{"id":153678,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5e80db146b9594d2079f99d17e212a4188282b1d5b897dd1c4dc9c27a7575cebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:49:05 - 10:01:43","影片長度":"00:12:38","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:49:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:01:43+08:00","duration":758,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時49分）主席好，我們有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員早。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長你好。你是第二任的環境部長，也是執行這次淨零轉型碳費徵收政策的部長，所以在產業界大家對你都有碳焦慮，害怕碳費定價真的從300元開始收取，影響產業的生存。還好，本席看到部長已經公開表示，希望一開始不要給企業太大的壓力，未來的費率會斜率向上，分階段調高費率，本席非常肯定部長務實的態度。那麼第四次的碳費審議會暫定在7月5號召開，在這之前我還是要為產業請命，請教部長，碳費目前的方向是1公噸要收300元嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個目前是由碳費審議會正在訂定費率當中，他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，根據我們碳權專家臺北大學李堅明教授的分析，如果碳費按照每公噸300元來課徵，將對部分產業有非常巨大的衝擊，我這邊有一張表，請部長看一下，針對國內主要的鋼鐵及石化業，以去年的碳排量來計算，中鋼公司1年碳排量是2,200萬公噸，就要繳交60億的碳費，那遠遠超出它46億元的稅前盈餘，也就是說，中鋼還沒有繳稅就先虧14億。第二個，我們看中石化，原本稅前就虧損5.9億，再繳5億的碳費，就會加倍，就會虧到10億元左右。那台塑則要繳交高達98億元的碳費，占稅前營利的17%，這個徵收的整體規模可能達到五、六百億。請問部長，您認為我們的企業真的可以承受這樣的費率嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，碳費的計算是一個很複雜的算法，很多人不懂，所以我必須說這個表格的計算是太過簡化了，事實上，我們必須考慮到一個產業自主減碳的計畫，所以如果我們現在來看這幾個企業，像中鋼就做得非常好，如果依照它有自主減量計畫，甚至也要考慮到它的高碳洩漏係數，其實它不用繳到那麼高，但是這個還是要由碳費審議會決定，就是說碳費不是只用排碳量多少然後乘以一個價錢算出來的結果。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們擔心的就是如果企業的這個部分真的這樣收的時候，那我們也要做全盤的考量，不要影響到民生，因為有很多東西是相關、有連帶關係的，如果企業的成本增加，它就會調漲售價，調漲對我們老百姓會有直接的影響，部長可能也要把這個考慮進去。部長，您認為我們的碳費現在應該是多少錢才合理？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，這個是要由碳費審議委員會來決定，但是目前在全世界必須有幾個考量，像歐盟現在碳交易的價格大概是70塊歐元左右，然後在有些國家大概預期未來2030到2040年可能會是100到200塊美元，所以其實這些企業現在應該要趕快想辦法，而不是說我不准收這個費用，大家要來想辦法，這是最重要的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我跟部長報告，這個是由碳費審議會做決議，我們大家都知道，但是傳出來的聲音非常多，在之前傳出每公噸大概300元，也有人建議收500元，剛剛部長也提到歐盟的這個部分，我們仔細看了一下，其實歐盟是超出標準才課稅，就是已經超出標準了，他們的課稅標準是針對每個產業前10%企業的平均碳排量，所以雖然稅率看起來很高，但是實際上只徵收超標的部分，幾乎有九成是不用收費的，而且用不到的碳排量還可以當作碳權來交易。我們再看新加坡初期的碳費只收5塊美金，日本也是收2塊美金，所以我們如果收10塊美金，憑良心講，看起來是非常的高。我聽到有很多企業建議，就是希望這個費率能定在100元以內，你認為有可能嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你所列的這幾個國家跟你前面那一張碳費的表是衝突的，所以我建議我們一起把如何去計算的方式搞懂，因為很多的媒體不是很懂，所以搞懂是最主要的。第二件事情，基本上，這些國家都有碳交易跟碳費或碳稅的兩個制度並行，未來環境部也會考量按照國際的趨勢，這個也是總統的政見，我們要有一個更好的、更完善的碳定價機制。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我今天之所以提出這個，當然就是希望部長能夠把這個東西當作一個非常重要的事情，也希望碳費審議會大家都能夠好好考量，因為還沒定。"],["彭部長啓明：我跟委員報告，在五百多家企業裡面，前面大概三、四百家高科技業界都準備好了，他們還罵我們收那麼低會對他們的國際競爭力不利，所以希望能比較高。至於比較困難的企業，這個就是我們要跟經濟部一起來合作，能夠幫忙他們順利的轉型，所以不是說我們全部調低就好。我們也必須考量到我們國內的CPI，不要讓綠色通膨快速的發生，但是綠色通膨依照全世界的情況，我們還是必須考量要淨零碳排一定要有一些不一樣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還有企業也非常關心我們自主減量的優惠費率，根據環境部的規劃，企業適用於優惠的費率在未來10年必須達到削減排放量，鋼鐵業是25%，水泥業是22.3%，其他的行業是42%，也就是說，碳排量每年必須達到4.2%左右才可以享有優惠的費率。我跟部長講，我認為這個目標有點高，因為以目前我們臺灣做得比較好的幾個企業來看，比如說日月光控股、台達電、聯電及台塑都拿到雙A級，但是在4月初有週刊揭露，即使是台塑集團這種減碳策略都已經通過CDP評鑑的資優生也達不到10年42%的碳排目標，所以我認為這個標準有點高，既然才剛開始，我們是要鼓勵大家來做這件事情，我認為部裡面有必要去調整這個優惠的門檻，讓我們的企業大家都能夠更樂意來做這件事情。"],["彭部長啓明：好，關於委員的建議，其實我們的概念還是一樣，一開始低，然後慢慢會逐步地升高，這個是我們目前的共識。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！我們就是希望碳費的徵收也好，淨零減碳是國際產業的發展趨勢，當然徵收碳費的目的是要減碳而不是賺錢。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以希望政府能夠循序漸進，然後慢慢地邁向淨零轉型，不要一下子就讓企業生存不下去，這也不是我們樂見的。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外第二個，我們最近6年來家庭廢棄物和事業廢棄物的產出量大幅攀升，在112年已經分別達到1,158萬公噸、2,004萬公噸，並且由於政府對事業廢棄物處理有很多狀況，包括南部最終處理場的撤銷，以及各地方事業廢棄物專門處理設施的申設不順利，在112年已經有高達171.5萬公噸的事業廢棄物進到我們政府的焚化爐裡面，這個是非常嚴重的，因為根據我們的計算，目前公有焚化爐的年處理量可能只有600公噸，等於將近占了三分之一，這樣除了會排擠到我們一般垃圾的妥善處理率，也會衍生很多的問題。接下來我們看這一張照片，這都是因為各縣市垃圾處理受到事業廢棄物的排擠所以無法順利處理而暫置的狀況，目前包括桃園、新竹、南投等地方的垃圾堆積如山，其中桃園市龍潭區店子湖垃圾掩埋場堆置了上百萬公噸的垃圾，甚至已經高過防護欄，恐有坍塌的危險，另外也產生在中間處理的不肖業者亂倒廢棄物的情形。