存一間壟斷再做一篇屢屢發生問題這種事情你做政府的現在還要有政府政府覺得去協調建保署說這個問題長久不是辦法要怎麼解決?\n\n49\n00:18:46,872 --> 00:18:51,619\n五月二十九你們的次長說要啟動盤點高風險的藥廠管理負擔他五月二十九臉書啦然後人家採訪他啦\n\n50\n00:19:03,095 --> 00:19:07,800\n他說高風險藥廠就是過去茶廠記錄曾經有嚴重缺失的藥廠那未來我們要盤點它未來可能要比較早一點介入這個事情我們未來會重點處理你覺得高風險藥廠的定義是什麼\n\n51\n00:19:24,485 --> 00:19:46,962\n委員那個林委員因為時間已經超過了那等一下還有一場要我要講我要講我要講最後一段而已啦我補充一下啦因為吼有一個訊息是這樣啦因為林市長他跟議會密合他趕快要安撫議會的心所以有時候他急著發臉書大家知道要怎麼做這是用心良苦\n\n52\n00:19:47,182 --> 00:19:53,125\n這關這麼簡單都用發言書的喔這麼簡單喔大家都可以做不用意啦我現在跟你說啦什麼叫高風險藥廠你說不出來你敢知道過去的茶廠裡面永豐化學我們幫你討資料你跟我們說的喔永豐化學除了今年嚴重違反GMP之外在過去6年沒有任何違反藥事法的記錄\n\n53\n00:20:13,868 --> 00:20:18,269\n但是有很多次都是用回收藥品草草結案這是你們的成科每一次藥廠都這樣明明就查到了不法都叫他們回收然後你們就不開法連股票上市的藥廠都可以製造劣質藥你們連行者也不敢啟動徒法不足以自刑\n\n54\n00:20:40,936 --> 00:21:02,187\n所以高風險講大話,你如果要說這樣,他沒有違反過藥事法的紀錄,連這個永豐化學你要把它列為高風險,恐怕都還有疑慮高風險指標是什麼?沒錯,你要想一下,你要想要品的品質三項要素,安全、有效、品質\n\n55\n00:21:03,368 --> 00:21:30,353\n上市前要查驗,上市後要管理。現在我聽說,我聽說,食藥署嚇到啊,事件這麼嚴重嚇到啊。所以上面有交代下面,例行性檢查、機動性查查、機查強度都要降低。把警鈴拔掉,然後就不會出問題。不查查就沒問題。\n\n56\n00:21:32,930 --> 00:21:41,177\n有這件事嗎?你一定說沒有的。現在是要叫稽查組不要再去查。沒有稽查就沒有問題。眼不見為淨。是要這樣嗎?\n\n57\n00:21:44,955 --> 00:21:45,295\n接下來請楊瓊英委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5631\t19716\t我做一下宣告不好意思現在請林淑芬委員質詢那淑芬委員發言結束中午就休息30分鐘4分鐘我沒有要講8分鐘喔剛剛好孟凱就10幾分鐘了\n24116\t37964\t有啦,沒關係啦,我不是說你,我也是要說很久的啦。我只是在說,我沒有說到最後。好,那我重新宣告,現在請林淑芬委員質詢。楊瓊英委員質詢結束,我們就休息30分鐘。好,謝謝,可不可以請邱部長。請邱部長。\n48927\t71068\t委員好部長好我在這裡先和序聲明過去我們是好同事所以情誼沒問題但今天在這裡你已經不是同事關係你是部長然後我是受人民之托要來這裡監督政府的立委所以今天如果態度上如果有稍微嚴格之處那也請你理解那我現在講永豐化學這件事情\n71909\t92938\t他被你們停止製造那他的理由有三個第一個就是說產品檢驗涉及實驗數據造假而且實驗的數據完整性不足第二個他們的人員沒有辦法有效的執行產品義務檢查的作業也沒有落實承諾的改善措施執行例行作業第三個\n93578\t109729\t他們重複發生的調製偏差事件並沒有針對根本原因執行矯正預防措施等比如說他們的輸液裡面灌水灌很多有效性不足等等所以導致你們把它停產了七成\n112611\t136242\t市佔率7成．一個月150萬袋的輸益缺口在這裡但我今天要問你部長 這個事情石耀署在5月20日發布了一個新聞他說我們石耀署積極調度永豐化學公司平產的替代藥品確保供應穩定 這個新聞稿一發布以後現在進度怎麼樣沒有 要進口\n139949\t162441\t市長說的誰有,他發布的就馬上飛過去了5月20,食藥署就只是聲明,只有聲明而已然後到6月3號缺藥平台發布了一個大包裝生理食鹽水供應方式前整個食藥署神明書店,現在這個書店你現在是沒有人可以贏了\n164847\t188045\t這件事早就要落台啊!我們如果沒有落台,你繼續因爲你在附近在這邊我問你5月20到6月3號兩個禮拜沒有足夠的輸液然後醫院裡面等著開刀的病人診所裡面需要的大家這些病患都在等等等因為你政府沒有對應的政策食藥署在那裡擺爛不然這樣還不行\n191752\t202304\t我想我們所有的相關的部門都真的是每天在努力啦努力請問你有沒有做出相對應解決缺藥的問題的政策520到6月3日之前通通都沒有看到\n208482\t211605\t當時成立缺藥平臺有三大目標缺藥平臺不是都要讓人發現欸缺藥平臺成立的目標第一個要解決第二個要緩解第三個要預防缺藥\n228542\t257205\t缺藥平台這三個功能完全沒有功用那我今天部長我也不是要針對這一次的個案我們是要跟你講回顧整個永豐化學的輸液事件食藥署在5月5月13日在缺藥平台公告了5月13就公告了輸液畸形短缺徵求有意願供應的廠商然後就沒有了什麼都沒有了\n257952\t275462\t整個事件是藥師公會發布新聞稿在5月18日指出各類的手術洗腎的透析醫院住院所必需的身體食鹽水葡萄糖等輸液出現缺藥是藥師公會然後去反映的\n276463\t291170\t他一直跟你們講說這樣會造成各大醫院開刀住院停擺然後洗腎的人怎麼辦結果呢5月13日你們就知道你們就跟我們說我們欠這個東西看誰有錢來跟我們說5月18日藥師就跟你們說說這會出問題搞不好你們需要想在5月18當天的回應是什麼你知道嗎部長\n300729\t321378\t5月18日施要署告訴這些公會跟這些醫院診所說已經協調國內其他廠增加產能考慮廠商若有調整產線需要先完成測試評估現在做法是請國內廠商就可供應的規格盡量擴充生產並請醫療院所配合調整使用習慣\n323139\t330581\t醫療院所調整使用習慣是什麼意思叫開刀的不要開刀叫洗身的不要洗身叫用書意的都不要用嗎然後我們今天在講他講說國內藥廠欸結果現在到4月他們就知道這個問題拖到現在一兩個月了國內藥廠有辦法解決這個缺口嗎完全沒有你們現在對案和這個對策也是要進口\n354827\t368832\t拜託 你的食藥署什麼啦就政府用這個食藥署署長新政府還要繼續用那你就要為他們的所有責任都要承擔起來\n370342\t384670\t我現在跟你講部長,食藥署在5月20他們發佈一個我剛剛講的他說他們會積極調度停產的替代藥品確保供應穩定的新聞稿以後都沒有更新進度也沒有結果只有6月3號有嘛但是我現在跟你講喔,保證有你聽好喔,現在我剛才聽你白人問你其實是都\n396428\t399112\t五月二十一日、五月二十四日、五月二十九日、五月三十一日\n411974\t437290\t他們次長說提醒基層診所要上藥品短缺通報平臺食藥署會聯繫並提供服務然後還講到說5月29號公布了健保共理會要加開會議同意啟動緊急專案進口第一批輸液在6月10號前到貨食藥署評估專案期長短在於專案期這個\n439091\t447687\t要平時價格二到三倍支付所以你們緊急專案進口這都不是在政府的官方網站公佈的\n450724\t469690\t市長的臉書變成官方網站網頁了嗎?這種調度的重要資訊衛福部沒有食藥署沒有健保署網站新聞稿通通都沒有短缺藥品的重要訊息是發布是以市長個人的臉書粉專為準的嗎?現在是要看市長的臉書粉專是不是?