{"id":153706,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d525c84d29c39c3ee7d6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1cf0c0b32b082070385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:08:09 - 10:20:38","影片長度":"00:12:29","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:08:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:20:38+08:00","duration":749,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":418,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時8分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我念一個條文給你聽，就是我們昨天審的科技偵查及保障法草案第二條，第二條第一項規定「偵查中檢察官認為有必要時，得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置；檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察因調查犯罪情形及蒐集證據認有必要時，亦同」。我想請問你，這一條拿掉了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這條沒有拿掉，這是原來草案的第三條。"],["羅委員智強：非常好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：昨天委員很關心，因為這是列舉，我跟委員說明。"],["羅委員智強：我先跟部長講，我謝謝你澄清，昨天我問你這一條，你說拿掉了，但事實上是沒有拿掉。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為……"],["羅委員智強：你先聽我講完，沒關係，部長，你說謊嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，可能是……"],["羅委員智強：你騙我嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們昨天是討論到，因為昨天委員一開始有……"],["羅委員智強：我直接幫你講答案好不好？部長，我不認為你說謊，我也不認為你騙人，因為你們的次長跟你們的幕僚跟我講，說你可能理解錯誤，我講這一條你可能理解到別的地方去，然後你也可能口誤。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是第二條，拿掉的是原本的第二條。"],["羅委員智強：我昨天明確的問你是第二條第一項，我不認為你說謊，你現在的意思是你騙我、說謊嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我講的拿掉的是屬於原草案的……"],["羅委員智強：我沒問你這個嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：第二條的概括授權……"],["羅委員智強：我沒有問你概括授權嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個已經拿掉了。"],["羅委員智強：我昨天問你概括授權嗎？主席在旁邊聽到我問你的就是這一條。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這一條是絕對不會拿掉，這一條……"],["羅委員智強：答對了嘛！我之所以說你不會說謊，我不認為你說謊，因為這一條絕對不會拿掉嘛！可是你今天防禦心太重，我問你這一條，你直接說這一條拿掉了。我跟部長說，今天雖然國會改革法案已經通過，因為還沒生效，裡面有所謂的說謊官員罪，但這一罪我在這邊直接做示範，辦不到你，你知道為什麼嗎？你知道為什麼辦不到你嗎？因為我不認為你說謊，因為我認為我講這個條文，你可能理解錯誤，昨天主席也講理解錯誤，理解錯誤不算說謊，我接受，因為不可能拿掉，我不認為你說謊，我幫你辯護耶！部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員智強：對，可是我告訴你，部長，請問昨天是你理解錯誤，還是我被你打臉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：昨天我們是就法條的內容……"],["羅委員智強：抱歉喔！雖然我很體諒，昨天也沒有要幹什麼，你有沒有發現，你問你的幕僚，來跟我解釋，我就接受，我當然說那我接受，我講的法條部長可能理解到別的地方去，我接受這個說法。可是抱歉，綠營的側翼可不是這麼看，到處做影片開始說我被你打臉，請問我被你打臉了嗎？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們在做一個釐清。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！我們就在做釐清嘛！我只問你，部長，我被你打臉了嗎？還是昨天在溝通的過程當中，你對我講的法條有誤解？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可能我是對第二條是不是概括授權的……"],["羅委員智強：我就跟你講我沒有講概括授權，我講的是第一條第一項，我才講第一項，你就跟我講拿掉了，你就講拿掉了，我沒有講到概括授權的問題，我講第一項，你就講拿掉了，昨天的影片很清楚。所以抱歉部長，我告訴你，我也已經採取法律行動了，因為我沒辦法容許，今天這麼明顯的一個狀況，還要在網路上造謠扭曲，那個側翼粉專也把相關的文章撤下來，但是我今天要跟部長講，本來昨天說的，我也接受我們主席的說法，所以我昨天沒有說什麼事，可是抱歉，我今天必須鄭重的澄清，我還是說一句話，部長，以後我們在詢答的過程當中，請你聽仔細我的問題好不好？我沒有問的問題，你不要馬上跳出來先做超越性的回答。","第二個，針對今天的通保法包括昨天科偵法，我有很多的問題要請教部長，首先，我想請教您，你知道過去我們發生很多的大案，包括高虹安案、楊文科案或林姿妙案，都發生一件事情，就是在檢察官開始去偵辦的過程當中，奇怪！鏡週刊統統都知道所有的案情，所以很多人質疑你的偵查不公開沒有落實，可是部長，我有問過前面蔡清祥部長這個問題，他是說這個東西難以稽考，因為不能保證是檢察官或法務部洩漏的，你是持同樣的看法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：媒體的來源我們並不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，我告訴你，其實偵查不公開的問題連我自己都曾經遇過，我曾經因為一個洩密案被當證人約談，檢察官還當場跟我說：羅先生，因為偵查不公開，你出去後不要對外講。結果一出去之後，媒體全部都報導出來了。當然法務部可以說這個跟法務部沒關係，但是實際上偵查不公開淪為一紙虛文，甚至變成是今天拿來帶風向的工具，這已經是大家昭昭然的事實。這跟今天不管是科偵法或者通保法有什麼關聯性？","我想要請教一下，第一個對通信紀錄的部分，我認同法務部說的，它的侵害性較小，你知道我為什麼認同通信紀錄侵害性較小呢？所以可以給予比較多的一般性授權，或是最多到所謂的事後或是檢察官保留，你知道為什麼嗎？你知道為什麼通信紀錄這一部分，我覺得相對來講侵害比較小，為什麼？因為現在沒什麼人在打電話了啦！大家談事情都用什麼東西在談？剛剛前面林思銘委員講的，是用什麼東西談？部長，你現在溝通還用電話溝通嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我的習慣是用LINE。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！所以換言之，通信紀錄這個部分確實如你所說，因為時代變遷的關係，它的侵犯性較小，但是抱歉！網路足跡我不認為喔！網路足跡我只問你一件事情，網路足跡今天你調查到，我舉個例子，賴清德總統如果說他很喜歡勞力士錶，他到購物網站去看勞力士錶，就被你們開始要去蒐集……這個賴清德不一定那位總統賴清德，我只是舉個名字而已，或是有一位賴清德的祖厝想要信託，他答應祖厝要信託，結果祖厝沒有信託、跳票了，他到法律網站去諮詢，這個網路的足跡一旦被列為你們要偵查的對象的話，這個網路足跡看不看得到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：網路足跡在第三條之一……"],["羅委員智強：看不看得到嘛？