部長，你知不知道現在政府焚化爐處理事業廢棄物1公噸是多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：不好意思，我請署長回答。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：事業廢棄物大概是1萬塊上下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我是問地方政府。"],["彭部長啓明：對，就是焚化爐。"],["邱委員鎮軍：焚化爐沒有吧？"],["彭部長啓明：地方政府。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：您是說進地方政府的焚化爐？"],["邱委員鎮軍：進地方政府的焚化爐是1萬塊？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，1萬塊上下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道有些事業廢棄物的清運商所收的費用可能不只這樣子，因為如果是進一般民間的可能更高。所以我要講的重點是，我們不能讓這些業者用我們公有的焚化爐來讓他們獲利，這個是暴利。當然我們也要讓這些業者有地方去，我剛剛也聽到好幾個委員提到，就是我們現在事業廢棄物處理的部分根本沒有地方去，這是一個非常嚴重的問題，搞到後面，當這邊也不能收、那邊也不能收的時候，就是亂倒了。部長，你對於這個有沒有什麼想法？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在已經有方案來推動這件事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是什麼方式？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：行政院已經核定的方案，由環境部、經濟部跟國發會在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我聽說有在做二十……"],["賴署長瑩瑩：現在有推動十二座設施。"],["邱委員鎮軍：十二座嘛！其實很多政策，像我們都知道垃圾沒辦法處理，可是當到了地方要設置的時候，就會因為地方不同的聲音而退卻。一般民間業者其實也是碰到這樣的問題，我在這邊建議環境部，應該要拿出政府的魄力，該做就要做，不然到時候這些垃圾要去哪裡呢？我認為各縣市都應該要有一個責任區，甚至部長應該要給各縣市鼓勵、獎勵，要求至少每個縣市要做一座，各縣市自己處理自己的垃圾問題，這應該是很合理的。我覺得用這個邏輯由政府出面，政府來監督，這樣民眾就不會擔心，因為這是嫌惡設施，當要蓋的時候，就會有很多聲音，民眾因為不瞭解，所以會抗爭，導致很多事情沒有辦法推動，我請環境部把這個責任扛起來，讓這個事情可以好好處理，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後一個問題，我要為地方發聲，苗栗縣有10個爭取廢棄物處理的重大計畫，待會資料我會給部長，請部長多多協助，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：OK。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝邱鎮軍委員的發言，謝謝部長的回應。","下一位請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"153678","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153678","tool":"pyannote","id":"153678-pyannote"},"job_id":"WZI0TpXCZdsNgtQB","queued_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{\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 76.907, \"end\": 101.939, \"text\": \"報告委員 這個目前還是由碳費審議委員會他們正在制定費率當中那他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布對 因為我這樣講根據我們碳權專家臺北大學的李建明教授的分析如果碳費按照每噸300元的課徵將對部分產業衝擊是非常的巨大那我在這邊有一張表請部長看一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 76.907, \"end\": 77.007, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 77.007, \"end\": 77.467, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 77.467, \"end\": 77.648, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 77.648, \"end\": 77.928, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 77.928, \"end\": 78.048, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 78.048, \"end\": 78.208, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"碳\", \"start\": 78.208, \"end\": 78.788, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 78.788, \"end\": 79.568, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"億\"}]}, {\"start\": 149.008, \"end\": 167.567, \"text\": \"請問部長這樣的費率您認為這樣的對於我們的企業它真的可以承受嗎?報告委這個要算這個碳費這是一個很複雜的算法很多人不懂所以我必須說這個表格是計算太過簡化了事實上我們必須考慮到一個產業他的自主減碳的計畫\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 149.008, \"end\": 149.548, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 149.548, \"end\": 149.909, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 149.909, \"end\": 150.469, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 150.469, \"end\": 151.07, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 151.07, \"end\": 151.25, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 151.25, \"end\": 152.271, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 152.271, \"end\": 152.471, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 152.471, \"end\": 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0.857}, {\"word\": \"圾\", \"start\": 716.184, \"end\": 716.304, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 716.304, \"end\": 717.524, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 717.524, \"end\": 