{"id":153688,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153688","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d51dfacb85ea3386bdd6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1caa6d9d5be5f1c9245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:57:29 - 10:08:03","影片長度":"00:10:34","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:57:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:08:03+08:00","duration":634,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（9時57分）謝謝主席，請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["林委員思銘：部長早。部長，我們這次修訂的通保法，當然有很多疑慮剛剛大家也都有提出來，我首先請教部長的就是，我們通保法內對通訊的定義是否包括以網路通訊軟體，比如LINE或者是微信或者Message所傳送的文字、圖片及語音訊息？有沒有包含這些通訊軟體？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分不包括。"],["林委員思銘：不包括嘛，如果說不包括的話，以現在國人使用手機的習慣，我們大部分都是使用LINE的通訊軟體或者微信或者臉書的Message來做相關文字、圖片或語音訊息的傳送。所以如果沒有辦法就這些網路通訊軟體的通訊內容加以監察，是不是會導致我們犯罪偵查的效果就打折了？所以通保法的立法，昨天我們進行了科技偵查法的相關審查，但是如果對這方面我們沒有辦法去做相關的，就是如這一次我們把這方面的通訊做相關的監察，是不是在感覺上就好像少了什麼東西啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員關心這個問題，事實上，這些社群網路的平臺業者，他們的這些通訊軟體是沒辦法去監察，因為都是加密的，所以沒辦法做通訊監察，如果……"],["林委員思銘：所以部長，我的感受啦，這個就變成防君子不防小人的溫柔立法，很溫柔喔，對犯罪偵查的助益有限。也就是說，因為你沒有辦法做這方面的監察，那麼不管是詐騙或是組織犯罪的這些人，他如果利用這些通訊軟體來做相關通訊的話，以部長剛才的說法，是不是我們就完全沒轍？"],["鄭部長銘謙：昨天審查的科偵法，在通訊軟體這個部分，如果是植入小木馬這一種的話，當然可以去做這樣一個……"],["林委員思銘：部長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是因為對人權的侵害度大家有疑慮，所以這部分都另外處理，已經拿掉了，沒有這個問題了。"],["林委員思銘：所以我們未來如果真的需要這些通訊軟體的資料，比如說需要LINE軟體的通訊資料，我們也沒有辦法請他們來配合，我們的檢、警、調沒有辦法跟LINE的公司合作，因為我們有偵查犯罪的必要而請他們提供嗎？沒有辦法合作嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前的話，我們只能用協議的方式，那就要看這整個通訊軟體、社群軟體的軟體業者的一個配合度。"],["林委員思銘：我們目前有跟他們訂任何的協議嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以LINE來看的話，我們的協議是沒辦法，它一定要有搜索票，也就是依刑事訴訟法的規定聲請搜索票，告知LINE那邊有搜索票之後，它才會提供，而且它只能調到回溯80日跟連續7日的資料，基本上LINE的內容都是有加密的，所以事實上我們只能看到……"],["林委員思銘：調到的內容還是有限？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還是有限。"],["林委員思銘：好，針對這個部分，我還是希望法務部能夠就這方面的漏洞，這真的是一個漏洞，看看如何來做一個建置，次長有要補充一下嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，關於LINE的部分，如果LINE本身有投放廣告的話，在昨天大院審查會通過的打詐專法裡面，事實上，就這個平臺業者如果投放廣告的話，它有相關的留存義務，以及我們向它調取時它必須要提供的義務，所以未來如果相關的平臺有符合廣告業者的規定的話，可以用新的打詐專法去調取。"],["林委員思銘：好，OK。接下來我再請問，現在的詐騙案件，大多數投資詐騙的網站IP都是在境外，部長，對於這種國外IP的伺服器，我們是不是就都沒有辦法偵查？也沒有辦法來偵辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前這部分的整個偵辦就會遇到阻礙了。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以如何克服？這部分如何克服？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前……"],["林委員思銘：這樣聽起來，現在即便有科偵法或幾個打詐專法過，好像對這些境外的這些，它的機房在境外的或者它是用國外的伺服器，聽起來我們就完全沒有辦法去打擊啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以委員就問到重點了，這就是我們第三條增加網路流量的紀錄，我們可以做判斷、分析，能夠追出這個IP幕後真正的人。"],["林委員思銘：所以即便目前我們在國際間的刑事合作有很多的管道，不管是法務部有國際及兩岸法律司，調查局有國際事務處，警政署也有國際組，刑事警察局也有國際刑警科，所以我們這幾個跟國外合作的相關單位都沒有辦法對這些來自境外IP去跟國外請求協助嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分比較專業，是不是……"],["林委員思銘：警政署？