現在是依市長的粉專\n479569\t494856\t為主政策發布的主要平台,是不是?當然是要以官方的...啊你們都沒有捏?都沒有捏?應該都有啊人民要問責,是要問責次長說你臉書什麼這樣?啊怎麼才是很多天?啊如果要問責是找次長的臉書,還是要找衛福部?\n502509\t503129\t市長的臉書發佈為主是不是?\n531941\t541184\t沒有啦 次長提醒你官網怎麼都沒有資料為什麼官網都沒有針對這幾個有相對應的新聞稿或資料呢不要在這裡說謊喔 藐視國會我是不主張抓起來關或是罰錢啦但是十一號署經常在這裡藐視國會署長曾經叫林淑芬時間倒了下去\n560287\t570973\t我是不會主張把你抓起來關啦 也不會主張用錢、罰錢給你解決啦但是藐視國會這種事情 衛福部、食藥署都壞心鬼\n572165\t586870\t現在食藥署對食安藥品的準則是怎麼樣?立委不動,我就不動。輿論不動,我就不動。現在不是咖吧?末梢神經循環有問題。現在是中樞神經傳導已經壞掉了。壞掉了。所以剛才還可以講到健保低價。所以這個是不是缺藥的理由?\n597028\t622479\t我對你說這個是我們回去檢討請問健保低價是缺藥的理由嗎?您的次長也不承認有這件事喔你們的次長5月20說在藥品價格的部分這一次因為違反GMP而停產的藥品過去9年我們都沒有調降它的價格而且藥廠也沒有在定期詢問價格調整機制表示說藥廠也沒有反應說想要調高藥價\n624977\t631499\t您的署長說的啊,署長臉書說的那我問你,次長臉書是代表官方立場是不是?他說的啊,有您食藥署推卸責任給藥價太低所以沒人要負責您的次長說藥價太低過去怎麼都沒人認我也沒給他們調降藥品價格請問我是要找誰問責啦人民藥問責要找誰,你告訴我次長的臉書\n657591\t671556\t我講這個是很嚴肅喔次長要個人 作秀我沒有意見但是你正式人你政府態度是什麼我人民要問責我要找誰保證現在要繼續亂下去嗎整個體制都混亂啦整個國家整個政府運作的體制現在是要怎麼做我再問你勒保證我們食藥署的藥品組昨天有來嗎\n689003\t707090\t藥品組主長有來嗎?沒有今天你知道大家會關心這個議題最重要藥品組都沒有來他過去有沒有整理統計國內藥品市佔率不均或者是原料益生短缺的藥品名單來有沒有\n712490\t739108\t來,依據藥事法27條之2規範的必要藥品481項但我不是在問你們必要藥品必要藥品本來就要管制、要盤點但我現在問題的是另外兩個第一個,市佔率不均當初如果放一間在做別人都不喜歡做的還有一種是原物料益生短缺有沒有啦?有沒有清單啊?\n740988\t745135\t我們之前在評估其實都有把這個考慮進去都放在我們的必要品清單裡面\n751373\t777501\t來資料拿出來 署長你如果要回答用麥克風列為會議記錄 然後你要馬上明天就把資料提交到我們辦公室因為你說你有做 我就相信你有做 明天在水搞出來 資料搞出來因為這份必要品清單是新的我不是在講必要品清單 我是跟你講書意是不是必要品\n778795\t798874\t蘇毅他不在必要品的清單上面啊你都搞不清楚蘇毅會在必要品清單上面嗎你連這個都不知道你當署長當幾年了蘇毅不在必要品清單裡面\n801670\t803092\t人民要找誰負責呢\n819086\t845224\t蘇義絕對不是必要品清單所以我跟你講了必要品清單是法律規定的你一定要好好的統計案盤點他有沒有問題可是這次出事的蘇義他就不是必要品清單所以我才跟你提點兩個第一個叫事戰不均第二個叫原料益生短缺永豐蘇義他是事戰不均的問題\n847185\t862535\t預防藥品因為施戰不均或原物料一生短缺的預警機制跟處理機制是什麼?有沒有?這兩項的統計就沒有啊!你跟我解釋一下你要怎麼預警機制跟處理機制有沒有?有沒有?有這種機制嗎?\n869068\t879395\t市政不均的跟原料一生短缺的有沒有預警機制和處理機制?沒有!現在你用麥克風回答,現在不是站在那裡委員幫你質詢,然後你又點點就可以轉過了!沒有!\n884378\t909223\t因為我們就是在必要品清單這邊來做評估那評估了以後有納進來的就說我們這不是必要品清單因為當時永豐的他其實他市佔率是40%所以我們如果以這樣子去算的話那還有其他的當時現在是七成過去曾經八成有六家好來你再告訴我市佔不均和原料醫生短缺的藥品名單的指標你覺得用什麼當指標\n910816\t939384\t因為市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺也不一定代表用量大有可能是有替代藥品啊那你有沒有研理指標應該定成什麼?你有沒有去書課過?你有沒有書課過?書訂 我想部長不知道你有沒有思考過市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺如果他用量不大而且有其他替代藥品也不會是問題啊那到底是要管制什麼啊哪些是要\n940865\t942206\t現在就是沒有替代品用量又很大出問題了\n972321\t996434\t所以你看,不是腳麻手麻麻,總是神經穿斗齁,都中風了,未定未當啦!所以今天以這個案例來看,你們4月就知道了就知道說他沒有獲得展言,沒有辦法繼續,因為永豐化學吃定了你政府,吃定了你S藥署,吃定了你衛福部,所以敢擺爛\n998800\t1005345\t可是他擺爛你就這樣子一磅的爛啊你現在給他停產 這樣叫世新的不要世新 開刀的不要開刀 用書意的不要用書意嗎你們藥品組最重要藥品組的人沒有來 今天不用去用這季 今天點點都沒有事情藥品組沒有盤點市站不均或醫生短缺的 這個會產生問題的藥品\n1022819\t1042067\t所以你都說沒藥沒金,你沒藥沒金叫大家病患自求多福捏,緣木求雨捏我再說一下,你剛才署長你說永豐化學2015年出問題他不是只有2015年,他的不良紀錄也有,你的藥品組在做什麼\n1044275\t1069932\t2015年檢察院提出對食藥署提出糾正2021年他們也還是出問題他們做的生理實驗署都不合規定2023年的去年是戰率已經八成了他的生理實驗水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物背上遮出來還有黑色的懸浮物\n1070802\t1078168\t我們不要說這個個案啦!你們自己看看,你們整個食藥署都可以說因為價格太低,所以調高價格就不會有這個問題就北京也在做價格太低可以成為製造出這種問題的理由和藉口嗎?保證你們說看看\n1090450\t1104309\t我想人民的安全是第一,所以絕對不允許不管價格...人民的安全第一這口號我可以講,現在是政府做什麼,你的食藥署做什麼?你的食藥署覺得價格太低,覺得去跟健保署反映過\n1105350\t1111997\t建保署覺得你不來我聽到過嗎?政府是一體 這個問題就是沒人要做 會存一間壟斷 再做一篇 屢屢發生問題這種事情 你做政府的 現在還要有政府政府覺得去協調建保署說 這個問題長久不是辦法 要怎麼解決?