{"id":153695,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5c7db2dd072f937b89dbbe5275cafb4df8282b1d5b897dd1c3649d8bf9595885e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:10:51 - 10:22:37","影片長度":"00:11:46","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:10:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:22:37+08:00","duration":706,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":242,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時10分）謝謝主席，請李遠部長和彭署長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請李部長、彭署長。"],["柯委員志恩：兩位好。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，你說你自己是外省第二代的客家人，你是在很短的時間當中被迫學會台語，因為老師用台語教書嘛！沒錯吧？而且你還說你常常聽文夏的台語歌，聽不懂你會自己編歌詞，表示你的台語不錯，但是你會說客語嗎？"],["李部長遠：客語不太行。我剛剛特別提到語言就是這樣子，我小時候跟我的阿嬤是要講客語的，但是現在忘光光了，因為後來到學校要講國語，再後來我的環境是老師用台語講課，我必須學台語。所以我剛剛一直講，語言是一個滿自然的……"],["柯委員志恩：我瞭解、我瞭解，部長，我跟你說，我7歲以前都不會講國語，因為我住在非常鄉下的地方，大家都講台語，可是7歲去上學以後，我的國語說得就像外省人了，對不對？所以如果要講台語，環境最重要嘛！對不對？要怎麼教也很重要，所以我們來看現在的小孩是怎麼讀書的，好不好？高中閩南語課本，所以剛剛在爭論什麼臺灣台語，這個是部定的，就是給你寫個閩南語文，好不好？就算臺灣的台語不能寫，閩南語文這個可能要改一下。部長，你來唸唸看啦！唸高中的閩南語課本，唸看看。"],["李部長遠：「菜市仔」……"],["柯委員志恩：「菜市仔」怎麼樣？不然署長來幫忙一下，署長會嗎？有誰會嗎？這是我們高中的閩南語課本啦！有誰會嗎？「菜市仔踅煞，買兩尾烏魚轉去，𪜶翁已經煮好規桌頂的菜，包括厚工的『糋卵』。我真捀場，食袂少，呵咾逐項菜攏好食。𪜶翁一下歡喜，叫我紮兩包伊家己包的、凍好的水餃轉去。我講有食閣有掠，哪會使！阿燕姊佇邊仔姑情拜託，親像咧叫我做善事。趁𪜶翁行出灶跤的時，伊細聲講冰箱窒甲袂喘氣矣啦，那講那拍開冰箱，『Tong！』一粒高麗菜跋落來。」這就是我們高中的閩南語教材。署長、部長，你說這樣子我們的小孩可以學會台語嗎？下面這個我就不會唸了，有什麼Becca、Baby等等，然後它下面還有註解，我們往下看，各位我們來看一下註解。我們來看下面就好，「姑情」……部長，「司奶」的註解是什麼？叫做「sai-nai」，你如果都看不懂，後面還有羅馬拼音可以看，這個就是我們學台語的方法。署長跟部長，如果你花這麼多錢來告訴我這是我們學台語的方法，你說這樣小孩比較容易學，如果這是他們在課堂裡面所學的範圍，難怪很多人就把它當作是一個營養的課程，就不太會好好去上。","我完全贊同我們要把語言學好，而且要讓一些快要消失的語言振興，我都很支持，但是你們用的方法花費了321億，包括這個層面來說，我們到底得到的效果是如何，我覺得這是我們今天要討論的。萬美玲委員常常在選舉的時候都要用台語，他講的真的是「五四三」啦！這個是成效很不好的緣故嘛！就表示你有這個錢，但是你沒有花在刀口上面，我們一一來審視。你看閩南語語言的認證已經超過15年，每一次的認證考試，我說實在的，兩次的考試預算就花了我們一億多，老師拿到認證，然後到我們的學校去教台語，這個是合理的嗎？這個東西會讓我們的孩子學得好嗎？署長，你先說一下，部長，你先瞭解一下所謂你要推動的這個語言，你覺得有辦法學得很好嗎？你完全用認證的方式，這也是花費非常多錢耶！"],["彭署長富源：委員，認證的部分我先請部裡的主政單位說明一下，待會兒我把剛才你講的那個教材跟您補充一下。"],["柯委員志恩：是。很快，我還有其他的。"],["顏副司長寶月：跟委員報告，因為其實辦理有關閩南語語言認證，基本上就是要鼓勵我們更多的孩子或是民眾去參加語言的……"],["柯委員志恩：我同意啊！我告訴你從檢視基礎來說的話，通常阿公、阿嬤……或是看8點檔連續劇可能還比較好。像臺灣現在為什麼韓語這麼流行？李遠部長你可能要知道，為什麼現在有這麼多年輕人去學韓語？因為他們對於韓國的流行文化，對於他們的Kpop太喜歡，他們就很有動機性的去學習。你如果每一次要推廣這些東西，然後訴諸於……更不要說還有那麼多原住民語言，就是沒有把錢花在刀口上，這是我們要去省思的，好不好？那我只是說你做這些認證，孩子是否有辦法……","這個東西是109年文化部辦理的，就像以我來說，我跟我父母親交談的比例，可能我有50%是講台語，我可以用一半的時間跟我爸爸媽媽講台語，我和我老公在說話的時候可能有40%是用台語跟他說，我和我小孩說話的時候可能只有21.5%，所以你三代流失的比率是非常高的，這就是文化部當初所做出來的。那你更不要說其他的，像原民會的代表今天到這個地方，不管是原民會的原住民語言或是等等，當你跟父母講話可能比率是最高，跟你的配偶可能稍微降低，再把你這個語言傳承給你的孩子的時候，它的流失比例就會更大，所以就表示一個政策出來，我們的執行面是有問題的，而且我們錢也花下去了，就像我剛剛所說的這個，你如果說每個人都用這樣來學台語，我是覺得真的不用了，這是要花很多錢的，都是非常多錢的，好不好？所以我們現在還在辯論到底是臺灣台語還是閩南語的時候，你給我這種教材內容……"],["彭署長富源：委員，給我10秒。"],["柯委員志恩：好。"],["彭署長富源：語言的學習，不是一年就能夠完成所有的學習，所以它是累積的，因此他在小一開始，一直到國中有兩年等等，它是累積的啦！"],["柯委員志恩：這種內容？這種教材？這種教材？"],["彭署長富源：第二，教材的內容容或我們可以再持續的精進。第三，它裡面的學習從拼音開始學，它的內容安排儘量是以比較生活的為主，如果委員檢視那個內容，我們可以再持續成長。"],["柯委員志恩：你光是用這樣的語言，就增加我非常多的認知負荷，你用「踅」完，我光是要知道「踅」那個字，我就不知道他在講什麼，我還要在國語學完之後……你還不如給我翻成這個部分，我還可以看到這個文字，我可以直接翻成台語，所以你與其要補助，你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦！我說實在的，阿公阿嬤就是教小孩說台語最大的來源，你同意吧？"],["彭署長富源：沒錯，所以這個行政院的計畫不是只有教育領域而已，是整個社會包含甚至廣播、甚至相關節目都一起來努力，還有家庭……"],["柯委員志恩：我懂，但是這個才是教育部最需要的，好不好？改一下。"],["彭署長富源：瞭解，我們教育單位會繼續來努力。"],["柯委員志恩：你還羅馬拼音成那樣，簡直是無字天書，我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝召委的指導，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：接下來我還要問，更令人擔心，這應該是回到我們的李遠部長，最令人擔心的還是我們的原住民語還有客語，然後部長你今天說要把台語變成主流，我也同意啊！在我們高雄、屏東、臺南，台語都是主流，但是其他地方怎麼辦？還有你剛剛也說把馬祖語變成……像我們高雄有很多金門人，他說為什麼他們的金門語不是國家語言？所以你說這個對其他的語言有公平嗎？部長。"],["李部長遠：其實台語變主流，我好像沒有說吧？我沒有說這個話，在臺灣用台語的人口真的比較多。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是比較多啦！我只是強調，我們講了這麼多，你只要把國家語言擺出來，每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠，但是我覺得最重要的部分是，就像部長也同意，動機是一個問題嘛！動機是一個問題。"],["李部長遠：動機是學習主要的……"],["柯委員志恩：非常大的部分，環境是一個很大的問題，我只是凸顯出來非常多更弱勢的，像是你的母語客語，以及馬祖語、原住民語言，當每個人都在提到我們要拯救他們的時候，我們現在所做的很多方法，某種程度上，你是讓強者越強、弱者越弱，我們在討論國家語言的資源分配上面，我覺得部長你真的應該想想如何提升動機，而不是在這樣刻板的教材下面，這是整個環境、社會的一個氛圍。還有最重要的原因是，為什麼會造成這樣的結果？這可能也是署長可以回應的，因為在108課綱當中，很多老師就反映授課時數已經不足了，而且108課綱是108年1月公布，但是你把國家語言列為部定課程，是在課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的，所以你在課程發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來，會讓很多的授課還有包括很多的課程是被打亂掉的，不是嗎？"],["彭署長富源：當時在國小的部分，原來就有這樣的一個課程。"],["柯委員志恩：國小沒有問題啊！但是國高中啊！"],["彭署長富源：對，國高中的部分，在相應不增加總節數的情況下，在原來課程發展的學校課程，相關的發展過程應該是有空間，在不增加總節數，在有空間的情況下，來協助學校……"],["柯委員志恩：但是署長，你的空間很顯然跟第一線老師的認知是完全有落差的。"],["彭署長富源：瞭解。"],["柯委員志恩：這都是第一線老師所反映的，你不應該在課綱完成之後，卻因為配了一個政策，然後又給他們看這種教材，真的是不知道在讀什麼。所以如果是這種既定部分的程序，我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的想法，用什麼樣特別的方法，而不是一個政策出來，當你覺得有點窒礙難行的時候，你應該用更多彈性的方法，而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次，然後又給他們這樣的課本，我們同意大家都要談自己的母語，可是用這個方法來學習母語，我現在告訴你，即使1年、5年花了三百多億，目前為止，這個成效還是有待討論的，你同意吧？"],["彭署長富源：這個還是要持續精進，不管就課程、師資、教材，甚至整體活化他的……像浸潤式的學習，或是社會的支持，這個我們要一起努力，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：好。還有最後我要請求部長，就是對於你5年花了三百四十幾億，各族群當中，你花的錢的細項到底放到哪裡，包括認證，還有包括你的細項，請在一個月之內給我每一個經費分配的部分，我要充分瞭解，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委，部長請回。","我們接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra 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00:01:35,026\n看見沒有?\n\n7\n00:01:35,026 --> 00:01:35,367\n看見沒有?\n\n8\n00:01:52,606 --> 00:01:55,367\n斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜\n\n9\n00:02:22,438 --> 00:02:27,481\n他自己報告．黨會的主席叫我放他．我說有錢還有錢．怎麼可以．他們自己站旁邊．說有錢拜託．想要叫我做審判．趁他們外面找他的時候．他小時候告訴我平時．他家不能開．越說越開平時．一顆高麗菜．我下來了\n\n10\n00:02:50,503 --> 00:02:52,724\n這就是我們國中的閩南語。署長、部長,你說這樣小孩這樣可不可以學黑?這樣臺語,寫在下面。這下面一個,這我就不可以讀了。這就是貝卡、這是貝比、這是很多人認同的。它下面還有註解,我們往下看。各位我們來看一下註解。好,我們來看下面就好,勾結。部長撕奶,他的註解的撕奶是什麼?\n\n11\n00:03:20,350 --> 00:03:22,152\n就叫做賽奈啦。啊你還在看沒有?不要,各有羅馬拼音給我看一個。各有羅馬拼音啦。這個就是我們學臺語的方法。\n\n12\n00:03:31,420 --> 00:03:35,523\n蘇長跟部長,如果你花這麼多錢來告訴我這是我們學台語的方法,你說我們小孩怎麼會學的?所以每個難怪會認為,如果這是他們在課堂裡面所學的在那個範圍裡面,難怪很多人就把它當作是一個營養的課程,就不太去好好去上。我完全贊同,我們往下看,這是完全告訴大家的。