{"id":153687,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d54f5ad60c93214045d6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1c19ee2b2e751d37cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:48:01 - 09:57:25","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:48:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:57:25+08:00","duration":564,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":339,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時48分）謝謝主席，我們有請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長早。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們今天接續要審議的是有關通訊保障及監察法的相關條文修正草案，也是因應我們現在網路詐騙的橫行，境外網路犯罪的情況非常嚴重，所以我們期待能夠透過法律的授權來提供給檢警有效打擊網路犯罪的一個工具。想先就我們院版草案當中，實務上資訊取得的爭議來就教我們部長，在草案的第三條之一第二項當中所規範的通訊使用者資料，從第十一條之一的修訂來看，是檢警自行決定就能夠調取的，我們瞭解是為了要防止詐騙集團用人頭門號來作為一個斷點，但因為調取的程序相當簡單，將來有權力調取的人也會比較多，我想請教，這樣相對低門檻的調取條件，會不會存在被濫用的可能？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我想要調用的前提一定是有對特定的犯罪來做蒐證的，這個是屬於第一步，譬如說我一個被害人被詐團……他有一個手機，就是我這個手機或者這個網路的哪一個email是怎麼樣傳給我的，那我就去報案，因為被騙了去報案，警察第一步一定是去瞭解這email跟這個手機門號使用者的資料嘛！如果說以被害人來講，他非常急，而且警方也非常急迫的情形，或者是一個擄人勒贖的電話，或一個恐嚇的資安的電話，我們是不是還要再經法官保留、要檢方保留，這個一定延誤辦案時機，更何況德國、美國都是不需要法官令狀的，這個也沒有牽扯……這只是基本上的門號的申登資料而已，並不是整個通訊的內容，甚至連數位軌跡都談不上，所以我們認為這部分也不需要再做……所以為什麼要如此的一個規定。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們擔心會被濫用，因為……"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果濫用……"],["陳委員俊宇：未來調取的人會非常多。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個一定要有個前提，就是要有偵查犯罪的事實……"],["陳委員俊宇：事實存在。"],["鄭部長銘謙：必要性跟關聯性，而不是說我愛怎麼調就怎麼調，如果違反規定的話，我們就用其他法律來處理這樣責任的問題。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外有關我們第三條之一的第三項，網路流量紀錄的部分，看到草案的內容其實對網路的範圍還滿廣的，尤其是我們現在每天可能都透過手機會在網路上留下大量的足跡，所以我想特別對這一項資料的調取，想跟部長您來討論一下，我想先瞭解的是我們檢警在偵辦的過程當中，通常是何種情況下會需要調取這些資料？而希望能夠達到什麼樣的目的來聲請要調閱資料？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是我們有看到數位的……譬如說我們知道門號或者是email這一種的詐騙情形，我們最想要知道就是……因為這個是不明而且有人頭的帳戶、帳號的情形，所以我們希望能夠找出犯嫌的身分，所以我們去追，追IP或是真正背後的身分，我們才有上述溯源，這個就是一個在偵查犯罪最早最早的階段而已，這個在個人隱私這部分的關聯非常小，而且我們前提一定要有個案件，一定要有這個事實認為有必要性跟關聯性，我們才會去做，才調閱這些資料。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那看起來在第十一條之一當中，並沒有特別規範調取網路流量紀錄的對象，只要檢察官認為有必要、有關聯，剛剛部長您也大概說了，都能夠向法院來聲請調取票，但是如果要調取沒有犯罪嫌疑的第三人，是不是應該要有更嚴謹的把關門檻？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我們認為偵查其實是浮動的，一開頭沒辦法確認這個電話的來源或者email的來源，我們實在還沒辦法去很明確的區分這個是不是真的犯嫌或者是第三人，但我想只要我們認為這個對案件的偵辦是必要性且有關聯性，雖然要調這個通聯網路流量紀錄部分有法官保留，我想法官也會對我們的聲請做審酌，所以我認為在這邊的保護是夠。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，部長，我想請教的就是說，如果今天使用的是VPN上網，這個應該也有涉及到境外的部分，我們還能夠追蹤得到這些紀錄嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個VPN是一個虛擬的私人網絡，其實裡面都是加密的，它就是一個加密的中轉站，把真實的IP隱藏起來，然後另外再開一條加密的途徑，當然這個部分就會增加我們辦案的困擾，如果說我們這邊有一個網路流量紀錄的這些數位軌跡，我們可以試圖去做一個突破。