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09:16:50","影片長度":"00:08:34","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:08:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:16:50+08:00","duration":514,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":183,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（9時8分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：盧委員早。"],["盧委員縣一：彭部長早安。我想先問你一個問題，目前國內合法的BOT水力電廠有哪些？"],["彭部長啓明：BOT的，我所知道的有一個民間的水力電廠，還有幾個，我比較熟悉的是那個。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，我在上個月的5月20號去了花蓮卓溪，因為那邊的鄉親跟我說有環評的問題以及一些部落同意的問題，所以我去看了一下，當時的現勘是這樣一個環境，這是太平村旁邊那個河流，主要的爭議點是這樣的，在1999年就完成了環境評估，然後到現在已經2024年，那麼多年了都還沒有動工。根據環評法第十六條之一規定，三年內如果沒有開工的話，就必須做環差。他們在2007年有補做，2007年到現在2024年也過了十幾年的時間，所以我想請問你對這個部分有什麼看法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，有關這個部分，其實依照目前的環境影響評估法，它還是可以繼續進行，但是我們有考量到相關很多包含環團的建議，應該有再次提出環差分析的機制，所以就這部分我們會研議，在適當的時機修法來修正這些事情。"],["盧委員縣一：我們知道1999年到現在，至少經歷了一次莫拉克，還有最近的一個大地震，花蓮也是地震帶，如果逾三年要開發，只要完成一次環差，然後就終身適用，一次使用、永遠適用，那這樣會不會不合理？這部分是不是有需要修改之處，你認為呢？"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個的確是，如果以環團的建議，我個人非常贊同，但是目前依照環境影響評估法的確是適用的，所以我們的確，我在下半年會有一個環境影響評估的總體檢，我們會把這個納入考慮。"],["盧委員縣一：諮商同意的部分，因為它本身是就卓溪鄉作為諮商同意的對象，結果不是鄰近的村莊或者是有關係的村莊，它也做了諮商同意，我覺得有必要做到全鄉的諮商同意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上還是要看原鄉，這部分可不可以請我們司長來說明。"],["蔡司長孟裕：謝謝委員，這個部分還是要看原住民基本法裡面的規範……"],["盧委員縣一：因為它本身是一個狹長型的鄉，可能從前面到後面的有二十幾將近三十公里，可是真正影響的是那兩個村莊，應該是只做這兩個村莊，而不是做全鄉的，不是嗎？如果說有相對，或者說以後有類似這樣的狀況，是以地緣性來看，可以嗎？"],["蔡司長孟裕：這部分我們來跟原住民委員會洽商，看看有關於諮商範圍這部分能不能做一些調整。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我想知道，有關第十六條之一這個三年的條款，然後他是利用這個環差來通過嗎？以後他還是可以繼續動工嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：按照目前的法令的確是，但是我覺得委員提到的意見非常好，因為其實這部分不是只有您，環團也給我們提出這樣的看法，所以我們年底會有一個……"],["盧委員縣一：我知道他們也有上法院，也敗訴了。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：好，只是我還是要跟你們提出地方的意見。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["盧委員縣一：第二個就是前幾天關於我們原住民的好消息，6月4號通過原住民保留地禁伐補償每公頃6萬塊，那在這邊跟你提一下，我在競選期間的十二大政見裡面有提到「推動原住民族森林碳匯」這部分。我們的目標是2050年要淨零碳排，在氣候變遷因應法的第五條有提到原住民族的權益，其中第八款明定「為推動自然碳匯，政府應與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內之自然碳匯，該區域內新增碳匯之相關權益應與原住民族共享」。每公頃6萬塊這部分在廣泛討論的時候，我有提到一個數據，就是2001年英國倫敦學院的Doctor Pearce，他當時是所謂的環境經濟學家，他說那時候原始林的價值大概在1公頃2,000美金，也就是6萬塊臺幣，那是2001年，所以我是用這個數據才提出每公頃6萬塊的禁伐補償。","未來有關碳權這部分，因為我們現在才剛剛起步，去年8月7號才揭牌的碳權交易所裡面沒有原住民的人員擔任所謂的諮詢委員，希望無論是屆期或是希望近期在開會的時候，能不能納入我們原住民的代表在裡面。因為我們原住民目前有大概27萬公頃的原住民保留地，現在申請到禁伐補償的大概有7.2萬公頃，所以這個部分在碳權的比例上面，你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實在我們內閣會議的時候，我有跟原住民族委員會的主委提到這個問題，因為現在國有地要算是碳權的部分，真的有點困難，所以這個要有一些解釋還有突破。