\n1126872\t1131619\t五月二十九你們的次長說要啟動盤點高風險的藥廠管理負擔他五月二十九臉書啦然後人家採訪他啦\n1143095\t1147800\t他說高風險藥廠就是過去茶廠記錄曾經有嚴重缺失的藥廠那未來我們要盤點它未來可能要比較早一點介入這個事情我們未來會重點處理你覺得高風險藥廠的定義是什麼\n1164485\t1186962\t委員 那個林委員 因為時間已經超過了 那等一下還有一場要 我要講 我要講 我要講最後一段而已啦我補充一下啦 因為吼 有一個訊息是這樣啦 因為林市長他跟議會密合 他趕快要安撫議會的心 所以有時候他急著發臉書 大家知道要怎麼做 這是用心良苦\n1187182\t1193125\t這關這麼簡單都用發言書的喔 這麼簡單喔 大家都可以做 不用意啦 我現在跟你說啦 什麼叫高風險藥廠 你說不出來 你敢知道 過去的茶廠裡面 永豐化學 我們幫你討資料 你跟我們說的喔 永豐化學除了今年嚴重違反GMP之外 在過去6年 沒有任何違反藥事法的記錄\n1213868\t1218269\t但是有很多次都是用回收藥品草草結案這是你們的成科每一次藥廠都這樣明明就查到了不法都叫他們回收然後你們就不開法連股票上市的藥廠都可以製造劣質藥你們連行者也不敢啟動徒法不足以自刑\n1240936\t1262187\t所以高風險講大話,你如果要說這樣,他沒有違反過藥事法的紀錄,連這個永豐化學你要把它列為高風險,恐怕都還有疑慮高風險指標是什麼?沒錯,你要想一下,你要想要品的品質三項要素,安全、有效、品質\n1263368\t1290353\t上市前要查驗,上市後要管理。現在我聽說,我聽說,食藥署嚇到啊,事件這麼嚴重嚇到啊。所以上面有交代下面,例行性檢查、機動性查查、機查強度都要降低。把警鈴拔掉,然後就不會出問題。不查查就沒問題。\n1292930\t1301177\t有這件事嗎?你一定說沒有的。現在是要叫稽查組不要再去查。沒有稽查就沒有問題。眼不見為淨。是要這樣嗎?\n1304955\t1305295\t接下來請楊瓊英委員發言\n","txt":"我做一下宣告不好意思現在請林淑芬委員質詢那淑芬委員發言結束中午就休息30分鐘4分鐘我沒有要講8分鐘喔剛剛好孟凱就10幾分鐘了\n有啦,沒關係啦,我不是說你,我也是要說很久的啦。我只是在說,我沒有說到最後。好,那我重新宣告,現在請林淑芬委員質詢。楊瓊英委員質詢結束,我們就休息30分鐘。好,謝謝,可不可以請邱部長。請邱部長。\n委員好部長好我在這裡先和序聲明過去我們是好同事所以情誼沒問題但今天在這裡你已經不是同事關係你是部長然後我是受人民之托要來這裡監督政府的立委所以今天如果態度上如果有稍微嚴格之處那也請你理解那我現在講永豐化學這件事情\n他被你們停止製造那他的理由有三個第一個就是說產品檢驗涉及實驗數據造假而且實驗的數據完整性不足第二個他們的人員沒有辦法有效的執行產品義務檢查的作業也沒有落實承諾的改善措施執行例行作業第三個\n他們重複發生的調製偏差事件並沒有針對根本原因執行矯正預防措施等比如說他們的輸液裡面灌水灌很多有效性不足等等所以導致你們把它停產了七成\n市佔率7成．一個月150萬袋的輸益缺口在這裡但我今天要問你部長 這個事情石耀署在5月20日發布了一個新聞他說我們石耀署積極調度永豐化學公司平產的替代藥品確保供應穩定 這個新聞稿一發布以後現在進度怎麼樣沒有 要進口\n市長說的誰有,他發布的就馬上飛過去了5月20,食藥署就只是聲明,只有聲明而已然後到6月3號缺藥平台發布了一個大包裝生理食鹽水供應方式前整個食藥署神明書店,現在這個書店你現在是沒有人可以贏了\n這件事早就要落台啊!我們如果沒有落台,你繼續因爲你在附近在這邊我問你5月20到6月3號兩個禮拜沒有足夠的輸液然後醫院裡面等著開刀的病人診所裡面需要的大家這些病患都在等等等因為你政府沒有對應的政策食藥署在那裡擺爛不然這樣還不行\n我想我們所有的相關的部門都真的是每天在努力啦努力請問你有沒有做出相對應解決缺藥的問題的政策520到6月3日之前通通都沒有看到\n當時成立缺藥平臺有三大目標缺藥平臺不是都要讓人發現欸缺藥平臺成立的目標第一個要解決第二個要緩解第三個要預防缺藥\n缺藥平台這三個功能完全沒有功用那我今天部長我也不是要針對這一次的個案我們是要跟你講回顧整個永豐化學的輸液事件食藥署在5月5月13日在缺藥平台公告了5月13就公告了輸液畸形短缺徵求有意願供應的廠商然後就沒有了什麼都沒有了\n整個事件是藥師公會發布新聞稿在5月18日指出各類的手術洗腎的透析醫院住院所必需的身體食鹽水葡萄糖等輸液出現缺藥是藥師公會然後去反映的\n他一直跟你們講說這樣會造成各大醫院開刀住院停擺然後洗腎的人怎麼辦結果呢5月13日你們就知道你們就跟我們說我們欠這個東西看誰有錢來跟我們說5月18日藥師就跟你們說說這會出問題搞不好你們需要想在5月18當天的回應是什麼你知道嗎部長\n5月18日施要署告訴這些公會跟這些醫院診所說已經協調國內其他廠增加產能考慮廠商若有調整產線需要先完成測試評估現在做法是請國內廠商就可供應的規格盡量擴充生產並請醫療院所配合調整使用習慣\n醫療院所調整使用習慣是什麼意思叫開刀的不要開刀叫洗身的不要洗身叫用書意的都不要用嗎然後我們今天在講他講說國內藥廠欸結果現在到4月他們就知道這個問題拖到現在一兩個月了國內藥廠有辦法解決這個缺口嗎完全沒有你們現在對案和這個對策也是要進口\n拜託 你的食藥署什麼啦就政府用這個食藥署署長新政府還要繼續用那你就要為他們的所有責任都要承擔起來\n我現在跟你講部長,食藥署在5月20他們發佈一個我剛剛講的他說他們會積極調度停產的替代藥品確保供應穩定的新聞稿以後都沒有更新進度也沒有結果只有6月3號有嘛但是我現在跟你講喔,保證有你聽好喔,現在我剛才聽你白人問你其實是都\n五月二十一日、五月二十四日、五月二十九日、五月三十一日\n他們次長說提醒基層診所要上藥品短缺通報平臺食藥署會聯繫並提供服務然後還講到說5月29號公布了健保共理會要加開會議同意啟動緊急專案進口第一批輸液在6月10號前到貨食藥署評估專案期長短在於專案期這個\n要平時價格二到三倍支付所以你們緊急專案進口這都不是在政府的官方網站公佈的\n市長的臉書變成官方網站網頁了嗎?這種調度的重要資訊衛福部沒有食藥署沒有健保署網站新聞稿通通都沒有短缺藥品的重要訊息是發布是以市長個人的臉書粉專為準的嗎?現在是要看市長的臉書粉專是不是?現在是依市長的粉專\n為主政策發布的主要平台,是不是?當然是要以官方的...啊你們都沒有捏?都沒有捏?應該都有啊人民要問責,是要問責次長說你臉書什麼這樣?啊怎麼才是很多天?啊如果要問責是找次長的臉書,還是要找衛福部?\n市長的臉書發佈為主是不是?\n沒有啦 次長提醒你官網怎麼都沒有資料為什麼官網都沒有針對這幾個有相對應的新聞稿或資料呢不要在這裡說謊喔 藐視國會我是不主張抓起來關或是罰錢啦但是十一號署經常在這裡藐視國會署長曾經叫林淑芬時間倒了下去\n我是不會主張把你抓起來關啦 也不會主張用錢、罰錢給你解決啦但是藐視國會這種事情 衛福部、食藥署都壞心鬼\n現在食藥署對食安藥品的準則是怎麼樣?立委不動,我就不動。輿論不動,我就不動。現在不是咖吧?末梢神經循環有問題。現在是中樞神經傳導已經壞掉了。壞掉了。所以剛才還可以講到健保低價。所以這個是不是缺藥的理由?\n我對你說這個是我們回去檢討請問健保低價是缺藥的理由嗎?您的次長也不承認有這件事喔你們的次長5月20說在藥品價格的部分這一次因為違反GMP而停產的藥品過去9年我們都沒有調降它的價格而且藥廠也沒有在定期詢問價格調整機制表示說藥廠也沒有反應說想要調高藥價\n您的署長說的啊,署長臉書說的那我問你,次長臉書是代表官方立場是不是?他說的啊,有您食藥署推卸責任給藥價太低所以沒人要負責您的次長說藥價太低過去怎麼都沒人認我也沒給他們調降藥品價格請問我是要找誰問責啦人民藥問責要找誰,你告訴我次長的臉書\n我講這個是很嚴肅喔次長要個人 作秀我沒有意見但是你正式人你政府態度是什麼我人民要問責我要找誰保證現在要繼續亂下去嗎整個體制都混亂啦整個國家整個政府運作的體制現在是要怎麼做我再問你勒保證我們食藥署的藥品組昨天有來嗎\n藥品組主長有來嗎?沒有今天你知道大家會關心這個議題最重要藥品組都沒有來他過去有沒有整理統計國內藥品市佔率不均或者是原料益生短缺的藥品名單來有沒有\n來,依據藥事法27條之2規範的必要藥品481項但我不是在問你們必要藥品必要藥品本來就要管制、要盤點但我現在問題的是另外兩個第一個,市佔率不均當初如果放一間在做別人都不喜歡做的還有一種是原物料益生短缺有沒有啦?