{"id":153672,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153672","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b45ce7b3441da2749dbbe5275cafb4df3d3daa592b5b2cb0e268ef1662321ad75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:30:41 - 09:43:59","影片長度":"00:13:18","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:30:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:43:59+08:00","duration":798,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":124,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時30分）謝謝主席，第一個部分有請文化部部長和國教署署長。"],["主席：請李部長、彭署長。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席今天安排這個主題，我們辦公室一直在追蹤關於國家語言還有國家語言發展中心。賴清德總統在世界母語日談了三個非常重要的方向，分別是第一，成立國家語言發展中心；第二，健全國家語言的教育資源；第三，營造多元語言的友善環境。但是我不知道部長或者是署長，在你們相關的政策推動當中，如何去呼應這三個重要的方向？","第一個是關於名稱的問題，之前本席辦公室跟教育部這邊溝通過一個非常、非常重要的事情，而且有很大的困難，我們說在書面的語言上，甚至在課綱或者是非課綱相關的業務裡面，你們都沒有辦法把「閩南語」這三個字換成「臺灣台語」、「臺灣閩南語」或者是「台語」的相關用法，當時是有很多教授陳情跟投稿到論壇上面，可是我們在跟教育部溝通的過程當中發現很大的困難，你們的說法是說離島地區的地方政府認為有相關的問題，那我現在來放一段影片給部長看一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員培瑜：他剛才說「有夠水」，請問部長還有署長，我剛才說的是什麼話？他說「有夠水」，我剛才在說什麼話？部長，請先回答。"],["李部長遠：他講的應該是臺灣台語，或者我們也可以說台語。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長，你剛剛在回答洪孟楷委員的時候，你講台語，你現在用臺灣台語，OK，我可以接受。署長，「有夠水啦」，我在說什麼話？"],["彭署長富源：台語。"],["陳委員培瑜：台語嘛！你看，你也說台語嘛！主席，我可以冒昧問你一下，我剛才在說什麼話？"],["主席：台語。"],["陳委員培瑜：對。但是在教育部的相關書面文件，這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展，我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情？甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台，因為你們的回復說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究，可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年，已經調查過了耶！那文化部也有相關的建議，甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位，必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整，可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見，但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂臺灣台語這個用法。我們來看，在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說，我們相關的口音、相關的腔調都是同一個語系，其實並沒有太大的差異，所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整，或者是我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分，你們也沒有辦法快速調整，非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整？你們在很多業務活動、在很多學校第一線的現場，明明很多活動可以現場就調整，到底哪裡遇到了問題？署長，謝謝。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。有關課綱的部分，國教院在……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒有，課綱的部分我們不談，我可以接受你們目前覺得課綱很難即時地調整，我上一次的說法是說，非課綱的活動業務，第一線的所有公文往來，還有你們在做所有活動的時候，到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情，當然我們希望可以正名回到課綱，但是我覺得那個是短、中長期的工作規劃，可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線活動跟相關業務上，為什麼沒有辦法？剛剛部長也都說了，我在講台語，你也說我在講台語，主席也說我在講台語，大家都說我剛剛在講台語，為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員說明一下，整體在教育的施教過程中、學生學習的過程中，其中課綱所導引出來的教科書，相關的學習占滿大部分，尤其是高中以下的教育，因此部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程，除了在學生的學習，剛才你也講到例如相關的活動，甚至一些非關剛才講的，有關那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些正名或是統整，委員知道，在教育界，我們裡面的那個課綱，它目前在溝通的過程中……"],["陳委員培瑜：好！署長，我的時間有限，我等一下不想超時。"],["彭署長富源：它會影響到整個教育內……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個說法我們之前真的已經聽過了，那我再給你更多的數據告訴你，在國家語言發展報告裡面就已經調查過，社會上大部分人的共識，85%的共識告訴你，一般人稱它為台語，那要不要我告訴署長閩南語這個字是什麼時候生出來的？署長，你知道嗎？"],["彭署長富源：委員請說。"],["陳委員培瑜：當時在國民政府……我們小時候課本學的，所謂「國民政府播遷來臺」這8個字，小時候大家都會背，播遷來臺的時候，因為作為統治者的工具，他把臺灣列為是單獨一個省，然後日後要反攻大陸，我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西，所以臺灣就被定為閩南語這件事情，它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法，在臺灣主體性強調這麼多年之後，你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動。當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上，我們辦公室只是要再一次強調，在這件事情上，我們積極地想要跟教育部溝通，然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助，不管是透過文化部的角色，加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通，或者是在相關業務的推動上，到底有哪一些可以調整，這個部分因為我時間有限，是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論？包含目前共識的部分，我剛剛已經說了，相關的研究85%，而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了，教育部如何堅定立場，在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整。再來，修改閩南語為國家語言發展方案之建議書面用語這件事情，我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作，以上是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育及文化委員會的所有委員？"],["彭署長富源：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追，署長，你知道我們已經追很久了。","文化部長請回，謝謝李部長，謝謝。","關於師資的部分，剛剛洪孟楷委員也說了，那我就直接講重點，在很多的網路社群上，我們看到有老師是這樣告訴小孩的，說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種，不然後面會產生配課、排課、綁班……最後學生會因為學生團體活動時間跟直播共學時間不能配合，而必須自行跟直播的老師約補課的窘境。所以剛剛署長你說了，有直播很好，有數位學習很好，師資越來越多也很好，但是現場的困境是老師是這樣告訴小孩的；甚至還有說所謂直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間，還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語，這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的；甚至還有一個小學是語文資優班，他們甚至告訴學生說本土語言的時間你們不用來上課，我們不會排課，你們回家自學，但是因為他是語言資優班的小孩，每一個都可以通過相關考試。署長，你不要問我個別是什麼學校，我要講的是在學校的現場，不管是師資或是老師的心態，或者是排課的教務人員的心態，有非常、非常大的問題。","我們知道你們真的很努力在提升師資這個部分，真的要謝謝教育部，可是另外一個困境，我們來看一下南投，到底有什麼方法可以解決現場第一線的困境呢？以南投為例，他們在原住民語的部分，就詢問縣政府的承辦人員，在客語的部分就問鄰近的學校，然後再加上因為師資缺乏，甚至沒有經過教師甄試的也可以進來，好！沒關係，假設他在職提升我們也可以接受。