比較詳細的部分屬於執行面，是不是可以請警政署針對執行面來做一個說明？"],["陳委員俊宇：沒關係，這個部分後續我再請教警政署，針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破。","以現代人的生活型態來看，上網的時間應該都遠過於通話的時間，對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說的，對於打擊犯罪有其必要，但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊，所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎，避免涉及到、侵犯個人隱私這方面的問題。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外我想請教的就是對於AI應用的部分，因為近期的熱門搜索關鍵字就是AI，我想跟部長來討論一下，這幾天我們整個新聞、社群、媒體，甚至百工百業都在討論AI，不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢討論到AI在臺灣的發展趨勢，或是今天來隔壁委員會備詢的國防部長報告當中也提及到AI在軍事上的應用，過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的輔助應用，對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足、工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解、舒緩這個壓力，甚至在過去法務部也曾經以科技化的法務部自詡，不過對於實際的應用成效，目前我們所知的資訊也都只是比較片段一些，我想請教部長，我們各部會都在積極部署AI在相關業務的應用，法務部也已經使用過一段時間的AI應用，目前看來使用的成效如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，目前法務部的AI計畫已經完成了跟警方的介接，這部分基本上可以用於，譬如說詐團的幫助犯、人頭帳戶詐欺的附表或是酒駕這部分，可以用AI做一個處理，而且可以帶入警詢的筆錄，這個已經在臺中跟桃園來試辦了，我們希望下半年能擴大到臺北跟新北，希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔，謝謝委員關心。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，因為我相信智慧AI將會是未來的趨勢，我們現在在全臺只有四個縣市的地檢署有在試辦AI的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：今年年底就要到四個了。"],["陳委員俊宇：就是臺北、新竹、苗栗跟臺南嘛，未來是不是有可能遍及到每一個縣市都能夠普及使用？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們希望，如果試辦的效果更好，我們會整個全部普及來使用，我們是很期待。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那就期待法務部來努力，看能不能儘早部署完成。以上，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝鄭部長。","接下來請林委員思銘發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"id":"153687","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153687","tool":"pyannote","id":"153687-pyannote"},"job_id":"0HL8DBeAMDDjK3W3","queued_at":"2024-06-06 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\"那這個比較詳細的這部分因為執行面的是不是可以請警政署做這樣執行面的這邊的一個說明沒關係沒關係這個部分後續我再請教警政署針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破那因為以現代人的這個生活型態來看上網的時間應該都遠過於這個通話的時間\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 385.935, \"end\": 386.336, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 386.336, \"end\": 386.916, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"詳\"}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 386.916, \"end\": 387.236, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 387.236, \"end\": 387.376, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 387.376, \"end\": 387.797, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 387.797, \"end\": 388.377, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 388.377, \"end\": 388.537, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 388.537, \"end\": 388.737, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 388.737, \"end\": 388.938, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 388.938, 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545.858, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 