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，剛才委員講到境外的網路業者的部分，事實上我們昨天打詐專法裡面通過一條，要求境外業者要在臺灣準落地，它必須要在臺灣設置一個法律代表人的機制，如果它沒有設的話，我們會用高額的行政裁罰去裁罰它，透過行政上的管制，要求境外的業者在臺灣以準落地的方式去控管這些境外的業者。至於司法互助的部分，當然我們國家可以透過正式的司法互助去做請求，但這個速度當然比較慢，透過警政之間的情資交換也是一個途徑去取得相關交換的情資。"],["林委員思銘：所以打詐專法裡面已經有相關的……"],["黃次長謀信：對，準落地，有一個行政管制。"],["林委員思銘：如果這樣的話，警政署，這屬於你們的業務吧？未來遇到這種情況你們要如何執行？"],["陳副署長永利：因為現在碰到境外確實有它的困難，就是剛才提到VPN的斷點，就是伺服器在國外，所以就追不下去，那我們現在可以做的第一個是我們知道它這個網路，就把它封鎖；第二個，當然成效不一定，如果我們知道是某一個國家，如果我們刑事局有駐外聯絡官，或許可以請求協助，另外，我們現在積極在爭取，希望我們能夠加入國際刑警組織，但是目前這個還在努力當中。"],["林委員思銘：副署長，我覺得聽起來這方面我們真的要再加把勁。"],["陳副署長永利：目前是碰到困難。"],["林委員思銘：即便剛剛次長講說現在已經用相關法規規定，境外的這些業者要落地、要註冊，但是我覺得這些利用境外的帳號來做詐騙，好像我們還是很難阻絕。"],["陳副署長永利：是，目前還有它的難度。"],["林委員思銘：是，因為時間的關係，我再問最後一個問題。無論是訂立科技偵查或者通保法，我們總是再三考慮不要侵犯人權、不要涉及個資、不要蒐集到第三人的資料，而且昨天的科偵法也說，對於蒐集到的資料，除非認為有必要，否則要立即銷燬，有必要的也要在五年後銷燬。所以法律是訂得很嚴謹，但是我們看到還是有些人可以輕易的取得這些資料，比如說現在被臺北地檢署偵辦的王義川，他就表明了，對於民眾的個資，他掌握的有包含性別、年齡、數位足跡，所以我要問部長，他是否就掌握了通訊使用者的資料，還有我們的網路流量紀錄？依照王義川他的說法啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是他個人的說法，這部分我們不知道他的說法的依據、來源，不過這個案件現在臺北地檢署已經在偵辦中，我相信檢察官會依法來……"],["林委員思銘：部長，我希望毋枉毋縱，他敢這樣講，他今天敢在電視上這樣講，可見他是真的有掌握相關的資料，他說他用膝蓋就可想而知，就可以去瞭解這些資料，部長你相信嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們還是請……"],["林委員思銘：他這不是在胡說八道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為臺北地檢在偵辦，我就不評論個案的部分。"],["林委員思銘：部長，因為已經在偵辦中，我要求你毋枉毋縱，一個人可以膽大妄為，在電視上說他掌握了這些網路通訊的流量紀錄以及使用者的資料，這個是很嚴重的事，所以我希望你毋枉毋縱。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝，檢察官一定會依法妥適偵辦。"],["林委員思銘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長，謝謝副署長。接下來請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"id":"153688","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153688","tool":"pyannote","id":"153688-pyannote"},"job_id":"LDOPDfJ76m0zgKSN","queued_at":"2024-06-06 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\"料\", \"start\": 622.217, \"end\": 622.237, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 623.977, \"end\": 624.297, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 624.297, \"end\": 624.477, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 624.477, \"end\": 624.658, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 624.658, \"end\": 625.238, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 625.238, \"end\": 625.779, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 625.779, \"end\": 625.919, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 625.919, \"end\": 626.039, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 626.039, \"end\": 626.199, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 626.199, \"end\": 626.319, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 626.319, \"end\": 626.46, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 626.46, \"end\": 626.88, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"勿\"}, {\"word\": \"妄\", \"start\": 