\n\n13\n00:03:51,613 --> 00:04:00,518\n我完全贊同我們現在目前為止要把語言學好而且要讓一些這個語言快要消失要去振興我都很支持但是你們用的方法花費了321億包括這個層面來說我們到底得到的效果是如何我覺得這是我們今天要討論的外媒林委員他常常在選舉的時候他都要有的台語他要的國家語什麼真的是五四三啦\n\n14\n00:04:15,146 --> 00:04:22,073\n這是成效很不好的緣故嘛就表示你有這個錢但是你沒花在刀口上面我們一一來審視來我們往下所以呢你看你的閩南語語言的認證已經超過15年每一次的認證考試我說實在的兩次的考試預算就花了我們一億多\n\n15\n00:04:33,993 --> 00:04:38,075\n委員會先請部里的主政單位說明一下待會我把剛才你講的那個教材我跟你們補充一下是\n\n16\n00:05:03,783 --> 00:05:18,309\n很快,我還有其他的跟委員報告,因為其實基本上辦理有關閩南語語言認證基本上就是要鼓勵我們更多的孩子或是民眾去參加一個語言的一個檢射的一個我同意啊,我告訴你檢視的基礎來說的話通常阿公阿嬤跨八點檔連續劇,可憐可咖賀啦像很多的我們台灣為什麼像韓語這麼流行\n\n17\n00:05:24,571 --> 00:05:28,232\n李遠部長你可能要知道為什麼這麼多現在年輕人去學韓語因為他們對於韓國的流行文化他們K-pop他們太喜歡他們就非常的很有動機性的去學習你如果每一次你要推廣這些東西然後訴諸於剛剛不要說那麼多原住語言這是把錢沒有花在包裹上這是我們要去審思的好不好那我只是說你做這些認證讓孩子是否有沒有辦法那這個東西就是在109年是文化部所辦理\n\n18\n00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,305\n就算以我來說我跟我父母親交談的比例可能我講台語可能有50%我可能一般的時間好像爸爸媽媽講台語我好像這樣講話可能是40%我用台語跟他們講我好像孩子講話可能只有21.5%所以你三代流失的比率是非常高的這就是\n\n19\n00:06:09,184 --> 00:06:16,989\n文化部當初所做出來那你更不要做看其他原民會的代表到這個地方不管是原民會的原住民語言或是等等當你跟父母講話可能比率是最高跟你的配偶可能已經稍微降低再把你這個語言傳承給你的孩子的時候他的比率流失的比率就會更大\n\n20\n00:06:27,956 --> 00:06:27,976\n給我10秒\n\n21\n00:06:49,244 --> 00:07:15,459\n語言的學習它不是一年就能夠完成所有的學習所以它是累積的因此它在小一開始一直到國中有兩年等等等等它是累積的這種內容這種教材第二教材的內容融獲我們可以再持續的精進第三它裡面的學習從拼音開始學它的內容的安排盡量是以比較生活的這件事如果有人檢視那個內容我們可以再去\n\n22\n00:07:15,899 --> 00:07:27,182\n你的解釋、你的語言你光是用這樣的語言就增加我非常多的認知、負荷、洗料你洗料我光是要知道那個say那個字我都不知道你是在說什麼我還要在國語完之後你還不如給我翻成這個部分我還可以看到這個文字我可以直接翻成台語所以你與其要補助你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦我說實在的阿公阿嬤開始要教孩子講台語最大來源啦你同意吧\n\n23\n00:07:42,526 --> 00:07:50,050\n所以這個行政院的這個計畫不是只有教育領域而已是整個社會包括像這個廣播甚至相關節目都一起來努力但是這個才是一個教育部最需要的好不好改一下你還羅馬拼音程那個簡直是無字天書我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分接下來我還要問嘛\n\n24\n00:08:05,458 --> 00:08:05,478\n部長﹗\n\n25\n00:08:34,192 --> 00:08:37,894\n其實台語變主流我好像沒有說吧我沒有說這個話在台灣用台語的人口真的比較多當然是比較多啦我只是強調我們講了這麼多你只要把國家語言擺出來每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠但是我覺得最重要的部分是就像部長也同意嘛動機是一個問題嘛\n\n26\n00:09:14,980 --> 00:09:15,120\n獲得獲得獲得獲得\n\n27\n00:09:40,862 --> 00:09:45,504\n已經不足了而且你108課綱是108一月公布但是呢你把國家語言列為不定課程是課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的所以你會造成很多人在這個課程的發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來會很多的授課族還有包括很多的整個課程是打亂掉的不是嗎\n\n28\n00:10:03,519 --> 00:10:08,842\n在國小的部分他原來就有這樣的一個課程國小沒有問題啊但是你國高中啊對國高中的部分在相應不增加總結束的情況下那麼在原來課程發展的學校課程相關的發展過程啊應該是有空間這樣有空間的情況在不增加總結束在有空間的情況下但是署長你的空間很顯然跟第一線的老師的認知是完全是有一些落差的\n\n29\n00:10:30,055 --> 00:10:58,425\n這就是第一線老師所反映,你不應該在玩之後,因為配合的一個政策之後,然後又給我,哥給我看這款欸,真的不知道要說什麼話欸。所以說,我覺得是,如果是以這樣的部分裡面既定的部分的程序,我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的一個想法,用什麼樣的特別的方法,而不是一個政策出來,當你覺得有點至愛難行的時候,你應該用各多的彈性的方法,而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次,然後又給我們這樣的一個課本。\n\n30\n00:10:59,605 --> 00:11:00,845\n我現在告訴你即使一年五年花了三百多億目前為止這個成效還是有待討論的你同意吧\n\n31\n00:11:14,331 --> 00:11:26,038\n這個還是要持續精進不管就課程、私自教材甚至整體活化他的像金潤式的學習或是社會的支持這個我們一起努力還有最後我要請求部長就是對於你五年花了三百四十幾億各族群當中你花的錢的細項到底放在哪裡包括是認證還有包括你的一個細項請在一個月之內給我每一個經費的評分的一個部分我要充分了解\n\n32\n00:11:42,970 --> 00:11:43,272\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t970\t請李院部長和彭署長\n16352\t25756\t兩位好,那個部長你說你是自己是外省的第二代的客家人你都在很短的時間當中被迫去學會臺語因為老師都用臺語教書嘛,沒錯吧而且你還說你常聽文夏的臺語歌聽不懂也會自己編歌詞所以表示你的台語不錯吧\n34999\t41423\t但是你的客語可以說嗎?