可是我想要問一下，教育部有沒有機會連同客委會、原民會，還有地方政府、各級學校代表，把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成，讓各地方排課的老師、校長、主任，他們在需要找人的時候，可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性，甚至讓這些真的有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師知道，透過跑校、跑班，他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力，關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難？"],["彭署長富源：其實現行就有，只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中，我們來稍微看一下，剛才有三個，那三個裡面……"],["陳委員培瑜：現行就有，但是到底發生了什麼問題？"],["彭署長富源：對，所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下，但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["彭署長富源：會後可以到委員辦公室，再就一些脈絡跟委員報告。首先回到剛剛那三個，高中的部分如果排課的話，他排直播共學，他是要跟直播共學團隊，有600多個老師到800個老師，族語還有259個，除了可以線上之外，還可以實體教學的老師。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以看起來人數也是有的、語種也是有的……"],["彭署長富源：對，所以他會是用媒合。"],["陳委員培瑜：媒合機制也是有的，可是通常教育部的政策到了地方，一定會產生一些問題，那這個部分我們就一起來努力，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以如果人才資料庫已經有了，我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：那這個部分署長請回。","接下來要請文化部長，謝謝。文化部轄下有非常多相關的館所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動，我們來看一下，目前你們的規劃是這樣，文化部各館所提供多元國家語言服務，文化部的這些館所依照自己的屬性、區域特色，結合新興媒體，這個是文化部一直在做的事情，我們在相關的活動裡面看到有「台語路」的朋友他們給我們的相關問卷提到，在活動現場，是國家語言活動的現場，不是華語活動的現場，台語活動講故事、台語活動做戲劇、台語活動做的所有演出，結果大部分在講台上的人、在做活動的人，他甚至不會全台語，他可能只有部分使用台語。不管是老師的部分或者是助教的部分或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境，我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上，一定有很多年輕人，甚至跟我年紀差不多的人，也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語，我想這個困境我們都認同，而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境，那到底我們可以怎麼做？我們就問了文化部，你們在相關的活動補助裡面，還有沒有其他增能的政策協助這些第一線的人，因為我們不能去質疑，我們也不要去罵第一線的人說他們做錯了，我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼，結果你們給我們的回復裡面，我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動、你們也補助了很多錢、你們有很多館所做了很有特色的事情，我們都認同，而且我們也肯定文化部的努力，但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制，甚至這些有心想要上場的講師，或者是做戲劇的人，他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好，或是自己的客語不夠好、自己的原民語不夠好，那他們到底可以做什麼，文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告一下，我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候，的確因為師資的來源或者是語言訓練的不夠，在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們儘量用台語，可是沒有比例上的要求，所以在第二年、下一個年度執行的時候會逐步地要求台語要達到一定的比例。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可是我們……"],["李次長靜慧：可是要怎麼達到這個比例？"],["陳委員培瑜：對。"],["李次長靜慧：委員您提醒的，所以我們會鼓勵同仁或者是這一些應邀來的師資，他們可以去上語言課程，然後也要有更多的語言課程……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，次長，我跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例，也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦，不要常常很多立法院或行政院的政策搞得第一線人仰馬翻。我們來看一個案例，這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展，內容都出來之後，首先，館方會提供所有展覽文字，當然是華文，由專業的人士翻譯為台語文並且錄音，讓工作人員學習有關的用字及發音；再安排研習課程，讓導覽人員閱讀台文版跟用台語表達工作內容，甚至會有專業人士提供標準版讓現場導覽人員、志工或者是講師有相關的對照參考，也就是case by case，如果今天有這個展，我就加強這些內容的學習，透過一個、一個的策展，透過一個、一個的活動，累積我的母語使用能力。我覺得這可能會讓現場的第一線工作人員感覺良好一點，也就是我們不是逼他無止境的上課，不是逼他漫無目的地上課，但是透過策展這件事情，拜託次長協助文化部所屬的各個館所更積極的培力及增能，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好，沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：也拜託有沒有機會在一個月內提供相關報告？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["李次長靜慧：OK，好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長，謝謝部長，謝謝主席，國家語言我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，部長請回。","接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 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\"目前你們這些規劃是這樣文化部各館所提供多元國家語言服務文化部這些館所依照自己的屬性區特色結合新興媒體這個是文化部一直在做的事情好下一頁那我們這在相關的活動裡面看到有臺語錄的朋友他們給我們相關問卷說在活動現場說好了是國家語言活動的現場不是華語活動的現場臺語活動講故事臺語活動做戲劇臺語活動做說的演出結果大部分的人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 590.563, \"end\": 590.803, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 590.803, \"end\": 591.123, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 591.123, \"end\": 591.404, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 591.404, \"end\": 591.944, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 591.944, \"end\": 592.404, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 592.404, \"end\": 592.484, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 592.484, \"end\": 592.644, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 592.644, \"end\": 592.764, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 592.764, \"end\": 593.064, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"館\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", 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00:00:46,410\n謝謝主席今天安排這個主題我們辦公室一直在追蹤關於國家語言還有國家語言發展中心來下一頁賴清德總統在世界母語日他談了三個非常重要的方向三個方向分別是成立國家語言發展中心第二個健全國家語言的教育資源第三個營造多元語言的友善環境但是我不知道部長或者是署長在你們相關的政策推動當中如何去呼應這三個重要的方向我們來看一下第一個來下一頁\n\n3\n00:00:48,491 --> 00:01:14,451\n第一個是關於名稱的問題教育部目前我們之前辦公室跟教育部這邊溝通過一個非常非常重要的事情而且有很大的困難我們說你們在書面的語言上甚至在課綱或者是非課綱相關的業務裡面你們都沒有辦法把閩南語這三個字換成臺灣台語或者是臺灣閩南語或者是臺語的相關用法那當時是有很多教授陳情跟投稿到論壇上面\n\n4\n00:01:15,692 --> 00:01:28,818\n可是我們在跟教育部溝通的過程當中發現很大的困難你們的說法是說李島地區的地方政府認為有相關的問題那我現在來放一段影片給部長看一下\n\n5\n00:01:41,305 --> 00:01:48,627\n他剛才說有夠漂亮啦請問部長還有署長我剛才說的是什麼話?他說有夠漂亮我剛才在說什麼話?部長請先回答他講的應該是臺灣台語部長你剛剛在回答洪孟凱委員的時候你講台語你先用臺灣台語OK我可以接受署長有夠漂亮啦我在說什麼話?