717.644, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 717.644, \"end\": 717.825, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 717.825, \"end\": 717.985, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 717.985, \"end\": 718.105, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 718.105, \"end\": 719.405, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 719.405, \"end\": 719.525, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 719.525, \"end\": 719.825, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 719.825, \"end\": 720.966, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"邏\"}, {\"word\": \"輯\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 720.966, \"end\": 721.146, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 721.146, \"end\": 721.306, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 721.306, \"end\": 721.446, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 721.446, \"end\": 721.966, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 721.966, \"end\": 722.086, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 722.086, \"end\": 722.326, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 722.326, \"end\": 722.467, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 722.467, \"end\": 722.927, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 722.927, \"end\": 723.487, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 723.487, \"end\": 723.607, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 723.607, \"end\": 724.107, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 724.107, \"end\": 724.287, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 724.287, \"end\": 725.088, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 725.088, \"end\": 725.248, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 725.248, \"end\": 725.768, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 725.768, \"end\": 725.868, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 725.868, \"end\": 726.288, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 726.288, \"end\": 726.368, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"閒\"}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 726.368, \"end\": 726.428, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 726.428, \"end\": 726.448, \"score\": 0.434}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 728.169, \"end\": 728.189, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,134 --> 00:00:29,508\n好主席好我們有請我們彭部長請彭部長邱委員早部長你好你是第二任的環境部長也是執行我們這次進行轉型碳費徵收的政策的一個部長所以產業在產業界\n\n2\n00:00:32,076 --> 00:00:39,695\n大家對你都有這個碳焦慮害怕你碳費定價真的從300元開始收取影響這個產業的生存\n\n3\n00:00:43,581 --> 00:01:01,217\n那還好本席看到部長已經公開表示希望一開始不要給企業太大的壓力那未來費率會斜率向上分階段調高費率本席非常肯定部長的這個務實的一個態度那麼\n\n4\n00:01:02,398 --> 00:01:15,453\n第4次的碳費審議會暫定在7月5日召開在這之前我還是要為產業請命就請教部長,碳費是目前方向是一公噸是要收300元嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:16,907 --> 00:01:41,939\n報告委員這個目前還是由碳費審議委員會他們正在制定費率當中那他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布對因為我這樣講根據我們碳權專家臺北大學的李建明教授的分析如果碳費按照每噸300元的課徵將對部分產業衝擊是非常的巨大那我在這邊有一張表請部長看一下\n\n6\n00:01:43,120 --> 00:02:00,973\n那是針對國內主要的鋼鐵及石化業以去年的碳排量來計算中鋼公司一年碳排量2200萬公噸就是要繳交60億的碳費那遠遠超出他稅前的盈餘46億元也就是說中鋼還沒有繳稅就先虧14億\n\n7\n00:02:05,717 --> 00:02:24,185\n第二,我們看中時化原本稅前就虧損5.9億那再繳5億碳費他就加倍他就會虧到10億元左右那台塑則要繳交高達98億元的碳費占去稅前盈利的17%整體徵收的規模可能達到五六百億\n\n8\n00:02:29,008 --> 00:02:47,567\n請問部長這樣的費率您認為這樣的對於我們的企業它真的可以承受嗎?