{"id":153669,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153669","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d50f8e8f7c761db3bed6a1f14e6772be7c3d3daa592b5b2cb03c3fe24fbfd0fd505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:22:31 - 09:32:50","影片長度":"00:10:19","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:22:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:32:50+08:00","duration":619,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":257,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時22分）主席，我們先請鄭部長。"],["主席：鄭部長有請。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：部長早。這個禮拜我們司法及法制委員會用了3天的時間，針對行政院所推出的，針對國人所關心目前詐騙集團橫行，臺灣的詐欺犯罪成為國人最為困擾，以及目前對治安擾亂最大、對人民財產侵害最大的一個犯罪型態，行政院所推出的打詐四法，本委員會用三天的時間審到今天，這是第三個──通訊保障及監察法。一方面通訊保障及監察法的修法事實上已經倡議已久，一方面過去也曾有各方非常充分而且冗長的討論，最主要原因是因為，利用現代科技的進步，基本上現在整個犯罪型態、犯罪手法、犯罪工具是不斷地推陳出新，我們過去說道高一尺、魔高一丈，如果我們在法制面上，對於這些相關的科技通訊的偵查手法，法律沒有予以一定程度的授權的話，事實上是沒有辦法跟上犯罪型態更新的腳步，這個部分在剛剛包括立法說明裡面也都說明得很清楚。","但是今天的這個通訊保障及監察法，在過去到現在為什麼經過這麼長時間討論？最主要是因為它一方面對於打擊現在國人關心的一些重大治安案件，包括詐騙、包括其他許多我們等一下會討論的犯罪型態，目前這個通訊監察確實是在偵查裡面的關鍵核心，尤其是證據取得的關鍵核心，但是另外一方面，因為通訊監察也對於人權保障有一個最密切的關聯，對於一般通訊使用者而言，是否受到監察是完全無法掌握，它不像跟監或其他強制處分的方式、偵查手法，可以讓當事者明白知道，因為所有的通訊監察都一定是在當事者所不知的情況之下進行，所以這個部分也在社會上引起很多的關注。","我首先請教部長，第一個，你們要必須要跟委員會、跟國人說明，為什麼把通訊保障及監察法放在所謂打詐四法裡面？它對於目前打我們要偵查、打擊詐騙集團的犯罪型態，有著什麼樣的重要性？這部分先請部長回答，還有警政署副署長請上台，等一下部長回答後也請副署長回答。"],["主席：陳副署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我們知道現在詐欺、詐團這類的犯罪是我們所有檢、警辦的所有案件的最大宗，是占首位的，被害人非常多，而且現在網路時代的興起，像以前詐團都用電話來詐騙……"],["沈委員發惠：現在沒有人用電話了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在是網路的時代，轉到網路了，而且網路可以製造很多的斷點，所以現在我們修法的重點就是調取網路流量的紀錄，如果不調取這些紀錄，那我想我們在偵辦犯罪真的會變成落後於整個詐團的腳步。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我先請警政署說明一下，就剛剛部長所講的一個關鍵就是調取網路流量，這件事情對於目前我們偵辦上面，因為依現行法令不能調取使用者的網路流量，所以在偵查方面具體的實例在哪裡會出現問題？在整個詐騙集團的犯罪過程裡面，在證據取得上面的什麼部分會出現問題？"],["陳副署長永利：現在主要是大家可以看到，前一陣子我們常常會接到恐嚇的email、訊息，結果都是境外跳板的，造成斷點，這個我們就查不到，這個法通過後我們就可以溯源，有利於去追查。"],["沈委員發惠：我聽起來最主要目前所謂製造斷點這個部分，是不是只有透過調取網路流量這個方式，我們才可以……"],["陳副署長永利：是，包括現在全民受害的網路詐騙其實都是雷同。"],["沈委員發惠：網路詐騙也是，也是我們在偵查的過程中遇到他們所製造的這些斷點，就必須要用網路流量來偵查。"],["陳副署長永利：對，目前這個就是我們遇到的困難，這個通過就可以突破。"],["沈委員發惠：謝謝副署長。部長，我們今天就要審查通保法，但是前天民間司改會也召開了記者會，就是針對目前這個通保法的修正他們也提出幾個質疑，我覺得這些質疑有其道理，而且社會也有這樣的疑慮，所以我希望今天有機會部長能夠就這些部分再做一些說明。他們針對通保法這次的修正有滿多的質疑，但是我看到兩個比較大的重點，第一個，這次修法修第十一條之一，調取通訊使用者資料過去是檢察官保留跟法官保留，現在我們擴大到警察可以直接調取通訊使用者的資料。依照統計，過去這些調取的案件，這個部分是不是請部長來說明，我們拿掉了有關通訊使用者資料的檢察官保留的部分，是不是請部長說明？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個使用者資料就是我們申登的資料。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，大概就是姓名、身分證字號、住址、聯繫方式。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這在德國跟美國，他們都不需要法官的令狀，我舉個最簡單的例子，譬如說，我們手機收到一個不明的電話號碼，結果民眾誤信了，跟他聯絡，他就跑來詐錢了，結果民眾錢拿出去之後，他發覺不對去報案，警察就是從這個手機號碼去查使用者資料，如果這個還要再跟檢察官申請、跟法院申請……"],["沈委員發惠：過去就是這樣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這樣來不及了，所以詐團才會騙了一大堆，我們認為這個對隱私的……"],["沈委員發惠：這個是一個啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個是沒有內容的，這個使用者資料只有單純申登人的姓名、門號的基本資料，並沒有這個通信裡面的內容。"],["沈委員發惠：民間團體質疑的是，按照這樣子通過，大概有九成的案件都不會經過法院。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，使用者資料是偵查最先的開頭，不然沒辦法去做再進一步的釐清，基本上使用者資料調了之後，我們才有辦法再做下一步，譬如說調取這些通聯的紀錄，下一步才會這樣做，所以使用者資料是第一步而已。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分是民間有這個質疑，而且事實上民間團體希望我們能夠提出完整的人權影響評估，其實也並不是全然的反對，但是認為我們在立法過程中對於人權侵害的評估做得不夠。因為社會有這樣的質疑，我希望部長、部裡面能夠針對這個問題加強對社會的說明，針對大家對於人權侵害的疑慮，能夠進一步跟國人說明。否則的話，在整個修法過程，我相信等一下進入廣泛討論、逐條討論，這個部分會是一個焦點，就是我們知道犯罪偵查的需求，但是對於人權侵害的疑慮，永遠都會是通保法修正中大家所角力拔河的一個焦點，請部長在這個部分能夠責成法務部對社會做更清楚的說明，以上。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝鄭部長，謝謝副署長。","由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，現在先確認議事錄。