626.88, \"end\": 629.063, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"勿\"}, {\"word\": \"縱\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 629.063, \"end\": 629.223, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 629.223, \"end\": 629.343, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 629.343, \"end\": 629.443, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 629.443, \"end\": 629.523, \"score\": 0.573}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 629.523, \"end\": 629.643, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 629.643, \"end\": 630.184, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 630.184, \"end\": 630.324, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"妥\", \"start\": 630.324, \"end\": 630.464, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"偵\"}, {\"word\": \"探\", \"start\": 630.464, \"end\": 630.484, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 630.484, \"end\": 630.504, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,285 --> 00:00:08,275\n好謝謝主席我們請法務部政部長\n\n2\n00:00:11,494 --> 00:00:40,533\n委員早部長早部長我們這次修訂的通保法內當然有很多疑慮該大家也都有提出來我首先請教部長就是說我們通保法內的通訊的定義是否包括以網路通訊軟體比如說LINE或者是微信或者這個Message所傳送的文字圖片以及語音訊息有沒有包含這些通訊軟體\n\n3\n00:00:42,714 --> 00:01:07,040\n這部分不包括不包括嗎?如果說不包括的話那以我們現在國人使用手機的習慣所以我們大部分都是使用這些LINE的通訊軟體或者微信或者臉書的message來做相關的文字或者圖片這些相關的語音訊息的一個傳送\n\n4\n00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:21,577\n所以如果沒有辦法就這些網路通訊軟體的通訊內容加以監察是不是會對於我們犯罪偵查的效果就變成打折了所以這樣通保法的\n\n5\n00:01:22,642 --> 00:01:50,197\n立法跟我們昨天我們在這個當然也就這個科技偵查法我們也做相關的一個審查但是如果說對這方面的我們沒有辦法去做相關的一個去去做去我講就是如這一次的我們去把這方面的通訊做相關的一個監察是不是我們對就感覺上就好像少了什麼東西啊\n\n6\n00:01:52,372 --> 00:02:13,405\n謝謝我關心這問題事實上這些社群網路的這些的平台業者這些的通訊軟體這部分是沒辦法去因為都是加密的是所以沒辦法做通訊檢查所以部長我的感受就是說這個就變成說這個這變成防君子不防小人的溫柔立法\n\n7\n00:02:14,448 --> 00:02:15,009\n二、繼續併案審查cellence\n\n8\n00:02:35,523 --> 00:02:35,723\n媒折\n\n9\n00:02:59,972 --> 00:03:24,626\n如果真的需要這些通訊軟體的資料比如說LINE的軟體的一個通訊的一個資料我們也沒有辦法跟他們來就是說做配合我們的檢警調沒有辦法去跟這些LINE的公司來合作就是說欸因為真的我們有偵查犯罪的必要來請他們提供嗎沒有辦法合作嗎目前的話我們只用協議的一個方式啦那就要看這個整個通訊\n\n10\n00:03:26,027 --> 00:03:33,845\n軟體的社群軟體的通訊環節的業者看他們的一個配合度目前有跟他們訂任何的協議嗎目前有事\n\n11\n00:03:38,066 --> 00:04:06,966\n他另外那個以以賴的話齁以賴的話齁他我們協議是沒辦法他一定要個搜索票要用就依循序訴訟法規定申請搜索票去跟賴講說欸這邊有搜索票欸他他他才會提供而且他只能調到回溯80日齁跟連續7日的一個資料那基本上這個賴的內容都是有加密的所以事實上事實上我們只能看調到的內容還是有限還是有限喔好\n\n12\n00:04:08,103 --> 00:04:19,824\n那好這個部分當然我還是希望法務部能夠就這方面的漏洞這真的是一個漏洞看如何來做一個建制還是那個我們市長署長說補充一下\n\n13\n00:04:22,749 --> 00:04:49,231\n關於LINE的這個部分如果LINE它本身有投放廣告的話那在我們昨天大院所一讀通過的打砸專法裡面事實上就這一個平台業者他如果投放廣告的話他有相關的留存的義務跟我們跟他調取比較提供的義務所以未來如果相關的平台他有符合廣告業者的規定的話可以用新的打砸專法去調取\n\n14\n00:04:51,812 --> 00:05:08,077\n接下來我再請問我們現在的詐騙案件大多數投資詐騙的網站IP都是在境外所以部長對於這種偵查到若是國外IP的伺服器那我們是不是就都沒有辦法偵查\n\n15\n00:05:11,321 --> 00:05:20,870\n目前這部分會整個就偵辦就會遇到阻礙了是所以如何克服這部分如何克服\n\n16\n00:05:22,318 --> 00:05:39,461\n所以這樣聽起來即便有科技這幾個打法通過好像對這些境外的這些他的機房在境外的或者他是用國外的伺服器聽起來就完全我們沒有辦法去打擊所以委員就問到重點了這就是我們第三條的那個\n\n17\n00:05:40,362 --> 00:06:06,290\n增加網路流量就是網路流量的這些紀錄我們可以做來一個判斷一個分析最後追出這個IP真正的一個幕後的這些的真正的的人所以我們現在即便目前我們在國際間的形式合作有很多的一個管道不管是法務部我們有國際及兩岸法律司調查局有國際這個事務處\n\n18\n00:06:09,551 --> 00:06:31,530\n警政署也有國際組行事警察局也有國際刑警科所以我們這幾個國際的這些相關的跟國外合作的相關單位都沒有辦法對這些來自境外的這些IP去跟國外來請求協助嗎這部分這個比較專業有沒有那個我們警政署\n\n19\n00:06:34,724 --> 00:07:02,080\n那個我們是不是可以先請那個我們市長請問請問跟這個委員報告剛才講到境外的這個網路業者的部分事實上我們昨天打詐專法裡面也通過有一條要求這境外業者要在台灣准落地是他必須要到台灣設置一個法律代表人的一個機制如果他沒有設的話我們必須要高額的行政裁罰去裁罰他透過行政上的管制要求境外的業者在台灣准落地的方式去控管這些境外的業者\n\n20\n00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:29,685\n那至於司法互助的部分當然我們國家可以透過正式的司法互助去做請求但在國這個當然是緩不比較速度比較慢透過警政之間的情資交換也是一個途徑去取得相關的情資交換的情資是所以打詐專法裡面已經有相關的對這些有一個行政管制的那如果這樣的話我們警政署這屬於你們的業務吧那未來這個遇到這種情況你們未來要如何執行\n\n21\n00:07:31,397 --> 00:07:50,952\n因為現在碰到境外確實有他的困難就是說這個剛提到VNPA的斷點就是伺服器在國外所以就追不下去那我們現在可以做的第一個就我們知道他這個網路就把他封鎖第二個當然成效不一定就如果我們知道是某一個國家如果我們有駐外聯絡這個\n\n22\n00:07:52,833 --> 00:08:08,803\n我們刑事局有諸外聯絡官或許可以請求協助另外我們現在積極在爭取希望我們能夠增加加入國際刑警組織但是目前這個還在努力當中副組長我覺得我聽起來這方面真的我們目前是碰到困難\n\n23\n00:08:09,383 --> 00:08:10,244\n是是目前還有他的難度\n\n24\n00:08:33,064 --> 00:09:00,844\n是我想我時間的關係我再問最後一個問題我想我們在考慮無論是訂立科技偵查或者通保法我們總是再三考慮不要侵犯人權不要涉及個資不要收集到第三人的資料而且我們昨天的科證法也這個對於說收集到的資料我們除非認為有必要那否則要立即銷毀有必要也要在五年後要銷毀\n\n25\n00:09:02,205 --> 00:09:29,640\n所以法律是定的很嚴謹但是我們看到還是有些人可以輕易的取得這些資料就比如說這個被台北地檢署現在在偵辦的王逸川他就表明了說他對於民眾的個資他掌握的有包含性別年齡足跡數位足跡所以我要問部長他是否就掌握了通訊使用者的資料還有我們的網路流量紀錄\n\n26\n00:09:31,978 --> 00:09:51,258\n依照王一昌他的說法這是他個人的說法那這部分我們不知道他的說法的依據來源不過這個案件現在已經臺北地檢署在偵辦中我相信檢察官會依法來...部長我希望勿忘無重他敢這樣講他今天敢在電視上這樣講\n\n27\n00:09:53,951 --> 00:10:22,237\n一）可見他是真的有這個掌握相關的資料。他說他用膝蓋就可以可想而知就可以去了解這些資料。部長你相信嗎?他這不是在胡說八道嗎?所以部長我在這邊就是說因為已經在偵辦中我要求你勿忘無中。一個人可以膽大妄為在這個電視上說他掌握了這些網路通訊的流量記錄以及使用者的資料。\n\n28\n00:10:23,977 --> 00:10:30,504\n這個很嚴重的事啊所以我希望你勿妄勿縱謝謝因為檢察官一定會依法妥適偵探會參與調查謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5285\t8275\t好謝謝主席我們請法務部政部長\n11494\t40533\t委員早部長早部長我們這次修訂的通保法內當然有很多疑慮該大家也都有提出來我首先請教部長就是說我們通保法內的通訊的定義是否包括以網路通訊軟體比如說LINE或者是微信或者這個Message所傳送的文字圖片以及語音訊息有沒有包含這些通訊軟體\n42714\t67040\t這部分不包括不包括嗎?如果說不包括的話那以我們現在國人使用手機的習慣所以我們大部分都是使用這些LINE的通訊軟體或者微信或者臉書的message來做相關的文字或者圖片這些相關的語音訊息的一個傳送\n68240\t81577\t所以如果沒有辦法就這些網路通訊軟體的通訊內容加以監察是不是會對於我們犯罪偵查的效果就變成打折了所以這樣通保法的\n82642\t110197\t立法跟我們昨天我們在這個當然也就這個科技偵查法我們也做相關的一個審查但是如果說對這方面的我們沒有辦法去做相關的一個去去做去我講就是如這一次的我們去把這方面的通訊做相關的一個監察是不是我們對就感覺上就好像少了什麼東西啊\n112372\t133405\t謝謝我關心這問題事實上這些社群網路的這些的平台業者這些的通訊軟體這部分是沒辦法去因為都是加密的是所以沒辦法做通訊檢查所以部長我的感受就是說這個就變成說這個這變成防君子不防小人的溫柔立法\n134448\t135009\t二、繼續併案審查cellence\n155523\t155723\t媒折\n179972\t204626\t如果真的需要這些通訊軟體的資料比如說LINE的軟體的一個通訊的一個資料我們也沒有辦法跟他們來就是說做配合我們的檢警調沒有辦法去跟這些LINE的公司來合作就是說欸因為真的我們有偵查犯罪的必要來請他們提供嗎沒有辦法合作嗎目前的話我們只用協議的一個方式啦那就要看這個整個通訊\n206027\t213845\t軟體的社群軟體的通訊環節的業者看他們的一個配合度目前有跟他們訂任何的協議嗎目前有事\n218066\t246966\t他另外那個以以賴的話齁以賴的話齁他我們協議是沒辦法他一定要個搜索票要用就依循序訴訟法規定申請搜索票去跟賴講說欸這邊有搜索票欸他他他才會提供而且他只能調到回溯80日齁跟連續7日的一個資料那基本上這個賴的內容都是有加密的所以事實上事實上我們只能看調到的內容還是有限還是有限喔好\n248103\t259824\t那好 