客語不太行,其實我剛才特別提到語言就是這樣子我小時候跟我的阿嬤是要講客語的,不像我萬光光的因為後來我們到學校講國語,後來我的環境是老師用臺語講課我必須學臺語,所以我剛才一直講語言是一個...我瞭解我瞭解,部長我跟你說我到7月以前我還不能說國語因為整課,很多整課的大家都說台語,我到7月以前\n63274\t64235\t部長,你來看一看\n92585\t94386\t高中的閩南語課本,看見沒有?\n94386\t95026\t看見沒有?\n95026\t95367\t看見沒有?\n112606\t115367\t斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜\n142438\t147481\t他自己報告．黨會的主席叫我放他．我說有錢還有錢．怎麼可以．他們自己站旁邊．說有錢拜託．想要叫我做審判．趁他們外面找他的時候．他小時候告訴我平時．他家不能開．越說越開平時．一顆高麗菜．我下來了\n170503\t172724\t這就是我們國中的閩南語。署長、部長,你說這樣小孩這樣可不可以學黑?這樣臺語,寫在下面。這下面一個,這我就不可以讀了。這就是貝卡、這是貝比、這是很多人認同的。它下面還有註解,我們往下看。各位我們來看一下註解。好,我們來看下面就好,勾結。部長撕奶,他的註解的撕奶是什麼?\n200350\t202152\t就叫做賽奈啦。啊你還在看沒有?不要,各有羅馬拼音給我看一個。各有羅馬拼音啦。這個就是我們學臺語的方法。\n211420\t215523\t蘇長跟部長,如果你花這麼多錢來告訴我這是我們學台語的方法,你說我們小孩怎麼會學的?所以每個難怪會認為,如果這是他們在課堂裡面所學的在那個範圍裡面,難怪很多人就把它當作是一個營養的課程,就不太去好好去上。我完全贊同,我們往下看,這是完全告訴大家的。\n231613\t240518\t我完全贊同我們現在目前為止要把語言學好而且要讓一些這個語言快要消失要去振興我都很支持但是你們用的方法花費了321億包括這個層面來說我們到底得到的效果是如何我覺得這是我們今天要討論的外媒林委員他常常在選舉的時候他都要有的台語他要的國家語什麼真的是五四三啦\n255146\t262073\t這是成效很不好的緣故嘛就表示你有這個錢但是你沒花在刀口上面我們一一來審視來我們往下所以呢你看你的閩南語語言的認證已經超過15年每一次的認證考試我說實在的兩次的考試預算就花了我們一億多\n273993\t278075\t委員會先請部里的主政單位說明一下待會我把剛才你講的那個教材我跟你們補充一下是\n303783\t318309\t很快,我還有其他的跟委員報告,因為其實基本上辦理有關閩南語語言認證基本上就是要鼓勵我們更多的孩子或是民眾去參加一個語言的一個檢射的一個我同意啊,我告訴你檢視的基礎來說的話通常阿公阿嬤跨八點檔連續劇,可憐可咖賀啦像很多的我們台灣為什麼像韓語這麼流行\n324571\t328232\t李遠部長你可能要知道為什麼這麼多現在年輕人去學韓語因為他們對於韓國的流行文化他們K-pop他們太喜歡他們就非常的很有動機性的去學習你如果每一次你要推廣這些東西然後訴諸於剛剛不要說那麼多原住語言這是把錢沒有花在包裹上這是我們要去審思的好不好那我只是說你做這些認證讓孩子是否有沒有辦法那這個東西就是在109年是文化部所辦理\n350640\t354305\t就算以我來說我跟我父母親交談的比例可能我講台語可能有50%我可能一般的時間好像爸爸媽媽講台語我好像這樣講話可能是40%我用台語跟他們講我好像孩子講話可能只有21.5%所以你三代流失的比率是非常高的這就是\n369184\t376989\t文化部當初所做出來那你更不要做看其他原民會的代表到這個地方不管是原民會的原住民語言或是等等當你跟父母講話可能比率是最高跟你的配偶可能已經稍微降低再把你這個語言傳承給你的孩子的時候他的比率流失的比率就會更大\n387956\t387976\t給我10秒\n409244\t435459\t語言的學習它不是一年就能夠完成所有的學習所以它是累積的因此它在小一開始一直到國中有兩年等等等等它是累積的這種內容這種教材第二教材的內容融獲我們可以再持續的精進第三它裡面的學習從拼音開始學它的內容的安排盡量是以比較生活的這件事如果有人檢視那個內容我們可以再去\n435899\t447182\t你的解釋、你的語言你光是用這樣的語言就增加我非常多的認知、負荷、洗料你洗料我光是要知道那個say那個字我都不知道你是在說什麼我還要在國語完之後你還不如給我翻成這個部分我還可以看到這個文字我可以直接翻成台語所以你與其要補助你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦我說實在的阿公阿嬤開始要教孩子講台語最大來源啦你同意吧\n462526\t470050\t所以這個行政院的這個計畫不是只有教育領域而已是整個社會包括像這個廣播甚至相關節目都一起來努力但是這個才是一個教育部最需要的好不好改一下你還羅馬拼音程那個簡直是無字天書我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分接下來我還要問嘛\n485458\t485478\t部長﹗\n514192\t517894\t其實台語變主流我好像沒有說吧我沒有說這個話在台灣用台語的人口真的比較多當然是比較多啦我只是強調我們講了這麼多你只要把國家語言擺出來每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠但是我覺得最重要的部分是就像部長也同意嘛動機是一個問題嘛\n538148\t554940\t⋯⋯⋯\n554980\t555120\t獲得獲得獲得獲得\n580862\t585504\t已經不足了而且你108課綱是108一月公布但是呢你把國家語言列為不定課程是課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的所以你會造成很多人在這個課程的發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來會很多的授課族還有包括很多的整個課程是打亂掉的不是嗎\n603519\t608842\t在國小的部分他原來就有這樣的一個課程國小沒有問題啊但是你國高中啊對 國高中的部分在相應不增加總結束的情況下那麼在原來課程發展的學校課程相關的發展過程啊應該是有空間這樣有空間的情況在不增加總結束在有空間的情況下但是署長你的空間很顯然跟第一線的老師的認知是完全是有一些落差的\n630055\t658425\t這就是第一線老師所反映,你不應該在玩之後,因為配合的一個政策之後,然後又給我,哥給我看這款欸,真的不知道要說什麼話欸。