{"id":153640,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98444fddca9e423322155b271690f57e8efc6f3e651eb00659518ee6f291af3d525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:14:08 - 12:19:58","影片長度":"00:05:50","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T12:14:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:19:58+08:00","duration":350,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1178,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（12時14分）謝謝主席，有請刑事廳副廳長，謝謝。"],["主席：請刑事廳。"],["陳副廳長信旗：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。我快速的，因為我覺得今天這個有很多事情，我知道今天要逐條討論，本來有些東西我是逐條討論時要講的，但是我下午要去另外一個逐條討論，所以沒有辦法參加。我覺得這有2個問題，因為打詐專法牽涉的層面太廣，第一個問題是第三百三十九條之四，第一個，我直接用講的，因為簡報跑得有點慢，第三百三十九條之四本身就是加重詐欺，現在打詐專法是三人以上，加上利用境外機房詐騙者再加重二分之一，它等於是加重了2次二分之一，當然有2個疑點，第一個，在法定刑上面連續加重2次二分之一到底合不合宜？這是第一個。","第二個，3人以上這件事情，譬如說強盜或竊盜很多時候會有3人以上，因為它對身體有一定的危險性等等之類的。加重詐欺一開始就設定3人以上，我覺得本來就要打一個問號，這一次打詐專法又把這個跟機房2個加起來，這個看起來好像是要對應組織型犯罪，但是根據研究，如果是中國那邊的詐騙，組織型的很多，但是臺灣這邊的詐騙是組合型比較多，組合型就是可能一年就解散的那種詐騙集團。一年就解散的那種詐騙集團，它跟三人以上本來要加重的這個理由，其實有點不太合，所以我這邊建議，我不知道司法院的意見，就是在逐條討論時我們要不要稍微考慮一下，連續加重2次二分之一的問題和背後的理由到底充不充分？如果可以的話，逐條時各位能不能討論看看？這是第一個，就是加重二分之一這個部分，等一下逐條討論時，司法院本來的意見是怎樣？"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，我們認為這邊並沒有連續加重，因為它是刑分的特別規定。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但是第三百三十九條之四本身就是加重詐欺罪了。"],["陳副廳長信旗：第三百三十九條之四本身也是刑分的獨立規定，它並不是加重其刑的規定。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，它不是加重其刑，但是第三百三十九條之四已經比第三百三十九條更重了。我舉個例子，譬如說假設他今天只犯第三百三十九條，他沒有到加重詐欺，但是他詐騙的金額符合這次的打詐專法，因為他不是3人以上，所以他不會落入右邊這邊的加重，但是這個時候就會形成一個問題，因為按照原本的刑分規定，他沒有落入第三百三十九條之四，他就不會到這邊來，他只有5年以下，但是相較於這一個，只要是3人以上利用境外，他馬上就要加重二分之一，這會變成他犯罪的程度；如果是單純的第三百三十九條，然後金額又高的狀況，他反而又不會到這邊來，那就變成一邊加太多、一邊又不衡平，不衡平的這個事實，逐條時必須要告訴大家，不然這時就會有輕重失衡的問題。","前面有委員提到量刑的問題，我覺得這個可能不用到量刑，而是這邊的規定要思考一下。"],["陳副廳長信旗：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：這是第一個。第二個是假釋，我直接用講的，因為簡報跑得有點慢，有關減刑的規定，因為我們希望他能夠自首，對不對？所以它有減刑等等之類的規定。