有沒有清單啊?\n我們之前在評估其實都有把這個考慮進去都放在我們的必要品清單裡面\n來資料拿出來 署長你如果要回答用麥克風列為會議記錄 然後你要馬上明天就把資料提交到我們辦公室因為你說你有做 我就相信你有做 明天在水搞出來 資料搞出來因為這份必要品清單是新的我不是在講必要品清單 我是跟你講書意是不是必要品\n蘇毅他不在必要品的清單上面啊你都搞不清楚蘇毅會在必要品清單上面嗎你連這個都不知道你當署長當幾年了蘇毅不在必要品清單裡面\n人民要找誰負責呢\n蘇義絕對不是必要品清單所以我跟你講了必要品清單是法律規定的你一定要好好的統計案盤點他有沒有問題可是這次出事的蘇義他就不是必要品清單所以我才跟你提點兩個第一個叫事戰不均第二個叫原料益生短缺永豐蘇義他是事戰不均的問題\n預防藥品因為施戰不均或原物料一生短缺的預警機制跟處理機制是什麼?有沒有?這兩項的統計就沒有啊!你跟我解釋一下你要怎麼預警機制跟處理機制有沒有?有沒有?有這種機制嗎?\n市政不均的跟原料一生短缺的有沒有預警機制和處理機制?沒有!現在你用麥克風回答,現在不是站在那裡委員幫你質詢,然後你又點點就可以轉過了!沒有!\n因為我們就是在必要品清單這邊來做評估那評估了以後有納進來的就說我們這不是必要品清單因為當時永豐的他其實他市佔率是40%所以我們如果以這樣子去算的話那還有其他的當時現在是七成過去曾經八成有六家好來你再告訴我市佔不均和原料醫生短缺的藥品名單的指標你覺得用什麼當指標\n因為市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺也不一定代表用量大有可能是有替代藥品啊那你有沒有研理指標應該定成什麼?你有沒有去書課過?你有沒有書課過?書訂 我想部長不知道你有沒有思考過市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺如果他用量不大而且有其他替代藥品也不會是問題啊那到底是要管制什麼啊哪些是要\n現在就是沒有替代品用量又很大出問題了\n所以你看,不是腳麻手麻麻,總是神經穿斗齁,都中風了,未定未當啦!所以今天以這個案例來看,你們4月就知道了就知道說他沒有獲得展言,沒有辦法繼續,因為永豐化學吃定了你政府,吃定了你S藥署,吃定了你衛福部,所以敢擺爛\n可是他擺爛你就這樣子一磅的爛啊你現在給他停產 這樣叫世新的不要世新 開刀的不要開刀 用書意的不要用書意嗎你們藥品組最重要藥品組的人沒有來 今天不用去用這季 今天點點都沒有事情藥品組沒有盤點市站不均或醫生短缺的 這個會產生問題的藥品\n所以你都說沒藥沒金,你沒藥沒金叫大家病患自求多福捏,緣木求雨捏我再說一下,你剛才署長你說永豐化學2015年出問題他不是只有2015年,他的不良紀錄也有,你的藥品組在做什麼\n2015年檢察院提出對食藥署提出糾正2021年他們也還是出問題他們做的生理實驗署都不合規定2023年的去年是戰率已經八成了他的生理實驗水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物背上遮出來還有黑色的懸浮物\n我們不要說這個個案啦!你們自己看看,你們整個食藥署都可以說因為價格太低,所以調高價格就不會有這個問題就北京也在做價格太低可以成為製造出這種問題的理由和藉口嗎?保證你們說看看\n我想人民的安全是第一,所以絕對不允許不管價格...人民的安全第一這口號我可以講,現在是政府做什麼,你的食藥署做什麼?你的食藥署覺得價格太低,覺得去跟健保署反映過\n建保署覺得你不來我聽到過嗎?政府是一體 這個問題就是沒人要做 會存一間壟斷 再做一篇 屢屢發生問題這種事情 你做政府的 現在還要有政府政府覺得去協調建保署說 這個問題長久不是辦法 要怎麼解決?\n五月二十九你們的次長說要啟動盤點高風險的藥廠管理負擔他五月二十九臉書啦然後人家採訪他啦\n他說高風險藥廠就是過去茶廠記錄曾經有嚴重缺失的藥廠那未來我們要盤點它未來可能要比較早一點介入這個事情我們未來會重點處理你覺得高風險藥廠的定義是什麼\n委員 那個林委員 因為時間已經超過了 那等一下還有一場要 我要講 我要講 我要講最後一段而已啦我補充一下啦 因為吼 有一個訊息是這樣啦 因為林市長他跟議會密合 他趕快要安撫議會的心 所以有時候他急著發臉書 大家知道要怎麼做 這是用心良苦\n這關這麼簡單都用發言書的喔 這麼簡單喔 大家都可以做 不用意啦 我現在跟你說啦 什麼叫高風險藥廠 你說不出來 你敢知道 過去的茶廠裡面 永豐化學 我們幫你討資料 你跟我們說的喔 永豐化學除了今年嚴重違反GMP之外 在過去6年 沒有任何違反藥事法的記錄\n但是有很多次都是用回收藥品草草結案這是你們的成科每一次藥廠都這樣明明就查到了不法都叫他們回收然後你們就不開法連股票上市的藥廠都可以製造劣質藥你們連行者也不敢啟動徒法不足以自刑\n所以高風險講大話,你如果要說這樣,他沒有違反過藥事法的紀錄,連這個永豐化學你要把它列為高風險,恐怕都還有疑慮高風險指標是什麼?沒錯,你要想一下,你要想要品的品質三項要素,安全、有效、品質\n上市前要查驗,上市後要管理。現在我聽說,我聽說,食藥署嚇到啊,事件這麼嚴重嚇到啊。所以上面有交代下面,例行性檢查、機動性查查、機查強度都要降低。把警鈴拔掉,然後就不會出問題。不查查就沒問題。\n有這件事嗎?你一定說沒有的。現在是要叫稽查組不要再去查。沒有稽查就沒有問題。眼不見為淨。是要這樣嗎?\n接下來請楊瓊英委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.631 --> 00:19.716\n我做一下宣告不好意思現在請林淑芬委員質詢那淑芬委員發言結束中午就休息30分鐘4分鐘我沒有要講8分鐘喔剛剛好孟凱就10幾分鐘了\n\n00:24.116 --> 00:37.964\n有啦,沒關係啦,我不是說你,我也是要說很久的啦。我只是在說,我沒有說到最後。好,那我重新宣告,現在請林淑芬委員質詢。楊瓊英委員質詢結束,我們就休息30分鐘。好,謝謝,可不可以請邱部長。請邱部長。\n\n00:48.927 --> 01:11.068\n委員好部長好我在這裡先和序聲明過去我們是好同事所以情誼沒問題但今天在這裡你已經不是同事關係你是部長然後我是受人民之托要來這裡監督政府的立委所以今天如果態度上如果有稍微嚴格之處那也請你理解那我現在講永豐化學這件事情\n\n01:11.909 --> 01:32.938\n他被你們停止製造那他的理由有三個第一個就是說產品檢驗涉及實驗數據造假而且實驗的數據完整性不足第二個他們的人員沒有辦法有效的執行產品義務檢查的作業也沒有落實承諾的改善措施執行例行作業第三個\n\n01:33.578 --> 01:49.729\n他們重複發生的調製偏差事件並沒有針對根本原因執行矯正預防措施等比如說他們的輸液裡面灌水灌很多有效性不足等等所以導致你們把它停產了七成\n\n01:52.611 --> 02:16.242\n市佔率7成．一個月150萬袋的輸益缺口在這裡但我今天要問你部長這個事情石耀署在5月20日發布了一個新聞他說我們石耀署積極調度永豐化學公司平產的替代藥品確保供應穩定這個新聞稿一發布以後現在進度怎麼樣沒有要進口\n\n02:19.949 --> 02:42.441\n市長說的誰有,他發布的就馬上飛過去了5月20,食藥署就只是聲明,只有聲明而已然後到6月3號缺藥平台發布了一個大包裝生理食鹽水供應方式前整個食藥署神明書店,現在這個書店你現在是沒有人可以贏了\n\n02:44.847 --> 03:08.045\n這件事早就要落台啊!