所以說,我覺得是,如果是以這樣的部分裡面既定的部分的程序,我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的一個想法,用什麼樣的特別的方法,而不是一個政策出來,當你覺得有點至愛難行的時候,你應該用各多的彈性的方法,而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次,然後又給我們這樣的一個課本。\n659605\t660845\t我現在告訴你即使一年五年花了三百多億目前為止這個成效還是有待討論的你同意吧\n674331\t686038\t這個還是要持續精進不管就課程、私自教材甚至整體活化他的像金潤式的學習或是社會的支持這個我們一起努力還有最後我要請求部長就是對於你五年花了三百四十幾億各族群當中你花的錢的細項到底放在哪裡包括是認證還有包括你的一個細項請在一個月之內給我每一個經費的評分的一個部分我要充分了解\n702970\t703272\t主席\n","txt":"請李院部長和彭署長\n兩位好,那個部長你說你是自己是外省的第二代的客家人你都在很短的時間當中被迫去學會臺語因為老師都用臺語教書嘛,沒錯吧而且你還說你常聽文夏的臺語歌聽不懂也會自己編歌詞所以表示你的台語不錯吧\n但是你的客語可以說嗎?客語不太行,其實我剛才特別提到語言就是這樣子我小時候跟我的阿嬤是要講客語的,不像我萬光光的因為後來我們到學校講國語,後來我的環境是老師用臺語講課我必須學臺語,所以我剛才一直講語言是一個...我瞭解我瞭解,部長我跟你說我到7月以前我還不能說國語因為整課,很多整課的大家都說台語,我到7月以前\n部長,你來看一看\n高中的閩南語課本,看見沒有?\n看見沒有?\n看見沒有?\n斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜\n他自己報告．黨會的主席叫我放他．我說有錢還有錢．怎麼可以．他們自己站旁邊．說有錢拜託．想要叫我做審判．趁他們外面找他的時候．他小時候告訴我平時．他家不能開．越說越開平時．一顆高麗菜．我下來了\n這就是我們國中的閩南語。署長、部長,你說這樣小孩這樣可不可以學黑?這樣臺語,寫在下面。這下面一個,這我就不可以讀了。這就是貝卡、這是貝比、這是很多人認同的。它下面還有註解,我們往下看。各位我們來看一下註解。好,我們來看下面就好,勾結。部長撕奶,他的註解的撕奶是什麼?\n就叫做賽奈啦。啊你還在看沒有?不要,各有羅馬拼音給我看一個。各有羅馬拼音啦。這個就是我們學臺語的方法。\n蘇長跟部長,如果你花這麼多錢來告訴我這是我們學台語的方法,你說我們小孩怎麼會學的?所以每個難怪會認為,如果這是他們在課堂裡面所學的在那個範圍裡面,難怪很多人就把它當作是一個營養的課程,就不太去好好去上。我完全贊同,我們往下看,這是完全告訴大家的。\n我完全贊同我們現在目前為止要把語言學好而且要讓一些這個語言快要消失要去振興我都很支持但是你們用的方法花費了321億包括這個層面來說我們到底得到的效果是如何我覺得這是我們今天要討論的外媒林委員他常常在選舉的時候他都要有的台語他要的國家語什麼真的是五四三啦\n這是成效很不好的緣故嘛就表示你有這個錢但是你沒花在刀口上面我們一一來審視來我們往下所以呢你看你的閩南語語言的認證已經超過15年每一次的認證考試我說實在的兩次的考試預算就花了我們一億多\n委員會先請部里的主政單位說明一下待會我把剛才你講的那個教材我跟你們補充一下是\n很快,我還有其他的跟委員報告,因為其實基本上辦理有關閩南語語言認證基本上就是要鼓勵我們更多的孩子或是民眾去參加一個語言的一個檢射的一個我同意啊,我告訴你檢視的基礎來說的話通常阿公阿嬤跨八點檔連續劇,可憐可咖賀啦像很多的我們台灣為什麼像韓語這麼流行\n李遠部長你可能要知道為什麼這麼多現在年輕人去學韓語因為他們對於韓國的流行文化他們K-pop他們太喜歡他們就非常的很有動機性的去學習你如果每一次你要推廣這些東西然後訴諸於剛剛不要說那麼多原住語言這是把錢沒有花在包裹上這是我們要去審思的好不好那我只是說你做這些認證讓孩子是否有沒有辦法那這個東西就是在109年是文化部所辦理\n就算以我來說我跟我父母親交談的比例可能我講台語可能有50%我可能一般的時間好像爸爸媽媽講台語我好像這樣講話可能是40%我用台語跟他們講我好像孩子講話可能只有21.5%所以你三代流失的比率是非常高的這就是\n文化部當初所做出來那你更不要做看其他原民會的代表到這個地方不管是原民會的原住民語言或是等等當你跟父母講話可能比率是最高跟你的配偶可能已經稍微降低再把你這個語言傳承給你的孩子的時候他的比率流失的比率就會更大\n給我10秒\n語言的學習它不是一年就能夠完成所有的學習所以它是累積的因此它在小一開始一直到國中有兩年等等等等它是累積的這種內容這種教材第二教材的內容融獲我們可以再持續的精進第三它裡面的學習從拼音開始學它的內容的安排盡量是以比較生活的這件事如果有人檢視那個內容我們可以再去\n你的解釋、你的語言你光是用這樣的語言就增加我非常多的認知、負荷、洗料你洗料我光是要知道那個say那個字我都不知道你是在說什麼我還要在國語完之後你還不如給我翻成這個部分我還可以看到這個文字我可以直接翻成台語所以你與其要補助你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦我說實在的阿公阿嬤開始要教孩子講台語最大來源啦你同意吧\n所以這個行政院的這個計畫不是只有教育領域而已是整個社會包括像這個廣播甚至相關節目都一起來努力但是這個才是一個教育部最需要的好不好改一下你還羅馬拼音程那個簡直是無字天書我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分接下來我還要問嘛\n部長﹗\n其實台語變主流我好像沒有說吧我沒有說這個話在台灣用台語的人口真的比較多當然是比較多啦我只是強調我們講了這麼多你只要把國家語言擺出來每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠但是我覺得最重要的部分是就像部長也同意嘛動機是一個問題嘛\n⋯⋯⋯\n獲得獲得獲得獲得\n已經不足了而且你108課綱是108一月公布但是呢你把國家語言列為不定課程是課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的所以你會造成很多人在這個課程的發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來會很多的授課族還有包括很多的整個課程是打亂掉的不是嗎\n在國小的部分他原來就有這樣的一個課程國小沒有問題啊但是你國高中啊對 國高中的部分在相應不增加總結束的情況下那麼在原來課程發展的學校課程相關的發展過程啊應該是有空間這樣有空間的情況在不增加總結束在有空間的情況下但是署長你的空間很顯然跟第一線的老師的認知是完全是有一些落差的\n這就是第一線老師所反映,你不應該在玩之後,因為配合的一個政策之後,然後又給我,哥給我看這款欸,真的不知道要說什麼話欸。