\n\n6\n00:02:10,045 --> 00:02:35,761\n台語你看你也說台語嘛主席我可以冒昧問你一下我剛才在說什麼話台語但是在教育部的相關書面文件這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台因為你們的回覆當中下一頁你們的回覆說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年已經調查過了耶\n\n7\n00:02:37,262 --> 00:02:46,990\n那文化部也有相關的建議甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂台灣台語這個用法我們來看在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說\n\n8\n00:02:57,899 --> 00:03:19,716\n我們相關的口音相關的腔調都是同一個語系其實並沒有太大的差異所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整或者是在我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分沒有辦法快速調非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整你們明明在很多業務活動在很多學校第一線的現場明明很多活動可以現場就調整到底哪裡遇到了問題\n\n9\n00:03:21,667 --> 00:03:26,148\n謝謝委員有關課綱的部分國教院課綱的部分我們不談我可以接受你們現在目前覺得課綱很難及時的調整我上一次的說法是說非課綱的活動業務第一線的所有公文往來還有你們在做所有活動的時候到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情\n\n10\n00:03:42,353 --> 00:03:57,021\n當然我們希望可以證明回到課綱但是我覺得那個是短中程長期的工作規劃可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線的活動跟相關業務上為什麼沒有辦法剛剛部長也都說了我在講台語你也講我在講台語主席也講我在講台語大家都講在講台語為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整\n\n11\n00:04:04,630 --> 00:04:23,460\n整體在教育的施教的過程中學生學習的過程中其中課綱他所導引出來的教科書相關的學習占滿大部分尤其是高中以下的教育因此在部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程\n\n12\n00:04:24,540 --> 00:04:43,331\n除了在學生的學習,剛才您也講到例如相關的活動甚至一些非官剛才講的有關的那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些證明或是在統整那剛才委員就可以知道在教育界我們裡面那個課綱他目前在溝通過程中他會影響到整個教育內\n\n13\n00:04:49,955 --> 00:04:49,975\n委員請說\n\n14\n00:05:13,340 --> 00:05:36,076\n當時在國民政府所謂我們小時候課本學的所謂國民政府破千來台這八個字小時候大家都會背破千來台的時候因為作為統治者的工具他把台灣列為是一個單獨一個省然後日後要反攻大陸我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西然後所以台灣就被定為閩南語這件事情它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法\n\n15\n00:05:36,736 --> 00:05:55,771\n在台灣主體性然後這麼多年強調之後但是你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上我們辦公室只是要再一次強調我們在這件事情上我們積極想要跟教育部溝通然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助不管是透過文化部的角色\n\n16\n00:05:56,431 --> 00:06:26,051\n加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通或者是在相關業務的推動上到底有哪一些可以調整下一頁這個部分因為我時間有限是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論包含目前共識的部分我剛剛已經說了相關的研究85%而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了教育部如何堅定立場在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整再來修改閩南語的國家語言發展方向之建議書面用語這件事情我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作以上\n\n17\n00:06:26,472 --> 00:06:30,544\n是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育文化委員會所有委員?好的\n\n18\n00:06:31,311 --> 00:06:58,078\n好,那這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追喔,署長你知道我們已經追很久了好來,下一個,謝謝關於師資的部分那文化部長請回,謝謝李部長關於師資的部分剛剛洪孟凱委員也說了那我就直接講重點,我們來看下一頁在很多的網路社群上我們看到有老師老師是這樣告訴小孩的說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種喔不然後面會產生配客、台客\n\n19\n00:07:15,353 --> 00:07:33,222\n甚至還有說所謂直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的甚至還有一個小學是語文自由班他們甚至告訴學生本土語言的時間你們不用來上課我們不會排課你們回家自學\n\n20\n00:07:35,643 --> 00:07:48,418\n但是因為他是語言自由班的小孩每一個都可以通過相關考試署長你不要問我個別是什麼學校我要講的是在學校的現場不管是實質或者是老師的心態或者是排課的教務人員的心態有非常非常大的問題我們來往下看\n\n21\n00:07:50,560 --> 00:08:16,529\n那我們知道你們師資真的很努力在提升這個部分真的要謝謝教育部往下可是另外一個困境我們來看一下南投那到底有什麼方法可以解決現場第一線的困境呢以南投為例他們在原住民語的部分就詢問縣政府的承辦人員在客語的部分就問鄰近的學校所以然後再加上因為師資缺乏甚至沒有經過教室增試的也可以進來好沒關係假設他再次提升我們也可以接手好往下可是\n\n22\n00:08:17,389 --> 00:08:44,958\n我想要問一下教育部有沒有機會聯同客委會、原民會還有地方政府各級學校代表把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成讓各地方的排課的老師、校長、主任他們在需要找人的時候他可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性甚至真的有心讓這些有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師他也知道他透過跑校跑班\n\n23\n00:08:46,178 --> 00:09:09,179\n他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難其實現行就有那只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中我們來稍微看一下剛才有三格那三格裡面現行就有但是到底發生了什麼問題對所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講是會後可以到委員辦公室再就一些脈絡跟委員辦公室\n\n24\n00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:34,054\n首先回到剛剛那三個,高中的部分如果排課的話他排直播共學他是要跟直播共學團隊有600多個老師到800個老師足以還有259個直接可以線上之外還可以實體教學的老師所以看起來人數也是有的,語種也是有的,然後媒合機制也是有的可是通常教育部的政策到的地方一定會產生一些問題那這個部分我們就一起來努力好不好\n\n25\n00:09:34,434 --> 00:09:49,142\n所以如果人才已經資料庫有了我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論好那這個部分署長請回接下來要請文化部長謝謝文化部轄下有非常多相關的管所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動來看一下下一頁\n\n26\n00:09:50,563 --> 00:10:19,634\n目前你們這些規劃是這樣文化部各館所提供多元國家語言服務文化部這些館所依照自己的屬性區特色結合新興媒體這個是文化部一直在做的事情好下一頁那我們這在相關的活動裡面看到有臺語錄的朋友他們給我們相關問卷說在活動現場說好了是國家語言活動的現場不是華語活動的現場臺語活動講故事臺語活動做戲劇臺語活動做說的演出結果大部分的人\n\n27\n00:10:20,134 --> 00:10:46,790\n在講台上的人在做活動的人他甚至不會全台語他可能只有部分使用台語不管是老師的部分下一頁或者是助教的部分下一頁或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上一定有很多年輕人或者是甚至跟我年紀差不多的人也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語我想這個困境我們都認同而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境好下一頁那到底我們可以怎麼做我們就問了\n\n28\n00:10:48,491 --> 00:11:11,465\n文化部你們在相關的活動補助裏面還有沒有其他的增能的政策協助這些第一線的人因為我們不能去質疑我們也不要去罵第一線人做錯了我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼下一頁結果你們給我們的回覆裏面我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動你們也補助了很多錢你們很多管所做了很有特色的事情我們都認同而且我們也肯定文化部的努力但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制\n\n29\n00:11:14,827 --> 00:11:27,316\n甚至這些有心想要上場的講師或者是做戲劇的人他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好或是自己的客語不夠好自己的原名語不夠好那他們到底可以做什麼文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們\n\n30\n00:11:33,087 --> 00:11:47,866\n我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候的確因為失智的來源或是我們的語言信任不夠我們在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們盡量用台語可是沒有比例上的一個要求\n\n31\n00:11:48,206 --> 00:12:04,366\n所以在第二年我們下一個年度執行的時候現在會逐步的要求這個臺語一定要達到一定的比例可是要怎麼達到這個比例我已經提醒的所以我們會鼓勵我們的同仁或者是這一些應該來的師資課程他們可以去上語言課程\n\n32\n00:12:05,847 --> 00:12:23,802\n沒關係,至少跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦不要常常很多立法院或行政院政策搞到第一線的人仁養馬翻我們來看一個案例這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展之後內容都出來之後一、館方會提供所有展覽文字當然是華文有專業的人士翻譯為台語文並且錄音讓工作人員學習有關的用字跟發音再安排研習課程讓導覽人員閱讀臺文版跟台語的表達\n\n33\n00:12:33,630 --> 00:12:39,711\n的工作內容甚至會有專業的人士提供標準版讓現場導覽的人志工的人或者是講師有相關的對照參考也就是說casebyCase如果我今天有這個展我就加強這些內容的學習透過一個一個的策展透過一個一個的活動累積我的母語使用能力我覺得這可能會讓現場的第一線工作人員感覺良好一點也就是我們不是逼他無止盡的上課不是逼他\n\n34\n00:12:58,655 --> 00:12:58,855\n謝謝次長、謝謝部長、謝謝主席。