我有跟他說，因為在全球氣候會議裡面，原住民都扮演一個很重要的角色，所以我也特別跟他提到說，我們是不是共同跨部會來商量這個問題。另外，因為森林碳匯涉及到農業部的認定跟我們環境部的許可，所以這個部分，我們的確會跨部會，包含原住民族委員會，還有農業部，還有環境部三個部會會一起來處理。"],["盧委員縣一：那你覺得未來我們族人有機會從中分享它的利益嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我認為長期來看的確要考量到原住民，因為原住民是公平正義，但是以現有的法規，在國有地要取得碳權的部分，的確是非常困難的。"],["盧委員縣一：所以目前的可行性不高？"],["彭部長啓明：目前不高，而且我們必須要從碳權的精義，但是如果說可以從保護國有森林地的角度來看的話，或許可以找到一些機會，我絕對會想辦法來解決這個事情。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。我研究了一下，因為這個非常難懂……"],["彭部長啓明：非常難。"],["盧委員縣一：從準備期、註冊申請階段到額度申請階段，就一般人來看，你認為我們現在原住民要取得碳權的機制是否成本過高呢？還是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：通常現實上現在來看的話，大概100公頃的地才有所謂的碳權的經濟價值……"],["盧委員縣一：是100公頃？"],["彭部長啓明：100公頃，而且這個土地要過去是被破壞的，我們把它復育起來，所以這的確是有一定的難度。但是我覺得目前最麻煩的就是認定上的問題，所以方法學這部分要農業部跟我們環境部一起來制定，然後才能往下走。"],["盧委員縣一：最後一個問題我想請教部長，什麼時候可以開始交易呢？"],["彭部長啓明：目前以現行的制度上，農業森林碳匯這部分通過的案件，在我們環境部氣候署裡面還不多，所以我現在有跟農業部長討論這個問題，希望我們可以加快彼此審查的速度。"],["盧委員縣一：所以目前還沒有開始交易？"],["彭部長啓明：就森林碳匯的部分，我們臺灣自己本地的森林碳匯，目前還沒有。"],["盧委員縣一：那近期最快是什麼時候可以？"],["彭部長啓明：我請我們氣候署說明。"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，目前有一案是經濟部水利署提出的，已經註冊通過，但是森林你必須要讓他每一年隨著林木的成長去計算……"],["盧委員縣一：是哪一個區塊？目前你說那個已經申請通過的是哪一個區塊？"],["蔡署長玲儀：那個是經濟部水利署在南投的植樹造林。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，那我希望能夠得到相關的資料，好嗎？謝謝。"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。好。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，這個我們會再提供。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的發言。","接下來請陳昭姿委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"153664","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153664","tool":"pyannote","id":"153664-pyannote"},"job_id":"s20PzVbFJf3ZvEZ4","queued_at":"2024-06-06 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486.1, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 486.1, \"end\": 486.28, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 486.28, \"end\": 486.3, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"盧\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 487.279, \"end\": 487.339, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 487.339, \"end\": 487.359, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,309 --> 00:00:21,675\n主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早安早安我想先問一個問題就是我們目前國內合法的BOT的水利電廠有哪些\n\n2\n00:00:23,990 --> 00:00:49,230\n我所知道的有一個民間的水利電廠還有幾個我比較熟悉的是那個那我在這個上個月的5月20號去了花蓮濁西因為那邊的鄉親跟我說他們的環評的問題還有一些部落同意的問題所以我去看了一下所以當時的現場是這樣的一個環境這是他們的那個太平村旁邊那個河流第二張\n\n3\n00:00:50,919 --> 00:00:56,792\n那我想知道說因為他他認為他的主要的正義點是這樣他在1999年\n\n4\n00:00:58,717 --> 00:01:25,678\n完成了環境評估然後到現在已經2024年了那麼多年了都還沒有動工那他後來在根據16支一條的那個三年如果沒有開工的話他必須做環差那也就是說他2007年有補助那到現在2007年到現在2024年也過了十幾年的時間所以我希望我想說你對這個部分有什麼看法\n\n5\n00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:46,569\n好報告委員喔呃這部分呢其實依照目前我們的呃環境影響評估法喔他是還是可以繼續進行但是我們有考量到這個呃相關很多呃包含的環團的一個建議喔應該有再再次或提出這個環差呃分析的這個機制所以我們會把這個情況演繹齁在適當時機來修法來修這件事情\n\n6\n00:01:48,550 --> 00:02:08,885\n一九九九年到現在經歷了至少有一次的莫拉克最近的一個大地震花蓮是地震帶那如果說是每三年就三年內完成環差然後就終生適用一次一次使用永遠適用他認為說這樣會不會不合理啊這個地方是不是有需要修改的地方你認為呢\n\n7\n00:02:10,286 --> 00:02:38,643\n對這個的確是如果以這個環團的這個建議我個人非常贊同但是目前環境影響評估法的確是適用的所以我們的確我在下半年會有一個環境影響評估的總體檢我們會把這個納入考慮智商同意的部分因為他本身是一個濁西鄉的一個智商同意結果不是這個鄰近村莊或者是有關係的村莊他也做了智商同意我覺得有必要做到全鄉的智商同意嗎\n\n8\n00:02:40,008 --> 00:02:45,199\n呃基本上還是要這個可以請我們要看元香可不可以請我們這個市長來\n\n9\n00:02:47,247 --> 00:03:10,461\n好謝謝委員吼那這個部分還是要看那個原住民基本法裡面的規範那我意思是因為它本身是狹長型的一個鄉可能從前面到後面的20幾將近30公里可是真正影響的是那兩個村莊應該是只做這兩個村莊而不是做全鄉的不是嗎如果說有相對或者說以後有這樣的類似的狀況是以地緣性來看可以嗎\n\n10\n00:03:12,057 --> 00:03:30,906\n這個部分我們來跟原住民委員會來做一個洽商看看就是說有關於諮商的那個範圍這個部分能不能做一些的一個調整所以我想知道說這個三年的這個1616之一條的這個條款然後他是利用這個環差來通過嗎以後他還是可以繼續動工嗎\n\n11\n00:03:32,059 --> 00:03:51,410\n按照目前的法令的確是但是我覺得委員提到的意見非常好那我們因為其實這個不是只有您也環團也跟我們提出這樣的看法所以我們年底呢會有一個知道他沒有上法院也敗訴了對對對只是我還是要提出跟你們提出地方的一個意見第二個就是關於我們原住民前幾天\n\n12\n00:03:52,190 --> 00:04:08,019\n我們的好消息然後略稍通過了我們所謂的他所謂的進法補償的每公頃6萬塊那在這邊跟你提提一下我在競選期間的十二大政見裡面有提到推動原住民森林探會這個部分那我們看下一頁\n\n13\n00:04:09,482 --> 00:04:33,319\n那我們是2050年進領嘛在下一頁那我們在氣候編簽因應法的第5條裡面有關有提到原住民族的權益在第8款會推動自然碳會政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會的相關權益與原住民族共享那我在\n\n14\n00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:41,066\n在一公頃6萬塊這個在說廣泛討論的時候我有提到一個數據就是2001年我們Dr.\n\n15\n00:04:41,066 --> 00:04:59,543\nPierce在英國倫敦的學院他當時是所謂的環境經濟學家他說原始領的一個他那時候的價值是這樣大概在2000美金一公頃也就是6萬塊台幣這是2001年所以我是用這樣的一個\n\n16\n00:05:00,263 --> 00:05:01,406\n數據來提每公頃6萬塊的數據我們看下一頁\n\n17\n00:05:06,345 --> 00:05:33,418\n那未來這個探全我們現在才剛剛起步去年的8月7號才接牌那這個探全交易所裡面我們沒有所謂的原住民人員在裡面當所謂的一個諮詢委員希望無論是借期或者說希望借期在開會的時候能不能納入我們原住民的代表在裡面因為我們原住民目前有27萬大概27萬公頃的原住民保留地現在\n\n18\n00:05:34,999 --> 00:05:48,408\n申請到淨化補償大概7.2萬公頃所以這個部分在探選的一個比例上面你的看法是怎麼樣好報告委員這個問題我其實在我們內閣會議的時候我有跟原住民委員會的主委提到這個問題\n\n19\n00:05:49,389 --> 00:06:10,482\n因為現在這個國有地其實要算是探全的部分真的有點困難所以這個要有一些解釋還有突破那我有跟他說因為在全球氣候會議裡面原住民都扮演一個很重要的角色所以我也特別跟他有提到說我們是不是共同來跨部會來商量這個問題那另外這個森林的探會涉及到農業部\n\n20\n00:06:11,543 --> 00:06:37,889\n的認定跟我們環境部的許可所以這個部分我們的確會跨部會包含了原住民委員會還有這個農業部還有環境部三個部會會來一起來處理那你覺得未來我們主要有機會從中分享他的利益嗎我認為長期來看這個是的確要考量到原住民因為原住民是公平正義但是以現有的法規在國有地要取得探權的部分的確是非常困難的\n\n21\n00:06:38,786 --> 00:06:49,542\n就目前的可信性不高目前不高而且我們必須要從探全的經濟但是如果說可以從保護這個國有的森林地的角度來看的話或許可以找到一些機會這個我絕對會來想辦法來解決這個事情\n\n22\n00:06:54,046 --> 00:07:09,041\n我研究了一下因為這個非常難懂準備期註冊申請階段到額度申請階段這個就一般人來看你認為我們在原住民鄉這個取得的機制是成本過高還是怎麼樣\n\n23\n00:07:10,262 --> 00:07:36,097\n通常這個現實上現在來看的話大概100公頃的地才有他所謂的探全的經濟的價值100公頃而且這個土地呢要過去是被破壞的我們把它富裕起來所以這的確是有一定的難度所以但是呢這個我覺得目前最麻煩的就是認定上的問題所以這個方法學要我們農業部跟這個環境部一起來制定這個方法學\n\n24\n00:07:36,377 --> 00:07:37,259\n然後才往下走。\n\n25\n00:07:40,527 --> 00:08:06,300\n目前在以現在的這個制度上農業森林碳會的過的案件我們環境部在7.25裡面還不多所以我們現在我是有跟那個農業部長來討論這個問題希望我們可以加快彼此的審查的一個速度所以目前還沒有開始交易森林碳會我們臺灣自己本地的森林碳會目前還沒有那近期最快是什麼時候可以\n\n26\n00:08:07,279 --> 00:08:07,359\n盧縣一委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n309\t21675\t主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早安早安我想先問一個問題就是我們目前國內合法的BOT的水利電廠有哪些\n23990\t49230\t我所知道的有一個民間的水利電廠還有幾個我比較熟悉的是那個那我在這個上個月的5月20號去了花蓮濁西因為那邊的鄉親跟我說他們的環評的問題還有一些部落同意的問題所以我去看了一下所以當時的現場是這樣的一個環境這是他們的那個太平村旁邊那個河流第二張\n50919\t56792\t那我想知道說因為他他認為他的主要的正義點是這樣他在1999年\n58717\t85678\t完成了環境評估然後到現在已經2024年了那麼多年了都還沒有動工那他後來在根據16支一條的那個三年如果沒有開工的話他必須做環差那也就是說他2007年有補助那到現在2007年到現在2024年也過了十幾年的時間所以我希望我想說你對這個部分有什麼看法\n86800\t106569\t好報告委員喔呃這部分呢其實依照目前我們的呃環境影響評估法喔他是還是可以繼續進行但是我們有考量到這個呃相關很多呃包含的環團的一個建議喔應該有再再次或提出這個環差呃分析的這個機制所以我們會把這個情況演繹齁在適當時機來修法來修這件事情\n108550\t128885\t一九九九年到現在經歷了至少有一次的莫拉克最近的一個大地震花蓮是地震帶那如果說是每三年就三年內完成環差然後就終生適用一次一次使用永遠適用他認為說這樣會不會不合理啊這個地方是不是有需要修改的地方你認為呢\n130286\t158643\t對 這個的確是如果以這個環團的這個建議我個人非常贊同但是目前環境影響評估法的確是適用的所以我們的確我在下半年會有一個環境影響評估的總體檢我們會把這個納入考慮智商同意的部分因為他本身是一個濁西鄉的一個智商同意結果不是這個鄰近村莊或者是有關係的村莊他也做了智商同意我覺得有必要做到全鄉的智商同意嗎\n160008\t165199\t呃基本上還是要這個可以請我們要看元香可不可以請我們這個市長來\n167247\t190461\t好謝謝委員吼那這個部分還是要看那個原住民基本法裡面的規範那我意思是因為它本身是狹長型的一個鄉可能從前面到後面的20幾將近30公里可是真正影響的是那兩個村莊應該是只做這兩個村莊而不是做全鄉的不是嗎如果說有相對或者說以後有這樣的類似的狀況是以地緣性來看可以嗎\n192057\t210906\t這個部分我們來跟原住民委員會來做一個洽商看看就是說有關於諮商的那個範圍這個部分能不能做一些的一個調整所以我想知道說這個三年的這個1616之一條的這個條款然後他是利用這個環差來通過嗎以後他還是可以繼續動工嗎\n212059\t231410\t按照目前的法令的確是但是我覺得委員提到的意見非常好那我們因為其實這個不是只有您也環團也跟我們提出這樣的看法所以我們年底呢會有一個知道他沒有上法院也敗訴了對對對只是我還是要提出跟你們提出地方的一個意見第二個就是關於我們原住民前幾天\n232190\t248019\t我們的好消息然後略稍通過了我們所謂的他所謂的進法補償的每公頃6萬塊那在這邊跟你提提一下我在競選期間的十二大政見裡面有提到推動原住民森林探會這個部分那我們看下一頁\n249482\t273319\t那我們是2050年進領嘛在下一頁那我們在氣候編簽因應法的第5條裡面有關有提到原住民族的權益在第8款會推動自然碳會政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會的相關權益與原住民族共享那我在\n274640\t281066\t在一公頃6萬塊這個在說廣泛討論的時候我有提到一個數據就是2001年我們Dr.