所以說,我覺得是,如果是以這樣的部分裡面既定的部分的程序,我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的一個想法,用什麼樣的特別的方法,而不是一個政策出來,當你覺得有點至愛難行的時候,你應該用各多的彈性的方法,而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次,然後又給我們這樣的一個課本。\n我現在告訴你即使一年五年花了三百多億目前為止這個成效還是有待討論的你同意吧\n這個還是要持續精進不管就課程、私自教材甚至整體活化他的像金潤式的學習或是社會的支持這個我們一起努力還有最後我要請求部長就是對於你五年花了三百四十幾億各族群當中你花的錢的細項到底放在哪裡包括是認證還有包括你的一個細項請在一個月之內給我每一個經費的評分的一個部分我要充分了解\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:00.970\n請李院部長和彭署長\n\n00:16.352 --> 00:25.756\n兩位好,那個部長你說你是自己是外省的第二代的客家人你都在很短的時間當中被迫去學會臺語因為老師都用臺語教書嘛,沒錯吧而且你還說你常聽文夏的臺語歌聽不懂也會自己編歌詞所以表示你的台語不錯吧\n\n00:34.999 --> 00:41.423\n但是你的客語可以說嗎?客語不太行,其實我剛才特別提到語言就是這樣子我小時候跟我的阿嬤是要講客語的,不像我萬光光的因為後來我們到學校講國語,後來我的環境是老師用臺語講課我必須學臺語,所以我剛才一直講語言是一個...我瞭解我瞭解,部長我跟你說我到7月以前我還不能說國語因為整課,很多整課的大家都說台語,我到7月以前\n\n01:03.274 --> 01:04.235\n部長,你來看一看\n\n01:32.585 --> 01:34.386\n高中的閩南語課本,看見沒有?\n\n01:34.386 --> 01:35.026\n看見沒有?\n\n01:35.026 --> 01:35.367\n看見沒有?\n\n01:52.606 --> 01:55.367\n斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜\n\n02:22.438 --> 02:27.481\n他自己報告．黨會的主席叫我放他．我說有錢還有錢．怎麼可以．他們自己站旁邊．說有錢拜託．想要叫我做審判．趁他們外面找他的時候．他小時候告訴我平時．他家不能開．越說越開平時．一顆高麗菜．我下來了\n\n02:50.503 --> 02:52.724\n這就是我們國中的閩南語。署長、部長,你說這樣小孩這樣可不可以學黑?這樣臺語,寫在下面。這下面一個,這我就不可以讀了。這就是貝卡、這是貝比、這是很多人認同的。它下面還有註解,我們往下看。各位我們來看一下註解。好,我們來看下面就好,勾結。部長撕奶,他的註解的撕奶是什麼?\n\n03:20.350 --> 03:22.152\n就叫做賽奈啦。啊你還在看沒有?不要,各有羅馬拼音給我看一個。各有羅馬拼音啦。這個就是我們學臺語的方法。\n\n03:31.420 --> 03:35.523\n蘇長跟部長,如果你花這麼多錢來告訴我這是我們學台語的方法,你說我們小孩怎麼會學的?所以每個難怪會認為,如果這是他們在課堂裡面所學的在那個範圍裡面,難怪很多人就把它當作是一個營養的課程,就不太去好好去上。我完全贊同,我們往下看,這是完全告訴大家的。\n\n03:51.613 --> 04:00.518\n我完全贊同我們現在目前為止要把語言學好而且要讓一些這個語言快要消失要去振興我都很支持但是你們用的方法花費了321億包括這個層面來說我們到底得到的效果是如何我覺得這是我們今天要討論的外媒林委員他常常在選舉的時候他都要有的台語他要的國家語什麼真的是五四三啦\n\n04:15.146 --> 04:22.073\n這是成效很不好的緣故嘛就表示你有這個錢但是你沒花在刀口上面我們一一來審視來我們往下所以呢你看你的閩南語語言的認證已經超過15年每一次的認證考試我說實在的兩次的考試預算就花了我們一億多\n\n04:33.993 --> 04:38.075\n委員會先請部里的主政單位說明一下待會我把剛才你講的那個教材我跟你們補充一下是\n\n05:03.783 --> 05:18.309\n很快,我還有其他的跟委員報告,因為其實基本上辦理有關閩南語語言認證基本上就是要鼓勵我們更多的孩子或是民眾去參加一個語言的一個檢射的一個我同意啊,我告訴你檢視的基礎來說的話通常阿公阿嬤跨八點檔連續劇,可憐可咖賀啦像很多的我們台灣為什麼像韓語這麼流行\n\n05:24.571 --> 05:28.232\n李遠部長你可能要知道為什麼這麼多現在年輕人去學韓語因為他們對於韓國的流行文化他們K-pop他們太喜歡他們就非常的很有動機性的去學習你如果每一次你要推廣這些東西然後訴諸於剛剛不要說那麼多原住語言這是把錢沒有花在包裹上這是我們要去審思的好不好那我只是說你做這些認證讓孩子是否有沒有辦法那這個東西就是在109年是文化部所辦理\n\n05:50.640 --> 05:54.305\n就算以我來說我跟我父母親交談的比例可能我講台語可能有50%我可能一般的時間好像爸爸媽媽講台語我好像這樣講話可能是40%我用台語跟他們講我好像孩子講話可能只有21.5%所以你三代流失的比率是非常高的這就是\n\n06:09.184 --> 06:16.989\n文化部當初所做出來那你更不要做看其他原民會的代表到這個地方不管是原民會的原住民語言或是等等當你跟父母講話可能比率是最高跟你的配偶可能已經稍微降低再把你這個語言傳承給你的孩子的時候他的比率流失的比率就會更大\n\n06:27.956 --> 06:27.976\n給我10秒\n\n06:49.244 --> 07:15.459\n語言的學習它不是一年就能夠完成所有的學習所以它是累積的因此它在小一開始一直到國中有兩年等等等等它是累積的這種內容這種教材第二教材的內容融獲我們可以再持續的精進第三它裡面的學習從拼音開始學它的內容的安排盡量是以比較生活的這件事如果有人檢視那個內容我們可以再去\n\n07:15.899 --> 