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n83\t4690\t請李部長、彭署長\n17550\t46410\t謝謝主席今天安排這個主題我們辦公室一直在追蹤關於國家語言還有國家語言發展中心來下一頁賴清德總統在世界母語日他談了三個非常重要的方向三個方向分別是成立國家語言發展中心第二個健全國家語言的教育資源第三個營造多元語言的友善環境但是我不知道部長或者是署長在你們相關的政策推動當中如何去呼應這三個重要的方向我們來看一下第一個來下一頁\n48491\t74451\t第一個是關於名稱的問題教育部目前我們之前辦公室跟教育部這邊溝通過一個非常非常重要的事情而且有很大的困難我們說你們在書面的語言上甚至在課綱或者是非課綱相關的業務裡面你們都沒有辦法把閩南語這三個字換成臺灣台語或者是臺灣閩南語或者是臺語的相關用法那當時是有很多教授陳情跟投稿到論壇上面\n75692\t88818\t可是我們在跟教育部溝通的過程當中發現很大的困難你們的說法是說李島地區的地方政府認為有相關的問題那我現在來放一段影片給部長看一下\n101305\t108627\t他剛才說有夠漂亮啦請問部長還有署長我剛才說的是什麼話?他說有夠漂亮我剛才在說什麼話?部長請先回答他講的應該是臺灣台語部長你剛剛在回答洪孟凱委員的時候你講台語你先用臺灣台語OK我可以接受署長有夠漂亮啦我在說什麼話?\n130045\t155761\t台語你看你也說台語嘛主席我可以冒昧問你一下我剛才在說什麼話台語但是在教育部的相關書面文件這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台因為你們的回覆當中下一頁你們的回覆說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年已經調查過了耶\n157262\t166990\t那文化部也有相關的建議甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂台灣台語這個用法我們來看在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說\n177899\t199716\t我們相關的口音相關的腔調都是同一個語系其實並沒有太大的差異所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整或者是在我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分沒有辦法快速調 非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整你們明明在很多業務活動在很多學校第一線的現場明明很多活動可以現場就調整到底哪裡遇到了問題\n201667\t206148\t謝謝委員有關課綱的部分國教院課綱的部分我們不談我可以接受你們現在目前覺得課綱很難及時的調整我上一次的說法是說非課綱的活動業務第一線的所有公文往來還有你們在做所有活動的時候到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情\n222353\t237021\t當然我們希望可以證明回到課綱但是我覺得那個是短中程長期的工作規劃可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線的活動跟相關業務上為什麼沒有辦法剛剛部長也都說了我在講台語你也講我在講台語主席也講我在講台語大家都講在講台語為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整\n244630\t263460\t整體在教育的施教的過程中學生學習的過程中其中課綱他所導引出來的教科書相關的學習占滿大部分尤其是高中以下的教育因此在部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程\n264540\t283331\t除了在學生的學習,剛才您也講到例如相關的活動甚至一些非官剛才講的有關的那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些證明或是在統整那剛才委員就可以知道在教育界我們裡面那個課綱他目前在溝通過程中他會影響到整個教育內\n289955\t289975\t委員請說\n313340\t336076\t當時在國民政府所謂我們小時候課本學的所謂國民政府破千來台這八個字小時候大家都會背破千來台的時候因為作為統治者的工具他把台灣列為是一個單獨一個省然後日後要反攻大陸我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西然後所以台灣就被定為閩南語這件事情它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法\n336736\t355771\t在台灣主體性然後這麼多年強調之後但是你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上我們辦公室只是要再一次強調我們在這件事情上我們積極想要跟教育部溝通然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助不管是透過文化部的角色\n356431\t386051\t加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通或者是在相關業務的推動上到底有哪一些可以調整下一頁這個部分因為我時間有限是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論包含目前共識的部分我剛剛已經說了相關的研究85%而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了教育部如何堅定立場在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整再來修改閩南語的國家語言發展方向之建議書面用語這件事情我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作以上\n386472\t390544\t是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育文化委員會所有委員?好的\n391311\t418078\t好,那這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追喔,署長你知道我們已經追很久了好來,下一個,謝謝關於師資的部分那文化部長請回,謝謝李部長關於師資的部分剛剛洪孟凱委員也說了那我就直接講重點,我們來看下一頁在很多的網路社群上我們看到有老師老師是這樣告訴小孩的說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種喔不然後面會產生配客、台客\n418558\t435213\t總檢討\n435353\t453222\t甚至還有說所謂直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的甚至還有一個小學是語文自由班他們甚至告訴學生本土語言的時間你們不用來上課我們不會排課你們回家自學\n455643\t468418\t但是因為他是語言自由班的小孩每一個都可以通過相關考試署長你不要問我個別是什麼學校我要講的是在學校的現場不管是實質或者是老師的心態或者是排課的教務人員的心態有非常非常大的問題我們來往下看\n470560\t496529\t那我們知道你們師資真的很努力在提升這個部分真的要謝謝教育部往下可是另外一個困境我們來看一下南投那到底有什麼方法可以解決現場第一線的困境呢以南投為例他們在原住民語的部分就詢問縣政府的承辦人員在客語的部分就問鄰近的學校所以然後再加上因為師資缺乏甚至沒有經過教室增試的也可以進來好沒關係假設他再次提升我們也可以接手好往下可是\n497389\t524958\t我想要問一下教育部有沒有機會聯同客委會、原民會還有地方政府各級學校代表把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成讓各地方的排課的老師、校長、主任他們在需要找人的時候他可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性甚至真的有心讓這些有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師他也知道他透過跑校跑班\n526178\t549179\t他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難其實現行就有那只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中我們來稍微看一下剛才有三格那三格裡面現行就有但是到底發生了什麼問題對所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講是會後可以到委員辦公室再就一些脈絡跟委員辦公室\n549960\t574054\t首先回到剛剛那三個,高中的部分如果排課的話他排直播共學他是要跟直播共學團隊有600多個老師到800個老師足以還有259個直接可以線上之外還可以實體教學的老師所以看起來人數也是有的,語種也是有的,然後媒合機制也是有的可是通常教育部的政策到的地方一定會產生一些問題那這個部分我們就一起來努力好不好\n574434\t589142\t所以如果人才已經資料庫有了我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論好那這個部分署長請回接下來要請文化部長謝謝文化部轄下有非常多相關的管所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動來看一下下一頁\n590563\t619634\t目前你們這些規劃是這樣文化部各館所提供多元國家語言服務文化