這個部分當然我還是希望法務部能夠就這方面的漏洞 這真的是一個漏洞看如何來做一個建制還是那個我們市長 署長說補充一下\n262749\t289231\t關於LINE的這個部分如果LINE它本身有投放廣告的話那在我們昨天大院所一讀通過的打砸專法裡面事實上就這一個平台業者他如果投放廣告的話他有相關的留存的義務跟我們跟他調取比較提供的義務所以未來如果相關的平台他有符合廣告業者的規定的話可以用新的打砸專法去調取\n291812\t308077\t接下來我再請問我們現在的詐騙案件大多數投資詐騙的網站IP都是在境外所以部長對於這種偵查到若是國外IP的伺服器那我們是不是就都沒有辦法偵查\n311321\t320870\t目前這部分會整個就偵辦就會遇到阻礙了是所以如何克服這部分如何克服\n322318\t339461\t所以這樣聽起來即便有科技這幾個打法通過好像對這些境外的這些他的機房在境外的或者他是用國外的伺服器聽起來就完全我們沒有辦法去打擊所以委員就問到重點了這就是我們第三條的那個\n340362\t366290\t增加網路流量就是網路流量的這些紀錄我們可以做來一個判斷一個分析最後追出這個IP真正的一個幕後的這些的真正的的人所以我們現在即便目前我們在國際間的形式合作有很多的一個管道不管是法務部我們有國際及兩岸法律司調查局有國際這個事務處\n369551\t391530\t警政署也有國際組行事警察局也有國際刑警科所以我們這幾個國際的這些相關的跟國外合作的相關單位都沒有辦法對這些來自境外的這些IP去跟國外來請求協助嗎這部分這個比較專業有沒有那個我們警政署\n394724\t422080\t那個我們是不是可以先請那個我們市長請問請問跟這個委員報告剛才講到境外的這個網路業者的部分事實上我們昨天打詐專法裡面也通過有一條要求這境外業者要在台灣准落地是他必須要到台灣設置一個法律代表人的一個機制如果他沒有設的話我們必須要高額的行政裁罰去裁罰他透過行政上的管制要求境外的業者在台灣准落地的方式去控管這些境外的業者\n422560\t449685\t那至於司法互助的部分當然我們國家可以透過正式的司法互助去做請求但在國這個當然是緩不比較速度比較慢透過警政之間的情資交換也是一個途徑去取得相關的情資交換的情資是所以打詐專法裡面已經有相關的對這些有一個行政管制的那如果這樣的話我們警政署這屬於你們的業務吧那未來這個遇到這種情況你們未來要如何執行\n451397\t470952\t因為現在碰到境外確實有他的困難就是說這個剛提到VNPA的斷點就是伺服器在國外所以就追不下去那我們現在可以做的第一個就我們知道他這個網路就把他封鎖第二個當然成效不一定就如果我們知道是某一個國家如果我們有駐外聯絡這個\n472833\t488803\t我們刑事局有諸外聯絡官或許可以請求協助另外我們現在積極在爭取希望我們能夠增加加入國際刑警組織但是目前這個還在努力當中副組長我覺得我聽起來這方面真的我們目前是碰到困難\n489383\t490244\t是是目前還有他的難度\n513064\t540844\t是我想我時間的關係我再問最後一個問題我想我們在考慮無論是訂立科技偵查或者通保法我們總是再三考慮不要侵犯人權不要涉及個資不要收集到第三人的資料而且我們昨天的科證法也這個對於說收集到的資料我們除非認為有必要那否則要立即銷毀有必要也要在五年後要銷毀\n542205\t569640\t所以法律是定的很嚴謹但是我們看到還是有些人可以輕易的取得這些資料就比如說這個被台北地檢署現在在偵辦的王逸川他就表明了說他對於民眾的個資他掌握的有包含性別年齡足跡數位足跡所以我要問部長他是否就掌握了通訊使用者的資料還有我們的網路流量紀錄\n571978\t591258\t依照王一昌他的說法這是他個人的說法那這部分我們不知道他的說法的依據來源不過這個案件現在已經臺北地檢署在偵辦中我相信檢察官會依法來...部長我希望勿忘無重他敢這樣講他今天敢在電視上這樣講\n593951\t622237\t一）可見他是真的有這個掌握相關的資料。他說他用膝蓋就可以可想而知就可以去了解這些資料。部長你相信嗎?他這不是在胡說八道嗎?所以部長我在這邊就是說因為已經在偵辦中我要求你勿忘無中。一個人可以膽大妄為在這個電視上說他掌握了這些網路通訊的流量記錄以及使用者的資料。\n623977\t630504\t這個很嚴重的事啊所以我希望你勿妄勿縱謝謝因為檢察官一定會依法妥適偵探會參與調查謝謝\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們請法務部政部長\n委員早部長早部長我們這次修訂的通保法內當然有很多疑慮該大家也都有提出來我首先請教部長就是說我們通保法內的通訊的定義是否包括以網路通訊軟體比如說LINE或者是微信或者這個Message所傳送的文字圖片以及語音訊息有沒有包含這些通訊軟體\n這部分不包括不包括嗎?如果說不包括的話那以我們現在國人使用手機的習慣所以我們大部分都是使用這些LINE的通訊軟體或者微信或者臉書的message來做相關的文字或者圖片這些相關的語音訊息的一個傳送\n所以如果沒有辦法就這些網路通訊軟體的通訊內容加以監察是不是會對於我們犯罪偵查的效果就變成打折了所以這樣通保法的\n立法跟我們昨天我們在這個當然也就這個科技偵查法我們也做相關的一個審查但是如果說對這方面的我們沒有辦法去做相關的一個去去做去我講就是如這一次的我們去把這方面的通訊做相關的一個監察是不是我們對就感覺上就好像少了什麼東西啊\n謝謝我關心這問題事實上這些社群網路的這些的平台業者這些的通訊軟體這部分是沒辦法去因為都是加密的是所以沒辦法做通訊檢查所以部長我的感受就是說這個就變成說這個這變成防君子不防小人的溫柔立法\n二、繼續併案審查cellence\n媒折\n如果真的需要這些通訊軟體的資料比如說LINE的軟體的一個通訊的一個資料我們也沒有辦法跟他們來就是說做配合我們的檢警調沒有辦法去跟這些LINE的公司來合作就是說欸因為真的我們有偵查犯罪的必要來請他們提供嗎沒有辦法合作嗎目前的話我們只用協議的一個方式啦那就要看這個整個通訊\n軟體的社群軟體的通訊環節的業者看他們的一個配合度目前有跟他們訂任何的協議嗎目前有事\n他另外那個以以賴的話齁以賴的話齁他我們協議是沒辦法他一定要個搜索票要用就依循序訴訟法規定申請搜索票去跟賴講說欸這邊有搜索票欸他他他才會提供而且他只能調到回溯80日齁跟連續7日的一個資料那基本上這個賴的內容都是有加密的所以事實上事實上我們只能看調到的內容還是有限還是有限喔好\n那好 這個部分當然我還是希望法務部能夠就這方面的漏洞 這真的是一個漏洞看如何來做一個建制還是那個我們市長 