我只問你看不看得到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有內容的問題，我們這個沒有內容……"],["羅委員智強：你們可以查他去哪個網站，我沒講內容啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為哪個網站我是不能查的。"],["羅委員智強：那你可以查哪個當事人嘛！都不能查？請問你到底查什麼？你到底查什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就是從裡面……我們不會知道網址，我們只知道譬如他的IP位置，但是我們不知道網址。"],["羅委員智強：你說IP位置不能查？不能做後續偵查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個是我們查的，IP是可以嘛！但是我們……"],["羅委員智強：可以啊！你就講可以啊！IP不能查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：IP可以查……"],["羅委員智強：你講的是後續作為要不要啟動的問題，對不對？前端作為你要做，你去蒐集IP，至於後續作為你要不要做進一步？那是進一步的問題，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個是網路網址，這個就是……"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！部長，我時間真的有限，你每次在這種細節的地方都要帶到外太空去，我也質詢不完。可是我回頭要講一件事情，我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王義川？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，不可能這些資料……"],["羅委員智強：你當然講不可能啊！你會不會……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這是犯罪……"],["羅委員智強：那我這樣問你，你會不會違法偵查公開？你會不會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不會把這個訊息……偵查秘密，我們不會這個公開。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你當然說不會嘛！就像說你會偵查不公開，你也保證所有偵辦案件你們會做到偵查不公開，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會要求要嚴守偵查不公開的原則。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件，只要是重大案件，就有週刊馬上報導出來啊！到現在為止，只有法務部還在象牙塔裡面，認為你的偵查不公開做得很好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，即使媒體知道跟這個案子有關的，也不能就說是我們……"],["羅委員智強：我當然知道你的辯解，我講的是結果論，不是講你今天主觀論。你主觀論認為你偵查不公開做得很好，但是在現實上，每個重大案件都這麼巧，統統都偵查公開了！也許不是法務部，也許是警政署，也許是別的人，我不知道啊！但是我看到這已經是普遍性現象，我只問一件事情，你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王義川，抱歉！我只能盲目地相信你，因為我很信任部長，可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題，今天立法院法制局講的，你今天如果事前跟我講，包括昨天我們講所謂的科偵的GPS的作為，你說事前法官人力不夠，檢察官人力不夠，沒辦法法官保留，沒辦法相對法官保留，沒辦法檢察官保留，我非得要辦案，我一定要有效率，一定要及時抓到人。好啦！為了打詐，當然其實這部法不只是規範打詐，沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個以打詐為大宗。"],["羅委員智強：打詐只是其中之一嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個是最重要的一部分。"],["羅委員智強：最重要之一也是你的主觀評價，但是它牽連到所有的犯罪類型，全部都有！沒有關係，我跟你講，昨天已經講過這個了，我不打算再跟你爭論下去。我要講的是什麼？我要講的是，今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講，檢察官保留、法官保留是為了打詐，這個目標很宏大，我支持打詐，可是至少你要做到一件事情，就是你事後總要通知當事人吧！","報告主席，這個問題，因為前面我先做很多澄清。你事後總要通知當事人吧？要不要？我今天被科偵了，我被找到GPS了，事前你說因為打詐的犯罪偵防的速率、效率……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們監聽就會通知當事人嘛，這個也可以有……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有嘛？現在有沒有規範嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個監聽……"],["羅委員智強：監聽而已啊！我講的是科偵，我講的是GPS，我講的是通訊紀錄，我講的是今天網路的紀錄。"],["鄭部長銘謙：科偵法那個GPS那一種的法官保留，法官就會通知了。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是24小時內，你不要給我跳躍概念，我講的是24小時內沒有法官保留的，還是說你24小時內也是法官保留，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那一個當然不是。"],["羅委員智強：當然不是嘛！所以部長，說真的，你昨天為什麼出這個狀況？就是我問A，你要跳到B回答，才會造成昨天的情況，我沒有認為你說謊，但是你的答詢模式大有問題。","最後還是要再強調一件事情，你事前說你今天為了犯罪偵防的效率，我跟你講，說真的這頂帽子很大啦！我也不知道要怎麼跟你講啦！但是人權保障的部分，你至少事後要做到，你可不可以答應我，今天不管是GPS或是其他，只要被調到的人，只要是今天通訊監察所謂的通訊紀錄跟網路紀錄被調到的人，案件偵辦結束之後，發個通知書跟他講：你被科偵了，你被通聯紀錄了，你被網路紀錄了。你們做不做得到？做不到就修法嘛！真的啊！事後你不要跟我講人力不足，事後人力不足變成藉口，事前是因為犯罪偵防，我給你這個空間，但事後連這個都不做，我跟你講其實就是「偷懶」兩個字，以上，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個只有法官保留，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：還要再跟我講法官保留，你那個沒有法官保留……"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請沈委員伯洋發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"id":"153706","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153706","tool":"pyannote","id":"153706-pyannote"},"job_id":"i7142qapobyXOpaG","queued_at":"2024-06-06 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00:00:10,924\n主席有請部長請政部長\n\n2\n00:00:16,328 --> 00:00:39,696\n部長我念一個條文給你聽就是我們昨天審的科技偵查及保障法草案第二條第二條第一項規定偵查中檢察官認為有必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪\n\n3\n00:00:40,316 --> 00:00:58,871\n情形及收證證據有必要時一同。」