\n281066\t299543\tPierce在英國倫敦的學院他當時是所謂的環境經濟學家他說原始領的一個他那時候的價值是這樣大概在2000美金一公頃也就是6萬塊台幣這是2001年所以我是用這樣的一個\n300263\t301406\t數據來提每公頃6萬塊的數據我們看下一頁\n306345\t333418\t那未來這個探全我們現在才剛剛起步去年的8月7號才接牌那這個探全交易所裡面我們沒有所謂的原住民人員在裡面當所謂的一個諮詢委員希望無論是借期或者說希望借期在開會的時候能不能納入我們原住民的代表在裡面因為我們原住民目前有27萬大概27萬公頃的原住民保留地現在\n334999\t348408\t申請到淨化補償大概7.2萬公頃所以這個部分在探選的一個比例上面你的看法是怎麼樣好報告委員這個問題我其實在我們內閣會議的時候我有跟原住民委員會的主委提到這個問題\n349389\t370482\t因為現在這個國有地其實要算是探全的部分真的有點困難所以這個要有一些解釋還有突破那我有跟他說因為在全球氣候會議裡面原住民都扮演一個很重要的角色所以我也特別跟他有提到說我們是不是共同來跨部會來商量這個問題那另外這個森林的探會涉及到農業部\n371543\t397889\t的認定跟我們環境部的許可所以這個部分我們的確會跨部會包含了原住民委員會還有這個農業部還有環境部三個部會會來一起來處理那你覺得未來我們主要有機會從中分享他的利益嗎我認為長期來看這個是的確要考量到原住民因為原住民是公平正義但是以現有的法規在國有地要取得探權的部分的確是非常困難的\n398786\t409542\t就目前的可信性不高目前不高而且我們必須要從探全的經濟但是如果說可以從保護這個國有的森林地的角度來看的話或許可以找到一些機會這個我絕對會來想辦法來解決這個事情\n414046\t429041\t我研究了一下因為這個非常難懂準備期註冊申請階段到額度申請階段這個就一般人來看你認為我們在原住民鄉這個取得的機制是成本過高還是怎麼樣\n430262\t456097\t通常這個現實上現在來看的話大概100公頃的地才有他所謂的探全的經濟的價值100公頃而且這個土地呢要過去是被破壞的我們把它富裕起來所以這的確是有一定的難度所以但是呢這個我覺得目前最麻煩的就是認定上的問題所以這個方法學要我們農業部跟這個環境部一起來制定這個方法學\n456377\t457259\t然後才往下走。\n460527\t486300\t目前在以現在的這個制度上農業森林碳會的過的案件我們環境部在7.25裡面還不多所以我們現在我是有跟那個農業部長來討論這個問題希望我們可以加快彼此的審查的一個速度所以目前還沒有開始交易森林碳會我們臺灣自己本地的森林碳會目前還沒有那近期最快是什麼時候可以\n487279\t487359\t盧縣一委員\n","txt":"主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早安早安我想先問一個問題就是我們目前國內合法的BOT的水利電廠有哪些\n我所知道的有一個民間的水利電廠還有幾個我比較熟悉的是那個那我在這個上個月的5月20號去了花蓮濁西因為那邊的鄉親跟我說他們的環評的問題還有一些部落同意的問題所以我去看了一下所以當時的現場是這樣的一個環境這是他們的那個太平村旁邊那個河流第二張\n那我想知道說因為他他認為他的主要的正義點是這樣他在1999年\n完成了環境評估然後到現在已經2024年了那麼多年了都還沒有動工那他後來在根據16支一條的那個三年如果沒有開工的話他必須做環差那也就是說他2007年有補助那到現在2007年到現在2024年也過了十幾年的時間所以我希望我想說你對這個部分有什麼看法\n好報告委員喔呃這部分呢其實依照目前我們的呃環境影響評估法喔他是還是可以繼續進行但是我們有考量到這個呃相關很多呃包含的環團的一個建議喔應該有再再次或提出這個環差呃分析的這個機制所以我們會把這個情況演繹齁在適當時機來修法來修這件事情\n一九九九年到現在經歷了至少有一次的莫拉克最近的一個大地震花蓮是地震帶那如果說是每三年就三年內完成環差然後就終生適用一次一次使用永遠適用他認為說這樣會不會不合理啊這個地方是不是有需要修改的地方你認為呢\n對 這個的確是如果以這個環團的這個建議我個人非常贊同但是目前環境影響評估法的確是適用的所以我們的確我在下半年會有一個環境影響評估的總體檢我們會把這個納入考慮智商同意的部分因為他本身是一個濁西鄉的一個智商同意結果不是這個鄰近村莊或者是有關係的村莊他也做了智商同意我覺得有必要做到全鄉的智商同意嗎\n呃基本上還是要這個可以請我們要看元香可不可以請我們這個市長來\n好謝謝委員吼那這個部分還是要看那個原住民基本法裡面的規範那我意思是因為它本身是狹長型的一個鄉可能從前面到後面的20幾將近30公里可是真正影響的是那兩個村莊應該是只做這兩個村莊而不是做全鄉的不是嗎如果說有相對或者說以後有這樣的類似的狀況是以地緣性來看可以嗎\n這個部分我們來跟原住民委員會來做一個洽商看看就是說有關於諮商的那個範圍這個部分能不能做一些的一個調整所以我想知道說這個三年的這個1616之一條的這個條款然後他是利用這個環差來通過嗎以後他還是可以繼續動工嗎\n按照目前的法令的確是但是我覺得委員提到的意見非常好那我們因為其實這個不是只有您也環團也跟我們提出這樣的看法所以我們年底呢會有一個知道他沒有上法院也敗訴了對對對只是我還是要提出跟你們提出地方的一個意見第二個就是關於我們原住民前幾天\n我們的好消息然後略稍通過了我們所謂的他所謂的進法補償的每公頃6萬塊那在這邊跟你提提一下我在競選期間的十二大政見裡面有提到推動原住民森林探會這個部分那我們看下一頁\n那我們是2050年進領嘛在下一頁那我們在氣候編簽因應法的第5條裡面有關有提到原住民族的權益在第8款會推動自然碳會政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會的相關權益與原住民族共享那我在\n在一公頃6萬塊這個在說廣泛討論的時候我有提到一個數據就是2001年我們Dr.