{"id":153674,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b705faa3d0958eccd6a1f14e6772be7c3d3daa592b5b2cb0e7348e3b34fc23a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:33:14 - 09:47:49","影片長度":"00:14:35","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:33:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:47:49+08:00","duration":875,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":286,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時33分）謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：司法院今天是……"],["主席：李廳長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，今天有幾個問題來就教，最有名的一個大法官會議解釋，我相信法律人都耳熟能詳的就是釋字第631號，第631號整個解釋裡面，你把整個文件看完以後會看到，如果把人民的權利跟刑事訴追的關係列一個位階的話，這兩個來做比較，部長會把什麼列為是第一個位階？這問你就有趣了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：大法官釋字第631號解釋主要是對秘密通訊自由的涵攝範圍做一個釐清。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，所以我就問了，如果你把人民的權利跟刑事訴追的關係來排列位階的話，第一個位階當然一定是憲法保障的基本人權，第二個才會是刑事訴追的立意。從幾號的大法官會議解釋都可以看到，變成隱私權跟秘密通訊這樣的自由其實就是一個普世價值，我相信應該各位都可以來認同，但要怎麼樣去限制它？第一個，你必須要合理或正當，整個通訊的監察，從過去1999年通保法裡面，檢察官去得到授權進行通訊監察，到現在授權偵查機關也必須要由檢察官向法院來聲請令狀，其實這個都在表明國人跟執行機關對於通訊自由的重視。我今天為什麼特別會提出來？就是延續著昨天對法務部跟司法院的詢問，有幾個概念裡面，其實我倒覺得我們今天在審查這樣一個條文，大法官釋字第631號還是一個很重要的基石，今天涉及到整個監察的情況，比如說事中的監察、事後的監察，這個都很重要，我看在解釋文裡面也講得非常清楚，這個涉及到比一般的強制處分還要更嚴重，就是我們今天的這些條文。","我昨天提出一個最可怕的，就是一般法院或司法機關在做強制處分的時候，人民還可以限時的知道，還可以行使一些防禦權，而這種屬於通信跟監察的範圍裡面，來無影去無蹤，神不知鬼不覺，所以過去我們歷次的修法裡面才會有這麼多的爭議，到了馬王政爭以後，整部法令又去翻修，到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的，你就一直監聽、監聽下去，到最後變成一人一狀，若要監聽特定人的，你就必須經過法院的核可。","我這次要再提出來的是，這個法令訂下去以後，我們最擔心的是，你在當事人，甚至於第三人毫不知情之下，會導致整個訴訟上的防禦沒有辦法去行使，連聲明不服的機會都沒有，這個在第631號解釋裡面都講得非常清楚。","我就來講這一次的重點，你把網路流量紀錄這個態樣加入變成可蒐集的證據部分以後，本法在第十五條又沒有跟著增訂整個告知的義務，我請教法務部長，對於沒有把網路流量紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼？我特別來請教。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個通知當然是為了救濟，但是是不是要給予通知救濟？我想這個是應該由司法院來……他們就會有通盤的考量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們從整個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑事訴訟法第四百十六條來提救濟，既然有必須要救濟的部分，這部分……"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，那我請教司法院李廳長，我是覺得你們這樣的解釋都不夠充分，其實我是把問題丟出來給你們，你們應該充分的跟社會來對話。你從憲法第二十二條就可以去引申出來，整個資訊的自主權，這個其實在釋字第603號和第689號解釋裡面都有去提到，明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的自主權，這個都屬於憲法保障上的權利。","因為昨天廳長也在，你們談到這個部分，你們都是在說我行政上的內控，你們一直在強調內控，可是你說個人的資料自主如果受到我剛剛提到大法官這樣的肯認的話，那你應該獲得相當的重視，所以我一直在強調這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題，但你們在第十五條裡面沒有跟著去做增訂，廳長，剛剛部長那個講法，你可以做補充嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：如果依照委員的說法，我是滿認同委員的說法，對人民的權益有任何侵害時，應該要給他救濟的機會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法務部這次提出這個修法，我知道你們都立意良善，其實我在這個地方都是在提出提醒，你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權，你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微，這個部分其實我是不認同的，這個是一個基本權利保障的問題，你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候，對於姓名、身分證字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握，這些資料不是所謂的影響輕微，不然至少你們用字這個部分也不要這樣講，這個就不對喔！這次修法裡面，你看你的重點是修正第三條之一，訂了這個名詞「網路流量」，所以網路流量是不是涵攝在第三條所稱的「通訊」？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為我們認為只有使用者的資料，這是基本資料，是非常輕微的，其他對隱私權的干預，我們認為是要法官保留，所以我們認為是要經過許可的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對於這樣的講法，我是覺得這樣的講法都不夠清楚，我為什麼會這樣問呢？就是說如果算在通訊裡面，那你執行通訊監察的時候，等於是賦予調查機關未來可以調取網路流量的紀錄，那等同什麼呢？等同你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有人的網路流量紀錄，不是這樣嗎？法律效果就會變這樣啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其實我們這次修的第三條之一的網路流量，這個不是通訊的內容。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個不算通訊內容？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不算，這個不是，這只是一個數位的軌跡而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那個就是一個通訊內容。廳長，我來請教你的看法，這個我就跟部長的意見完全不一樣了。"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分，如果依照法務部提出來的相關定義，的確是不一樣，他把使用者的資訊跟通訊的紀錄，包括網路流量，是做了不同的定義。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那你要把它定成什麼？那它就不是受憲法保障的權利了？"],["李廳長釱任：它還是受憲法保障的權利。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是憲法哪一個部分的保障權利？"],["李廳長釱任：那還是個人資料的一部分，不過我跟委員報告，在目前相關的開戶資料，偵查機關經常會調取金融機構帳戶的開戶資料，對於偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的。至於後面相關所謂當事人覺得受侵害，怎麼去表示不服或是有一個救濟程序的話，也許透過第四百十六條相關的準抗告程序的擴張解釋，應該是可以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：扯遠了，有點扯遠了。我的意思是，如果這個法條你把它訂下去的話，會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量紀錄？會不會？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分可能是不是請……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個這麼簡單的問題，你們不能再推來推去。"],["李廳長釱任：當然是會增加……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說嘛！到最後變成強制整個電信業者必須要把網路流量的紀錄做保存，這個很可怕，我是覺得這個很可怕，要再跟社會講清楚，整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督機制，都沒有在法律層次裡面去做訂定。