我想請問您這一條拿掉了嗎?這一條沒有拿掉。這是原來的草案的第三條。非常好。那昨天在就是委員的關心就是說因為這是類舉我跟委員說明齁\n\n4\n00:01:00,252 --> 00:01:07,496\n我先跟部長講我謝謝你澄清昨天我問你這一條你說拿掉了但事實上是沒有拿掉你先聽我講沒關係部長你說謊嗎\n\n5\n00:01:12,236 --> 00:01:29,602\n你騙我嗎?我直接幫你講答案好不好部長我不認為你說謊我也不認為你騙人因為你們的次長跟你們的幕僚跟我講說你可能理解錯誤我講這一條你可能理解到別的地方去然後你也可能口誤\n\n6\n00:01:30,994 --> 00:01:55,228\n這個是第二條拿掉是原的我昨天明確的問你是第二條第一項欸你現在還要我不認為你說謊喔你現在是意思是你騙我說謊嗎那個我講的拿掉的是屬於原草案的第二條我沒問你這個嘛第二條的那個蓋瓜授權我沒有問你蓋瓜授權嘛我跟部長問我昨天問你蓋瓜授權嗎主席在旁邊聽到我問你就這一條\n\n7\n00:01:55,968 --> 00:02:22,367\n啊這一條是絕對不會拿掉答對了嘛我之所以說你不會說謊我不認為你說謊因為這條絕對不會拿掉嘛可是你今天防禦心態重我問你這一條你直接講這一條拿掉了我跟部長說今天齁雖然說國會改革法案已經通過因為還沒生效齁裡面有所謂說謊官員罪但這一罪我這邊直接做示範辦不到你你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼辦不到你因為我不認為你說謊\n\n8\n00:02:25,967 --> 00:02:45,196\n因為我認為我講這個條文你可能理解錯誤昨天主席也講理解錯誤理解錯誤不算說謊我接受不可能拿掉我不認為你說謊我幫你辯護欸部長謝謝委員對可是我告訴你啊部長請問是你理解錯誤還是我被你打臉啊昨天\n\n9\n00:02:47,537 --> 00:03:05,414\n昨天我們就是就法條的內容抱歉喔雖然我很體諒我昨天也沒有要幹什麼你有沒有發現你問你的幕僚來跟我解釋我就接受當然說那我接受部長可能就是跟我講的法條理解到別的地方去我接受這個說法我接受這個說法可是抱歉明天\n\n10\n00:03:07,005 --> 00:03:35,135\n那個綠營的側翼可不是這麼看啊到處做影片開始說我被你打臉請問我被你打臉了嗎有沒有我們在再做一個釐清嘛對嘛就在那邊做釐清嘛我只問你部長我被你打臉了嗎還是昨天你的溝通過程當中你對我講的法條你有誤解可能我們是對那個是不是概括授權第二條的我就跟你講我沒有講概括授權嘛我講的是第一條第一項我才講第一項你就跟我講拿掉了\n\n11\n00:03:36,598 --> 00:04:04,838\n你就講拿掉啦我沒有講到蓋花授權的問題啊我講第一項你就講拿掉啦昨天影片很清楚喔所以抱歉部長我告訴你我已經也採取法律行動了因為我沒辦法容許今天這麼明顯的一個狀況還要去在網路上造謠扭曲那個側衣粉專也把這個相關的這個文章把它撤下來但是我今天要跟部長講本來昨天說的我也接受剛剛我們的那個主席的說法說我昨天沒有說什麼事喔\n\n12\n00:04:05,658 --> 00:04:29,158\n可是抱歉我今天必須鄭重的澄清我還是說一句話部長以後我們在這個詢答的過程當中請你聽仔細我的問題好不好我沒有問的問題你不要馬上跳出來先做超越性的回答第二個我要針對今天我們通保法還是包括昨天柯真法裡面我有很多的問題要請教一下部長首先我想請教您\n\n13\n00:04:31,291 --> 00:04:43,452\n你知道過去我們發生很多的大案包括說高洪安案對不對包括這個楊文科案或林芝妙案都發生一件事情就是\n\n14\n00:04:44,707 --> 00:05:06,343\n在檢察官開始去偵辦的過程當中,欸奇怪啊,進週刊通通都知道所有案情。所以很多人質疑你的偵查不公開沒有落實。可是部長我有問過,我有問前面蔡清祥部長這個問題啊。他就說這個東西難以激考,因為不能保證是檢察官或法務部洩漏的。你是持同樣的看法嗎?\n\n15\n00:05:08,348 --> 00:05:28,839\n這個媒體的來源我們並不清楚非常好告訴你總而言之偵查不公開連我自己都曾經遇過我曾經因為這個一個洩密案我被當證人約談檢察官當場跟我講說羅先生因為這個偵查不公開你出去不要對外講齁結果一出去之後媒體全部都報導出來了\n\n16\n00:05:30,575 --> 00:05:58,090\n那當然法務部可以說這個跟法務部沒關但是實際上偵查部公開淪為一紙虛文甚至變成是今天拿來做所謂帶風向的工具以及是大家招招攬的事實那我想問你知道這跟今天我們的不管是科偵法跟所謂的通保法有什麼關聯性我想要請教一下第一個對通信記錄的部分我認同法務部說的它侵害性較小你知道為什麼認同通信記錄侵害性較小呢\n\n17\n00:05:58,470 --> 00:06:12,993\n所以可以給予比較多的所謂的你的所謂的授權一般性的授權或是最最多到所謂的事後或是檢察官保留你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼通訊紀錄這一部分我覺得相對來講侵害比較小為什麼因為現在沒什麼在打電話了啦大家談什麼事情都用什麼東西談剛剛前面林士明委員講的用什麼東西談\n\n18\n00:06:22,677 --> 00:06:37,832\n部長你現在溝通還用電話溝通嗎?對嘛所以換言之通訊紀錄這個部分確實如你所說因為時代變遷的問題它的侵犯性較小但是抱歉網路足跡我不認為喔\n\n19\n00:06:39,386 --> 00:07:05,908\n網路主席我只問你一件事情網路主席今天你調查到比方舉個例子賴清德總統如果說他很喜歡勞力士表他到購物網站去看勞力士表就被你們開始要去收集所謂的這個賴清德不一定是那位總統賴清德我只舉個名字而已或是這位賴清德有一位賴清德他的主錯想要信託他答應主錯要信託結果主錯沒有信託跳票了他到法律網站去諮詢\n\n20\n00:07:07,929 --> 00:07:34,204\n這個網路的足跡如果一旦被列為你們要偵查的對象的話這網路足跡看不看得到?看不看得到?網路足跡我們在第三條之一看不看得到嗎?我只問你看不看得到嗎?這個這個有內容的問題我們這個沒有內容的問題你們可以查他去哪個網站我沒講內容啦那你可以查哪個當事人嘛都不能查那請問你到底查什麼?你到底查什麼?\n\n21\n00:07:35,697 --> 00:08:02,193\n我們就是從裡面我們不會知道網址我們知道就譬如說他的IPIP位置但是我們不知道網址你說IP位置不能查不能做後續偵查那個是我們查的IP是可以嘛但是我們可以啊你就講可以啊IP不能查我要跟你講是後續作為要不要啟動的問題嘛對不對前端作為你要做你收集IP但後續作為你要不要做進一步的是進一步的問題嘛對不對\n\n22\n00:08:03,775 --> 00:08:17,493\n對這個是王國王子我跟你講所以部長我時間真的有限你每次在這種細節的地方要跟我帶到外太空去我也質詢不完可是我回頭要講一件事情我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王逸川\n\n23\n00:08:19,892 --> 00:08:46,837\n你當然講不可能阿你會不會那我這樣問你齁你會違法偵查公開你會不會我跟你講我跟你講你當然說不會嘛就像說你會偵查不公開你也跟我保證你保證你們做所有偵查案件你們會做到偵查不公開嘛對不對對嘛可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件只要重大案件\n\n24\n00:08:47,757 --> 00:09:05,799\n就周刊馬上報導出啊我告訴你到現在為止只有法務部還在下壓他認為你的偵查公開做得很好偵查不公開做得很好我當然知道你的辯解我講的是結果論不是講你今天主觀論你主觀論認為偵查不公開做得很好但是仿在現在現實上\n\n25\n00:09:07,642 --> 00:09:34,265\n每個重大案件都這麼巧通通都偵查公開了也許不是法務部也許警政署也許是別的人我不知道啊但是我看到這件普遍性現象我只問一件事情你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王逸川抱歉我只能盲目的相信你欸因為我很信任部長欸可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題是什麼我今天堅持就今天立法院法治局講的\n\n26\n00:09:35,663 --> 00:09:55,874\n你今天如果事前你跟我講不知道昨天的我們講這個所謂的科偵的一個作為GPS的作為說他事前法官能力不夠檢察官能力不夠沒辦法法官保留沒辦法相對法官保留沒辦法檢察官保留我非得要辦案我一定要有效率一定要及時抓到人好啦為了打詐但其實這部法不只是規範打詐沒錯吧\n\n27\n00:09:58,387 --> 00:10:11,586\n打詐只是其中之一嘛最重要之一也是你的主觀評價但是要牽連到所有的犯罪類型全部都有沒有關係我跟你講昨天已經講過這我不打算跟你爭論下去我要講的是什麼\n\n28\n00:10:12,745 --> 00:10:37,209\n我要講的是說今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講檢察官保留法官保留你是為了打仗這個目標很宏大我支持打仗可是至少你要做到一件事情你事後總要通知當事人吧報告主席這個問題因為前面我先做很多澄清你事後總要通知當事人吧要不要\n\n29\n00:10:39,431 --> 00:10:58,964\n要不要我今天被科徵了我被找到GPS了事前你說打詐的一個一個所謂戰隊征防的速率效率我們那個監聽就有通知當事人嗎那這個也可以有一到有沒有嘛現在有沒有規範嘛那個監聽這麼速那個我監聽而已啊我講的是科徵我講的是GPS我講的是通訊記錄我講的是\n\n30\n00:11:01,286 --> 00:11:13,794\n今天網路的紀錄我講的是二十四小時內你不要跟我跳跳跳跳概念我講的是二十四小時內沒有法官保留欸你還是說你二十四小時內是法官保留是嗎\n\n31\n00:11:16,315 --> 00:11:38,556\n當然不是嘛所以部長真的說真的齁你今天昨天為什麼出這個狀況就是我問A你要跳到B回答才會造成昨天的情況我沒有認為你說謊但是你的答詢模式我認為大有問題最後我還要再強調一件事情你事前說你今天為了犯罪增防的效率齁我跟你講說真的這帽子很大啦我也不知道怎麼跟你講啦\n\n32\n00:11:39,844 --> 00:12:01,031\n但是人權保障的部分你至少事後要做到你可以答應我今天不管是GPS只要被調到的人只要是今天通訊監察被所謂的通訊記錄跟網路記錄被調到的人你案件偵辦結束之後發個通知書跟他講說你被柯真了你被通聯記錄了你被網路記錄了你做不做得到做不到修法\n\n33\n00:12:04,912 --> 00:12:17,165\n真的啊事後你不要跟我講人力不足喔事後人力不足變成藉口事前是因為犯罪征訪我給你這個空間但事後連這個都不做我跟你講就是偷懶兩個字以上謝謝接下來請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9742\t10924\t主席有請部長請政部長\n16328\t39696\t部長我念一個條文給你聽就是我們昨天審的科技偵查及保障法草案第二條第二條第一項規定偵查中檢察官認為有必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪\n40316\t58871\t情形及收證證據有必要時一同。」我想請問您這一條拿掉了嗎?這一條沒有拿掉。這是原來的草案的第三條。非常好。那昨天在就是委員的關心就是說因為這是類舉我跟委員說明齁\n60252\t67496\t我先跟部長講我謝謝你澄清昨天我問你這一條你說拿掉了但事實上是沒有拿掉你先聽我講沒關係部長你說謊嗎\n72236\t89602\t你騙我嗎?我直接幫你講答案好不好部長我不認為你說謊我也不認為你騙人因為你們的次長跟你們的幕僚跟我講說你可能理解錯誤我講這一條你可能理解到別的地方去然後你也可能口誤\n90994\t115228\t這個是第二條拿掉是原的我昨天明確的問你是第二條第一項欸你現在還要我不認為你說謊喔你現在是意思是你騙我說謊嗎那個我講的拿掉的是屬於原草案的第二條我沒問你這個嘛第二條的那個蓋瓜授權我沒有問你蓋瓜授權嘛我跟部長問我昨天問你蓋瓜授權嗎主席在旁邊聽到我問你就這一條\n115968\t142367\t啊這一條是絕對不會拿掉答對了嘛我之所以說你不會說謊我不認為你說謊因為這條絕對不會拿掉嘛可是你今天防禦心態重我問你這一條你直接講這一條拿掉了我跟部長說今天齁雖然說國會改革法案已經通過因為還沒生效齁裡面有所謂說謊官員罪但這一罪我這邊直接做示範辦不到你你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼辦不到你因為我不認為你說謊\n145967\t165196\t因為我認為我講這個條文你可能理解錯誤昨天主席也講理解錯誤理解錯誤不算說謊我接受不可能拿掉我不認為你說謊我幫你辯護欸部長謝謝委員對可是我告訴你啊部長請問是你理解錯誤還是我被你打臉啊昨天\n167537\t185414\t昨天我們就是就法條的內容抱歉喔雖然我很體諒我昨天也沒有要幹什麼你有沒有發現你問你的幕僚來跟我解釋我就接受當然說那我接受部長可能就是跟我講的法條理解到別的地方去我接受這個說法我接受這個說法可是抱歉明天\n187005\t215135\t那個綠營的側翼可不是這麼看啊到處做影片開始說我被你打臉請問我被你打臉了嗎有沒有我們在再做一個釐清嘛對嘛就在那邊做釐清嘛我只問你部長我被你打臉了嗎還是昨天你的溝通過程當中你對我講的法條你有誤解可能我們是對那個是不是概括授權第二條的我就跟你講我沒有講概括授權嘛我講的是第一條第一項我才講第一項你就跟我講拿掉了\n216598\t244838\t你就講拿掉啦我沒有講到蓋花授權的問題啊我講第一項你就講拿掉啦昨天影片很清楚喔所以抱歉部長我告訴你我已經也採取法律行動了因為我沒辦法容許今天這麼明顯的一個狀況還要去在網路上造謠扭曲那個側衣粉專也把這個相關的這個文章把它撤下來但是我今天要跟部長講本來昨天說的我也接受剛剛我們的那個主席的說法說我昨天沒有說什麼事喔\n245658\t269158\t可是抱歉我今天必須鄭重的澄清我還是說一句話部長以後我們在這個詢答的過程當中請你聽仔細我的問題好不好我沒有問的問題你不要馬上跳出來先做超越性的回答第二個我要針對今天我們通保法還是包括昨天柯真法裡面我有很多的問題要請教一下部長首先我想請教您\n271291\t283452\t你知道過去我們發生很多的大案包括說高洪安案對不對包括這個楊文科案或林芝妙案都發生一件事情就是\n284707\t306343\t在檢察官開始去偵辦的過程當中,欸奇怪啊,進週刊通通都知道所有案情。所以很多人質疑你的偵查不公開沒有落實。可是部長我有問過,我有問前面蔡清祥部長這個問題啊。他就說這個東西難以激考,因為不能保證是檢察官或法務部洩漏的。你是持同樣的看法嗎?\n308348\t328839\t這個媒體的來源我們並不清楚非常好告訴你總而言之偵查不公開連我自己都曾經遇過我曾經因為這個一個洩密案我被當證人約談檢察官當場跟我講說羅先生因為這個偵查不公開你出去不要對外講齁結果一出去之後媒體全部都報導出來了\n330575\t358090\t那當然法務部可以說這個跟法務部沒關但是實際上偵查部公開淪為一紙虛文甚至變成是今天拿來做所謂帶風向的工具以及是大家招招攬的事實那我想問你知道這跟今天我們的不管是科偵法跟所謂的通保法有什麼關聯性我想要請教一下第一個對通信記錄的部分我認同法務部說的它侵害性較小你知道為什麼認同通信記錄侵害性較小呢\n358470\t372993\t所以可以給予比較多的所謂的你的所謂的授權一般性的授權或是最最多到所謂的事後或是檢察官保留你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼通訊紀錄這一部分我覺得相對來講侵害比較小為什麼因為現在沒什麼在打電話了啦大家談什麼事情都用什麼東西談剛剛前面林士明委員講的用什麼東西談\n382677\t397832\t部長你現在溝通還用電話溝通嗎?對嘛所以換言之通訊紀錄這個部分確實如你所說因為時代變遷的問題它的侵犯性較小但是抱歉網路足跡我不認為喔\n399386\t425908\t網路主席我只問你一件事情網路主席今天你調查到比方舉個例子賴清德總統如果說他很喜歡勞力士表他到購物網站去看勞力士表就被你們開始要去收集所謂的這個賴清德不一定是那位總統賴清德我只舉個名字而已或是這位賴清德有一位賴清德他的主錯想要信託他答應主錯要信託結果主錯沒有信託跳票了他到法律網站去諮詢\n427929\t454204\t這個網路的足跡如果一旦被列為你們要偵查的對象的話這網路足跡看不看得到?看不看得到?網路足跡我們在第三條之一看不看得到嗎?我只問你看不看得到嗎?這個這個有內容的問題我們這個沒有內容的問題你們可以查他去哪個網站我沒講內容啦那你可以查哪個當事人嘛都不能查那請問你到底查什麼?你到底查什麼?