545.998, \"end\": 546.218, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"併\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 546.218, \"end\": 546.439, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 546.439, \"end\": 546.459, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,052 --> 00:00:13,560\n好謝謝主席那我們有請鄭部長有請鄭部長\n\n2\n00:00:17,657 --> 00:00:41,174\n部長早委員早我們今天接續要審議的是有關通訊保障及監察法的相關條文修正的草案也是因應我們現在網路詐騙的這個橫行境外網路犯罪的情況非常的嚴重所以我們期待能夠透過法律的授權來提供給檢警有效打擊網路犯罪的一個工具\n\n3\n00:00:42,595 --> 00:00:50,760\n想先就我們院版草案當中這個實務上資訊取得的爭議來就教我們部長在草案的第三條第一\n\n4\n00:00:52,277 --> 00:01:15,143\n第三條之一第二項當中所規範的這個通訊使用者資料從第十一條的第一之一的這個修訂來看是檢警自行決定就能夠調取的那我們瞭解是為了要防止詐騙集團用人頭門號來做一個斷點但因為這個調取的程序相當的簡單將來\n\n5\n00:01:17,698 --> 00:01:40,913\n這個有權力調取的人也會比較多那我想請教就這樣的相對低門檻的調取條件會不會存在被濫用的可能謝謝委員那我想這個那個要調用的前提一定是有對特定的一個犯罪來做收證的這個是屬於第一步就譬如說我一個詐團我一個一個被害人被詐團他有一個手機\n\n6\n00:01:41,673 --> 00:02:05,503\n就是我這個手機或者這個網路的哪一個一個一個e-mail是怎麼樣傳給我的那我我就去報因為我被騙了報警察第一步一定是去了解這e-mail跟那個這個手機門號這使用者的一個資料嘛那如果說這個以備案來講他非常急而且警方也非常的一個會急迫的情形或者是一個擄人的屬於電話會一個恐嚇恐嚇的一個資安的一個電話\n\n7\n00:02:06,303 --> 00:02:34,678\n我們是不是還要再經法官保留還檢換保留那這個一定這個在延誤辦案時機更何況德國英國這個都沒把德國美國這個都是不需要法官令狀的是這只是這個也沒有牽扯這只是基本上的一個門號的升登資料而已並不是並不是那個整個通訊的一個內容甚至連那個數位軌跡都談不上所以我們認為這部分這個是也不需要再做所以為什麼要如此的一個規定\n\n8\n00:02:35,538 --> 00:02:53,335\n好,我們是擔心會被濫用因為未來調取的人會非常的多這個一定要有個前提就是要有偵查犯罪的一個事實存在的必要性跟關聯性而不是說我要怎麼調是怎麼調如果再怎麼調就違反規定的話我們就用其他法律來處理這樣責任的問題好,那另外\n\n9\n00:02:56,938 --> 00:03:19,634\n這個有關我們第三條之一的第三項網路流量的記錄的部分那看到草案的內容其實對網路的範圍還蠻廣的啦齁那尤其是我們現在每天可能都透過手機會在網路上留下大量的這個足跡所以我想特別對這一項資料的調取想跟部長您來討論一下就是\n\n10\n00:03:20,675 --> 00:03:34,273\n我想先了解的是我們檢警在偵辦的這個過程當中通常是用何種情況下會需要調取這些資料而希望能夠達到什麼樣的目的來這個申請這個要調閱資料\n\n11\n00:03:38,415 --> 00:04:02,495\n就是我們有看到就是數位的比如說我們知道門號或者是e-mail這一種的一個詐騙的一個情形那我們最想要知道就是說因為這個是不明而且有人頭的一個帳戶帳號的一個情形所以我們希望能夠找出犯嫌的一個身份所以我們去追追是不是追這個IP啦或是怎樣的一個真正的一個背後的一個到底是一個身份那我們才用上述溯源\n\n12\n00:04:03,195 --> 00:04:28,403\n這個就是一個在偵查犯罪最早最早的一個階段而已這個在一個個人隱私這部分這個是非常關鍵是非常小而且而且這個我們這前提一定要有個案件一定要這個事實認為有必要性跟關聯性我們才會去做才這樣的一個一個調位這些一個資料好那看起來在這個11條之一當中並沒有特別規範說調取網路流量記錄的這個對象只要\n\n13\n00:04:32,684 --> 00:04:48,496\n這個檢察官認為有必要有關聯這個剛剛部長您也大概說了都能夠向法院來申請調取的票但是如果要調取沒有犯罪嫌疑的第三人是不是應該要有更嚴謹的把關的門檻\n\n14\n00:04:55,256 --> 00:04:55,556\n二、繼續併案\n\n15\n00:05:17,728 --> 00:05:17,768\n二、繼續併案\n\n16\n00:05:36,118 --> 00:05:49,406\n好,那如果部長我想請教就是說我們今天使用的是這個VPN在上網這個應該有涉及到境外的部分我們還能夠追蹤得到這些記錄嗎?\n\n17\n00:05:51,230 --> 00:06:15,282\n這個密片是一個虛擬的私人網絡它其實裡面都是加密的它就一個就是加密的中轉站它是把那個真實的IP是隱藏起來另外再開一條加密的一個途徑那這邊當然這邊我們是在這邊可以增加我們這個辦案的一個困擾但如果說我們這邊有一個網路受到網路的一個流量的一個\n\n18\n00:06:16,543 --> 00:06:24,270\n一）一些的記錄就這些的數位軌跡我們可以試圖去做草去做一）個一）個去做一）個突破那我想這\n\n19\n00:06:25,935 --> 00:06:45,831\n那這個比較詳細的這部分因為執行面的是不是可以請警政署做這樣執行面的這邊的一個說明沒關係沒關係這個部分後續我再請教警政署針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破那因為以現代人的這個生活型態來看上網的時間應該都遠過於這個通話的時間\n\n20\n00:06:49,413 --> 00:07:09,443\n那對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說了對於這個打擊犯罪有其必要但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎避免這個涉及到這個侵犯到個人的隱私的這個方面的問題謝謝委員\n\n21\n00:07:11,064 --> 00:07:26,649\n那另外我想請教就是對於AI應用的部分那因為近期這個熱門的搜索關鍵字就是AI我想跟部長您來討論一下這幾天我們整個新聞社群媒體甚至百公百業都在討論這個AI不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢\n\n22\n00:07:29,850 --> 00:07:57,361\n討論到這個AI在台灣的發展趨勢那現在在隔壁的這個國防部長報告當中也提及到這個AI在軍事上的應用那過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的這個輔助應用對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解紓緩這個壓力甚至在過去我們法務部也曾經以這個科技化的法務部自詡\n\n23\n00:07:58,393 --> 00:08:19,987\n不過對於實際的這個應用成效目前我們所知的這個資訊也都只是這個比較片段一些我想請教部長就是我們各部會都在積極部署AI的業務上應用那法務部也有使用這個一段時間的這個AI的這個應用了那目前看來使用的成效如何?\n\n24\n00:08:21,308 --> 00:08:47,089\n謝謝委員目前我們法務部的AI計劃已經完成了跟警方的一個借接了那這部分基本上可以用那個譬如說詐團的那個幫助人頭贓戶的詐欺的一個付表或酒駕這一部分那可以用AI來做一個處理而且可以帶入警訊的一個筆錄那這個已經在台中跟桃園來試辦了那我們希望下半年能夠擴大到台北跟新北那希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔那謝謝委員關心\n\n25\n00:08:50,532 --> 00:09:05,858\n好因為智慧AI我相信這是未來的一個趨勢啊那我們現在在全台只有4個縣市的地檢署有在試辦這個AI的這個這個今年年底交到4個對在台北新竹苗栗跟台南嘛齁那未來是不是有可能\n\n26\n00:09:05,998 --> 00:09:06,459\n二、繼續併案審查\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11052\t13560\t好謝謝主席那我們有請鄭部長有請鄭部長\n17657\t41174\t部長早委員早我們今天接續要審議的是有關通訊保障及監察法的相關條文修正的草案也是因應我們現在網路詐騙的這個橫行境外網路犯罪的情況非常的嚴重所以我們期待能夠透過法律的授權來提供給檢警有效打擊網路犯罪的一個工具\n42595\t50760\t想先就我們院版草案當中這個實務上資訊取得的爭議來就教我們部長在草案的第三條第一\n52277\t75143\t第三條之一第二項當中所規範的這個通訊使用者資料從第十一條的第一之一的這個修訂來看是檢警自行決定就能夠調取的那我們瞭解是為了要防止詐騙集團用人頭門號來做一個斷點但因為這個調取的程序相當的簡單將來\n77698\t100913\t這個有權力調取的人也會比較多那我想請教就這樣的相對低門檻的調取條件會不會存在被濫用的可能謝謝委員那我想這個那個要調用的前提一定是有對特定的一個犯罪來做收證的這個是屬於第一步就譬如說我一個詐團我一個一個被害人被詐團他有一個手機\n101673\t125503\t就是我這個手機或者這個網路的哪一個一個一個e-mail是怎麼樣傳給我的那我我就去報因為我被騙了報警察第一步一定是去了解這e-mail跟那個這個手機門號這使用者的一個資料嘛那如果說這個以備案來講他非常急而且警方也非常的一個會急迫的情形或者是一個擄人的屬於電話會一個恐嚇恐嚇的一個資安的一個電話\n126303\t154678\t我們是不是還要再經法官保留還檢換保留那這個一定這個在延誤辦案時機更何況德國英國這個都沒把德國美國這個都是不需要法官令狀的是這只是這個也沒有牽扯這只是基本上的一個門號的升登資料而已並不是並不是那個整個通訊的一個內容甚至連那個數位軌跡都談不上所以我們認為這部分這個是也不需要再做所以為什麼要如此的一個規定\n155538\t173335\t好,我們是擔心會被濫用因為未來調取的人會非常的多這個一定要有個前提就是要有偵查犯罪的一個事實存在的必要性跟關聯性而不是說我要怎麼調是怎麼調如果再怎麼調就違反規定的話我們就用其他法律來處理這樣責任的問題好,那另外\n176938\t199634\t這個有關我們第三條之一的第三項網路流量的記錄的部分那看到草案的內容其實對網路的範圍還蠻廣的啦齁那尤其是我們現在每天可能都透過手機會在網路上留下大量的這個足跡所以我想特別對這一項資料的調取想跟部長您來討論一下就是\n200675\t214273\t我想先了解的是我們檢警在偵辦的這個過程當中通常是用何種情況下會需要調取這些資料而希望能夠達到什麼樣的目的來這個申請這個要調閱資料\n218415\t242495\t就是我們有看到就是數位的比如說我們知道門號或者是e-mail這一種的一個詐騙的一個情形那我們最想要知道就是說因為這個是不明而且有人頭的一個帳戶帳號的一個情形所以我們希望能夠找出犯嫌的一個身份所以我們去追追是不是追這個IP啦或是怎樣的一個真正的一個背後的一個到底是一個身份那我們才用上述溯源\n243195\t268403\t這個就是一個在偵查犯罪最早最早的一個階段而已這個在一個個人隱私這部分這個是非常關鍵是非常小而且而且這個我們這前提一定要有個案件一定要這個事實認為有必要性跟關聯性我們才會去做才這樣的一個一個調位這些一個資料好那看起來在這個11條之一當中並沒有特別規範說調取網路流量記錄的這個對象只要\n272684\t288496\t這個檢察官認為有必要有關聯這個剛剛部長您也大概說了都能夠向法院來申請調取的票但是如果要調取沒有犯罪嫌疑的第三人是不是應該要有更嚴謹的把關的門檻\n295256\t295556\t二、繼續併案\n317728\t317768\t二、繼續併案\n336118\t349406\t好,那如果部長我想請教就是說我們今天使用的是這個VPN在上網這個應該有涉及到境外的部分我們還能夠追蹤得到這些記錄嗎?