我們如果沒有落台,你繼續因爲你在附近在這邊我問你5月20到6月3號兩個禮拜沒有足夠的輸液然後醫院裡面等著開刀的病人診所裡面需要的大家這些病患都在等等等因為你政府沒有對應的政策食藥署在那裡擺爛不然這樣還不行\n\n03:11.752 --> 03:22.304\n我想我們所有的相關的部門都真的是每天在努力啦努力請問你有沒有做出相對應解決缺藥的問題的政策520到6月3日之前通通都沒有看到\n\n03:28.482 --> 03:31.605\n當時成立缺藥平臺有三大目標缺藥平臺不是都要讓人發現欸缺藥平臺成立的目標第一個要解決第二個要緩解第三個要預防缺藥\n\n03:48.542 --> 04:17.205\n缺藥平台這三個功能完全沒有功用那我今天部長我也不是要針對這一次的個案我們是要跟你講回顧整個永豐化學的輸液事件食藥署在5月5月13日在缺藥平台公告了5月13就公告了輸液畸形短缺徵求有意願供應的廠商然後就沒有了什麼都沒有了\n\n04:17.952 --> 04:35.462\n整個事件是藥師公會發布新聞稿在5月18日指出各類的手術洗腎的透析醫院住院所必需的身體食鹽水葡萄糖等輸液出現缺藥是藥師公會然後去反映的\n\n04:36.463 --> 04:51.170\n他一直跟你們講說這樣會造成各大醫院開刀住院停擺然後洗腎的人怎麼辦結果呢5月13日你們就知道你們就跟我們說我們欠這個東西看誰有錢來跟我們說5月18日藥師就跟你們說說這會出問題搞不好你們需要想在5月18當天的回應是什麼你知道嗎部長\n\n05:00.729 --> 05:21.378\n5月18日施要署告訴這些公會跟這些醫院診所說已經協調國內其他廠增加產能考慮廠商若有調整產線需要先完成測試評估現在做法是請國內廠商就可供應的規格盡量擴充生產並請醫療院所配合調整使用習慣\n\n05:23.139 --> 05:30.581\n醫療院所調整使用習慣是什麼意思叫開刀的不要開刀叫洗身的不要洗身叫用書意的都不要用嗎然後我們今天在講他講說國內藥廠欸結果現在到4月他們就知道這個問題拖到現在一兩個月了國內藥廠有辦法解決這個缺口嗎完全沒有你們現在對案和這個對策也是要進口\n\n05:54.827 --> 06:08.832\n拜託你的食藥署什麼啦就政府用這個食藥署署長新政府還要繼續用那你就要為他們的所有責任都要承擔起來\n\n06:10.342 --> 06:24.670\n我現在跟你講部長,食藥署在5月20他們發佈一個我剛剛講的他說他們會積極調度停產的替代藥品確保供應穩定的新聞稿以後都沒有更新進度也沒有結果只有6月3號有嘛但是我現在跟你講喔,保證有你聽好喔,現在我剛才聽你白人問你其實是都\n\n06:36.428 --> 06:39.112\n五月二十一日、五月二十四日、五月二十九日、五月三十一日\n\n06:51.974 --> 07:17.290\n他們次長說提醒基層診所要上藥品短缺通報平臺食藥署會聯繫並提供服務然後還講到說5月29號公布了健保共理會要加開會議同意啟動緊急專案進口第一批輸液在6月10號前到貨食藥署評估專案期長短在於專案期這個\n\n07:19.091 --> 07:27.687\n要平時價格二到三倍支付所以你們緊急專案進口這都不是在政府的官方網站公佈的\n\n07:30.724 --> 07:49.690\n市長的臉書變成官方網站網頁了嗎?這種調度的重要資訊衛福部沒有食藥署沒有健保署網站新聞稿通通都沒有短缺藥品的重要訊息是發布是以市長個人的臉書粉專為準的嗎?現在是要看市長的臉書粉專是不是?現在是依市長的粉專\n\n07:59.569 --> 08:14.856\n為主政策發布的主要平台,是不是?當然是要以官方的...啊你們都沒有捏?都沒有捏?應該都有啊人民要問責,是要問責次長說你臉書什麼這樣?啊怎麼才是很多天?啊如果要問責是找次長的臉書,還是要找衛福部?\n\n08:22.509 --> 08:23.129\n市長的臉書發佈為主是不是?\n\n08:51.941 --> 09:01.184\n沒有啦次長提醒你官網怎麼都沒有資料為什麼官網都沒有針對這幾個有相對應的新聞稿或資料呢不要在這裡說謊喔藐視國會我是不主張抓起來關或是罰錢啦但是十一號署經常在這裡藐視國會署長曾經叫林淑芬時間倒了下去\n\n09:20.287 --> 09:30.973\n我是不會主張把你抓起來關啦也不會主張用錢、罰錢給你解決啦但是藐視國會這種事情衛福部、食藥署都壞心鬼\n\n09:32.165 --> 09:46.870\n現在食藥署對食安藥品的準則是怎麼樣?立委不動,我就不動。輿論不動,我就不動。現在不是咖吧?末梢神經循環有問題。現在是中樞神經傳導已經壞掉了。壞掉了。所以剛才還可以講到健保低價。所以這個是不是缺藥的理由?\n\n09:57.028 --> 10:22.479\n我對你說這個是我們回去檢討請問健保低價是缺藥的理由嗎?您的次長也不承認有這件事喔你們的次長5月20說在藥品價格的部分這一次因為違反GMP而停產的藥品過去9年我們都沒有調降它的價格而且藥廠也沒有在定期詢問價格調整機制表示說藥廠也沒有反應說想要調高藥價\n\n10:24.977 --> 10:31.499\n您的署長說的啊,署長臉書說的那我問你,次長臉書是代表官方立場是不是?他說的啊,有您食藥署推卸責任給藥價太低所以沒人要負責您的次長說藥價太低過去怎麼都沒人認我也沒給他們調降藥品價格請問我是要找誰問責啦人民藥問責要找誰,你告訴我次長的臉書\n\n10:57.591 --> 11:11.556\n我講這個是很嚴肅喔次長要個人作秀我沒有意見但是你正式人你政府態度是什麼我人民要問責我要找誰保證現在要繼續亂下去嗎整個體制都混亂啦整個國家整個政府運作的體制現在是要怎麼做我再問你勒保證我們食藥署的藥品組昨天有來嗎\n\n11:29.003 --> 11:47.090\n藥品組主長有來嗎?沒有今天你知道大家會關心這個議題最重要藥品組都沒有來他過去有沒有整理統計國內藥品市佔率不均或者是原料益生短缺的藥品名單來有沒有\n\n11:52.490 --> 12:19.108\n來,依據藥事法27條之2規範的必要藥品481項但我不是在問你們必要藥品必要藥品本來就要管制、要盤點但我現在問題的是另外兩個第一個,市佔率不均當初如果放一間在做別人都不喜歡做的還有一種是原物料益生短缺有沒有啦?有沒有清單啊?\n\n12:20.988 --> 12:25.135\n我們之前在評估其實都有把這個考慮進去都放在我們的必要品清單裡面\n\n12:31.373 --> 12:57.501\n來資料拿出來署長你如果要回答用麥克風列為會議記錄然後你要馬上明天就把資料提交到我們辦公室因為你說你有做我就相信你有做明天在水搞出來資料搞出來因為這份必要品清單是新的我不是在講必要品清單我是跟你講書意是不是必要品\n\n12:58.795 --> 13:18.874\n蘇毅他不在必要品的清單上面啊你都搞不清楚蘇毅會在必要品清單上面嗎你連這個都不知道你當署長當幾年了蘇毅不在必要品清單裡面\n\n13:21.670 --> 13:23.092\n人民要找誰負責呢\n\n13:39.086 --> 14:05.224\n蘇義絕對不是必要品清單所以我跟你講了必要品清單是法律規定的你一定要好好的統計案盤點他有沒有問題可是這次出事的蘇義他就不是必要品清單所以我才跟你提點兩個第一個叫事戰不均第二個叫原料益生短缺永豐蘇義他是事戰不均的問題\n\n14:07.185 --> 14:22.535\n預防藥品因為施戰不均或原物料一生短缺的預警機制跟處理機制是什麼?有沒有?這兩項的統計就沒有啊!你跟我解釋一下你要怎麼預警機制跟處理機制有沒有?有沒有?有這種機制嗎?