\n455697\t482193\t我們就是從裡面我們不會知道網址我們知道就譬如說他的IPIP位置但是我們不知道網址你說IP位置不能查不能做後續偵查那個是我們查的IP是可以嘛但是我們可以啊你就講可以啊IP不能查我要跟你講是後續作為要不要啟動的問題嘛對不對前端作為你要做你收集IP但後續作為你要不要做進一步的是進一步的問題嘛對不對\n483775\t497493\t對 這個是王國王子我跟你講 所以部長我時間真的有限你每次在這種細節的地方要跟我帶到外太空去我也質詢不完可是我回頭要講一件事情我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王逸川\n499892\t526837\t你當然講不可能阿你會不會那我這樣問你齁你會違法偵查公開你會不會我跟你講我跟你講你當然說不會嘛就像說你會偵查不公開你也跟我保證你保證你們做所有偵查案件你們會做到偵查不公開嘛對不對對嘛可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件只要重大案件\n527757\t545799\t就周刊馬上報導出啊我告訴你到現在為止只有法務部還在下壓他認為你的偵查公開做得很好偵查不公開做得很好我當然知道你的辯解我講的是結果論不是講你今天主觀論你主觀論認為偵查不公開做得很好但是仿在現在現實上\n547642\t574265\t每個重大案件都這麼巧通通都偵查公開了也許不是法務部也許警政署也許是別的人我不知道啊但是我看到這件普遍性現象我只問一件事情你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王逸川抱歉我只能盲目的相信你欸因為我很信任部長欸可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題是什麼我今天堅持就今天立法院法治局講的\n575663\t595874\t你今天如果事前你跟我講不知道昨天的我們講這個所謂的科偵的一個作為GPS的作為說他事前法官能力不夠檢察官能力不夠沒辦法法官保留沒辦法相對法官保留沒辦法檢察官保留我非得要辦案我一定要有效率一定要及時抓到人好啦為了打詐但其實這部法不只是規範打詐沒錯吧\n598387\t611586\t打詐只是其中之一嘛最重要之一也是你的主觀評價但是要牽連到所有的犯罪類型全部都有沒有關係我跟你講昨天已經講過這我不打算跟你爭論下去我要講的是什麼\n612745\t637209\t我要講的是說今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講檢察官保留法官保留你是為了打仗這個目標很宏大我支持打仗可是至少你要做到一件事情你事後總要通知當事人吧報告主席這個問題因為前面我先做很多澄清你事後總要通知當事人吧要不要\n639431\t658964\t要不要我今天被科徵了我被找到GPS了事前你說打詐的一個一個所謂戰隊征防的速率效率我們那個監聽就有通知當事人嗎那這個也可以有一到有沒有嘛現在有沒有規範嘛那個監聽這麼速那個我監聽而已啊我講的是科徵我講的是GPS我講的是通訊記錄我講的是\n661286\t673794\t今天網路的紀錄我講的是二十四小時內你不要跟我跳跳跳跳概念我講的是二十四小時內沒有法官保留欸你還是說你二十四小時內是法官保留是嗎\n676315\t698556\t當然不是嘛所以部長真的說真的齁你今天昨天為什麼出這個狀況就是我問A你要跳到B回答才會造成昨天的情況我沒有認為你說謊但是你的答詢模式我認為大有問題最後我還要再強調一件事情你事前說你今天為了犯罪增防的效率齁我跟你講說真的這帽子很大啦我也不知道怎麼跟你講啦\n699844\t721031\t但是人權保障的部分你至少事後要做到你可以答應我今天不管是GPS只要被調到的人只要是今天通訊監察被所謂的通訊記錄跟網路記錄被調到的人你案件偵辦結束之後發個通知書跟他講說你被柯真了你被通聯記錄了你被網路記錄了你做不做得到做不到修法\n724912\t737165\t真的啊事後你不要跟我講人力不足喔事後人力不足變成藉口事前是因為犯罪征訪我給你這個空間但事後連這個都不做我跟你講就是偷懶兩個字以上謝謝接下來請\n","txt":"主席有請部長請政部長\n部長我念一個條文給你聽就是我們昨天審的科技偵查及保障法草案第二條第二條第一項規定偵查中檢察官認為有必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪\n情形及收證證據有必要時一同。」我想請問您這一條拿掉了嗎?這一條沒有拿掉。這是原來的草案的第三條。非常好。那昨天在就是委員的關心就是說因為這是類舉我跟委員說明齁\n我先跟部長講我謝謝你澄清昨天我問你這一條你說拿掉了但事實上是沒有拿掉你先聽我講沒關係部長你說謊嗎\n你騙我嗎?我直接幫你講答案好不好部長我不認為你說謊我也不認為你騙人因為你們的次長跟你們的幕僚跟我講說你可能理解錯誤我講這一條你可能理解到別的地方去然後你也可能口誤\n這個是第二條拿掉是原的我昨天明確的問你是第二條第一項欸你現在還要我不認為你說謊喔你現在是意思是你騙我說謊嗎那個我講的拿掉的是屬於原草案的第二條我沒問你這個嘛第二條的那個蓋瓜授權我沒有問你蓋瓜授權嘛我跟部長問我昨天問你蓋瓜授權嗎主席在旁邊聽到我問你就這一條\n啊這一條是絕對不會拿掉答對了嘛我之所以說你不會說謊我不認為你說謊因為這條絕對不會拿掉嘛可是你今天防禦心態重我問你這一條你直接講這一條拿掉了我跟部長說今天齁雖然說國會改革法案已經通過因為還沒生效齁裡面有所謂說謊官員罪但這一罪我這邊直接做示範辦不到你你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼辦不到你因為我不認為你說謊\n因為我認為我講這個條文你可能理解錯誤昨天主席也講理解錯誤理解錯誤不算說謊我接受不可能拿掉我不認為你說謊我幫你辯護欸部長謝謝委員對可是我告訴你啊部長請問是你理解錯誤還是我被你打臉啊昨天\n昨天我們就是就法條的內容抱歉喔雖然我很體諒我昨天也沒有要幹什麼你有沒有發現你問你的幕僚來跟我解釋我就接受當然說那我接受部長可能就是跟我講的法條理解到別的地方去我接受這個說法我接受這個說法可是抱歉明天\n那個綠營的側翼可不是這麼看啊到處做影片開始說我被你打臉請問我被你打臉了嗎有沒有我們在再做一個釐清嘛對嘛就在那邊做釐清嘛我只問你部長我被你打臉了嗎還是昨天你的溝通過程當中你對我講的法條你有誤解可能我們是對那個是不是概括授權第二條的我就跟你講我沒有講概括授權嘛我講的是第一條第一項我才講第一項你就跟我講拿掉了\n你就講拿掉啦我沒有講到蓋花授權的問題啊我講第一項你就講拿掉啦昨天影片很清楚喔所以抱歉部長我告訴你我已經也採取法律行動了因為我沒辦法容許今天這麼明顯的一個狀況還要去在網路上造謠扭曲那個側衣粉專也把這個相關的這個文章把它撤下來但是我今天要跟部長講本來昨天說的我也接受剛剛我們的那個主席的說法說我昨天沒有說什麼事喔\n可是抱歉我今天必須鄭重的澄清我還是說一句話部長以後我們在這個詢答的過程當中請你聽仔細我的問題好不好我沒有問的問題你不要馬上跳出來先做超越性的回答第二個我要針對今天我們通保法還是包括昨天柯真法裡面我有很多的問題要請教一下部長首先我想請教您\n你知道過去我們發生很多的大案包括說高洪安案對不對包括這個楊文科案或林芝妙案都發生一件事情就是\n在檢察官開始去偵辦的過程當中,欸奇怪啊,進週刊通通都知道所有案情。所以很多人質疑你的偵查不公開沒有落實。可是部長我有問過,我有問前面蔡清祥部長這個問題啊。他就說這個東西難以激考,因為不能保證是檢察官或法務部洩漏的。你是持同樣的看法嗎?\n這個媒體的來源我們並不清楚非常好告訴你總而言之偵查不公開連我自己都曾經遇過我曾經因為這個一個洩密案我被當證人約談檢察官當場跟我講說羅先生因為這個偵查不公開你出去不要對外講齁結果一出去之後媒體全部都報導出來了\n那當然法務部可以說這個跟法務部沒關但是實際上偵查部公開淪為一紙虛文甚至變成是今天拿來做所謂帶風向的工具以及是大家招招攬的事實那我想問你知道這跟今天我們的不管是科偵法跟所謂的通保法有什麼關聯性我想要請教一下第一個對通信記錄的部分我認同法務部說的它侵害性較小你知道為什麼認同通信記錄侵害性較小呢\n所以可以給予比較多的所謂的你的所謂的授權一般性的授權或是最最多到所謂的事後或是檢察官保留你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼通訊紀錄這一部分我覺得相對來講侵害比較小為什麼因為現在沒什麼在打電話了啦大家談什麼事情都用什麼東西談剛剛前面林士明委員講的用什麼東西談\n部長你現在溝通還用電話溝通嗎?對嘛所以換言之通訊紀錄這個部分確實如你所說因為時代變遷的問題它的侵犯性較小但是抱歉網路足跡我不認為喔\n網路主席我只問你一件事情網路主席今天你調查到比方舉個例子賴清德總統如果說他很喜歡勞力士表他到購物網站去看勞力士表就被你們開始要去收集所謂的這個賴清德不一定是那位總統賴清德我只舉個名字而已或是這位賴清德有一位賴清德他的主錯想要信託他答應主錯要信託結果主錯沒有信託跳票了他到法律網站去諮詢\n這個網路的足跡如果一旦被列為你們要偵查的對象的話這網路足跡看不看得到?看不看得到?網路足跡我們在第三條之一看不看得到嗎?我只問你看不看得到嗎?這個這個有內容的問題我們這個沒有內容的問題你們可以查他去哪個網站我沒講內容啦那你可以查哪個當事人嘛都不能查那請問你到底查什麼?你到底查什麼?