\n351230\t375282\t這個密片是一個虛擬的私人網絡它其實裡面都是加密的它就一個就是加密的中轉站它是把那個真實的IP是隱藏起來另外再開一條加密的一個途徑那這邊當然這邊我們是在這邊可以增加我們這個辦案的一個困擾但如果說我們這邊有一個網路受到網路的一個流量的一個\n376543\t384270\t一）一些的記錄就這些的數位軌跡我們可以試圖去做草去做一）個一）個去做一）個突破那我想這\n385935\t405831\t那這個比較詳細的這部分因為執行面的是不是可以請警政署做這樣執行面的這邊的一個說明沒關係沒關係這個部分後續我再請教警政署針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破那因為以現代人的這個生活型態來看上網的時間應該都遠過於這個通話的時間\n409413\t429443\t那對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說了對於這個打擊犯罪有其必要但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎避免這個涉及到這個侵犯到個人的隱私的這個方面的問題謝謝委員\n431064\t446649\t那另外我想請教就是對於AI應用的部分那因為近期這個熱門的搜索關鍵字就是AI我想跟部長您來討論一下這幾天我們整個新聞社群媒體甚至百公百業都在討論這個AI不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢\n449850\t477361\t討論到這個AI在台灣的發展趨勢那現在在隔壁的這個國防部長報告當中也提及到這個AI在軍事上的應用那過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的這個輔助應用對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解紓緩這個壓力甚至在過去我們法務部也曾經以這個科技化的法務部自詡\n478393\t499987\t不過對於實際的這個應用成效目前我們所知的這個資訊也都只是這個比較片段一些我想請教部長就是我們各部會都在積極部署AI的業務上應用那法務部也有使用這個一段時間的這個AI的這個應用了那目前看來使用的成效如何?\n501308\t527089\t謝謝委員目前我們法務部的AI計劃已經完成了跟警方的一個借接了那這部分基本上可以用那個譬如說詐團的那個幫助人頭贓戶的詐欺的一個付表或酒駕這一部分那可以用AI來做一個處理而且可以帶入警訊的一個筆錄那這個已經在台中跟桃園來試辦了那我們希望下半年能夠擴大到台北跟新北那希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔那謝謝委員關心\n530532\t545858\t好因為智慧AI我相信這是未來的一個趨勢啊那我們現在在全台只有4個縣市的地檢署有在試辦這個AI的這個這個今年年底交到4個對在台北新竹苗栗跟台南嘛齁那未來是不是有可能\n545998\t546459\t二、繼續併案審查\n","txt":"好謝謝主席那我們有請鄭部長有請鄭部長\n部長早委員早我們今天接續要審議的是有關通訊保障及監察法的相關條文修正的草案也是因應我們現在網路詐騙的這個橫行境外網路犯罪的情況非常的嚴重所以我們期待能夠透過法律的授權來提供給檢警有效打擊網路犯罪的一個工具\n想先就我們院版草案當中這個實務上資訊取得的爭議來就教我們部長在草案的第三條第一\n第三條之一第二項當中所規範的這個通訊使用者資料從第十一條的第一之一的這個修訂來看是檢警自行決定就能夠調取的那我們瞭解是為了要防止詐騙集團用人頭門號來做一個斷點但因為這個調取的程序相當的簡單將來\n這個有權力調取的人也會比較多那我想請教就這樣的相對低門檻的調取條件會不會存在被濫用的可能謝謝委員那我想這個那個要調用的前提一定是有對特定的一個犯罪來做收證的這個是屬於第一步就譬如說我一個詐團我一個一個被害人被詐團他有一個手機\n就是我這個手機或者這個網路的哪一個一個一個e-mail是怎麼樣傳給我的那我我就去報因為我被騙了報警察第一步一定是去了解這e-mail跟那個這個手機門號這使用者的一個資料嘛那如果說這個以備案來講他非常急而且警方也非常的一個會急迫的情形或者是一個擄人的屬於電話會一個恐嚇恐嚇的一個資安的一個電話\n我們是不是還要再經法官保留還檢換保留那這個一定這個在延誤辦案時機更何況德國英國這個都沒把德國美國這個都是不需要法官令狀的是這只是這個也沒有牽扯這只是基本上的一個門號的升登資料而已並不是並不是那個整個通訊的一個內容甚至連那個數位軌跡都談不上所以我們認為這部分這個是也不需要再做所以為什麼要如此的一個規定\n好,我們是擔心會被濫用因為未來調取的人會非常的多這個一定要有個前提就是要有偵查犯罪的一個事實存在的必要性跟關聯性而不是說我要怎麼調是怎麼調如果再怎麼調就違反規定的話我們就用其他法律來處理這樣責任的問題好,那另外\n這個有關我們第三條之一的第三項網路流量的記錄的部分那看到草案的內容其實對網路的範圍還蠻廣的啦齁那尤其是我們現在每天可能都透過手機會在網路上留下大量的這個足跡所以我想特別對這一項資料的調取想跟部長您來討論一下就是\n我想先了解的是我們檢警在偵辦的這個過程當中通常是用何種情況下會需要調取這些資料而希望能夠達到什麼樣的目的來這個申請這個要調閱資料\n就是我們有看到就是數位的比如說我們知道門號或者是e-mail這一種的一個詐騙的一個情形那我們最想要知道就是說因為這個是不明而且有人頭的一個帳戶帳號的一個情形所以我們希望能夠找出犯嫌的一個身份所以我們去追追是不是追這個IP啦或是怎樣的一個真正的一個背後的一個到底是一個身份那我們才用上述溯源\n這個就是一個在偵查犯罪最早最早的一個階段而已這個在一個個人隱私這部分這個是非常關鍵是非常小而且而且這個我們這前提一定要有個案件一定要這個事實認為有必要性跟關聯性我們才會去做才這樣的一個一個調位這些一個資料好那看起來在這個11條之一當中並沒有特別規範說調取網路流量記錄的這個對象只要\n這個檢察官認為有必要有關聯這個剛剛部長您也大概說了都能夠向法院來申請調取的票但是如果要調取沒有犯罪嫌疑的第三人是不是應該要有更嚴謹的把關的門檻\n二、繼續併案\n二、繼續併案\n好,那如果部長我想請教就是說我們今天使用的是這個VPN在上網這個應該有涉及到境外的部分我們還能夠追蹤得到這些記錄嗎?