\n\n14:29.068 --> 14:39.395\n市政不均的跟原料一生短缺的有沒有預警機制和處理機制?沒有!現在你用麥克風回答,現在不是站在那裡委員幫你質詢,然後你又點點就可以轉過了!沒有!\n\n14:44.378 --> 15:09.223\n因為我們就是在必要品清單這邊來做評估那評估了以後有納進來的就說我們這不是必要品清單因為當時永豐的他其實他市佔率是40%所以我們如果以這樣子去算的話那還有其他的當時現在是七成過去曾經八成有六家好來你再告訴我市佔不均和原料醫生短缺的藥品名單的指標你覺得用什麼當指標\n\n15:10.816 --> 15:39.384\n因為市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺也不一定代表用量大有可能是有替代藥品啊那你有沒有研理指標應該定成什麼?你有沒有去書課過?你有沒有書課過?書訂我想部長不知道你有沒有思考過市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺如果他用量不大而且有其他替代藥品也不會是問題啊那到底是要管制什麼啊哪些是要\n\n15:40.865 --> 15:42.206\n現在就是沒有替代品用量又很大出問題了\n\n16:12.321 --> 16:36.434\n所以你看,不是腳麻手麻麻,總是神經穿斗齁,都中風了,未定未當啦!所以今天以這個案例來看,你們4月就知道了就知道說他沒有獲得展言,沒有辦法繼續,因為永豐化學吃定了你政府,吃定了你S藥署,吃定了你衛福部,所以敢擺爛\n\n16:38.800 --> 16:45.345\n可是他擺爛你就這樣子一磅的爛啊你現在給他停產這樣叫世新的不要世新開刀的不要開刀用書意的不要用書意嗎你們藥品組最重要藥品組的人沒有來今天不用去用這季今天點點都沒有事情藥品組沒有盤點市站不均或醫生短缺的這個會產生問題的藥品\n\n17:02.819 --> 17:22.067\n所以你都說沒藥沒金,你沒藥沒金叫大家病患自求多福捏,緣木求雨捏我再說一下,你剛才署長你說永豐化學2015年出問題他不是只有2015年,他的不良紀錄也有,你的藥品組在做什麼\n\n17:24.275 --> 17:49.932\n2015年檢察院提出對食藥署提出糾正2021年他們也還是出問題他們做的生理實驗署都不合規定2023年的去年是戰率已經八成了他的生理實驗水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物背上遮出來還有黑色的懸浮物\n\n17:50.802 --> 17:58.168\n我們不要說這個個案啦!你們自己看看,你們整個食藥署都可以說因為價格太低,所以調高價格就不會有這個問題就北京也在做價格太低可以成為製造出這種問題的理由和藉口嗎?保證你們說看看\n\n18:10.450 --> 18:24.309\n我想人民的安全是第一,所以絕對不允許不管價格...人民的安全第一這口號我可以講,現在是政府做什麼,你的食藥署做什麼?你的食藥署覺得價格太低,覺得去跟健保署反映過\n\n18:25.350 --> 18:31.997\n建保署覺得你不來我聽到過嗎?政府是一體這個問題就是沒人要做會存一間壟斷再做一篇屢屢發生問題這種事情你做政府的現在還要有政府政府覺得去協調建保署說這個問題長久不是辦法要怎麼解決?\n\n18:46.872 --> 18:51.619\n五月二十九你們的次長說要啟動盤點高風險的藥廠管理負擔他五月二十九臉書啦然後人家採訪他啦\n\n19:03.095 --> 19:07.800\n他說高風險藥廠就是過去茶廠記錄曾經有嚴重缺失的藥廠那未來我們要盤點它未來可能要比較早一點介入這個事情我們未來會重點處理你覺得高風險藥廠的定義是什麼\n\n19:24.485 --> 19:46.962\n委員那個林委員因為時間已經超過了那等一下還有一場要我要講我要講我要講最後一段而已啦我補充一下啦因為吼有一個訊息是這樣啦因為林市長他跟議會密合他趕快要安撫議會的心所以有時候他急著發臉書大家知道要怎麼做這是用心良苦\n\n19:47.182 --> 19:53.125\n這關這麼簡單都用發言書的喔這麼簡單喔大家都可以做不用意啦我現在跟你說啦什麼叫高風險藥廠你說不出來你敢知道過去的茶廠裡面永豐化學我們幫你討資料你跟我們說的喔永豐化學除了今年嚴重違反GMP之外在過去6年沒有任何違反藥事法的記錄\n\n20:13.868 --> 20:18.269\n但是有很多次都是用回收藥品草草結案這是你們的成科每一次藥廠都這樣明明就查到了不法都叫他們回收然後你們就不開法連股票上市的藥廠都可以製造劣質藥你們連行者也不敢啟動徒法不足以自刑\n\n20:40.936 --> 21:02.187\n所以高風險講大話,你如果要說這樣,他沒有違反過藥事法的紀錄,連這個永豐化學你要把它列為高風險,恐怕都還有疑慮高風險指標是什麼?沒錯,你要想一下,你要想要品的品質三項要素,安全、有效、品質\n\n21:03.368 --> 21:30.353\n上市前要查驗,上市後要管理。現在我聽說,我聽說,食藥署嚇到啊,事件這麼嚴重嚇到啊。所以上面有交代下面,例行性檢查、機動性查查、機查強度都要降低。把警鈴拔掉,然後就不會出問題。不查查就沒問題。\n\n21:32.930 --> 21:41.177\n有這件事嗎?你一定說沒有的。現在是要叫稽查組不要再去查。沒有稽查就沒有問題。眼不見為淨。是要這樣嗎?\n\n21:44.955 --> 21:45.295\n接下來請楊瓊英委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.631,"end":19.716,"text":"我做一下宣告不好意思現在請林淑芬委員質詢那淑芬委員發言結束中午就休息30分鐘4分鐘我沒有要講8分鐘喔剛剛好孟凱就10幾分鐘了"},{"start":24.116,"end":37.964,"text":"有啦,沒關係啦,我不是說你,我也是要說很久的啦。我只是在說,我沒有說到最後。好,那我重新宣告,現在請林淑芬委員質詢。楊瓊英委員質詢結束,我們就休息30分鐘。好,謝謝,可不可以請邱部長。請邱部長。"},{"start":48.927,"end":71.068,"text":"委員好部長好我在這裡先和序聲明過去我們是好同事所以情誼沒問題但今天在這裡你已經不是同事關係你是部長然後我是受人民之托要來這裡監督政府的立委所以今天如果態度上如果有稍微嚴格之處那也請你理解那我現在講永豐化學這件事情"},{"start":71.909,"end":92.938,"text":"他被你們停止製造那他的理由有三個第一個就是說產品檢驗涉及實驗數據造假而且實驗的數據完整性不足第二個他們的人員沒有辦法有效的執行產品義務檢查的作業也沒有落實承諾的改善措施執行例行作業第三個"},{"start":93.578,"end":109.729,"text":"他們重複發生的調製偏差事件並沒有針對根本原因執行矯正預防措施等比如說他們的輸液裡面灌水灌很多有效性不足等等所以導致你們把它停產了七成"},{"start":112.611,"end":136.242,"text":"市佔率7成．一個月150萬袋的輸益缺口在這裡但我今天要問你部長 這個事情石耀署在5月20日發布了一個新聞他說我們石耀署積極調度永豐化學公司平產的替代藥品確保供應穩定 這個新聞稿一發布以後現在進度怎麼樣沒有 要進口"},{"start":139.949,"end":162.441,"text":"市長說的誰有,他發布的就馬上飛過去了5月20,食藥署就只是聲明,只有聲明而已然後到6月3號缺藥平台發布了一個大包裝生理食鹽水供應方式前整個食藥署神明書店,現在這個書店你現在是沒有人可以贏了"},{"start":164.847,"end":188.045,"text":"這件事早就要落台啊!