但是我們在假釋這邊，因為我們是用三振法案這個精神，這邊我有一個建議，因為今天假釋這件事情，到底它是該假釋？還是不要假釋？重點是在於他在監獄的表現嘛！所以他在監獄的表現跟他今天到底是犯了幾次的詐欺罪，這應該是分開的兩件事情，這是第一個。","第二個，我們都已經設計這樣的減刑規定，但是第3次時他一定不會想要來講，因為按照這樣的方式，他會落入假釋裡面的三振法案，一旦他進來的話，你設計的那個減刑規定第三次時就沒有作用，我不知道司法院或法務部這邊的立場，但是顯然的，在這邊利用類似之前強制治療的這種三振法案精神，其實它並不符合我們想要打詐的這件事情，不知道司法院這邊的意見如何？"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，畢竟假釋這部分是參考美國三振法案這個法制，這個法制到底妥不妥當？是不是適合？我覺得這各有說法，只是這次我們考量到，如果是一般電信詐欺的話，的確他再犯的可能性比較高，在再犯可能性比較高的情形下，他達到假釋門檻時是不是就可以假釋？還是要如同法務部所提出來的這個三振條款的規定？的確，這個有斟酌的餘地，但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為美國三振法案最初的精神是量刑加重，並不是假釋這邊，是我們移植時把它放到譬如強制治療等等之類的。"],["陳副廳長信旗：因為刑法第七十七條也有類似的規定。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但是再犯可能性這件事情，譬如他在獄中的表現等等之類的，它是綜合做判斷，所以我們不能夠預設立場，因為這等於是你一開始就預設他再犯的可能性，然後改變假釋的規定，其實這個在法理上聽起來是有點不通的，所以我覺得逐條討論時這件事情可能要考慮一下，因為我今天沒有辦法參與逐條討論，所以我希望這2件事情司法院能夠注意一下。謝謝！"],["陳副廳長信旗：瞭解，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢。","下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 292.26, \"end\": 292.48, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 292.48, \"end\": 292.5, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 293.081, \"end\": 318.826, \"text\": \"那這種災犯可能性比較高的情況之下是不是適合在一般的假釋門檻到的時候就可以假釋還是要如同說這個法務部這邊所提出來的這個三證條款的規定吼我們的確是會有一些斟酌的餘地啦但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理啦對因為美國三證最初的精神是在良心加重並不是在假釋這一邊是我們在移植的時候呢把它一直放到比如說強制治療啊等等之類的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 293.081, \"end\": 293.641, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"犯\", \"start\": 293.641, \"end\": 293.801, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 293.801, \"end\": 293.901, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 293.901, \"end\": 293.961, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 293.961, \"end\": 294.121, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 294.121, \"end\": 294.401, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 294.401, \"end\": 294.541, \"score\": 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\"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,290 --> 00:00:02,215\n謝謝主席。