請問各位，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）議事錄確定。","接下來邀請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"id":"153669","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153669","tool":"pyannote","id":"153669-pyannote"},"job_id":"sMjagCeeUeLhdYMP","queued_at":"2024-06-06 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495.999, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 495.999, \"end\": 496.6, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 496.6, \"end\": 496.74, \"score\": 0.597}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 496.74, \"end\": 496.88, \"score\": 0.637}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 496.88, \"end\": 497.0, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 497.0, \"end\": 497.021, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 497.021, \"end\": 497.181, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 497.181, \"end\": 497.901, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"嘿\", \"start\": 497.901, \"end\": 498.722, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 498.722, \"end\": 498.842, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 498.842, \"end\": 498.862, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 498.862, \"end\": 498.963, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 498.963, \"end\": 498.983, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 498.983, \"end\": 499.023, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 499.023, \"end\": 499.043, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 499.043, \"end\": 499.123, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 499.123, \"end\": 499.223, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 499.223, \"end\": 499.243, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"兆\", \"start\": 499.243, \"end\": 499.283, \"score\": 0.397}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 499.283, \"end\": 499.723, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"焰\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 499.723, \"end\": 499.743, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 499.743, \"end\": 499.844, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"騙\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 499.844, \"end\": 499.864, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 499.864, \"end\": 499.884, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 499.884, \"end\": 499.924, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"堆\", \"start\": 499.924, \"end\": 499.944, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 505.089, \"end\": 525.631, \"text\": \"所以我們認為這個對隱私的這個是一個啦因為這個是沒有內容的嘛 這個使用的資料只有單純的深燈人的這些的姓名那個門號的這些的基本資料並沒有這個通訊裡面的內容這個民間團體他們質疑的是說按照這樣子通過大概有九成九成的案件都不會經過法院都不會經過法院\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 505.089, \"end\": 505.209, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 505.209, \"end\": 505.309, \"score\": 0.539}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 505.309, \"end\": 507.151, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"隱\"}, {\"word\": \"私\", \"start\": 507.151, \"end\": 507.331, \"score\": 0.691}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 507.331, \"end\": 507.992, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 507.992, \"end\": 508.132, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 508.132, \"end\": 508.393, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 508.393, \"end\": 508.713, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 508.713, \"end\": 509.173, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 509.173, \"end\": 509.294, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 509.294, \"end\": 509.434, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 509.434, \"end\": 509.854, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 509.854, \"end\": 510.074, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 510.074, \"end\": 510.194, \"score\": 0.756}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 510.194, \"end\": 510.735, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 