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其實在第三條之一就有列舉6項的流量紀錄，這個很清楚，只有列舉的這6項流量紀錄才需要保存……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以就變成強制啦！現在在業者現行保存規範裡面，你們也沒去做說明啊！你看這條對於網路流量紀錄的定義，從網域的名稱到協定的資料裡面，就變成我就可以知道使用者進去哪一個網頁、用了什麼app，其實就是瀏覽紀錄的一部分了嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個裡面的內容，譬如說我們不能直接到人家的網址去看人家的內容，我們現在調的網路流量紀錄僅限譬如說我們只用一個網域，就是說我去查臺北市大安區……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我當然知道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：至於網址裡面的門牌號碼第幾號，那個我們是沒辦法，那是另外一個通訊要去處理的問題，不是調取……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是說你這樣整個……對於這些電信業者，就等於你強制它必須要去做一個留存了啦！這很可怕，你知不知道？我就跟你說，譬如像內政部，我們政府機關常常有一些個人隱私的資料會外洩，你這個下去之後，就變成會壯大蒐集整個個資數量跟類型，到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料分析。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，像目前的通訊紀錄，本來這些電信業者就有在保留了，因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化，用傳統門號的那種詐騙方式已經變成不是那麼重要，現在整個網路的詐騙變多了，所以我們才有這一條，其實就等於像我們門號的通聯紀錄而已，而且我們限縮在列舉那6種的網路流量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！你去看我們整個通保法，為什麼到最後要採令狀，那採令狀也不是什麼罪，你都可以去監聽，針對重大類型的犯罪耶！這個我再一次來講，連這個部分法官保留，我都覺得會養出另外一頭巨獸。召委，不好意思，我後面剩幾句話。我再次提出叮嚀一下，昨天講很多東西，我相信不同政黨的委員也都有去提到，你們動不動就講說內控會用行政監督，我現在講的是你這些資料的保存、業者的監督、業者保存的範圍，你根本就看不到內控，你行政監督怎麼去管理啦？我擔心的是這個。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個草案有規定一定要訂子法，在第十四條之一，這是一個子法的，在第六項要訂子法。另外，委員關心這些的問題，在第十四條之一都有做相關的規定，我想這部分可以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：細部的我會再跟你就教啦！我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念，你強制業者了以後，它保存了以後，假設我是駭客，我又把你給侵入了，你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪，到最後等於就把龐大國人的網路流量紀錄交給別人來做掌管，如果遭到外洩的後果又非常的嚴重。網路流量其實也會去紀錄到當中的IP啊！如果遭到外洩、取得位置，發動一些網路詐騙的話，甚至駭入整個電腦的話，一個問題又產生一個問題出來。"],["鄭部長銘謙：資安的這個問題，我們在子法以及內控機制會做要求，保存的方式、避免被駭客入侵這部分在子法我們會做嚴格的要求。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我從昨天到現在的用語都是說再考慮一下，看是不是可以把整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分再去做考量，我再一次再提出來，總是要提醒啦！雖然是執政黨的，但是我看了以後，我把我的疑慮、憂慮再提出來，跟你們做個提醒，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝部長、廳長。","接下來有請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speake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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 554.156, \"end\": 554.176, \"score\": 0.985}]}, {\"start\": 555.157, \"end\": 576.348, \"text\": \"這相關的所謂的當事人覺得受侵害怎麼去表示不服或是有一個救濟程序的話也許透過416條的相關的一個準抗告程序的擴張解釋應該是可以扯遠了有點扯遠了我的意思是說如果這個法條你把它定下去的話你會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量的一個紀錄\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 555.157, \"end\": 555.477, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 555.477, \"end\": 555.597, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 555.597, \"end\": 555.737, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 555.737, \"end\": 556.438, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 556.438, \"end\": 556.718, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 556.718, \"end\": 557.558, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 557.558, \"end\": 557.698, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 557.698, \"end\": 557.898, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"侵\", \"start\": 557.898, 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{\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 764.921, \"end\": 765.061, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 765.061, \"end\": 765.181, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 765.181, \"end\": 765.421, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 765.421, \"end\": 766.041, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 766.041, \"end\": 766.382, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 766.382, \"end\": 766.502, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 766.502, \"end\": 766.782, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 766.782, \"end\": 766.902, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 766.902, \"end\": 767.002, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 767.002, \"end\": 767.142, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 767.142, \"end\": 767.322, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 767.322, \"end\": 767.503, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 767.503, \"end\": 768.423, \"score\": 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871.932, \"score\": 0.636}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 871.932, \"end\": 871.953, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 871.953, \"end\": 871.973, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,413 --> 00:00:16,555\n謝謝主席,有請我們法務部政部長有請政部長司法院今天是李廳長委員早部長我想今天幾個問題來救教這個我相信在法律人最有名的一個\n\n2\n00:00:33,243 --> 00:00:39,507\n對於大法官會議的一個解釋大家都耳熟能詳的就是釋字第631號631號我看他在整個解釋裡面\n\n3\n00:00:47,711 --> 00:01:05,389\n他有特別去你把他整個文件把他給看完以後你會看到就是說你如果說把人民的權利跟刑事訴訟就是刑事訴追的關係來列一個位階的話我不曉得部長你把什麼列為是第一個位階這兩個來做比較這問你就有趣了\n\n4\n00:01:14,676 --> 00:01:27,653\n這個大法官4-631號解釋是主要是闡述那個那個保障那個只要是對秘密通訊自由的一些含色的範圍做一個做一個釐清\n\n5\n00:01:28,914 --> 00:01:56,904\n對所以嘛我就我就問了就是說如果你把人民的權利跟刑事訴追的關係來排列位階的話第一個位階當然就一定是憲法保障的基本人權嘛第二個才會是我們的這個刑事訴追的一個利益啊這個從幾號幾號的一個大法官會議的一個解釋啊我們都可以看到了就是變成說隱私權跟秘密通訊這樣的一個自由啊這個其實就是一個普世的一個價值啦\n\n6\n00:01:57,814 --> 00:02:22,866\n這我相信應該各位都可以來認同要怎麼樣去限制它第一個你必須要去合理或者正當我們整個通訊的一個監察我們看從過去從1999年通保法裡面檢察官去得到授權進行通訊監察到現在授權偵查機關你也必須要檢察官向法院來申請這樣的一個令狀\n\n7\n00:02:23,866 --> 00:02:48,565\n其實這個都在表明國人跟執行機關對於通訊自由的一個重視那我今天為什麼特別會提出來就是延續著昨天的一個對法務部跟司法院這邊的一個詢問有幾個概念裡面其實我倒會覺得說我們今天在審查這樣的一個條文大法官事事631號其實還是很重要的一個基石很重要的一個基石\n\n8\n00:02:49,326 --> 00:03:05,374\n那今天呢涉及到整個監察的情況你像譬如說事中的監察事後的監察這個都很重要我看在解釋文裡面他也講得非常清楚了這個涉及到這比一般的強制處分還要更嚴重我們今天得這些條文那\n\n9\n00:03:07,179 --> 00:03:23,280\n我昨天提出一個最可怕的就是說你去做一般法院在或者司法機關在做強制處分的時候人民還可以現實的可以知道還可以行使一些防疫權那這種通訊跟屬於通訊跟監察的範圍裡面\n\n10\n00:03:25,102 --> 00:03:29,524\n來無影去無蹤神不知鬼不覺所以過去我們歷次的一個修法裡面會有這麼多的爭議那你到了馬王政爭以後\n\n11\n00:03:41,365 --> 00:03:55,961\n整部法律院又去翻修到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的你就一直監聽監聽下去嘛到最後變成說一人一狀一人一個你要監聽特定人的你就必須要經過法院的一個核可\n\n12\n00:03:56,582 --> 00:04:25,698\n那我這一次要再提出來了就是說我們這個法令定下去以後我們最擔心的就是說你在當事人甚至於第三人毫不知情之下會導致整個訴訟上的一個防禦沒有辦法去行使連聲明不符的機會都沒有啦這個是在631解釋裡面都要講得非常清楚啦那這一次的重點我就要來講啦就是說網路流量記錄這個太陽你把它加入這個變成可收集的一個證據的部分以後啊\n\n13\n00:04:26,246 --> 00:04:46,162\n那我們本法在第15條又沒有去跟著修訂整個增訂整個告知的一個義務啦那我請教法務部長就是說對於沒有把網路流量這個紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼我特別來做請教\n\n14\n00:04:48,520 --> 00:05:04,603\n這個通知當然是為了一個救濟但是是不是說要給予通知救濟那我想這個是應該有司法院來就會有通盤的一個考量這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量\n\n15\n00:05:05,784 --> 00:05:23,042\n這個是一個有爭議我們從整個這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑訴書416條來提救濟嘛那既然是有必須要救濟的這部分這部分我們是法務部好那我請教司法院那個女廳長\n\n16\n00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:37,908\n我是覺得你們這樣的一個解釋這個都不夠充分的其實我是把問題丟出來給你們你們應該充分的跟社會來做一個對話你從憲法第22條你就可以去引申出來\n\n17\n00:05:38,837 --> 00:06:04,597\n整個資訊的一個自主權這個在其實在釋之603號跟689號裡面解釋裡面都有去提到啦這明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的一個自主權這個都屬於憲法保障上的一個權利因為昨天啊聽長你也在你們談到這個部分你們都是在講說我行政上的內控你們一直在談在這個內控可是呢\n\n18\n00:06:06,977 --> 00:06:26,537\n你說個人的資料自主如果受到大法官這樣我剛提到這樣的肯認的話那你應該獲得相當的一個重視所以我一直在強調說這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題嘛那你們在事務條裡面沒有跟著去做一個徵定聽著你剛部長那個講法你可以做補充嗎\n\n19\n00:06:29,502 --> 00:06:37,977\n如果依照委員的說法我是蠻認同委員的說法應該對人民的權益任何的侵害或是這個應該要給他有救濟的機會\n\n20\n00:06:40,307 --> 00:07:08,693\n法務部這次提出這個修法我知道你們都利益良善但是我在這個地方其實都是在提出提醒你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微這個部分其實我是不認同的這個是一個基本權利的一個保障的一個問題你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候你說姓名、身分證、字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握\n\n21\n00:07:09,353 --> 00:07:28,142\n那這一些資料不是所謂的影響輕微啦我是覺得至少不然你們用字這個部分也不要這樣說你知道嗎也不要這樣說這個就不對喔那這一次修法裡面你看你重點是修正了三條字一定的這個名詞網路流量所以網路流量是不是含設在第三條所稱的一個通訊\n\n22\n00:07:30,772 --> 00:07:44,259\n跟委員報告齁因為我們認為那個只有使用者的資料這基本資料這是非常輕微那其他我們不認為就是說對隱私錢的一個干預我們認為是要法官保留所以我們認為是要經過許可的\n\n23\n00:07:47,546 --> 00:08:10,472\n我對這樣的講法我是覺得這樣都講法都不夠清楚了我為什麼會這樣問就是說如果算在通訊裡面那你執行通訊監察的時候等於是以賦予調查機關未來可以調查網路流量的一個記錄那等同是什麼呢你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有網路流量的記錄了不是這樣子嗎\n\n24\n00:08:11,893 --> 00:08:33,822\n法律效果就會變這樣啊。根委員報告其實我們這次修的那個三之一的那個網路流量這個不是通訊。這個不是通訊的一個內容。這個不算通訊內容。這個不算。這只是一個數位的一個軌跡。那個就是一個通訊內容。來來來聽長我來請教你的看法。這個我就跟部長的意見就完全不一樣了。\n\n25\n00:08:35,677 --> 00:08:36,438\n那你要把它定成什麼?\n\n26\n00:08:36,438 --> 00:08:38,641\n那他就不是受憲法保障的權利喔?\n\n27\n00:08:53,960 --> 00:09:14,176\n他還是受憲法保障的權利來來來那憲法哪一個部分的保障的權利那一個是個人資料的一部分那不過跟委員報告一下在目前的相關的開戶資料我想在我們在偵查機關經常會調取什麼金融機構的帳戶的開戶資料那對偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的那所以說後面的\n\n28\n00:09:15,157 --> 00:09:36,348\n這相關的所謂的當事人覺得受侵害怎麼去表示不服或是有一個救濟程序的話也許透過416條的相關的一個準抗告程序的擴張解釋應該是可以扯遠了有點扯遠了我的意思是說如果這個法條你把它定下去的話你會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量的一個紀錄\n\n29\n00:09:38,868 --> 00:09:41,509\n所以說嘛所以說嘛到最後變成強制你整個電信業者必須要把這個網路的流量的記錄把它做一個保存啊\n\n30\n00:09:55,413 --> 00:10:20,372\n這個很可怕我是覺得這個很可怕要再跟社會講清楚了整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督的一個機制都沒有在法律層次裡面去做訂定跟委員報告其實在三條之一就是這些網路的流量紀錄是有列取六項的流量紀錄這個很清楚只有這六項的流量紀錄列取的才需要保存所以就變成強制啦\n\n31\n00:10:22,333 --> 00:10:26,655\n那你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面你們也沒去做說明啊你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義從網域裡面一個名稱到協定的資料裡面你就變成說我就可以知道說使用者進去哪一個網頁用了什麼APP那其實就是瀏覽記錄的一部分了嘛\n\n32\n00:10:39,582 --> 00:10:40,323\n我意思是說你要整包齁\n\n33\n00:11:07,282 --> 00:11:23,308\n告別電信業者立法院一定要強制他必須要去做一個留存了啦這很可怕你知道嗎我就跟你說你像比如說我們內政部我們政府機關常常有一些資料個人隱私的資料會外洩啊你這一個落後\n\n34\n00:11:26,246 --> 00:11:41,290\n你就變成我們整個這個會壯大收集整個各自數量跟那個類型跟數量你這個到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料的一個分析像目前的目前的通信記錄本來這些電信業者本就在保留了\n\n35\n00:11:42,745 --> 00:12:07,370\n那現在我們是增加因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化的現在用我們現在傳統那個門號的那種的詐騙方式他現在已經已經變成是不是居住那麼重要現在整個網路的一個詐騙變多了所以我們才有這一條其實這就是等於一個通聯的一個就像我們那個門號的一個通聯記錄而已而且我們限縮在列列舉的六種的一個一個網路的\n\n36\n00:12:08,910 --> 00:12:34,299\n一個流量的就限定他6個是嘛你去看我們整個通保法嘛為什麼到最後要採令狀那在採令狀你也不是什麼罪你都可以去監聽捏這針對重大類型的一個犯罪捏這齁我再一次來講啦齁再一次來講啦這個齁連這個部分法官保留齁我都覺得這會養出另外一頭巨獸\n\n37\n00:12:39,516 --> 00:12:51,065\n這個我再次提出叮嚀一下就是說昨天講很多東西我相信不同的政黨的委員也都有去提到你們動不動就講說內空會用行政監督\n\n38\n00:12:52,096 --> 00:13:16,955\n那我現在講的是說你這些資料的保存業者的監督業者保存的範圍你這根本就看不到內控你行政監督你怎麼去管理啦我擔心的是這個法律有明我規定這個草案有規定就是一定要定執法那個是在14條之一這是一個執法的在第6第6項第6項要定執法\n\n39\n00:13:17,796 --> 00:13:34,707\n那另外委員有關心的這些的問題這個在第14條之一都有做相關的一個規定我想這部分可以細部的我會再跟你就教啦我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念你強制的業者了以後那他本來保存了以後那保存了以後假設我是駭客啦\n\n40\n00:13:35,808 --> 00:13:54,999\n我又把你給侵入了啦你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪啦你就本一到最後把龐大國人的網路流量記錄交給別人來做一個掌管喔那個如果遭到外洩的這個後果又非常的嚴重你網路流量其實也會去記錄到當中的一個IP啊如果遭到外洩取得位置發動一些網路的一個詐騙的話甚至害入整個電腦的話說說一個問題還刪除一個問題出來勒\n\n41\n00:14:01,397 --> 00:14:04,721\n我從昨天到現在的用語都是講說再考慮一下看是不是可以把這個整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分\n\n42\n00:14:21,101 --> 00:14:31,973\n再去做一個考量啦我要再一次再提出來總是要提醒啦雖然是執政黨的但是我看來以後我把我的疑慮憂慮再提出來讓你們做一個提醒好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9413\t16555\t謝謝主席,有請我們法務部政部長有請政部長司法院今天是李廳長委員早部長我想今天幾個問題來救教這個我相信在法律人最有名的一個\n33243\t39507\t對於大法官會議的一個解釋大家都耳熟能詳的就是釋字第631號631號我看他在整個解釋裡面\n47711\t65389\t他有特別去你把他整個文件把他給看完以後你會看到就是說你如果說把人民的權利跟刑事訴訟就是刑事訴追的關係來列一個位階的話我不曉得部長你把什麼列為是第一個位階這兩個來做比較這問你就有趣了\n74676\t87653\t這個大法官4-631號解釋是主要是闡述那個那個保障那個只要是對秘密通訊自由的一些含色的範圍做一個做一個釐清\n88914\t116904\t對所以嘛我就我就問了就是說如果你把人民的權利跟刑事訴追的關係來排列位階的話第一個位階當然就一定是憲法保障的基本人權嘛第二個才會是我們的這個刑事訴追的一個利益啊這個從幾號幾號的一個大法官會議的一個解釋啊我們都可以看到了就是變成說隱私權跟秘密通訊這樣的一個自由啊這個其實就是一個普世的一個價值啦\n117814\t142866\t這我相信應該各位都可以來認同要怎麼樣去限制它第一個你必須要去合理或者正當我們整個通訊的一個監察我們看從過去從1999年通保法裡面檢察官去得到授權進行通訊監察到現在授權偵查機關你也必須要檢察官向法院來申請這樣的一個令狀\n143866\t168565\t其實這個都在表明國人跟執行機關對於通訊自由的一個重視那我今天為什麼特別會提出來就是延續著昨天的一個對法務部跟司法院這邊的一個詢問有幾個概念裡面其實我倒會覺得說我們今天在審查這樣的一個條文大法官事事631號其實還是很重要的一個基石很重要的一個基石\n169326\t185374\t那今天呢涉及到整個監察的情況你像譬如說事中的監察事後的監察這個都很重要我看在解釋文裡面他也講得非常清楚了這個涉及到這比一般的強制處分還要更嚴重我們今天得這些條文那\n187179\t203280\t我昨天提出一個最可怕的就是說你去做一般法院在或者司法機關在做強制處分的時候人民還可以現實的可以知道還可以行使一些防疫權那這種通訊跟屬於通訊跟監察的範圍裡面\n205102\t209524\t來無影去無蹤神不知鬼不覺所以過去我們歷次的一個修法裡面會有這麼多的爭議那你到了馬王政爭以後\n221365\t235961\t整部法律院又去翻修到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的你就一直監聽監聽下去嘛到最後變成說一人一狀一人一個你要監聽特定人的你就必須要經過法院的一個核可\n236582\t265698\t那我這一次要再提出來了就是說我們這個法令定下去以後我們最擔心的就是說你在當事人甚至於第三人毫不知情之下會導致整個訴訟上的一個防禦沒有辦法去行使連聲明不符的機會都沒有啦這個是在631解釋裡面都要講得非常清楚啦那這一次的重點我就要來講啦就是說網路流量記錄這個太陽你把它加入這個變成可收集的一個證據的部分以後啊\n266246\t286162\t那我們本法在第15條又沒有去跟著修訂整個增訂整個告知的一個義務啦那我請教法務部長就是說對於沒有把網路流量這個紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼我特別來做請教\n288520\t304603\t這個通知當然是為了一個救濟但是是不是說要給予通知救濟那我想這個是應該有司法院來就會有通盤的一個考量這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量\n305784\t323042\t這個是一個有爭議我們從整個這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑訴書416條來提救濟嘛那既然是有必須要救濟的這部分這部分我們是法務部好那我請教司法院那個女廳長\n325236\t337908\t我是覺得你們這樣的一個解釋這個都不夠充分的其實我是把問題丟出來給你們你們應該充分的跟社會來做一個對話你從憲法第22條你就可以去引申出來\n338837\t364597\t整個資訊的一個自主權這個在其實在釋之603號跟689號裡面解釋裡面都有去提到啦這明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的一個自主權這個都屬於憲法保障上的一個權利因為昨天啊聽長你也在你們談到這個部分你們都是在講說我行政上的內控你們一直在談在這個內控可是呢\n366977\t386537\t你說個人的資料自主如果受到大法官這樣我剛提到這樣的肯認的話那你應該獲得相當的一個重視所以我一直在強調說這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題嘛那你們在事務條裡面沒有跟著去做一個徵定聽著你剛部長那個講法你可以做補充嗎\n389502\t397977\t如果依照委員的說法我是蠻認同委員的說法應該對人民的權益任何的侵害或是這個應該要給他有救濟的機會\n400307\t428693\t法務部這次提出這個修法我知道你們都利益良善但是我在這個地方其實都是在提出提醒你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微這個部分其實我是不認同的這個是一個基本權利的一個保障的一個問題你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候你說姓名、身分證、字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握\n429353\t448142\t那這一些資料不是所謂的影響輕微啦我是覺得至少不然你們用字這個部分也不要這樣說你知道嗎也不要這樣說這個就不對喔那這一次修法裡面你看你重點是修正了三條字一定的這個名詞網路流量所以網路流量是不是含設在第三條所稱的一個通訊\n450772\t464259\t跟委員報告齁因為我們認為那個只有使用者的資料這基本資料這是非常輕微那其他我們不認為就是說對隱私錢的一個干預我們認為是要法官保留所以我們認為是要經過許可的\n467546\t490472\t我對這樣的講法我是覺得這樣都講法都不夠清楚了我為什麼會這樣問就是說如果算在通訊裡面那你執行通訊監察的時候等於是以賦予調查機關未來可以調查網路流量的一個記錄那等同是什麼呢你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有網路流量的記錄了不是這樣子嗎\n491893\t513822\t法律效果就會變這樣啊。根委員報告其實我們這次修的那個三之一的那個網路流量這個不是通訊。這個不是通訊的一個內容。這個不算通訊內容。這個不算。這只是一個數位的一個軌跡。那個就是一個通訊內容。來來來聽長我來請教你的看法。這個我就跟部長的意見就完全不一樣了。\n515677\t516438\t那你要把它定成什麼?\n516438\t518641\t那他就不是受憲法保障的權利喔?