07:27.182\n你的解釋、你的語言你光是用這樣的語言就增加我非常多的認知、負荷、洗料你洗料我光是要知道那個say那個字我都不知道你是在說什麼我還要在國語完之後你還不如給我翻成這個部分我還可以看到這個文字我可以直接翻成台語所以你與其要補助你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦我說實在的阿公阿嬤開始要教孩子講台語最大來源啦你同意吧\n\n07:42.526 --> 07:50.050\n所以這個行政院的這個計畫不是只有教育領域而已是整個社會包括像這個廣播甚至相關節目都一起來努力但是這個才是一個教育部最需要的好不好改一下你還羅馬拼音程那個簡直是無字天書我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分接下來我還要問嘛\n\n08:05.458 --> 08:05.478\n部長﹗\n\n08:34.192 --> 08:37.894\n其實台語變主流我好像沒有說吧我沒有說這個話在台灣用台語的人口真的比較多當然是比較多啦我只是強調我們講了這麼多你只要把國家語言擺出來每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠但是我覺得最重要的部分是就像部長也同意嘛動機是一個問題嘛\n\n09:14.980 --> 09:15.120\n獲得獲得獲得獲得\n\n09:40.862 --> 09:45.504\n已經不足了而且你108課綱是108一月公布但是呢你把國家語言列為不定課程是課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的所以你會造成很多人在這個課程的發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來會很多的授課族還有包括很多的整個課程是打亂掉的不是嗎\n\n10:03.519 --> 10:08.842\n在國小的部分他原來就有這樣的一個課程國小沒有問題啊但是你國高中啊對國高中的部分在相應不增加總結束的情況下那麼在原來課程發展的學校課程相關的發展過程啊應該是有空間這樣有空間的情況在不增加總結束在有空間的情況下但是署長你的空間很顯然跟第一線的老師的認知是完全是有一些落差的\n\n10:30.055 --> 10:58.425\n這就是第一線老師所反映,你不應該在玩之後,因為配合的一個政策之後,然後又給我,哥給我看這款欸,真的不知道要說什麼話欸。所以說,我覺得是,如果是以這樣的部分裡面既定的部分的程序,我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的一個想法,用什麼樣的特別的方法,而不是一個政策出來,當你覺得有點至愛難行的時候,你應該用各多的彈性的方法,而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次,然後又給我們這樣的一個課本。\n\n10:59.605 --> 11:00.845\n我現在告訴你即使一年五年花了三百多億目前為止這個成效還是有待討論的你同意吧\n\n11:14.331 --> 11:26.038\n這個還是要持續精進不管就課程、私自教材甚至整體活化他的像金潤式的學習或是社會的支持這個我們一起努力還有最後我要請求部長就是對於你五年花了三百四十幾億各族群當中你花的錢的細項到底放在哪裡包括是認證還有包括你的一個細項請在一個月之內給我每一個經費的評分的一個部分我要充分了解\n\n11:42.970 --> 11:43.272\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":0.97,"text":"請李院部長和彭署長"},{"start":16.352,"end":25.756,"text":"兩位好,那個部長你說你是自己是外省的第二代的客家人你都在很短的時間當中被迫去學會臺語因為老師都用臺語教書嘛,沒錯吧而且你還說你常聽文夏的臺語歌聽不懂也會自己編歌詞所以表示你的台語不錯吧"},{"start":34.999,"end":41.423,"text":"但是你的客語可以說嗎?客語不太行,其實我剛才特別提到語言就是這樣子我小時候跟我的阿嬤是要講客語的,不像我萬光光的因為後來我們到學校講國語,後來我的環境是老師用臺語講課我必須學臺語,所以我剛才一直講語言是一個...我瞭解我瞭解,部長我跟你說我到7月以前我還不能說國語因為整課,很多整課的大家都說台語,我到7月以前"},{"start":63.274,"end":64.235,"text":"部長,你來看一看"},{"start":92.585,"end":94.386,"text":"高中的閩南語課本,看見沒有?"},{"start":94.386,"end":95.026,"text":"看見沒有?"},{"start":95.026,"end":95.367,"text":"看見沒有?"},{"start":112.606,"end":115.367,"text":"斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜斜"},{"start":142.438,"end":147.481,"text":"他自己報告．黨會的主席叫我放他．我說有錢還有錢．怎麼可以．他們自己站旁邊．說有錢拜託．想要叫我做審判．趁他們外面找他的時候．他小時候告訴我平時．他家不能開．越說越開平時．一顆高麗菜．我下來了"},{"start":170.503,"end":172.724,"text":"這就是我們國中的閩南語。署長、部長,你說這樣小孩這樣可不可以學黑?這樣臺語,寫在下面。這下面一個,這我就不可以讀了。這就是貝卡、這是貝比、這是很多人認同的。它下面還有註解,我們往下看。各位我們來看一下註解。好,我們來看下面就好,勾結。部長撕奶,他的註解的撕奶是什麼?"},{"start":200.35,"end":202.152,"text":"就叫做賽奈啦。啊你還在看沒有?不要,各有羅馬拼音給我看一個。各有羅馬拼音啦。這個就是我們學臺語的方法。"},{"start":211.42,"end":215.523,"text":"蘇長跟部長,如果你花這麼多錢來告訴我這是我們學台語的方法,你說我們小孩怎麼會學的?所以每個難怪會認為,如果這是他們在課堂裡面所學的在那個範圍裡面,難怪很多人就把它當作是一個營養的課程,就不太去好好去上。我完全贊同,我們往下看,這是完全告訴大家的。"