\n我們就是從裡面我們不會知道網址我們知道就譬如說他的IPIP位置但是我們不知道網址你說IP位置不能查不能做後續偵查那個是我們查的IP是可以嘛但是我們可以啊你就講可以啊IP不能查我要跟你講是後續作為要不要啟動的問題嘛對不對前端作為你要做你收集IP但後續作為你要不要做進一步的是進一步的問題嘛對不對\n對 這個是王國王子我跟你講 所以部長我時間真的有限你每次在這種細節的地方要跟我帶到外太空去我也質詢不完可是我回頭要講一件事情我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王逸川\n你當然講不可能阿你會不會那我這樣問你齁你會違法偵查公開你會不會我跟你講我跟你講你當然說不會嘛就像說你會偵查不公開你也跟我保證你保證你們做所有偵查案件你們會做到偵查不公開嘛對不對對嘛可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件只要重大案件\n就周刊馬上報導出啊我告訴你到現在為止只有法務部還在下壓他認為你的偵查公開做得很好偵查不公開做得很好我當然知道你的辯解我講的是結果論不是講你今天主觀論你主觀論認為偵查不公開做得很好但是仿在現在現實上\n每個重大案件都這麼巧通通都偵查公開了也許不是法務部也許警政署也許是別的人我不知道啊但是我看到這件普遍性現象我只問一件事情你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王逸川抱歉我只能盲目的相信你欸因為我很信任部長欸可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題是什麼我今天堅持就今天立法院法治局講的\n你今天如果事前你跟我講不知道昨天的我們講這個所謂的科偵的一個作為GPS的作為說他事前法官能力不夠檢察官能力不夠沒辦法法官保留沒辦法相對法官保留沒辦法檢察官保留我非得要辦案我一定要有效率一定要及時抓到人好啦為了打詐但其實這部法不只是規範打詐沒錯吧\n打詐只是其中之一嘛最重要之一也是你的主觀評價但是要牽連到所有的犯罪類型全部都有沒有關係我跟你講昨天已經講過這我不打算跟你爭論下去我要講的是什麼\n我要講的是說今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講檢察官保留法官保留你是為了打仗這個目標很宏大我支持打仗可是至少你要做到一件事情你事後總要通知當事人吧報告主席這個問題因為前面我先做很多澄清你事後總要通知當事人吧要不要\n要不要我今天被科徵了我被找到GPS了事前你說打詐的一個一個所謂戰隊征防的速率效率我們那個監聽就有通知當事人嗎那這個也可以有一到有沒有嘛現在有沒有規範嘛那個監聽這麼速那個我監聽而已啊我講的是科徵我講的是GPS我講的是通訊記錄我講的是\n今天網路的紀錄我講的是二十四小時內你不要跟我跳跳跳跳概念我講的是二十四小時內沒有法官保留欸你還是說你二十四小時內是法官保留是嗎\n當然不是嘛所以部長真的說真的齁你今天昨天為什麼出這個狀況就是我問A你要跳到B回答才會造成昨天的情況我沒有認為你說謊但是你的答詢模式我認為大有問題最後我還要再強調一件事情你事前說你今天為了犯罪增防的效率齁我跟你講說真的這帽子很大啦我也不知道怎麼跟你講啦\n但是人權保障的部分你至少事後要做到你可以答應我今天不管是GPS只要被調到的人只要是今天通訊監察被所謂的通訊記錄跟網路記錄被調到的人你案件偵辦結束之後發個通知書跟他講說你被柯真了你被通聯記錄了你被網路記錄了你做不做得到做不到修法\n真的啊事後你不要跟我講人力不足喔事後人力不足變成藉口事前是因為犯罪征訪我給你這個空間但事後連這個都不做我跟你講就是偷懶兩個字以上謝謝接下來請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.742 --> 00:10.924\n主席有請部長請政部長\n\n00:16.328 --> 00:39.696\n部長我念一個條文給你聽就是我們昨天審的科技偵查及保障法草案第二條第二條第一項規定偵查中檢察官認為有必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪\n\n00:40.316 --> 00:58.871\n情形及收證證據有必要時一同。」我想請問您這一條拿掉了嗎?這一條沒有拿掉。這是原來的草案的第三條。非常好。那昨天在就是委員的關心就是說因為這是類舉我跟委員說明齁\n\n01:00.252 --> 01:07.496\n我先跟部長講我謝謝你澄清昨天我問你這一條你說拿掉了但事實上是沒有拿掉你先聽我講沒關係部長你說謊嗎\n\n01:12.236 --> 01:29.602\n你騙我嗎?我直接幫你講答案好不好部長我不認為你說謊我也不認為你騙人因為你們的次長跟你們的幕僚跟我講說你可能理解錯誤我講這一條你可能理解到別的地方去然後你也可能口誤\n\n01:30.994 --> 01:55.228\n這個是第二條拿掉是原的我昨天明確的問你是第二條第一項欸你現在還要我不認為你說謊喔你現在是意思是你騙我說謊嗎那個我講的拿掉的是屬於原草案的第二條我沒問你這個嘛第二條的那個蓋瓜授權我沒有問你蓋瓜授權嘛我跟部長問我昨天問你蓋瓜授權嗎主席在旁邊聽到我問你就這一條\n\n01:55.968 --> 02:22.367\n啊這一條是絕對不會拿掉答對了嘛我之所以說你不會說謊我不認為你說謊因為這條絕對不會拿掉嘛可是你今天防禦心態重我問你這一條你直接講這一條拿掉了我跟部長說今天齁雖然說國會改革法案已經通過因為還沒生效齁裡面有所謂說謊官員罪但這一罪我這邊直接做示範辦不到你你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼辦不到你因為我不認為你說謊\n\n02:25.967 --> 02:45.196\n因為我認為我講這個條文你可能理解錯誤昨天主席也講理解錯誤理解錯誤不算說謊我接受不可能拿掉我不認為你說謊我幫你辯護欸部長謝謝委員對可是我告訴你啊部長請問是你理解錯誤還是我被你打臉啊昨天\n\n02:47.537 --> 03:05.414\n昨天我們就是就法條的內容抱歉喔雖然我很體諒我昨天也沒有要幹什麼你有沒有發現你問你的幕僚來跟我解釋我就接受當然說那我接受部長可能就是跟我講的法條理解到別的地方去我接受這個說法我接受這個說法可是抱歉明天\n\n03:07.005 --> 03:35.135\n那個綠營的側翼可不是這麼看啊到處做影片開始說我被你打臉請問我被你打臉了嗎有沒有我們在再做一個釐清嘛對嘛就在那邊做釐清嘛我只問你部長我被你打臉了嗎還是昨天你的溝通過程當中你對我講的法條你有誤解可能我們是對那個是不是概括授權第二條的我就跟你講我沒有講概括授權嘛我講的是第一條第一項我才講第一項你就跟我講拿掉了\n\n03:36.598 --> 04:04.838\n你就講拿掉啦我沒有講到蓋花授權的問題啊我講第一項你就講拿掉啦昨天影片很清楚喔所以抱歉部長我告訴你我已經也採取法律行動了因為我沒辦法容許今天這麼明顯的一個狀況還要去在網路上造謠扭曲那個側衣粉專也把這個相關的這個文章把它撤下來但是我今天要跟部長講本來昨天說的我也接受剛剛我們的那個主席的說法說我昨天沒有說什麼事喔\n\n04:05.658 --> 04:29.158\n可是抱歉我今天必須鄭重的澄清我還是說一句話部長以後我們在這個詢答的過程當中請你聽仔細我的問題好不好我沒有問的問題你不要馬上跳出來先做超越性的回答第二個我要針對今天我們通保法還是包括昨天柯真法裡面我有很多的問題要請教一下部長首先我想請教您\n\n04:31.291 --> 04:43.452\n你知道過去我們發生很多的大案包括說高洪安案對不對包括這個楊文科案或林芝妙案都發生一件事情就是\n\n04:44.707 --> 05:06.343\n在檢察官開始去偵辦的過程當中,欸奇怪啊,進週刊通通都知道所有案情。所以很多人質疑你的偵查不公開沒有落實。可是部長我有問過,我有問前面蔡清祥部長這個問題啊。他就說這個東西難以激考,因為不能保證是檢察官或法務部洩漏的。你是持同樣的看法嗎?\n\n05:08.348 --> 05:28.839\n這個媒體的來源我們並不清楚非常好告訴你總而言之偵查不公開連我自己都曾經遇過我曾經因為這個一個洩密案我被當證人約談檢察官當場跟我講說羅先生因為這個偵查不公開你出去不要對外講齁結果一出去之後媒體全部都報導出來了\n\n05:30.575 --> 05:58.090\n那當然法務部可以說這個跟法務部沒關但是實際上偵查部公開淪為一紙虛文甚至變成是今天拿來做所謂帶風向的工具以及是大家招招攬的事實那我想問你知道這跟今天我們的不管是科偵法跟所謂的通保法有什麼關聯性我想要請教一下第一個對通信記錄的部分我認同法務部說的它侵害性較小你知道為什麼認同通信記錄侵害性較小呢\n\n05:58.470 --> 06:12.993\n所以可以給予比較多的所謂的你的所謂的授權一般性的授權或是最最多到所謂的事後或是檢察官保留你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼通訊紀錄這一部分我覺得相對來講侵害比較小為什麼因為現在沒什麼在打電話了啦大家談什麼事情都用什麼東西談剛剛前面林士明委員講的用什麼東西談\n\n06:22.677 --> 06:37.832\n部長你現在溝通還用電話溝通嗎?