我們如果沒有落台,你繼續因爲你在附近在這邊我問你5月20到6月3號兩個禮拜沒有足夠的輸液然後醫院裡面等著開刀的病人診所裡面需要的大家這些病患都在等等等因為你政府沒有對應的政策食藥署在那裡擺爛不然這樣還不行"},{"start":191.752,"end":202.304,"text":"我想我們所有的相關的部門都真的是每天在努力啦努力請問你有沒有做出相對應解決缺藥的問題的政策520到6月3日之前通通都沒有看到"},{"start":208.482,"end":211.605,"text":"當時成立缺藥平臺有三大目標缺藥平臺不是都要讓人發現欸缺藥平臺成立的目標第一個要解決第二個要緩解第三個要預防缺藥"},{"start":228.542,"end":257.205,"text":"缺藥平台這三個功能完全沒有功用那我今天部長我也不是要針對這一次的個案我們是要跟你講回顧整個永豐化學的輸液事件食藥署在5月5月13日在缺藥平台公告了5月13就公告了輸液畸形短缺徵求有意願供應的廠商然後就沒有了什麼都沒有了"},{"start":257.952,"end":275.462,"text":"整個事件是藥師公會發布新聞稿在5月18日指出各類的手術洗腎的透析醫院住院所必需的身體食鹽水葡萄糖等輸液出現缺藥是藥師公會然後去反映的"},{"start":276.463,"end":291.17,"text":"他一直跟你們講說這樣會造成各大醫院開刀住院停擺然後洗腎的人怎麼辦結果呢5月13日你們就知道你們就跟我們說我們欠這個東西看誰有錢來跟我們說5月18日藥師就跟你們說說這會出問題搞不好你們需要想在5月18當天的回應是什麼你知道嗎部長"},{"start":300.729,"end":321.378,"text":"5月18日施要署告訴這些公會跟這些醫院診所說已經協調國內其他廠增加產能考慮廠商若有調整產線需要先完成測試評估現在做法是請國內廠商就可供應的規格盡量擴充生產並請醫療院所配合調整使用習慣"},{"start":323.139,"end":330.581,"text":"醫療院所調整使用習慣是什麼意思叫開刀的不要開刀叫洗身的不要洗身叫用書意的都不要用嗎然後我們今天在講他講說國內藥廠欸結果現在到4月他們就知道這個問題拖到現在一兩個月了國內藥廠有辦法解決這個缺口嗎完全沒有你們現在對案和這個對策也是要進口"},{"start":354.827,"end":368.832,"text":"拜託 你的食藥署什麼啦就政府用這個食藥署署長新政府還要繼續用那你就要為他們的所有責任都要承擔起來"},{"start":370.342,"end":384.67,"text":"我現在跟你講部長,食藥署在5月20他們發佈一個我剛剛講的他說他們會積極調度停產的替代藥品確保供應穩定的新聞稿以後都沒有更新進度也沒有結果只有6月3號有嘛但是我現在跟你講喔,保證有你聽好喔,現在我剛才聽你白人問你其實是都"},{"start":396.428,"end":399.112,"text":"五月二十一日、五月二十四日、五月二十九日、五月三十一日"},{"start":411.974,"end":437.29,"text":"他們次長說提醒基層診所要上藥品短缺通報平臺食藥署會聯繫並提供服務然後還講到說5月29號公布了健保共理會要加開會議同意啟動緊急專案進口第一批輸液在6月10號前到貨食藥署評估專案期長短在於專案期這個"},{"start":439.091,"end":447.687,"text":"要平時價格二到三倍支付所以你們緊急專案進口這都不是在政府的官方網站公佈的"},{"start":450.724,"end":469.69,"text":"市長的臉書變成官方網站網頁了嗎?這種調度的重要資訊衛福部沒有食藥署沒有健保署網站新聞稿通通都沒有短缺藥品的重要訊息是發布是以市長個人的臉書粉專為準的嗎?現在是要看市長的臉書粉專是不是?現在是依市長的粉專"},{"start":479.569,"end":494.856,"text":"為主政策發布的主要平台,是不是?當然是要以官方的...啊你們都沒有捏?都沒有捏?應該都有啊人民要問責,是要問責次長說你臉書什麼這樣?啊怎麼才是很多天?啊如果要問責是找次長的臉書,還是要找衛福部?"},{"start":502.509,"end":503.129,"text":"市長的臉書發佈為主是不是?"},{"start":531.941,"end":541.184,"text":"沒有啦 次長提醒你官網怎麼都沒有資料為什麼官網都沒有針對這幾個有相對應的新聞稿或資料呢不要在這裡說謊喔 藐視國會我是不主張抓起來關或是罰錢啦但是十一號署經常在這裡藐視國會署長曾經叫林淑芬時間倒了下去"},{"start":560.287,"end":570.973,"text":"我是不會主張把你抓起來關啦 也不會主張用錢、罰錢給你解決啦但是藐視國會這種事情 衛福部、食藥署都壞心鬼"},{"start":572.165,"end":586.87,"text":"現在食藥署對食安藥品的準則是怎麼樣?立委不動,我就不動。輿論不動,我就不動。現在不是咖吧?末梢神經循環有問題。現在是中樞神經傳導已經壞掉了。壞掉了。所以剛才還可以講到健保低價。所以這個是不是缺藥的理由?"},{"start":597.028,"end":622.479,"text":"我對你說這個是我們回去檢討請問健保低價是缺藥的理由嗎?您的次長也不承認有這件事喔你們的次長5月20說在藥品價格的部分這一次因為違反GMP而停產的藥品過去9年我們都沒有調降它的價格而且藥廠也沒有在定期詢問價格調整機制表示說藥廠也沒有反應說想要調高藥價"},{"start":624.977,"end":631.499,"text":"您的署長說的啊,署長臉書說的那我問你,次長臉書是代表官方立場是不是?他說的啊,有您食藥署推卸責任給藥價太低所以沒人要負責您的次長說藥價太低過去怎麼都沒人認我也沒給他們調降藥品價格請問我是要找誰問責啦人民藥問責要找誰,你告訴我次長的臉書"},{"start":657.591,"end":671.556,"text":"我講這個是很嚴肅喔次長要個人 作秀我沒有意見但是你正式人你政府態度是什麼我人民要問責我要找誰保證現在要繼續亂下去嗎整個體制都混亂啦整個國家整個政府運作的體制現在是要怎麼做我再問你勒保證我們食藥署的藥品組昨天有來嗎"},{"start":689.003,"end":707.09,"text":"藥品組主長有來嗎?沒有今天你知道大家會關心這個議題最重要藥品組都沒有來他過去有沒有整理統計國內藥品市佔率不均或者是原料益生短缺的藥品名單來有沒有"},{"start":712.49,"end":739.108,"text":"來,依據藥事法27條之2規範的必要藥品481項但我不是在問你們必要藥品必要藥品本來就要管制、要盤點但我現在問題的是另外兩個第一個,市佔率不均當初如果放一間在做別人都不喜歡做的還有一種是原物料益生短缺有沒有啦?有沒有清單啊?"