\n533960\t554176\t他還是受憲法保障的權利來來來那憲法哪一個部分的保障的權利那一個是個人資料的一部分那不過跟委員報告一下在目前的相關的開戶資料我想在我們在偵查機關經常會調取什麼金融機構的帳戶的開戶資料那對偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的那所以說後面的\n555157\t576348\t這相關的所謂的當事人覺得受侵害怎麼去表示不服或是有一個救濟程序的話也許透過416條的相關的一個準抗告程序的擴張解釋應該是可以扯遠了有點扯遠了我的意思是說如果這個法條你把它定下去的話你會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量的一個紀錄\n578868\t581509\t所以說嘛所以說嘛到最後變成強制你整個電信業者必須要把這個網路的流量的記錄把它做一個保存啊\n595413\t620372\t這個很可怕我是覺得這個很可怕要再跟社會講清楚了整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督的一個機制都沒有在法律層次裡面去做訂定跟委員報告其實在三條之一就是這些網路的流量紀錄是有列取六項的流量紀錄這個很清楚只有這六項的流量紀錄列取的才需要保存所以就變成強制啦\n622333\t626655\t那你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你們也沒去做說明啊你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 從網域裡面一個名稱到協定的資料裡面 你就變成說我就可以知道說使用者進去哪一個網頁用了什麼APP 那其實就是瀏覽記錄的一部分了嘛\n639582\t640323\t我意思是說你要整包齁\n667282\t683308\t告別電信業者立法院一定要強制他必須要去做一個留存了啦這很可怕你知道嗎我就跟你說你像比如說我們內政部我們政府機關常常有一些資料個人隱私的資料會外洩啊你這一個落後\n686246\t701290\t你就變成我們整個這個會壯大收集整個各自數量跟那個類型跟數量你這個到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料的一個分析像目前的目前的通信記錄本來這些電信業者本就在保留了\n702745\t727370\t那現在我們是增加因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化的現在用我們現在傳統那個門號的那種的詐騙方式他現在已經已經變成是不是居住那麼重要現在整個網路的一個詐騙變多了所以我們才有這一條其實這就是等於一個通聯的一個就像我們那個門號的一個通聯記錄而已而且我們限縮在列列舉的六種的一個一個網路的\n728910\t754299\t一個流量的就限定他6個是嘛你去看我們整個通保法嘛為什麼到最後要採令狀那在採令狀你也不是什麼罪你都可以去監聽捏這針對重大類型的一個犯罪捏這齁我再一次來講啦齁再一次來講啦這個齁連這個部分法官保留齁我都覺得這會養出另外一頭巨獸\n759516\t771065\t這個我再次提出叮嚀一下就是說昨天講很多東西我相信不同的政黨的委員也都有去提到你們動不動就講說內空會用行政監督\n772096\t796955\t那我現在講的是說你這些資料的保存業者的監督業者保存的範圍你這根本就看不到內控你行政監督你怎麼去管理啦我擔心的是這個法律有明我規定這個草案有規定就是一定要定執法那個是在14條之一這是一個執法的在第6第6項第6項要定執法\n797796\t814707\t那另外委員有關心的這些的問題這個在第14條之一都有做相關的一個規定我想這部分可以細部的我會再跟你就教啦我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念你強制的業者了以後那他本來保存了以後那保存了以後假設我是駭客啦\n815808\t834999\t我又把你給侵入了啦你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪啦你就本一到最後把龐大國人的網路流量記錄交給別人來做一個掌管喔那個如果遭到外洩的這個後果又非常的嚴重你網路流量其實也會去記錄到當中的一個IP啊如果遭到外洩取得位置發動一些網路的一個詐騙的話甚至害入整個電腦的話說 說 一個問題還刪除一個問題出來勒\n841397\t844721\t我從昨天到現在的用語都是講說再考慮一下看是不是可以把這個整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分\n861101\t871973\t再去做一個考量啦我要再一次再提出來總是要提醒啦雖然是執政黨的但是我看來以後我把我的疑慮憂慮再提出來讓你們做一個提醒好不好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,有請我們法務部政部長有請政部長司法院今天是李廳長委員早部長我想今天幾個問題來救教這個我相信在法律人最有名的一個\n對於大法官會議的一個解釋大家都耳熟能詳的就是釋字第631號631號我看他在整個解釋裡面\n他有特別去你把他整個文件把他給看完以後你會看到就是說你如果說把人民的權利跟刑事訴訟就是刑事訴追的關係來列一個位階的話我不曉得部長你把什麼列為是第一個位階這兩個來做比較這問你就有趣了\n這個大法官4-631號解釋是主要是闡述那個那個保障那個只要是對秘密通訊自由的一些含色的範圍做一個做一個釐清\n對所以嘛我就我就問了就是說如果你把人民的權利跟刑事訴追的關係來排列位階的話第一個位階當然就一定是憲法保障的基本人權嘛第二個才會是我們的這個刑事訴追的一個利益啊這個從幾號幾號的一個大法官會議的一個解釋啊我們都可以看到了就是變成說隱私權跟秘密通訊這樣的一個自由啊這個其實就是一個普世的一個價值啦\n這我相信應該各位都可以來認同要怎麼樣去限制它第一個你必須要去合理或者正當我們整個通訊的一個監察我們看從過去從1999年通保法裡面檢察官去得到授權進行通訊監察到現在授權偵查機關你也必須要檢察官向法院來申請這樣的一個令狀\n其實這個都在表明國人跟執行機關對於通訊自由的一個重視那我今天為什麼特別會提出來就是延續著昨天的一個對法務部跟司法院這邊的一個詢問有幾個概念裡面其實我倒會覺得說我們今天在審查這樣的一個條文大法官事事631號其實還是很重要的一個基石很重要的一個基石\n那今天呢涉及到整個監察的情況你像譬如說事中的監察事後的監察這個都很重要我看在解釋文裡面他也講得非常清楚了這個涉及到這比一般的強制處分還要更嚴重我們今天得這些條文那\n我昨天提出一個最可怕的就是說你去做一般法院在或者司法機關在做強制處分的時候人民還可以現實的可以知道還可以行使一些防疫權那這種通訊跟屬於通訊跟監察的範圍裡面\n來無影去無蹤神不知鬼不覺所以過去我們歷次的一個修法裡面會有這麼多的爭議那你到了馬王政爭以後\n整部法律院又去翻修到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的你就一直監聽監聽下去嘛到最後變成說一人一狀一人一個你要監聽特定人的你就必須要經過法院的一個核可\n那我這一次要再提出來了就是說我們這個法令定下去以後我們最擔心的就是說你在當事人甚至於第三人毫不知情之下會導致整個訴訟上的一個防禦沒有辦法去行使連聲明不符的機會都沒有啦這個是在631解釋裡面都要講得非常清楚啦那這一次的重點我就要來講啦就是說網路流量記錄這個太陽你把它加入這個變成可收集的一個證據的部分以後啊\n那我們本法在第15條又沒有去跟著修訂整個增訂整個告知的一個義務啦那我請教法務部長就是說對於沒有把網路流量這個紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼我特別來做請教\n這個通知當然是為了一個救濟但是是不是說要給予通知救濟那我想這個是應該有司法院來就會有通盤的一個考量這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量\n這個是一個有爭議我們從整個這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑訴書416條來提救濟嘛那既然是有必須要救濟的這部分這部分我們是法務部好那我請教司法院那個女廳長\n我是覺得你們這樣的一個解釋這個都不夠充分的其實我是把問題丟出來給你們你們應該充分的跟社會來做一個對話你從憲法第22條你就可以去引申出來\n整個資訊的一個自主權這個在其實在釋之603號跟689號裡面解釋裡面都有去提到啦這明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的一個自主權這個都屬於憲法保障上的一個權利因為昨天啊聽長你也在你們談到這個部分你們都是在講說我行政上的內控你們一直在談在這個內控可是呢\n你說個人的資料自主如果受到大法官這樣我剛提到這樣的肯認的話那你應該獲得相當的一個重視所以我一直在強調說這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題嘛那你們在事務條裡面沒有跟著去做一個徵定聽著你剛部長那個講法你可以做補充嗎\n如果依照委員的說法我是蠻認同委員的說法應該對人民的權益任何的侵害或是這個應該要給他有救濟的機會\n法務部這次提出這個修法我知道你們都利益良善但是我在這個地方其實都是在提出提醒你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微這個部分其實我是不認同的這個是一個基本權利的一個保障的一個問題你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候你說姓名、身分證、字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握\n那這一些資料不是所謂的影響輕微啦我是覺得至少不然你們用字這個部分也不要這樣說你知道嗎也不要這樣說這個就不對喔那這一次修法裡面你看你重點是修正了三條字一定的這個名詞網路流量所以網路流量是不是含設在第三條所稱的一個通訊\n跟委員報告齁因為我們認為那個只有使用者的資料這基本資料這是非常輕微那其他我們不認為就是說對隱私錢的一個干預我們認為是要法官保留所以我們認為是要經過許可的\n我對這樣的講法我是覺得這樣都講法都不夠清楚了我為什麼會這樣問就是說如果算在通訊裡面那你執行通訊監察的時候等於是以賦予調查機關未來可以調查網路流量的一個記錄那等同是什麼呢你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有網路流量的記錄了不是這樣子嗎\n法律效果就會變這樣啊。根委員報告其實我們這次修的那個三之一的那個網路流量這個不是通訊。這個不是通訊的一個內容。這個不算通訊內容。這個不算。這只是一個數位的一個軌跡。那個就是一個通訊內容。來來來聽長我來請教你的看法。這個我就跟部長的意見就完全不一樣了。