},{"start":231.613,"end":240.518,"text":"我完全贊同我們現在目前為止要把語言學好而且要讓一些這個語言快要消失要去振興我都很支持但是你們用的方法花費了321億包括這個層面來說我們到底得到的效果是如何我覺得這是我們今天要討論的外媒林委員他常常在選舉的時候他都要有的台語他要的國家語什麼真的是五四三啦"},{"start":255.146,"end":262.073,"text":"這是成效很不好的緣故嘛就表示你有這個錢但是你沒花在刀口上面我們一一來審視來我們往下所以呢你看你的閩南語語言的認證已經超過15年每一次的認證考試我說實在的兩次的考試預算就花了我們一億多"},{"start":273.993,"end":278.075,"text":"委員會先請部里的主政單位說明一下待會我把剛才你講的那個教材我跟你們補充一下是"},{"start":303.783,"end":318.309,"text":"很快,我還有其他的跟委員報告,因為其實基本上辦理有關閩南語語言認證基本上就是要鼓勵我們更多的孩子或是民眾去參加一個語言的一個檢射的一個我同意啊,我告訴你檢視的基礎來說的話通常阿公阿嬤跨八點檔連續劇,可憐可咖賀啦像很多的我們台灣為什麼像韓語這麼流行"},{"start":324.571,"end":328.232,"text":"李遠部長你可能要知道為什麼這麼多現在年輕人去學韓語因為他們對於韓國的流行文化他們K-pop他們太喜歡他們就非常的很有動機性的去學習你如果每一次你要推廣這些東西然後訴諸於剛剛不要說那麼多原住語言這是把錢沒有花在包裹上這是我們要去審思的好不好那我只是說你做這些認證讓孩子是否有沒有辦法那這個東西就是在109年是文化部所辦理"},{"start":350.64,"end":354.305,"text":"就算以我來說我跟我父母親交談的比例可能我講台語可能有50%我可能一般的時間好像爸爸媽媽講台語我好像這樣講話可能是40%我用台語跟他們講我好像孩子講話可能只有21.5%所以你三代流失的比率是非常高的這就是"},{"start":369.184,"end":376.989,"text":"文化部當初所做出來那你更不要做看其他原民會的代表到這個地方不管是原民會的原住民語言或是等等當你跟父母講話可能比率是最高跟你的配偶可能已經稍微降低再把你這個語言傳承給你的孩子的時候他的比率流失的比率就會更大"},{"start":387.956,"end":387.976,"text":"給我10秒"},{"start":409.244,"end":435.459,"text":"語言的學習它不是一年就能夠完成所有的學習所以它是累積的因此它在小一開始一直到國中有兩年等等等等它是累積的這種內容這種教材第二教材的內容融獲我們可以再持續的精進第三它裡面的學習從拼音開始學它的內容的安排盡量是以比較生活的這件事如果有人檢視那個內容我們可以再去"},{"start":435.899,"end":447.182,"text":"你的解釋、你的語言你光是用這樣的語言就增加我非常多的認知、負荷、洗料你洗料我光是要知道那個say那個字我都不知道你是在說什麼我還要在國語完之後你還不如給我翻成這個部分我還可以看到這個文字我可以直接翻成台語所以你與其要補助你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦我說實在的阿公阿嬤開始要教孩子講台語最大來源啦你同意吧"},{"start":462.526,"end":470.05,"text":"所以這個行政院的這個計畫不是只有教育領域而已是整個社會包括像這個廣播甚至相關節目都一起來努力但是這個才是一個教育部最需要的好不好改一下你還羅馬拼音程那個簡直是無字天書我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分接下來我還要問嘛"},{"start":485.458,"end":485.478,"text":"部長﹗"},{"start":514.192,"end":517.894,"text":"其實台語變主流我好像沒有說吧我沒有說這個話在台灣用台語的人口真的比較多當然是比較多啦我只是強調我們講了這麼多你只要把國家語言擺出來每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠但是我覺得最重要的部分是就像部長也同意嘛動機是一個問題嘛"},{"start":538.148,"end":554.94,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":554.98,"end":555.12,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":580.862,"end":585.504,"text":"已經不足了而且你108課綱是108一月公布但是呢你把國家語言列為不定課程是課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的所以你會造成很多人在這個課程的發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來會很多的授課族還有包括很多的整個課程是打亂掉的不是嗎"},{"start":603.519,"end":608.842,"text":"在國小的部分他原來就有這樣的一個課程國小沒有問題啊但是你國高中啊對 國高中的部分在相應不增加總結束的情況下那麼在原來課程發展的學校課程相關的發展過程啊應該是有空間這樣有空間的情況在不增加總結束在有空間的情況下但是署長你的空間很顯然跟第一線的老師的認知是完全是有一些落差的"},{"start":630.055,"end":658.425,"text":"這就是第一線老師所反映,你不應該在玩之後,因為配合的一個政策之後,然後又給我,哥給我看這款欸,真的不知道要說什麼話欸。所以說,我覺得是,如果是以這樣的部分裡面既定的部分的程序,我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的一個想法,用什麼樣的特別的方法,而不是一個政策出來,當你覺得有點至愛難行的時候,你應該用各多的彈性的方法,而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次,然後又給我們這樣的一個課本。"},{"start":659.605,"end":660.845,"text":"我現在告訴你即使一年五年花了三百多億目前為止這個成效還是有待討論的你同意吧"},{"start":674.331,"end":686.038,"text":"這個還是要持續精進不管就課程、私自教材甚至整體活化他的像金潤式的學習或是社會的支持這個我們一起努力還有最後我要請求部長就是對於你五年花了三百四十幾億各族群當中你花的錢的細項到底放在哪裡包括是認證還有包括你的一個細項請在一個月之內給我每一個經費的評分的一個部分我要充分了解"},{"start":702.97,"end":703.272,"text":"主席"}]}}}}