有請這個行事廳副廳長。謝謝。好。行事廳。\n\n2\n00:00:10,182 --> 00:00:11,202\n審查委員長\n\n3\n00:00:33,902 --> 00:00:58,408\n好第一個齁我先直接用講的好跑得有點慢就是說這一個因為3394它本身就是一個加重詐欺啦齁那現在打詐專法這一邊呢就是三人以上再加上利用境外激防詐騙這邊呢又再加重二分之一啦它等於是加重了兩次二分之一那我覺得這當然有兩個疑點第一個就是在法定刑上面連續加重兩次二分之一到底合不合宜齁這第一個第二個就是呢因為三人以上這件事情\n\n4\n00:00:59,088 --> 00:01:22,516\n在譬如說我們在強盜在竊盜他很多時候會有三人以上是因為他有一定的身體的危險性啊等等之類的齁那我們在交通詐欺一開始設計三人以上我覺得本來就應該要打一個問號在這一次打詐專法又把這個跟激防兩個加起來好像看起來是因為要對應組織型的犯罪但因為根據研究目前來講如果是中國那邊的詐騙組織型的很多\n\n5\n00:01:24,457 --> 00:01:53,216\n但在台灣的這邊的詐騙是組合型的比較多組合型就是那種他一年可能就解散的那種詐騙集團那一年就解散的那種詐騙集團他跟這種三人以上本來要加重的這個理由其實有點不太合所以我這邊是建議我覺得我不知道司法院這邊的意見那就在逐條的時候可能是要不要稍微考慮一下這種連續加重兩次二分之一的問題以及他背後的理由到底充不充分如果可以的話在逐條的時候看能不能跟各位討論看看\n\n6\n00:01:53,996 --> 00:02:00,464\n司法院本來這邊的意見大概是什麼樣子?這邊我們認為是他並沒有並沒有連續加重因為他其實就是一個行分的特別的規定\n\n7\n00:02:14,594 --> 00:02:38,847\n對,但因為339之四本身就已經是一個加重詐欺罪了。那339之四它本身也是一個行分的獨立的規定,它並不是說加重其刑的規定。對,它不是加重其刑,但是因為339之四它已經比339更重了嘛。所以我舉個例子,譬如說假設他今天是只犯339,他沒有到加重詐欺喔。但是他的金額本身呢,也是到這一個叫做什麼,詐騙行為,就是符合這次打詐專法。\n\n8\n00:02:40,947 --> 00:03:05,654\n他沒有在三年以上所以他不會落入到右邊這邊的家中那這個時候就會形成一個問題就是說他有可能按照原本的刑分的規定他沒有落入到339之次他就不會到這邊來所以他只有五年以下但是他相較於這一個呢只要是三年以上利用境外他馬上交通二分之一會變成說他其實他的那個犯罪的程度其實單純的339然後金額又高的狀況他反而又不會到這一邊來\n\n9\n00:03:06,995 --> 00:03:22,453\n一邊會加太多,一邊會不橫貧。這個不橫貧的事情可能在逐條的時候必須要把這樣的一個事實告訴大家,不然的話這個時候會有輕重失衡的問題。前面有委員提到良心的問題,但我覺得可能不要到良心,可能是在這邊的規定要思考一下。\n\n10\n00:03:24,216 --> 00:03:25,037\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n\n11\n00:03:43,972 --> 00:04:08,998\n假釋這一邊因為我們用了三政法案的一個精神那這邊我會有一個建議就是說呢因為今天假釋這件事情他到底該假釋還是不要假釋他的重點是在於他在監獄的表現嘛所以他的監獄的表現跟他今天到底是不是犯了幾次的詐欺罪這應該是分開的兩件事這是第一個第二個就是我們都設計了這樣的一個簡型的規定但他第三次的時候他一定不會想要來講啦\n\n12\n00:04:09,858 --> 00:04:33,059\n因為按照這樣的一個方式呢因為它會落入到假釋裡面的這種三證法案那它一旦進來的話那你設計那個檢刑規定在第三次的時候其實就沒有作用所以是不是我不知道司法院或法務部這邊的一個立場但是顯然在這邊利用這種類似那個之前的強制治療的這種三證法案的精神它其實不符合我們想要打詐這件事情那是不是不知道司法院這邊的意見是如何\n\n13\n00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:52,500\n副委員吼,因為畢竟假設這個部分是參考美國的三正法案的法制啦,那這個法制到底妥不妥當,是不是適合吼,我覺得各有說法啦,那只是說在這一次我們考量到說如果是一般的這個電信詐欺的話,的確他的再犯可能性是比較高的。