報告委這個要算這個碳費這是一個很複雜的算法很多人不懂所以我必須說這個表格是計算太過簡化了事實上我們必須考慮到一個產業他的自主減碳的計畫\n\n9\n00:02:48,388 --> 00:03:11,473\n所以如果依照我們現在來看這幾個企業像中鋼他就做得非常好如果依照他有自主減量計劃甚至也要考慮到他的高碳洩漏係數的話其實他不用講那麼高啦但是這個還是要碳費省營會決定就是說碳費不是只用一個碳費他的排碳量多少乘以一個價錢出來的結果因為我們擔心的是這樣就是說如果企業的這個部分如果真的這樣收的時候那\n\n10\n00:03:12,293 --> 00:03:35,388\n我們也要全門考量不要影響到民生因為有很多東西它是相關連帶的它如果企業是這樣它成本增加它就會把物價調漲那調漲對我們老百姓直接的影響這個可能部長也要把它考慮進去那當然部長您認為我們的碳費現在應該多少錢才合理\n\n11\n00:03:36,398 --> 00:04:05,077\n如果依照基本上還是要衡量這個是要碳費審議委員會來決定但是以目前全世界必須有幾個考量例如說像歐盟他的碳交易大概是70塊歐元現在的價格是70塊歐元左右然後在有些國家大概都是預期未來到2030到2040年可能會到100到200塊美元所以其實這些企業應該要現在要趕快想辦法不是說我不准收這個費用大家要來想辦法\n\n12\n00:04:06,138 --> 00:04:09,181\n我們仔細看了一下其實歐盟他是超出標準才瞌睡\n\n13\n00:04:27,698 --> 00:04:47,567\n所以他超出標準他們的科稅標準是針對每個產業前10%的這個企業的平均碳排量所以稅率看起來很高實際上卻只徵收超標的部分幾乎有九成是不用收費的而且用不到的碳排量還可以當作這個碳權的一個交易\n\n14\n00:04:48,928 --> 00:05:09,608\n我們再看新加坡他初期的碳費只收五塊錢美金日本也是收兩塊兩塊錢美金所以我們的十塊錢美金就是憑良心講我們這樣看起來是非常的高我在這邊建議我也聽到很多企業建議希望在這個費率希望能定在一百元以內\n\n15\n00:05:10,929 --> 00:05:36,465\n你認為有可能嗎?報告委員這些國家你列的這幾個國家你跟你前面那一張碳廢的是衝突的所以我建議說我們一起可以把這個如何去計算那個方式搞懂因為很多的媒體他不是很懂啦所以搞懂是最主要的那第二件事情呢基本上的這些國家都有碳交易跟碳廢或碳稅碳稅的兩個制度並行啦那我未來呢這個環境部也會考量說\n\n16\n00:05:37,165 --> 00:05:37,305\n拜訪委員\n\n17\n00:05:55,794 --> 00:06:21,156\n五百多家企業裡面前面大概三四百家高科技業界他們都準備好了他們還在罵我們說收那麼低對他們國際競爭力不利所以希望高那至於說比較困難的這個就是我們要跟經濟部一起來合作來能夠幫他們的忙順利的轉型所以不是說我們全部調低就好那我們也必須考量到我們國內的這個CPI這個不要讓這個綠色通膨快速的發生起來\n\n18\n00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:41,100\n但是綠色通膨呢依照全世界的這個情況我們還是必須要考量要淨零碳排一定要有一些不一樣還有企業也非常關心我們自主減量的這個優惠的費率那根據環境部的規劃企業適用於優惠的費率未來10年必須達到削減排飯量就是說鋼鐵業是25%大概25%水泥業是22.3%其他的行業42%也就是說\n\n19\n00:06:47,782 --> 00:07:16,449\n攀排量每年必須達到4.2左右才可以享有優惠的費率而這個我認為這個目標我跟部長講這個有點高因為我們目前以我們臺灣做得比較好的幾個企業比如說日月光控股臺達電還有聯電及台塑都拿到雙A級的但是4月初這個週刊的揭露即使是台塑集團這種減碳的策略都已經\n\n20\n00:07:17,469 --> 00:07:28,254\n都已經通過CDP的評鑑的資優生也達不到10年42%的碳排的一個目標那我認為這個標準有點高啦既然剛開始\n\n21\n00:07:30,017 --> 00:07:48,992\n我們是要鼓勵大家來做這件事情我認為我們部裡面有必要去調整這個優惠的一個門檻讓我們的企業大家都能夠更樂意來做這件事情委員的建議其實我們的概念還是一樣一開始低然後慢慢逐步的會升高這個是我們的目前的共識\n\n22\n00:07:49,933 --> 00:08:12,982\n當然我們就是希望這個碳費的徵收也好我們進行減碳是國際產業的發展趨勢那當然徵收碳費的目的是要減碳不是賺錢沒錯這個希望政府能夠循序漸進然後慢慢的邁向這個經營轉型不要一下子讓企業生存不下去這也不是我們樂見的那另外第二個\n\n23\n00:08:15,043 --> 00:08:25,430\n我們最近6年來我們家庭廢棄物的事業廢棄物這個量產生大幅度攀升了112年已經分別達到1158萬公噸即2004萬公噸那並且因為這個政府的事業廢棄物處理的這個狀況包括南部最終的處理廠的\n\n24\n00:08:36,497 --> 00:08:42,845\n撤銷以及各地方失業廢棄物專門處理設施這個生設的不順利那112年已經有高達171.5萬工隊的失業廢棄物進到我們政府的焚化爐裡面這個是非常嚴重因為我們計算的話是大概是\n\n25\n00:08:54,821 --> 00:08:55,401\n接下來我們看這張照片\n\n26\n00:09:13,787 --> 00:09:26,735\n都是各縣市垃圾處理受到的失業廢棄物的排擠．無法順利處理而暫置的一個狀況目前包括桃園新竹南投等地方的垃圾堆積如山其中桃園市龍潭區\n\n27\n00:09:28,703 --> 00:09:56,628\n這個電子壺垃圾掩埋場已經堆至上百萬公噸的這個垃圾甚至已超過防護欄這恐有它這個坍塌的危險另外也產生不肖業者會在中間處理業者這個亂到的一個情形部長知不知道現在政府焚化爐處理失業廢棄物一公噸多少錢一百不好意思署長失業廢棄物失業廢棄物大概一萬塊上下\n\n28\n00:09:58,203 --> 00:10:15,817\n地方政府欸?對,就焚化爐是。焚化爐沒有吧?地方政府。您是說進地方政府焚化爐?進地方政府焚化爐是一萬塊。上下。那我知道的齁,有些這個失業廢棄物的這個處理商、清運商啦,他說的費用可能不止。\n\n29\n00:10:16,597 --> 00:10:34,264\n可能不只這樣子,那他進到,等於是他利用,因為他如果進一般民間的可能更高,可能更高。所以我要講的重點是,我們不能讓這些業者,他用我們供的焚化爐,讓他們來得到他們的那個獲利,這個是暴利。\n\n30\n00:10:36,525 --> 00:11:00,160\n那當然我們也要讓我們這些業者有地方去啊那當然我們知道剛剛有提到我剛剛也看到好幾個委員有提到就在我們現在垃圾事業廢棄物處理的部分根本沒有地方去根本沒有地方去這個是一個非常嚴重的問題搞到後面這邊也不能收那邊也不能收的時候就是亂到就是亂到嘛那部長對於這個有沒有什麼想法\n\n31\n00:11:00,851 --> 00:11:13,921\n我們現在已經有方案來推動這件事情了是什麼方式就是行政院已經核定了方案那就是有環境部還有經濟部跟國發費那現在有推動12座設施那我還給部長建議啦這是\n\n32\n00:11:19,125 --> 00:11:42,478\n有很多的政策其實我們知道垃圾沒辦法處理可是到了地方當要設置的時候就是因為地方的聲音不同就退了那一般民間業者其實也是碰到這樣的問題我在這邊建議環境部應該要拿出政府的一個魄力該做就是要做你不然到時候這些東西要去哪裡呢\n\n33\n00:11:43,178 --> 00:12:06,448\n所以我認為各縣市他都應該要有一個責任區甚至於我認為部長你應該給各縣市鼓勵獎勵甚至要求各縣市至少要做一做各縣市處理自己自己的垃圾的問題應該是很合理的我覺得這個用這個邏輯請政府出面然後政府來監督就不會擔心因為這個往往這種東西要這是閒物設施\n\n34\n00:12:08,169 --> 00:12:08,189\n謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10134\t29508\t好主席好我們有請我們彭部長請彭部長邱委員早部長你好你是第二任的環境部長也是執行我們這次進行轉型碳費徵收的政策的一個部長所以產業在產業界\n32076\t39695\t大家對你都有這個碳焦慮害怕你碳費定價真的從300元開始收取影響這個產業的生存\n43581\t61217\t那還好本席看到部長已經公開表示希望一開始不要給企業太大的壓力那未來費率會斜率向上分階段調高費率本席非常肯定部長的這個務實的一個態度那麼\n62398\t75453\t第4次的碳費審議會暫定在7月5日召開在這之前我還是要為產業請命就請教部長,碳費是目前方向是一公噸是要收300元嗎?\n76907\t101939\t報告委員 這個目前還是由碳費審議委員會他們正在制定費率當中那他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布對 因為我這樣講根據我們碳權專家臺北大學的李建明教授的分析如果碳費按照每噸300元的課徵將對部分產業衝擊是非常的巨大那我在這邊有一張表請部長看一下\n103120\t120973\t那是針對國內主要的鋼鐵及石化業以去年的碳排量來計算中鋼公司一年碳排量2200萬公噸就是要繳交60億的碳費那遠遠超出他稅前的盈餘46億元也就是說中鋼還沒有繳稅就先虧14億\n125717\t144185\t第二,我們看中時化原本稅前就虧損5.9億那再繳5億碳費他就加倍他就會虧到10億元左右那台塑則要繳交高達98億元的碳費占去稅前盈利的17%整體徵收的規模可能達到五六百億\n149008\t167567\t請問部長這樣的費率您認為這樣的對於我們的企業它真的可以承受嗎?