部這些館所依照自己的屬性區特色結合新興媒體這個是文化部一直在做的事情好下一頁那我們這在相關的活動裡面看到有臺語錄的朋友他們給我們相關問卷說在活動現場說好了是國家語言活動的現場不是華語活動的現場臺語活動講故事臺語活動做戲劇臺語活動做說的演出結果大部分的人\n620134\t646790\t在講台上的人在做活動的人他甚至不會全台語他可能只有部分使用台語不管是老師的部分下一頁或者是助教的部分下一頁或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上一定有很多年輕人或者是甚至跟我年紀差不多的人也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語我想這個困境我們都認同而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境好下一頁那到底我們可以怎麼做我們就問了\n648491\t671465\t文化部你們在相關的活動補助裏面還有沒有其他的增能的政策協助這些第一線的人因為我們不能去質疑我們也不要去罵第一線人做錯了我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼下一頁結果你們給我們的回覆裏面我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動你們也補助了很多錢你們很多管所做了很有特色的事情我們都認同而且我們也肯定文化部的努力但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制\n674827\t687316\t甚至這些有心想要上場的講師或者是做戲劇的人他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好或是自己的客語不夠好自己的原名語不夠好那他們到底可以做什麼文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們\n693087\t707866\t我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候的確因為失智的來源或是我們的語言信任不夠我們在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們盡量用台語可是沒有比例上的一個要求\n708206\t724366\t所以在第二年我們下一個年度執行的時候現在會逐步的要求這個臺語一定要達到一定的比例可是要怎麼達到這個比例我已經提醒的所以我們會鼓勵我們的同仁或者是這一些應該來的師資課程他們可以去上語言課程\n725847\t743802\t沒關係,至少跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦不要常常很多立法院或行政院政策搞到第一線的人仁養馬翻我們來看一個案例這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展之後內容都出來之後一、館方會提供所有展覽文字當然是華文有專業的人士翻譯為台語文並且錄音讓工作人員學習有關的用字跟發音再安排研習課程讓導覽人員閱讀臺文版跟台語的表達\n753630\t759711\t的工作內容甚至會有專業的人士提供標準版讓現場導覽的人志工的人或者是講師有相關的對照參考也就是說case by Case如果我今天有這個展我就加強這些內容的學習透過一個一個的策展透過一個一個的活動累積我的母語使用能力我覺得這可能會讓現場的第一線工作人員感覺良好一點也就是我們不是逼他無止盡的上課不是逼他\n778655\t778855\t謝謝次長、謝謝部長、謝謝主席。\n","txt":"請李部長、彭署長\n謝謝主席今天安排這個主題我們辦公室一直在追蹤關於國家語言還有國家語言發展中心來下一頁賴清德總統在世界母語日他談了三個非常重要的方向三個方向分別是成立國家語言發展中心第二個健全國家語言的教育資源第三個營造多元語言的友善環境但是我不知道部長或者是署長在你們相關的政策推動當中如何去呼應這三個重要的方向我們來看一下第一個來下一頁\n第一個是關於名稱的問題教育部目前我們之前辦公室跟教育部這邊溝通過一個非常非常重要的事情而且有很大的困難我們說你們在書面的語言上甚至在課綱或者是非課綱相關的業務裡面你們都沒有辦法把閩南語這三個字換成臺灣台語或者是臺灣閩南語或者是臺語的相關用法那當時是有很多教授陳情跟投稿到論壇上面\n可是我們在跟教育部溝通的過程當中發現很大的困難你們的說法是說李島地區的地方政府認為有相關的問題那我現在來放一段影片給部長看一下\n他剛才說有夠漂亮啦請問部長還有署長我剛才說的是什麼話?他說有夠漂亮我剛才在說什麼話?部長請先回答他講的應該是臺灣台語部長你剛剛在回答洪孟凱委員的時候你講台語你先用臺灣台語OK我可以接受署長有夠漂亮啦我在說什麼話?\n台語你看你也說台語嘛主席我可以冒昧問你一下我剛才在說什麼話台語但是在教育部的相關書面文件這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台因為你們的回覆當中下一頁你們的回覆說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年已經調查過了耶\n那文化部也有相關的建議甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂台灣台語這個用法我們來看在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說\n我們相關的口音相關的腔調都是同一個語系其實並沒有太大的差異所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整或者是在我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分沒有辦法快速調 非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整你們明明在很多業務活動在很多學校第一線的現場明明很多活動可以現場就調整到底哪裡遇到了問題\n謝謝委員有關課綱的部分國教院課綱的部分我們不談我可以接受你們現在目前覺得課綱很難及時的調整我上一次的說法是說非課綱的活動業務第一線的所有公文往來還有你們在做所有活動的時候到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情\n當然我們希望可以證明回到課綱但是我覺得那個是短中程長期的工作規劃可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線的活動跟相關業務上為什麼沒有辦法剛剛部長也都說了我在講台語你也講我在講台語主席也講我在講台語大家都講在講台語為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整\n整體在教育的施教的過程中學生學習的過程中其中課綱他所導引出來的教科書相關的學習占滿大部分尤其是高中以下的教育因此在部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程\n除了在學生的學習,剛才您也講到例如相關的活動甚至一些非官剛才講的有關的那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些證明或是在統整那剛才委員就可以知道在教育界我們裡面那個課綱他目前在溝通過程中他會影響到整個教育內\n委員請說\n當時在國民政府所謂我們小時候課本學的所謂國民政府破千來台這八個字小時候大家都會背破千來台的時候因為作為統治者的工具他把台灣列為是一個單獨一個省然後日後要反攻大陸我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西然後所以台灣就被定為閩南語這件事情它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法\n在台灣主體性然後這麼多年強調之後但是你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上我們辦公室只是要再一次強調我們在這件事情上我們積極想要跟教育部溝通然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助不管是透過文化部的角色\n加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通或者是在相關業務的推動上到底有哪一些可以調整下一頁這個部分因為我時間有限是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論包含目前共識的部分我剛剛已經說了相關的研究85%而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了教育部如何堅定立場在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整再來修改閩南語的國家語言發展方向之建議書面用語這件事情我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作以上\n是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育文化委員會所有委員?好的\n好,那這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追喔,署長你知道我們已經追很久了好來,下一個,謝謝關於師資的部分那文化部長請回,謝謝李部長關於師資的部分剛剛洪孟凱委員也說了那我就直接講重點,我們來看下一頁在很多的網路社群上我們看到有老師老師是這樣告訴小孩的說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種喔不然後面會產生配客、台客\n總檢討\n甚至還有說所謂直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的甚至還有一個小學是語文自由班他們甚至告訴學生本土語言的時間你們不用來上課我們不會排課你們回家自學\n但是因為他是語言自由班的小孩每一個都可以通過相關考試署長你不要問我個別是什麼學校我要講的是在學校的現場不管是實質或者是老師的心態或者是排課的教務人員的心態有非常非常大的問題我們來往下看\n那我們知道你們師資真的很努力在提升這個部分真的要謝謝教育部往下可是另外一個困境我們來看一下南投那到底有什麼方法可以解決現場第一線的困境呢以南投為例他們在原住民語的部分就詢問縣政府的承辦人員在客語的部分就問鄰近的學校所以然後再加上因為師資缺乏甚至沒有經過教室增試的也可以進來好沒關係假設他再次提升我們也可以接手好往下可是\n我想要問一下教育部有沒有機會聯同客委會、原民會還有地方政府各級學校代表把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成讓各地方的排課的老師、校長、主任他們在需要找人的時候他可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性甚至真的有心讓這些有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師他也知道他透過跑校跑班\n他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難其實現行就有那只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