\n\n14\n00:04:53,081 --> 00:05:18,826\n那這種災犯可能性比較高的情況之下是不是適合在一般的假釋門檻到的時候就可以假釋還是要如同說這個法務部這邊所提出來的這個三證條款的規定吼我們的確是會有一些斟酌的餘地啦但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理啦對因為美國三證最初的精神是在良心加重並不是在假釋這一邊是我們在移植的時候呢把它一直放到比如說強制治療啊等等之類的\n\n15\n00:05:19,626 --> 00:05:46,386\n因為刑法第77條也有類似的規定。但是在犯可能性這件事情,它跟它譬如說在獄中的表現等等之類的,它是綜合做判斷嘛。所以我們不能夠預設立場,因為這等於是在你在一開始的時候預設立場它的在犯可能性,然後它在假設的規定作為改變。那這個其實在法理上聽起來是有點不同的啦。所以我覺得在逐條的時候這件事情可能要考慮一下,因為我今天沒有辦法討論逐條。所以就是這兩件事情希望司法院能夠注意一下。\n\n16\n00:05:46,846 --> 00:05:47,369\n審判決定。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n290\t2215\t謝謝主席。有請這個行事廳副廳長。謝謝。好。行事廳。\n10182\t11202\t審查委員長\n33902\t58408\t好 第一個齁 我先直接用講的 好 跑得有點慢就是說 這一個 因為3394它本身就是一個加重詐欺啦齁那現在打詐專法這一邊呢 就是三人以上再加上利用境外激防詐騙這邊呢 又再加重二分之一啦它等於是加重了兩次二分之一 那我覺得這當然有兩個疑點第一個就是 在法定刑上面連續加重兩次二分之一到底合不合宜齁 這第一個第二個就是呢 因為三人以上這件事情\n59088\t82516\t在 譬如說我們在強盜在竊盜他很多時候會有三人以上是因為他有一定的身體的危險性啊等等之類的齁那我們在交通詐欺一開始設計三人以上我覺得本來就應該要打一個問號在這一次打詐專法又把這個跟激防兩個加起來好像看起來是因為要對應組織型的犯罪但因為根據研究目前來講如果是中國那邊的詐騙組織型的很多\n84457\t113216\t但在台灣的這邊的詐騙是組合型的比較多組合型就是那種他一年可能就解散的那種詐騙集團那一年就解散的那種詐騙集團他跟這種三人以上本來要加重的這個理由其實有點不太合所以我這邊是建議我覺得我不知道司法院這邊的意見那就在逐條的時候可能是要不要稍微考慮一下這種連續加重兩次二分之一的問題以及他背後的理由到底充不充分如果可以的話在逐條的時候看能不能跟各位討論看看\n113996\t120464\t司法院本來這邊的意見大概是什麼樣子?這邊我們認為是他並沒有並沒有連續加重因為他其實就是一個行分的特別的規定\n134594\t158847\t對,但因為339之四本身就已經是一個加重詐欺罪了。那339之四它本身也是一個行分的獨立的規定,它並不是說加重其刑的規定。對,它不是加重其刑,但是因為339之四它已經比339更重了嘛。所以我舉個例子,譬如說假設他今天是只犯339,他沒有到加重詐欺喔。但是他的金額本身呢,也是到這一個叫做什麼,詐騙行為,就是符合這次打詐專法。\n160947\t185654\t他沒有在三年以上所以他不會落入到右邊這邊的家中那這個時候就會形成一個問題就是說他有可能按照原本的刑分的規定他沒有落入到339之次他就不會到這邊來所以他只有五年以下但是他相較於這一個呢只要是三年以上利用境外他馬上交通二分之一會變成說他其實他的那個犯罪的程度其實單純的339然後金額又高的狀況他反而又不會到這一邊來\n186995\t202453\t一邊會加太多,一邊會不橫貧。這個不橫貧的事情可能在逐條的時候必須要把這樣的一個事實告訴大家,不然的話這個時候會有輕重失衡的問題。前面有委員提到良心的問題,但我覺得可能不要到良心,可能是在這邊的規定要思考一下。