\n這個密片是一個虛擬的私人網絡它其實裡面都是加密的它就一個就是加密的中轉站它是把那個真實的IP是隱藏起來另外再開一條加密的一個途徑那這邊當然這邊我們是在這邊可以增加我們這個辦案的一個困擾但如果說我們這邊有一個網路受到網路的一個流量的一個\n一）一些的記錄就這些的數位軌跡我們可以試圖去做草去做一）個一）個去做一）個突破那我想這\n那這個比較詳細的這部分因為執行面的是不是可以請警政署做這樣執行面的這邊的一個說明沒關係沒關係這個部分後續我再請教警政署針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破那因為以現代人的這個生活型態來看上網的時間應該都遠過於這個通話的時間\n那對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說了對於這個打擊犯罪有其必要但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎避免這個涉及到這個侵犯到個人的隱私的這個方面的問題謝謝委員\n那另外我想請教就是對於AI應用的部分那因為近期這個熱門的搜索關鍵字就是AI我想跟部長您來討論一下這幾天我們整個新聞社群媒體甚至百公百業都在討論這個AI不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢\n討論到這個AI在台灣的發展趨勢那現在在隔壁的這個國防部長報告當中也提及到這個AI在軍事上的應用那過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的這個輔助應用對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解紓緩這個壓力甚至在過去我們法務部也曾經以這個科技化的法務部自詡\n不過對於實際的這個應用成效目前我們所知的這個資訊也都只是這個比較片段一些我想請教部長就是我們各部會都在積極部署AI的業務上應用那法務部也有使用這個一段時間的這個AI的這個應用了那目前看來使用的成效如何?\n謝謝委員目前我們法務部的AI計劃已經完成了跟警方的一個借接了那這部分基本上可以用那個譬如說詐團的那個幫助人頭贓戶的詐欺的一個付表或酒駕這一部分那可以用AI來做一個處理而且可以帶入警訊的一個筆錄那這個已經在台中跟桃園來試辦了那我們希望下半年能夠擴大到台北跟新北那希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔那謝謝委員關心\n好因為智慧AI我相信這是未來的一個趨勢啊那我們現在在全台只有4個縣市的地檢署有在試辦這個AI的這個這個今年年底交到4個對在台北新竹苗栗跟台南嘛齁那未來是不是有可能\n二、繼續併案審查\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.052 --> 00:13.560\n好謝謝主席那我們有請鄭部長有請鄭部長\n\n00:17.657 --> 00:41.174\n部長早委員早我們今天接續要審議的是有關通訊保障及監察法的相關條文修正的草案也是因應我們現在網路詐騙的這個橫行境外網路犯罪的情況非常的嚴重所以我們期待能夠透過法律的授權來提供給檢警有效打擊網路犯罪的一個工具\n\n00:42.595 --> 00:50.760\n想先就我們院版草案當中這個實務上資訊取得的爭議來就教我們部長在草案的第三條第一\n\n00:52.277 --> 01:15.143\n第三條之一第二項當中所規範的這個通訊使用者資料從第十一條的第一之一的這個修訂來看是檢警自行決定就能夠調取的那我們瞭解是為了要防止詐騙集團用人頭門號來做一個斷點但因為這個調取的程序相當的簡單將來\n\n01:17.698 --> 01:40.913\n這個有權力調取的人也會比較多那我想請教就這樣的相對低門檻的調取條件會不會存在被濫用的可能謝謝委員那我想這個那個要調用的前提一定是有對特定的一個犯罪來做收證的這個是屬於第一步就譬如說我一個詐團我一個一個被害人被詐團他有一個手機\n\n01:41.673 --> 02:05.503\n就是我這個手機或者這個網路的哪一個一個一個e-mail是怎麼樣傳給我的那我我就去報因為我被騙了報警察第一步一定是去了解這e-mail跟那個這個手機門號這使用者的一個資料嘛那如果說這個以備案來講他非常急而且警方也非常的一個會急迫的情形或者是一個擄人的屬於電話會一個恐嚇恐嚇的一個資安的一個電話\n\n02:06.303 --> 02:34.678\n我們是不是還要再經法官保留還檢換保留那這個一定這個在延誤辦案時機更何況德國英國這個都沒把德國美國這個都是不需要法官令狀的是這只是這個也沒有牽扯這只是基本上的一個門號的升登資料而已並不是並不是那個整個通訊的一個內容甚至連那個數位軌跡都談不上所以我們認為這部分這個是也不需要再做所以為什麼要如此的一個規定\n\n02:35.538 --> 02:53.335\n好,我們是擔心會被濫用因為未來調取的人會非常的多這個一定要有個前提就是要有偵查犯罪的一個事實存在的必要性跟關聯性而不是說我要怎麼調是怎麼調如果再怎麼調就違反規定的話我們就用其他法律來處理這樣責任的問題好,那另外\n\n02:56.938 --> 03:19.634\n這個有關我們第三條之一的第三項網路流量的記錄的部分那看到草案的內容其實對網路的範圍還蠻廣的啦齁那尤其是我們現在每天可能都透過手機會在網路上留下大量的這個足跡所以我想特別對這一項資料的調取想跟部長您來討論一下就是\n\n03:20.675 --> 03:34.273\n我想先了解的是我們檢警在偵辦的這個過程當中通常是用何種情況下會需要調取這些資料而希望能夠達到什麼樣的目的來這個申請這個要調閱資料\n\n03:38.415 --> 04:02.495\n就是我們有看到就是數位的比如說我們知道門號或者是e-mail這一種的一個詐騙的一個情形那我們最想要知道就是說因為這個是不明而且有人頭的一個帳戶帳號的一個情形所以我們希望能夠找出犯嫌的一個身份所以我們去追追是不是追這個IP啦或是怎樣的一個真正的一個背後的一個到底是一個身份那我們才用上述溯源\n\n04:03.195 --> 04:28.403\n這個就是一個在偵查犯罪最早最早的一個階段而已這個在一個個人隱私這部分這個是非常關鍵是非常小而且而且這個我們這前提一定要有個案件一定要這個事實認為有必要性跟關聯性我們才會去做才這樣的一個一個調位這些一個資料好那看起來在這個11條之一當中並沒有特別規範說調取網路流量記錄的這個對象只要\n\n04:32.684 --> 04:48.496\n這個檢察官認為有必要有關聯這個剛剛部長您也大概說了都能夠向法院來申請調取的票但是如果要調取沒有犯罪嫌疑的第三人是不是應該要有更嚴謹的把關的門檻\n\n04:55.256 --> 04:55.556\n二、繼續併案\n\n05:17.728 --> 05:17.768\n二、繼續併案\n\n05:36.118 --> 05:49.406\n好,那如果部長我想請教就是說我們今天使用的是這個VPN在上網這個應該有涉及到境外的部分我們還能夠追蹤得到這些記錄嗎?