510.735, \"end\": 510.855, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 510.855, \"end\": 511.015, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 511.015, \"end\": 511.236, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 511.236, \"end\": 511.376, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 511.376, \"end\": 511.496, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 511.496, \"end\": 512.036, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"純\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 512.036, \"end\": 512.277, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"深\", \"start\": 512.277, \"end\": 512.677, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"燈\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 512.677, \"end\": 512.857, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 512.857, \"end\": 513.198, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 513.198, \"end\": 513.438, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 513.438, \"end\": 513.618, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"姓\", \"start\": 513.618, \"end\": 513.838, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"名\", 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{\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 518.123, \"end\": 518.523, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 518.523, \"end\": 519.004, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 519.004, \"end\": 519.725, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 519.725, \"end\": 520.726, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 520.726, \"end\": 521.186, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 521.186, \"end\": 521.286, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 521.286, \"end\": 521.446, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 521.446, \"end\": 521.586, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"按\", \"start\": 521.586, \"end\": 521.727, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 521.727, \"end\": 522.107, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 522.107, \"end\": 522.227, \"score\": 0.624}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 522.227, \"end\": 522.868, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 522.868, \"end\": 522.988, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 522.988, \"end\": 523.108, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 523.108, \"end\": 523.268, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 523.268, \"end\": 523.509, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 523.509, \"end\": 523.929, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 523.929, \"end\": 524.149, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 524.149, \"end\": 524.329, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 524.329, \"end\": 524.409, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 524.409, \"end\": 524.57, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 524.57, \"end\": 524.79, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 524.79, \"end\": 524.91, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 524.91, \"end\": 524.93, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 524.93, \"end\": 525.03, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 525.03, \"end\": 525.13, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 525.13, \"end\": 525.29, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 525.29, \"end\": 525.471, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 525.471, \"end\": 525.611, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 525.611, \"end\": 525.631, \"score\": 0.003}]}, {\"start\": 528.293, \"end\": 