報告委這個要算這個碳費這是一個很複雜的算法很多人不懂所以我必須說這個表格是計算太過簡化了事實上我們必須考慮到一個產業他的自主減碳的計畫\n168388\t191473\t所以如果依照我們現在來看這幾個企業像中鋼他就做得非常好如果依照他有自主減量計劃甚至也要考慮到他的高碳洩漏係數的話其實他不用講那麼高啦但是這個還是要碳費省營會決定就是說碳費不是只用一個碳費他的排碳量多少乘以一個價錢出來的結果因為我們擔心的是這樣就是說如果企業的這個部分如果真的這樣收的時候那\n192293\t215388\t我們也要全門考量不要影響到民生因為有很多東西它是相關連帶的它如果企業是這樣它成本增加它就會把物價調漲那調漲對我們老百姓直接的影響這個可能部長也要把它考慮進去那當然部長您認為我們的碳費現在應該多少錢才合理\n216398\t245077\t如果依照基本上還是要衡量這個是要碳費審議委員會來決定但是以目前全世界必須有幾個考量例如說像歐盟他的碳交易大概是70塊歐元現在的價格是70塊歐元左右然後在有些國家大概都是預期未來到2030到2040年可能會到100到200塊美元所以其實這些企業應該要現在要趕快想辦法不是說我不准收這個費用大家要來想辦法\n246138\t249181\t我們仔細看了一下其實歐盟他是超出標準才瞌睡\n267698\t287567\t所以他超出標準他們的科稅標準是針對每個產業前10%的這個企業的平均碳排量所以稅率看起來很高實際上卻只徵收超標的部分幾乎有九成是不用收費的而且用不到的碳排量還可以當作這個碳權的一個交易\n288928\t309608\t我們再看新加坡他初期的碳費只收五塊錢美金日本也是收兩塊兩塊錢美金所以我們的十塊錢美金就是憑良心講我們這樣看起來是非常的高我在這邊建議我也聽到很多企業建議希望在這個費率希望能定在一百元以內\n310929\t336465\t你認為有可能嗎?報告委員這些國家你列的這幾個國家你跟你前面那一張碳廢的是衝突的所以我建議說我們一起可以把這個如何去計算那個方式搞懂因為很多的媒體他不是很懂啦所以搞懂是最主要的那第二件事情呢基本上的這些國家都有碳交易跟碳廢或碳稅碳稅的兩個制度並行啦那我未來呢這個環境部也會考量說\n337165\t337305\t拜訪委員\n355794\t381156\t五百多家企業裡面前面大概三四百家高科技業界他們都準備好了他們還在罵我們說收那麼低對他們國際競爭力不利所以希望高那至於說比較困難的這個就是我們要跟經濟部一起來合作來能夠幫他們的忙順利的轉型所以不是說我們全部調低就好那我們也必須考量到我們國內的這個CPI這個不要讓這個綠色通膨快速的發生起來\n381756\t401100\t但是綠色通膨呢依照全世界的這個情況我們還是必須要考量要淨零碳排一定要有一些不一樣還有企業也非常關心我們自主減量的這個優惠的費率那根據環境部的規劃企業適用於優惠的費率未來10年必須達到削減排飯量就是說鋼鐵業是25%大概25%水泥業是22.3%其他的行業42%也就是說\n407782\t436449\t攀排量每年必須達到4.2左右才可以享有優惠的費率而這個我認為這個目標我跟部長講這個有點高因為我們目前以我們臺灣做得比較好的幾個企業比如說日月光控股臺達電還有聯電及台塑都拿到雙A級的但是4月初這個週刊的揭露即使是台塑集團這種減碳的策略都已經\n437469\t448254\t都已經通過CDP的評鑑的資優生也達不到10年42%的碳排的一個目標那我認為這個標準有點高啦既然剛開始\n450017\t468992\t我們是要鼓勵大家來做這件事情我認為我們部裡面有必要去調整這個優惠的一個門檻讓我們的企業大家都能夠更樂意來做這件事情委員的建議其實我們的概念還是一樣一開始低然後慢慢逐步的會升高這個是我們的目前的共識\n469933\t492982\t當然我們就是希望這個碳費的徵收也好我們進行減碳是國際產業的發展趨勢那當然徵收碳費的目的是要減碳不是賺錢沒錯這個希望政府能夠循序漸進然後慢慢的邁向這個經營轉型不要一下子讓企業生存不下去這也不是我們樂見的那另外第二個\n495043\t505430\t我們最近6年來我們家庭廢棄物的事業廢棄物這個量產生大幅度攀升了112年已經分別達到1158萬公噸即2004萬公噸那並且因為這個政府的事業廢棄物處理的這個狀況包括南部最終的處理廠的\n516497\t522845\t撤銷以及各地方失業廢棄物專門處理設施這個生設的不順利那112年已經有高達171.5萬工隊的失業廢棄物進到我們政府的焚化爐裡面這個是非常嚴重因為我們計算的話是大概是\n534821\t535401\t接下來我們看這張照片\n553787\t566735\t都是各縣市垃圾處理受到的失業廢棄物的排擠．無法順利處理而暫置的一個狀況目前包括桃園新竹南投等地方的垃圾堆積如山其中桃園市龍潭區\n568703\t596628\t這個電子壺垃圾掩埋場已經堆至上百萬公噸的這個垃圾甚至已超過防護欄這恐有它這個坍塌的危險另外也產生不肖業者會在中間處理業者這個亂到的一個情形部長知不知道現在政府焚化爐處理失業廢棄物一公噸多少錢一百不好意思署長失業廢棄物失業廢棄物大概一萬塊上下\n598203\t615817\t地方政府欸?對,就焚化爐是。焚化爐沒有吧?地方政府。您是說進地方政府焚化爐?進地方政府焚化爐是一萬塊。上下。那我知道的齁,有些這個失業廢棄物的這個處理商、清運商啦,他說的費用可能不止。\n616597\t634264\t可能不只這樣子,那他進到,等於是他利用,因為他如果進一般民間的可能更高,可能更高。所以我要講的重點是,我們不能讓這些業者,他用我們供的焚化爐,讓他們來得到他們的那個獲利,這個是暴利。\n636525\t660160\t那當然我們也要讓我們這些業者有地方去啊那當然我們知道剛剛有提到我剛剛也看到好幾個委員有提到就在我們現在垃圾事業廢棄物處理的部分根本沒有地方去根本沒有地方去這個是一個非常嚴重的問題搞到後面這邊也不能收那邊也不能收的時候就是亂到就是亂到嘛那部長對於這個有沒有什麼想法\n660851\t673921\t我們現在已經有方案來推動這件事情了是什麼方式就是行政院已經核定了方案那就是有環境部還有經濟部跟國發費那現在有推動12座設施那我還給部長建議啦這是\n679125\t702478\t有很多的政策其實我們知道垃圾沒辦法處理可是到了地方當要設置的時候就是因為地方的聲音不同就退了那一般民間業者其實也是碰到這樣的問題我在這邊建議環境部應該要拿出政府的一個魄力該做就是要做你不然到時候這些東西要去哪裡呢\n703178\t726448\t所以我認為各縣市他都應該要有一個責任區甚至於我認為部長你應該給各縣市鼓勵獎勵甚至要求各縣市至少要做一做各縣市處理自己自己的垃圾的問題應該是很合理的我覺得這個用這個邏輯請政府出面然後政府來監督就不會擔心因為這個往往這種東西要這是閒物設施\n728169\t728189\t謝謝委員謝謝\n","txt":"好主席好我們有請我們彭部長請彭部長邱委員早部長你好你是第二任的環境部長也是執行我們這次進行轉型碳費徵收的政策的一個部長所以產業在產業界\n大家對你都有這個碳焦慮害怕你碳費定價真的從300元開始收取影響這個產業的生存\n那還好本席看到部長已經公開表示希望一開始不要給企業太大的壓力那未來費率會斜率向上分階段調高費率本席非常肯定部長的這個務實的一個態度那麼\n第4次的碳費審議會暫定在7月5日召開在這之前我還是要為產業請命就請教部長,碳費是目前方向是一公噸是要收300元嗎?\n報告委員 這個目前還是由碳費審議委員會他們正在制定費率當中那他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布對 因為我這樣講根據我們碳權專家臺北大學的李建明教授的分析如果碳費按照每噸300元的課徵將對部分產業衝擊是非常的巨大那我在這邊有一張表請部長看一下\n那是針對國內主要的鋼鐵及石化業以去年的碳排量來計算中鋼公司一年碳排量2200萬公噸就是要繳交60億的碳費那遠遠超出他稅前的盈餘46億元也就是說中鋼還沒有繳稅就先虧14億\n第二,我們看中時化原本稅前就虧損5.9億那再繳5億碳費他就加倍他就會虧到10億元左右那台塑則要繳交高達98億元的碳費占去稅前盈利的17%整體徵收的規模可能達到五六百億\n請問部長這樣的費率您認為這樣的對於我們的企業它真的可以承受嗎?