署長說補充一下\n關於LINE的這個部分如果LINE它本身有投放廣告的話那在我們昨天大院所一讀通過的打砸專法裡面事實上就這一個平台業者他如果投放廣告的話他有相關的留存的義務跟我們跟他調取比較提供的義務所以未來如果相關的平台他有符合廣告業者的規定的話可以用新的打砸專法去調取\n接下來我再請問我們現在的詐騙案件大多數投資詐騙的網站IP都是在境外所以部長對於這種偵查到若是國外IP的伺服器那我們是不是就都沒有辦法偵查\n目前這部分會整個就偵辦就會遇到阻礙了是所以如何克服這部分如何克服\n所以這樣聽起來即便有科技這幾個打法通過好像對這些境外的這些他的機房在境外的或者他是用國外的伺服器聽起來就完全我們沒有辦法去打擊所以委員就問到重點了這就是我們第三條的那個\n增加網路流量就是網路流量的這些紀錄我們可以做來一個判斷一個分析最後追出這個IP真正的一個幕後的這些的真正的的人所以我們現在即便目前我們在國際間的形式合作有很多的一個管道不管是法務部我們有國際及兩岸法律司調查局有國際這個事務處\n警政署也有國際組行事警察局也有國際刑警科所以我們這幾個國際的這些相關的跟國外合作的相關單位都沒有辦法對這些來自境外的這些IP去跟國外來請求協助嗎這部分這個比較專業有沒有那個我們警政署\n那個我們是不是可以先請那個我們市長請問請問跟這個委員報告剛才講到境外的這個網路業者的部分事實上我們昨天打詐專法裡面也通過有一條要求這境外業者要在台灣准落地是他必須要到台灣設置一個法律代表人的一個機制如果他沒有設的話我們必須要高額的行政裁罰去裁罰他透過行政上的管制要求境外的業者在台灣准落地的方式去控管這些境外的業者\n那至於司法互助的部分當然我們國家可以透過正式的司法互助去做請求但在國這個當然是緩不比較速度比較慢透過警政之間的情資交換也是一個途徑去取得相關的情資交換的情資是所以打詐專法裡面已經有相關的對這些有一個行政管制的那如果這樣的話我們警政署這屬於你們的業務吧那未來這個遇到這種情況你們未來要如何執行\n因為現在碰到境外確實有他的困難就是說這個剛提到VNPA的斷點就是伺服器在國外所以就追不下去那我們現在可以做的第一個就我們知道他這個網路就把他封鎖第二個當然成效不一定就如果我們知道是某一個國家如果我們有駐外聯絡這個\n我們刑事局有諸外聯絡官或許可以請求協助另外我們現在積極在爭取希望我們能夠增加加入國際刑警組織但是目前這個還在努力當中副組長我覺得我聽起來這方面真的我們目前是碰到困難\n是是目前還有他的難度\n是我想我時間的關係我再問最後一個問題我想我們在考慮無論是訂立科技偵查或者通保法我們總是再三考慮不要侵犯人權不要涉及個資不要收集到第三人的資料而且我們昨天的科證法也這個對於說收集到的資料我們除非認為有必要那否則要立即銷毀有必要也要在五年後要銷毀\n所以法律是定的很嚴謹但是我們看到還是有些人可以輕易的取得這些資料就比如說這個被台北地檢署現在在偵辦的王逸川他就表明了說他對於民眾的個資他掌握的有包含性別年齡足跡數位足跡所以我要問部長他是否就掌握了通訊使用者的資料還有我們的網路流量紀錄\n依照王一昌他的說法這是他個人的說法那這部分我們不知道他的說法的依據來源不過這個案件現在已經臺北地檢署在偵辦中我相信檢察官會依法來...部長我希望勿忘無重他敢這樣講他今天敢在電視上這樣講\n一）可見他是真的有這個掌握相關的資料。他說他用膝蓋就可以可想而知就可以去了解這些資料。部長你相信嗎?他這不是在胡說八道嗎?所以部長我在這邊就是說因為已經在偵辦中我要求你勿忘無中。一個人可以膽大妄為在這個電視上說他掌握了這些網路通訊的流量記錄以及使用者的資料。\n這個很嚴重的事啊所以我希望你勿妄勿縱謝謝因為檢察官一定會依法妥適偵探會參與調查謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.285 --> 00:08.275\n好謝謝主席我們請法務部政部長\n\n00:11.494 --> 00:40.533\n委員早部長早部長我們這次修訂的通保法內當然有很多疑慮該大家也都有提出來我首先請教部長就是說我們通保法內的通訊的定義是否包括以網路通訊軟體比如說LINE或者是微信或者這個Message所傳送的文字圖片以及語音訊息有沒有包含這些通訊軟體\n\n00:42.714 --> 01:07.040\n這部分不包括不包括嗎?如果說不包括的話那以我們現在國人使用手機的習慣所以我們大部分都是使用這些LINE的通訊軟體或者微信或者臉書的message來做相關的文字或者圖片這些相關的語音訊息的一個傳送\n\n01:08.240 --> 01:21.577\n所以如果沒有辦法就這些網路通訊軟體的通訊內容加以監察是不是會對於我們犯罪偵查的效果就變成打折了所以這樣通保法的\n\n01:22.642 --> 01:50.197\n立法跟我們昨天我們在這個當然也就這個科技偵查法我們也做相關的一個審查但是如果說對這方面的我們沒有辦法去做相關的一個去去做去我講就是如這一次的我們去把這方面的通訊做相關的一個監察是不是我們對就感覺上就好像少了什麼東西啊\n\n01:52.372 --> 02:13.405\n謝謝我關心這問題事實上這些社群網路的這些的平台業者這些的通訊軟體這部分是沒辦法去因為都是加密的是所以沒辦法做通訊檢查所以部長我的感受就是說這個就變成說這個這變成防君子不防小人的溫柔立法\n\n02:14.448 --> 02:15.009\n二、繼續併案審查cellence\n\n02:35.523 --> 02:35.723\n媒折\n\n02:59.972 --> 03:24.626\n如果真的需要這些通訊軟體的資料比如說LINE的軟體的一個通訊的一個資料我們也沒有辦法跟他們來就是說做配合我們的檢警調沒有辦法去跟這些LINE的公司來合作就是說欸因為真的我們有偵查犯罪的必要來請他們提供嗎沒有辦法合作嗎目前的話我們只用協議的一個方式啦那就要看這個整個通訊\n\n03:26.027 --> 03:33.845\n軟體的社群軟體的通訊環節的業者看他們的一個配合度目前有跟他們訂任何的協議嗎目前有事\n\n03:38.066 --> 04:06.966\n他另外那個以以賴的話齁以賴的話齁他我們協議是沒辦法他一定要個搜索票要用就依循序訴訟法規定申請搜索票去跟賴講說欸這邊有搜索票欸他他他才會提供而且他只能調到回溯80日齁跟連續7日的一個資料那基本上這個賴的內容都是有加密的所以事實上事實上我們只能看調到的內容還是有限還是有限喔好\n\n04:08.103 --> 04:19.824\n那好這個部分當然我還是希望法務部能夠就這方面的漏洞這真的是一個漏洞看如何來做一個建制還是那個我們市長署長說補充一下\n\n04:22.749 --> 04:49.231\n關於LINE的這個部分如果LINE它本身有投放廣告的話那在我們昨天大院所一讀通過的打砸專法裡面事實上就這一個平台業者他如果投放廣告的話他有相關的留存的義務跟我們跟他調取比較提供的義務所以未來如果相關的平台他有符合廣告業者的規定的話可以用新的打砸專法去調取\n\n04:51.812 --> 05:08.077\n接下來我再請問我們現在的詐騙案件大多數投資詐騙的網站IP都是在境外所以部長對於這種偵查到若是國外IP的伺服器那我們是不是就都沒有辦法偵查\n\n05:11.321 --> 05:20.870\n目前這部分會整個就偵辦就會遇到阻礙了是所以如何克服這部分如何克服\n\n05:22.318 --> 05:39.461\n所以這樣聽起來即便有科技這幾個打法通過好像對這些境外的這些他的機房在境外的或者他是用國外的伺服器聽起來就完全我們沒有辦法去打擊所以委員就問到重點了這就是我們第三條的那個\n\n05:40.362 --> 06:06.290\n增加網路流量就是網路流量的這些紀錄我們可以做來一個判斷一個分析最後追出這個IP真正的一個幕後的這些的真正的的人所以我們現在即便目前我們在國際間的形式合作有很多的一個管道不管是法務部我們有國際及兩岸法律司調查局有國際這個事務處\n\n06:09.551 --> 06:31.530\n警政署也有國際組行事警察局也有國際刑警科所以我們這幾個國際的這些相關的跟國外合作的相關單位都沒有辦法對這些來自境外的這些IP去跟國外來請求協助嗎這部分這個比較專業有沒有那個我們警政署\n\n06:34.724 --> 07:02.080\n那個我們是不是可以先請那個我們市長請問請問跟這個委員報告剛才講到境外的這個網路業者的部分事實上我們昨天打詐專法裡面也通過有一條要求這境外業者要在台灣准落地是他必須要到台灣設置一個法律代表人的一個機制如果他沒有設的話我們必須要高額的行政裁罰去裁罰他透過行政上的管制要求境外的業者在台灣准落地的方式去控管這些境外的業者\n\n07:02.560 --> 07:29.685\n那至於司法互助的部分當然我們國家可以透過正式的司法互助去做請求但在國這個當然是緩不比較速度比較慢透過警政之間的情資交換也是一個途徑去取得相關的情資交換的情資是所以打詐專法裡面已經有相關的對這些有一個行政管制的那如果這樣的話我們警政署這屬於你們的業務吧那未來這個遇到這種情況你們未來要如何執行\n\n07:31.397 --> 07:50.952\n因為現在碰到境外確實有他的困難就是說這個剛提到VNPA的斷點就是伺服器在國外所以就追不下去那我們現在可以做的第一個就我們知道他這個網路就把他封鎖第二個當然成效不一定就如果我們知道是某一個國家如果我們有駐外聯絡這個\n\n07:52.833 --> 08:08.803\n我們刑事局有諸外聯絡官或許可以請求協助另外我們現在積極在爭取希望我們能夠增加加入國際刑警組織但是目前這個還在努力當中副組長我覺得我聽起來這方面真的我們目前是碰到困難\n\n08:09.383 --> 08:10.244\n是是目前還有他的難度\n\n08:33.064 --> 09:00.844\n是我想我時間的關係我再問最後一個問題我想我們在考慮無論是訂立科技偵查或者通保法我們總是再三考慮不要侵犯人權不要涉及個資不要收集到第三人的資料而且我們昨天的科證法也這個對於說收集到的資料我們除非認為有必要那否則要立即銷毀有必要也要在五年後要銷毀\n\n09:02.205 --> 09:29.640\n所以法律是定的很嚴謹但是我們看到還是有些人可以輕易的取得這些資料就比如說這個被台北地檢署現在在偵辦的王逸川他就表明了說他對於民眾的個資他掌握的有包含性別年齡足跡數位足跡所以我要問部長他是否就掌握了通訊使用者的資料還有我們的網路流量紀錄\n\n09:31.978 --> 09:51.258\n依照王一昌他的說法這是他個人的說法那這部分我們不知道他的說法的依據來源不過這個案件現在已經臺北地檢署在偵辦中我相信檢察官會依法來...部長我希望勿忘無重他敢這樣講他今天敢在電視上這樣講\n\n09:53.951 --> 10:22.237\n一）可見他是真的有這個掌握相關的資料。他說他用膝蓋就可以可想而知就可以去了解這些資料。部長你相信嗎?他這不是在胡說八道嗎?所以部長我在這邊就是說因為已經在偵辦中我要求你勿忘無中。一個人可以膽大妄為在這個電視上說他掌握了這些網路通訊的流量記錄以及使用者的資料。\n\n10:23.977 --> 10:30.504\n這個很嚴重的事啊所以我希望你勿妄勿縱謝謝因為檢察官一定會依法妥適偵探會參與調查謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.285,"end":8.275,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請法務部政部長"},{"start":11.494,"end":40.533,"text":"委員早部長早部長我們這次修訂的通保法內當然有很多疑慮該大家也都有提出來我首先請教部長就是說我們通保法內的通訊的定義是否包括以網路通訊軟體比如說LINE或者是微信或者這個Message所傳送的文字圖片以及語音訊息有沒有包含這些通訊軟體"},{"start":42.714,"end":67.04,"text":"這部分不包括不包括嗎?如果說不包括的話那以我們現在國人使用手機的習慣所以我們大部分都是使用這些LINE的通訊軟體或者微信或者臉書的message來做相關的文字或者圖片這些相關的語音訊息的一個傳送"},{"start":68.24,"end":81.577,"text":"所以如果沒有辦法就這些網路通訊軟體的通訊內容加以監察是不是會對於我們犯罪偵查的效果就變成打折了所以這樣通保法的"},{"start":82.642,"end":110.197,"text":"立法跟我們昨天我們在這個當然也就這個科技偵查法我們也做相關的一個審查但是如果說對這方面的我們沒有辦法去做相關的一個去去做去我講就是如這一次的我們去把這方面的通訊做相關的一個監察是不是我們對就感覺上就好像少了什麼東西啊"},{"start":112.372,"end":133.405,"text":"謝謝我關心這問題事實上這些社群網路的這些的平台業者這些的通訊軟體這部分是沒辦法去因為都是加密的是所以沒辦法做通訊檢查所以部長我的感受就是說這個就變成說這個這變成防君子不防小人的溫柔立法"},{"start":134.448,"end":