553.514, \"text\": \"這個跟委員報告他這是使用者只要是一個偵查一個最先的一個開頭沒辦法去做這個再做進一步的釐清嘛所以我們譬如說使用者只要調了之後我們才有辦法去進下一步譬如說調取這些的通聯的這些記錄這下一步才有做到所以使用者只要是第一步而已這個吼這個有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 528.293, \"end\": 528.534, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 528.534, \"end\": 528.934, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 528.934, \"end\": 529.374, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 529.374, \"end\": 529.554, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 529.554, \"end\": 529.855, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 529.855, \"end\": 530.015, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 530.015, \"end\": 530.195, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 530.195, \"end\": 530.275, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 530.275, \"end\": 530.315, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 530.315, \"end\": 530.575, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 530.575, \"end\": 530.776, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 530.776, \"end\": 531.836, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 531.836, \"end\": 531.956, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 531.956, \"end\": 532.257, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 538.102, \"end\": 538.462, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"釐\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 538.462, \"end\": 538.722, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 538.722, \"end\": 539.463, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 539.463, \"end\": 539.583, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 539.583, \"end\": 539.883, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 539.883, \"end\": 540.103, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"譬\", \"start\": 540.103, \"end\": 540.223, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 540.223, \"end\": 540.504, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 540.504, \"end\": 540.624, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 540.624, \"end\": 540.784, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 540.784, \"end\": 540.924, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 540.924, \"end\": 541.024, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 541.024, 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,469 --> 00:00:11,671\n主席我們先請政部長有請政部長委員早部長早我們這個禮拜我們司法及法制委員會用了三天的時間\n\n2\n00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:47,815\n就針對我們行政院所推出針對國人所關心目前這個詐騙集團橫行我們這個台灣的這個詐欺犯罪的這個成為國人最為困擾以及目前這個這個最對自然擾亂最大對人民這個財產侵害最大的一個犯罪形態\n\n3\n00:00:49,246 --> 00:00:58,377\n我們行政院所推出的這個打詐釋法那我們這個本委員會用三天的時間到審到今天這第三個這個是通訊監察法那這個\n\n4\n00:01:01,536 --> 00:01:20,203\n通訊監察法這個的修法事實上已經一方面倡議已久了一方面我們過去也曾有各方有非常充分而且總長的討論最主要原因是因為通訊監察一現在我們像我們這個這個\n\n5\n00:01:24,246 --> 00:01:50,080\n目前的這些可以說我們說現在的犯罪形態基本上整個犯罪形態犯罪手法犯罪工具他基本上這個在在利用這個現代的科技科技的進步事實上是不斷的推陳出新我們過去說道高一死魔高一帳那這個這個我們的法制如果我們的在法制面上面對於這個\n\n6\n00:01:53,153 --> 00:02:12,751\n這個有關相關的這些科技科技通訊的這些相關的偵查手法我們法律沒有予以一定程度的授權的話事實上是沒有辦法跟上這個犯罪犯罪形態更新的腳步所以這個部分在剛剛包括這些立法說明裡面我們也都有的說明很清楚但是\n\n7\n00:02:13,905 --> 00:02:36,599\n今天的這個通訊保障監察法他在過去到現在為什麼這麼長時間的討論最主要是因為他一方面對現在這個打擊這個現在一些相關國人關心的重大的治安案件包括詐騙包括其他的許多我們等一下會討論的一些犯罪形態他確實目前這個通訊監察確實是在偵查裡面的關鍵核心尤其是證據取得的關鍵核心\n\n8\n00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:52,973\n但是另外一方面因為這個通訊監察他也對於這個人權保障有一個最密切的關聯因為這個這個\n\n9\n00:02:56,139 --> 00:03:20,496\n對於這個一般通訊使用者而言這個是否受到監察這是完全無法掌握他不像說跟監不像說其他的這個強制處分的方式偵查手法這些可以讓當事者明白知道因為所有的通訊監察都在當事者一定在當事者所不知的情況之下進行\n\n10\n00:03:22,443 --> 00:03:27,184\n所以這個部分這個也在社會上引起很多的關注\n\n11\n00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:52,866\n那我首先就是來請教這個部長你們第一個要必須要跟委員會跟國人說明的就是說為什麼把通訊監察法放在所謂打詐司法裡面他對於目前打我們要偵查打擊這個這個這個我們的詐騙集團的犯罪犯罪形態站著什麼樣重要性這部分我先請部長回答我等一下我請這個警政署\n\n12\n00:03:53,888 --> 00:04:18,225\n警政署副署長等下也現在請上台請部長先回答警政署副署長好謝謝委員那我們知道現在詐團詐欺的詐團的犯罪是我們所有檢警辦的所有案件的最大宗是佔所謂的而且是這個最被害人是非常多那而且現在一個網路時代的一個興起現在以前詐團都用電話來詐騙現在沒有人用電話了\n\n13\n00:04:21,587 --> 00:04:47,812\n現在轉到網路了網路的時代而且他網路也製造很多的一個斷點所以我們現在如果說這個修法不調取我們這個重點就是調取網路的流量的一個記錄如果不調取這些的一個記錄那我想我們真的是在一個偵辦犯罪會變成的落後於整個那個詐團的一些的一個角度我請先請這個警政署齁你說明一下現在\n\n14\n00:04:49,756 --> 00:05:10,656\n我們這次新增的就剛剛部長所講的一個關鍵的就是調取網路流量這件事情對於在目前我們偵辦上面因為我們現在不行嘛現在目前的現行法令你不能調取使用者的這個網路流量嘛所以他在偵查偵訪上面具體的實例他在哪裡會出現問題\n\n15\n00:05:12,233 --> 00:05:39,437\n在整個詐騙集團的這個犯罪過程裡面在我們怎麼證據取得上面在什麼部份會出現問題現在只要是大家可以看到以前就是前一陣子我們常常會接到那個恐嚇恐嚇的那個e-mail那個訊息結果他都是境外跳板的這個我們是查不到就是造成斷點那有這個法通過我們就可以溯源這個有利於這個\n\n16\n00:05:40,417 --> 00:06:07,328\n最主要我這樣子聽起來最主要目前所會製造斷點這個部分他是不是只有這個方式透過調取網路流量我們才可以包括現在大家全民受害的那個網路詐騙其實都是雷同網路詐騙也是嘛他也是在我們在在在偵查的過程中遇到這個這個這個他們所製造的這些斷點都我們就必須要用網路流量來偵查所以目前這個就是我們的困難那這個通過就可以突破\n\n17\n00:06:07,768 --> 00:06:20,994\n好這個謝謝謝謝副署長副署長這個昨天這個我在我們今天就要審查要審查這個這個通訊保障法但是在昨天齁我們這個\n\n18\n00:06:23,302 --> 00:06:37,037\n這個司法改革前天我們這個民間司改會他們也召開了記者會就是針對我們目前的通訊保障的修正他們也提出幾個質疑我覺得這些質疑\n\n19\n00:06:40,185 --> 00:06:58,916\n有他的道理而且社會也有這樣的疑慮所以我希望說今天在這個集會上面我希望部長能夠在就這些部分做一些說明他們有蠻多針對這個通報法這次修正的這些質疑但是我看到的兩個比較大的重點第一個就是我們這次修法這修第11條之一將這個過去這個調取這個這個通訊使用者資料\n\n20\n00:07:08,237 --> 00:07:26,006\n通訊使用者資料過去是檢察官保留跟法官保留那現在我們把這個都拿掉了不是拿掉了我們現在擴大到這個警察他可以直接調取這個通訊使用者的資料這個部分\n\n21\n00:07:27,066 --> 00:07:43,076\n他依照統計過去的的的這些這些這些調取的案件齁這部分是不是請請部請部長來說明我們拿掉拿掉了這個這個有關通訊者欸通訊使用者資料的這個檢察官保留的這個部分是不是請部長說明是一條之一\n\n22\n00:07:44,510 --> 00:08:00,884\n那個使用者資料就是我們那個升登的一個資料大概就是姓名、身份證、字號、住址、聯繫方式我舉個最簡單的例子這德國跟美國他們都不需要法官的令狀我舉個最簡單的例子譬如說我們手機丟一個不明的一個電話號碼結果民眾誤信了結果跟他聯絡他跑來就炸錢了結果他發覺錢拿出去之後\n\n23\n00:08:06,389 --> 00:08:19,944\n他發覺欸這不對去報案報案警察最好就是從這個手機去這個號碼號碼來去查那個使用者資料如果這個還要再跟檢察上申請還要跟法律上申請嘿過去是這樣啊這來不及了這個這個變成說我們才這麼兆團的氣焰才會就騙了一大堆\n\n24\n00:08:25,089 --> 00:08:45,631\n所以我們認為這個對隱私的這個是一個啦因為這個是沒有內容的嘛這個使用的資料只有單純的深燈人的這些的姓名那個門號的這些的基本資料並沒有這個通訊裡面的內容這個民間團體他們質疑的是說按照這樣子通過大概有九成九成的案件都不會經過法院都不會經過法院\n\n25\n00:08:48,293 --> 00:09:13,514\n這個跟委員報告他這是使用者只要是一個偵查一個最先的一個開頭沒辦法去做這個再做進一步的釐清嘛所以我們譬如說使用者只要調了之後我們才有辦法去進下一步譬如說調取這些的通聯的這些記錄這下一步才有做到所以使用者只要是第一步而已這個吼這個有\n\n26\n00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:29,616\n這個部分是民間這個有質疑而且事實上這個民間團體他們希望我們能夠提出完整的人權影響評估其實也並不是純然的反對但是認為說我們在立法過程中對於人權\n\n27\n00:09:30,657 --> 00:09:30,677\n二、繼續併\n\n28\n00:09:48,743 --> 00:10:17,152\n大家對於人權侵害的疑慮能夠做進一步的跟國人的說明否則的話在這整個修法過程我將以等一下進入廣泛討論主條討論這個部分會是一個焦點就是說我們知道說犯罪偵查的需求但是對於人權侵害的疑慮永遠都會是通保法修正的中間大家所角力拔河的一個焦點這部分請部長在這部分能夠責成我們法務部能夠對社會做更清楚的說明以上\n\n29\n00:10:19,192 --> 00:10:19,373\n謝謝三位議員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8469\t11671\t主席我們先請政部長有請政部長委員早部長早我們這個禮拜我們司法及法制委員會用了三天的時間\n24079\t47815\t就針對我們行政院所推出針對國人所關心目前這個詐騙集團橫行我們這個台灣的這個詐欺犯罪的這個成為國人最為困擾以及目前這個這個最對自然擾亂最大對人民這個財產侵害最大的一個犯罪形態\n49246\t58377\t我們行政院所推出的這個打詐釋法那我們這個本委員會用三天的時間到審到今天這第三個這個是通訊監察法那這個\n61536\t80203\t通訊監察法這個的修法事實上已經一方面倡議已久了一方面我們過去也曾有各方有非常充分而且總長的討論最主要原因是因為通訊監察一現在我們像我們這個這個\n84246\t110080\t目前的這些可以說我們說現在的犯罪形態基本上整個犯罪形態犯罪手法犯罪工具他基本上這個在在利用這個現代的科技科技的進步事實上是不斷的推陳出新我們過去說道高一死魔高一帳那這個這個我們的法制如果我們的在法制面上面對於這個\n113153\t132751\t這個有關相關的這些科技科技通訊的這些相關的偵查手法我們法律沒有予以一定程度的授權的話事實上是沒有辦法跟上這個犯罪犯罪形態更新的腳步所以這個部分在剛剛包括這些立法說明裡面我們也都有的說明很清楚但是\n133905\t156599\t今天的這個通訊保障監察法他在過去到現在為什麼這麼長時間的討論最主要是因為他一方面對現在這個打擊這個現在一些相關國人關心的重大的治安案件包括詐騙包括其他的許多我們等一下會討論的一些犯罪形態他確實目前這個通訊監察確實是在偵查裡面的關鍵核心尤其是證據取得的關鍵核心\n164500\t172973\t但是另外一方面因為這個通訊監察他也對於這個人權保障有一個最密切的關聯因為這個這個\n176139\t200496\t對於這個一般通訊使用者而言這個是否受到監察這是完全無法掌握他不像說跟監不像說其他的這個強制處分的方式偵查手法這些可以讓當事者明白知道因為所有的通訊監察都在當事者一定在當事者所不知的情況之下進行\n202443\t207184\t所以這個部分這個也在社會上引起很多的關注\n208800\t232866\t那我首先就是來請教這個部長你們第一個要必須要跟委員會跟國人說明的就是說為什麼把通訊監察法放在所謂打詐司法裡面他對於目前打我們要偵查打擊這個這個這個我們的詐騙集團的犯罪犯罪形態站著什麼樣重要性這部分我先請部長回答我等一下我請這個警政署\n233888\t258225\t警政署副署長等下也現在請上台請部長先回答警政署副署長好謝謝委員那我們知道現在詐團詐欺的詐團的犯罪是我們所有檢警辦的所有案件的最大宗是佔所謂的而且是這個最被害人是非常多那而且現在一個網路時代的一個興起現在以前詐團都用電話來詐騙現在沒有人用電話了\n261587\t287812\t現在轉到網路了網路的時代而且他網路也製造很多的一個斷點所以我們現在如果說這個修法不調取我們這個重點就是調取網路的流量的一個記錄如果不調取這些的一個記錄那我想我們真的是在一個偵辦犯罪會變成的落後於整個那個詐團的一些的一個角度我請先請這個警政署齁你說明一下現在\n289756\t310656\t我們這次新增的就剛剛部長所講的一個關鍵的就是調取網路流量這件事情對於在目前我們偵辦上面因為我們現在不行嘛現在目前的現行法令你不能調取使用者的這個網路流量嘛所以他在偵查偵訪上面具體的實例他在哪裡會出現問題\n312233\t339437\t在整個詐騙集團的這個犯罪過程裡面在我們怎麼證據取得上面在什麼部份會出現問題現在只要是大家可以看到以前就是前一陣子我們常常會接到那個恐嚇恐嚇的那個e-mail那個訊息結果他都是境外跳板的這個我們是查不到就是造成斷點那有這個法通過我們就可以溯源這個有利於這個\n340417\t367328\t最主要我這樣子聽起來最主要目前所會製造斷點這個部分他是不是只有這個方式透過調取網路流量我們才可以包括現在大家全民受害的那個網路詐騙其實都是雷同網路詐騙也是嘛他也是在我們在在在偵查的過程中遇到這個這個這個他們所製造的這些斷點都我們就必須要用網路流量來偵查所以目前這個就是我們的困難那這個通過就可以突破\n367768\t380994\t好 