\n204216\t205037\t審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n223972\t248998\t假釋這一邊 因為我們用了三政法案的一個精神那這邊我會有一個建議就是說呢因為今天假釋這件事情他到底該假釋還是不要假釋他的重點是在於他在監獄的表現嘛所以他的監獄的表現跟他今天到底是不是犯了幾次的詐欺罪這應該是分開的兩件事這是第一個第二個就是我們都設計了這樣的一個簡型的規定但他第三次的時候他一定不會想要來講啦\n249858\t273059\t因為按照這樣的一個方式呢因為它會落入到假釋裡面的這種三證法案那它一旦進來的話那你設計那個檢刑規定在第三次的時候其實就沒有作用所以是不是我不知道司法院或法務部這邊的一個立場但是顯然在這邊利用這種類似那個之前的強制治療的這種三證法案的精神它其實不符合我們想要打詐這件事情那是不是不知道司法院這邊的意見是如何\n274040\t292500\t副委員吼,因為畢竟假設這個部分是參考美國的三正法案的法制啦,那這個法制到底妥不妥當,是不是適合吼,我覺得各有說法啦,那只是說在這一次我們考量到說如果是一般的這個電信詐欺的話,的確他的再犯可能性是比較高的。\n293081\t318826\t那這種災犯可能性比較高的情況之下是不是適合在一般的假釋門檻到的時候就可以假釋還是要如同說這個法務部這邊所提出來的這個三證條款的規定吼我們的確是會有一些斟酌的餘地啦但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理啦對因為美國三證最初的精神是在良心加重並不是在假釋這一邊是我們在移植的時候呢把它一直放到比如說強制治療啊等等之類的\n319626\t346386\t因為刑法第77條也有類似的規定。但是在犯可能性這件事情,它跟它譬如說在獄中的表現等等之類的,它是綜合做判斷嘛。所以我們不能夠預設立場,因為這等於是在你在一開始的時候預設立場它的在犯可能性,然後它在假設的規定作為改變。那這個其實在法理上聽起來是有點不同的啦。所以我覺得在逐條的時候這件事情可能要考慮一下,因為我今天沒有辦法討論逐條。所以就是這兩件事情希望司法院能夠注意一下。\n346846\t347369\t審判決定。\n","txt":"謝謝主席。有請這個行事廳副廳長。謝謝。好。行事廳。\n審查委員長\n好 第一個齁 我先直接用講的 好 跑得有點慢就是說 這一個 因為3394它本身就是一個加重詐欺啦齁那現在打詐專法這一邊呢 就是三人以上再加上利用境外激防詐騙這邊呢 又再加重二分之一啦它等於是加重了兩次二分之一 那我覺得這當然有兩個疑點第一個就是 在法定刑上面連續加重兩次二分之一到底合不合宜齁 這第一個第二個就是呢 因為三人以上這件事情\n在 譬如說我們在強盜在竊盜他很多時候會有三人以上是因為他有一定的身體的危險性啊等等之類的齁那我們在交通詐欺一開始設計三人以上我覺得本來就應該要打一個問號在這一次打詐專法又把這個跟激防兩個加起來好像看起來是因為要對應組織型的犯罪但因為根據研究目前來講如果是中國那邊的詐騙組織型的很多\n但在台灣的這邊的詐騙是組合型的比較多組合型就是那種他一年可能就解散的那種詐騙集團那一年就解散的那種詐騙集團他跟這種三人以上本來要加重的這個理由其實有點不太合所以我這邊是建議我覺得我不知道司法院這邊的意見那就在逐條的時候可能是要不要稍微考慮一下這種連續加重兩次二分之一的問題以及他背後的理由到底充不充分如果可以的話在逐條的時候看能不能跟各位討論看看\n司法院本來這邊的意見大概是什麼樣子?這邊我們認為是他並沒有並沒有連續加重因為他其實就是一個行分的特別的規定\n對,但因為339之四本身就已經是一個加重詐欺罪了。那339之四它本身也是一個行分的獨立的規定,它並不是說加重其刑的規定。對,它不是加重其刑,但是因為339之四它已經比339更重了嘛。所以我舉個例子,譬如說假設他今天是只犯339,他沒有到加重詐欺喔。但是他的金額本身呢,也是到這一個叫做什麼,詐騙行為,就是符合這次打詐專法。\n他沒有在三年以上所以他不會落入到右邊這邊的家中那這個時候就會形成一個問題就是說他有可能按照原本的刑分的規定他沒有落入到339之次他就不會到這邊來所以他只有五年以下但是他相較於這一個呢只要是三年以上利用境外他馬上交通二分之一會變成說他其實他的那個犯罪的程度其實單純的339然後金額又高的狀況他反而又不會到這一邊來\n一邊會加太多,一邊會不橫貧。這個不橫貧的事情可能在逐條的時候必須要把這樣的一個事實告訴大家,不然的話這個時候會有輕重失衡的問題。