中我們來稍微看一下剛才有三格那三格裡面現行就有但是到底發生了什麼問題對所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講是會後可以到委員辦公室再就一些脈絡跟委員辦公室\n首先回到剛剛那三個,高中的部分如果排課的話他排直播共學他是要跟直播共學團隊有600多個老師到800個老師足以還有259個直接可以線上之外還可以實體教學的老師所以看起來人數也是有的,語種也是有的,然後媒合機制也是有的可是通常教育部的政策到的地方一定會產生一些問題那這個部分我們就一起來努力好不好\n所以如果人才已經資料庫有了我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論好那這個部分署長請回接下來要請文化部長謝謝文化部轄下有非常多相關的管所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動來看一下下一頁\n目前你們這些規劃是這樣文化部各館所提供多元國家語言服務文化部這些館所依照自己的屬性區特色結合新興媒體這個是文化部一直在做的事情好下一頁那我們這在相關的活動裡面看到有臺語錄的朋友他們給我們相關問卷說在活動現場說好了是國家語言活動的現場不是華語活動的現場臺語活動講故事臺語活動做戲劇臺語活動做說的演出結果大部分的人\n在講台上的人在做活動的人他甚至不會全台語他可能只有部分使用台語不管是老師的部分下一頁或者是助教的部分下一頁或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上一定有很多年輕人或者是甚至跟我年紀差不多的人也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語我想這個困境我們都認同而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境好下一頁那到底我們可以怎麼做我們就問了\n文化部你們在相關的活動補助裏面還有沒有其他的增能的政策協助這些第一線的人因為我們不能去質疑我們也不要去罵第一線人做錯了我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼下一頁結果你們給我們的回覆裏面我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動你們也補助了很多錢你們很多管所做了很有特色的事情我們都認同而且我們也肯定文化部的努力但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制\n甚至這些有心想要上場的講師或者是做戲劇的人他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好或是自己的客語不夠好自己的原名語不夠好那他們到底可以做什麼文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們\n我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候的確因為失智的來源或是我們的語言信任不夠我們在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們盡量用台語可是沒有比例上的一個要求\n所以在第二年我們下一個年度執行的時候現在會逐步的要求這個臺語一定要達到一定的比例可是要怎麼達到這個比例我已經提醒的所以我們會鼓勵我們的同仁或者是這一些應該來的師資課程他們可以去上語言課程\n沒關係,至少跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦不要常常很多立法院或行政院政策搞到第一線的人仁養馬翻我們來看一個案例這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展之後內容都出來之後一、館方會提供所有展覽文字當然是華文有專業的人士翻譯為台語文並且錄音讓工作人員學習有關的用字跟發音再安排研習課程讓導覽人員閱讀臺文版跟台語的表達\n的工作內容甚至會有專業的人士提供標準版讓現場導覽的人志工的人或者是講師有相關的對照參考也就是說case by Case如果我今天有這個展我就加強這些內容的學習透過一個一個的策展透過一個一個的活動累積我的母語使用能力我覺得這可能會讓現場的第一線工作人員感覺良好一點也就是我們不是逼他無止盡的上課不是逼他\n謝謝次長、謝謝部長、謝謝主席。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.083 --> 00:04.690\n請李部長、彭署長\n\n00:17.550 --> 00:46.410\n謝謝主席今天安排這個主題我們辦公室一直在追蹤關於國家語言還有國家語言發展中心來下一頁賴清德總統在世界母語日他談了三個非常重要的方向三個方向分別是成立國家語言發展中心第二個健全國家語言的教育資源第三個營造多元語言的友善環境但是我不知道部長或者是署長在你們相關的政策推動當中如何去呼應這三個重要的方向我們來看一下第一個來下一頁\n\n00:48.491 --> 01:14.451\n第一個是關於名稱的問題教育部目前我們之前辦公室跟教育部這邊溝通過一個非常非常重要的事情而且有很大的困難我們說你們在書面的語言上甚至在課綱或者是非課綱相關的業務裡面你們都沒有辦法把閩南語這三個字換成臺灣台語或者是臺灣閩南語或者是臺語的相關用法那當時是有很多教授陳情跟投稿到論壇上面\n\n01:15.692 --> 01:28.818\n可是我們在跟教育部溝通的過程當中發現很大的困難你們的說法是說李島地區的地方政府認為有相關的問題那我現在來放一段影片給部長看一下\n\n01:41.305 --> 01:48.627\n他剛才說有夠漂亮啦請問部長還有署長我剛才說的是什麼話?他說有夠漂亮我剛才在說什麼話?部長請先回答他講的應該是臺灣台語部長你剛剛在回答洪孟凱委員的時候你講台語你先用臺灣台語OK我可以接受署長有夠漂亮啦我在說什麼話?\n\n02:10.045 --> 02:35.761\n台語你看你也說台語嘛主席我可以冒昧問你一下我剛才在說什麼話台語但是在教育部的相關書面文件這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台因為你們的回覆當中下一頁你們的回覆說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年已經調查過了耶\n\n02:37.262 --> 02:46.990\n那文化部也有相關的建議甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂台灣台語這個用法我們來看在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說\n\n02:57.899 --> 03:19.716\n我們相關的口音相關的腔調都是同一個語系其實並沒有太大的差異所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整或者是在我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分沒有辦法快速調非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整你們明明在很多業務活動在很多學校第一線的現場明明很多活動可以現場就調整到底哪裡遇到了問題\n\n03:21.667 --> 03:26.148\n謝謝委員有關課綱的部分國教院課綱的部分我們不談我可以接受你們現在目前覺得課綱很難及時的調整我上一次的說法是說非課綱的活動業務第一線的所有公文往來還有你們在做所有活動的時候到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情\n\n03:42.353 --> 03:57.021\n當然我們希望可以證明回到課綱但是我覺得那個是短中程長期的工作規劃可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線的活動跟相關業務上為什麼沒有辦法剛剛部長也都說了我在講台語你也講我在講台語主席也講我在講台語大家都講在講台語為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整\n\n04:04.630 --> 04:23.460\n整體在教育的施教的過程中學生學習的過程中其中課綱他所導引出來的教科書相關的學習占滿大部分尤其是高中以下的教育因此在部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程\n\n04:24.540 --> 04:43.331\n除了在學生的學習,剛才您也講到例如相關的活動甚至一些非官剛才講的有關的那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些證明或是在統整那剛才委員就可以知道在教育界我們裡面那個課綱他目前在溝通過程中他會影響到整個教育內\n\n04:49.955 --> 04:49.975\n委員請說\n\n05:13.340 --> 05:36.076\n當時在國民政府所謂我們小時候課本學的所謂國民政府破千來台這八個字小時候大家都會背破千來台的時候因為作為統治者的工具他把台灣列為是一個單獨一個省然後日後要反攻大陸我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西然後所以台灣就被定為閩南語這件事情它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法\n\n05:36.736 --> 05:55.771\n在台灣主體性然後這麼多年強調之後但是你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上我們辦公室只是要再一次強調我們在這件事情上我們積極想要跟教育部溝通然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助不管是透過文化部的角色\n\n05:56.431 --> 06:26.051\n加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通或者是在相關業務的推動上到底有哪一些可以調整下一頁這個部分因為我時間有限是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論包含目前共識的部分我剛剛已經說了相關的研究85%而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了教育部如何堅定立場在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整再來修改閩南語的國家語言發展方向之建議書面用語這件事情我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作以上\n\n06:26.472 --> 06:30.544\n是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育文化委員會所有委員?