\nPierce在英國倫敦的學院他當時是所謂的環境經濟學家他說原始領的一個他那時候的價值是這樣大概在2000美金一公頃也就是6萬塊台幣這是2001年所以我是用這樣的一個\n數據來提每公頃6萬塊的數據我們看下一頁\n那未來這個探全我們現在才剛剛起步去年的8月7號才接牌那這個探全交易所裡面我們沒有所謂的原住民人員在裡面當所謂的一個諮詢委員希望無論是借期或者說希望借期在開會的時候能不能納入我們原住民的代表在裡面因為我們原住民目前有27萬大概27萬公頃的原住民保留地現在\n申請到淨化補償大概7.2萬公頃所以這個部分在探選的一個比例上面你的看法是怎麼樣好報告委員這個問題我其實在我們內閣會議的時候我有跟原住民委員會的主委提到這個問題\n因為現在這個國有地其實要算是探全的部分真的有點困難所以這個要有一些解釋還有突破那我有跟他說因為在全球氣候會議裡面原住民都扮演一個很重要的角色所以我也特別跟他有提到說我們是不是共同來跨部會來商量這個問題那另外這個森林的探會涉及到農業部\n的認定跟我們環境部的許可所以這個部分我們的確會跨部會包含了原住民委員會還有這個農業部還有環境部三個部會會來一起來處理那你覺得未來我們主要有機會從中分享他的利益嗎我認為長期來看這個是的確要考量到原住民因為原住民是公平正義但是以現有的法規在國有地要取得探權的部分的確是非常困難的\n就目前的可信性不高目前不高而且我們必須要從探全的經濟但是如果說可以從保護這個國有的森林地的角度來看的話或許可以找到一些機會這個我絕對會來想辦法來解決這個事情\n我研究了一下因為這個非常難懂準備期註冊申請階段到額度申請階段這個就一般人來看你認為我們在原住民鄉這個取得的機制是成本過高還是怎麼樣\n通常這個現實上現在來看的話大概100公頃的地才有他所謂的探全的經濟的價值100公頃而且這個土地呢要過去是被破壞的我們把它富裕起來所以這的確是有一定的難度所以但是呢這個我覺得目前最麻煩的就是認定上的問題所以這個方法學要我們農業部跟這個環境部一起來制定這個方法學\n然後才往下走。\n目前在以現在的這個制度上農業森林碳會的過的案件我們環境部在7.25裡面還不多所以我們現在我是有跟那個農業部長來討論這個問題希望我們可以加快彼此的審查的一個速度所以目前還沒有開始交易森林碳會我們臺灣自己本地的森林碳會目前還沒有那近期最快是什麼時候可以\n盧縣一委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.309 --> 00:21.675\n主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早安早安我想先問一個問題就是我們目前國內合法的BOT的水利電廠有哪些\n\n00:23.990 --> 00:49.230\n我所知道的有一個民間的水利電廠還有幾個我比較熟悉的是那個那我在這個上個月的5月20號去了花蓮濁西因為那邊的鄉親跟我說他們的環評的問題還有一些部落同意的問題所以我去看了一下所以當時的現場是這樣的一個環境這是他們的那個太平村旁邊那個河流第二張\n\n00:50.919 --> 00:56.792\n那我想知道說因為他他認為他的主要的正義點是這樣他在1999年\n\n00:58.717 --> 01:25.678\n完成了環境評估然後到現在已經2024年了那麼多年了都還沒有動工那他後來在根據16支一條的那個三年如果沒有開工的話他必須做環差那也就是說他2007年有補助那到現在2007年到現在2024年也過了十幾年的時間所以我希望我想說你對這個部分有什麼看法\n\n01:26.800 --> 01:46.569\n好報告委員喔呃這部分呢其實依照目前我們的呃環境影響評估法喔他是還是可以繼續進行但是我們有考量到這個呃相關很多呃包含的環團的一個建議喔應該有再再次或提出這個環差呃分析的這個機制所以我們會把這個情況演繹齁在適當時機來修法來修這件事情\n\n01:48.550 --> 02:08.885\n一九九九年到現在經歷了至少有一次的莫拉克最近的一個大地震花蓮是地震帶那如果說是每三年就三年內完成環差然後就終生適用一次一次使用永遠適用他認為說這樣會不會不合理啊這個地方是不是有需要修改的地方你認為呢\n\n02:10.286 --> 02:38.643\n對這個的確是如果以這個環團的這個建議我個人非常贊同但是目前環境影響評估法的確是適用的所以我們的確我在下半年會有一個環境影響評估的總體檢我們會把這個納入考慮智商同意的部分因為他本身是一個濁西鄉的一個智商同意結果不是這個鄰近村莊或者是有關係的村莊他也做了智商同意我覺得有必要做到全鄉的智商同意嗎\n\n02:40.008 --> 02:45.199\n呃基本上還是要這個可以請我們要看元香可不可以請我們這個市長來\n\n02:47.247 --> 03:10.461\n好謝謝委員吼那這個部分還是要看那個原住民基本法裡面的規範那我意思是因為它本身是狹長型的一個鄉可能從前面到後面的20幾將近30公里可是真正影響的是那兩個村莊應該是只做這兩個村莊而不是做全鄉的不是嗎如果說有相對或者說以後有這樣的類似的狀況是以地緣性來看可以嗎\n\n03:12.057 --> 03:30.906\n這個部分我們來跟原住民委員會來做一個洽商看看就是說有關於諮商的那個範圍這個部分能不能做一些的一個調整所以我想知道說這個三年的這個1616之一條的這個條款然後他是利用這個環差來通過嗎以後他還是可以繼續動工嗎\n\n03:32.059 --> 03:51.410\n按照目前的法令的確是但是我覺得委員提到的意見非常好那我們因為其實這個不是只有您也環團也跟我們提出這樣的看法所以我們年底呢會有一個知道他沒有上法院也敗訴了對對對只是我還是要提出跟你們提出地方的一個意見第二個就是關於我們原住民前幾天\n\n03:52.190 --> 04:08.019\n我們的好消息然後略稍通過了我們所謂的他所謂的進法補償的每公頃6萬塊那在這邊跟你提提一下我在競選期間的十二大政見裡面有提到推動原住民森林探會這個部分那我們看下一頁\n\n04:09.482 --> 04:33.319\n那我們是2050年進領嘛在下一頁那我們在氣候編簽因應法的第5條裡面有關有提到原住民族的權益在第8款會推動自然碳會政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會的相關權益與原住民族共享那我在\n\n04:34.640 --> 04:41.066\n在一公頃6萬塊這個在說廣泛討論的時候我有提到一個數據就是2001年我們Dr.