\n那你要把它定成什麼?\n那他就不是受憲法保障的權利喔?\n他還是受憲法保障的權利來來來那憲法哪一個部分的保障的權利那一個是個人資料的一部分那不過跟委員報告一下在目前的相關的開戶資料我想在我們在偵查機關經常會調取什麼金融機構的帳戶的開戶資料那對偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的那所以說後面的\n這相關的所謂的當事人覺得受侵害怎麼去表示不服或是有一個救濟程序的話也許透過416條的相關的一個準抗告程序的擴張解釋應該是可以扯遠了有點扯遠了我的意思是說如果這個法條你把它定下去的話你會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量的一個紀錄\n所以說嘛所以說嘛到最後變成強制你整個電信業者必須要把這個網路的流量的記錄把它做一個保存啊\n這個很可怕我是覺得這個很可怕要再跟社會講清楚了整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督的一個機制都沒有在法律層次裡面去做訂定跟委員報告其實在三條之一就是這些網路的流量紀錄是有列取六項的流量紀錄這個很清楚只有這六項的流量紀錄列取的才需要保存所以就變成強制啦\n那你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你們也沒去做說明啊你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 從網域裡面一個名稱到協定的資料裡面 你就變成說我就可以知道說使用者進去哪一個網頁用了什麼APP 那其實就是瀏覽記錄的一部分了嘛\n我意思是說你要整包齁\n告別電信業者立法院一定要強制他必須要去做一個留存了啦這很可怕你知道嗎我就跟你說你像比如說我們內政部我們政府機關常常有一些資料個人隱私的資料會外洩啊你這一個落後\n你就變成我們整個這個會壯大收集整個各自數量跟那個類型跟數量你這個到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料的一個分析像目前的目前的通信記錄本來這些電信業者本就在保留了\n那現在我們是增加因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化的現在用我們現在傳統那個門號的那種的詐騙方式他現在已經已經變成是不是居住那麼重要現在整個網路的一個詐騙變多了所以我們才有這一條其實這就是等於一個通聯的一個就像我們那個門號的一個通聯記錄而已而且我們限縮在列列舉的六種的一個一個網路的\n一個流量的就限定他6個是嘛你去看我們整個通保法嘛為什麼到最後要採令狀那在採令狀你也不是什麼罪你都可以去監聽捏這針對重大類型的一個犯罪捏這齁我再一次來講啦齁再一次來講啦這個齁連這個部分法官保留齁我都覺得這會養出另外一頭巨獸\n這個我再次提出叮嚀一下就是說昨天講很多東西我相信不同的政黨的委員也都有去提到你們動不動就講說內空會用行政監督\n那我現在講的是說你這些資料的保存業者的監督業者保存的範圍你這根本就看不到內控你行政監督你怎麼去管理啦我擔心的是這個法律有明我規定這個草案有規定就是一定要定執法那個是在14條之一這是一個執法的在第6第6項第6項要定執法\n那另外委員有關心的這些的問題這個在第14條之一都有做相關的一個規定我想這部分可以細部的我會再跟你就教啦我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念你強制的業者了以後那他本來保存了以後那保存了以後假設我是駭客啦\n我又把你給侵入了啦你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪啦你就本一到最後把龐大國人的網路流量記錄交給別人來做一個掌管喔那個如果遭到外洩的這個後果又非常的嚴重你網路流量其實也會去記錄到當中的一個IP啊如果遭到外洩取得位置發動一些網路的一個詐騙的話甚至害入整個電腦的話說 說 一個問題還刪除一個問題出來勒\n我從昨天到現在的用語都是講說再考慮一下看是不是可以把這個整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分\n再去做一個考量啦我要再一次再提出來總是要提醒啦雖然是執政黨的但是我看來以後我把我的疑慮憂慮再提出來讓你們做一個提醒好不好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.413 --> 00:16.555\n謝謝主席,有請我們法務部政部長有請政部長司法院今天是李廳長委員早部長我想今天幾個問題來救教這個我相信在法律人最有名的一個\n\n00:33.243 --> 00:39.507\n對於大法官會議的一個解釋大家都耳熟能詳的就是釋字第631號631號我看他在整個解釋裡面\n\n00:47.711 --> 01:05.389\n他有特別去你把他整個文件把他給看完以後你會看到就是說你如果說把人民的權利跟刑事訴訟就是刑事訴追的關係來列一個位階的話我不曉得部長你把什麼列為是第一個位階這兩個來做比較這問你就有趣了\n\n01:14.676 --> 01:27.653\n這個大法官4-631號解釋是主要是闡述那個那個保障那個只要是對秘密通訊自由的一些含色的範圍做一個做一個釐清\n\n01:28.914 --> 01:56.904\n對所以嘛我就我就問了就是說如果你把人民的權利跟刑事訴追的關係來排列位階的話第一個位階當然就一定是憲法保障的基本人權嘛第二個才會是我們的這個刑事訴追的一個利益啊這個從幾號幾號的一個大法官會議的一個解釋啊我們都可以看到了就是變成說隱私權跟秘密通訊這樣的一個自由啊這個其實就是一個普世的一個價值啦\n\n01:57.814 --> 02:22.866\n這我相信應該各位都可以來認同要怎麼樣去限制它第一個你必須要去合理或者正當我們整個通訊的一個監察我們看從過去從1999年通保法裡面檢察官去得到授權進行通訊監察到現在授權偵查機關你也必須要檢察官向法院來申請這樣的一個令狀\n\n02:23.866 --> 02:48.565\n其實這個都在表明國人跟執行機關對於通訊自由的一個重視那我今天為什麼特別會提出來就是延續著昨天的一個對法務部跟司法院這邊的一個詢問有幾個概念裡面其實我倒會覺得說我們今天在審查這樣的一個條文大法官事事631號其實還是很重要的一個基石很重要的一個基石\n\n02:49.326 --> 03:05.374\n那今天呢涉及到整個監察的情況你像譬如說事中的監察事後的監察這個都很重要我看在解釋文裡面他也講得非常清楚了這個涉及到這比一般的強制處分還要更嚴重我們今天得這些條文那\n\n03:07.179 --> 03:23.280\n我昨天提出一個最可怕的就是說你去做一般法院在或者司法機關在做強制處分的時候人民還可以現實的可以知道還可以行使一些防疫權那這種通訊跟屬於通訊跟監察的範圍裡面\n\n03:25.102 --> 03:29.524\n來無影去無蹤神不知鬼不覺所以過去我們歷次的一個修法裡面會有這麼多的爭議那你到了馬王政爭以後\n\n03:41.365 --> 03:55.961\n整部法律院又去翻修到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的你就一直監聽監聽下去嘛到最後變成說一人一狀一人一個你要監聽特定人的你就必須要經過法院的一個核可\n\n03:56.582 --> 04:25.698\n那我這一次要再提出來了就是說我們這個法令定下去以後我們最擔心的就是說你在當事人甚至於第三人毫不知情之下會導致整個訴訟上的一個防禦沒有辦法去行使連聲明不符的機會都沒有啦這個是在631解釋裡面都要講得非常清楚啦那這一次的重點我就要來講啦就是說網路流量記錄這個太陽你把它加入這個變成可收集的一個證據的部分以後啊\n\n04:26.246 --> 04:46.162\n那我們本法在第15條又沒有去跟著修訂整個增訂整個告知的一個義務啦那我請教法務部長就是說對於沒有把網路流量這個紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼我特別來做請教\n\n04:48.520 --> 05:04.603\n這個通知當然是為了一個救濟但是是不是說要給予通知救濟那我想這個是應該有司法院來就會有通盤的一個考量這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量\n\n05:05.784 --> 05:23.042\n這個是一個有爭議我們從整個這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑訴書416條來提救濟嘛那既然是有必須要救濟的這部分這部分我們是法務部好那我請教司法院那個女廳長\n\n05:25.236 --> 05:37.908\n我是覺得你們這樣的一個解釋這個都不夠充分的其實我是把問題丟出來給你們你們應該充分的跟社會來做一個對話你從憲法第22條你就可以去引申出來\n\n05:38.837 --> 06:04.597\n整個資訊的一個自主權這個在其實在釋之603號跟689號裡面解釋裡面都有去提到啦這明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的一個自主權這個都屬於憲法保障上的一個權利因為昨天啊聽長你也在你們談到這個部分你們都是在講說我行政上的內控你們一直在談在這個內控可是呢\n\n06:06.977 --> 06:26.537\n你說個人的資料自主如果受到大法官這樣我剛提到這樣的肯認的話那你應該獲得相當的一個重視所以我一直在強調說這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題嘛那你們在事務條裡面沒有跟著去做一個徵定聽著你剛部長那個講法你可以做補充嗎\n\n06:29.502 --> 06:37.977\n如果依照委員的說法我是蠻認同委員的說法應該對人民的權益任何的侵害或是這個應該要給他有救濟的機會\n\n06:40.307 --> 07:08.693\n法務部這次提出這個修法我知道你們都利益良善但是我在這個地方其實都是在提出提醒你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微這個部分其實我是不認同的這個是一個基本權利的一個保障的一個問題你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候你說姓名、身分證、字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握\n\n07:09.353 --> 07:28.142\n那這一些資料不是所謂的影響輕微啦我是覺得至少不然你們用字這個部分也不要這樣說你知道嗎也不要這樣說這個就不對喔那這一次修法裡面你看你重點是修正了三條字一定的這個名詞網路流量所以網路流量是不是含設在第三條所稱的一個通訊\n\n07:30.772 --> 07:44.259\n跟委員報告齁因為我們認為那個只有使用者的資料這基本資料這是非常輕微那其他我們不認為就是說對隱私錢的一個干預我們認為是要法官保留所以我們認為是要經過許可的\n\n07:47.546 --> 08:10.472\n我對這樣的講法我是覺得這樣都講法都不夠清楚了我為什麼會這樣問就是說如果算在通訊裡面那你執行通訊監察的時候等於是以賦予調查機關未來可以調查網路流量的一個記錄那等同是什麼呢你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有網路流量的記錄了不是這樣子嗎\n\n08:11.893 --> 08:33.822\n法律效果就會變這樣啊。