前面有委員提到良心的問題,但我覺得可能不要到良心,可能是在這邊的規定要思考一下。\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n假釋這一邊 因為我們用了三政法案的一個精神那這邊我會有一個建議就是說呢因為今天假釋這件事情他到底該假釋還是不要假釋他的重點是在於他在監獄的表現嘛所以他的監獄的表現跟他今天到底是不是犯了幾次的詐欺罪這應該是分開的兩件事這是第一個第二個就是我們都設計了這樣的一個簡型的規定但他第三次的時候他一定不會想要來講啦\n因為按照這樣的一個方式呢因為它會落入到假釋裡面的這種三證法案那它一旦進來的話那你設計那個檢刑規定在第三次的時候其實就沒有作用所以是不是我不知道司法院或法務部這邊的一個立場但是顯然在這邊利用這種類似那個之前的強制治療的這種三證法案的精神它其實不符合我們想要打詐這件事情那是不是不知道司法院這邊的意見是如何\n副委員吼,因為畢竟假設這個部分是參考美國的三正法案的法制啦,那這個法制到底妥不妥當,是不是適合吼,我覺得各有說法啦,那只是說在這一次我們考量到說如果是一般的這個電信詐欺的話,的確他的再犯可能性是比較高的。\n那這種災犯可能性比較高的情況之下是不是適合在一般的假釋門檻到的時候就可以假釋還是要如同說這個法務部這邊所提出來的這個三證條款的規定吼我們的確是會有一些斟酌的餘地啦但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理啦對因為美國三證最初的精神是在良心加重並不是在假釋這一邊是我們在移植的時候呢把它一直放到比如說強制治療啊等等之類的\n因為刑法第77條也有類似的規定。但是在犯可能性這件事情,它跟它譬如說在獄中的表現等等之類的,它是綜合做判斷嘛。所以我們不能夠預設立場,因為這等於是在你在一開始的時候預設立場它的在犯可能性,然後它在假設的規定作為改變。那這個其實在法理上聽起來是有點不同的啦。所以我覺得在逐條的時候這件事情可能要考慮一下,因為我今天沒有辦法討論逐條。所以就是這兩件事情希望司法院能夠注意一下。\n審判決定。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.290 --> 00:02.215\n謝謝主席。有請這個行事廳副廳長。謝謝。好。行事廳。\n\n00:10.182 --> 00:11.202\n審查委員長\n\n00:33.902 --> 00:58.408\n好第一個齁我先直接用講的好跑得有點慢就是說這一個因為3394它本身就是一個加重詐欺啦齁那現在打詐專法這一邊呢就是三人以上再加上利用境外激防詐騙這邊呢又再加重二分之一啦它等於是加重了兩次二分之一那我覺得這當然有兩個疑點第一個就是在法定刑上面連續加重兩次二分之一到底合不合宜齁這第一個第二個就是呢因為三人以上這件事情\n\n00:59.088 --> 01:22.516\n在譬如說我們在強盜在竊盜他很多時候會有三人以上是因為他有一定的身體的危險性啊等等之類的齁那我們在交通詐欺一開始設計三人以上我覺得本來就應該要打一個問號在這一次打詐專法又把這個跟激防兩個加起來好像看起來是因為要對應組織型的犯罪但因為根據研究目前來講如果是中國那邊的詐騙組織型的很多\n\n01:24.457 --> 01:53.216\n但在台灣的這邊的詐騙是組合型的比較多組合型就是那種他一年可能就解散的那種詐騙集團那一年就解散的那種詐騙集團他跟這種三人以上本來要加重的這個理由其實有點不太合所以我這邊是建議我覺得我不知道司法院這邊的意見那就在逐條的時候可能是要不要稍微考慮一下這種連續加重兩次二分之一的問題以及他背後的理由到底充不充分如果可以的話在逐條的時候看能不能跟各位討論看看\n\n01:53.996 --> 02:00.464\n司法院本來這邊的意見大概是什麼樣子?這邊我們認為是他並沒有並沒有連續加重因為他其實就是一個行分的特別的規定\n\n02:14.594 --> 02:38.847\n對,但因為339之四本身就已經是一個加重詐欺罪了。那339之四它本身也是一個行分的獨立的規定,它並不是說加重其刑的規定。對,它不是加重其刑,但是因為339之四它已經比339更重了嘛。所以我舉個例子,譬如說假設他今天是只犯339,他沒有到加重詐欺喔。但是他的金額本身呢,也是到這一個叫做什麼,詐騙行為,就是符合這次打詐專法。