報告委這個要算這個碳費這是一個很複雜的算法很多人不懂所以我必須說這個表格是計算太過簡化了事實上我們必須考慮到一個產業他的自主減碳的計畫\n所以如果依照我們現在來看這幾個企業像中鋼他就做得非常好如果依照他有自主減量計劃甚至也要考慮到他的高碳洩漏係數的話其實他不用講那麼高啦但是這個還是要碳費省營會決定就是說碳費不是只用一個碳費他的排碳量多少乘以一個價錢出來的結果因為我們擔心的是這樣就是說如果企業的這個部分如果真的這樣收的時候那\n我們也要全門考量不要影響到民生因為有很多東西它是相關連帶的它如果企業是這樣它成本增加它就會把物價調漲那調漲對我們老百姓直接的影響這個可能部長也要把它考慮進去那當然部長您認為我們的碳費現在應該多少錢才合理\n如果依照基本上還是要衡量這個是要碳費審議委員會來決定但是以目前全世界必須有幾個考量例如說像歐盟他的碳交易大概是70塊歐元現在的價格是70塊歐元左右然後在有些國家大概都是預期未來到2030到2040年可能會到100到200塊美元所以其實這些企業應該要現在要趕快想辦法不是說我不准收這個費用大家要來想辦法\n我們仔細看了一下其實歐盟他是超出標準才瞌睡\n所以他超出標準他們的科稅標準是針對每個產業前10%的這個企業的平均碳排量所以稅率看起來很高實際上卻只徵收超標的部分幾乎有九成是不用收費的而且用不到的碳排量還可以當作這個碳權的一個交易\n我們再看新加坡他初期的碳費只收五塊錢美金日本也是收兩塊兩塊錢美金所以我們的十塊錢美金就是憑良心講我們這樣看起來是非常的高我在這邊建議我也聽到很多企業建議希望在這個費率希望能定在一百元以內\n你認為有可能嗎?報告委員這些國家你列的這幾個國家你跟你前面那一張碳廢的是衝突的所以我建議說我們一起可以把這個如何去計算那個方式搞懂因為很多的媒體他不是很懂啦所以搞懂是最主要的那第二件事情呢基本上的這些國家都有碳交易跟碳廢或碳稅碳稅的兩個制度並行啦那我未來呢這個環境部也會考量說\n拜訪委員\n五百多家企業裡面前面大概三四百家高科技業界他們都準備好了他們還在罵我們說收那麼低對他們國際競爭力不利所以希望高那至於說比較困難的這個就是我們要跟經濟部一起來合作來能夠幫他們的忙順利的轉型所以不是說我們全部調低就好那我們也必須考量到我們國內的這個CPI這個不要讓這個綠色通膨快速的發生起來\n但是綠色通膨呢依照全世界的這個情況我們還是必須要考量要淨零碳排一定要有一些不一樣還有企業也非常關心我們自主減量的這個優惠的費率那根據環境部的規劃企業適用於優惠的費率未來10年必須達到削減排飯量就是說鋼鐵業是25%大概25%水泥業是22.3%其他的行業42%也就是說\n攀排量每年必須達到4.2左右才可以享有優惠的費率而這個我認為這個目標我跟部長講這個有點高因為我們目前以我們臺灣做得比較好的幾個企業比如說日月光控股臺達電還有聯電及台塑都拿到雙A級的但是4月初這個週刊的揭露即使是台塑集團這種減碳的策略都已經\n都已經通過CDP的評鑑的資優生也達不到10年42%的碳排的一個目標那我認為這個標準有點高啦既然剛開始\n我們是要鼓勵大家來做這件事情我認為我們部裡面有必要去調整這個優惠的一個門檻讓我們的企業大家都能夠更樂意來做這件事情委員的建議其實我們的概念還是一樣一開始低然後慢慢逐步的會升高這個是我們的目前的共識\n當然我們就是希望這個碳費的徵收也好我們進行減碳是國際產業的發展趨勢那當然徵收碳費的目的是要減碳不是賺錢沒錯這個希望政府能夠循序漸進然後慢慢的邁向這個經營轉型不要一下子讓企業生存不下去這也不是我們樂見的那另外第二個\n我們最近6年來我們家庭廢棄物的事業廢棄物這個量產生大幅度攀升了112年已經分別達到1158萬公噸即2004萬公噸那並且因為這個政府的事業廢棄物處理的這個狀況包括南部最終的處理廠的\n撤銷以及各地方失業廢棄物專門處理設施這個生設的不順利那112年已經有高達171.5萬工隊的失業廢棄物進到我們政府的焚化爐裡面這個是非常嚴重因為我們計算的話是大概是\n接下來我們看這張照片\n都是各縣市垃圾處理受到的失業廢棄物的排擠．無法順利處理而暫置的一個狀況目前包括桃園新竹南投等地方的垃圾堆積如山其中桃園市龍潭區\n這個電子壺垃圾掩埋場已經堆至上百萬公噸的這個垃圾甚至已超過防護欄這恐有它這個坍塌的危險另外也產生不肖業者會在中間處理業者這個亂到的一個情形部長知不知道現在政府焚化爐處理失業廢棄物一公噸多少錢一百不好意思署長失業廢棄物失業廢棄物大概一萬塊上下\n地方政府欸?對,就焚化爐是。焚化爐沒有吧?地方政府。您是說進地方政府焚化爐?進地方政府焚化爐是一萬塊。上下。那我知道的齁,有些這個失業廢棄物的這個處理商、清運商啦,他說的費用可能不止。\n可能不只這樣子,那他進到,等於是他利用,因為他如果進一般民間的可能更高,可能更高。所以我要講的重點是,我們不能讓這些業者,他用我們供的焚化爐,讓他們來得到他們的那個獲利,這個是暴利。\n那當然我們也要讓我們這些業者有地方去啊那當然我們知道剛剛有提到我剛剛也看到好幾個委員有提到就在我們現在垃圾事業廢棄物處理的部分根本沒有地方去根本沒有地方去這個是一個非常嚴重的問題搞到後面這邊也不能收那邊也不能收的時候就是亂到就是亂到嘛那部長對於這個有沒有什麼想法\n我們現在已經有方案來推動這件事情了是什麼方式就是行政院已經核定了方案那就是有環境部還有經濟部跟國發費那現在有推動12座設施那我還給部長建議啦這是\n有很多的政策其實我們知道垃圾沒辦法處理可是到了地方當要設置的時候就是因為地方的聲音不同就退了那一般民間業者其實也是碰到這樣的問題我在這邊建議環境部應該要拿出政府的一個魄力該做就是要做你不然到時候這些東西要去哪裡呢\n所以我認為各縣市他都應該要有一個責任區甚至於我認為部長你應該給各縣市鼓勵獎勵甚至要求各縣市至少要做一做各縣市處理自己自己的垃圾的問題應該是很合理的我覺得這個用這個邏輯請政府出面然後政府來監督就不會擔心因為這個往往這種東西要這是閒物設施\n謝謝委員謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.134 --> 00:29.508\n好主席好我們有請我們彭部長請彭部長邱委員早部長你好你是第二任的環境部長也是執行我們這次進行轉型碳費徵收的政策的一個部長所以產業在產業界\n\n00:32.076 --> 00:39.695\n大家對你都有這個碳焦慮害怕你碳費定價真的從300元開始收取影響這個產業的生存\n\n00:43.581 --> 01:01.217\n那還好本席看到部長已經公開表示希望一開始不要給企業太大的壓力那未來費率會斜率向上分階段調高費率本席非常肯定部長的這個務實的一個態度那麼\n\n01:02.398 --> 01:15.453\n第4次的碳費審議會暫定在7月5日召開在這之前我還是要為產業請命就請教部長,碳費是目前方向是一公噸是要收300元嗎?\n\n01:16.907 --> 01:41.939\n報告委員這個目前還是由碳費審議委員會他們正在制定費率當中那他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布對因為我這樣講根據我們碳權專家臺北大學的李建明教授的分析如果碳費按照每噸300元的課徵將對部分產業衝擊是非常的巨大那我在這邊有一張表請部長看一下\n\n01:43.120 --> 02:00.973\n那是針對國內主要的鋼鐵及石化業以去年的碳排量來計算中鋼公司一年碳排量2200萬公噸就是要繳交60億的碳費那遠遠超出他稅前的盈餘46億元也就是說中鋼還沒有繳稅就先虧14億\n\n02:05.717 --> 02:24.185\n第二,我們看中時化原本稅前就虧損5.9億那再繳5億碳費他就加倍他就會虧到10億元左右那台塑則要繳交高達98億元的碳費占去稅前盈利的17%整體徵收的規模可能達到五六百億\n\n02:29.008 --> 02:47.567\n請問部長這樣的費率您認為這樣的對於我們的企業它真的可以承受嗎?