對嘛所以換言之通訊紀錄這個部分確實如你所說因為時代變遷的問題它的侵犯性較小但是抱歉網路足跡我不認為喔\n\n06:39.386 --> 07:05.908\n網路主席我只問你一件事情網路主席今天你調查到比方舉個例子賴清德總統如果說他很喜歡勞力士表他到購物網站去看勞力士表就被你們開始要去收集所謂的這個賴清德不一定是那位總統賴清德我只舉個名字而已或是這位賴清德有一位賴清德他的主錯想要信託他答應主錯要信託結果主錯沒有信託跳票了他到法律網站去諮詢\n\n07:07.929 --> 07:34.204\n這個網路的足跡如果一旦被列為你們要偵查的對象的話這網路足跡看不看得到?看不看得到?網路足跡我們在第三條之一看不看得到嗎?我只問你看不看得到嗎?這個這個有內容的問題我們這個沒有內容的問題你們可以查他去哪個網站我沒講內容啦那你可以查哪個當事人嘛都不能查那請問你到底查什麼?你到底查什麼?\n\n07:35.697 --> 08:02.193\n我們就是從裡面我們不會知道網址我們知道就譬如說他的IPIP位置但是我們不知道網址你說IP位置不能查不能做後續偵查那個是我們查的IP是可以嘛但是我們可以啊你就講可以啊IP不能查我要跟你講是後續作為要不要啟動的問題嘛對不對前端作為你要做你收集IP但後續作為你要不要做進一步的是進一步的問題嘛對不對\n\n08:03.775 --> 08:17.493\n對這個是王國王子我跟你講所以部長我時間真的有限你每次在這種細節的地方要跟我帶到外太空去我也質詢不完可是我回頭要講一件事情我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王逸川\n\n08:19.892 --> 08:46.837\n你當然講不可能阿你會不會那我這樣問你齁你會違法偵查公開你會不會我跟你講我跟你講你當然說不會嘛就像說你會偵查不公開你也跟我保證你保證你們做所有偵查案件你們會做到偵查不公開嘛對不對對嘛可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件只要重大案件\n\n08:47.757 --> 09:05.799\n就周刊馬上報導出啊我告訴你到現在為止只有法務部還在下壓他認為你的偵查公開做得很好偵查不公開做得很好我當然知道你的辯解我講的是結果論不是講你今天主觀論你主觀論認為偵查不公開做得很好但是仿在現在現實上\n\n09:07.642 --> 09:34.265\n每個重大案件都這麼巧通通都偵查公開了也許不是法務部也許警政署也許是別的人我不知道啊但是我看到這件普遍性現象我只問一件事情你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王逸川抱歉我只能盲目的相信你欸因為我很信任部長欸可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題是什麼我今天堅持就今天立法院法治局講的\n\n09:35.663 --> 09:55.874\n你今天如果事前你跟我講不知道昨天的我們講這個所謂的科偵的一個作為GPS的作為說他事前法官能力不夠檢察官能力不夠沒辦法法官保留沒辦法相對法官保留沒辦法檢察官保留我非得要辦案我一定要有效率一定要及時抓到人好啦為了打詐但其實這部法不只是規範打詐沒錯吧\n\n09:58.387 --> 10:11.586\n打詐只是其中之一嘛最重要之一也是你的主觀評價但是要牽連到所有的犯罪類型全部都有沒有關係我跟你講昨天已經講過這我不打算跟你爭論下去我要講的是什麼\n\n10:12.745 --> 10:37.209\n我要講的是說今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講檢察官保留法官保留你是為了打仗這個目標很宏大我支持打仗可是至少你要做到一件事情你事後總要通知當事人吧報告主席這個問題因為前面我先做很多澄清你事後總要通知當事人吧要不要\n\n10:39.431 --> 10:58.964\n要不要我今天被科徵了我被找到GPS了事前你說打詐的一個一個所謂戰隊征防的速率效率我們那個監聽就有通知當事人嗎那這個也可以有一到有沒有嘛現在有沒有規範嘛那個監聽這麼速那個我監聽而已啊我講的是科徵我講的是GPS我講的是通訊記錄我講的是\n\n11:01.286 --> 11:13.794\n今天網路的紀錄我講的是二十四小時內你不要跟我跳跳跳跳概念我講的是二十四小時內沒有法官保留欸你還是說你二十四小時內是法官保留是嗎\n\n11:16.315 --> 11:38.556\n當然不是嘛所以部長真的說真的齁你今天昨天為什麼出這個狀況就是我問A你要跳到B回答才會造成昨天的情況我沒有認為你說謊但是你的答詢模式我認為大有問題最後我還要再強調一件事情你事前說你今天為了犯罪增防的效率齁我跟你講說真的這帽子很大啦我也不知道怎麼跟你講啦\n\n11:39.844 --> 12:01.031\n但是人權保障的部分你至少事後要做到你可以答應我今天不管是GPS只要被調到的人只要是今天通訊監察被所謂的通訊記錄跟網路記錄被調到的人你案件偵辦結束之後發個通知書跟他講說你被柯真了你被通聯記錄了你被網路記錄了你做不做得到做不到修法\n\n12:04.912 --> 12:17.165\n真的啊事後你不要跟我講人力不足喔事後人力不足變成藉口事前是因為犯罪征訪我給你這個空間但事後連這個都不做我跟你講就是偷懶兩個字以上謝謝接下來請\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.742,"end":10.924,"text":"主席有請部長請政部長"},{"start":16.328,"end":39.696,"text":"部長我念一個條文給你聽就是我們昨天審的科技偵查及保障法草案第二條第二條第一項規定偵查中檢察官認為有必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪"},{"start":40.316,"end":58.871,"text":"情形及收證證據有必要時一同。」我想請問您這一條拿掉了嗎?這一條沒有拿掉。這是原來的草案的第三條。非常好。那昨天在就是委員的關心就是說因為這是類舉我跟委員說明齁"},{"start":60.252,"end":67.496,"text":"我先跟部長講我謝謝你澄清昨天我問你這一條你說拿掉了但事實上是沒有拿掉你先聽我講沒關係部長你說謊嗎"},{"start":72.236,"end":89.602,"text":"你騙我嗎?我直接幫你講答案好不好部長我不認為你說謊我也不認為你騙人因為你們的次長跟你們的幕僚跟我講說你可能理解錯誤我講這一條你可能理解到別的地方去然後你也可能口誤"},{"start":90.994,"end":115.228,"text":"這個是第二條拿掉是原的我昨天明確的問你是第二條第一項欸你現在還要我不認為你說謊喔你現在是意思是你騙我說謊嗎那個我講的拿掉的是屬於原草案的第二條我沒問你這個嘛第二條的那個蓋瓜授權我沒有問你蓋瓜授權嘛我跟部長問我昨天問你蓋瓜授權嗎主席在旁邊聽到我問你就這一條"},{"start":115.968,"end":142.367,"text":"啊這一條是絕對不會拿掉答對了嘛我之所以說你不會說謊我不認為你說謊因為這條絕對不會拿掉嘛可是你今天防禦心態重我問你這一條你直接講這一條拿掉了我跟部長說今天齁雖然說國會改革法案已經通過因為還沒生效齁裡面有所謂說謊官員罪但這一罪我這邊直接做示範辦不到你你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼辦不到你因為我不認為你說謊"},{"start":145.967,"end":165.196,"text":"因為我認為我講這個條文你可能理解錯誤昨天主席也講理解錯誤理解錯誤不算說謊我接受不可能拿掉我不認為你說謊我幫你辯護欸部長謝謝委員對可是我告訴你啊部長請問是你理解錯誤還是我被你打臉啊昨天"},{"start":167.537,"end":185.414,"text":"昨天我們就是就法條的內容抱歉喔雖然我很體諒我昨天也沒有要幹什麼你有沒有發現你問你的幕僚來跟我解釋我就接受當然說那我接受部長可能就是跟我講的法條理解到別的地方去我接受這個說法我接受這個說法可是抱歉明天"},{"start":187.005,"end":215.135,"text":"那個綠營的側翼可不是這麼看啊到處做影片開始說我被你打臉請問我被你打臉了嗎有沒有我們在再做一個釐清嘛對嘛就在那邊做釐清嘛我只問你部長我被你打臉了嗎還是昨天你的溝通過程當中你對我講的法條你有誤解可