根委員報告其實我們這次修的那個三之一的那個網路流量這個不是通訊。這個不是通訊的一個內容。這個不算通訊內容。這個不算。這只是一個數位的一個軌跡。那個就是一個通訊內容。來來來聽長我來請教你的看法。這個我就跟部長的意見就完全不一樣了。\n\n08:35.677 --> 08:36.438\n那你要把它定成什麼?\n\n08:36.438 --> 08:38.641\n那他就不是受憲法保障的權利喔?\n\n08:53.960 --> 09:14.176\n他還是受憲法保障的權利來來來那憲法哪一個部分的保障的權利那一個是個人資料的一部分那不過跟委員報告一下在目前的相關的開戶資料我想在我們在偵查機關經常會調取什麼金融機構的帳戶的開戶資料那對偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的那所以說後面的\n\n09:15.157 --> 09:36.348\n這相關的所謂的當事人覺得受侵害怎麼去表示不服或是有一個救濟程序的話也許透過416條的相關的一個準抗告程序的擴張解釋應該是可以扯遠了有點扯遠了我的意思是說如果這個法條你把它定下去的話你會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量的一個紀錄\n\n09:38.868 --> 09:41.509\n所以說嘛所以說嘛到最後變成強制你整個電信業者必須要把這個網路的流量的記錄把它做一個保存啊\n\n09:55.413 --> 10:20.372\n這個很可怕我是覺得這個很可怕要再跟社會講清楚了整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督的一個機制都沒有在法律層次裡面去做訂定跟委員報告其實在三條之一就是這些網路的流量紀錄是有列取六項的流量紀錄這個很清楚只有這六項的流量紀錄列取的才需要保存所以就變成強制啦\n\n10:22.333 --> 10:26.655\n那你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面你們也沒去做說明啊你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義從網域裡面一個名稱到協定的資料裡面你就變成說我就可以知道說使用者進去哪一個網頁用了什麼APP那其實就是瀏覽記錄的一部分了嘛\n\n10:39.582 --> 10:40.323\n我意思是說你要整包齁\n\n11:07.282 --> 11:23.308\n告別電信業者立法院一定要強制他必須要去做一個留存了啦這很可怕你知道嗎我就跟你說你像比如說我們內政部我們政府機關常常有一些資料個人隱私的資料會外洩啊你這一個落後\n\n11:26.246 --> 11:41.290\n你就變成我們整個這個會壯大收集整個各自數量跟那個類型跟數量你這個到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料的一個分析像目前的目前的通信記錄本來這些電信業者本就在保留了\n\n11:42.745 --> 12:07.370\n那現在我們是增加因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化的現在用我們現在傳統那個門號的那種的詐騙方式他現在已經已經變成是不是居住那麼重要現在整個網路的一個詐騙變多了所以我們才有這一條其實這就是等於一個通聯的一個就像我們那個門號的一個通聯記錄而已而且我們限縮在列列舉的六種的一個一個網路的\n\n12:08.910 --> 12:34.299\n一個流量的就限定他6個是嘛你去看我們整個通保法嘛為什麼到最後要採令狀那在採令狀你也不是什麼罪你都可以去監聽捏這針對重大類型的一個犯罪捏這齁我再一次來講啦齁再一次來講啦這個齁連這個部分法官保留齁我都覺得這會養出另外一頭巨獸\n\n12:39.516 --> 12:51.065\n這個我再次提出叮嚀一下就是說昨天講很多東西我相信不同的政黨的委員也都有去提到你們動不動就講說內空會用行政監督\n\n12:52.096 --> 13:16.955\n那我現在講的是說你這些資料的保存業者的監督業者保存的範圍你這根本就看不到內控你行政監督你怎麼去管理啦我擔心的是這個法律有明我規定這個草案有規定就是一定要定執法那個是在14條之一這是一個執法的在第6第6項第6項要定執法\n\n13:17.796 --> 13:34.707\n那另外委員有關心的這些的問題這個在第14條之一都有做相關的一個規定我想這部分可以細部的我會再跟你就教啦我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念你強制的業者了以後那他本來保存了以後那保存了以後假設我是駭客啦\n\n13:35.808 --> 13:54.999\n我又把你給侵入了啦你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪啦你就本一到最後把龐大國人的網路流量記錄交給別人來做一個掌管喔那個如果遭到外洩的這個後果又非常的嚴重你網路流量其實也會去記錄到當中的一個IP啊如果遭到外洩取得位置發動一些網路的一個詐騙的話甚至害入整個電腦的話說說一個問題還刪除一個問題出來勒\n\n14:01.397 --> 14:04.721\n我從昨天到現在的用語都是講說再考慮一下看是不是可以把這個整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分\n\n14:21.101 --> 14:31.973\n再去做一個考量啦我要再一次再提出來總是要提醒啦雖然是執政黨的但是我看來以後我把我的疑慮憂慮再提出來讓你們做一個提醒好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.413,"end":16.555,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們法務部政部長有請政部長司法院今天是李廳長委員早部長我想今天幾個問題來救教這個我相信在法律人最有名的一個"},{"start":33.243,"end":39.507,"text":"對於大法官會議的一個解釋大家都耳熟能詳的就是釋字第631號631號我看他在整個解釋裡面"},{"start":47.711,"end":65.389,"text":"他有特別去你把他整個文件把他給看完以後你會看到就是說你如果說把人民的權利跟刑事訴訟就是刑事訴追的關係來列一個位階的話我不曉得部長你把什麼列為是第一個位階這兩個來做比較這問你就有趣了"},{"start":74.676,"end":87.653,"text":"這個大法官4-631號解釋是主要是闡述那個那個保障那個只要是對秘密通訊自由的一些含色的範圍做一個做一個釐清"},{"start":88.914,"end":116.904,"text":"對所以嘛我就我就問了就是說如果你把人民的權利跟刑事訴追的關係來排列位階的話第一個位階當然就一定是憲法保障的基本人權嘛第二個才會是我們的這個刑事訴追的一個利益啊這個從幾號幾號的一個大法官會議的一個解釋啊我們都可以看到了就是變成說隱私權跟秘密通訊這樣的一個自由啊這個其實就是一個普世的一個價值啦"},{"start":117.814,"end":142.866,"text":"這我相信應該各位都可以來認同要怎麼樣去限制它第一個你必須要去合理或者正當我們整個通訊的一個監察我們看從過去從1999年通保法裡面檢察官去得到授權進行通訊監察到現在授權偵查機關你也必須要檢察官向法院來申請這樣的一個令狀"},{"start":143.866,"end":168.565,"text":"其實這個都在表明國人跟執行機關對於通訊自由的一個重視那我今天為什麼特別會提出來就是延續著昨天的一個對法務部跟司法院這邊的一個詢問有幾個概念裡面其實我倒會覺得說我們今天在審查這樣的一個條文大法官事事631號其實還是很重要的一個基石很重要的一個基石"},{"start":169.326,"end":185.374,"text":"那今天呢涉及到整個監察的情況你像譬如說事中的監察事後的監察這個都很重要我看在解釋文裡面他也講得非常清楚了這個涉及到這比一般的強制處分還要更嚴重我們今天得這些條文那"},{"start":187.179,"end":203.28,"text":"我昨天提出一個最可怕的就是說你去做一般法院在或者司法機關在做強制處分的時候人民還可以現實的可以知道還可以行使一些防疫權那這種通訊跟屬於通訊跟監察的範圍裡面"},{"start":205.102,"end":209.524,"text":"來無影去無蹤神不知鬼不覺所以過去我們歷次的一個修法裡面會有這麼多的爭議那你到了馬王政爭以後"},{"start":221.365,"end":235.961,"text":"整部法律院又去翻修到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的你就一直監聽監聽下去嘛到最後變成說一人一狀一人一個你要監聽特定人的你就必須要經過法院的一個核可"},{"start":236.582,"end":265.698,"text":"那我這一次要再提出來了就是說我們這個法令定下去以後我們最擔心的就是說你在當事人甚至於第三人毫不知情之下會導致整個訴訟上的一個防禦沒有辦法去行使連聲明不符的機會都沒有啦這個是在631解釋裡面都要講得非常清楚啦那這一次的重點我就要來講啦就是說網路流量記錄這個太陽你把它加入這個變成可收集的一個證據的部分以後啊"},{"start