\n\n05:51.230 --> 06:15.282\n這個密片是一個虛擬的私人網絡它其實裡面都是加密的它就一個就是加密的中轉站它是把那個真實的IP是隱藏起來另外再開一條加密的一個途徑那這邊當然這邊我們是在這邊可以增加我們這個辦案的一個困擾但如果說我們這邊有一個網路受到網路的一個流量的一個\n\n06:16.543 --> 06:24.270\n一）一些的記錄就這些的數位軌跡我們可以試圖去做草去做一）個一）個去做一）個突破那我想這\n\n06:25.935 --> 06:45.831\n那這個比較詳細的這部分因為執行面的是不是可以請警政署做這樣執行面的這邊的一個說明沒關係沒關係這個部分後續我再請教警政署針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破那因為以現代人的這個生活型態來看上網的時間應該都遠過於這個通話的時間\n\n06:49.413 --> 07:09.443\n那對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說了對於這個打擊犯罪有其必要但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎避免這個涉及到這個侵犯到個人的隱私的這個方面的問題謝謝委員\n\n07:11.064 --> 07:26.649\n那另外我想請教就是對於AI應用的部分那因為近期這個熱門的搜索關鍵字就是AI我想跟部長您來討論一下這幾天我們整個新聞社群媒體甚至百公百業都在討論這個AI不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢\n\n07:29.850 --> 07:57.361\n討論到這個AI在台灣的發展趨勢那現在在隔壁的這個國防部長報告當中也提及到這個AI在軍事上的應用那過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的這個輔助應用對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解紓緩這個壓力甚至在過去我們法務部也曾經以這個科技化的法務部自詡\n\n07:58.393 --> 08:19.987\n不過對於實際的這個應用成效目前我們所知的這個資訊也都只是這個比較片段一些我想請教部長就是我們各部會都在積極部署AI的業務上應用那法務部也有使用這個一段時間的這個AI的這個應用了那目前看來使用的成效如何?\n\n08:21.308 --> 08:47.089\n謝謝委員目前我們法務部的AI計劃已經完成了跟警方的一個借接了那這部分基本上可以用那個譬如說詐團的那個幫助人頭贓戶的詐欺的一個付表或酒駕這一部分那可以用AI來做一個處理而且可以帶入警訊的一個筆錄那這個已經在台中跟桃園來試辦了那我們希望下半年能夠擴大到台北跟新北那希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔那謝謝委員關心\n\n08:50.532 --> 09:05.858\n好因為智慧AI我相信這是未來的一個趨勢啊那我們現在在全台只有4個縣市的地檢署有在試辦這個AI的這個這個今年年底交到4個對在台北新竹苗栗跟台南嘛齁那未來是不是有可能\n\n09:05.998 --> 09:06.459\n二、繼續併案審查\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.052,"end":13.56,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們有請鄭部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":17.657,"end":41.174,"text":"部長早委員早我們今天接續要審議的是有關通訊保障及監察法的相關條文修正的草案也是因應我們現在網路詐騙的這個橫行境外網路犯罪的情況非常的嚴重所以我們期待能夠透過法律的授權來提供給檢警有效打擊網路犯罪的一個工具"},{"start":42.595,"end":50.76,"text":"想先就我們院版草案當中這個實務上資訊取得的爭議來就教我們部長在草案的第三條第一"},{"start":52.277,"end":75.143,"text":"第三條之一第二項當中所規範的這個通訊使用者資料從第十一條的第一之一的這個修訂來看是檢警自行決定就能夠調取的那我們瞭解是為了要防止詐騙集團用人頭門號來做一個斷點但因為這個調取的程序相當的簡單將來"},{"start":77.698,"end":100.913,"text":"這個有權力調取的人也會比較多那我想請教就這樣的相對低門檻的調取條件會不會存在被濫用的可能謝謝委員那我想這個那個要調用的前提一定是有對特定的一個犯罪來做收證的這個是屬於第一步就譬如說我一個詐團我一個一個被害人被詐團他有一個手機"},{"start":101.673,"end":125.503,"text":"就是我這個手機或者這個網路的哪一個一個一個e-mail是怎麼樣傳給我的那我我就去報因為我被騙了報警察第一步一定是去了解這e-mail跟那個這個手機門號這使用者的一個資料嘛那如果說這個以備案來講他非常急而且警方也非常的一個會急迫的情形或者是一個擄人的屬於電話會一個恐嚇恐嚇的一個資安的一個電話"},{"start":126.303,"end":154.678,"text":"我們是不是還要再經法官保留還檢換保留那這個一定這個在延誤辦案時機更何況德國英國這個都沒把德國美國這個都是不需要法官令狀