這個謝謝 謝謝副署長副署長這個昨天這個我在我們今天就要審查要審查這個這個通訊保障法但是在昨天齁我們這個\n383302\t397037\t這個司法改革前天我們這個民間司改會他們也召開了記者會就是針對我們目前的通訊保障的修正他們也提出幾個質疑我覺得這些質疑\n400185\t418916\t有他的道理而且社會也有這樣的疑慮所以我希望說今天在這個集會上面我希望部長能夠在就這些部分做一些說明他們有蠻多針對這個通報法這次修正的這些質疑但是我看到的兩個比較大的重點第一個就是我們這次修法這修第11條之一將這個過去這個調取這個這個通訊使用者資料\n428237\t446006\t通訊使用者資料過去是檢察官保留跟法官保留那現在我們把這個都拿掉了不是拿掉了我們現在擴大到這個警察他可以直接調取這個通訊使用者的資料這個部分\n447066\t463076\t他依照統計過去的的的這些這些這些調取的案件齁這部分是不是請請部請部長來說明我們拿掉拿掉了這個這個有關通訊者欸通訊使用者資料的這個檢察官保留的這個部分是不是請部長說明是一條之一\n464510\t480884\t那個使用者資料就是我們那個升登的一個資料大概就是姓名、身份證、字號、住址、聯繫方式我舉個最簡單的例子這德國跟美國他們都不需要法官的令狀我舉個最簡單的例子譬如說我們手機丟一個不明的一個電話號碼結果民眾誤信了結果跟他聯絡他跑來就炸錢了結果他發覺錢拿出去之後\n486389\t499944\t他發覺欸這不對去報案報案警察最好就是從這個手機去這個號碼號碼來去查那個使用者資料如果這個還要再跟檢察上申請還要跟法律上申請嘿過去是這樣啊這來不及了這個這個變成說我們才這麼兆團的氣焰才會就騙了一大堆\n505089\t525631\t所以我們認為這個對隱私的這個是一個啦因為這個是沒有內容的嘛 這個使用的資料只有單純的深燈人的這些的姓名那個門號的這些的基本資料並沒有這個通訊裡面的內容這個民間團體他們質疑的是說按照這樣子通過大概有九成九成的案件都不會經過法院都不會經過法院\n528293\t553514\t這個跟委員報告他這是使用者只要是一個偵查一個最先的一個開頭沒辦法去做這個再做進一步的釐清嘛所以我們譬如說使用者只要調了之後我們才有辦法去進下一步譬如說調取這些的通聯的這些記錄這下一步才有做到所以使用者只要是第一步而已這個吼這個有\n554720\t569616\t這個部分是民間這個有質疑而且事實上這個民間團體他們希望我們能夠提出完整的人權影響評估其實也並不是純然的反對但是認為說我們在立法過程中對於人權\n570657\t570677\t二、繼續併\n588743\t617152\t大家對於人權侵害的疑慮能夠做進一步的跟國人的說明否則的話在這整個修法過程我將以等一下進入廣泛討論主條討論這個部分會是一個焦點就是說我們知道說犯罪偵查的需求但是對於人權侵害的疑慮永遠都會是通保法修正的中間大家所角力拔河的一個焦點這部分請部長在這部分能夠責成我們法務部能夠對社會做更清楚的說明以上\n619192\t619373\t謝謝三位議員\n","txt":"主席我們先請政部長有請政部長委員早部長早我們這個禮拜我們司法及法制委員會用了三天的時間\n就針對我們行政院所推出針對國人所關心目前這個詐騙集團橫行我們這個台灣的這個詐欺犯罪的這個成為國人最為困擾以及目前這個這個最對自然擾亂最大對人民這個財產侵害最大的一個犯罪形態\n我們行政院所推出的這個打詐釋法那我們這個本委員會用三天的時間到審到今天這第三個這個是通訊監察法那這個\n通訊監察法這個的修法事實上已經一方面倡議已久了一方面我們過去也曾有各方有非常充分而且總長的討論最主要原因是因為通訊監察一現在我們像我們這個這個\n目前的這些可以說我們說現在的犯罪形態基本上整個犯罪形態犯罪手法犯罪工具他基本上這個在在利用這個現代的科技科技的進步事實上是不斷的推陳出新我們過去說道高一死魔高一帳那這個這個我們的法制如果我們的在法制面上面對於這個\n這個有關相關的這些科技科技通訊的這些相關的偵查手法我們法律沒有予以一定程度的授權的話事實上是沒有辦法跟上這個犯罪犯罪形態更新的腳步所以這個部分在剛剛包括這些立法說明裡面我們也都有的說明很清楚但是\n今天的這個通訊保障監察法他在過去到現在為什麼這麼長時間的討論最主要是因為他一方面對現在這個打擊這個現在一些相關國人關心的重大的治安案件包括詐騙包括其他的許多我們等一下會討論的一些犯罪形態他確實目前這個通訊監察確實是在偵查裡面的關鍵核心尤其是證據取得的關鍵核心\n但是另外一方面因為這個通訊監察他也對於這個人權保障有一個最密切的關聯因為這個這個\n對於這個一般通訊使用者而言這個是否受到監察這是完全無法掌握他不像說跟監不像說其他的這個強制處分的方式偵查手法這些可以讓當事者明白知道因為所有的通訊監察都在當事者一定在當事者所不知的情況之下進行\n所以這個部分這個也在社會上引起很多的關注\n那我首先就是來請教這個部長你們第一個要必須要跟委員會跟國人說明的就是說為什麼把通訊監察法放在所謂打詐司法裡面他對於目前打我們要偵查打擊這個這個這個我們的詐騙集團的犯罪犯罪形態站著什麼樣重要性這部分我先請部長回答我等一下我請這個警政署\n警政署副署長等下也現在請上台請部長先回答警政署副署長好謝謝委員那我們知道現在詐團詐欺的詐團的犯罪是我們所有檢警辦的所有案件的最大宗是佔所謂的而且是這個最被害人是非常多那而且現在一個網路時代的一個興起現在以前詐團都用電話來詐騙現在沒有人用電話了\n現在轉到網路了網路的時代而且他網路也製造很多的一個斷點所以我們現在如果說這個修法不調取我們這個重點就是調取網路的流量的一個記錄如果不調取這些的一個記錄那我想我們真的是在一個偵辦犯罪會變成的落後於整個那個詐團的一些的一個角度我請先請這個警政署齁你說明一下現在\n我們這次新增的就剛剛部長所講的一個關鍵的就是調取網路流量這件事情對於在目前我們偵辦上面因為我們現在不行嘛現在目前的現行法令你不能調取使用者的這個網路流量嘛所以他在偵查偵訪上面具體的實例他在哪裡會出現問題\n在整個詐騙集團的這個犯罪過程裡面在我們怎麼證據取得上面在什麼部份會出現問題現在只要是大家可以看到以前就是前一陣子我們常常會接到那個恐嚇恐嚇的那個e-mail那個訊息結果他都是境外跳板的這個我們是查不到就是造成斷點那有這個法通過我們就可以溯源這個有利於這個\n最主要我這樣子聽起來最主要目前所會製造斷點這個部分他是不是只有這個方式透過調取網路流量我們才可以包括現在大家全民受害的那個網路詐騙其實都是雷同網路詐騙也是嘛他也是在我們在在在偵查的過程中遇到這個這個這個他們所製造的這些斷點都我們就必須要用網路流量來偵查所以目前這個就是我們的困難那這個通過就可以突破\n好 這個謝謝 謝謝副署長副署長這個昨天這個我在我們今天就要審查要審查這個這個通訊保障法但是在昨天齁我們這個\n這個司法改革前天我們這個民間司改會他們也召開了記者會就是針對我們目前的通訊保障的修正他們也提出幾個質疑我覺得這些質疑\n有他的道理而且社會也有這樣的疑慮所以我希望說今天在這個集會上面我希望部長能夠在就這些部分做一些說明他們有蠻多針對這個通報法這次修正的這些質疑但是我看到的兩個比較大的重點第一個就是我們這次修法這修第11條之一將這個過去這個調取這個這個通訊使用者資料\n通訊使用者資料過去是檢察官保留跟法官保留那現在我們把這個都拿掉了不是拿掉了我們現在擴大到這個警察他可以直接調取這個通訊使用者的資料這個部分\n他依照統計過去的的的這些這些這些調取的案件齁這部分是不是請請部請部長來說明我們拿掉拿掉了這個這個有關通訊者欸通訊使用者資料的這個檢察官保留的這個部分是不是請部長說明是一條之一\n那個使用者資料就是我們那個升登的一個資料大概就是姓名、身份證、字號、住址、聯繫方式我舉個最簡單的例子這德國跟美國他們都不需要法官的令狀我舉個最簡單的例子譬如說我們手機丟一個不明的一個電話號碼結果民眾誤信了結果跟他聯絡他跑來就炸錢了結果他發覺錢拿出去之後\n他發覺欸這不對去報案報案警察最好就是從這個手機去這個號碼號碼來去查那個使用者資料如果這個還要再跟檢察上申請還要跟法律上申請嘿過去是這樣啊這來不及了這個這個變成說我們才這麼兆團的氣焰才會就騙了一大堆\n所以我們認為這個對隱私的這個是一個啦因為這個是沒有內容的嘛 