\n\n04:41.066 --> 04:59.543\nPierce在英國倫敦的學院他當時是所謂的環境經濟學家他說原始領的一個他那時候的價值是這樣大概在2000美金一公頃也就是6萬塊台幣這是2001年所以我是用這樣的一個\n\n05:00.263 --> 05:01.406\n數據來提每公頃6萬塊的數據我們看下一頁\n\n05:06.345 --> 05:33.418\n那未來這個探全我們現在才剛剛起步去年的8月7號才接牌那這個探全交易所裡面我們沒有所謂的原住民人員在裡面當所謂的一個諮詢委員希望無論是借期或者說希望借期在開會的時候能不能納入我們原住民的代表在裡面因為我們原住民目前有27萬大概27萬公頃的原住民保留地現在\n\n05:34.999 --> 05:48.408\n申請到淨化補償大概7.2萬公頃所以這個部分在探選的一個比例上面你的看法是怎麼樣好報告委員這個問題我其實在我們內閣會議的時候我有跟原住民委員會的主委提到這個問題\n\n05:49.389 --> 06:10.482\n因為現在這個國有地其實要算是探全的部分真的有點困難所以這個要有一些解釋還有突破那我有跟他說因為在全球氣候會議裡面原住民都扮演一個很重要的角色所以我也特別跟他有提到說我們是不是共同來跨部會來商量這個問題那另外這個森林的探會涉及到農業部\n\n06:11.543 --> 06:37.889\n的認定跟我們環境部的許可所以這個部分我們的確會跨部會包含了原住民委員會還有這個農業部還有環境部三個部會會來一起來處理那你覺得未來我們主要有機會從中分享他的利益嗎我認為長期來看這個是的確要考量到原住民因為原住民是公平正義但是以現有的法規在國有地要取得探權的部分的確是非常困難的\n\n06:38.786 --> 06:49.542\n就目前的可信性不高目前不高而且我們必須要從探全的經濟但是如果說可以從保護這個國有的森林地的角度來看的話或許可以找到一些機會這個我絕對會來想辦法來解決這個事情\n\n06:54.046 --> 07:09.041\n我研究了一下因為這個非常難懂準備期註冊申請階段到額度申請階段這個就一般人來看你認為我們在原住民鄉這個取得的機制是成本過高還是怎麼樣\n\n07:10.262 --> 07:36.097\n通常這個現實上現在來看的話大概100公頃的地才有他所謂的探全的經濟的價值100公頃而且這個土地呢要過去是被破壞的我們把它富裕起來所以這的確是有一定的難度所以但是呢這個我覺得目前最麻煩的就是認定上的問題所以這個方法學要我們農業部跟這個環境部一起來制定這個方法學\n\n07:36.377 --> 07:37.259\n然後才往下走。\n\n07:40.527 --> 08:06.300\n目前在以現在的這個制度上農業森林碳會的過的案件我們環境部在7.25裡面還不多所以我們現在我是有跟那個農業部長來討論這個問題希望我們可以加快彼此的審查的一個速度所以目前還沒有開始交易森林碳會我們臺灣自己本地的森林碳會目前還沒有那近期最快是什麼時候可以\n\n08:07.279 --> 08:07.359\n盧縣一委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.309,"end":21.675,"text":"主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早安早安我想先問一個問題就是我們目前國內合法的BOT的水利電廠有哪些"},{"start":23.99,"end":49.23,"text":"我所知道的有一個民間的水利電廠還有幾個我比較熟悉的是那個那我在這個上個月的5月20號去了花蓮濁西因為那邊的鄉親跟我說他們的環評的問題還有一些部落同意的問題所以我去看了一下所以當時的現場是這樣的一個環境這是他們的那個太平村旁邊那個河流第二張"},{"start":50.919,"end":56.792,"text":"那我想知道說因為他他認為他的主要的正義點是這樣他在1999年"},{"start":58.717,"end":85.678,"text":"完成了環境評估然後到現在已經2024年了那麼多年了都還沒有動工那他後來在根據16支一條的那個三年如果沒有開工的話他必須做環差那也就是說他2007年有補助那到現在2007年到現在2024年也過了十幾年的時間所以我希望我想說你對這個部分有什麼看法"},{"start":86.8,"end":106.569,"text":"好報告委員喔呃這部分呢其實依照目前我們的呃環境影響評估法喔他是還是可以繼續進行但是我們有考量到這個呃相關很多呃包含的環團的一個建議喔應該有再再次或提出這個環差呃分析的這個機制所以我們會把這個情況演繹齁在適當時機來修法來修這件事情"},{"start":108.55,"end":128.885,"text":"一九九九年到現在經歷了至少有一次的莫拉克最近的一個大地震花蓮是地震帶那如果說是每三年就三年內完成環差然後就終生適用一次一次使用永遠適用他認為說這樣會不會不合理啊這個地方是不是有需要修改的地方你認為呢"},{"start":130.286,"end":158.643,"text":"對 