\n\n02:40.947 --> 03:05.654\n他沒有在三年以上所以他不會落入到右邊這邊的家中那這個時候就會形成一個問題就是說他有可能按照原本的刑分的規定他沒有落入到339之次他就不會到這邊來所以他只有五年以下但是他相較於這一個呢只要是三年以上利用境外他馬上交通二分之一會變成說他其實他的那個犯罪的程度其實單純的339然後金額又高的狀況他反而又不會到這一邊來\n\n03:06.995 --> 03:22.453\n一邊會加太多,一邊會不橫貧。這個不橫貧的事情可能在逐條的時候必須要把這樣的一個事實告訴大家,不然的話這個時候會有輕重失衡的問題。前面有委員提到良心的問題,但我覺得可能不要到良心,可能是在這邊的規定要思考一下。\n\n03:24.216 --> 03:25.037\n審查委員陳亭妃等16人\n\n03:43.972 --> 04:08.998\n假釋這一邊因為我們用了三政法案的一個精神那這邊我會有一個建議就是說呢因為今天假釋這件事情他到底該假釋還是不要假釋他的重點是在於他在監獄的表現嘛所以他的監獄的表現跟他今天到底是不是犯了幾次的詐欺罪這應該是分開的兩件事這是第一個第二個就是我們都設計了這樣的一個簡型的規定但他第三次的時候他一定不會想要來講啦\n\n04:09.858 --> 04:33.059\n因為按照這樣的一個方式呢因為它會落入到假釋裡面的這種三證法案那它一旦進來的話那你設計那個檢刑規定在第三次的時候其實就沒有作用所以是不是我不知道司法院或法務部這邊的一個立場但是顯然在這邊利用這種類似那個之前的強制治療的這種三證法案的精神它其實不符合我們想要打詐這件事情那是不是不知道司法院這邊的意見是如何\n\n04:34.040 --> 04:52.500\n副委員吼,因為畢竟假設這個部分是參考美國的三正法案的法制啦,那這個法制到底妥不妥當,是不是適合吼,我覺得各有說法啦,那只是說在這一次我們考量到說如果是一般的這個電信詐欺的話,的確他的再犯可能性是比較高的。\n\n04:53.081 --> 05:18.826\n那這種災犯可能性比較高的情況之下是不是適合在一般的假釋門檻到的時候就可以假釋還是要如同說這個法務部這邊所提出來的這個三證條款的規定吼我們的確是會有一些斟酌的餘地啦但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理啦對因為美國三證最初的精神是在良心加重並不是在假釋這一邊是我們在移植的時候呢把它一直放到比如說強制治療啊等等之類的\n\n05:19.626 --> 05:46.386\n因為刑法第77條也有類似的規定。但是在犯可能性這件事情,它跟它譬如說在獄中的表現等等之類的,它是綜合做判斷嘛。所以我們不能夠預設立場,因為這等於是在你在一開始的時候預設立場它的在犯可能性,然後它在假設的規定作為改變。那這個其實在法理上聽起來是有點不同的啦。所以我覺得在逐條的時候這件事情可能要考慮一下,因為我今天沒有辦法討論逐條。所以就是這兩件事情希望司法院能夠注意一下。\n\n05:46.846 --> 05:47.369\n審判決定。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.29,"end":2.215,"text":"謝謝主席。有請這個行事廳副廳長。謝謝。好。行事廳。"},{"start":10.182,"end":11.202,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":33.902,"end":58.408,"text":"好 第一個齁 我先直接用講的 好 跑得有點慢就是說 這一個 因為3394它本身就是一個加重詐欺啦齁那現在打詐專法這一邊呢 就是三人以上再加上利用境外激防詐騙這邊呢 又再加重二分之一啦它等於是加重了兩次二分之一 那我覺得這當然有兩個疑點第一個就是 在法定刑上面連續加重兩次二分之一到底合不合宜齁 這第一個第二個就是呢 因為三人以上這件事情"},{"start":59.088,"end":82.516,"text":"在 譬如說我們在強盜在竊盜他很多時候會有三人以上是因為他有一定的身體的危險性啊等等之類的齁那我們在交通詐欺一開始設計三人以上我覺得本來就應該要打一個問號在這一次打詐專法又把這個跟激防兩個加起來好像看起來是因為要對應組織型的犯罪但因為根據研究目前來講如果是中國那邊的詐騙組織型的很多"},{"start":84.457,"end":113.216,"text":"但在台灣的這邊的詐騙是組合型的比較多組合型就是那種他一年可能就解散的那種詐騙集團那一年就解散的那種詐騙集團他跟這種三人以上本來要加重的這個理由其實有點不太合所以我這邊是建議我覺得我不知道司法院這邊的意見那就在逐條的時候可能是要不要稍微考慮一下這種連續加重兩次二分之一的問題以及他背後的理由到底充不充分如果可以的話在逐條的時候看能不能跟各位討論看看"},{"start":113.996,"end":120.464,"text":"司法院本來這邊的意見大概是什麼樣子?