這個使用的資料只有單純的深燈人的這些的姓名那個門號的這些的基本資料並沒有這個通訊裡面的內容這個民間團體他們質疑的是說按照這樣子通過大概有九成九成的案件都不會經過法院都不會經過法院\n這個跟委員報告他這是使用者只要是一個偵查一個最先的一個開頭沒辦法去做這個再做進一步的釐清嘛所以我們譬如說使用者只要調了之後我們才有辦法去進下一步譬如說調取這些的通聯的這些記錄這下一步才有做到所以使用者只要是第一步而已這個吼這個有\n這個部分是民間這個有質疑而且事實上這個民間團體他們希望我們能夠提出完整的人權影響評估其實也並不是純然的反對但是認為說我們在立法過程中對於人權\n二、繼續併\n大家對於人權侵害的疑慮能夠做進一步的跟國人的說明否則的話在這整個修法過程我將以等一下進入廣泛討論主條討論這個部分會是一個焦點就是說我們知道說犯罪偵查的需求但是對於人權侵害的疑慮永遠都會是通保法修正的中間大家所角力拔河的一個焦點這部分請部長在這部分能夠責成我們法務部能夠對社會做更清楚的說明以上\n謝謝三位議員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.469 --> 00:11.671\n主席我們先請政部長有請政部長委員早部長早我們這個禮拜我們司法及法制委員會用了三天的時間\n\n00:24.079 --> 00:47.815\n就針對我們行政院所推出針對國人所關心目前這個詐騙集團橫行我們這個台灣的這個詐欺犯罪的這個成為國人最為困擾以及目前這個這個最對自然擾亂最大對人民這個財產侵害最大的一個犯罪形態\n\n00:49.246 --> 00:58.377\n我們行政院所推出的這個打詐釋法那我們這個本委員會用三天的時間到審到今天這第三個這個是通訊監察法那這個\n\n01:01.536 --> 01:20.203\n通訊監察法這個的修法事實上已經一方面倡議已久了一方面我們過去也曾有各方有非常充分而且總長的討論最主要原因是因為通訊監察一現在我們像我們這個這個\n\n01:24.246 --> 01:50.080\n目前的這些可以說我們說現在的犯罪形態基本上整個犯罪形態犯罪手法犯罪工具他基本上這個在在利用這個現代的科技科技的進步事實上是不斷的推陳出新我們過去說道高一死魔高一帳那這個這個我們的法制如果我們的在法制面上面對於這個\n\n01:53.153 --> 02:12.751\n這個有關相關的這些科技科技通訊的這些相關的偵查手法我們法律沒有予以一定程度的授權的話事實上是沒有辦法跟上這個犯罪犯罪形態更新的腳步所以這個部分在剛剛包括這些立法說明裡面我們也都有的說明很清楚但是\n\n02:13.905 --> 02:36.599\n今天的這個通訊保障監察法他在過去到現在為什麼這麼長時間的討論最主要是因為他一方面對現在這個打擊這個現在一些相關國人關心的重大的治安案件包括詐騙包括其他的許多我們等一下會討論的一些犯罪形態他確實目前這個通訊監察確實是在偵查裡面的關鍵核心尤其是證據取得的關鍵核心\n\n02:44.500 --> 02:52.973\n但是另外一方面因為這個通訊監察他也對於這個人權保障有一個最密切的關聯因為這個這個\n\n02:56.139 --> 03:20.496\n對於這個一般通訊使用者而言這個是否受到監察這是完全無法掌握他不像說跟監不像說其他的這個強制處分的方式偵查手法這些可以讓當事者明白知道因為所有的通訊監察都在當事者一定在當事者所不知的情況之下進行\n\n03:22.443 --> 03:27.184\n所以這個部分這個也在社會上引起很多的關注\n\n03:28.800 --> 03:52.866\n那我首先就是來請教這個部長你們第一個要必須要跟委員會跟國人說明的就是說為什麼把通訊監察法放在所謂打詐司法裡面他對於目前打我們要偵查打擊這個這個這個我們的詐騙集團的犯罪犯罪形態站著什麼樣重要性這部分我先請部長回答我等一下我請這個警政署\n\n03:53.888 --> 04:18.225\n警政署副署長等下也現在請上台請部長先回答警政署副署長好謝謝委員那我們知道現在詐團詐欺的詐團的犯罪是我們所有檢警辦的所有案件的最大宗是佔所謂的而且是這個最被害人是非常多那而且現在一個網路時代的一個興起現在以前詐團都用電話來詐騙現在沒有人用電話了\n\n04:21.587 --> 04:47.812\n現在轉到網路了網路的時代而且他網路也製造很多的一個斷點所以我們現在如果說這個修法不調取我們這個重點就是調取網路的流量的一個記錄如果不調取這些的一個記錄那我想我們真的是在一個偵辦犯罪會變成的落後於整個那個詐團的一些的一個角度我請先請這個警政署齁你說明一下現在\n\n04:49.756 --> 05:10.656\n我們這次新增的就剛剛部長所講的一個關鍵的就是調取網路流量這件事情對於在目前我們偵辦上面因為我們現在不行嘛現在目前的現行法令你不能調取使用者的這個網路流量嘛所以他在偵查偵訪上面具體的實例他在哪裡會出現問題\n\n05:12.233 --> 05:39.437\n在整個詐騙集團的這個犯罪過程裡面在我們怎麼證據取得上面在什麼部份會出現問題現在只要是大家可以看到以前就是前一陣子我們常常會接到那個恐嚇恐嚇的那個e-mail那個訊息結果他都是境外跳板的這個我們是查不到就是造成斷點那有這個法通過我們就可以溯源這個有利於這個\n\n05:40.417 --> 06:07.328\n最主要我這樣子聽起來最主要目前所會製造斷點這個部分他是不是只有這個方式透過調取網路流量我們才可以包括現在大家全民受害的那個網路詐騙其實都是雷同網路詐騙也是嘛他也是在我們在在在偵查的過程中遇到這個這個這個他們所製造的這些斷點都我們就必須要用網路流量來偵查所以目前這個就是我們的困難那這個通過就可以突破\n\n06:07.768 --> 06:20.994\n好這個謝謝謝謝副署長副署長這個昨天這個我在我們今天就要審查要審查這個這個通訊保障法但是在昨天齁我們這個\n\n06:23.302 --> 06:37.037\n這個司法改革前天我們這個民間司改會他們也召開了記者會就是針對我們目前的通訊保障的修正他們也提出幾個質疑我覺得這些質疑\n\n06:40.185 --> 06:58.916\n有他的道理而且社會也有這樣的疑慮所以我希望說今天在這個集會上面我希望部長能夠在就這些部分做一些說明他們有蠻多針對這個通報法這次修正的這些質疑但是我看到的兩個比較大的重點第一個就是我們這次修法這修第11條之一將這個過去這個調取這個這個通訊使用者資料\n\n07:08.237 --> 07:26.006\n通訊使用者資料過去是檢察官保留跟法官保留那現在我們把這個都拿掉了不是拿掉了我們現在擴大到這個警察他可以直接調取這個通訊使用者的資料這個部分\n\n07:27.066 --> 07:43.076\n他依照統計過去的的的這些這些這些調取的案件齁這部分是不是請請部請部長來說明我們拿掉拿掉了這個這個有關通訊者欸通訊使用者資料的這個檢察官保留的這個部分是不是請部長說明是一條之一\n\n07:44.510 --> 08:00.884\n那個使用者資料就是我們那個升登的一個資料大概就是姓名、身份證、字號、住址、聯繫方式我舉個最簡單的例子這德國跟美國他們都不需要法官的令狀我舉個最簡單的例子譬如說我們手機丟一個不明的一個電話號碼結果民眾誤信了結果跟他聯絡他跑來就炸錢了結果他發覺錢拿出去之後\n\n08:06.389 --> 08:19.944\n他發覺欸這不對去報案報案警察最好就是從這個手機去這個號碼號碼來去查那個使用者資料如果這個還要再跟檢察上申請還要跟法律上申請嘿過去是這樣啊這來不及了這個這個變成說我們才這麼兆團的氣焰才會就騙了一大堆\n\n08:25.089 --> 08:45.631\n所以我們認為這個對隱私的這個是一個啦因為這個是沒有內容的嘛這個使用的資料只有單純的深燈人的這些的姓名那個門號的這些的基本資料並沒有這個通訊裡面的內容這個民間團體他們質疑的是說按照這樣子通過大概有九成九成的案件都不會經過法院都不會經過法院\n\n08:48.293 --> 09:13.514\n這個跟委員報告他這是使用者只要是一個偵查一個最先的一個開頭沒辦法去做這個再做進一步的釐清嘛所以我們譬如說使用者只要調了之後我們才有辦法去進下一步譬如說調取這些的通聯的這些記錄這下一步才有做到所以使用者只要是第一步而已這個吼這個有\n\n09:14.720 --> 09:29.616\n這個部分是民間這個有質疑而且事實上這個民間團體他們希望我們能夠提出完整的人權影響評估其實也並不是純然的反對但是認為說我們在立法過程中對於人權\n\n09:30.657 --> 09:30.677\n二、繼續併\n\n09:48.743 --> 10:17.152\n大家對於人權侵害的疑慮能夠做進一步的跟國人的說明否則的話在這整個修法過程我將以等一下進入廣泛討論主條討論這個部分會是一個焦點就是說我們知道說犯罪偵查的需求但是對於人權侵害的疑慮永遠都會是通保法修正的中間大家所角力拔河的一個焦點這部分請部長在這部分能夠責成我們法務部能夠對社會做更清楚的說明以上\n\n10:19.192 --> 