能我們是對那個是不是概括授權第二條的我就跟你講我沒有講概括授權嘛我講的是第一條第一項我才講第一項你就跟我講拿掉了"},{"start":216.598,"end":244.838,"text":"你就講拿掉啦我沒有講到蓋花授權的問題啊我講第一項你就講拿掉啦昨天影片很清楚喔所以抱歉部長我告訴你我已經也採取法律行動了因為我沒辦法容許今天這麼明顯的一個狀況還要去在網路上造謠扭曲那個側衣粉專也把這個相關的這個文章把它撤下來但是我今天要跟部長講本來昨天說的我也接受剛剛我們的那個主席的說法說我昨天沒有說什麼事喔"},{"start":245.658,"end":269.158,"text":"可是抱歉我今天必須鄭重的澄清我還是說一句話部長以後我們在這個詢答的過程當中請你聽仔細我的問題好不好我沒有問的問題你不要馬上跳出來先做超越性的回答第二個我要針對今天我們通保法還是包括昨天柯真法裡面我有很多的問題要請教一下部長首先我想請教您"},{"start":271.291,"end":283.452,"text":"你知道過去我們發生很多的大案包括說高洪安案對不對包括這個楊文科案或林芝妙案都發生一件事情就是"},{"start":284.707,"end":306.343,"text":"在檢察官開始去偵辦的過程當中,欸奇怪啊,進週刊通通都知道所有案情。所以很多人質疑你的偵查不公開沒有落實。可是部長我有問過,我有問前面蔡清祥部長這個問題啊。他就說這個東西難以激考,因為不能保證是檢察官或法務部洩漏的。你是持同樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":308.348,"end":328.839,"text":"這個媒體的來源我們並不清楚非常好告訴你總而言之偵查不公開連我自己都曾經遇過我曾經因為這個一個洩密案我被當證人約談檢察官當場跟我講說羅先生因為這個偵查不公開你出去不要對外講齁結果一出去之後媒體全部都報導出來了"},{"start":330.575,"end":358.09,"text":"那當然法務部可以說這個跟法務部沒關但是實際上偵查部公開淪為一紙虛文甚至變成是今天拿來做所謂帶風向的工具以及是大家招招攬的事實那我想問你知道這跟今天我們的不管是科偵法跟所謂的通保法有什麼關聯性我想要請教一下第一個對通信記錄的部分我認同法務部說的它侵害性較小你知道為什麼認同通信記錄侵害性較小呢"},{"start":358.47,"end":372.993,"text":"所以可以給予比較多的所謂的你的所謂的授權一般性的授權或是最最多到所謂的事後或是檢察官保留你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼通訊紀錄這一部分我覺得相對來講侵害比較小為什麼因為現在沒什麼在打電話了啦大家談什麼事情都用什麼東西談剛剛前面林士明委員講的用什麼東西談"},{"start":382.677,"end":397.832,"text":"部長你現在溝通還用電話溝通嗎?對嘛所以換言之通訊紀錄這個部分確實如你所說因為時代變遷的問題它的侵犯性較小但是抱歉網路足跡我不認為喔"},{"start":399.386,"end":425.908,"text":"網路主席我只問你一件事情網路主席今天你調查到比方舉個例子賴清德總統如果說他很喜歡勞力士表他到購物網站去看勞力士表就被你們開始要去收集所謂的這個賴清德不一定是那位總統賴清德我只舉個名字而已或是這位賴清德有一位賴清德他的主錯想要信託他答應主錯要信託結果主錯沒有信託跳票了他到法律網站去諮詢"},{"start":427.929,"end":454.204,"text":"這個網路的足跡如果一旦被列為你們要偵查的對象的話這網路足跡看不看得到?看不看得到?網路足跡我們在第三條之一看不看得到嗎?我只問你看不看得到嗎?這個這個有內容的問題我們這個沒有內容的問題你們可以查他去哪個網站我沒講內容啦那你可以查哪個當事人嘛都不能查那請問你到底查什麼?你到底查什麼?"},{"start":455.697,"end":482.193,"text":"我們就是從裡面我們不會知道網址我們知道就譬如說他的IPIP位置但是我們不知道網址你說IP位置不能查不能做後續偵查那個是我們查的IP是可以嘛但是我們可以啊你就講可以啊IP不能查我要跟你講是後續作為要不要啟動的問題嘛對不對前端作為你要做你收集IP但後續作為你要不要做進一步的是進一步的問題嘛對不對"},{"start":483.775,"end":497.493,"text":"對 這個是王國王子我跟你講 所以部長我時間真的有限你每次在這種細節的地方要跟我帶到外太空去我也質詢不完可是我回頭要講一件事情我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王逸川"},{"start":499.892,"end":526.837,"text":"你當然講不可能阿你會不會那我這樣問你齁你會違法偵查公開你會不會我跟你講我跟你講你當然說不會嘛就像說你會偵查不公開你也跟我保證你保證你們做所有偵查案件你們會做到偵查不公開嘛對不對對嘛可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件只要重大案件"},{"start":527.757,"end":545.799,"text":"就周刊馬上報導出啊我告訴你到現在為止只有法務部還在下壓他認為你的偵查公開做得很好偵查不公開做得很好我當然知道你的辯解我講的是結果論不是講你今天主觀論你主觀論認為偵查不公開做得很好但是仿在現在現實上"},{"start":547.642,"end":574.265,"text":"每個重大案件都這麼巧通通都偵查公開了也許不是法務部也許警政署也許是別的人我不知道啊但是我看到這件普遍性現象我只問一件事情你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王逸川抱歉我只能盲目的相信你欸因為我很信任部長欸可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題是什麼我今天堅持就今天立法院法治局講的"},{"start":575.663,"end":595.874,"text":"你今天如果事前你跟我講不知道昨天的我們講這個所謂的科偵的一個作為GPS的作為說他事前法官能力不夠檢察官能力不夠沒辦法法官保留沒辦法相對法官保留沒辦法檢察官保留我非得要辦案我一定要有效率一定要及時抓到人好啦為了打詐但其實這部法不只是規範打詐沒錯吧"},{"start":598.387,"end":611.586,"text":"打詐只是其中之一嘛最重要之一也是你的主觀評價但是要牽連到所有的犯罪類型全部都有沒有關係我跟你講昨天已經講過這我不打算跟你爭論下去我要講的是什麼"},{"start":612.745,"end":637.209,"text":"我要講的是說今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講檢察官保留法官保留你是為了打仗這個目標很宏大我支持打仗可是至少你要做到一件事情你事後總要通知當事人吧報告主席這個問題因為前面我先做很多澄清你事後總要通知當事人吧要不要"},{"start":639.431,"end":658.964,"text":"要不要我今天被科徵了我被找到GPS了事前你說打詐的一個一個所謂戰隊征防的速率效率我們那個監聽就有通知當事人嗎那這個也可以有一到有沒有嘛現在有沒有規範嘛那個監聽這麼速那個我監聽而已啊我講的是科徵我講的是GPS我講的是通訊記錄我講的是"},{"start":661.286,"end":673.794,"text":"今天網路的紀錄我講的是二十四小時內你不要跟我跳跳跳跳概念我講的是二十四小時內沒有法官保留欸你還是說你二十四小時內是法官保留是嗎"},{"start":676.315,"end":698.556,"text":"當然不是嘛所以部長真的說真的齁你今天昨天為什麼出這個狀況就是我問A你要跳到B回答才會造成昨天的情況我沒有認為你說謊但是你的答詢模式我認為大有問題最後我還要再強調一件事情你事前說你今天為了犯罪增防的效率齁我跟你講說真的這帽子很大啦我也不知道怎麼跟你講啦"},{"start":699.844,"end":721.031,"text":"但是人權保障的部分你至少事後要做到你可以答應我今天不管是GPS只要被調到的人只要是今天通訊監察被所謂的通訊記錄跟網路記錄被調到的人你案件偵辦結束之後發個通知書跟他講說你被柯真了你被通聯記錄了你被網路記錄了你做不做得到做不到修法"},{"start":724.912,"end":737.165,"text":"真的啊事後你不要跟我講人力不足喔事後人力不足變成藉口事前是因為犯罪征訪我給你這個空間但事後連這個都不做我跟你講就是偷懶兩個字以上謝謝接下來請"}]}}}}