好的\n\n06:31.311 --> 06:58.078\n好,那這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追喔,署長你知道我們已經追很久了好來,下一個,謝謝關於師資的部分那文化部長請回,謝謝李部長關於師資的部分剛剛洪孟凱委員也說了那我就直接講重點,我們來看下一頁在很多的網路社群上我們看到有老師老師是這樣告訴小孩的說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種喔不然後面會產生配客、台客\n\n07:15.353 --> 07:33.222\n甚至還有說所謂直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的甚至還有一個小學是語文自由班他們甚至告訴學生本土語言的時間你們不用來上課我們不會排課你們回家自學\n\n07:35.643 --> 07:48.418\n但是因為他是語言自由班的小孩每一個都可以通過相關考試署長你不要問我個別是什麼學校我要講的是在學校的現場不管是實質或者是老師的心態或者是排課的教務人員的心態有非常非常大的問題我們來往下看\n\n07:50.560 --> 08:16.529\n那我們知道你們師資真的很努力在提升這個部分真的要謝謝教育部往下可是另外一個困境我們來看一下南投那到底有什麼方法可以解決現場第一線的困境呢以南投為例他們在原住民語的部分就詢問縣政府的承辦人員在客語的部分就問鄰近的學校所以然後再加上因為師資缺乏甚至沒有經過教室增試的也可以進來好沒關係假設他再次提升我們也可以接手好往下可是\n\n08:17.389 --> 08:44.958\n我想要問一下教育部有沒有機會聯同客委會、原民會還有地方政府各級學校代表把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成讓各地方的排課的老師、校長、主任他們在需要找人的時候他可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性甚至真的有心讓這些有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師他也知道他透過跑校跑班\n\n08:46.178 --> 09:09.179\n他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難其實現行就有那只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中我們來稍微看一下剛才有三格那三格裡面現行就有但是到底發生了什麼問題對所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講是會後可以到委員辦公室再就一些脈絡跟委員辦公室\n\n09:09.960 --> 09:34.054\n首先回到剛剛那三個,高中的部分如果排課的話他排直播共學他是要跟直播共學團隊有600多個老師到800個老師足以還有259個直接可以線上之外還可以實體教學的老師所以看起來人數也是有的,語種也是有的,然後媒合機制也是有的可是通常教育部的政策到的地方一定會產生一些問題那這個部分我們就一起來努力好不好\n\n09:34.434 --> 09:49.142\n所以如果人才已經資料庫有了我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論好那這個部分署長請回接下來要請文化部長謝謝文化部轄下有非常多相關的管所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動來看一下下一頁\n\n09:50.563 --> 10:19.634\n目前你們這些規劃是這樣文化部各館所提供多元國家語言服務文化部這些館所依照自己的屬性區特色結合新興媒體這個是文化部一直在做的事情好下一頁那我們這在相關的活動裡面看到有臺語錄的朋友他們給我們相關問卷說在活動現場說好了是國家語言活動的現場不是華語活動的現場臺語活動講故事臺語活動做戲劇臺語活動做說的演出結果大部分的人\n\n10:20.134 --> 10:46.790\n在講台上的人在做活動的人他甚至不會全台語他可能只有部分使用台語不管是老師的部分下一頁或者是助教的部分下一頁或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上一定有很多年輕人或者是甚至跟我年紀差不多的人也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語我想這個困境我們都認同而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境好下一頁那到底我們可以怎麼做我們就問了\n\n10:48.491 --> 11:11.465\n文化部你們在相關的活動補助裏面還有沒有其他的增能的政策協助這些第一線的人因為我們不能去質疑我們也不要去罵第一線人做錯了我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼下一頁結果你們給我們的回覆裏面我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動你們也補助了很多錢你們很多管所做了很有特色的事情我們都認同而且我們也肯定文化部的努力但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制\n\n11:14.827 --> 11:27.316\n甚至這些有心想要上場的講師或者是做戲劇的人他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好或是自己的客語不夠好自己的原名語不夠好那他們到底可以做什麼文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們\n\n11:33.087 --> 11:47.866\n我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候的確因為失智的來源或是我們的語言信任不夠我們在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們盡量用台語可是沒有比例上的一個要求\n\n11:48.206 --> 12:04.366\n所以在第二年我們下一個年度執行的時候現在會逐步的要求這個臺語一定要達到一定的比例可是要怎麼達到這個比例我已經提醒的所以我們會鼓勵我們的同仁或者是這一些應該來的師資課程他們可以去上語言課程\n\n12:05.847 --> 12:23.802\n沒關係,至少跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦不要常常很多立法院或行政院政策搞到第一線的人仁養馬翻我們來看一個案例這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展之後內容都出來之後一、館方會提供所有展覽文字當然是華文有專業的人士翻譯為台語文並且錄音讓工作人員學習有關的用字跟發音再安排研習課程讓導覽人員閱讀臺文版跟台語的表達\n\n12:33.630 --> 12:39.711\n的工作內容甚至會有專業的人士提供標準版讓現場導覽的人志工的人或者是講師有相關的對照參考也就是說casebyCase如果我今天有這個展我就加強這些內容的學習透過一個一個的策展透過一個一個的活動累積我的母語使用能力我覺得這可能會讓現場的第一線工作人員感覺良好一點也就是我們不是逼他無止盡的上課不是逼他\n\n12:58.655 --> 12:58.855\n謝謝次長、謝謝部長、謝謝主席。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.083,"end":4.69,"text":"請李部長、彭署長"},{"start":17.55,"end":46.41,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排這個主題我們辦公室一直在追蹤關於國家語言還有國家語言發展中心來下一頁賴清德總統在世界母語日他談了三個非常重要的方向三個方向分別是成立國家語言發展中心第二個健全國家語言的教育資源第三個營造多元語言的友善環境但是我不知道部長或者是署長在你們相關的政策推動當中如何去呼應這三個重要的方向我們來看一下第一個來下一頁"},{"start":48.491,"end":74.451,"text":"第一個是關於名稱的問題教育部目前我們之前辦公室跟教育部這邊溝通過一個非常非常重要的事情而且有很大的困難我們說你們在書面的語言上甚至在課綱或者是非課綱相關的業務裡面你們都沒有辦法把閩南語這三個字換成臺灣台語或者是臺灣閩南語或者是臺語的相關用法那當時是有很多教授陳情跟投稿到論壇上面"},{"start":75.692,"end":88.818,"text":"可是我們在跟教育部溝通的過程當中發現很大的困難你們的說法是說李島地區的地方政府認為有相關的問題那我現在來放一段影片給部長看一下"},{"start":101.305,"end":108.627,"text":"他剛才說有夠漂亮啦請問部長還有署長我剛才說的是什麼話?他說有夠漂亮我剛才在說什麼話?部長請先回答他講的應該是臺灣台語部長你剛剛在回答洪孟凱委員的時候你講台語你先用臺灣台語OK我可以接受署長有夠漂亮啦我在說什麼話?"},{"start":130.045,"end":155.761,"text":"台語你看你也說台語嘛主席我可以冒昧問你一下我剛才在說什麼話台語但是在教育部的相關書面文件這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台因為你們的回覆當中下一頁你們的回覆說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年已經調查過了耶"},{"start":157.262,"end":166.99,"text":"那文化部也有相關的建議甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂台灣台語這個用法我們來看在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說"},{"start":177.899,"end":199.716,"text":"我們相關的口音相關的腔調都是同一個語系其實並沒有太大的差異所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整或者是在我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分沒有辦法快速調 