的是這只是這個也沒有牽扯這只是基本上的一個門號的升登資料而已並不是並不是那個整個通訊的一個內容甚至連那個數位軌跡都談不上所以我們認為這部分這個是也不需要再做所以為什麼要如此的一個規定"},{"start":155.538,"end":173.335,"text":"好,我們是擔心會被濫用因為未來調取的人會非常的多這個一定要有個前提就是要有偵查犯罪的一個事實存在的必要性跟關聯性而不是說我要怎麼調是怎麼調如果再怎麼調就違反規定的話我們就用其他法律來處理這樣責任的問題好,那另外"},{"start":176.938,"end":199.634,"text":"這個有關我們第三條之一的第三項網路流量的記錄的部分那看到草案的內容其實對網路的範圍還蠻廣的啦齁那尤其是我們現在每天可能都透過手機會在網路上留下大量的這個足跡所以我想特別對這一項資料的調取想跟部長您來討論一下就是"},{"start":200.675,"end":214.273,"text":"我想先了解的是我們檢警在偵辦的這個過程當中通常是用何種情況下會需要調取這些資料而希望能夠達到什麼樣的目的來這個申請這個要調閱資料"},{"start":218.415,"end":242.495,"text":"就是我們有看到就是數位的比如說我們知道門號或者是e-mail這一種的一個詐騙的一個情形那我們最想要知道就是說因為這個是不明而且有人頭的一個帳戶帳號的一個情形所以我們希望能夠找出犯嫌的一個身份所以我們去追追是不是追這個IP啦或是怎樣的一個真正的一個背後的一個到底是一個身份那我們才用上述溯源"},{"start":243.195,"end":268.403,"text":"這個就是一個在偵查犯罪最早最早的一個階段而已這個在一個個人隱私這部分這個是非常關鍵是非常小而且而且這個我們這前提一定要有個案件一定要這個事實認為有必要性跟關聯性我們才會去做才這樣的一個一個調位這些一個資料好那看起來在這個11條之一當中並沒有特別規範說調取網路流量記錄的這個對象只要"},{"start":272.684,"end":288.496,"text":"這個檢察官認為有必要有關聯這個剛剛部長您也大概說了都能夠向法院來申請調取的票但是如果要調取沒有犯罪嫌疑的第三人是不是應該要有更嚴謹的把關的門檻"},{"start":295.256,"end":295.556,"text":"二、繼續併案"},{"start":317.728,"end":317.768,"text":"二、繼續併案"},{"start":336.118,"end":349.406,"text":"好,那如果部長我想請教就是說我們今天使用的是這個VPN在上網這個應該有涉及到境外的部分我們還能夠追蹤得到這些記錄嗎?"},{"start":351.23,"end":375.282,"text":"這個密片是一個虛擬的私人網絡它其實裡面都是加密的它就一個就是加密的中轉站它是把那個真實的IP是隱藏起來另外再開一條加密的一個途徑那這邊當然這邊我們是在這邊可以增加我們這個辦案的一個困擾但如果說我們這邊有一個網路受到網路的一個流量的一個"},{"start":376.543,"end":384.27,"text":"一）一些的記錄就這些的數位軌跡我們可以試圖去做草去做一）個一）個去做一）個突破那我想這"},{"start":385.935,"end":405.831,"text":"那這個比較詳細的這部分因為執行面的是不是可以請警政署做這樣執行面的這邊的一個說明沒關係沒關係這個部分後續我再請教警政署針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破那因為以現代人的這個生活型態來看上網的時間應該都遠過於這個通話的時間"},{"start":409.413,"end":429.443,"text":"那對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說了對於這個打擊犯罪有其必要但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎避免這個涉及到這個侵犯到個人的隱私的這個方面的問題謝謝委員"},{"start":431.064,"end":446.649,"text":"那另外我想請教就是對於AI應用的部分那因為近期這個熱門的搜索關鍵字就是AI我想跟部長您來討論一下這幾天我們整個新聞社群媒體甚至百公百業都在討論這個AI不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢"},{"start":449.85,"end":477.361,"text":"討論到這個AI在台灣的發展趨勢那現在在隔壁的這個國防部長報告當中也提及到這個AI在軍事上的應用那過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的這個輔助應用對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解紓緩這個壓力甚至在過去我們法務部也曾經以這個科技化的法務部自詡"},{"start":478.393,"end":499.987,"text":"不過對於實際的這個應用成效目前我們所知的這個資訊也都只是這個比較片段一些我想請教部長就是我們各部會都在積極部署AI的業務上應用那法務部也有使用這個一段時間的這個AI的這個應用了那目前看來使用的成效如何?"},{"start":501.308,"end":527.089,"text":"謝謝委員目前我們法務部的AI計劃已經完成了跟警方的一個借接了那這部分基本上可以用那個譬如說詐團的那個幫助人頭贓戶的詐欺的一個付表或酒駕這一部分那可以用AI來做一個處理而且可以帶入警訊的一個筆錄那這個已經在台中跟桃園來試辦了那我們希望下半年能夠擴大到台北跟新北那希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔那謝謝委員關心"},{"start":530.532,"end":545.858,"text":"好因為智慧AI我相信這是未來的一個趨勢啊那我們現在在全台只有4個縣市的地檢署有在試辦這個AI的這個這個今年年底交到4個對在台北新竹苗栗跟台南嘛齁那未來是不是有可能"},{"start":545.998,"end":546.459,"text":"二、繼續併案審查"}]}}}}