報告委這個要算這個碳費這是一個很複雜的算法很多人不懂所以我必須說這個表格是計算太過簡化了事實上我們必須考慮到一個產業他的自主減碳的計畫\n\n02:48.388 --> 03:11.473\n所以如果依照我們現在來看這幾個企業像中鋼他就做得非常好如果依照他有自主減量計劃甚至也要考慮到他的高碳洩漏係數的話其實他不用講那麼高啦但是這個還是要碳費省營會決定就是說碳費不是只用一個碳費他的排碳量多少乘以一個價錢出來的結果因為我們擔心的是這樣就是說如果企業的這個部分如果真的這樣收的時候那\n\n03:12.293 --> 03:35.388\n我們也要全門考量不要影響到民生因為有很多東西它是相關連帶的它如果企業是這樣它成本增加它就會把物價調漲那調漲對我們老百姓直接的影響這個可能部長也要把它考慮進去那當然部長您認為我們的碳費現在應該多少錢才合理\n\n03:36.398 --> 04:05.077\n如果依照基本上還是要衡量這個是要碳費審議委員會來決定但是以目前全世界必須有幾個考量例如說像歐盟他的碳交易大概是70塊歐元現在的價格是70塊歐元左右然後在有些國家大概都是預期未來到2030到2040年可能會到100到200塊美元所以其實這些企業應該要現在要趕快想辦法不是說我不准收這個費用大家要來想辦法\n\n04:06.138 --> 04:09.181\n我們仔細看了一下其實歐盟他是超出標準才瞌睡\n\n04:27.698 --> 04:47.567\n所以他超出標準他們的科稅標準是針對每個產業前10%的這個企業的平均碳排量所以稅率看起來很高實際上卻只徵收超標的部分幾乎有九成是不用收費的而且用不到的碳排量還可以當作這個碳權的一個交易\n\n04:48.928 --> 05:09.608\n我們再看新加坡他初期的碳費只收五塊錢美金日本也是收兩塊兩塊錢美金所以我們的十塊錢美金就是憑良心講我們這樣看起來是非常的高我在這邊建議我也聽到很多企業建議希望在這個費率希望能定在一百元以內\n\n05:10.929 --> 05:36.465\n你認為有可能嗎?報告委員這些國家你列的這幾個國家你跟你前面那一張碳廢的是衝突的所以我建議說我們一起可以把這個如何去計算那個方式搞懂因為很多的媒體他不是很懂啦所以搞懂是最主要的那第二件事情呢基本上的這些國家都有碳交易跟碳廢或碳稅碳稅的兩個制度並行啦那我未來呢這個環境部也會考量說\n\n05:37.165 --> 05:37.305\n拜訪委員\n\n05:55.794 --> 06:21.156\n五百多家企業裡面前面大概三四百家高科技業界他們都準備好了他們還在罵我們說收那麼低對他們國際競爭力不利所以希望高那至於說比較困難的這個就是我們要跟經濟部一起來合作來能夠幫他們的忙順利的轉型所以不是說我們全部調低就好那我們也必須考量到我們國內的這個CPI這個不要讓這個綠色通膨快速的發生起來\n\n06:21.756 --> 06:41.100\n但是綠色通膨呢依照全世界的這個情況我們還是必須要考量要淨零碳排一定要有一些不一樣還有企業也非常關心我們自主減量的這個優惠的費率那根據環境部的規劃企業適用於優惠的費率未來10年必須達到削減排飯量就是說鋼鐵業是25%大概25%水泥業是22.3%其他的行業42%也就是說\n\n06:47.782 --> 07:16.449\n攀排量每年必須達到4.2左右才可以享有優惠的費率而這個我認為這個目標我跟部長講這個有點高因為我們目前以我們臺灣做得比較好的幾個企業比如說日月光控股臺達電還有聯電及台塑都拿到雙A級的但是4月初這個週刊的揭露即使是台塑集團這種減碳的策略都已經\n\n07:17.469 --> 07:28.254\n都已經通過CDP的評鑑的資優生也達不到10年42%的碳排的一個目標那我認為這個標準有點高啦既然剛開始\n\n07:30.017 --> 07:48.992\n我們是要鼓勵大家來做這件事情我認為我們部裡面有必要去調整這個優惠的一個門檻讓我們的企業大家都能夠更樂意來做這件事情委員的建議其實我們的概念還是一樣一開始低然後慢慢逐步的會升高這個是我們的目前的共識\n\n07:49.933 --> 08:12.982\n當然我們就是希望這個碳費的徵收也好我們進行減碳是國際產業的發展趨勢那當然徵收碳費的目的是要減碳不是賺錢沒錯這個希望政府能夠循序漸進然後慢慢的邁向這個經營轉型不要一下子讓企業生存不下去這也不是我們樂見的那另外第二個\n\n08:15.043 --> 08:25.430\n我們最近6年來我們家庭廢棄物的事業廢棄物這個量產生大幅度攀升了112年已經分別達到1158萬公噸即2004萬公噸那並且因為這個政府的事業廢棄物處理的這個狀況包括南部最終的處理廠的\n\n08:36.497 --> 08:42.845\n撤銷以及各地方失業廢棄物專門處理設施這個生設的不順利那112年已經有高達171.5萬工隊的失業廢棄物進到我們政府的焚化爐裡面這個是非常嚴重因為我們計算的話是大概是\n\n08:54.821 --> 08:55.401\n接下來我們看這張照片\n\n09:13.787 --> 09:26.735\n都是各縣市垃圾處理受到的失業廢棄物的排擠．無法順利處理而暫置的一個狀況目前包括桃園新竹南投等地方的垃圾堆積如山其中桃園市龍潭區\n\n09:28.703 --> 09:56.628\n這個電子壺垃圾掩埋場已經堆至上百萬公噸的這個垃圾甚至已超過防護欄這恐有它這個坍塌的危險另外也產生不肖業者會在中間處理業者這個亂到的一個情形部長知不知道現在政府焚化爐處理失業廢棄物一公噸多少錢一百不好意思署長失業廢棄物失業廢棄物大概一萬塊上下\n\n09:58.203 --> 10:15.817\n地方政府欸?對,就焚化爐是。焚化爐沒有吧?地方政府。您是說進地方政府焚化爐?進地方政府焚化爐是一萬塊。上下。那我知道的齁,有些這個失業廢棄物的這個處理商、清運商啦,他說的費用可能不止。\n\n10:16.597 --> 10:34.264\n可能不只這樣子,那他進到,等於是他利用,因為他如果進一般民間的可能更高,可能更高。所以我要講的重點是,我們不能讓這些業者,他用我們供的焚化爐,讓他們來得到他們的那個獲利,這個是暴利。\n\n10:36.525 --> 11:00.160\n那當然我們也要讓我們這些業者有地方去啊那當然我們知道剛剛有提到我剛剛也看到好幾個委員有提到就在我們現在垃圾事業廢棄物處理的部分根本沒有地方去根本沒有地方去這個是一個非常嚴重的問題搞到後面這邊也不能收那邊也不能收的時候就是亂到就是亂到嘛那部長對於這個有沒有什麼想法\n\n11:00.851 --> 11:13.921\n我們現在已經有方案來推動這件事情了是什麼方式就是行政院已經核定了方案那就是有環境部還有經濟部跟國發費那現在有推動12座設施那我還給部長建議啦這是\n\n11:19.125 --> 11:42.478\n有很多的政策其實我們知道垃圾沒辦法處理可是到了地方當要設置的時候就是因為地方的聲音不同就退了那一般民間業者其實也是碰到這樣的問題我在這邊建議環境部應該要拿出政府的一個魄力該做就是要做你不然到時候這些東西要去哪裡呢\n\n11:43.178 --> 12:06.448\n所以我認為各縣市他都應該要有一個責任區甚至於我認為部長你應該給各縣市鼓勵獎勵甚至要求各縣市至少要做一做各縣市處理自己自己的垃圾的問題應該是很合理的我覺得這個用這個邏輯請政府出面然後政府來監督就不會擔心因為這個往往這種東西要這是閒物設施\n\n12:08.169 --> 12:08.189\n謝謝委員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.134,"end":29.508,"text":"好主席好我們有請我們彭部長請彭部長邱委員早部長你好你是第二任的環境部長也是執行我們這次進行轉型碳費徵收的政策的一個部長所以產業在產業界"},{"start":32.076,"end":39.695,"text":"大家對你都有這個碳焦慮害怕你碳費定價真的從300元開始收取影響這個產業的生存"},{"start":43.581,"end":61.217,"text":"那還好本席看到部長已經公開表示希望一開始不要給企業太大的壓力那未來費率會斜率向上分階段調高費率本席非常肯定部長的這個務實的一個態度那麼"},{"start":62.398,"end":75.453,"text":"第4次的碳費審議會暫定在7月5日召開在這之前我還是要為產業請命就請教部長,碳費是目前方向是一公噸是要收300元嗎?"},{"start":76.907,"end":101.939,"text":"報告委員 這個目前還是由碳費審議委員會他們正在制定費率當中那他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布對 因為我這樣講根據我們碳權專家臺北大學的李建明教授的分析如果碳費按照每噸300元的課徵將對部分產業衝擊是非常的巨大那我在這邊有一張表請部長看一下"},{"start":103.12,"end":120.973,"text":"那是針對國內主要的鋼鐵及石化業以去年的碳排量來計算中鋼公司一年碳排量2200萬公噸就是要繳交60億的碳費那遠遠超出他稅前的盈餘46億元也就是說中鋼還沒有繳稅就先虧14億"},{"start":125.717,"end":144.185,"text":"第二,我們看中時化原本稅前就虧損5.9億那再繳5億碳費他就加倍他就會虧到10億元左右那台塑則要繳交高達98億元的碳費占去稅前盈利的17%整體徵收的規模可能達到五六百億"},{"start":149.008,"end":167.567,"text":"請問部長這樣的費率您認為這樣的對於我們的企業它真的可以承受嗎?