非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整你們明明在很多業務活動在很多學校第一線的現場明明很多活動可以現場就調整到底哪裡遇到了問題"},{"start":201.667,"end":206.148,"text":"謝謝委員有關課綱的部分國教院課綱的部分我們不談我可以接受你們現在目前覺得課綱很難及時的調整我上一次的說法是說非課綱的活動業務第一線的所有公文往來還有你們在做所有活動的時候到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情"},{"start":222.353,"end":237.021,"text":"當然我們希望可以證明回到課綱但是我覺得那個是短中程長期的工作規劃可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線的活動跟相關業務上為什麼沒有辦法剛剛部長也都說了我在講台語你也講我在講台語主席也講我在講台語大家都講在講台語為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整"},{"start":244.63,"end":263.46,"text":"整體在教育的施教的過程中學生學習的過程中其中課綱他所導引出來的教科書相關的學習占滿大部分尤其是高中以下的教育因此在部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程"},{"start":264.54,"end":283.331,"text":"除了在學生的學習,剛才您也講到例如相關的活動甚至一些非官剛才講的有關的那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些證明或是在統整那剛才委員就可以知道在教育界我們裡面那個課綱他目前在溝通過程中他會影響到整個教育內"},{"start":289.955,"end":289.975,"text":"委員請說"},{"start":313.34,"end":336.076,"text":"當時在國民政府所謂我們小時候課本學的所謂國民政府破千來台這八個字小時候大家都會背破千來台的時候因為作為統治者的工具他把台灣列為是一個單獨一個省然後日後要反攻大陸我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西然後所以台灣就被定為閩南語這件事情它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法"},{"start":336.736,"end":355.771,"text":"在台灣主體性然後這麼多年強調之後但是你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上我們辦公室只是要再一次強調我們在這件事情上我們積極想要跟教育部溝通然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助不管是透過文化部的角色"},{"start":356.431,"end":386.051,"text":"加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通或者是在相關業務的推動上到底有哪一些可以調整下一頁這個部分因為我時間有限是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論包含目前共識的部分我剛剛已經說了相關的研究85%而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了教育部如何堅定立場在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整再來修改閩南語的國家語言發展方向之建議書面用語這件事情我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作以上"},{"start":386.472,"end":390.544,"text":"是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育文化委員會所有委員?好的"},{"start":391.311,"end":418.078,"text":"好,那這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追喔,署長你知道我們已經追很久了好來,下一個,謝謝關於師資的部分那文化部長請回,謝謝李部長關於師資的部分剛剛洪孟凱委員也說了那我就直接講重點,我們來看下一頁在很多的網路社群上我們看到有老師老師是這樣告訴小孩的說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種喔不然後面會產生配客、台客"},{"start":418.558,"end":435.213,"text":"總檢討"},{"start":435.353,"end":453.222,"text":"甚至還有說所謂直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的甚至還有一個小學是語文自由班他們甚至告訴學生本土語言的時間你們不用來上課我們不會排課你們回家自學"},{"start":455.643,"end":468.418,"text":"但是因為他是語言自由班的小孩每一個都可以通過相關考試署長你不要問我個別是什麼學校我要講的是在學校的現場不管是實質或者是老師的心態或者是排課的教務人員的心態有非常非常大的問題我們來往下看"},{"start":470.56,"end":496.529,"text":"那我們知道你們師資真的很努力在提升這個部分真的要謝謝教育部往下可是另外一個困境我們來看一下南投那到底有什麼方法可以解決現場第一線的困境呢以南投為例他們在原住民語的部分就詢問縣政府的承辦人員在客語的部分就問鄰近的學校所以然後再加上因為師資缺乏甚至沒有經過教室增試的也可以進來好沒關係假設他再次提升我們也可以接手好往下可是"},{"start":497.389,"end":524.958,"text":"我想要問一下教育部有沒有機會聯同客委會、原民會還有地方政府各級學校代表把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成讓各地方的排課的老師、校長、主任他們在需要找人的時候他可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性甚至真的有心讓這些有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師他也知道他透過跑校跑班"},{"start":526.178,"end":549.179,"text":"他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難其實現行就有那只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中我們來稍微看一下剛才有三格那三格裡面現行就有但是到底發生了什麼問題對所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講是會後可以到委員辦公室再就一些脈絡跟委員辦公室"},{"start":549.96,"end":574.054,"text":"首先回到剛剛那三個,高中的部分如果排課的話他排直播共學他是要跟直播共學團隊有600多個老師到800個老師足以還有259個直接可以線上之外還可以實體教學的老師所以看起來人數也是有的,語種也是有的,然後媒合機制也是有的可是通常教育部的政策到的地方一定會產生一些問題那這個部分我們就一起來努力好不好"},{"start":574.434,"end":589.142,"text":"所以如果人才已經資料庫有了我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論好那這個部分署長請回接下來要請文化部長謝謝文化部轄下有非常多相關的管所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動來看一下下一頁"},{"start":590.563,"end":619.634,"text":"目前你們這些規劃是這樣文化部各館所提供多元國家語言服務文化部這些館所依照自己的屬性區特色結合新興媒體這個是文化部一直在做的事情好下一頁那我們這在相關的活動裡面看到有臺語錄的朋友他們給我們相關問卷說在活動現場說好了是國家語言活動的現場不是華語活動的現場臺語活動講故事臺語活動做戲劇臺語活動做說的演出結果大部分的人"},{"start":620.134,"end":646.79,"text":"在講台上的人在做活動的人他甚至不會全台語他可能只有部分使用台語不管是老師的部分下一頁或者是助教的部分下一頁或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上一定有很多年輕人或者是甚至跟我年紀差不多的人也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語我想這個困境我們都認同而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境好下一頁那到底我們可以怎麼做我們就問了"},{"start":648.491,"end":671.465,"text":"文化部你們在相關的活動補助裏面還有沒有其他的增能的政策協助這些第一線的人因為我們不能去質疑我們也不要去罵第一線人做錯了我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼下一頁結果你們給我們的回覆裏面我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動你們也補助了很多錢你們很多管所做了很有特色的事情我們都認同而且我們也肯定文化部的努力但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制"},{"start":674.827,"end":687.316,"text":"甚至這些有心想要上場的講師或者是做戲劇的人他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好或是自己的客語不夠好自己的原名語不夠好那他們到底可以做什麼文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們"},{"start":693.087,"end":707.866,"text":"我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候的確因為失智的來源或是我們的語言信任不夠我們在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們盡量用台語可是沒有比例上的一個要求"},{"start":708.206,"end":724.366,"text":"所以在第二年我們下一個年度執行的時候現在會逐步的要求這個臺語一定要達到一定的比例可是要怎麼達到這個比例我已經提醒的所以我們會鼓勵我們的同仁或者是這一些應該來的師資課程他們可以去上語言課程"},{"start":725.847,"end":743.802,"text":"沒關係,至少跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦不要常常很多立法院或行政院政策搞到第一線的人仁養馬翻我們來看一個案例這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展之後內容都出來之後一、館方會提供所有展覽文字當然是華文有專業的人士翻譯為台語文並且錄音讓工作人員學習有關的用字跟發音再安排研習課程讓導覽人員閱讀臺文版跟台語的表達"},{"start":753.63,"end":759.711,"text":"的工作內容甚至會有專業的人士提供標準版讓現場導覽的人志工的人或者是講師有相關的對照參考也就是說case by Case如果我今天有這個展我就加強這些內容的學習透過一個一個的策展透過一個一個的活動累積我的母語使用能力我覺得這可能會讓現場的第一線工作人員感覺良好一點也就是我們不是逼他無止盡的上課不是逼他"},{"start":778.655,"end":778.855,"text":"謝謝次長、謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"}]}}}}