這邊我們認為是他並沒有並沒有連續加重因為他其實就是一個行分的特別的規定"},{"start":134.594,"end":158.847,"text":"對,但因為339之四本身就已經是一個加重詐欺罪了。那339之四它本身也是一個行分的獨立的規定,它並不是說加重其刑的規定。對,它不是加重其刑,但是因為339之四它已經比339更重了嘛。所以我舉個例子,譬如說假設他今天是只犯339,他沒有到加重詐欺喔。但是他的金額本身呢,也是到這一個叫做什麼,詐騙行為,就是符合這次打詐專法。"},{"start":160.947,"end":185.654,"text":"他沒有在三年以上所以他不會落入到右邊這邊的家中那這個時候就會形成一個問題就是說他有可能按照原本的刑分的規定他沒有落入到339之次他就不會到這邊來所以他只有五年以下但是他相較於這一個呢只要是三年以上利用境外他馬上交通二分之一會變成說他其實他的那個犯罪的程度其實單純的339然後金額又高的狀況他反而又不會到這一邊來"},{"start":186.995,"end":202.453,"text":"一邊會加太多,一邊會不橫貧。這個不橫貧的事情可能在逐條的時候必須要把這樣的一個事實告訴大家,不然的話這個時候會有輕重失衡的問題。前面有委員提到良心的問題,但我覺得可能不要到良心,可能是在這邊的規定要思考一下。"},{"start":204.216,"end":205.037,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":223.972,"end":248.998,"text":"假釋這一邊 因為我們用了三政法案的一個精神那這邊我會有一個建議就是說呢因為今天假釋這件事情他到底該假釋還是不要假釋他的重點是在於他在監獄的表現嘛所以他的監獄的表現跟他今天到底是不是犯了幾次的詐欺罪這應該是分開的兩件事這是第一個第二個就是我們都設計了這樣的一個簡型的規定但他第三次的時候他一定不會想要來講啦"},{"start":249.858,"end":273.059,"text":"因為按照這樣的一個方式呢因為它會落入到假釋裡面的這種三證法案那它一旦進來的話那你設計那個檢刑規定在第三次的時候其實就沒有作用所以是不是我不知道司法院或法務部這邊的一個立場但是顯然在這邊利用這種類似那個之前的強制治療的這種三證法案的精神它其實不符合我們想要打詐這件事情那是不是不知道司法院這邊的意見是如何"},{"start":274.04,"end":292.5,"text":"副委員吼,因為畢竟假設這個部分是參考美國的三正法案的法制啦,那這個法制到底妥不妥當,是不是適合吼,我覺得各有說法啦,那只是說在這一次我們考量到說如果是一般的這個電信詐欺的話,的確他的再犯可能性是比較高的。"},{"start":293.081,"end":318.826,"text":"那這種災犯可能性比較高的情況之下是不是適合在一般的假釋門檻到的時候就可以假釋還是要如同說這個法務部這邊所提出來的這個三證條款的規定吼我們的確是會有一些斟酌的餘地啦但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理啦對因為美國三證最初的精神是在良心加重並不是在假釋這一邊是我們在移植的時候呢把它一直放到比如說強制治療啊等等之類的"},{"start":319.626,"end":346.386,"text":"因為刑法第77條也有類似的規定。但是在犯可能性這件事情,它跟它譬如說在獄中的表現等等之類的,它是綜合做判斷嘛。所以我們不能夠預設立場,因為這等於是在你在一開始的時候預設立場它的在犯可能性,然後它在假設的規定作為改變。那這個其實在法理上聽起來是有點不同的啦。所以我覺得在逐條的時候這件事情可能要考慮一下,因為我今天沒有辦法討論逐條。所以就是這兩件事情希望司法院能夠注意一下。"},{"start":346.846,"end":347.369,"text":"審判決定。"}]}}}}