報告委這個要算這個碳費這是一個很複雜的算法很多人不懂所以我必須說這個表格是計算太過簡化了事實上我們必須考慮到一個產業他的自主減碳的計畫"},{"start":168.388,"end":191.473,"text":"所以如果依照我們現在來看這幾個企業像中鋼他就做得非常好如果依照他有自主減量計劃甚至也要考慮到他的高碳洩漏係數的話其實他不用講那麼高啦但是這個還是要碳費省營會決定就是說碳費不是只用一個碳費他的排碳量多少乘以一個價錢出來的結果因為我們擔心的是這樣就是說如果企業的這個部分如果真的這樣收的時候那"},{"start":192.293,"end":215.388,"text":"我們也要全門考量不要影響到民生因為有很多東西它是相關連帶的它如果企業是這樣它成本增加它就會把物價調漲那調漲對我們老百姓直接的影響這個可能部長也要把它考慮進去那當然部長您認為我們的碳費現在應該多少錢才合理"},{"start":216.398,"end":245.077,"text":"如果依照基本上還是要衡量這個是要碳費審議委員會來決定但是以目前全世界必須有幾個考量例如說像歐盟他的碳交易大概是70塊歐元現在的價格是70塊歐元左右然後在有些國家大概都是預期未來到2030到2040年可能會到100到200塊美元所以其實這些企業應該要現在要趕快想辦法不是說我不准收這個費用大家要來想辦法"},{"start":246.138,"end":249.181,"text":"我們仔細看了一下其實歐盟他是超出標準才瞌睡"},{"start":267.698,"end":287.567,"text":"所以他超出標準他們的科稅標準是針對每個產業前10%的這個企業的平均碳排量所以稅率看起來很高實際上卻只徵收超標的部分幾乎有九成是不用收費的而且用不到的碳排量還可以當作這個碳權的一個交易"},{"start":288.928,"end":309.608,"text":"我們再看新加坡他初期的碳費只收五塊錢美金日本也是收兩塊兩塊錢美金所以我們的十塊錢美金就是憑良心講我們這樣看起來是非常的高我在這邊建議我也聽到很多企業建議希望在這個費率希望能定在一百元以內"},{"start":310.929,"end":336.465,"text":"你認為有可能嗎?報告委員這些國家你列的這幾個國家你跟你前面那一張碳廢的是衝突的所以我建議說我們一起可以把這個如何去計算那個方式搞懂因為很多的媒體他不是很懂啦所以搞懂是最主要的那第二件事情呢基本上的這些國家都有碳交易跟碳廢或碳稅碳稅的兩個制度並行啦那我未來呢這個環境部也會考量說"},{"start":337.165,"end":337.305,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":355.794,"end":381.156,"text":"五百多家企業裡面前面大概三四百家高科技業界他們都準備好了他們還在罵我們說收那麼低對他們國際競爭力不利所以希望高那至於說比較困難的這個就是我們要跟經濟部一起來合作來能夠幫他們的忙順利的轉型所以不是說我們全部調低就好那我們也必須考量到我們國內的這個CPI這個不要讓這個綠色通膨快速的發生起來"},{"start":381.756,"end":401.1,"text":"但是綠色通膨呢依照全世界的這個情況我們還是必須要考量要淨零碳排一定要有一些不一樣還有企業也非常關心我們自主減量的這個優惠的費率那根據環境部的規劃企業適用於優惠的費率未來10年必須達到削減排飯量就是說鋼鐵業是25%大概25%水泥業是22.3%其他的行業42%也就是說"},{"start":407.782,"end":436.449,"text":"攀排量每年必須達到4.2左右才可以享有優惠的費率而這個我認為這個目標我跟部長講這個有點高因為我們目前以我們臺灣做得比較好的幾個企業比如說日月光控股臺達電還有聯電及台塑都拿到雙A級的但是4月初這個週刊的揭露即使是台塑集團這種減碳的策略都已經"},{"start":437.469,"end":448.254,"text":"都已經通過CDP的評鑑的資優生也達不到10年42%的碳排的一個目標那我認為這個標準有點高啦既然剛開始"},{"start":450.017,"end":468.992,"text":"我們是要鼓勵大家來做這件事情我認為我們部裡面有必要去調整這個優惠的一個門檻讓我們的企業大家都能夠更樂意來做這件事情委員的建議其實我們的概念還是一樣一開始低然後慢慢逐步的會升高這個是我們的目前的共識"},{"start":469.933,"end":492.982,"text":"當然我們就是希望這個碳費的徵收也好我們進行減碳是國際產業的發展趨勢那當然徵收碳費的目的是要減碳不是賺錢沒錯這個希望政府能夠循序漸進然後慢慢的邁向這個經營轉型不要一下子讓企業生存不下去這也不是我們樂見的那另外第二個"},{"start":495.043,"end":505.43,"text":"我們最近6年來我們家庭廢棄物的事業廢棄物這個量產生大幅度攀升了112年已經分別達到1158萬公噸即2004萬公噸那並且因為這個政府的事業廢棄物處理的這個狀況包括南部最終的處理廠的"},{"start":516.497,"end":522.845,"text":"撤銷以及各地方失業廢棄物專門處理設施這個生設的不順利那112年已經有高達171.5萬工隊的失業廢棄物進到我們政府的焚化爐裡面這個是非常嚴重因為我們計算的話是大概是"},{"start":534.821,"end":535.401,"text":"接下來我們看這張照片"},{"start":553.787,"end":566.735,"text":"都是各縣市垃圾處理受到的失業廢棄物的排擠．無法順利處理而暫置的一個狀況目前包括桃園新竹南投等地方的垃圾堆積如山其中桃園市龍潭區"},{"start":568.703,"end":596.628,"text":"這個電子壺垃圾掩埋場已經堆至上百萬公噸的這個垃圾甚至已超過防護欄這恐有它這個坍塌的危險另外也產生不肖業者會在中間處理業者這個亂到的一個情形部長知不知道現在政府焚化爐處理失業廢棄物一公噸多少錢一百不好意思署長失業廢棄物失業廢棄物大概一萬塊上下"},{"start":598.203,"end":615.817,"text":"地方政府欸?對,就焚化爐是。焚化爐沒有吧?地方政府。您是說進地方政府焚化爐?進地方政府焚化爐是一萬塊。上下。那我知道的齁,有些這個失業廢棄物的這個處理商、清運商啦,他說的費用可能不止。"},{"start":616.597,"end":634.264,"text":"可能不只這樣子,那他進到,等於是他利用,因為他如果進一般民間的可能更高,可能更高。所以我要講的重點是,我們不能讓這些業者,他用我們供的焚化爐,讓他們來得到他們的那個獲利,這個是暴利。"},{"start":636.525,"end":660.16,"text":"那當然我們也要讓我們這些業者有地方去啊那當然我們知道剛剛有提到我剛剛也看到好幾個委員有提到就在我們現在垃圾事業廢棄物處理的部分根本沒有地方去根本沒有地方去這個是一個非常嚴重的問題搞到後面這邊也不能收那邊也不能收的時候就是亂到就是亂到嘛那部長對於這個有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":660.851,"end":673.921,"text":"我們現在已經有方案來推動這件事情了是什麼方式就是行政院已經核定了方案那就是有環境部還有經濟部跟國發費那現在有推動12座設施那我還給部長建議啦這是"},{"start":679.125,"end":702.478,"text":"有很多的政策其實我們知道垃圾沒辦法處理可是到了地方當要設置的時候就是因為地方的聲音不同就退了那一般民間業者其實也是碰到這樣的問題我在這邊建議環境部應該要拿出政府的一個魄力該做就是要做你不然到時候這些東西要去哪裡呢"},{"start":703.178,"end":726.448,"text":"所以我認為各縣市他都應該要有一個責任區甚至於我認為部長你應該給各縣市鼓勵獎勵甚至要求各縣市至少要做一做各縣市處理自己自己的垃圾的問題應該是很合理的我覺得這個用這個邏輯請政府出面然後政府來監督就不會擔心因為這個往往這種東西要這是閒物設施"},{"start":728.169,"end":728.189,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]}}}}