10:19.373\n謝謝三位議員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.469,"end":11.671,"text":"主席我們先請政部長有請政部長委員早部長早我們這個禮拜我們司法及法制委員會用了三天的時間"},{"start":24.079,"end":47.815,"text":"就針對我們行政院所推出針對國人所關心目前這個詐騙集團橫行我們這個台灣的這個詐欺犯罪的這個成為國人最為困擾以及目前這個這個最對自然擾亂最大對人民這個財產侵害最大的一個犯罪形態"},{"start":49.246,"end":58.377,"text":"我們行政院所推出的這個打詐釋法那我們這個本委員會用三天的時間到審到今天這第三個這個是通訊監察法那這個"},{"start":61.536,"end":80.203,"text":"通訊監察法這個的修法事實上已經一方面倡議已久了一方面我們過去也曾有各方有非常充分而且總長的討論最主要原因是因為通訊監察一現在我們像我們這個這個"},{"start":84.246,"end":110.08,"text":"目前的這些可以說我們說現在的犯罪形態基本上整個犯罪形態犯罪手法犯罪工具他基本上這個在在利用這個現代的科技科技的進步事實上是不斷的推陳出新我們過去說道高一死魔高一帳那這個這個我們的法制如果我們的在法制面上面對於這個"},{"start":113.153,"end":132.751,"text":"這個有關相關的這些科技科技通訊的這些相關的偵查手法我們法律沒有予以一定程度的授權的話事實上是沒有辦法跟上這個犯罪犯罪形態更新的腳步所以這個部分在剛剛包括這些立法說明裡面我們也都有的說明很清楚但是"},{"start":133.905,"end":156.599,"text":"今天的這個通訊保障監察法他在過去到現在為什麼這麼長時間的討論最主要是因為他一方面對現在這個打擊這個現在一些相關國人關心的重大的治安案件包括詐騙包括其他的許多我們等一下會討論的一些犯罪形態他確實目前這個通訊監察確實是在偵查裡面的關鍵核心尤其是證據取得的關鍵核心"},{"start":164.5,"end":172.973,"text":"但是另外一方面因為這個通訊監察他也對於這個人權保障有一個最密切的關聯因為這個這個"},{"start":176.139,"end":200.496,"text":"對於這個一般通訊使用者而言這個是否受到監察這是完全無法掌握他不像說跟監不像說其他的這個強制處分的方式偵查手法這些可以讓當事者明白知道因為所有的通訊監察都在當事者一定在當事者所不知的情況之下進行"},{"start":202.443,"end":207.184,"text":"所以這個部分這個也在社會上引起很多的關注"},{"start":208.8,"end":232.866,"text":"那我首先就是來請教這個部長你們第一個要必須要跟委員會跟國人說明的就是說為什麼把通訊監察法放在所謂打詐司法裡面他對於目前打我們要偵查打擊這個這個這個我們的詐騙集團的犯罪犯罪形態站著什麼樣重要性這部分我先請部長回答我等一下我請這個警政署"},{"start":233.888,"end":258.225,"text":"警政署副署長等下也現在請上台請部長先回答警政署副署長好謝謝委員那我們知道現在詐團詐欺的詐團的犯罪是我們所有檢警辦的所有案件的最大宗是佔所謂的而且是這個最被害人是非常多那而且現在一個網路時代的一個興起現在以前詐團都用電話來詐騙現在沒有人用電話了"},{"start":261.587,"end":287.812,"text":"現在轉到網路了網路的時代而且他網路也製造很多的一個斷點所以我們現在如果說這個修法不調取我們這個重點就是調取網路的流量的一個記錄如果不調取這些的一個記錄那我想我們真的是在一個偵辦犯罪會變成的落後於整個那個詐團的一些的一個角度我請先請這個警政署齁你說明一下現在"},{"start":289.756,"end":310.656,"text":"我們這次新增的就剛剛部長所講的一個關鍵的就是調取網路流量這件事情對於在目前我們偵辦上面因為我們現在不行嘛現在目前的現行法令你不能調取使用者的這個網路流量嘛所以他在偵查偵訪上面具體的實例他在哪裡會出現問題"},{"start":312.233,"end":339.437,"text":"在整個詐騙集團的這個犯罪過程裡面在我們怎麼證據取得上面在什麼部份會出現問題現在只要是大家可以看到以前就是前一陣子我們常常會接到那個恐嚇恐嚇的那個e-mail那個訊息結果他都是境外跳板的這個我們是查不到就是造成斷點那有這個法通過我們就可以溯源這個有利於這個"},{"start":340.417,"end":367.328,"text":"最主要我這樣子聽起來最主要目前所會製造斷點這個部分他是不是只有這個方式透過調取網路流量我們才可以包括現在大家全民受害的那個網路詐騙其實都是雷同網路詐騙也是嘛他也是在我們在在在偵查的過程中遇到這個這個這個他們所製造的這些斷點都我們就必須要用網路流量來偵查所以目前這個就是我們的困難那這個通過就可以突破"},{"start":367.768,"end":380.994,"text":"好 這個謝謝 謝謝副署長副署長這個昨天這個我在我們今天就要審查要審查這個這個通訊保障法但是在昨天齁我們這個"},{"start":383.302,"end":397.037,"text":"這個司法改革前天我們這個民間司改會他們也召開了記者會就是針對我們目前的通訊保障的修正他們也提出幾個質疑我覺得這些質疑"},{"start":400.185,"end":418.916,"text":"有他的道理而且社會也有這樣的疑慮所以我希望說今天在這個集會上面我希望部長能夠在就這些部分做一些說明他們有蠻多針對這個通報法這次修正的這些質疑但是我看到的兩個比較大的重點第一個就是我們這次修法這修第11條之一將這個過去這個調取這個這個通訊使用者資料"},{"start":428.237,"end":446.006,"text":"通訊使用者資料過去是檢察官保留跟法官保留那現在我們把這個都拿掉了不是拿掉了我們現在擴大到這個警察他可以直接調取這個通訊使用者的資料這個部分"},{"start":447.066,"end":463.076,"text":"他依照統計過去的的的這些這些這些調取的案件齁這部分是不是請請部請部長來說明我們拿掉拿掉了這個這個有關通訊者欸通訊使用者資料的這個檢察官保留的這個部分是不是請部長說明是一條之一"},{"start":464.51,"end":480.884,"text":"那個使用者資料就是我們那個升登的一個資料大概就是姓名、身份證、字號、住址、聯繫方式我舉個最簡單的例子這德國跟美國他們都不需要法官的令狀我舉個最簡單的例子譬如說我們手機丟一個不明的一個電話號碼結果民眾誤信了結果跟他聯絡他跑來就炸錢了結果他發覺錢拿出去之後"},{"start":486.389,"end":499.944,"text":"他發覺欸這不對去報案報案警察最好就是從這個手機去這個號碼號碼來去查那個使用者資料如果這個還要再跟檢察上申請還要跟法律上申請嘿過去是這樣啊這來不及了這個這個變成說我們才這麼兆團的氣焰才會就騙了一大堆"},{"start":505.089,"end":525.631,"text":"所以我們認為這個對隱私的這個是一個啦因為這個是沒有內容的嘛 這個使用的資料只有單純的深燈人的這些的姓名那個門號的這些的基本資料並沒有這個通訊裡面的內容這個民間團體他們質疑的是說按照這樣子通過大概有九成九成的案件都不會經過法院都不會經過法院"},{"start":528.293,"end":553.514,"text":"這個跟委員報告他這是使用者只要是一個偵查一個最先的一個開頭沒辦法去做這個再做進一步的釐清嘛所以我們譬如說使用者只要調了之後我們才有辦法去進下一步譬如說調取這些的通聯的這些記錄這下一步才有做到所以使用者只要是第一步而已這個吼這個有"},{"start":554.72,"end":569.616,"text":"這個部分是民間這個有質疑而且事實上這個民間團體他們希望我們能夠提出完整的人權影響評估其實也並不是純然的反對但是認為說我們在立法過程中對於人權"},{"start":570.657,"end":570.677,"text":"二、繼續併"},{"start":588.743,"end":617.152,"text":"大家對於人權侵害的疑慮能夠做進一步的跟國人的說明否則的話在這整個修法過程我將以等一下進入廣泛討論主條討論這個部分會是一個焦點就是說我們知道說犯罪偵查的需求但是對於人權侵害的疑慮永遠都會是通保法修正的中間大家所角力拔河的一個焦點這部分請部長在這部分能夠責成我們法務部能夠對社會做更清楚的說明以上"},{"start":619.192,"end":619.373,"text":"謝謝三位議員"}]}}}}