},{"start":740.988,"end":745.135,"text":"我們之前在評估其實都有把這個考慮進去都放在我們的必要品清單裡面"},{"start":751.373,"end":777.501,"text":"來資料拿出來 署長你如果要回答用麥克風列為會議記錄 然後你要馬上明天就把資料提交到我們辦公室因為你說你有做 我就相信你有做 明天在水搞出來 資料搞出來因為這份必要品清單是新的我不是在講必要品清單 我是跟你講書意是不是必要品"},{"start":778.795,"end":798.874,"text":"蘇毅他不在必要品的清單上面啊你都搞不清楚蘇毅會在必要品清單上面嗎你連這個都不知道你當署長當幾年了蘇毅不在必要品清單裡面"},{"start":801.67,"end":803.092,"text":"人民要找誰負責呢"},{"start":819.086,"end":845.224,"text":"蘇義絕對不是必要品清單所以我跟你講了必要品清單是法律規定的你一定要好好的統計案盤點他有沒有問題可是這次出事的蘇義他就不是必要品清單所以我才跟你提點兩個第一個叫事戰不均第二個叫原料益生短缺永豐蘇義他是事戰不均的問題"},{"start":847.185,"end":862.535,"text":"預防藥品因為施戰不均或原物料一生短缺的預警機制跟處理機制是什麼?有沒有?這兩項的統計就沒有啊!你跟我解釋一下你要怎麼預警機制跟處理機制有沒有?有沒有?有這種機制嗎?"},{"start":869.068,"end":879.395,"text":"市政不均的跟原料一生短缺的有沒有預警機制和處理機制?沒有!現在你用麥克風回答,現在不是站在那裡委員幫你質詢,然後你又點點就可以轉過了!沒有!"},{"start":884.378,"end":909.223,"text":"因為我們就是在必要品清單這邊來做評估那評估了以後有納進來的就說我們這不是必要品清單因為當時永豐的他其實他市佔率是40%所以我們如果以這樣子去算的話那還有其他的當時現在是七成過去曾經八成有六家好來你再告訴我市佔不均和原料醫生短缺的藥品名單的指標你覺得用什麼當指標"},{"start":910.816,"end":939.384,"text":"因為市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺也不一定代表用量大有可能是有替代藥品啊那你有沒有研理指標應該定成什麼?你有沒有去書課過?你有沒有書課過?書訂 我想部長不知道你有沒有思考過市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺如果他用量不大而且有其他替代藥品也不會是問題啊那到底是要管制什麼啊哪些是要"},{"start":940.865,"end":942.206,"text":"現在就是沒有替代品用量又很大出問題了"},{"start":972.321,"end":996.434,"text":"所以你看,不是腳麻手麻麻,總是神經穿斗齁,都中風了,未定未當啦!所以今天以這個案例來看,你們4月就知道了就知道說他沒有獲得展言,沒有辦法繼續,因為永豐化學吃定了你政府,吃定了你S藥署,吃定了你衛福部,所以敢擺爛"},{"start":998.8,"end":1005.345,"text":"可是他擺爛你就這樣子一磅的爛啊你現在給他停產 這樣叫世新的不要世新 開刀的不要開刀 用書意的不要用書意嗎你們藥品組最重要藥品組的人沒有來 今天不用去用這季 今天點點都沒有事情藥品組沒有盤點市站不均或醫生短缺的 這個會產生問題的藥品"},{"start":1022.819,"end":1042.067,"text":"所以你都說沒藥沒金,你沒藥沒金叫大家病患自求多福捏,緣木求雨捏我再說一下,你剛才署長你說永豐化學2015年出問題他不是只有2015年,他的不良紀錄也有,你的藥品組在做什麼"},{"start":1044.275,"end":1069.932,"text":"2015年檢察院提出對食藥署提出糾正2021年他們也還是出問題他們做的生理實驗署都不合規定2023年的去年是戰率已經八成了他的生理實驗水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物背上遮出來還有黑色的懸浮物"},{"start":1070.802,"end":1078.168,"text":"我們不要說這個個案啦!你們自己看看,你們整個食藥署都可以說因為價格太低,所以調高價格就不會有這個問題就北京也在做價格太低可以成為製造出這種問題的理由和藉口嗎?保證你們說看看"},{"start":1090.45,"end":1104.309,"text":"我想人民的安全是第一,所以絕對不允許不管價格...人民的安全第一這口號我可以講,現在是政府做什麼,你的食藥署做什麼?你的食藥署覺得價格太低,覺得去跟健保署反映過"},{"start":1105.35,"end":1111.997,"text":"建保署覺得你不來我聽到過嗎?政府是一體 這個問題就是沒人要做 會存一間壟斷 再做一篇 屢屢發生問題這種事情 你做政府的 現在還要有政府政府覺得去協調建保署說 這個問題長久不是辦法 要怎麼解決?"},{"start":1126.872,"end":1131.619,"text":"五月二十九你們的次長說要啟動盤點高風險的藥廠管理負擔他五月二十九臉書啦然後人家採訪他啦"},{"start":1143.095,"end":1147.8,"text":"他說高風險藥廠就是過去茶廠記錄曾經有嚴重缺失的藥廠那未來我們要盤點它未來可能要比較早一點介入這個事情我們未來會重點處理你覺得高風險藥廠的定義是什麼"},{"start":1164.485,"end":1186.962,"text":"委員 那個林委員 因為時間已經超過了 那等一下還有一場要 我要講 我要講 我要講最後一段而已啦我補充一下啦 因為吼 有一個訊息是這樣啦 因為林市長他跟議會密合 他趕快要安撫議會的心 所以有時候他急著發臉書 大家知道要怎麼做 這是用心良苦"},{"start":1187.182,"end":1193.125,"text":"這關這麼簡單都用發言書的喔 這麼簡單喔 大家都可以做 不用意啦 我現在跟你說啦 什麼叫高風險藥廠 你說不出來 你敢知道 過去的茶廠裡面 永豐化學 我們幫你討資料 你跟我們說的喔 永豐化學除了今年嚴重違反GMP之外 在過去6年 沒有任何違反藥事法的記錄"},{"start":1213.868,"end":1218.269,"text":"但是有很多次都是用回收藥品草草結案這是你們的成科每一次藥廠都這樣明明就查到了不法都叫他們回收然後你們就不開法連股票上市的藥廠都可以製造劣質藥你們連行者也不敢啟動徒法不足以自刑"},{"start":1240.936,"end":1262.187,"text":"所以高風險講大話,你如果要說這樣,他沒有違反過藥事法的紀錄,連這個永豐化學你要把它列為高風險,恐怕都還有疑慮高風險指標是什麼?沒錯,你要想一下,你要想要品的品質三項要素,安全、有效、品質"},{"start":1263.368,"end":1290.353,"text":"上市前要查驗,上市後要管理。現在我聽說,我聽說,食藥署嚇到啊,事件這麼嚴重嚇到啊。所以上面有交代下面,例行性檢查、機動性查查、機查強度都要降低。把警鈴拔掉,然後就不會出問題。不查查就沒問題。"},{"start":1292.93,"end":1301.177,"text":"有這件事嗎?你一定說沒有的。現在是要叫稽查組不要再去查。沒有稽查就沒有問題。眼不見為淨。是要這樣嗎?"},{"start":1304.955,"end":1305.295,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"}]}}}}