135.009,"text":"二、繼續併案審查cellence"},{"start":155.523,"end":155.723,"text":"媒折"},{"start":179.972,"end":204.626,"text":"如果真的需要這些通訊軟體的資料比如說LINE的軟體的一個通訊的一個資料我們也沒有辦法跟他們來就是說做配合我們的檢警調沒有辦法去跟這些LINE的公司來合作就是說欸因為真的我們有偵查犯罪的必要來請他們提供嗎沒有辦法合作嗎目前的話我們只用協議的一個方式啦那就要看這個整個通訊"},{"start":206.027,"end":213.845,"text":"軟體的社群軟體的通訊環節的業者看他們的一個配合度目前有跟他們訂任何的協議嗎目前有事"},{"start":218.066,"end":246.966,"text":"他另外那個以以賴的話齁以賴的話齁他我們協議是沒辦法他一定要個搜索票要用就依循序訴訟法規定申請搜索票去跟賴講說欸這邊有搜索票欸他他他才會提供而且他只能調到回溯80日齁跟連續7日的一個資料那基本上這個賴的內容都是有加密的所以事實上事實上我們只能看調到的內容還是有限還是有限喔好"},{"start":248.103,"end":259.824,"text":"那好 這個部分當然我還是希望法務部能夠就這方面的漏洞 這真的是一個漏洞看如何來做一個建制還是那個我們市長 署長說補充一下"},{"start":262.749,"end":289.231,"text":"關於LINE的這個部分如果LINE它本身有投放廣告的話那在我們昨天大院所一讀通過的打砸專法裡面事實上就這一個平台業者他如果投放廣告的話他有相關的留存的義務跟我們跟他調取比較提供的義務所以未來如果相關的平台他有符合廣告業者的規定的話可以用新的打砸專法去調取"},{"start":291.812,"end":308.077,"text":"接下來我再請問我們現在的詐騙案件大多數投資詐騙的網站IP都是在境外所以部長對於這種偵查到若是國外IP的伺服器那我們是不是就都沒有辦法偵查"},{"start":311.321,"end":320.87,"text":"目前這部分會整個就偵辦就會遇到阻礙了是所以如何克服這部分如何克服"},{"start":322.318,"end":339.461,"text":"所以這樣聽起來即便有科技這幾個打法通過好像對這些境外的這些他的機房在境外的或者他是用國外的伺服器聽起來就完全我們沒有辦法去打擊所以委員就問到重點了這就是我們第三條的那個"},{"start":340.362,"end":366.29,"text":"增加網路流量就是網路流量的這些紀錄我們可以做來一個判斷一個分析最後追出這個IP真正的一個幕後的這些的真正的的人所以我們現在即便目前我們在國際間的形式合作有很多的一個管道不管是法務部我們有國際及兩岸法律司調查局有國際這個事務處"},{"start":369.551,"end":391.53,"text":"警政署也有國際組行事警察局也有國際刑警科所以我們這幾個國際的這些相關的跟國外合作的相關單位都沒有辦法對這些來自境外的這些IP去跟國外來請求協助嗎這部分這個比較專業有沒有那個我們警政署"},{"start":394.724,"end":422.08,"text":"那個我們是不是可以先請那個我們市長請問請問跟這個委員報告剛才講到境外的這個網路業者的部分事實上我們昨天打詐專法裡面也通過有一條要求這境外業者要在台灣准落地是他必須要到台灣設置一個法律代表人的一個機制如果他沒有設的話我們必須要高額的行政裁罰去裁罰他透過行政上的管制要求境外的業者在台灣准落地的方式去控管這些境外的業者"},{"start":422.56,"end":449.685,"text":"那至於司法互助的部分當然我們國家可以透過正式的司法互助去做請求但在國這個當然是緩不比較速度比較慢透過警政之間的情資交換也是一個途徑去取得相關的情資交換的情資是所以打詐專法裡面已經有相關的對這些有一個行政管制的那如果這樣的話我們警政署這屬於你們的業務吧那未來這個遇到這種情況你們未來要如何執行"},{"start":451.397,"end":470.952,"text":"因為現在碰到境外確實有他的困難就是說這個剛提到VNPA的斷點就是伺服器在國外所以就追不下去那我們現在可以做的第一個就我們知道他這個網路就把他封鎖第二個當然成效不一定就如果我們知道是某一個國家如果我們有駐外聯絡這個"},{"start":472.833,"end":488.803,"text":"我們刑事局有諸外聯絡官或許可以請求協助另外我們現在積極在爭取希望我們能夠增加加入國際刑警組織但是目前這個還在努力當中副組長我覺得我聽起來這方面真的我們目前是碰到困難"},{"start":489.383,"end":490.244,"text":"是是目前還有他的難度"},{"start":513.064,"end":540.844,"text":"是我想我時間的關係我再問最後一個問題我想我們在考慮無論是訂立科技偵查或者通保法我們總是再三考慮不要侵犯人權不要涉及個資不要收集到第三人的資料而且我們昨天的科證法也這個對於說收集到的資料我們除非認為有必要那否則要立即銷毀有必要也要在五年後要銷毀"},{"start":542.205,"end":569.64,"text":"所以法律是定的很嚴謹但是我們看到還是有些人可以輕易的取得這些資料就比如說這個被台北地檢署現在在偵辦的王逸川他就表明了說他對於民眾的個資他掌握的有包含性別年齡足跡數位足跡所以我要問部長他是否就掌握了通訊使用者的資料還有我們的網路流量紀錄"},{"start":571.978,"end":591.258,"text":"依照王一昌他的說法這是他個人的說法那這部分我們不知道他的說法的依據來源不過這個案件現在已經臺北地檢署在偵辦中我相信檢察官會依法來...部長我希望勿忘無重他敢這樣講他今天敢在電視上這樣講"},{"start":593.951,"end":622.237,"text":"一）可見他是真的有這個掌握相關的資料。他說他用膝蓋就可以可想而知就可以去了解這些資料。部長你相信嗎?他這不是在胡說八道嗎?所以部長我在這邊就是說因為已經在偵辦中我要求你勿忘無中。一個人可以膽大妄為在這個電視上說他掌握了這些網路通訊的流量記錄以及使用者的資料。"},{"start":623.977,"end":630.504,"text":"這個很嚴重的事啊所以我希望你勿妄勿縱謝謝因為檢察官一定會依法妥適偵探會參與調查謝謝"}]}}}}