這個的確是如果以這個環團的這個建議我個人非常贊同但是目前環境影響評估法的確是適用的所以我們的確我在下半年會有一個環境影響評估的總體檢我們會把這個納入考慮智商同意的部分因為他本身是一個濁西鄉的一個智商同意結果不是這個鄰近村莊或者是有關係的村莊他也做了智商同意我覺得有必要做到全鄉的智商同意嗎"},{"start":160.008,"end":165.199,"text":"呃基本上還是要這個可以請我們要看元香可不可以請我們這個市長來"},{"start":167.247,"end":190.461,"text":"好謝謝委員吼那這個部分還是要看那個原住民基本法裡面的規範那我意思是因為它本身是狹長型的一個鄉可能從前面到後面的20幾將近30公里可是真正影響的是那兩個村莊應該是只做這兩個村莊而不是做全鄉的不是嗎如果說有相對或者說以後有這樣的類似的狀況是以地緣性來看可以嗎"},{"start":192.057,"end":210.906,"text":"這個部分我們來跟原住民委員會來做一個洽商看看就是說有關於諮商的那個範圍這個部分能不能做一些的一個調整所以我想知道說這個三年的這個1616之一條的這個條款然後他是利用這個環差來通過嗎以後他還是可以繼續動工嗎"},{"start":212.059,"end":231.41,"text":"按照目前的法令的確是但是我覺得委員提到的意見非常好那我們因為其實這個不是只有您也環團也跟我們提出這樣的看法所以我們年底呢會有一個知道他沒有上法院也敗訴了對對對只是我還是要提出跟你們提出地方的一個意見第二個就是關於我們原住民前幾天"},{"start":232.19,"end":248.019,"text":"我們的好消息然後略稍通過了我們所謂的他所謂的進法補償的每公頃6萬塊那在這邊跟你提提一下我在競選期間的十二大政見裡面有提到推動原住民森林探會這個部分那我們看下一頁"},{"start":249.482,"end":273.319,"text":"那我們是2050年進領嘛在下一頁那我們在氣候編簽因應法的第5條裡面有關有提到原住民族的權益在第8款會推動自然碳會政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會的相關權益與原住民族共享那我在"},{"start":274.64,"end":281.066,"text":"在一公頃6萬塊這個在說廣泛討論的時候我有提到一個數據就是2001年我們Dr."},{"start":281.066,"end":299.543,"text":"Pierce在英國倫敦的學院他當時是所謂的環境經濟學家他說原始領的一個他那時候的價值是這樣大概在2000美金一公頃也就是6萬塊台幣這是2001年所以我是用這樣的一個"},{"start":300.263,"end":301.406,"text":"數據來提每公頃6萬塊的數據我們看下一頁"},{"start":306.345,"end":333.418,"text":"那未來這個探全我們現在才剛剛起步去年的8月7號才接牌那這個探全交易所裡面我們沒有所謂的原住民人員在裡面當所謂的一個諮詢委員希望無論是借期或者說希望借期在開會的時候能不能納入我們原住民的代表在裡面因為我們原住民目前有27萬大概27萬公頃的原住民保留地現在"},{"start":334.999,"end":348.408,"text":"申請到淨化補償大概7.2萬公頃所以這個部分在探選的一個比例上面你的看法是怎麼樣好報告委員這個問題我其實在我們內閣會議的時候我有跟原住民委員會的主委提到這個問題"},{"start":349.389,"end":370.482,"text":"因為現在這個國有地其實要算是探全的部分真的有點困難所以這個要有一些解釋還有突破那我有跟他說因為在全球氣候會議裡面原住民都扮演一個很重要的角色所以我也特別跟他有提到說我們是不是共同來跨部會來商量這個問題那另外這個森林的探會涉及到農業部"},{"start":371.543,"end":397.889,"text":"的認定跟我們環境部的許可所以這個部分我們的確會跨部會包含了原住民委員會還有這個農業部還有環境部三個部會會來一起來處理那你覺得未來我們主要有機會從中分享他的利益嗎我認為長期來看這個是的確要考量到原住民因為原住民是公平正義但是以現有的法規在國有地要取得探權的部分的確是非常困難的"},{"start":398.786,"end":409.542,"text":"就目前的可信性不高目前不高而且我們必須要從探全的經濟但是如果說可以從保護這個國有的森林地的角度來看的話或許可以找到一些機會這個我絕對會來想辦法來解決這個事情"},{"start":414.046,"end":429.041,"text":"我研究了一下因為這個非常難懂準備期註冊申請階段到額度申請階段這個就一般人來看你認為我們在原住民鄉這個取得的機制是成本過高還是怎麼樣"},{"start":430.262,"end":456.097,"text":"通常這個現實上現在來看的話大概100公頃的地才有他所謂的探全的經濟的價值100公頃而且這個土地呢要過去是被破壞的我們把它富裕起來所以這的確是有一定的難度所以但是呢這個我覺得目前最麻煩的就是認定上的問題所以這個方法學要我們農業部跟這個環境部一起來制定這個方法學"},{"start":456.377,"end":457.259,"text":"然後才往下走。"},{"start":460.527,"end":486.3,"text":"目前在以現在的這個制度上農業森林碳會的過的案件我們環境部在7.25裡面還不多所以我們現在我是有跟那個農業部長來討論這個問題希望我們可以加快彼此的審查的一個速度所以目前還沒有開始交易森林碳會我們臺灣自己本地的森林碳會目前還沒有那近期最快是什麼時候可以"},{"start":487.279,"end":487.359,"text":"盧縣一委員"}]}}}}