":266.246,"end":286.162,"text":"那我們本法在第15條又沒有去跟著修訂整個增訂整個告知的一個義務啦那我請教法務部長就是說對於沒有把網路流量這個紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼我特別來做請教"},{"start":288.52,"end":304.603,"text":"這個通知當然是為了一個救濟但是是不是說要給予通知救濟那我想這個是應該有司法院來就會有通盤的一個考量這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量"},{"start":305.784,"end":323.042,"text":"這個是一個有爭議我們從整個這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑訴書416條來提救濟嘛那既然是有必須要救濟的這部分這部分我們是法務部好那我請教司法院那個女廳長"},{"start":325.236,"end":337.908,"text":"我是覺得你們這樣的一個解釋這個都不夠充分的其實我是把問題丟出來給你們你們應該充分的跟社會來做一個對話你從憲法第22條你就可以去引申出來"},{"start":338.837,"end":364.597,"text":"整個資訊的一個自主權這個在其實在釋之603號跟689號裡面解釋裡面都有去提到啦這明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的一個自主權這個都屬於憲法保障上的一個權利因為昨天啊聽長你也在你們談到這個部分你們都是在講說我行政上的內控你們一直在談在這個內控可是呢"},{"start":366.977,"end":386.537,"text":"你說個人的資料自主如果受到大法官這樣我剛提到這樣的肯認的話那你應該獲得相當的一個重視所以我一直在強調說這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題嘛那你們在事務條裡面沒有跟著去做一個徵定聽著你剛部長那個講法你可以做補充嗎"},{"start":389.502,"end":397.977,"text":"如果依照委員的說法我是蠻認同委員的說法應該對人民的權益任何的侵害或是這個應該要給他有救濟的機會"},{"start":400.307,"end":428.693,"text":"法務部這次提出這個修法我知道你們都利益良善但是我在這個地方其實都是在提出提醒你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微這個部分其實我是不認同的這個是一個基本權利的一個保障的一個問題你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候你說姓名、身分證、字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握"},{"start":429.353,"end":448.142,"text":"那這一些資料不是所謂的影響輕微啦我是覺得至少不然你們用字這個部分也不要這樣說你知道嗎也不要這樣說這個就不對喔那這一次修法裡面你看你重點是修正了三條字一定的這個名詞網路流量所以網路流量是不是含設在第三條所稱的一個通訊"},{"start":450.772,"end":464.259,"text":"跟委員報告齁因為我們認為那個只有使用者的資料這基本資料這是非常輕微那其他我們不認為就是說對隱私錢的一個干預我們認為是要法官保留所以我們認為是要經過許可的"},{"start":467.546,"end":490.472,"text":"我對這樣的講法我是覺得這樣都講法都不夠清楚了我為什麼會這樣問就是說如果算在通訊裡面那你執行通訊監察的時候等於是以賦予調查機關未來可以調查網路流量的一個記錄那等同是什麼呢你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有網路流量的記錄了不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":491.893,"end":513.822,"text":"法律效果就會變這樣啊。根委員報告其實我們這次修的那個三之一的那個網路流量這個不是通訊。這個不是通訊的一個內容。這個不算通訊內容。這個不算。這只是一個數位的一個軌跡。那個就是一個通訊內容。來來來聽長我來請教你的看法。這個我就跟部長的意見就完全不一樣了。"},{"start":515.677,"end":516.438,"text":"那你要把它定成什麼?"},{"start":516.438,"end":518.641,"text":"那他就不是受憲法保障的權利喔?"},{"start":533.96,"end":554.176,"text":"他還是受憲法保障的權利來來來那憲法哪一個部分的保障的權利那一個是個人資料的一部分那不過跟委員報告一下在目前的相關的開戶資料我想在我們在偵查機關經常會調取什麼金融機構的帳戶的開戶資料那對偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的那所以說後面的"},{"start":555.157,"end":576.348,"text":"這相關的所謂的當事人覺得受侵害怎麼去表示不服或是有一個救濟程序的話也許透過416條的相關的一個準抗告程序的擴張解釋應該是可以扯遠了有點扯遠了我的意思是說如果這個法條你把它定下去的話你會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量的一個紀錄"},{"start":578.868,"end":581.509,"text":"所以說嘛所以說嘛到最後變成強制你整個電信業者必須要把這個網路的流量的記錄把它做一個保存啊"},{"start":595.413,"end":620.372,"text":"這個很可怕我是覺得這個很可怕要再跟社會講清楚了整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督的一個機制都沒有在法律層次裡面去做訂定跟委員報告其實在三條之一就是這些網路的流量紀錄是有列取六項的流量紀錄這個很清楚只有這六項的流量紀錄列取的才需要保存所以就變成強制啦"},{"start":622.333,"end":626.655,"text":"那你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你們也沒去做說明啊你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 從網域裡面一個名稱到協定的資料裡面 你就變成說我就可以知道說使用者進去哪一個網頁用了什麼APP 那其實就是瀏覽記錄的一部分了嘛"},{"start":639.582,"end":640.323,"text":"我意思是說你要整包齁"},{"start":667.282,"end":683.308,"text":"告別電信業者立法院一定要強制他必須要去做一個留存了啦這很可怕你知道嗎我就跟你說你像比如說我們內政部我們政府機關常常有一些資料個人隱私的資料會外洩啊你這一個落後"},{"start":686.246,"end":701.29,"text":"你就變成我們整個這個會壯大收集整個各自數量跟那個類型跟數量你這個到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料的一個分析像目前的目前的通信記錄本來這些電信業者本就在保留了"},{"start":702.745,"end":727.37,"text":"那現在我們是增加因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化的現在用我們現在傳統那個門號的那種的詐騙方式他現在已經已經變成是不是居住那麼重要現在整個網路的一個詐騙變多了所以我們才有這一條其實這就是等於一個通聯的一個就像我們那個門號的一個通聯記錄而已而且我們限縮在列列舉的六種的一個一個網路的"},{"start":728.91,"end":754.299,"text":"一個流量的就限定他6個是嘛你去看我們整個通保法嘛為什麼到最後要採令狀那在採令狀你也不是什麼罪你都可以去監聽捏這針對重大類型的一個犯罪捏這齁我再一次來講啦齁再一次來講啦這個齁連這個部分法官保留齁我都覺得這會養出另外一頭巨獸"},{"start":759.516,"end":771.065,"text":"這個我再次提出叮嚀一下就是說昨天講很多東西我相信不同的政黨的委員也都有去提到你們動不動就講說內空會用行政監督"},{"start":772.096,"end":796.955,"text":"那我現在講的是說你這些資料的保存業者的監督業者保存的範圍你這根本就看不到內控你行政監督你怎麼去管理啦我擔心的是這個法律有明我規定這個草案有規定就是一定要定執法那個是在14條之一這是一個執法的在第6第6項第6項要定執法"},{"start":797.796,"end":814.707,"text":"那另外委員有關心的這些的問題這個在第14條之一都有做相關的一個規定我想這部分可以細部的我會再跟你就教啦我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念你強制的業者了以後那他本來保存了以後那保存了以後假設我是駭客啦"},{"start":815.808,"end":834.999,"text":"我又把你給侵入了啦你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪啦你就本一到最後把龐大國人的網路流量記錄交給別人來做一個掌管喔那個如果遭到外洩的這個後果又非常的嚴重你網路流量其實也會去記錄到當中的一個IP啊如果遭到外洩取得位置發動一些網路的一個詐騙的話甚至害入整個電腦的話說 說 一個問題還刪除一個問題出來勒"},{"start":841.397,"end":844.721,"text":"我從昨天到現在的用語都是講說再考慮一下看是不是可以把這個整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分"},{"start":861.101,"end":871.973,"text":"再去做一個考量啦我要再一次再提出來總是要提醒啦雖然是執政黨的但是我看來以後我把我的疑慮憂慮再提出來讓你們做一個提醒好不好謝謝"}]}}}}